Harden is the GOAT foul drawer

[StrongLurk]

Harden's free throw rate is as much of an outlier as Curry's 3 point shooting. Seriously, his FTR over these last 6 years or so is pretty much double any other player in NBA history...which is also crazy since he shoots like 10 threes a game.

I know Harden's made more free throws than field goals and also I remember hearing one season he shot as many free throws off threes as the REST OF THE NBA (someone fact check this last part).

I hate his flopping ass even though he is a highly skilled player.

More than anything I'm just...in awe of seeing this shit on paper.

During this 17 game crazy streak he is on, he is shooting like 15 threes AND 15 free throws a game...it just shouldn't be possible.

[kennethgriffen]

it only works today though


he'd be laughed out of the gym if he tried this shit back in the 80's/90's/early 00's


after the first 2-3 no call flop/flails launching the ball over the backboard he'd be benched

[Marchesk]

Someone posted that he's been averaging 15 three attempts along with 14 FTA during his 30 point stretch. His free throw attempts have gone up as he's taken more threes.

Tonight he was 17/18 from the line. Never thought a three point shooter would consistently lead the league in free throws (until Harden went to Houston).

[imdaman99]

it only works today though

he'd be laughed out of the gym if he tried this shit back in the 80's/90's/early 00's

after the first 2-3 flop/flails launching the ball over the backboard he'd be benched
You act like he wouldn't be capable to adapt. If he played in an era that doesn't call those fouls, I have a hard time believing he would be pulling that shit all game, every game. Might try it once in the 1st quarter every game and it never gets called so he would find other ways to score. He has skill :facepalm

[Smoke117]

You act like he wouldn't be capable to adapt. If he played in an era that doesn't call those fouls, I have a hard time believing he would be pulling that shit every game. Might try it once in the 1st quarter every game and it never gets called so he would find other ways to score. He has skill :facepalm

meltdown.

[Smoke117]

Harden's free throw rate is as much of an outlier as Curry's 3 point shooting. Seriously, his FTR over these last 6 years or so is pretty much double any other player in NBA history...which is also crazy since he shoots like 10 threes a game.

I know Harden's made more free throws than field goals and also I remember hearing one season he shot as many free throws off threes as the REST OF THE NBA (someone fact check this last part).

I hate his flopping ass even though he is a highly skilled player.

More than anything I'm just...in awe of seeing this shit on paper.

During this 17 game crazy streak he is on, he is shooting like 15 threes AND 15 free throws a game...it just shouldn't be possible.


That only looks like that because most of the time he attacks the rim he gets fouled and doesn't actually take a shot. If I had to guess what percentage of his shots at the rim end in FT's to FG I'd guess 70% ft's to 30% actual fg.

[StrongLurk]

it only works today though


he'd be laughed out of the gym if he tried this shit back in the 80's/90's/early 00's


after the first 2-3 no call flop/flails launching the ball over the backboard he'd be benched

I honestly have no idea how he would play in previous eras...I mean the dude IS crazy skilled...but has made flopping/foul drawing a BIG part of his game. Even without it he could be a very good player but his game is so different than anyone else in previous generations.

He shoots more threes than teams did in the 90s...and they are almost all heavy iso shots drilled in the face of defenders. But then he falls on half the threes for NO reason and refs still get baited into calling fouls.

He's easily the least enjoyable "superstar" I've ever watched. He makes me want to find him and knock him the f out (of course I couldn't but he physically makes me angry watching him).

[SaltyMeatballs]

You act like he wouldn't be capable to adapt. If he played in an era that doesn't call those fouls, I have a hard time believing he would be pulling that shit all game, every game. Might try it once in the 1st quarter every game and it never gets called so he would find other ways to score. He has skill :facepalm
Facts

[kennethgriffen]

You act like he wouldn't be capable to adapt. If he played in an era that doesn't call those fouls, I have a hard time believing he would be pulling that shit all game, every game. Might try it once in the 1st quarter every game and it never gets called so he would find other ways to score. He has skill :facepalm


he's capable and would adapt but he wouldn't be nearly as good. he'd be another mitch richmond at best


https://i.cdn.turner.com/drp/nba/kings/sites/default/files/mitch-richmond-history-main-image-v4.jpg

[imdaman99]

meltdown.
You on kenny's payroll now? Bring it son.

