Ayton vs Doncic update

[90sgoat]

Ayton - 2 points 5 fouls
Doncic - 24 points

4th quarter

[k0kakw0rld]

Ayton - 2 points 5 fouls
Doncic - 24 points

4th quarter
1 is being guarded by DeAndre Jordan and the other by cavemen :confusedshrug:

[90sgoat]

1 is being guarded by DeAndre Jordan and the other by cavemen :confusedshrug:

DeAndre Jordan is useless on D this season.

Ayton is just quite primitive in his moves.

[CelticBaller]

1 is being guarded by DeAndre Jordan and the other by cavemen :confusedshrug:
Imagine believing Deandre Jordan is a good defender

[stalkerforlife]

Imagine believing Deandre Jordan is a good defender

:roll:

Bu bu bu BUT he can dunk cool, boss.

[stalkerforlife]

Cool hand Luka with a 30 piece.

Daaaaamn.

[DirkNowitzki41]

I

[Walker]

They're both going to be hall of famers so who cares. I agree Luka is better now but if I got to do the draft again now I'd still take Ayton for Phoenix.

[Manny98]

Imagine believing Deandre Jordan is a good defender
He is leading the league in defensive real plus minus :confusedshrug:

[wagexslave]

Luka will finish with the better season and win ROTY. Ayton will have the more successful career.

Luka is more experienced. One thing a lot of people don't realize is Ayton never picked up a basketball until he was 12, Luka's dad is a basketball coach and was a former Euroleague player. Not to mention Luka played pro ball in Europe since he was like 14. Luka's game is much more developed and refined due to many years of basketball and pro experience and getting training from his dad. He's literally been taught basketball since he was in diapers.

Ayton still has a lot to learn, and yet he's still already a good center in this league, despite being on a team with 0 good passers to feed him the ball and playing in a system that severely under-utilizes him. He'll only get better and better. He's extremely coachable. He admits his mistakes and tries to work on them, and is humble. He tries to learn from other great players in the league. And if the Suns actually get a real PG and run the offense through him more, he can definitely be a 30 point 10+ reb player in the near future.

The Suns roster is built better for the future than the Mavs. The Suns have the 2nd youngest roster in the league, the Mavs have the 3rd oldest roster in the league. Suns have so many young guys that are oozing with talent. Booker just turned 22 and is already putting up all-star numbers, and he's locked up for 6 years. TJ Warren is a great scoring option to have and finally went from being a terrible 3 point shooter to shooting great from 3, and he's locked up on an amazingly cheap contract. You can already argue that both of those guys are arguably better than any young guys the Mavs have outside of Luka.

Then you got a flood of young wings on the Suns. Kelly Oubre Jr, Josh Jackson, and Mikal Bridges who all have great potential but bring slightly different things to the table. All 3 of these guys have high ceilings if they ever learn to be consistent, but offer a lot of intangibles that make them valuable as role/bench players even if they never reach their full potential. And Richaun Holmes is one of the best backup centers in the league.

Then there's the Suns draft/salary cap situation. Should they win the draft lotto again, they add Zion. Which would make them INSANE for the future. But no matter what they're looking at at least a top 6 pick most likely. And they have a shit ton of dead money coming off the books this offseason. They're currently paying $55 million to players who either got waved and Ryan Anderson who gets 0 minutes. So much money to lock up the young role players and make a push for good free agents.

Tl;dr Unless shit changes, give me Ayton and the Suns future situation over Luka and the Mavs future situation any day.

[highwhey]

what about their first two matchups?

oh and don

[Rudeboy3]

[QUOTE=highwhey]what about their first two matchups?

oh and don

[r0drig0lac]

They're both going to be hall of famers so who cares. I agree Luka is better now but if I got to do the draft again now I'd still take Ayton for Phoenix.
no

[tpols]

Ayton can't play well without Booker it seems... He needs his action and decoy ability

[ralph_i_el]

[QUOTE=highwhey]what about their first two matchups?

oh and don

[bobopenguin]

so many insecured black men in this thread.

it's ok to let white men win sometimes. :banana:

[stalkerforlife]

Luka will finish with the better season and win ROTY. Ayton will have the more successful career.

Luka is more experienced. One thing a lot of people don't realize is Ayton never picked up a basketball until he was 12, Luka's dad is a basketball coach and was a former Euroleague player. Not to mention Luka played pro ball in Europe since he was like 14. Luka's game is much more developed and refined due to many years of basketball and pro experience and getting training from his dad. He's literally been taught basketball since he was in diapers.

