Healthy Kyrie vs prime Pippen in playoffs

[3ball]

.
Kyriem 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 23.9 ppg.. 57.3 ts.. 41% threes.. 89% ft.. 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48.. 2.9 rpg.. 4.9 apg.. 2.5 tov
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 19.8 ppg.. 52.4 ts.. 28% threes.. 72% ft.. 19.7 PER.. 0.157 ws/48.. 8.3 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 3.1 tov

Kyriem 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_advanced):. 3.6 obpm.. -0.4 dbpm.. 3.1 bpm.. outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_advanced):. 3.1 obpm... 3.6 dbpm.. 6.7 bpm.. outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots


Kyrie clearly contributed more to wins, b-b-but defense
.

[scuzzy]

what was Kyrie's #'s in playoffs before or after Lebron?








bonus points for Ingraham's playoff #'s


2x bonus MJ's #'s in Finals before Pip

[3ball]

what was Kyrie's #'s in playoffs before Lebron?



bonus points for Ingraham's


Same as Lebron's playoff stats before Hughes or Brown

Bonus points for 3ball.. :applause:

[3ball]

2x bonus MJ's #'s in Finals before Pip[/I]


Same as lebron's before Wade

And Wade > Pippen

2x bonus points for 3ball.. :applause:

[superduper]

I think I'm traumatized because I just witnessed a ****ing cold blooded murder...

[SomeBlackDude]

b-b-but defense

defense was the key to the bulls' championship runs. they faced a bunch of teams that were more talented offensively than they were, but their d was what won it all for them. pip was a huge part of that. don't turn into one of those 14 year old clueless lestans.


'96 sonics
reg season: 104.5 pts/gm (#2 in nba); 110.3 ortg (#8 in nba)
finals vs bulls: 89.2 pts/gm (-15.3 pts/gm); 106.7 ortg

'97 jazz
reg season: 103.1 pts/gm (#2 in nba); 113.6 ortg (#2 in nba)
finals: 87.2 pts/gm (-15.9 pts/gm); 103.8 ortg

'98 jazz
reg season: 101 pts/gm (#1 in nba) 112.7 ortg (#1 in the nba)
finals: 80 pts/gm (-21 pts/gm); 96.1 ortg

also, people act like kyrie is hardenesque on d, but he's a really solid defender at the pg spot. boston has been a top 5 defense with him. he's obviously not in the same stratosphere as pip in that regard, but severely underrated.

[bigkingsfan]

It's all about that D

[Real14]

Kyrie wins again!

[3ball]

.
Pippen was bad in MOST of the big series:



1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%
1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2% (9.7 on 40.4% in ecf)

1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8% (2 pts, 1-10 in game 7)

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1994 ECSF vs NYN:. 21.7 on 40.5% (worst-ever 1st option w/ goat choke)

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%

[3ball]

defense was the key to the bulls' championship runs. they faced a bunch of teams that were more talented offensively than they were, but their d was what won it all for them. pip was a huge part of that. don't turn into one of those 14 year old clueless lestans.


'96 sonics
reg season: 104.5 pts/gm (#2 in nba); 110.3 ortg (#8 in nba)
finals vs bulls: 89.2 pts/gm (-15.3 pts/gm); 106.7 ortg

'97 jazz
reg season: 103.1 pts/gm (#2 in nba); 113.6 ortg (#2 in nba)
finals: 87.2 pts/gm (-15.9 pts/gm); 103.8 ortg

'98 jazz
reg season: 101 pts/gm (#1 in nba) 112.7 ortg (#1 in the nba)
finals: 80 pts/gm (-21 pts/gm); 96.1 ortg

also, people act like kyrie is hardenesque on d, but he's a really solid defender at the pg spot. boston has been a top 5 defense with him. he's obviously not in the same stratosphere as pip in that regard, but severely underrated.
They only needed great defense because Pippen's anemic offense often meant they couldn't just outscore teams

Pippen averaged a worst-ever 15 ppg on 34% in the 96' Finals, so OF COURSE the team had to make up for it defensively.. don't turn into one of people that uses the the high-school-level media logic

Look at the previous post showing how many series the bulls had to play great D to offset pippen's anemia scoring the basketball... :confusedshrug:... he's BY FAR the worst offensive 2nd option of any dynasty, and the majority of champions
.