[Smoke117]

You on kenny's payroll now? Bring it son.

Settle down, tiger. :oldlol:

[NBAGOAT]

guys were going to the foul line more in the 90s(anyone can look it up). I'm fairly confident harden would go to the foul line a lot still.

Reggie Miller is the 90's outlier with his high 3pt rate and pretty high ftr(40%) and harden has gone a level beyond the tricks Reggie used to draw fouls and ofc also drives way more.

I just cant ignore the report that Harden was even doing this shit in practice with OKC getting to the line often and pissing off KD/WB.

[LoneyROY7]

he's capable and would adapt but he wouldn't be nearly as good. he'd be another mitch richmond at best


https://i.cdn.turner.com/drp/nba/kings/sites/default/files/mitch-richmond-history-main-image-v4.jpg

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

The ignorance.

[iamgine]

Not really an outlier. Barkley & Robinson had more while attempting less shots. Wade, MJ, Westbrook pretty much equaled Harden. It's not something unique but it's true Harden is one of the best at it.

[bobopenguin]

ok i have seen enough.

james harden is mvp this year. I am now officially rockets fans. Fk lakers. :rockon:

[Smoke117]

Not really an outlier. Barkley & Robinson had more while attempting less shots. Wade, MJ, Westbrook pretty much equaled Harden. It's not something unique but it's true Harden is one of the best at it.

Barkley and Robinson were getting fouled because once they were in the vicinity of the rim you had to foul them or give up the basket. They weren't conning their way to the line. As far as Wade goes, no perimeter player has ever relentlessly attacked the rim like he did when he he was young and had his legs. Jordan, frankly, got a lot of bullshit calls. The fact that he averaged the most since he was 25 in 98 (8.8) was just hilariously pathetic. The Jordan Rules indeed.

[iamgine]

Barkley and Robinson were getting fouled because once they were in the vicinity of the rim you had to foul them or give up the basket. They weren't conning their way to the line. As far as Wade goes, no perimeter player has ever relentlessly attacked the rim like he did when he he was young and had his legs. Jordan, frankly, got a lot of bullshit calls. The fact that he averaged the most since he was 25 in 98 (8.8) was just hilariously pathetic. The Jordan Rules indeed.
Well yes we know they all got it on different ways. i.e Shaq & Howard cause they're bad FT shooter.

[StrongLurk]

Not really an outlier. Barkley & Robinson had more while attempting less shots. Wade, MJ, Westbrook pretty much equaled Harden. It's not something unique but it's true Harden is one of the best at it.

Show me where their free throw rates come even CLOSE to Harden's...then factor in Harden averaging 7 threes per game for his career in only 34mpg.

Harden is BY FAR the GOAT foul drawer...it isn't even close factoring in possessions and shot types.

The players you listed LIVED in the paint.

[diamenz]

'foul drawer' or 'drawer of fouls'?

mhoy.

http://worldwide-web.com/JeffreyBabad/Simpsons/Frink/frink.gif

[iamgine]

Show me where their free throw rates come even CLOSE to Harden's...then factor in Harden averaging 7 threes per game for his career in only 34mpg.

Harden is BY FAR the GOAT foul drawer...it isn't even close factoring in possessions and shot types.

The players you listed LIVED in the paint.
You can...google their ft rate you know.

[StrongLurk]

You can...google their ft rate you know.

You can...realize I already know the answer.

[iamgine]

You can...realize I already know the answer.
Well then you already know Harden isn't the goat foul drawer. :confusedshrug:

[Pointguard]

Harden's free throw rate is as much of an outlier as Curry's 3 point shooting. Seriously, his FTR over these last 6 years or so is pretty much double any other player in NBA history...which is also crazy since he shoots like 10 threes a game.

I know Harden's made more free throws than field goals and also I remember hearing one season he shot as many free throws off threes as the REST OF THE NBA (someone fact check this last part).

I hate his flopping ass even though he is a highly skilled player.

More than anything I'm just...in awe of seeing this shit on paper.

During this 17 game crazy streak he is on, he is shooting like 15 threes AND 15 free throws a game...it just shouldn't be possible.

Great Post.

That's his skill. He's stronger and faster than he looks and keeps the defender off balance because of his crazy shooting range. You can be up on him and he's still hitting a three in your face. On contested threes he's clearly better than anybody who has ever played. He also uses the three better than anybody ever because his whole game is predicated on it. He's too burly and smart for a defender to play him tight. The defender has to overcompensate to guard him and is at his mercy. Give him credit.

[AussieSteve]

His free throws rate is not anomalous at all.

For a guard maybe, but overall... No. In the 3pt era, his highest FTR season ranks 11th all time among 25+PPG seasons.


Barkley has #1, #3 and #5 on this list. i.e. Barkley is the GOAT foul drawer.

[Gotterdammerung]

Actually the record for most free throws per game goes to Wilt Chamberlain, who holds six of the top 7 seasons in league history.
:cheers:

Your "GOAT foul drawer," James Harden is 24th to date. :oldlol:

ETA: I would rank Jerry West above Harden as the superior foul drawer, since he earned 977 FT attempts in 1966. More than Shaq or Malone or Jordan ever did.

[AussieSteve]

Just looking at some more numbers... Barkley is absolutely the GOAT foul drawer.

When you think about it, FTr rewards a foul on a missed shot (2 fta / 0 fga) more than a foul on a made shot (1 fta / 1 fga). However you'd much rather the And 1 than a trip to the line for 2 shots. So if two guys have the same FTr, you'd say that the one who get's more And 1's is the better foul drawer, because he can finish the play through contact more often.

So, for example, not only was Shaq's .684 FTr in 2001 much better than Harden's best season FTr of .592 in 2013, but Shaq also had 115 And 1's to Hardens 65. If they had both missed all of their shots that led to the and 1, then Shaq's FTr would have been .816 vs Harden's .674.

Clearly Shaq drew far more fouls per shot attempt than Harden.

We don't have play-by-play stats before 2001, so we can't make the same comparisons with older players, but check this list of the top 6 FTr seasons all time (25+ppg seasons only):

1. '88 Barkley - .741
2. '70 Wilt - .692
3. '01 Shaq - .684
4. '89 Barkley - .661
5. '84 Dantley - .658
6. '90 Barkley - .632

We know that Barkley was ATG (maybe GOAT) at finishing through contact. So if we were able to factor in his And 1's, his unparalleled ability to draw contact would be even more apparent.

Edit: I forgot to factor in Hack-a-Shaq which inflated Shaq's free throw attempts. This makes Barkley even more of an outlier in the modern era.

[r0drig0lac]

it only works today though


he'd be laughed out of the gym if he tried this shit back in the 80's/90's/early 00's


after the first 2-3 no call flop/flails launching the ball over the backboard he'd be benched
this

[Pointguard]

Harden still is the greatest foul drawer because he gets fouled 23 ft and further from the rim. That's always a bad foul and everybody is taught to never do that. Shaq and Wilt were intelligent fouls as its better than a dunk. With Harden its almost always due to being off balance because of his great shooting in close quarters of the defender.

[Marchesk]

James Harden is averaging 12.8 3PA and 11.3 FTA. Do you think Shaq or Wilt would get to the line 11 times chucking 13 threes a game? Or even Charles Barkley?

:biggums:


Also, Big King James is averaging 34.8 for the season. That's some serious points per game that Curry, Durant and Lebron never sniffed.

[2swift4u]

the whole foul drawing thing is the reason why I don't respect Harden as much as other players of his caliber. It's just horrible to watch and it shouldn't be your main goal to draw a foul. But as long as the NBA doesn't address it...

The most ridiculous thing I've seen was when Houston played the Warriors and Harden and Durant would constantly draw fouls on each other with that stupid arm sweeping move. It was terrible to watch.

[Gileraracer]

He's also the GOAT flopper, next to the other James