Ayton still has a lot to learn, and yet he's still already a good center in this league, despite being on a team with 0 good passers to feed him the ball and playing in a system that severely under-utilizes him. He'll only get better and better. He's extremely coachable. He admits his mistakes and tries to work on them, and is humble. He tries to learn from other great players in the league. And if the Suns actually get a real PG and run the offense through him more, he can definitely be a 30 point 10+ reb player in the near future.

The Suns roster is built better for the future than the Mavs. The Suns have the 2nd youngest roster in the league, the Mavs have the 3rd oldest roster in the league. Suns have so many young guys that are oozing with talent. Booker just turned 22 and is already putting up all-star numbers, and he's locked up for 6 years. TJ Warren is a great scoring option to have and finally went from being a terrible 3 point shooter to shooting great from 3, and he's locked up on an amazingly cheap contract. You can already argue that both of those guys are arguably better than any young guys the Mavs have outside of Luka.

Then you got a flood of young wings on the Suns. Kelly Oubre Jr, Josh Jackson, and Mikal Bridges who all have great potential but bring slightly different things to the table. All 3 of these guys have high ceilings if they ever learn to be consistent, but offer a lot of intangibles that make them valuable as role/bench players even if they never reach their full potential. And Richaun Holmes is one of the best backup centers in the league.

Then there's the Suns draft/salary cap situation. Should they win the draft lotto again, they add Zion. Which would make them INSANE for the future. But no matter what they're looking at at least a top 6 pick most likely. And they have a shit ton of dead money coming off the books this offseason. They're currently paying $55 million to players who either got waved and Ryan Anderson who gets 0 minutes. So much money to lock up the young role players and make a push for good free agents.

Tl;dr Unless shit changes, give me Ayton and the Suns future situation over Luka and the Mavs future situation any day.

Laughable.

Barring injuries, Luka is a lock to be better because of his ability to elevate teammates.

Ayton will never be on his play making level.

[90sgoat]

Luka is already an offensive star.

The only thing that will hold him back is his lazyness on defense. He doesn't try very hard and sometimes, doesn't try at all. Better than Harden, but not by a lot.

[wagexslave]

Ayton can't play well without Booker it seems... He needs his action and decoy ability
Book is the only person on the team who remotely knows how to run plays for him(maybe Josh Jackson to a certain extent too). And yeah, if Book isn't there teams can double team Ayton. He'll get better at dealing with it over time, but especially at the moment with the lack of good passers on the Suns it works well at making Ayton not much of a factor on offense.

[wagexslave]

Laughable.

Barring injuries, Luka is a lock to be better because of his ability to elevate teammates.

Ayton will never be on his play making level.
I said Ayton will be the more successful player. Doesn't necessarily need to be the better player to be more successful. Besides all these 1:1 comparisons are dumb to begin with. They're 2 completely different types of players, there's almost nothing in common between them other than both being rookies.

[90sgoat]

Book is the only person on the team who remotely knows how to run plays for him(maybe Josh Jackson to a certain extent too). And yeah, if Book isn't there teams can double team Ayton. He'll get better at dealing with it over time, but especially at the moment with the lack of good passers on the Suns it works well at making Ayton not much of a factor on offense.

I see Ayton as Dwight Howard without defense.

Which is honestly not a great upside.

Ayton has very limited and clunky footwork.

[1987_Lakers]

I don't trust a big man who isn't a defender. How can you be over 7 feet and not even average 1 block a game?

Ayton because of his lack of defense will never be a superstar in this league, he is basically a more athletic and less skilled version of Brad Daugherty, both give you similar production.

Ayton will be a guy who is a consistent All-Star in his prime, but considered a tier below the elite which is nothing to be ashamed of.

[wagexslave]

I don't trust a big man who isn't a defender. How can you be over 7 feet and not even average 1 block a game?

Ayton because of his lack of defense will never be a superstar in this league, he is basically a more athletic and less skilled version of Brad Daugherty, both give you similar production.

Ayton will be a guy who is a consistent All-Star in his prime, but considered a tier below the elite which is nothing to be ashamed of.
You must not actually watch him play, because his defense has been improving more as the season has gone on. He's showcased how dominant he can be in a game when he's playing at his best on defense. In the win against the Magic, for example. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iF5PgyM-8U) In overtime the Magic only scored 2 points, and that was mainly cause of the great defense by Ayton making it difficult for the Magic on almost every play.

He still has a lot to learn, and needs to be more consistent for sure. But to say he's been playing bad defense lately is a myth. At the beginning of the season, I'd agree with you. But not now. He's stepped it up. He definitely plays better defense than Luka. And there's no way he'll average less than 1 block for his whole career. I'd be surprised if he doesn't get his season average over 1.0 in the next month

[wagexslave]

I see Ayton as Dwight Howard without defense.

Which is honestly not a great upside.

Ayton has very limited and clunky footwork.
Clunky footwork? What are you talking bro. His footwork has always been seen as one of his strengths. And his defense is continuously improving. I don't agree with that comparison at all. Dwight wishes he had the soft touch to shoot hookshots, FTs, and mid range jumpers like Deandre.

[FireDavidKahn]

Luka is already an offensive star.

The only thing that will hold him back is his lazyness on defense. He doesn't try very hard and sometimes, doesn't try at all. Better than Harden, but not by a lot.
This is kinda why he will always a much better #1 option than Ayton.

This really doesn't have anything to do with their talent but rather that one is a wing and one is a center. You can't contend for championships these days without a superstar wing. You just can't. Franchise centers can elevate your team so incredibly much but 99.9% of the time they can't be true #1 players that are needed to win.

[wagexslave]

This is kinda why he will always a much better #1 option than Ayton.

This really doesn't have anything to do with their talent but rather that one is a wing and one is a center. You can't contend for championships these days without a superstar wing. You just can't. Franchise centers can elevate your team so incredibly much but 99.9% of the time they can't be true #1 players that are needed to win.
True but after all it's a jump shooter/ball handler's league at the moment and of course Luka will always be the better first option by default because of that. But I'm not crazy high on the Mavs roster for the future. They have the 3rd oldest team and barely any assets.

As I said in my previous posts, I truly believe that the Suns have a better future lined up(as of right now, obviously shit can happen... -knock on wood-). With so much young talent, all they really need is a good PG and a bit more development/experience to become a playoff team. And if they manage to get lucky and get Zion as well, you're talking about a future dynasty as their ceiling. Not to mention all the dead cap space they will have coming off the books this this offseason and next.

Their future is bright, and I think Ayton was the best pick for that future. Luka is amazing and I'd have been happy if we picked him too. He's a beast. But it just feels so good to finally have a good center. We have plenty of wings and shooters on the roster, so it just wasn't as much of a position of need for us. But I really like Luka and I can't wait to see more matchups between the Mavs and Suns and watch these 2 talented young players get better and better.

[Smoke117]

1 is being guarded by DeAndre Jordan and the other by cavemen :confusedshrug:

ahahahah. Deandre Jordan has never been known for his one on one defense, cupcake.

What makes this even worse is that Ayton is a horrible defensive player so if he isn't scoring he's basically useless.

[julizaver]

A lot of posters talk about Luka playing pro for 4 seasons in Europe, but seems to forgot that he is also younger than Ayton is still only 19 years old. Also it is not like he played 4 full seasons playing in all the time. Luka was playing more in his last two seasons with Madrid.

Off course I am not objecting the claim that Luka's game is more polished, or he picked a bball far earlier than Ayton. But he also had a room for improvement.

Ayton is a good prospect - but hey do no expect this guy to be the next Shaq, Hakeem ... I don't see something extraordinary in him.

And also about Doncic, he do special things for a rookie.

[Euroleague]

They're both going to be hall of famers so who cares. I agree Luka is better now but if I got to do the draft again now I'd still take Ayton for Phoenix.

The Suns not taking Doncic was one of the biggest draft blunders of all time.

[Euroleague]

Luka will finish with the better season and win ROTY. Ayton will have the more successful career.

Luka is more experienced. One thing a lot of people don't realize is Ayton never picked up a basketball until he was 12, Luka's dad is a basketball coach and was a former Euroleague player. Not to mention Luka played pro ball in Europe since he was like 14. Luka's game is much more developed and refined due to many years of basketball and pro experience and getting training from his dad. He's literally been taught basketball since he was in diapers.

Ayton still has a lot to learn, and yet he's still already a good center in this league, despite being on a team with 0 good passers to feed him the ball and playing in a system that severely under-utilizes him. He'll only get better and better. He's extremely coachable. He admits his mistakes and tries to work on them, and is humble. He tries to learn from other great players in the league. And if the Suns actually get a real PG and run the offense through him more, he can definitely be a 30 point 10+ reb player in the near future.

The Suns roster is built better for the future than the Mavs. The Suns have the 2nd youngest roster in the league, the Mavs have the 3rd oldest roster in the league. Suns have so many young guys that are oozing with talent. Booker just turned 22 and is already putting up all-star numbers, and he's locked up for 6 years. TJ Warren is a great scoring option to have and finally went from being a terrible 3 point shooter to shooting great from 3, and he's locked up on an amazingly cheap contract. You can already argue that both of those guys are arguably better than any young guys the Mavs have outside of Luka.

Then you got a flood of young wings on the Suns. Kelly Oubre Jr, Josh Jackson, and Mikal Bridges who all have great potential but bring slightly different things to the table. All 3 of these guys have high ceilings if they ever learn to be consistent, but offer a lot of intangibles that make them valuable as role/bench players even if they never reach their full potential. And Richaun Holmes is one of the best backup centers in the league.

Then there's the Suns draft/salary cap situation. Should they win the draft lotto again, they add Zion. Which would make them INSANE for the future. But no matter what they're looking at at least a top 6 pick most likely. And they have a shit ton of dead money coming off the books this offseason. They're currently paying $55 million to players who either got waved and Ryan Anderson who gets 0 minutes. So much money to lock up the young role players and make a push for good free agents.

Tl;dr Unless shit changes, give me Ayton and the Suns future situation over Luka and the Mavs future situation any day.

Nope.

Doncic didn't play at a pro team's rotation until he was age 17. Not age 14.

Your entire premise is wrong from the get go.

[Euroleague]

A lot of posters talk about Luka playing pro for 4 seasons in Europe, but seems to forgot that he is also younger than Ayton is still only 19 years old. Also it is not like he played 4 full seasons playing in all the time. Luka was playing more in his last two seasons with Madrid.

Off course I am not objecting the claim that Luka's game is more polished, or he picked a bball far earlier than Ayton. But he also had a room for improvement.

Ayton is a good prospect - but hey do no expect this guy to be the next Shaq, Hakeem ... I don't see something extraordinary in him.

And also about Doncic, he do special things for a rookie.

He only had 3 seasons in Real Madrid, and the first season he didn't even play. He had 2 seasons in a pro team's rotation...that's it. US sports media is totally full of BS with all these claims that he was a pro at age 13. They just can't ever stop making up lies about European basketball.

Doncic in reality had 2 seasons in a rotation at Real before the NBA, and only one season where he was even a relevant player on the team. Before last season, he wasn't even a relevant player really for them.

US media is spinning that into an absurd claim that, "he has been playing professionally since he was 13".........

like they think that discredits him somehow, and gives this idea he's a finished product, and that anything he did in EuroLeague is totally irrelevant, because it is a league full of 13 year olds..........

The level of stupidity is unreal.

Doncic really has last season of major development before NBA, that's it.

[jongib369]

He only had 3 seasons in Real Madrid, and the first season he didn't even play. He had 2 seasons in a pro team's rotation...that's it. US sports media is totally full of BS with all these claims that he was a pro at age 13. They just can't ever stop making up lies about European basketball.

Doncic in reality had 2 seasons in a rotation at Real before the NBA, and only one season where he was even a relevant player on the team. Before last season, he wasn't even a relevant player really for them.

US media is spinning that into an absurd claim that, "he has been playing professionally since he was 13".........

like they think that discredits him somehow, and gives this idea he's a finished product, and that anything he did in EuroLeague is totally irrelevant, because it is a league full of 13 year olds..........

The level of stupidity is unreal.

Doncic really has last season of major development before NBA, that's it.
Has he surprised you in the NBA or is it exactly what you expected for the most part?

[wagexslave]

Nope.

Doncic didn't play at a pro team's rotation until he was age 17. Not age 14.

Your entire premise is wrong from the get go.
Even regardless of whether or not he actually got minutes on the pro team until last year, there's still the fact that Luka's dad was a Euro pro basketball player. He trained Luka since he was in diapers. He was literally born to play basketball. Ayton didn't have that kind of privilege. And really it doesn't matter much at the end of the day anyways, but Luka simply does have more years of experience playing basketball and it shows. Luka plays like he's been taught to do this his whole life. Ayton plays like someone who is still learning every day.

That's not meant to be a discredit to Luka. Just because he's already very refined for a Rookie doesn't mean he wont get better. But Luka already has the confidence, the moves/tricks, utilizes his body, and knows the game inside-out. So his progression wont be like a typical rookie. His progression will be more like a prime player, learning how to be more consistent, learning how to perfect his shooting form, learning advanced techniques, etc. But those things sometimes take a long time to master.

But Ayton's progression is going to be more simple and comparable to a typical rookie. He still has a lot to learn about the game. He tends to make a few "rookie mistakes" but learns from them. He doesn't fully know how to utilize his body against other evenly-sized bigs yet. And he still hasn't learned how to play super aggressive yet.

That being said I like them both and agree Luka deserves ROTY. As a Suns fan I'm happy with Ayton and I always said I would have loved Luka as well. I believe they're both future all-stars.

[jongib369]

Even regardless of whether or not he actually got minutes on the pro team until last year, there's still the fact that Luka's dad was a Euro pro basketball player. He trained Luka since he was in diapers. He was literally born to play basketball. Ayton didn't have that kind of privilege. And really it doesn't matter much at the end of the day anyways, but Luka simply does have more years of experience playing basketball and it shows. Luka plays like he's been taught to do this his whole life. Ayton plays like someone who is still learning every day.

That's not meant to be a discredit to Luka. Just because he's already very refined for a Rookie doesn't mean he wont get better. But Luka already has the confidence, the moves/tricks, utilizes his body, and knows the game inside-out. So his progression wont be like a typical rookie. His progression will be more like a prime player, learning how to be more consistent, learning how to perfect his shooting form, learning advanced techniques, etc. But those things sometimes take a long time to master.

But Ayton's progression is going to be more simple and comparable to a typical rookie. He still has a lot to learn about the game. He tends to make a few "rookie mistakes" but learns from them. He doesn't fully know how to utilize his body against other evenly-sized bigs yet. And he still hasn't learned how to play super aggressive yet.

That being said I like them both and agree Luka deserves ROTY. As a Suns fan I'm happy with Ayton and I always said I would have loved Luka as well. I believe they're both future all-stars.

He will probably make greater leaps in progression than Luka but with that being said I would expect him to be better than what he is if he started playing at age 12. Tim Duncan didn't start playing until he was like 14/15, Embiid was 15, Amar'e 14, Hakeem 15 etc. So I have doubts he will surpass Luka but wish him the best of luck. I probably would've made the safe choice drafting him if I was controlling the suns.

[Euroleague]

Has he surprised you in the NBA or is it exactly what you expected for the most part?

He's been worse than I thought he would be so far. He can play better than he has been. Honestly, last season he was better.

[kentatm]

They're both going to be hall of famers so who cares. I agree Luka is better now but if I got to do the draft again now I'd still take Ayton for Phoenix.


:facepalm :roll:


The Suns not taking Doncic was one of the biggest draft blunders of all time.

preach

[Smoke117]

I'm still wondering why Ayton was ever compared to David Robinson. Setting aside defense, he's not even close to as athletic or mobile as Big Dave was. Ayton is more Patrick Ewing than he is David Robinson.

[jongib369]

He's been worse than I thought he would be so far. He can play better than he has been. Honestly, last season he was better.
Too much fortnight in his freetime.

[eliteballer]

Ayton will be the better/more impactful player.......no hesitation.

Doncic has a ceiling, Ayton doesn't.

[90sgoat]

Halftime report: 15 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals.

[Rudeboy3]

Halftime report: 15 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals.
If he gets his first career triple double, that shit is going to reach a mil on youtube fast af

[90sgoat]

If he gets his first career triple double, that shit is going to reach a mil on youtube fast af

According to BBallref, no rookie has gotten a trip dup since 1983, is that really true?

[Rudeboy3]

According to BBallref, no rookie has gotten a trip dup since 1983, is that really true?
wtf no :lol

[90sgoat]

wtf no :lol

Lol.

However, Luka could be the youngest to record a trip-dub potentially?

[imdaman99]

Doncic has a very punchable face, especially with that neckbeard. But you can't deny his clutch factor :eek: dude has the last 7 points :eek: