Why did the 'Heatles' peak at #62 all-time offensively?

[3ball]

Approximately 61 teams with less offensive talent did better

[1987_Lakers]

MJ never beat a 73 win team. In fact, his team won 55 games without him.

[tamaraw08]

Approximately 61 teams with less offensive talent did better
Where did the 08 Boston Celtics Champs ranked in offense. Same team that had Allen, Pierce, KG and Rondo:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Where did the 08 Boston Celtics Champs ranked in offense. Same team that had Allen, Pierce, KG and Rondo:confusedshrug:
They similarly underachieved, barely squeaking by the 8-seed Hawks in 08'

And only winning one ring with that big 4

Thanks for bringing them up

And obviously, a #62 offense puts the team at a tremendous disadvantage in the Finals against a top 5 all-time offense.. his team has a lottery team win percentage chance (33%, 3/9)

[Kblaze8855]

There was a point where aside from 2 games vs the Bulls.....they didnt lose a game they didnt rest starters in for almost 4 months. Feburary 2nd to may 24th. They lost to the Bulls twice...and won ever other game. And the second loss was in the playoffs.

That Bulls game that broke up the 27 game win streak was their only L from 2-2 to 5-6 aside from a game they sat Lebron and Wade for rest. That aside...they won for over 3 months in a row and dropped one more game to the Bulls in the playoffs for a total of 2 real losses in 3 months and 24 days..

They were pretty good for a while there.

[bigkingsfan]

Why did prime Mike lose to a newbie 2nd round team that got swept in the finals.

[tamaraw08]

They similarly underachieved, barely squeaking by the 8-seed Hawks in 08'

And only winning one ring with that big 4

Thanks for bringing them up

And obviously, a #62 offense puts the team at a tremendous disadvantage in the Finals against a top 5 all-time offense.. his team has a lottery team win percentage chance (33%, 3/9)

But you are just looking at offense and not defense, the same Boston team that massacred Kobe and Phil in the finals.
That is the thing. though.
Bulls got BUTCHERED by a great defensive team like the Pistons in 1988 and the Bulls had a VERY BAD ORTG OF 95.8.

[3ball]

But you are just looking at offense


Right

We aren't looking at defense....

only offense, where lebron-ball caused goat talent to achieve a middling offense all-time





Bulls got BUTCHERED by a great defensive team like the Pistons in 1988 and the Bulls had a VERY BAD ORTG OF 95.8.


Compare their 2nd options - Wade versus Vincent

Exactly.. who?

This topic is threadworthy because the Heat had goat talent, but achieved a middling offense all-time...

The 88' bulls didn't have all-time talent, so it isn't comparable

[sdot_thadon]

There was a point where aside from 2 games vs the Bulls.....they didnt lose a game they didnt rest starters in for almost 4 months. Feburary 2nd to may 24th. They lost to the Bulls twice...and won ever other game. And the second loss was in the playoffs.

That Bulls game that broke up the 27 game win streak was their only L from 2-2 to 5-6 aside from a game they sat Lebron and Wade for rest. That aside...they won for over 3 months in a row and dropped one more game to the Bulls in the playoffs for a total of 2 real losses in 3 months and 24 days..

They were pretty good for a while there.
pretty much all of this. Also Wade ended up limping into the playoffs due to this run.

[3ball]

There was a point where aside from 2 games vs the Bulls.....they didnt lose a game they didnt rest starters in for almost 4 months. Feburary 2nd to may 24th. They lost to the Bulls twice...and won ever other game. And the second loss was in the playoffs.

That Bulls game that broke up the 27 game win streak was their only L from 2-2 to 5-6 aside from a game they sat Lebron and Wade for rest. That aside...they won for over 3 months in a row and dropped one more game to the Bulls in the playoffs for a total of 2 real losses in 3 months and 24 days..