[SomeBlackDude]

They only needed great defense because Pippen's anemic offense often meant they couldn't just outscore teams


they needed great defense because they were playing teams that had great offensive players and systems.


BASKETBALL; Pippen Performs Magic on Defense

It was Showtime, Chicago style, tonight. And it featured all the Bulls, rather than just Michael Jordan.

Chicago's 107-86 rout of the Los Angeles Lakers in Game 2 of the National Basketball Association Finals was in sharp contrast to Game 1 on Sunday.

...

Pippen shot better tonight (8 for 16) and scored 20 points. More important, he limited Magic Johnson to 4-for-13 shooting from the field and 14 points over all.

Pippen, who was matched against James Worthy at the start of the game, switched to Johnson with 4 minutes 5 seconds remaining in the first quarter after Jordan had picked up his second foul.

"Pippen did a great job on me," Johnson said. "Once Michael got into early foul trouble, you had to expect they would make that switch.

"They were trying wear me out or take the ball out of my hands, take your pick. Scottie is more physical than Michael so the matchup was a little different." Full-Court Pressure

Pippen said, "I was trying to defend Magic full court so he could not pick apart of our offense.

"I had success against Magic tonight," said Pippen, "but whether I continue to play him is up to the coaching staff."

-ny times, 6/6/91


'91 lakers
reg. season: 106.3 ppg (13th in nba); 112.1 ortg (5th in nba)
finals: 91.6 ppg (-14.7 ppg); 104.5 ortg



On Defense, Pippen Pulls Out All the Stops

HICAGO, June 8 — Most basketball players consider playing defense barely more than a necessary evil, something to be done so the fun part of the game — shooting three-pointers, dunking and throwing no-look passes — can be resumed.

Then there's Chicago Bulls forward Scottie Pippen, who can do all that as well as anyone. But his passion and talent for shutting down opponents has, so far during these NBA playoffs, turned him into the defensive equivalent of his more offensive-minded teammate, Michael Jordan.

The Bulls' other forward, Dennis Rodman, has that same fervor for defense, but the important difference between the two is that Pippen doesn't care if anyone notices him. Rodman craves such attention, which was the Bulls' explanation for Rodman's failing to attend today's workout, which will result in fines by the NBA and the team.

"Scottie sets the tempo defensively," Jordan said. "The more active he is, the better we are. His confidence is just as strong as mine, his competitiveness is just as strong as mine. It's like playing with a twin brother. . . . Dennis is going to do whatever he can to gain attention; we understand that. With Dennis comes a lot of baggage, and this is some of the baggage you have to accept."

There was a time, though, when Pippen's commitment to the team was suspect as well, but his willingness to take on whatever defensive task the Bulls have assigned him and excelling at it have put that behind him. His defense helped the Bulls rout the Jazz, 96-54, Sunday night to take a two-games-to-one lead in the NBA Finals.

...

In the meantime he is leaving nothing to chance. His focus on stopping the Jazz is so intense that during a second-quarter timeout Sunday he crouched and stuck a forearm in the side of startled teammate Scott Burrell. Pippen was illustrating the proper defensive stance for guarding Jazz small forward Bryon Russell, Burrell having just been whistled for fouling Russell.

What Burrell received would be akin to a painter hearing from Picasso how to hold a brush or Miles Davis showing a trumpet player how to turn a grace note. And it is clear now why Jordan doesn't want to play without Pippen and why Coach Phil Jackson and Jordan fought the Bulls' management whenever trade rumors involving Pippen surfaced.

"Scottie has been the key to this team the last two, three years," Jackson said. "There's been a lot of insistence from Michael and myself that this guy is too invaluable for you to get rid of him. I don't know if there's a better defensive player."

...

Bulls practices are still of importance at this time of year because they're constantly adjusting their defensive schemes, depending upon what they learn from game to game about their opponent. And while Rodman has taken credit for keeping Malone in check, the Jazz say it has been Pippen's versatility — guarding everyone from Malone to center Greg Ostertag to point guard John Stockton — that has created the greatest problems. So much so that the Jazz complained Pippen was breaking the illegal-defense rules.

"Scottie is floating — you can use whatever term you want to use for it," said Stockton. "If he's going to come off his man, he needs to come all the way to double-team or it's illegal defense, but we didn't give him a chance to do that. You put a guy like Scottie Pippen, with his understanding of how to play defense, and you let him [do that], he's going to affect the game. And he certainly did."
-washington post, 6/8/98

tearing down teammates to prop up a guy is the lowest form of basketball fandom. it's what the weak ass lestans do. jordan doesn't need people diminishing pippen to prop up his greatness.

[TheCorporation]

Can Kyrie lead the Cavs to 55 wins without LeBron?
Can Pippen lead the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan?

Please respond.

[3ball]

they needed great defense because they were playing teams that had great offensive players and systems.



'91 lakers
reg. season: 106.3 ppg (13th in nba); 112.1 ortg (5th in nba)
finals: 91.6 ppg (-14.7 ppg); 104.5 ortg




tearing down teammates to prop up a guy is the lowest form of basketball fandom. it's what the weak ass lestans do. jordan doesn't need people diminishing pippen to prop up his greatness.
Lol at posting politically-correct media quotes - do you think Phil or MJ would ever say "yeah, pippen's 15 ppg on 34% was worst-ever".. of course not.. but it was..

and his horrific offense in most (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13557051&postcount=9) big series necessitated better defense from the bulls then they would otherwise need - it's statistical fact

He's BY FAR the worst offensive 2nd option of any dynasty, and the majority of champions

[Dray n Klay]

Lol at posting politically-correct media quotes - do you think Phil or MJ would ever say "yeah, pippen's 15 ppg on 34% was worst-ever".. of course not.. but it was..

and his horrific offense in most (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13557051&postcount=9) big series necessitated better defense from the bulls then they would otherwise need - it's statistical fact

He's BY FAR the worst offensive 2nd option of any dynasty, and the majority of champions



Was Kyrie an all-star in 2016? No


Was Pippen an all star in 1990 and 1995? Yes


How did LeBron win with Kyrie and Jordan lose with Pippen those years?

[superduper]

Was Kyrie an all-star in 2016? No


Was Pippen an all star in 1990 and 1995? Yes


How did LeBron win with Kyrie and Jordan lose with Pippen those years?

Why couldn't LeGOAT win in 2015 with no allstars?

I don't believe I've gotten a response from you yet for this question. I've asked you many times, please respond :(

[3ball]

Was Kyrie an all-star in 2016? No


Was Pippen an all star in 1990 and 1995? Yes


How did LeBron win with Kyrie and Jordan lose with Pippen those years?


Kyrien.. 2016 Finals:. 27.1 ppg on 46.8%
Pippen. 1995 ECSF:. 19.0 ppg on 40.9%
Pippen. 1990 vECF:. 16.6 ppg on 42.6%

[Dray n Klay]

Kyrien.. 2016 Finals:. 27.1 ppg on 46.8%
Pippen. 1995 ECSF:. 19.0 ppg on 40.9%
Pippen. 1990 vECF:. 16.6 ppg on 42.6%


Which of them were all-stars?

[SomeBlackDude]

Lol at posting politically-correct media quotes - do you think Phil or MJ would ever say "yeah, pippen's 15 ppg on 34% was worst-ever".. of course not.. but it was..

of course not, they were pointing out how integral his defense was to their success/championships. why would they check the scoring $tats?

you think in '59 red auberach was like "yeah we won the championship because of bill's work on d and the boards... but bill only had 9 ppg on 32% :mad: "

or after the spurs swept the cavs in '07, pop was like "yeah thanks for completely shutting down bron and humiliating him to the tune of one of the worst performances in finals history... but you only had 6 ppg on 29.6%, bruce!!! :mad: "

:lol


and his horrific offense in most (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13557051&postcount=9) big series necessitated better defense from the bulls then they would otherwise need - it's statistical fact

right, and pip was providing that better defense :confusedshrug:


He's BY FAR the worst offensive 2nd option of any dynasty, and the majority of champions

come on now, tony parker had a 14 ppg on 38.6% performance in his first championship run.

[3ball]

of course not, they were pointing out how integral his defense was to their success/championships. why would they check the scoring $tats?

you think in '59 red auberach was like "yeah we won the championship because of bill's work on d and the boards... but bill only had 9 ppg on 32% :mad: "

or after the spurs swept the cavs in '07, pop was like "yeah thanks for completely shutting down bron and humiliating him to the tune of one of the worst performances in finals history... but you only had 6 ppg on 29.6%, bruce!!! :mad: "


Russell and Bowen were 4th options or worse and have nothing to do with the offense a 2nd option normally provides a dynasty and most champions, which pippen fell short of

So the auerbach and pop corollaries are funny but don't change the fact that pippen's horrific offense in most big series necessitated better defense from the bulls then they would otherwise need





come on now, tony parker had a 14 ppg on 38.6% performance in his first championship run


I never considered the Spurs a dynasty because their rings were spread out, never back-to-back - they snuck in during down years..

either way, pippen's offense is well below-average for a dynasty 2nd option, and less than the majority of champions, i.e. the 14' spurs.... maybe not the 03' spurs, but those spurs had a big 3 and more offensive depth overall

[SomeBlackDude]

pippen's horrific offense in most big series necessitated better defense from the bulls then they would otherwise need

again... pip was the one providing a major share of that defense. he played some of the best, most effective defense the league has ever seen during that stretch. and like i showed, his contemporaries- both with the bulls and opponents, recognized that at the time.



PIPPEN EARNING MASTER'S DEGREE IN DEFENSE

The NBA Finals always has been considered different from the other major team sports, where the outcome can change because of a great individual: a pitcher, say, or a goaltender.

Like Dominik Hasek against the world in the Olympics, or Sandy Koufax against the Yankees.

Or Scottie Pippen against the Utah Jazz.

"Scottie is floating," said John Stockton, Utah's star guard who contributed five turnovers to the Jazz's stunning total of 26 in the Bulls' 96-54 masterpiece Sunday in Game 3 of the NBA Finals. "Use whatever term you want. He's coming across . . . off his man. With his length and athleticism, we're letting him come across (to disrupt the Jazz offense). He certainly did it, and I thought he was a huge key with his defense."

It was a defensive masterpiece by the Bulls, one unmatched in NBA history, not to mention Finals history. The Jazz's 54 points might have been just enough to beat the Green Bay Packers.

This wasn't a basketball game, it was Kerry Wood blowing away the Houston Astros. It was Bob Gibson in the World Series.

It was one man taking out a team.

Oh, sure, this was a team effort by the Bulls. Ron Harper was wonderful in steering Stockton toward the baseline to limit the options on the Jazz's famed pick-and-roll. So was Michael Jordan, who took just 14 shots but still had 24 points to lead the Bulls

But it was mostly Pippen, who has thwarted the Jazz like no other player, never mind a whole team. And his 10 points, four rebounds and four assists were only part of the story.

After the Bulls defeated the Jazz in the Finals last season, Stockton's summary was that the Jazz had no answer for Pippen. Utah is still failing that test.

"The luxury for us is to have a defender like Scottie who can cover probably more than one situation at a time," coach Phil Jackson said.

"Play a man, play a play. And he's able to hang tight to whomever he is playing, if it's a (Greg) Foster or a (Bryon) Russell, (Greg) Ostertag. And recover to help on the defensive set so they can't operate. And he's big enough to handle (Karl) Malone outside off the pick-and-roll."

If the Bulls win these Finals, Pippen should be the Most Valuable Player.

It's been a nice touch by Jackson, who has used Pippen somewhat differently the last two games.

In much of Game 1, Pippen played Russell, the Jazz's athletic forward who has turned reluctant shooter the last two games. Since then Pippen has been more of a power forward or even a center. That has enabled him to become sort of a free safety on defense.

He'll jump up to stop Stockton coming across and slow the Jazz, which likes to score off transition. Then Pippen falls back to a weaker offensive player--Ostertag or Foster--and is free to search out the Jazz's proclivities.

"A lot of times Phil wants me to be a help defender," Pippen said. "I'm trying to get them away from the basket and out of sets when I stop Stockton at the half-court mark. Defense is something I take a lot of pride in. In this series I'm playing more (power forward) or maybe (center)."

And he can be available at the basket--twice Pippen jumped over to take charges from Malone.

The Jazz obviously believes Pippen was in an illegal position on defense, but admitted to panicking, in a sense, by not holding the ball to make Pippen commit and then hitting the open man.

But Pippen has been too quick, his long arms and quick feet jarring the Jazz's usually strong resolve.

Something like this happened to the Jazz a month ago against a great Spurs defensive team. Utah scored 64 points in a Game 3 loss at San Antonio.

"John, Karl and myself all played terrible in that game," Jeff Hornacek recalled. "We all went to dinner in the team hotel and told each other, `You stink. No, you stink. No, you stink.' We could joke about it. That's the type of team we are."

It didn't appear the Jazz players were laughing Sunday. Coach Jerry Sloan and Malone both suggested the Bulls ran up the score at the end to try to embarrass them.

"If a game like this can't get you motivated to play, nothing else will," Malone said. "You watch the ending of a game like this, you should be ready to play the next game."

What the Jazz will do with Pippen, however, is the question.

"There have been terrific defenders in the history of the Finals," Jackson said. "You can go back to (Michael) Cooper for the Lakers, and Bobby Jones with the 76ers and other players who have played outstanding defense. The majority of those players are great one-on-one players. Scottie is able to be a one-man wrecking crew."

-chicago tribune, 6/9/98

^from the time of the bulls last championship, not just somebody looking at a stat sheet 20 years later.

honestly, right now you're coming off like a manny or dray 'n klay with the 'buh buh buh the $tats' line of reasoning. nvm that the cavs got blown out in record fashion, the $tats say bron had the bestest finals evur. the eye test knows better.

[Kblaze8855]

Kyrie clearly contributed more to wins, b-b-but defense

Long as you dont bring up defense in any other comparison of two players fine. But be consistent. If all time great defense doesnt matter it doesnt matter. Dont have it matter when you decide it does.

[Uncle Drew]

Who did better in the playoffs leading their respective team?

[Kblaze8855]

For people who do accept defense as a part of basketball enjoy Kobes breakdown of Scotties defense


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOoWZNp0AlA


I think all rational people will find it interesting.

[Real14]

Who did better in the playoffs leading their respective team?Irving was hurt. Next?

[SomeBlackDude]

For people who do accept defense as a part of basketball enjoy Kobes breakdown of Scotties defense


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOoWZNp0AlA


I think all rational people will find it interesting.

one of my favorite mixes.

part i (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk)

part ii (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1YchiFv-5M)

[Ainosterhaspie]

Kyriem 16-17'[/url]:. 3.6 obpm.. -0.4 dbpm.. 3.1 bpm.. outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_advanced):. 3.1 obpm... 3.6 dbpm.. 6.7 bpm.. outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots
So once you account for Kyrie's subpar defense, he contributes as much as Scottie and that's without taking into account Scottie's defense. :eek:

[And1AllDay]

Can Kyrie lead the Cavs to 55 wins without LeBron?
Can Pippen lead the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan?

Please respond.

Since 3baLLLLL gonna duck this one Ill bite

Can Kyrie lead the Cavs to 55 wins without LeBron?
No way in hell, dude averaged 33 games a season before Bron showed up

Can Pippen lead the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan?
Absolutely in fact he did this in 94' season

[SomeBlackDude]

Since 3baLLLLL gonna duck this one Ill bite

Can Kyrie lead the Cavs to 55 wins without LeBron?
No way in hell, dude averaged 33 games a season before Bron showed up

Can Pippen lead the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan?
Absolutely in fact he did this in 94' season

but can pippen lead the bulls to a championship against the barkley suns without jordan... only to later lose against the same squad with jordan?

https://i.postimg.cc/0QVtzgfk/wade7-300-060620.jpg

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/218/908/247.gif