Who's the league trying to protect by taking time-of-possession off NBA.com?

[PickernRoller]

The league has received the orders from Top Man and has removed the time-of-possession stat off NBA.com.

As you all know, this stat has gained a lot of notoriety lately as it has become an effective tool to dispel myths and disbeliefs about a certain NBA project, regarding a certain NBA player that shall not be named going for longer than a decade. I think everyone is right to assume that the league has noticed the chattering and wants to stop the movement before it catches more of the mainstream. Thus, in true tyrannical fashion, they have axed the stat for enthusiast and thus hampering further true analytical analysis - not the talk-show crap the sheep get on TV.

Post in this thread if you're worried about the truth.

[Gileraracer]

Damn, this guy is 100% manufactured.

[PickernRoller]

Damn, this guy is 100% manufactured.

Protecting the product has gone too far.

[bigkingsfan]

Why is the nba trying to protect James Harden

[Prometheus]

what

[Spurs m8]

I just laugh, i dont even get mad.

Both the league and the Roid Muncher are about as real as WWE

[Mr. Jabbar]

the poll is pretty close between:

Lebron James (aka The False King aka LeChoke)
and
Mr.3/9 (aka Mr.1/9 adjusted to bailout shots)


who will win!?

[OldSchoolBBall]

What did this stat show before it was removed? Anyone have a record of it? Did it do historical data too or only this season?

[Real14]

Why is the nba trying to protect James Harden
Cuz they want a new queen james.

[Ainosterhaspie]

What did this stat show before it was removed? Anyone have a record of it? Did it do historical data too or only this season?
Went back to 2014. Not enough time to draw any meaningful conclusions. Didn't stop people from running on with crackpot theories.

[superduper]

Went back to 2014. Not enough time to draw any meaningful conclusions. Didn't stop people from running on with crackpot theories.

It showed how long a player held the ball. It was essentially what everyone thinks "Usage" is.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Went back to 2014. Not enough time to draw any meaningful conclusions. Didn't stop people from running on with crackpot theories.

Thanks. Anyone know who the leaders were from '14-present before they removed it?

[3ball]

Thanks. Anyone know who the leaders were from '14-present before they removed it?
Wall and Westbrook were usually the leaders at about 8 - 9 min per game

Lebron ranked between 8-20 depending on the year (5.0 - 6.5 min), with all other players in the top 25 being starting pg's.... except harden, who played PG from the 2-spot for a couple years.. in the last couple years, he's up there with wall/westbrook at 8-9 min, after being around 6 min like lebron for a couple years (as the only 2 non-pg's in the top 25)

But the playoffs is where lebron exerts his full ability to dominate the ball, increasing his time to the 8-9 minute mark, which increased to 11-12 minutes in the 15' and 18' Finals, or 30-50% higher than regular season leaders wall/westbrook.. it's hard to imagine this not being the most anyone's ever dominated the ball

[ImKobe]

Time of possession is a fundamental stat.. In Lebron's case, his abnormally-high time of possession for a forward doesn't get the most out of other facilitators/ball-handlers

and having a 2nd guy with point guard ball-time gives teammates less time/assists than they have in 1-PG lineups, ultimately leading to low team assists..

His low team assist style is a big deal, since the only common thread in his last 4 Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists (good defense was played in 15')

But even without the time of possession stat, it's easy to prove lebron lowers a team's assist capacity because he has a low assisted rate like all PG's - PG's don't get assisted much because they use live dribbles and score their own.. So lebron's abnormally-high, PG ball-dominance turns a normally high assisted position (forward) into a low-assisted one (PG), which lowers the assist capacity of the team.

Ultimately, his weaker championship record didn't reflect lack of personal or supporting talent, but an approach to the game that didn't yield the best offenses, brand of ball, and teams of his era.. this causes all the underdog talk, and subsequent attempts to change the goat criteria away from winning, into losing but "carrying"

Great post.

Everyone around him is reduced to a play finisher, which is why his teams have to be built a certain way for them to win. The only time he was willing to give up his ball-dominant ways was in Miami. Wade & Riles got him to play off-ball more and they had an ATG season in 2013 & it's why they beat the Spurs (although Ray Allen bailed his sorry ass out).

We love to call Kobe & Jordan "chuckers", but those guys didn't hold the ball nearly as much as Lebron or Harden or Westbrook. It's why Kobe and Jordan had more TEAM success, as they were more willing TEAM players. Lebron was a team player in Miami, which is why they had that kind of success in the Finals. The difference there was that his stats weren't all that inflated, he was willing to sacrifice his own stats for the betterment of the team.

People like to use assists as an argument as to why Lebron or someone else is more of a team player than Kobe/MJ, but Kobe/MJ sacrificed his numbers all his career to play in a winning system.

[zeerghit]

they have plenty of time without lebron now, and what is happening?

[3ball]

Time of possession is a fundamental stat..

In Lebron's case, his low-assist teams result from him being a 2nd player on the floor with PG-level time of possession, which reduced teammates' time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups.

Lebron's PG-level ball-dominance has ultimately prevented him from playing to the strength of other facilitators or fitting into a system, by mixing in sufficient off-ball play into his game.

His low team assist style matters, since the only common thread in his last 4 Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists (good defense was played in 15', and both teams played poor defense in 17' & 18')

But even without the time of possession stat, it's easy to prove lebron lowers a team's assist capacity because he has a low assisted rate like all PG's - PG's don't get assisted much because they use live dribbles and score their own.. So lebron's PG ball-dominance turns a normally high assisted position (forward) into a low-assisted one (PG), which lowers the assist capacity of the team.

Ultimately, his weaker championship record didn't reflect lack of personal or supporting talent, but an approach to the game that didn't yield the best offenses, brand of ball, and teams of his era.. this causes all the underdog talk, and subsequent attempts to change the goat criteria away from winning, into losing but "carrying" a team
.

[3ball]

We love to call Kobe & Jordan "chuckers", but those guys didn't hold the ball nearly as much as Lebron or Harden or Westbrook. It's why Kobe and Jordan had more TEAM success, as they were more willing TEAM players. Lebron was a team player in Miami, which is why they had that kind of success in the Finals. The difference there was that his stats weren't all that inflated, he was willing to sacrifice his own stats for the betterment of the team.

People like to use assists as an argument as to why Lebron or someone else is more of a team player than Kobe/MJ, but Kobe/MJ sacrificed his numbers all his career to play in a winning system

.
Spot on





Everyone around him is reduced to a play finisher, which is why his teams have to be built a certain way for them to win. The only time he was willing to give up his ball-dominant ways was in Miami. Wade & Riles got him to play off-ball more and they had an ATG season in 2013 & it's why they beat the Spurs (although Ray Allen bailed his sorry ass out).


They beat the Spurs because they were favored, due to fielding one of the most heralded casts of all-time.

Lebron played a little off-ball in 13', but he still played a lot of PG and they still had 2-PG approach - this is why that team only achieved the 62nd all-time offense (their best in the 4-year run), which a massive underachievement for one of the most stacked casts ever and 4 offensive-minded HOF's

(We have/had the stats for 14', where chalmers held the ball for 4.7 min and lebron 5.2, both PG-level)

This is why I say that his weaker championship record didn't reflect lack of personal or supporting talent, but an approach to the game that didn't yield the best offenses, brand of ball, and teams of his era.. this causes all the underdog talk, and subsequent attempts to change the goat criteria away from winning, into losing but "carrying" a team

[Real14]

they have plenty of time without lebron now, and what is happening?
Poor Lebitch. His Trangessions are really catching up to him and he have to suffer more.

[zeerghit]

Poor Lebitch. His Trangessions are really catching up to him and he have to suffer more.
ur arguments are done, that EYETEST sh*t is done and its been proved this year 2times already, lets look and cavs and lets look at lakers without him.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Like in said, crackpot theories about time of possession by people who don't watch and/or don't understand the game.

LeBron has a higher time of possession than other forwards because (spoiler alert) he's much more talented than other forwards and can take over playmaking duties much better than they can.

His time of possessions doesn't allow an offensive system. Wrong the lack of a functional offensive system is due to lousy coaching and talent prevents an offensive system. LeBron can fill a variety of roles in an offensive system such as the Draymond role in Golden State's system and the Parker role in the Spurs system, the only two systems to beat LeBron since 2011.

LeBron can't finish plays. Wrong. He's an elite finisher. He showed that in Miami. Ty Lue is an inept moron who had no ability to implement a system. His only idea was to play faster which isn't exactly a workable system on a roster with a bunch of old guys and isn't a system even if it was workable.

The whole critique shows a lack of basic understanding of what's happening in LeBron's offense. Again, I doubt they actually watch the games. As a general rule LeBron's teams open games not trying to feature him and with him allowing the point guard to handle the offense. When the offense is off, he starts to take a heavier hand, but that is usually not the default starting point.

When he is running the offense, it is in a way that doesn't prevent a system. He generally attacks off a screen, like Parker did for the Spurs and either finishes at the basket at an elite level or makes a pass. At this point the defense is broken down and the offense can start passing and moving to capitalize. If they don't get off the shot they can get the ball back to LeBron and he can bail out the possession of necessary. This system created the highest playoff ORtg ever. It works.

Sometimes, by design LeBron dribbles for most of the shot clock leaving only enough time for him to finish or for a quick shot after his pass. Again this is by design. It is generally because they have a lead and are trying to limit possessions and opportunities for the other team to come back. That's a smart way to play, not a problem.

The other reason they've done that, as in 2015 where it was for most of the game, is because of a massive talent and depth deficit. They were able to exert some level of control over the game by grinding the pace to a crawl. The Warriors were deep, the Cavs weren't. They ran out of gas trying to run up and down the floor. They also had a problem with the guards being unable to handle defensive pressure, so even when they tried to go away from LeBron it was a disaster. This isn't because LeBron messed up development either. These guys were supposed to be limited use backups, but were thrust into greater roles beyond their talents because of injury. Take away Jordan and Kobe's second and third option and let's see how well their system does.

Magic played a similar style to LeBron and with it won five titles in a decade and went to four more finals. He dominated with a similar style, but wasn't as elite a finisher. He was a better overall passer though. Bird was similar as well and had tremendous success. There have been numerous systems over the years with main guys who have a variety of talents and varying impacts on and off ball. Systems have flourished with these divers talents and nothing about James' game prevents a flourishing system.

The whole argument makes no sense. James is very good to elite in almost every offensive area: passing, scoring, playmaking, ball handling. How can being able to do everything be a bar to a successful system? You can just plug him into any gap that needs filling and he'll do an excellent job.

What critics stubbornly refuse to see is the two obvious reasons for lack of a functional system beyond "LeBron Ball": (1) no coaching and (2) inadequate roster talent. Time and again when James is gone, the talent proves itself to be inadequate. We see that yet again this year. James is injured and the Lakers are in shambles. James left the Cavs and they are in shambles. James left the Heat and they were in shambles. James left the Cavs the first time, shambles. And of course we get the anti Occam's Rasor position claiming the reason all these different rosters are dumsterfires without James is that James made them bad.

The simple explanation, that they are bad because they are, well, bad can't be it. Elaborate theories are constructed to hide from the simple answer. So they can't play because the system was twisted by James. Only this year's Lakers blow up that theory because they haven't played LeBron Ball yet, and this roster isn't the handpicked spot up shooters formula, but a bunch of supposed play makers, and they are lost without James. Walton's brilliant system of "let's play fast" isn't doing squat with the system killing cancer sidelined.

But please tell me more about how a group of talentless defenders and mediocre offensive talents (Cleveland) and a group of non-shooters (LAL) and a group of hobbled should be retirees (2014 Miami) are being held back by LeBron's time with the ball.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Oh yeah, one other thing. Jordan was a uniquely talented scorer. As 3ball correctly (for once in his life) points out, scoring champs don't win titles... except Jordan. Jordan was an exceptional, uniquely talented scorer and be wrote his own formula. It's the same with LeBron, he has a unique, unprecedented skillset, so of course no one else has succeeded doing what he does. He's literally the only player ever who can do what he does best, just like Jordan was the only player ever to be able to do what he did best. You can't take a uniquely gifted guy and say he's the problem because no one else plays like him when no one has has the talent to play like him.

[3ball]

Oh yeah, one other thing. Jordan was a uniquely talented scorer. As 3ball correctly (for once in his life) points out, scoring champs don't win titles... except Jordan. Jordan was an exceptional, uniquely talented scorer and be wrote his own formula. It's the same with LeBron, he has a unique, unprecedented skillset, so of course no one else has succeeded doing what he does. He's literally the only player ever who can do what he does best, just like Jordan was the only player ever to be able to do what he did best. You can't take a uniquely gifted guy and say he's the problem because no one else plays like him when no one has has the talent to play like him.
That's fine, but lebron can't do what MJ did, which was better..

his approach resulted in the best team of his era, whereas lebron's approach cedes that to other players (curry), who play like Jordan (off-ball) and win the same superior way he did (system that gets the best out of everyone)

It's like, why wouldn't lebron want to play off-ball more like mj/curry, so he can have dominant juggernauts like they did? We know why - he lacks the skill, and must instead rely on his talent and on-ball skill to cobble together a few rings via team-hopping (still mostly losing though to curry's superior style)

[3ball]

And why are you denying the statistical reality that having a 2nd guy with point guard ball-time gives teammates less time/assists than they have in 1-PG lineups, ultimately leading to low team assists??

Lebron's teams DO have low assists and his teammates DO have lower time and assists in his 2-PG lineups

And again, even though this can still win a ring once in a while if you have enough supporting talent, it doesn't compare to MJ's off-ball/system approach, which yielded far superior teams, the best of his era

Ultimately, Lebron's weaker championship record didn't reflect lack of personal or supporting talent, but an approach to the game that didn't yield the best offenses, brand of ball, and teams of his era.. this causes all the underdog talk, and subsequent attempts to change the goat criteria away from winning, into losing but "carrying" a team

But even without the time of possession stat (which you're hilariously calling "crackpot", even though it's an actual stat), the "assisted" stats are mainstream and show that lebron lowers the team's assist capacity... Indeed, he has a low assisted rate like all PG's - PG's don't get assisted much because they use live dribbles and score their own.. So lebron's PG ball-dominance turns a normally high assisted position (forward) into a low-assisted one (PG), which lowers the assist capacity of the team.

[Ainosterhaspie]

That's fine, but lebron can't do what MJ did, which was better..

his approach resulted in the best team of his era, whereas lebron's approach cedes that to other players (curry), who play like Jordan (off-ball) and win the same superior way he did (system that gets the best out of everyone)

It's like, why wouldn't lebron want to play off-ball more like mj/curry, so he can have dominant juggernauts like they did? We know why - he lacks the skill, and must instead rely on his talent and on-ball skill to cobble together a few rings via team-hopping (still mostly losing though to curry's superior style)
Jordan playing off ball had nothing to do with it. You regularly point out his teammates couldn't score. In other words the system fell apart and didn't do squat, but Jordan bailed out the faltering system time and again. Same story with Curry, only he needed Durant to bail out his faltering system because he's not good enough to consistently get his own shot off reliably against the best defenses. He needs the system to really succeed.

You can't claim Jordan created better team offense when his teammates aren't scoring. He's doing all the scoring, not his teammates. What kind of logic says the team where scoring is more spread out has worse teamwork than the team where the scoring is highly concentrated in one guy? LeBron's teammates score more than Jordan's teammates, but LeBron is killing teammork and Jordan is the ultimate team player. :wtf:

As I've pointed out repeatedly, the primary problem has not been teamwork. It was the massive talent disparity in 2007, 2015 and 2018 and the lack of defensive depth 2014, 2017. The only year that argument sort of makes sense is 2011, but even there the issue was LeBron's passivity, not inabity to play a system.

[Ainosterhaspie]

And why are you denying the statistical reality that having a 2nd guy with point guard ball-time gives teammates less time/assists than they have in 1-PG lineups, ultimately leading to low team assists??

Lebron's teams DO have low assists and his teammates DO have lower time and assists in his 2-PG lineups


There's "low team assists" because the guys aren't talented passers and finishers and the coach has no clue about how to run a system beyond "play faster". On top of that Irving and Wade are iso guys so that drives down assist numbers. Both had lower team assists per 100 than James in the years before he joined them and the year after they split with James. Maybe, just maybe, the guy who is the most elite passer on the team isn't the first place to look for why the team doesn't have high assist rates.

[3ball]

Jordan playing off ball had nothing to do with it.


Your denial of the obvious, observable, and statistical fact is embarrassing to watch and it's preventing you from seeing the game as it is.. that's too bad man, but I'll try one more time

lebron is the 2nd player on the floor with PG-level time of possession - that's a fact...

This abnormal time for a forward reduces teammates' time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups - that's a fact

Lower teammate assists causes low team assist rankings that he's had his entire career.. again, all fact

Additionally, Lebron's ball-dominance has prevented him from playing to the strength of other facilitators or fitting into a system, by mixing in sufficient off-ball play into his game.





You can't claim Jordan created better team offense when his teammates aren't scoring. He's doing all the scoring, not his teammates. What kind of logic says the team where scoring is more spread out has worse teamwork than the team where the scoring is highly concentrated in one guy? LeBron's teammates score more than Jordan's teammates, but LeBron is killing teammork and Jordan is the ultimate team player. :wtf:


Wade and Kyrie scored more than pippen because they were far superior scorers - this is common knowledge... Ditto for Bosh/Love over grant/rodman

But despite scoring more, lebron's teammates weren't playing near capacity (near their career highs) while MJ's teammates were... Teamwork allowed the cast to play to capacity, while lebron-ball shuts down guys... Again, this is all common knowledge and also observable and statistical fact

Btw, how did MJ achieve goat offenses (#2, #6, and #8 all-time) with less offensive supporting talent than Lebron (#26, #46, #62 offenses)????... If not for better teamwork?... :biggums: :coleman:

Obviously, lebron's #26 to 62 offenses are at significant disadvantage versus top 5 all-time offenses (warriors), or offenses that are playing like top 5 (the 14' spurs) - it's like going into a gun fight with guns that have been reduced to squirt guns.. :oldlol:





As I've pointed out repeatedly, the primary problem has not been teamwork. It was the massive talent disparity in 2007, 2015 and 2018


The Cavs' team defense was good in 2015 and held the warriors far below their regular season ortg

It's sad though, because the warriors' offense could barely muster enough to overcome a team they were massively out-assisting and where the star was shooting 39% and playing zero D.

So clearly, the Cavs defense was sufficient and would've easily won with better offense, including a system that didn't get massively out-assisted, and much better shooting/defense from the star player.

07' and 18' are legit losses, although MJ likely wins game 1 in 2018.. he wouldn't have lost his clutch ability over JR and disappeared in OT





and the lack of defensive depth 2014, 2017.


Defensive depth??.. :biggums: ... I've never heard that one before and MJ's bulls had ZERO defensive depth with Kerr, Perdue and company coming off the bench..

but they had a great defensive culture, so the team played great D just like 2018 Boston and their #1 defense despite Kyrie... Defensive culture and system has always meant more than individual talent, unless we're talking goat bigs like Hakeem, Robinson, Dikembe, etc..

So defensive depth is one of the most false and desperate arguments you've come up with.. lebron simply can't foster a good defensive culture or system because he can't play D anymore himself, and cedes the FMVP to his man every time.. I can't even fathom calling MJ the goat if he ceded the fmvp to his man every time.. it's f.ucking amazing that lebron gets any consideration at all considering his yearly defensive embarrassments





2014, 2017.