They were pretty good for a while there.
Why did their offense peak at #62 all time, when they were observably,
statistically (http://i65.tinypic.com/2qn5u3b.jpg), and common knowledge (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EYe8B--jrbs) one of the goat assemblages of talent??

You avoided this question/derailed thread by posting about the heat's 27 game win streak... because ur a lebron stan and supporter of him for goat... It's nice that the Heat were good for about 30 games, but that's irrelevant to the thread title...

(not to mention that they were nearly upset in the 13' Finals if not for luck, thus proving they weren't the dominant team their goat talent suggested.. and this was proven again in 14'... It's funny how every other team is expected to win banged up, but not the 14' heat.. who weren't banged up - Wade was lights out in ecf versus the pacers' #1 defense)

[tamaraw08]

Right

We aren't looking at defense....

only offense, where lebron-ball caused goat talent to achieve a middling offense all-time



Compare their 2nd options - Wade versus Vincent

Exactly.. who?

This topic is threadworthy because the Heat had goat talent, but achieved a middling offense all-time...

The 88' bulls didn't have all-time talent, so it isn't comparable
classic example of nitpicking. You pick and choose that fits your agenda.
Boston 08, Pistons and OTHER CHAMPS CHOSE TO FOCUS on defense.
Where do the 5 ring champs Spurs ranked in offense BTW?

[SomeBlackDude]

MJ never beat a 73 win team. In fact, his team won 55 games without him.

he won 72 games AND a championship.

d-wade won a championship with the heat against the mavericks without bron.

r.i.p.

[tpols]

Where did the 08 Boston Celtics Champs ranked in offense. Same team that had Allen, Pierce, KG and Rondo:confusedshrug:


They joined at later parts of their career and had a two year peak in the playoffs '08 & '10... Kg getting hurt and missing '09 playoffs killed them. Wade and LeBron played in 99% of playoff games, just underachieved due to inferior fit and teamwork.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bad example.

The 13 Heat have the most efficient offense ever via eFG% after the 16-17 Warriors

[Ainosterhaspie]

2011-2014, the Heatles years, the league average ORtg was 106.1. 1985-1998,the Jordan years the league average ORtg was 107.5. Heatles years were strong defensive years for the league.

[TheCorporation]

MJ never beat a 73 win team. In fact, his team won 55 games without him.


Oh my lord what a slaughter on the first post. I'll add this tidbit for good measure since we're discussing the Miami Heat and LeBron's impact

2014 Heat (w/ LBJ): 54 wins (Finals)
2015 Heat (w/o LBJ): 37 wins (missed playoffs)

Does anyone know what Jordan's impact was when he left the '93 Bulls? Can anyone pull up the records for

1993 Bulls (w/ Jordan)
1994 Bulls (w/o Jordan)

Thank you

[3ball]

Bad Example
The 13 Heat have the most efficient offense ever via eFG% after the 16-17 Warriors

.
There is no other example.. #62 was their highest rank

So they produced points worse than 61 other teams

That's a major underachievement for a star teaming up with the #2 player in the league and a top 4 PF

In 2010, Wade was #2 in PER, VORP, BPM, WS/48 - so he was the #2 player, and therefore akin to teaming up with magic or bird.. accordingly, a #62 offense is a verifiable joke
.

[TheCorporation]

There is no other example
#62 was their highest rank

So they produced points worse than 61 other teams


Use ELO rating and stop cherry picking. You're scrambling at this point 3ball.

[3ball]

2011-2014, the Heatles years, the league average ORtg was 106.1. 1985-1998,the Jordan years the league average ORtg was 107.5. Heatles years were strong defensive years for the league.
League ortg was 106.7 in 1996 when the bulls achieved the #6 all-time ortg

League ortg was 107.3 in 2011 when the Heatles were outside the top 75 all-time

Also, the 2017 and 2018 seasons had the highest league ortg ever, yet the Cavs were #26 and 46 all-time.. :facepalm ...

So lebron's best offenses are 26, 46, and 62nd, compared to MJ's #2, 6, 12, and 16th..... With far less offensive help.... So mj-ball > lecancer ball.. much >>

[Kblaze8855]

Why did their offense peak at #62 all time, when they were observably,
statistically (http://i65.tinypic.com/2qn5u3b.jpg), and common knowledge (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EYe8B--jrbs) one of the goat assemblages of talent??

You avoided this question/derailed thread by posting about the heat's 27 game win streak... because ur a lebron stan and supporter of him for goat... It's nice that the Heat were good for about 30 games, but that's irrelevant to the thread title...

(not to mention that they were nearly upset in the 13' Finals if not for luck, thus proving they weren't the dominant team their goat talent suggested.. and this was proven again in 14'... It's funny how every other team is expected to win banged up, but not the 14' heat.. who weren't banged up - Wade was lights out in ecf versus the pacers' #1 defense)


You asked a Question about a subject that doesn’t matter. Of what relevance is any ranking you have when you win every game for months at a time and win back to back championships? Do you get a bigger ring for your offensive rating being higher?

Complaining about the advanced stats of a great team that accomplished the only thing you can accomplish in the season in question is just nonsense hater talk.

Relating it to Lebrons all time ranking is just your usual obsession that you incorrectly feel normal people share. Team wins 66 or whatever games it was while resting guys....27 in a row....and the title...again....and you wanna know why some specific stat wasn’t better?

Who gives a shit?

Like someone is hoisting the trophy but upset about their all time rebound rate ranking....

It’s irrelevant stat nerd bullshit of the highest order.

[3ball]

There was a point where aside from 2 games vs the Bulls.....they didnt lose a game they didnt rest starters in for almost 4 months. Feburary 2nd to may 24th. They lost to the Bulls twice...and won ever other game. And the second loss was in the playoffs.

That Bulls game that broke up the 27 game win streak was their only L from 2-2 to 5-6 aside from a game they sat Lebron and Wade for rest. That aside...they won for over 3 months in a row and dropped one more game to the Bulls in the playoffs for a total of 2 real losses in 3 months and 24 days..

They were pretty good for a while there.
Another thing

I'm not sure if ur trying to point out that lebron had a dominant team in 2013 or not

but regardless, that was the only year he was favored.. he generally didn't achieve favorite status, despite the decisions giving him the best talent in the league, and PRE-SEASON favored status in 11 and 15'

And his underachieving offenses contributed to him never achieving the dominant favorite that other teams had in his era... In addition to his weak defensive example/culture..

so this topic is relevant, because it partly explains why he almost never had dominant favorites
.

[3ball]

You asked a Question about a subject that doesn’t matter. Of what relevance is any ranking you have when you win every game for months at a time and win back to back championships? Do you get a bigger ring for your offensive rating being higher?

Complaining about the advanced stats of a great team that accomplished the only thing you can accomplish in the season in question is just nonsense hater talk.

Relating it to Lebrons all time ranking is just your usual obsession that you incorrectly feel normal people share. Team wins 66 or whatever games it was while resting guys....27 in a row....and the title...again....and you wanna know why some specific stat wasn’t better?

Who gives a shit?

Like someone is hoisting the trophy but upset about their all time rebound rate ranking....

It’s irrelevant stat nerd bullshit of the highest order.
Again, lebron's underachieving offenses are relevant because they partly explain why he almost never achieved dominant favorites

for example, if curry/klay achieve the #13 all-time offensive ranking in 2016, while lebron/kyrie are outside of the top 75, that helps explain why curry won so many more games, and his dominant offense/team was favored over lebron's less effective team

[3ball]

TLDR:

Lebron-ball's vastly inferior offense is a major reason for his inferior teams compared to other greats (whether you like it or not)
.

[tpols]

You asked a Question about a subject that doesn’t matter. Of what relevance is any ranking you have when you win every game for months at a time and win back to back championships?


that months stretch is included in their total season offensive rank, so it is completely relevant.

And a valid topic... the heat were expected to be a bill russell dynasty but you just shrug off how far they fell of expectations.

[Kblaze8855]

Again, lebron's underachieving offenses are relevant because they partly explain why he almost never achieved dominant favorites

for example, if curry/klay achieve the #13 all-time offensive ranking in 2016, while lebron/kyrie are outside of the top 75, that helps explain why curry won so many more games, and his dominant offense/team was favored over lebron's less effective team

I dont mean it isnt relevant as in it shouldnt come up on basketball board. As you can tell im not stopping you from talking about it. But far as bearing on how good or bad any of these teams and individuals are?

The main problem is you only see basketball arguments through a lens of Lebron. I see an argument and the logic is applied to basketball in general.
For example....

The 86 Celtics offensive rating is 92nd all time. The 83 76ers isnt even in the top 100. The 2010 Hawks...93 Pacers....above them. Im supposed to care that the 86 Mavs are top 10 all time? Yes...ive made topics about Mark Aguirre and his nice skillset. But im gonna factor in his teams offensive rating on the subject of him vs say....Bernard King who has no team in the top 100? If im talking Jason Kidd vs Jeff Mcginnis is Jeffs Clippers having a higher offensive ratings than Kidd Nets when they went to the finals supposed to be a factor to me?

The 83 Lakers had Magic....Kareem...Norm Nixon...Wilkes...Mcadoo and Worthy off the bench...with DPOY cooper for extra. 4 all stars with 2 hall of famers off the bench. Offensive rating 110. Lebron with Mo, Delonte, Sideshow Bob, Big Z, Ben Wallace, and Sasha...112.

Am I supposed to give a shit?

Serious question.

On the subject of Magics ability to get the best offense out of a team vs Lebrons....should I care what some team of role players did with Lebron relative to what a team with 6 stars did with Magic?

I dont.

I dont care about that.

You tell me why I should. Im genuinely curious why I should care what like....the 93 Pacers offensive rating(112) is compared to the 81 Celtics who won it all with a rating of 109? You think im supposed to lavish praise on Pooh Richardson for how his offense was humming? Act like Bird held his team back somehow?

Do you have any explanation for why I need to judge players this way without involving Lebron James? Because im not interested in that.

I want to know why you feel the logic is sound on matter of basketball players in general. You give me that perhaps ill get why it matter in this specific situation. I just dont feel like you are likely to do that....because you arent here to talk about the Pacers or Doctor J or anyone....you make these points Lebron specific and ignore the wider implication.

If you apply this rationale to general basketball judgement ok....but id like to hear that from you because you never seem to get around to the wider issue. You stick to Lebron...and it makes me feel like you dont even consider how these things apply the the other 10,000 players.

[3ball]

Stats are useful because of the correlations derived from them

It's not debateable... the more points produced per possession (a better offense) - is strongly correlated with winning.. infact, it's the primary correlation.

So lebron's underachieving offenses hurt his ability to win as much as he SHOULD... It's not even debateable.. his offenses should be rated higher... magic, bird, MJ and curry achieved top offenses that helped them win more, so why not lebron?

Again, don't complain that lebron is an underdog when curry/klay achieve the #13 offense and lebron/kyrie aren't even in the top 75
.

[Kblaze8855]

there's always tons of fluctuations and contradictions with any stat

But the correlation is always there...a better offense - the more points produced per possession - is strongly correlated with winning

Again, don't complain that lebron is an underdog when curry/klay achieve the #13 offense and lebron/kyrie aren't even in the top 75


This is me 6 years ago in a subject on Lebron being better than Bird and Magic:




Unselfish as Lebron may be he forces his teammates to bend to his style of game. And effective one...but hes a guy id hesitate to put next to say....Kevin Mchale. I dont see James Worthy having the same career next to Lebron.

Lebron needs role players and stars who gradually accept their position below him and his ball control. Dude is clearing out the likes of Wade sending them to the corners so he can back out to halfcourt and drive and dish 3-4 times a game. I dont know if thats gonna fly with people not inclined to be put in the back seat.

I dont think Lebron is too selfish to change...I think hes too effective to feel he should. And really...he is. But its not what id want on my team. You couldnt build a team like the Spurs with Lebron on it. A "Next man up..." everyone does his thing no matter who plays or who doesnt...chemistry driven team. He takes too much on himself and when hes off it leaves too much to be done.

A magic or bird team with the same players I think makes for a better TEAM....

I dont think its by chance that he won damn near 70 games with role players but 50 something with Wade, Bosh, and similar role players.

Let me take one....its probably Bird....with Magic if I dont trust my guards...

I wouldnt really consider Lebron. Doesnt make him like miles worse. You can put him in their general area. I just dont want to build the team he needs.



So.

Lets say one of these stat guys come in and wants to tell me about the 86 Celtics having an offensive rating that was 92nd all time and Lebron getting a better one with role players.

I dont give a teriyaki marinated **** about that stat or what he thinks it means.

Am I wrong?

[tpols]

I've seen blaze do that for every single metric...point out the outliers and say its all worthless. You can literally do it for any argument ever.

[3ball]

I wouldnt really consider Lebron. Doesnt make him like miles worse. You can put him in their general area. I just dont want to build the team he needs


That's fine if you have reservations about building around lebron instead of bird/magic

But the issue is that bird/magic's offenses peaked at top 3 all-time, and MJ/Curry at top 2, while lebron's peaked at #26 (heat at #62)

Even though stats mean little in any 1 year, a career of inferior offensive production gave Lebron-ball a much lower chance to winning than curry/mj/bird/magic





dont think Lebron is too selfish to change...I think hes too effective to feel he should (change).. And really...he is. But its not what id want on my team. You couldnt build a team like the Spurs with Lebron on it. A "Next man up..." everyone does his thing no matter who plays or who doesnt...chemistry driven team. He takes too much on himself and when hes off it leaves too much to be done.


Is he sufficiently effective though?

If his approach doesn't yield the best teams of his era, and he develops losing records to the guys that do (duncan, curry), then how is his style sufficiently effective?






A magic or bird team with the same players I think makes for a better TEAM....

I dont think its by chance that he won damn near 70 games with role players but 50 something with Wade, Bosh, and similar role players.

Let me take one....its probably Bird....with Magic if I dont trust my guards...


Given our hindsight - if I'm a GM, I wouldn't choose Lebron over Duncan, specifically because lebron wouldn't be coachable and might ultimately put my franchise in a steep downswing..

a gm needs to bring in ready-made veterans/mercenaries for lebron that can adjust their game and still be pretty effective.. so he can't have young teams / grow organically... and since mercenaries are adjusting their games, the teamwork is more formulaic and less then teams where guys are playing their games

Ultimately, ready-made mercenaries don't yield sustainable teamwork or chemistry that causes guys to stay together and win many rings.. ready-made guys means 1 ring, maaaybe 2, and then the team disbands at the hint of a downward trajectory or when the makeshift teamwork gets solved by the league.

Back to the gm hypothetical - lebron would never sign with my team because he probably wouldn't sign a contract that stipulated his time of possession.. I wouldn't let him hold the ball more than 4 minutes if the roster was stacked, or more than 5 minutes with any roster.. simple financial penalties would be levied at the end of the year (a payment for padding.. :lol )... The only exception would be if he agreed to start at PG (not forward) - then he could hold the ball as long as he wants (and I'd take him over Duncan)
.

[RRR3]

3ball having a complete meltdown.



Yikes.

[Kblaze8855]

I've seen blaze do that for every single metric...point out the outliers and say its all worthless. You can literally do it for any argument ever.

I’m gonna tell you the same thing I said when it was per and winshares.

When it’s dozens(going player by player...hundreds) of clearly weird results it isn’t an outlier.

It’s the obvious problem presented by measuring basketball ability by numbers.

When PER blew up and people flat out admitted they knew it couldn’t properly measure players defense or the impact of playmaking...but those same people kept using it?

I knew being right wasn’t the goal as much as an easy argument.

You know it can’t rank points or consider defense...which is why guys like magic, Kidd, Isiah, Pippen, and Russell get screwed....and knowing it? I still see people use it.

So what am I to conclude except that these people don’t care if their numbers are bullshit?

[tpols]

I’m gonna tell you the same thing I said when it was per and winshares.

When it’s dozens(going player by player...hundreds) of clearly weird results it isn’t an outlier.

It’s the obvious problem presented by measuring basketball ability by numbers.

When PER blew up and people flat out admitted they knew it couldn’t properly measure players defense or the impact of playmaking...but those same people kept using it?

I knew being right wasn’t the goal as much as an easy argument.

You know it can’t rank points or consider defense...which is why guys like magic, Kidd, Isiah, Pippen, and Russell get screwed....and knowing it? I still see people use it.

So what am I to conclude except that these people don’t care if their numbers are bullshit?


Right but this stat here compliments arguments we've all had regarding lebrons ability to parlay elite talent into a dynasty... Its direct statistcal evidence levied against expectations. Why deny it?

You agreed with the context before as shown...but just wanna add a counter balance to 3ball spam? Spam or not its still true.

[Kblaze8855]

That stat like most others only works in the context the person presenting it wants to show. If it showed the truth in general there wouldnt be so very very many obvious examples of it being wrong. You cannot create arguments that can only be used to compare two people....or two teams. The game is bigger than one man.

Tell me...why should I care about Lebrons teams offensive ratings relative to like...Bird or Magic....but not care about Jason Kidds relative to Gary Payton?

I can site Lebrons team offensive rating when it suggests im right about a preexisting argument....but what do I do when offensive rating goes in the face of my argument about someone else?

When the 85 Lakers offensive rating is worse than the 95 Sonics who had less talent...

Why doesnt that matter?

Im not arguing it does.

Im saying it doesnt.

Im asking why does it only matter when it says what we expect it to?

When it doesnt? The stat is flawed.

If its flawed its flawed. Its not flawed when you decide it is.

I would take Bird to lead a team of role players over Lebron...even if Lebron led some higher offensive rated teams of role players than Bird had with 4 hall of famers.

I do not care that that number at times favors Lebron.

Why should I care when it doesnt?

[3ball]

Tell me...why should I care about Lebrons teams offensive ratings relative to like...Bird or Magic....but not care about Jason Kidds relative to Gary Payton?


Because a career of inferior offensive production gave Lebron-ball a much lower chance to winning than curry/mj/bird/magic

It should be factored into the equation of why he won less

bird/magic's offenses peaked at top 3 all-time, and MJ/Curry at top 2, while lebron's peaked at #26 (heat at #62).. obviously, his #85 offense is partly why he won less than 16' curry (#13) and was an underdog to him - it's statistical fact.. better offense is correlated with more winning

But if you can't see that the way lebron plays leads to weaker teamwork and teams then the guys he's compared to, then I guess ur in denial

And we dont compare lebron to Kidd/Payton so we don't care how his offenses compare to theirs

[tpols]

The game is bigger than one man.


The problem is, with LeBron, its not.

[Kblaze8855]

The Lebron team you mentioned as his peak is just ahead of the 2018 warriors as an offense by this metric.

Let’s keep it simple.

Do you believe that is true from a basketball point of view? 17 Cavs were a better offense than last seasons warriors?

That how you see things? That Lebron created a better offense with Kyrie and love than Curry did with Durant and Klay?

We just throwing out the many things we know factor in and going with the base number as the truth? Or will we look deeper for the reasons that make that number largely irrelevant?

I’d just like your thoughts on that then I’ll go back to this playoff game.

[Trollsmasher]

the Heat had essentially no offensive rebounding

[3ball]

The Lebron team you mentioned as his peak is just ahead of the 2018 warriors as an offense by this metric.

Let’s keep it simple.

Do you believe that is true from a basketball point of view? 17 Cavs were a better offense than last seasons warriors?

That how you see things? That Lebron created a better offense with Kyrie and love than Curry did with Durant and Klay?

We just throwing out the many things we know factor in and going with the base number as the truth? Or will we look deeper for the reasons that make that number largely irrelevant?

I’d just like your thoughts on that then I’ll go back to this playoff game.
Is Bosh a better scorer than Barkley because he averaged 24 ppg in 2010, and Barkley averaged 21 in 1994?

Obviously not, because one season doesn't tell the story

but a CAREER of Barkley having higher averages makes Barkley better

Similarly, a career of curry/MJ/bird/magic having better offenses than lebron-ball shows that their offenses were better, thereby increasing their odds of winning

Lebron had 4 years with Heatles talent to crack the top 50 offenses - he couldn't do it.. that indicates an issue compared to other guys, especially combined with his 4 years in Cleveland that also produced inferior offensive production...

or his two 1-seeds in 09 & 10... And even his early Cleveland teams had lesser offenses than curry/MJ's early teams..

[Kblaze8855]

Career averages don

[3ball]

Career averages don’t make Barkley better. Being unstoppable in the post, better in the open court, and and a beast facing up(not that preak bosh wasn’t)make him better. Bosh is a better spot up shooter but that’s it far as scoring. Which brings us to the bottom line problem with how we view these things...

You see numbers as proof and I see skill set which I accept can’t be proven.

I don’t care what Bosh’s career average is compared to Kevin Mchale. Mchale can give me 45 if I ask him for it and the only way to prevent it is to double. Bosh has less of a desire to prove himself which is useful in a third option but less valuable when you need someone to put in work.

I’m generally just never gonna care about these numbers....and unlike most I’m willing to disregard them even when they may be on my side....because I’d feel like a joke to dismiss them when they aren’t. I’m a big picture guy.

Anyway....carry on.
Gimme a break.. many condemnations of lebron-ball are eye test - the standing around.. the over-dribbling, the lack of ball movement.. no off-ball.. the spot-up shooting

I'm just providing hardcore assist and ortg numbers to back up what we already see

The facts remain - better offenses are correlated with winning, so lebron's inferior offenses were one of the factors that hurt his winning in relation to guys like curry/magic/bird/MJ...

[tamaraw08]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You asked a Question about a subject that doesn

[90sgoat]

Lebron plays a suboptimal playground style of basketball, which underutilize his star teammates and turns playmakers into shot finishers and takes away potential team assists.

[aj1987]

Lebron plays a suboptimal playground style of basketball, which underutilize his star teammates and turns playmakers into shot finishers and takes away potential team assists.
And yet, he's the only player not named MJ with at least 4 MVP's and 3 FMVP's.

[superduper]

the Heat had essentially no offensive rebounding

But what about all those rebounds LeGOAT grabs every game?!?

Oh yeah.... they're zero impact uncontested defensive rebounds.

[Odinn]

And yet, he's the only player not named MJ with at least 4 MVP's and 3 FMVP's.
Actually Kareem is in that club. Shame that people forget that Kareem actually won the award but the media didn't want present it to an empty chair and gave it to Magic instead.
*Edit: Talking about 1980, surely.

[DMAVS41]

I’m gonna tell you the same thing I said when it was per and winshares.

When it’s dozens(going player by player...hundreds) of clearly weird results it isn’t an outlier.

It’s the obvious problem presented by measuring basketball ability by numbers.

When PER blew up and people flat out admitted they knew it couldn’t properly measure players defense or the impact of playmaking...but those same people kept using it?

I knew being right wasn’t the goal as much as an easy argument.

You know it can’t rank points or consider defense...which is why guys like magic, Kidd, Isiah, Pippen, and Russell get screwed....and knowing it? I still see people use it.

So what am I to conclude except that these people don’t care if their numbers are bullshit?

But, as has been argued about time and time again, PER is no different than fg%...

Arguing that fg% is flawed because a person is trying to use it to say Tyson Chandler is a better shooter than Curry...just seems to be missing the actual point.

No one number can represent how good a basketball player actually is.

What I can't understand is the people that think it has to be all or nothing.

A true objective analysis would involve all the stats and an analysis on skills...and how that relates to real impact

Just like with Wiggins...you said it was "all about advanced stats"...and in reality that is just false. Wiggins gets hate because he doesn't hustle, doesn't give effort on defense, just generally isn't good on defense, doesn't make enough shots, and doesn't create for his teammates.

Can he get hot and look amazing? Yep. Does he have a shitload of athleticism and potential? Yep. Does he have the skill to be a great player? Yep.

But, he isn't a great player...and that is evidenced by the exact analysis you claim to be interested in...and the stats / advanced stats.

A complete picture should include it all.

When you use a limited amount and don't include objective data...you simply won't reach reliable conclusions often enough. Humans suffer from too much confirmation bias.

All stats are "flawed" if the idiot using them thinks that a player having a higher PER or VORP or RAPM is the end all be all and that one number represents how good a player is at basketball.

And not only were the stats not designed for that...but if you really understand the metrics...why even go down the road of...

"this shit is flawed because of outliers"

That criticism is actually the "flawed" statement because it is either ignorant of what stats are...or pretending to treat them as such to attack low hanging fruit.

[stalkerforlife]

Gimme a break.. many condemnations of lebron-ball are eye test - the standing around.. the over-dribbling, the lack of ball movement.. no off-ball.. the spot-up shooting

I'm just providing hardcore assist and ortg numbers to back up what we already see

The facts remain - better offenses are correlated with winning, so lebron's inferior offenses were one of the factors that hurt his winning in relation to guys like curry/magic/bird/MJ...

Exactly.

All you have to do is watch.

[DMAVS41]

Exactly.

All you have to do is watch.

No, you need to and should do much more than that if you are trying to get at an objective reality...or at least something close to it.

Do you really think you are free from bias?

[ImKobe]

MJ never beat a 73 win team. In fact, his team won 55 games without him.

MJ's team WAS the "73 win team". He carried a team to 72-10 and then 69-13 the very next season. He didn't miss a single game from 95-98, and the Bulls were 203 - 43 in those RS games, that's a ~68 win pace over the course of 3 seasons with 3 straight championships.

The Warriors from 2015-18 were 198 - 48 with 2 championships.

MJ's 3-year run in his mid-30s was more dominant than these current Warriors. Lebron had equal/greater amount of talent around him, but he was never MJ.

[Hey Yo]

MJ's team WAS the "73 win team". He carried a team to 72-10 and then 69-13 the very next season. He didn't miss a single game from 95-98, and the Bulls were 203 - 43 in those RS games, that's a ~68 win pace over the course of 3 seasons with 3 straight championships.

The Warriors from 2015-18 were 198 - 48 with 2 championships.

MJ's 3-year run in his mid-30s was more dominant than these current Warriors. Lebron had equal/greater amount of talent around him, but he was never MJ.
That's because he was well rested from quitting the league for almost 2yrs.

LOL @ comparing the watered competition in the 90's then to what it is now.

[aj1987]

Actually Kareem is in that club. Shame that people forget that Kareem actually won the award but the media didn't want present it to an empty chair and gave it to Magic instead.
*Edit: Talking about 1980, surely.
Doesn't work like that. KAJ has 2 FMVP's.

LeBron and MJ are the only 2 players in the history of the sport with at least 3 FMVP's and 4 MVP's.