Is the value Phil Jax being ignored in the debate?

[tamaraw08]

Endless dabate who is better between Lebron and MJ or Kyrie or Pippen, heck I even saw a title thread on how Kobe won "highhandedly" took the Lakers to win and yet OP mentioned about 2nd options..:facepalm
MJ never lost a finals series. Kobe with less help won 2 rings.
MJ less Bulls winning 55 games.
Kobe without Phil and Shaq got eliminated last on defense rating just winning 34 wins in 2004-05.
Phil returns to LA and they win 45 games with Kwame and Smush Parker in the starting lineup..

[Odinn]

All of the all-time great players worked with all-time great coaches.
All of the all-time great coaches worked with all-time great players.

Shaq won his rings with P-Jax and Riley.
MJ and Kobe won their rings with P-Jax.
Russell with Auerbach.
Zeke with Daly.
Duncan with Pop.
Magic with Riley.
The list goes on.

I guess the only one who had not-so-great coach while winning is Bird. But that's because K.C. Jones coached very briefly after the Celtics.

[superduper]

What has Phil won without 3 all time great players being gifted to him?

[SouBeachTalents]

What has Phil won without 3 all time great players being gifted to him?
What have those 3 all-time great players won without him

[superduper]

What have those 3 all-time great players won without him

Nice deflection

[Manny98]

LeBron would win at least 8 championships if he had a coach of Phil Jacksons caliber his entire career

[LAmbruh]

What have those 3 all-time great players won without him
MDE comes out on top again :bowdown:

[Uncle Drew]

What have those 3 all-time great players won without him
:oldlol: First thought that popped into my head upon reading that post as well. It's as if these dudes post and then start thinking.

[Phoenix]

Shaq, Kobe, and MJ are undeniably great players without Phil. He had no bearing on them being great individual players, but he helped harness that talent into champions. On the other hand, he has absolutely no coaching record to speak of to gauge what he can do with 'less that all-time great' talent. Even the 94 Bulls featured a top 5 player in Pippen that year plus quality role players with a championship pedigree. Ultimately their legacies are tied to each other, but we don't know what Phil does without that caliber of talent spearheading his squads.

[superduper]

:oldlol: First thought that popped into my head upon reading that post as well. It's as if these dudes post and then start thinking.

My question is equally as unanswerable to the shook if you didn't notice :cheers:

[superduper]

Shaq, Kobe, and MJ are undeniably great players without Phil. He had no bearing on them being great individual players, but he helped harness that talent into champions. On the other hand, he has absolutely no coaching record to speak of to gauge what he can do with 'less that all-time great' talent. Even the 94 Bulls featured a top 5 player in Pippen that year plus quality role players with a championship pedigree. Ultimately their legacies are tied to each other, but we don't know what Phil does without that caliber of talent spearheading his squads.

:applause:

[warriorfan]

PJ wouldn’t be having any of that LeBron Ball shit and Bron would run him out of town rather than be a coachable player that plays within a team’s offense

[superduper]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]PJ wouldn

[LAmbruh]

Lebron takes Phil Jackson's bench players and turns them into HOF coaches

[superduper]

Lebron takes Phil Jackson's bench players and turns them into HOF coaches

Curry went 16-0 with Luke. There are literally no excuses.

[D-Wait]

Curry went 16-0 with Luke. There are literally no excuses.

Warriors didn't sweep the whole playoffs. Cavs won a game in 2017.

[Bronbron23]

LeBron would win at least 8 championships if he had a coach of Phil Jacksons caliber his entire career
I'm not sure LeBron could deal with Phil tbh. Phil's system would take the ball out of brons hands and his stats would be a little less impressive. Not sure Bron would like that. If he could then yeah he could probably win 8. Mj could of won 8 or more also though if he didn't leave for baseball for a couple years and then retire on top in 98

[superduper]

Warriors didn't sweep the whole playoffs. Cavs won a game in 2017.

Talking about reg season when Kerr was out with his spinal/back issues.

[eliteballer]

What debate?

We don't count juicers like LeRoid.

[RRR3]

What debate?

We don't count juicers like LeRoid.
Says the JuiceBe stan.


LeBron is clean. You’re just jealous JuiceBe wasn’t good enough to win without roiding like LeNatural.

[eliteballer]

[QUOTE=RRR3]Says the JuiceBe stan.


LeBron is clean. You

[RRR3]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PointlessUntriedFirecrest-size_restricted.gif
:roll:

[Odinn]

Shaq, Kobe, and MJ are undeniably great players without Phil. He had no bearing on them being great individual players, but he helped harness that talent into champions. On the other hand, he has absolutely no coaching record to speak of to gauge what he can do with 'less that all-time great' talent. Even the 94 Bulls featured a top 5 player in Pippen that year plus quality role players with a championship pedigree. Ultimately their legacies are tied to each other, but we don't know what Phil does without that caliber of talent spearheading his squads.
Yeah. But his winning record is so great, if I have an all-time great on my team, Jackson would be my choice to coach the team.

He coached a team in the NBA in 20 seasons.
He got a contending team in 16 season.
From 1989-90 to 1992-93
From 1995-96 to 1997-98
From 1999-00 to 2003-04
From 2007-08 to 2010-11
He made it to NBA Finals 13 times and won 11 of them.

There's no denying that Jackson was blessed with MJ&Pippen, Shaq&Kobe and Kobe&Gasol duos. But 11 out of 16 pretty damn good. I don't see him losing a matchup like Pop did in '11 against the Grizzlies.

[kennethgriffen]

the thing about phil is that as much as he helps "the other lesser guys" he hurt kobe individually


kobe realistically should have had 6-7 years averaging 35+ppg


but then the team success wouldn't have been as great


he would have won more league mvps and maybe topped wilt.. maybe caught kareem under a different timeline with no achilles rupture



so a coach that puts the handcuffs on a guy so the others can get their touches in their spots can be a big bonus but at the same time a huge negative... it really all depends on the narrative going around at the time on what makes a player great

sadly the narrative today is about stats and winning titles isn't even half as important anymore. so realistically kobe would have been better off without phil to guys like nick wright, colin cowherd, shannon sharpe, max kellerman etc...


in reality the ability for a star player to sacrifice stats and buy into a system shouldn't be looked at as a negative. its quite the opposite. this is why lebron is such a loser in many peoples eyes. he never would have been able to play under phils style. lebron needs his padded assists numbers. he can't play off the ball either.

[tpols]

the value of phil in a lebron vs ___ debate is nil because we know lebron couldnt operate under phil's authority. remember posse gate? and pattern of lebron always butting heads with good coaches to get puppets installed in their place?

[egokiller]

Lebron doesn't move efficiently enough without the ball to ever work in PJ system. Those two would be a horrible player coach match up. The stupidity on here from lefail stans is at a new high. :oldlol:

[Ben Simmons 25]

Shaq, Kobe, and MJ are undeniably great players without Phil. He had no bearing on them being great individual players, but he helped harness that talent into champions. On the other hand, he has absolutely no coaching record to speak of to gauge what he can do with 'less that all-time great' talent. Even the 94 Bulls featured a top 5 player in Pippen that year plus quality role players with a championship pedigree. Ultimately their legacies are tied to each other, but we don't know what Phil does without that caliber of talent spearheading his squads.

To an extent you're right but the best examples that tend to point away from this and to point towards the fact that indeed Phil is an absolutely great all time coach are... Shaq becoming league MVP in his first year under Phil Jackson for the first time in his career and not only being MVP but damn near the first unanimous MVP in league history save a single vote for Allen Iverson that was probably cast out of spite or something other than sound logic.

And the fact that the Bulls didn't drop off in regular season wins pretty much at all when Jordan retired the first time despite losing the best player in the league and replacing him with rookie Tony Kukoc, an admittedly good player but certainly not Jordan level player.

And finally as mentioned, him coming back to the Lakers and adding almost 10 regular season wins right off the bat despite no other roster upgrades except a rookie Andrew Bynum who averaged 7 mpg.

Clearly, Phil Jackson is one of the GOAT coaches. Is he the GOAT coach? That's impossible to say, for the reasons you mentioned. He didn't get enough burn without one of the best players in the league being on his teams... but still... history suggests he was more than just along for the ride.

[kennethgriffen]

To an extent you're right but the best examples that tend to point away from this and to point towards the fact that indeed Phil is an absolutely great all time coach are... Shaq becoming league MVP in his first year under Phil Jackson for the first time in his career and not only being MVP but damn near the first unanimous MVP in league history save a single vote for Allen Iverson that was probably cast out of spite or something other than sound logic.

And the fact that the Bulls didn't drop off in regular season wins pretty much at all when Jordan retired the first time despite losing the best player in the league and replacing him with rookie Tony Kukoc, an admittedly good player but certainly not Jordan level player.

And finally as mentioned, him coming back to the Lakers and adding almost 10 regular season wins right off the bat despite no other roster upgrades except a rookie Andrew Bynum who averaged 7 mpg.

Clearly, Phil Jackson is one of the GOAT coaches. Is he the GOAT coach? That's impossible to say, for the reasons you mentioned. He didn't get enough burn without one of the best players in the league being on his teams... but still... history suggests he was more than just along for the ride.


a coach is only as good as his star player is willing to let him be


if they can't fit in a system or aren't willing to or hold racist agendas then a guys HOF career can be snuffed out pretty quick



https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2014/06/Mideast-Israel-David-_Horo1.jpg



a prime kobe with blatt/kyrie/love/shooters/defenders would challenge for the next 7-8 years and win at least half of the time even against a stacked warriors squad

[jstern]

This seems desperate now.

[kennethgriffen]

:roll:


how old are you

[Smoke117]

I'm not sure LeBron could deal with Phil tbh. Phil's system would take the ball out of brons hands and his stats would be a little less impressive. Not sure Bron would like that. If he could then yeah he could probably win 8. Mj could of won 8 or more also though if he didn't leave for baseball for a couple years and then retire on top in 98

Tex Winter's* system.

[PickernRoller]

OP's only after one user...3ball.

Don't show up.

[DidUSaySomethin]

a coach is only as good as his star player is willing to let him be


if they can't fit in a system or aren't willing to or hold racist agendas then a guys HOF career can be snuffed out pretty quick



https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2014/06/Mideast-Israel-David-_Horo1.jpg



a prime kobe with blatt/kyrie/love/shooters/defenders would challenge for the next 7-8 years and win at least half of the time even against a stacked warriors squad

prime kobe had a mediocre record w/o shaq in the early 00s and missed the playoffs in his prime (w/ odom as the #2) lol

[DidUSaySomethin]

Endless dabate who is better between Lebron and MJ or Kyrie or Pippen, heck I even saw a title thread on how Kobe won "highhandedly" took the Lakers to win and yet OP mentioned about 2nd options..:facepalm
MJ never lost a finals series. Kobe with less help won 2 rings.
MJ less Bulls winning 55 games.
Kobe without Phil and Shaq got eliminated last on defense rating just winning 34 wins in 2004-05.
Phil returns to LA and they win 45 games with Kwame and Smush Parker in the starting lineup..

jordan and kobe have a combined 9 losing seasons w/o phil... damn

[kennethgriffen]

prime kobe had a mediocre record w/o shaq in the early 00s and missed the playoffs in his prime (w/ odom as the #2) lol



yeah thats the same thing


kobe and ( 0 allstar games, 13ppg career odom ) both missing nearly 20 games and 10 new players all learning a new system under a coach that quit halfway through after management ordered them to tank


thats the same as what a prime healthy kobe with 2 other allstars and a legendary coach would accomplish


him just with one other allstar and a great coach got 2 titles.. but adding 1 more allstar ontop of that wouldn't be enough

:roll:

[tamaraw08]

the value of phil in a lebron vs ___ debate is nil because we know lebron couldnt operate under phil's authority. remember posse gate? and pattern of lebron always butting heads with good coaches to get puppets installed in their place?

Lebron won with Spoelstra and Lue, reached the finals with Mike Brown and even Blatt.
His first few years he couldn't shoot and has developed his shot eventually.
He didn't have any sort of low post moves before too.
Also the myth of not having any off ball game.
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA7nFXH6R_4
So I can't really say for sure Lebron will not work out well with a better coach, not necessarily Phil but with other very good coaches like Pops or even Carlisle.
I have said it many times, I still think MJ is still GOAT given the fact that him with Phil have NEVER lost and 3ball has won me over in terms of thinking Bulls have fair chance vs GSW esp after Houston had that team on the ropes with Harden shooting very badly. I just think it's just way too many posters here simply ignore Phil's value to both MJ and Pippen.

[iamgine]

It's because no one could be sure how much impact an ATG coach has vs a good coach like Spoelstra or Brad Stevens.

[SomeBlackDude]

wasn't the zen master the coach of the buffalo octaroons or some shit like that and some rec league team in puerto rico before he became the bulls coach?

jordan made that dude, not the other way around.

and tex winter (sam barry) was the architect of the triangle. phil was just some lsd-abusing hippie who took the credit for it.

[Mr.GOAT2408]

His biggest strength was managing personalities. It was useful with his first stint with the Lakers. That's about as much credit as I can give him.

Xs and Os were not his thing, however.

[Uncle Drew]

wasn't the zen master the coach of the buffalo octaroons or some shit like that and some rec league team in puerto rico before he became the bulls coach?

jordan made that dude, not the other way around.

and tex winter (sam barry) was the architect of the triangle. phil was just some lsd-abusing hippie who took the credit for it.
Oh, for real? So Jordan must have won a lot prior to Jackson, right?

[nayte]

I have no doubts that Phil is a great coach but as others have said he did pick his teams

[Phoenix]

Yeah. But his winning record is so great, if I have an all-time great on my team, Jackson would be my choice to coach the team.

He coached a team in the NBA in 20 seasons.
He got a contending team in 16 season.
From 1989-90 to 1992-93
From 1995-96 to 1997-98
From 1999-00 to 2003-04
From 2007-08 to 2010-11
He made it to NBA Finals 13 times and won 11 of them.

There's no denying that Jackson was blessed with MJ&Pippen, Shaq&Kobe and Kobe&Gasol duos. But 11 out of 16 pretty damn good. I don't see him losing a matchup like Pop did in '11 against the Grizzlies.

I don't know if you'd necessarily take him over Gregg Popovich, Larry Brown, Chuck Daley, Pat Riley. I'm throwing names out off the top of my head, but I don't think the 90's Bulls are any less successful with those coaches and even a few others I may have omitted at the moment. Tex Winter was the real X's and O's guy anyways, so if we're having a hard time separating Kobe/Shaq/MJ's 'team success' from Phil, I don't think you can distinguish Phil from Tex in the equation either.

[Phoenix]

To an extent you're right but the best examples that tend to point away from this and to point towards the fact that indeed Phil is an absolutely great all time coach are... Shaq becoming league MVP in his first year under Phil Jackson for the first time in his career and not only being MVP but damn near the first unanimous MVP in league history save a single vote for Allen Iverson that was probably cast out of spite or something other than sound logic.

And the fact that the Bulls didn't drop off in regular season wins pretty much at all when Jordan retired the first time despite losing the best player in the league and replacing him with rookie Tony Kukoc, an admittedly good player but certainly not Jordan level player.

And finally as mentioned, him coming back to the Lakers and adding almost 10 regular season wins right off the bat despite no other roster upgrades except a rookie Andrew Bynum who averaged 7 mpg.

Clearly, Phil Jackson is one of the GOAT coaches. Is he the GOAT coach? That's impossible to say, for the reasons you mentioned. He didn't get enough burn without one of the best players in the league being on his teams... but still... history suggests he was more than just along for the ride.

True, but bear in mind that Shaq was an MVP candidate and had already made it to the finals before Phil arrived. MJ had already won league MVP, defensive player of the year and was considered the best player in the league when Phil came onboard. Those two players were incredible posts for which to build a championship system on. So as stated before, I give credit to Phil for massaging the egos, getting buy-in, personnel management and the nurturing that lifted those two to champions, but they were quite clearly all-time great level players before he coached them for a single game. Having Kobe and Pip develop into superstars alongside them was almost an embarrassment of riches when you have MJ/Shaq as the starting points. He deserves credit, but IMHO only 'to an extent'.

[tamaraw08]

True, but bear in mind that Shaq was an MVP candidate and had already made it to the finals before Phil arrived. MJ had already won league MVP, defensive player of the year and was considered the best player in the league when Phil came onboard. Those two players were incredible posts for which to build a championship system on. So as stated before, I give credit to Phil for massaging the egos, getting buy-in, personnel management and the nurturing that lifted those two to champions, but they were quite clearly all-time great level players before he coached them for a single game. Having Kobe and Pip develop into superstars alongside them was almost an embarrassment of riches when you have MJ/Shaq as the starting points. He deserves credit, but IMHO only 'to an extent'.

So MJ and Shaq's egos got massaged and nurtured, you can add Kobe to that, but what happened AFTER when Phil was not coaching them. Yes Shaq won again with another great coach like Riley...There's more to just management and buying in. There is such a thing like adjustments esp when you go into the playoffs and you have to beat a team for 4 games.
There are very good regular season coaches like the late Flip Saunders, Mike D'Antoni, George Karl, Del Harris etc etc helping their teams to win a ton of games consistently in the regular season but playoffs start then somehow couldn't get past certain teams even when they have really good players.

[tamaraw08]

wasn't the zen master the coach of the buffalo octaroons or some shit like that and some rec league team in puerto rico before he became the bulls coach?

jordan made that dude, not the other way around.

and tex winter (sam barry) was the architect of the triangle. phil was just some lsd-abusing hippie who took the credit for it.

so freaking what if he coached a HS team or any bad team, any coach would have to start somewhere.
MJ made him, what about the other coaches, how successful was MJ and Kobe BEFORE AND AFTER PHIL?:confusedshrug:
MJ finally wins after years of frustration and then he take a break, Bulls still win 55 games. Like a dog returning to his vomit, he rehires Doug Collins at Washington and FAILS.
Kobe tasted and tried Tomjanovich, drove him out there and wins 34 games. Phil comes back and coached the freaking Smush and Sasha at his PG rotation and leads them to the playoffs, add Kwame to the mix and let that sink in for a minute. :facepalm Phil leaves and Kobe won more rings?:confusedshrug:

[Rocket]

Phil was great yet still somewhat overrated. Any good coach can win titles with superstars especially with the GOAT and others who are at least in the conversation for GOAT.

[Phoenix]

So MJ and Shaq's egos got massaged and nurtured, you can add Kobe to that, but what happened AFTER when Phil was not coaching them. Yes Shaq won again with another great coach like Riley...There's more to just management and buying in. There is such a thing like adjustments esp when you go into the playoffs and you have to beat a team for 4 games.
There are very good regular season coaches like the late Flip Saunders, Mike D'Antoni, George Karl, Del Harris etc etc helping their teams to win a ton of games consistently in the regular season but playoffs start then somehow couldn't get past certain teams even when they have really good players.

What happened after Phil stopped coaching MJ? He retired...then came back at 39 to a mediocre team coached by someone else. What are you expecting him to do at that point, win a title at 40 with Richard Hamilton or Stackhouse as his sidekicks? What you're saying there doesn't prove much of anything especially with MJ and like you said, Shaq won a title afterwards albeit with another all-time great coach in Riley. Which plays to my point, there's a number of other great coaches that could have maximized what those players achieved in a team setting. It's like we're arguing that MJ and Shaq ONLY could win with him, and ONLY in that system? Not buying it. Phil hitched his wagon to a couple of 26 year old MVP caliber players as they were ascending into their peaks.

We can dance all around the issue, the point is Shaq and MJ were established great players irrespective of Phil Jackson. He has no record of coaching success to argue that he warrants equal credit for the championships he won with those players. No record of building a team from scratch without all-time great talent. You'd have an easier time finding a Jackson replacement than you would a 2000-2002 Shaq or 91-93/96-98 MJ, literally 2 of the top 5 most dominant players in the history of the league.

[3ball]

What have those 3 all-time great players won without him
More than Phil won without them

i.e. MVP, 3 scoring titles, DPOY, goat candidate

Every all-time great gets good coaching and personel over the course of a 15 year career because front offices are willing to go the extra mile for the truly great ones.. i.e. even Sterling opened up his wallet for cp3 and got doc rivers..

lebron had a coach of the year and great defensive coach (brown)... and goat-level organization (Riley)... and joined up with insane talent... And big acquisitions like Jamison, Mo, Shaq, Hughes, IT, Rose - these guys were all > Horace and also 89' pippen.... So lebron wanted for nothing.. he also got a renowned Euro coach to install a system, which he rejected..

[superduper]

More than Phil won without them

i.e. MVP, 3 scoring titles, DPOY, goat candidate

https://media.giphy.com/media/10XhlZmpABnthm/giphy.gif

[Stephonit]

More than Phil won without them
i.e. MVP, 3 scoring titles, DPOY, goat candidate


Looks like Phil is still underrated. With Phil you get championships. It is remarkable how these talented guys he coached didn't win rings until he got a hold of them.

[Phoenix]

Looks like Phil is still underrated. With Phil you get championships. It is remarkable how these talented guys he coached didn't win rings until he got a hold of them.

The Bulls were heading to the finals and likely championships regardless. 6? Don't know, but not the main point. Why do I say that? Because if we go by the narrative that 'MJ only won when Boston and Detroit got old'.........OK......so after 1990 once the Celts and Pistons 'aged' who was beating Chicago out east regardless of whether Phil Jackson was coaching the team? Chicago was already beating Cleveland and New York before Phil arrived, and those were basically the next teams in the eastern pecking order. Phil was a great coach, but the Bulls train had already left the station and he basically boarded at the 'second to last' stop.


Shaq made the finals in year 3 and ran into peak Hakeem playing out of his mind and a cast of players more ready to win. They certainly didn't lose because Shaq wasn't good enough even back then. And if Hakeem has lost prior to the finals, who else is fukking with Shaq that year from the west? The Admiral, as reigning MVP, played Hakeem much worse than a 3rd year Shaq did. Malone and Stockton? Mailman isn't outplaying Shaq either. I don't think we realize how close a 'pre peak' Shaq was to actually winning a title that had sweet fukk all to do with Phil Jackson's coaching.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Also the myth of not having any off ball game.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA7nFXH6R_4
Thanks for that. The idea that LeBron can't/won't play off ball has always been ridiculous.

One thing that stands out from that compilation is how few of the passes to James came from Irving. Irving isn't that great a playmaker. He's outstanding in isos attacking the basket, but making good passes to cutters isn't a strength. He has too much tunnel vision for taking his man off the dribble. That was a big part of the limit to installing a system when he was there.

[tamaraw08]

What happened after Phil stopped coaching MJ? He retired...then came back at 39 to a mediocre team coached by someone else. What are you expecting him to do at that point, win a title at 40 with Richard Hamilton or Stackhouse as his sidekicks? What you're saying there doesn't prove much of anything especially with MJ and like you said, Shaq won a title afterwards albeit with another all-time great coach in Riley. Which plays to my point, there's a number of other great coaches that could have maximized what those players achieved in a team setting. It's like we're arguing that MJ and Shaq ONLY could win with him, and ONLY in that system? Not buying it. Phil hitched his wagon to a couple of 26 year old MVP caliber players as they were ascending into their peaks.

We can dance all around the issue, the point is Shaq and MJ were established great players irrespective of Phil Jackson. He has no record of coaching success to argue that he warrants equal credit for the championships he won with those players. No record of building a team from scratch without all-time great talent. You'd have an easier time finding a Jackson replacement than you would a 2000-2002 Shaq or 91-93/96-98 MJ, literally 2 of the top 5 most dominant players in the history of the league.

Frankly, your point doesn't make sense at all. So freaking what if a player was already great, no coach for any matter will change that. Ask Barkley, or Karl Malone or Westbrook or Harden etc etc these guys thrived and were great players.
Having said that Great players need good coaches to implement a great system and make appropriate adjustments to win it all. Shaq and MJ were great but didn't win it until they were coached by Phil. That was my point in the original thread, I never said Phil was directly responsible in making them great players.
Can Phil win a ring without a great player, of course not, no COACH can.
MJ handpicked Doug Collins at Washington, yes he was old but it certainly didn't helped the team when their offensive sets were predictable and lack continuity.
Same with the PEAK Kobe with Tomjanovich AND Mike Brown and D'Antoni.

[Phoenix]

Frankly, your point doesn't make sense at all. So freaking what if a player was already great, no coach for any matter will change that. Ask Barkley, or Karl Malone or Westbrook or Harden etc etc these guys thrived and were great players.
Having said that Great players need good coaches to implement a great system and make appropriate adjustments to win it all. Shaq and MJ were great but didn't win it until they were coached by Phil. That was my point in the original thread, I never said Phil was directly responsible in making them great players.



It's not a point that has to make sense or not based on your own opinion on the topic. There are some indisputable facts that come into play here, and from those facts we can then draw some reasonable conclusions:

Those guys didn't win titles until Phil. In MJ's case, he didn't win a single one without Phil. In Shaq's case, 3 of his 4 titles came with Phil. That's fact.

MJ and Shaq were already MVP level, all time great players before Phil. That's fact.

Phil, without Shaq, MJ and Kobe( or Scottie in 94), has no coaching record at the NBA level to assess the extent of his coaching talents without an MVP caliber talent. That's fact.

So now that those three facts, not points coming down to 'sense', have been stripped down to the simplest form to comprehend, let's contextualize their success as champions relative to each other. My contention is that there's a number of coaches that could have replaced Phil and achieved similar results,far more than the number of players you could have replaced MJ or Shaq with, and have a hope in hell of duplicating what they brought to their championship teams. I'm not arguing that great coaches don't need great players, and the reverse. I'm not arguing that you said anything about Phil being responsible for MJ and Shaq's own greatness as singular talents.

But there's something about 'MJ and Shaq didn't win before Phil' that reeks as if they were somehow failed players, or having failed careers and were saved by Phil's genius, born of this 'all or nothing' mentality. Championships aren't handed out like Chiclets. To win 1, let alone 6, takes more than simply having the best player on the floor every night. MJ was 6 years into his career( 5 years if you ignore that he missed the majority of the 86 season). Shaq was 8 years in. They were 26 and 27 respectively when Phil came onboard, both too young into their careers to act as if they wouldn't have been anything but highly prolific statistically dominant losers without Phil. Because that's what I feel is being inferred by the 'they didn't win until Phil' line. It's almost akin to saying they don't win without Phil....period.... and I simply don't believe that would have been the case.

What is being argued, on my end, is whether Phil warrants more credit than he actually gets, per the thread title 'Is the value Phil Jax being ignored in the debate'. Which is inferring that Phil, without any record of coaching success without MVP caliber lead players, is somehow as indispensable as those players. That circumstances, picking the right situation has no bearing in his coaching record. That's what I'm taking from the greater discussion here, and my view is that, no, Phil is not as important to those championships as his three transcendent players were. He deserves credit, but no more than harnessing what was already there, something that quite a number of coaches likely achieve albeit in a different coaching/philosophical manner.