In 2017 Finals, the warriors had the 2nd worst drtg ever (115)

Neither team played defense, so it came down to who had the better offense - once again, lebron's team got massively out-assisted, and therefore stood no chance despite boosting a healthy big three of 25 ppg-capable scorers

And lebron deserves blame for 2014 because it was an even money series where his team had equal or better talent.. but once again, his team got massively out-assisted and had vastly inferior teamwork, so they couldn't keep up





LeBron's passivity, not inability to play a system.


You just don't get it - lebron's point-guard time as a forward (6+ min) doesn't fit into any system.. that's why he's never run one in 16 seasons

the warriors system works with Dray and Durant holding the ball 2-3 minutes - lebron's 6 minutes wouldn't work.. ditto the sours, where kawhi held the ball for 2 minutes

there's no room for ball movement in lineups where 2 guys are holding the ball a PG amount... Magic and Ben Simmons work and have high-assist teams because they start at PG - they aren't a 2nd PG like lebron.. otoh, harden is like lebron - he's a 2nd PG, so his rockets rank low in assists like lebron
.

[MrFonzworth]

Luka Doncic. This one stat is the difference between a prolific superstar and a bona fide bum.

Silver found his poster boy.

[Ainosterhaspie]

What I'm talking about when I said defensive depth, and maybe that was a poor choice of words, is that their defense was not championship caliber. That 2014 Heat team's defense was a disaster in the finals. Their defensive system required intense energy which was unsustainable with their aging roster. There was a fine line between smothering teams and being totally useless.

They relied on blitzing the ball handler and rapid rotations, but after four finals runs they didnt have the energy to sustain the necessary intensity for that defense to function. The Spurs passing ate them alive and circumvented the trap they relied on to shut down plays. The system was designed that way because they didn't have a real center and teams routinely abused them inside even when their defense was working. Wade was hobbled and couldn't defend. Battier was a key defender who was useless that series. Bosh was getting eaten alive by old man Duncan. LeBron was the only starter left who could actually defend, and they didn't have a defensive specialist available off the bench to make things work on that end either.

They gave up a 120 ORtg to the Spurs that series. Jordan's best ever finals ORtg was 116. James team could have had a much better offense than any of Jordan's finals offenses and still lost that series. That's how bad the defense was. James could have scored 42 points a game (more than any Jordan finals) and still lost the series. This series was not lost because James couldn't play in a system, it was lost becuase Pop figured out their defense and they had too many tired old legs to run it right anyway.

The 2017 Warriors were the second best defense all year and the second best defense in the playoffs. LeBron's team had the best ever playoff ORtg that year so maybe that has something to do with the Warriors bad DRtg that year in the finals. The Cavs meanwhile were 21st that year in DRtg. Love and Irving are bad defenders and TT and JR weren't the same defenders they were in 2016. In sum, their defense was horrible. The Warriors had elite offense and elite defense, the Cavs just had elite offense. That was the difference in that series. More team assists doesn't fix that problem.

I don't know why you defend the Cavs defense in 2015 since I didn't blame defense for that loss. That was a matter of missing the second and third best scorers on the team. How many series did Jordan win without Pippen and one of Grant/Rodman. Zero! So get out of here with Jordan's system overcomes all. That was equivalent to when Jordan got his ass handed to him by Bird and company only James actually found a way to win games in that series.

[Ainosterhaspie]

In 2017 Irving had the ball more power minute played than James, yet James had more assists and more points than Irving. How exactly do you figure then that James giving Irving more time with the ball will lead to more assists for the team?

[3ball]

So the spurs' offense and ball movement wore out the heat legs?

Why couldn't the heat do that to the Spurs? Wade was lights out versus the pacers' #1 defense in the ecf, so every one was ready to go..

So why didn't the heat have ball movement and offense that wore out the spurs? Wouldn't tired legs have reduced the spurs' offense?

See, it's a battle to see which team can wear down the other team and control the game.. the Spurs had the ball movement to do it, and the heat didn't.. you made my point

I'll leave you for now, with this

Even Jerry west (goat talent evaluator) CLEARLY SAYS that MJ was much better for ball movement:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TfpDYxq9K3U&t=24m06s


:dancin:.... The goat talent evaluator > your delusion/denial


And a couple other responses ur points:

- We know lebron keeps the team's assist rankings low because everyone's assists decline except his...

- And Wade/Kyrie are equal or better passers to pippen, so Lebron had equal or better "passing help" than MJ.

- Finally, when you add an elite scorer like lebron, everyone's assists should go UP because there's another scorer to pass to.. The only exception are PG's, since PG's score on their own via live dribble and therefore have low assisted rates.. so by turning a normally high-assisted position (F) into a low-assisted one (PG), lebron lowers the assist capacity of the team.. that's why lebron's team's assists remained low despite the addition of a great scorer/passer

Often times, the team had 15 assists, but lebron has 10 of them... :roll: .. how can that system compete with a ball movement system???... :oldlol:

[Ainosterhaspie]

Additionally, Lebron's ball-dominance has prevented him from playing to the strength of other facilitators or fitting into a system, by mixing in sufficient off-ball play into his game.

The strengths of other facilitators? He hasn't had other strong facilitators to prevent from playing to their strengths. And he hasn't had a coach with the vision and skill to implement a quality system. You do understand that a system has to exist or be envisioned before James can play within it right? Again Irving and Wade's primary strength is Iso scoring. James giving them more time with the ball doesn't fix the low assist issue, if anything it would exacerbate it.

James has the ability to play a Pippen role, a Magic role, a Green role and a Parker role. There is system after stytem that has had success where James could fit and play the role of key guys in that system. The lack of system on his teams is because of other factors, not because of James.

[PP34Deuce]

Lebron is a safety valve for teams and coaches. It's a gift and curse. These arguments scream when the NFL fans of Peyton and Tom Brady constantly bickered over GOAT QB and their circumstances.

Lebron for good or bad plays unique in that he is an elite scorer (27+PPG) and playmaker at the same time while providing size not quite shown at the SF position.

Lebron does it all because he likes to and he sometimes he has to. He can play more roles. psychology has shown Jordan hardcore stans favor certain traits. Notice they like:

Kyrie
Jordan
Iverson
Bird
Westbrook

and they typically hate players like KD, Bron, Shaq, Harden

A lot of it is relating to players and those that don't rock the boat.

But keep making Lebron bashing threads. You're actually contributing to the machine. For every 2-3 bad plays we can laugh at with Bron, there are 10-12 jaw dropping videos that make you forget about 2011, and other blunders.

[Ainosterhaspie]

The Spurs had young perimeter defenders who were very good or elite in Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard. The Heat had old guys and mediocre defenders on the perimeter. With their youth, the Spurs were better equipped for more energy output on the perimeter. But they didn't need it because the Spurs also had better interior defenders starting with Duncan. Yes even old Duncan was a better interior defender by far than any Heat interior defender. The Heat's interior defense was suspect the whole four years.

Because they had better interior defenders, the Spurs could run a different defensive system that wasn't as reliant on intense energy outbursts which were required by the Heat's defensive system. Their perimeter defenders didn't have to expend as much energy in their defensive system as the Heat needed to expend in their very different defensive system. In prior years the Heat could dial up their defensive intensity and suffocate opposing offenses. They no longer had that gear by the time of the 2014 finals. That is by far the most significant factor in that loss.

The Pacers that year were 23rd in ORtg in the regular season. They were anything but offensive juggernauts, yet they managed a 110 ORtg (up 6 points) against the Heat. That Heat defense was running on fumes, and no longer effective even against bad offenses, much less an elite offense like the Spurs had.

[3ball]

The Spurs had young perimeter defenders who were very good or elite The Heat had old guys and mediocre defenders on the perimeter. With their youth, the Spurs were better equipped for more energy output on the perimeter. But they didn't need it because the Spurs also had better interior defenders starting with Duncan. Yes even old Duncan was a better interior defender by far than any Heat interior defender. The Heat's interior defense was suspect the whole four years.

Because they had better interior defenders, the Spurs could run a different defensive system that wasn't as reliant on intense energy outbursts which were required by the Heat's defensive system. Their perimeter defenders didn't have to expend as much energy in their defensive system as the Heat needed to expend in their very different defensive system. In prior years the Heat could dial up their defensive intensity and suffocate opposing offenses. They no longer had that gear by the time of the 2014 finals. That is by far the most significant factor in that loss.


Lebron was 29 and matched kawhi as a young defender, so don't tell me Danny Green was the difference

And the Spurs' defensive anchor/franchise player was 37 years old and Ginobili was 36!!.. both much older than wade's 32, and the Heat had 30-year Bosh's elite pnr D as well... Age simply isn't an excuse...

But I'm glad you responded to me itt because together we've figured something out..... you said the Spurs' ball movement wore down the Heat defenders - so voila, there it is... Tired legs don't shoot as well - the Spurs' ball movement wore down the heat on both ends, while lebron-ball didn't wear down the Spurs in return... So the Spurs were fresh as a daisies and began controlling the series more and more, with increasing confidence

Indeed, it's hard to achieve a great team ortg on tired legs from defending the opponent's onslaught.. so a team needs to have their own onslaught to wear down the opponent / weaken their attack.. ultimately, the Spurs brand of ball movement won the attrition battle, and dominated prime lebron and his super-team... So cheers to you for figuring this out with me itt.. :cheers:.. and I think the attrition battle is all part of "controlling pace" - it isn't just pace - it's control of the game.

this happens in all of lebron's losses - lebron-ball doesn't wear the opponent down as much, so they're fresher on offense and play above their normal capability... And this happened with the cavs-raptors in 2018 btw - the raptors offense was shit and didn't make the Cavs work, so the Cavs were fresh as daisies and ran roughshod with 127 ortg
.

[Jacks3]

LeBron has literally never played on a #1 ranked offense. lol @ anybody who thinks he has any sort of argument for offensive GOAT.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I said the Heat were worn out because they were old, injured and were on their fourth straight finals run. There's a reason no team had managed that since Russell's Celtics. It breaks you down. On top of that, their defensive scheme required tons of energy to work against any offense, not just a high motion offense. A high energy defensive scheme being played by tired old injured players is asking to get picked apart. A different defensive scheme wouldn't be as vulnerable.

Wade and Battier were two key peremiter defenders who no longer could get the job done effectively. Chalmers was always a mess as a defender. Cole wasn't any better. Allen was ancient and couldn't defend. Neither could Jones. Notice a pattern here. They didn't have any quality peremiter defenders besides James who they also needed as an interior defender because they didn't have any good interior defenders either. Bosh was ok, but wasn't a banger. Everywhere you looked there were gaping defensive holes.

The Spurs had multiple young high energy and stamina defenders, the Heat didn't. The Spurs had quality interior defenders, the Heat didn't. The Spurs defensive scheme didn't require as much energy as the Heat's scheme. That's a lot of things favoring the Spurs defense over the Heat's.

And yes, when the Heat double the ball you make a pass and force them to scramble to recover. Guess what? James does the same thing when he gets doubled. He moves the ball. That's basic stuff and he doesn't have a deficiency there as you seem to think.

In fact teams rarely try to double James because he is such a good passer and will pick them apart if they do. The Spurs weren't running the same sort of defensive scheme as the Heat, so they didn't have the same sorts of vulnerabilities on that end. They didn't double the ball handler nearly as much as the Heat and because of that weren't as vulnerable to a pass out of the double.

[3ball]

Oh yeah, one other thing. Jordan was a uniquely talented scorer. As 3ball correctly (for once in his life) points out, scoring champs don't win titles... except Jordan. Jordan was an exceptional, uniquely talented scorer and be Jordan wrote his own formula. It's the same with LeBron,


If each guy had a formula, MJ's equaled 6 organic rings in 15 seasons (40% win rate), and lebron's equaled 3 team-hopped rings in 16 seasons (19%)

And MJ's formula equaled great teamwork and high team assists, while lebron's formula equals weaker teamwork and low team assists





The strengths of other facilitators? He hasn't had other strong facilitators to prevent from playing to their strengths.


Wade/Kyrie play similar to lebron as premium playmaker-scorers, whereas pippen is more known for defense than the offensive wizardry of wade/kyrie/lebron

So any notion that lebron lacked playmaking help is nonsense and amazing that lebron could ever ask for more like he did in 17'.. why does he need an extra playmaker in addition to kyrie/wade, while MJ only got pippen?





And he hasn't had a coach with the vision and skill to implement a quality system.


Lebron calls his own plays - he's rejected coaching from every coach he's ever had - it's standard... So how do we know if one of the many coaches had something if he's rejected everyone?.. offenses take time to implement and execute well - but lebron has dismissed them and run lebron-ball instead.. I was going to post a quote or article to support this, but there's too many - dozens and dozens of articles about lebron clashing with every coach he's ever had

Heck, why isn't Luke running the warriors' system?? Obviously, it doesn't work with lebron... And how could it - how could lebron's 6 minutes of PG ball-time will fit into the warriors' offense, when the offense only allows 2-3 minutes from Durant and Draymond (with 5 minutes for PG Curry)..

Draymond would obviously be the sacrificial lamb on a lebron-led warriors - the Warriors wouldn't be nearly as goodand you'd have to formulate another excuse for why the team is struggling..... declining from favorite to typical lebron underdog team w/ shit teamwork

Again, Jerry West said that Lebron isn't as good for ball movement (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TfpDYxq9K3U&t=24m06s), and every stat backs up his eye test, i.e team assists, teammate assists, assisted rates, and time of possession.





You do understand that a system has to exist or be envisioned before James can play within it right? Again Irving and Wade's primary strength is Iso scoring. James giving them more time with the ball doesn't fix the low assist issue, if anything it would exacerbate it.


You're missing it - lebron wouldn't give ANY time back to Chalmers/Kyrie - they already have PG-level time just like lebron does (2 PG team)...

Lebron would be giving time to Bosh, Love, Ingram, Kuz, Jamison, Hughes, you name it... Rayray... their collective increase in ball-time, assists and points would increase the team in those areas

It's called a dynasty son.. that's what lebron would've had if he did that.. and those guys would be passing to lebron anyway, just like the Bulls passed to the play-finishing Jordan.. Jordan controlled the game MORE by finishing as many possessions as he needed to, and only dominating the ball when appropriate or bailouts





James has the ability to play a Pippen role, a Magic role, a Green role and a Parker role. There is system after stytem that has had success where James could fit and play the role of key guys in that system. The lack of system on his teams is because of other factors, not because of James

.
Draymond held ball for 2.5 minutes - his ball-handling is occasional and he doesn't run many screen-rolls - so stop saying lebron could play that role with his 6 minutes - ur lying over and over

Pippen was similar to draymond, as was MJ - the triangle had no pg - so not even curry's 5 minutes.. there's no way lebron could fit in the no-dribble triangle

And magic and Parker started at PG, so their ball-dominance wasn't abnormal or a 2nd PG... So they didn't create a 2 PG lineup that reduced everyone's time and assists




don't know why you defend the Cavs defense in 2015



The Cavs' team defense held the warriors far below their normal ortg

As a result of this defense, the warriors' offense could barely produce enough to beat an opponent they were massively out-assisting, where the star shot 39% with zero D.

So clearly, the Cavs defense was sufficient and would've easily won with better offense, including a system that didn't get massively out-assisted, and much better shooting/defense from the star player... :confusedshrug:





since I didn't blame defense for that loss. That was a matter of missing the second and third best scorers on the team. How many series did Jordan win without Pippen and one of Grant/Rodman. Zero! So get out of here with Jordan's system overcomes all. That was equivalent to when Jordan got his ass handed to him by Bird and company only James actually found a way to win games in that series


Jordan's never

1) shot 39% or less than stellar against single coverage
2) let his man take over the series
3) had his team get massively out-assisted by the opponent


Had jordan faced the weak comp lebron faced to make the Finals, he would've won the 15' Finals with his better scoring, teamwork, and defense

Unfortunately, the champion was always in jordan's conference until became the champion through teamwork (they had less talent then the Pistons 3x all-stars at every starting spot)
.

[r0drig0lac]

both http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/confusedshrug.gif

[PickernRoller]

Really close... but consensus is clear.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I said this:


I don't know why you defend the Cavs defense in 2015 since I didn't blame defense for that loss.

You take it out of context and quote it like this this:



I don't know why you defend the Cavs defense in 2015

So you can make this argument even though I explicitly stated defense wasn't the issue I was focused on:


The Cavs' team defense held the warriors far below their normal ortg

As a result of this defense, the warriors' offense could barely produce enough to beat an opponent they were massively out-assisting, where the star shot 39% with zero D.

So clearly, the Cavs defense was sufficient and would've easily won with better offense, including a system that didn't get massively out-assisted, and much better shooting/defense from the star player... :confusedshrug:

You're attacking a straw man. The issue was the massive talent advantage the Warriors had since most of the time they had four of the five best players on the court. But fine if you insist on bringing defense into it, let's talk about the defense.

In the last three games, all won by the Warriors, the the Warriors ORtg was an average 113.4, that is higher than their regular season ORtg which was 111.6. So while the Cavs defense started strong, it didn't finish well. So there you go. Defense was a problem. I wasn't going to argue that, but you insisted and it blew up in your face.

What changed on defense after game 3? Dellavadova had severe cramps after game three and was never the same after that. Up to that pint he was doing a decent job keeping Curry in check and being a gritty disruptive force on defense.

Not only that, the Warriors started using their small ball lineup heavily which made Mosgov a liability on the defensive end. That really changed the series. Mosgov was their second best offensive option and best rim protector, but he became an overall liability whenever the Warriors went to their small ball lineup. The already thin lineup now had another starter who they couldn't rely on for positive impact.

Now if you actually watched the games and were capable of understanding the ebbs and flows and adjustments from game to game, you wouldn't be wasting everyone's time with crackpot theories that the series was lost because James can't play in a system. But you are incapable of understanding the game beyond scraping the surface, and apparently don't watch the games, so we get the garbage you're spewing forth here.

[Ainosterhaspie]

]Unfortunately, the champion was always in jordan's conference[/B] until became the champion through teamwork (they had less talent then the Pistons 3x all-stars at every starting spot)
.
Wrong in 85, 87 and 88 and he didn't lose to the EC Champions in 84 either.

[3ball]

Wrong in 85, 87 and 88 and he didn't lose to the EC Champions in 84 either.
Either Detroit and/or the Celtics were championship-caliber in their prime while mj was coming up in the East from 85-90'

Lebron had that too in 06' (pistons with Wallace) and 08' (healthy Celts), but not every year (07', 09', 10', 11-18')

That's why people say lebron got free trips to the Finals - MJ had to overcome champs in his conference every year until he became the champion, while lebron couldn't become champ and team-hopped to become champ

[Hey Yo]

3ball


Wade/Kyrie play similar to lebron as premium playmaker-scorers,
LOL @ calling Kyrie a "premium playmaker for others" before James got there.

Nov. 6th, 2014
The exchange (between LeBron and Kyrie) after the loss to Portland came as Irving went 3-for-17 and didn't record an assist in the second half.

"There's a lot of bad habits, a lot of bad habits been built up the past couple years," James said to the media moments after the exchange. "When you play that style of basketball, it takes a lot to get it up out of you."

"The Cavs offense has been far from perfect and even far from good this year. Less than 24 hours after the exchange between James and Irving, Cleveland fell to 1-3 on the season as Gordon Hayward's last-second shot pushed the Utah Jazz to a win. Irving didn't record an assist in the 102-100 loss to the Jazz, but he did score 34 points on 12-for-23 shooting. The Cavs point guard has taken 36 shots since his last assist.

"As a team, Cleveland recorded a franchise-low six assists in Utah, perhaps the most glaring sign that it has much work ahead in rectifying its offensive woes.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/11/6/7169023/lebron-james-critical-of-kyrie-irvings-play

[Hey Yo]

Either Detroit and/or the Celtics were championship-caliber in their prime while mj was coming up in the East from 85-90'

Lebron had that too in 06' (pistons with Wallace) and 08' (healthy Celts), but not every year (07', 09', 10', 11-18')

That's why people say lebron got free trips to the Finals - MJ had to overcome champs in his conference every year until he became the champion, while lebron couldn't become champ and team-hopped to become champ
MJ was getting multiple lottery picks every year while LeBron got 2 after his first 2 seasons who turned out to be garbage (plus Boozer leaving)

[3ball]

I said this:


You take it out of context and quote it like this this:

So you can make this argument even though I explicitly stated defense wasn't the issue I was focused on:

You're attacking a straw man. The issue was the massive talent advantage the Warriors had since most of the time they had four of the five best players on the court. But fine if you insist on bringing defense into it, let's talk about the defense.

In the last three games, all won by the Warriors, the the Warriors ORtg was an average 113.4, that is higher than their regular season ORtg which was 111.6. So while the Cavs defense started strong, it didn't finish well. So there you go. Defense was a problem. I wasn't going to argue that, but you insisted and it blew up in your face.

What changed on defense after game 3? Dellavadova had severe cramps after game three and was never the same after that. Up to that pint he was doing a decent job keeping Curry in check and being a gritty disruptive force on defense.

Not only that, the Warriors started using their small ball lineup heavily which made Mosgov a liability on the defensive end. That really changed the series. Mosgov was their second best offensive option and best rim protector, but he became an overall liability whenever the Warriors went to their small ball lineup. The already thin lineup now had another starter who they couldn't rely on for positive impact.

Now if you actually watched the games and were capable of understanding the ebbs and flows and adjustments from game to game, you wouldn't be wasting everyone's time with crackpot theories that the series was lost because James can't play in a system. But you are incapable of understanding the game beyond scraping the surface, and apparently don't watch the games, so we get the garbage you're spewing forth here.
Right.. it's always the other team's brand of high assist basketball that ends up getting the upper hand and winning the last 3 games, just like virtually all of Lebron's Finals losses (07, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18)..

So quit the excuses - the opponent's championship brand of frantic ball movement wears lebron's team down more than the plodding lebron-ball wears them down, so it's lebron's team that usually ends up without the legs to defend, achieve their best offense, or control the game

And I know the media said lebron deserved mvp, but they're wrong, as they frequently are.. Iggy got MVP in large part for causing lebron to iverson-throw-up all over the court.. so lebron can't also have played like an MVP. It can't be both.

lebron's efg was worse than his combined teammates', and the reason the Warriors' allowed his repeated isolations was because he was shooting so bad - the Warriors were benefitting every possession that lebron played his low efficiency, iso game with low team assists and ball movement..

it was a garbage way to play, but it still nearly worked because the pre-durant warriors themselves weren't dominant on the championship level

And you didn't answer why MJ achieved top 2 all-time offenses with less offensive help than lebron, while lebron's teams peaked at 62nd (heatles) and 26th and 46th (Cavs).. (obviously it's teamwork).. finally, you didn't respond to the goat talent evaluator (west) corroborating (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TfpDYxq9K3U&t=24m06s) all this by saying MJ was better for ball movement than lebron
.

[Hey Yo]

LeBron shoots 39.8% in the 2015 Finals..... 3ball calls it 39%

Jordan shoots 41.5% in the '96 Finals..... he calls it 42%

As usual, round up for MJ and round down for LeBron.... clear case of being shook AF....

[3ball]

LeBron shoots 39.8% in the 2015 Finals..... 3ball calls it 39%

Jordan shoots 41.5% in the '96 Finals..... he calls it 42%

As usual, round up for MJ and round down for LeBron.... clear case of being shook AF....
Team assists in Finals


96' CHI:. 130
96' SEA:. 101

15' GSW:. 138
15' CLE:.M 95

Maybe that's why MJ wins regardless of stats, in addition to goat defense, rather than allowing a bench player to become mvp

[Hey Yo]

Team assists in Finals


96' CHI:. 130
96' SEA:. 101

15' GSW:. 138
15' CLE:.M 95

Maybe that's why MJ wins regardless of stats, in addition to goat defense, rather than allowing a bench player to become mvp
Bulls team Offensive rebounds-101.... Seattle-63. When you have 40 more chances for an assist, you're going to have more team assists than your opponent.

Healthy GS with the top two 3pt shooters in the league getting more team assists than the Cavs who were missing their 2nd and 3rd options????

How could that be????????? :cletus: derp derp


Tell us how you came to the conclusion that Kyrie was premier playmaker while with the Cavs

[Hey Yo]

About your claim and explanation that Kyrie was a premier playmaker for the Cavs...


https://media.giphy.com/media/joGUuMFGRwxd6/200.gif

[Dray n Klay]

Lebron's teams have low assist rankings and massive assist deficits regardless of offensive boards:



Team Assists in Lebron's last 4 Finals losses


GSW 2018 Finals: 28.7
CLE. 2018 Finals: 21.0

GSW 2017 Finals: 29.4
CLE. 2017 Finals: 21.4

GSW 2015 Finals: 23.0
CLE. 2015 Finals: 15.8

SAS 2014 Finals: 25.4
MIA 2014 Finals: 15.0


Again, the opponent's championship brand of high team assists and frantic ball movement wears lebron's team down more the an the plodding lebron-ball wears them down.. so it's lebron's team that usually ends up without the legs to defend, achieve their best offense, or control the game.


Why do all of lebrons teams turn to garbage once he leaves

[3ball]

Bulls team Offensive rebounds-101.... Seattle-63. When you have 40 more chances for an assist, you're going to have more team assists than your opponent.

Healthy GS with the top two 3pt shooters in the league getting more team assists than the Cavs who were missing their 2nd and 3rd options????

How could that be????????? :cletus: derp derp


Tell us how you came to the conclusion that Kyrie was premier playmaker while with the Cavs

MJ's bulls won 1st three-peat while getting killed the offensive glass, whereas Lebron's teams are simply low assist teams (15th average rank) and have massive assist deficits:



Team Assists in Lebron's last 4 Finals losses


GSW 2018 Finals: 28.7
CLE. 2018 Finals: 21.0

GSW 2017 Finals: 29.4
CLE. 2017 Finals: 21.4

GSW 2015 Finals: 23.0
CLE. 2015 Finals: 15.8

SAS 2014 Finals: 25.4
MIA 2014 Finals: 15.0


Again, the opponent's championship brand of high team assists and frantic ball movement wears lebron's team down more than the plodding lebron-ball wears them down.. so it's lebron's team that usually ends up without the legs to defend, achieve their best offense, or control the game.

[3ball]

Why do all of lebrons teams turn to garbage once he leaves
Before lebron left his teams, they had declined each year, eventually suffering record upset (10') or blowout (14', 18') that put the team in rebuild mode regardless of whether he stayed or not.. So they falter without him because they were in rebuild mode BEFORE he left and nowhere near championship caliber, let alone 3-peat caliber - he leaves teams in horrible shape/rebuild mode, so they predictably fall off when he leaves
.

[Ainosterhaspie]

3ball with endless strawmanning and wondering off topic. I'm not arguing with you that ball movement is in a vacuum preferable to static offence. I'm arguing that the lack of ball movement was due to other factors that had nothing to do with James not being able to function in a ball movement system.

I and others have been over those impediments repeatedly, and you just stick you fingers in your ears and say "nyah, nyah, nyah I can't hear you" and blabber incessantly about "ball movement' like you've got some weird form of tourrettes.

You know why ball movement falls apart and it has nothing to with James' flaws? It's because his coaches seem to have no ideas for a system beyond "play faster". It's because stuff like this keeps happening:

https://youtu.be/dI93hnAiCO4

Clarkson can't or won't pass to James under the rim and chooses instead to iso his man and brick multiple layups. Hey Yo just educated about Irving shooting constantly and not getting assists. Think that might have something to do with low team assists? Irving every year before joining James had lower team assists than James' team. Wade in the years before and after playing with James had lower team assists than James teams. What about Cleveland this year? From 11th to 29th with James gone. Lakers have more assists per 100 this year than last so far.

So maybe, just maybe the low team assist problem originates from sources other than the guy who is an elite passer, scorer and decision maker who can fill any hole in your offense at a high level.

[Dray n Klay]

Before lebron left his teams, they had declined each year, eventually suffering record upset (10') or blowout (14', 18') that put the team in rebuild mode regardless of whether he stayed or not.. So they falter without him because they were in rebuild mode BEFORE he left and nowhere near championship caliber, let alone 3-peat caliber - he leaves teams in horrible shape/rebuild mode, so they predictably fall off when he leaves

They made the finals in 14-18



Going from a championship contender to a lottery team is the GOAT impact

[Hey Yo]

MJ's bulls won 1st three-peat while getting killed the offensive glass, whereas Lebron's teams are simply low assist teams (15th average rank) and have massive assist deficits:



Team Assists in Lebron's last 4 Finals losses


GSW 2018 Finals: 28.7
CLE. 2018 Finals: 21.0

GSW 2017 Finals: 29.4
CLE. 2017 Finals: 21.4

GSW 2015 Finals: 23.0
CLE. 2015 Finals: 15.8

SAS 2014 Finals: 25.4
MIA 2014 Finals: 15.0


Again, the opponent's championship brand of high team assists and frantic ball movement wears lebron's team down more than the plodding lebron-ball wears them down.. so it's lebron's team that usually ends up without the legs to defend, achieve their best offense, or control the game.
Quit duckin'...

https://media.tenor.com/images/28d60f4acf07769236dd72fae016dabc/tenor.gif

[3ball]

They made the finals in 14-18



Going from a championship contender to a lottery team is the GOAT impact
They weren't a Finals contender out west, as proven by them losing to the Spurs/Warriors worse than all the western teams did, infact by record amount in 14, 17, and 18.....

But I give you 15 - they would've won the championship with their superior big 3 healthy like they had in 16'.. only durant put the warriors over the top..

[3ball]

I said this:


You take it out of context and quote it like this this:

So you can make this argument even though I explicitly stated defense wasn't the issue I was focused on:

You're attacking a straw man. The issue was the massive talent advantage the Warriors had since most of the time they had four of the five best players on the court. But fine if you insist on bringing defense into it, let's talk about the defense.

In the last three games, all won by the Warriors, the the Warriors ORtg was an average 113.4, that is higher than their regular season ORtg which was 111.6. So while the Cavs defense started strong, it didn't finish well. So there you go. Defense was a problem. I wasn't going to argue that, but you insisted and it blew up in your face.

What changed on defense after game 3? Dellavadova had severe cramps after game three and was never the same after that. Up to that pint he was doing a decent job keeping Curry in check and being a gritty disruptive force on defense.

Not only that, the Warriors started using their small ball lineup heavily which made Mosgov a liability on the defensive end. That really changed the series. Mosgov was their second best offensive option and best rim protector, but he became an overall liability whenever the Warriors went to their small ball lineup. The already thin lineup now had another starter who they couldn't rely on for positive impact.

Now if you actually watched the games and were capable of understanding the ebbs and flows and adjustments from game to game, you wouldn't be wasting everyone's time with crackpot theories that the series was lost because James can't play in a system. But you are incapable of understanding the game beyond scraping the surface, and apparently don't watch the games, so we get the garbage you're spewing forth here.
Right.. it's always the other team's brand of high assist basketball that ends up getting the upper hand and winning the last 3 games, just like virtually all of Lebron's Finals losses (07, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18)..

So quit the excuses - the opponent's championship brand of frantic ball movement wears lebron's team down more than the plodding lebron-ball wears them down, so it's lebron's team that usually ends up without the legs to defend, achieve their best offense, or control the game

And I know the media said lebron deserved mvp, but they're wrong, as they frequently are.. Iggy got MVP in large part for causing lebron to iverson-throw-up all over the court.. so lebron can't also have played like an MVP. It can't be both.

lebron's efg was worse than his combined teammates', and the reason the Warriors' allowed his repeated isolations was because he was shooting so bad - the Warriors were benefitting every possession that lebron played his low efficiency, iso game with low team assists and ball movement..

it was a garbage way to play, but it still nearly worked because the pre-durant warriors themselves weren't dominant on the championship level

And you didn't answer why MJ achieved top 2 all-time offenses with less offensive help than lebron, while lebron's teams peaked at 62nd (heatles) and 26th and 46th (Cavs).. (obviously it's teamwork).. finally, you didn't respond to the goat talent evaluator (west) corroborating (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TfpDYxq9K3U&t=24m06s) all this by saying MJ was better for ball movement than lebron

[3ball]

^^^ I had to repost that for reference because I wasn't sure if you responded Ainosterhaspie

And it's a fact that lebron rejected blatt's Princeton offense, I'll get the link

Good stuff:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/4294vb/blatts_offense_the_systemoffense_cleveland_fans/.

[knicksman]

this just confirms agenda to make lebron the next jordan. Thats why they let him win in 2016 and they gave him gamewinners last 2 seasons to make him appear clutch. They can fool the sheeps but not us alphas.

[Andrei89]

this just confirms agenda to make lebron the next jordan. Thats why they let him win in 2016 and they gave him gamewinners last 2 seasons to make him appear clutch. They can fool the sheeps but not us alphas.


They gave him 2 game winners?

This hijo the puta done lost his mind:roll: :roll: :roll: