MJ had highest career usage, proving he carried offenses the most

[3ball]

Definition of usage:


"Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense.

The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html
(scroll to bottom "notes" section)


.................usage/ortg RS....usage/ortg PO

JORDAN........33/118...............35/118
LEBRON.........31/116...............32/116
DURANT.........30/117...............30/115
KOBE..............32/110...............31/111
HARDEN.........32/118…........... 33/111


(Harden's numbers are from his time in Houston)

MJ played the biggest role in a team's offense, thereby carrying the biggest load, and did so more efficiently than his peers (higher ortg, aka producing more points per 100 possessions)
.

[Akrazotile]

No, it means he had the highest usage.

You could put a ballhog like Kobe on the 86 Celtics and he’d prob have a sky high usage because he’s a chucker. It doesnt mean he’s carrying shit. It means he has high usage and that’s it. Even if they win games, it’s not “because” of his usage.

MJ’s team won 50+ and fell a game short of the Conf Finals after he retired. Hardly a massive drop off.

GTFO wit dat weak stuff.

[Kblaze8855]

Its just how many shot attempts, free throws, and turnovers you get for your minutes isnt it?

If I dribbled the ball for 22 seconds every time and dished it off for someone to shoot....

Would my usage rate be zero?

[3ball]

No, it means he had the highest usage.


Which means he finished the highest percentage of possessions

That's literally what usage is


Usage Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV)). Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

[3ball]

Its just how many shot attempts, free throws, and turnovers you get for your minutes isnt it?

If I dribbled the ball for 22 seconds every time and dished it off for someone to shoot....

Would my usage rate be zero?
See the previous post

[Akrazotile]

Which means he finished the highest percentage of possessions

That's literally what usage is


That provides zero indication of how important/replaceable someone is to their team.

[Kblaze8855]

See the previous post


The one where you posted the formula that was FGA, turnovers, and free throws?

Again I have to ask...

If I stand with the ball all play...but dont shoot or get the turnover put on me...is my usage zero?

[3ball]

The one where you posted the formula that was FGA, turnovers, and free throws?

Again I have to ask...

If I stand with the ball all play...but dont shoot or get the turnover put on me...is my usage zero?
But you would get the turnover put on you, which is why no one ever does what you said

Your scenario relates to nothing

[Dray n Klay]

The one where you posted the formula that was FGA, turnovers, and free throws?

Again I have to ask...

If I stand with the ball all play...but dont shoot or get the turnover put on me...is my usage zero?

Did you just lock my thread

[3ball]

That provides zero indication of how important/replaceable someone is to their team.
Well it means that when you lose MJ, you have to replace 33-36% of the possessions, compared to less for everyone else

And at a higher efficiency than you have to replace everyone else's too.

[Akrazotile]

Well it means that when you lose MJ, you have to replace 33-36% of the possessions, compared to less for everyone else

And at a higher efficiency than you have to replace everyone else's too.


Okay, but spreading those extra touches to the rest of the team will either be good or bad depending on how good or bad the team is. Having a high usage doesnt intrinsically make someone valuable.

[Kblaze8855]

But you would get the turnover put on you, which is why no one ever does what you said

Your scenario relates to nothing


I mentioned passing it off.

The idea many people have is usage relates to time with the ball. It seems to me that you could run a team...with low usage. All it counts is shot attempts, free throws, and turnovers.

[egokiller]

But how was he able to do this during a time where his conference wasn't historically weak? During a time where it was harder to score the ball and hand checking was allowed? A time where flagrant fouls of today were considered touch fouls back then? You put Jordan in today's game and his usage INCREASES even further, resulting in him carrying an even bigger load than what he did back when he played. No wonder why people that had to settle for watching mediocrity instead of MJ are so triggered by all this. :applause:

[AirBonner]

It wasn

[bigkingsfan]

1. Michael Jordan* 33.26
2. Russell Westbrook 32.67
3. DeMarcus Cousins 31.99
4. Kobe Bryant 31.85
5. Allen Iverson* 31.83
6. LeBron James 31.53

:coleman:

[3ball]

I mentioned passing it off.

The idea many people have is usage relates to time with the ball. It seems to me that you could run a team...with low usage. All it counts is shot attempts, free throws, and turnovers.
Ok

But to prefer a Kidd over a Jordan, Kidd would need to produce an offense that exceeds MJ's 118 ortg, on those possessions that Kidd himself isn't finishing (his usage deficit to jordan)

We know this is impossible, since the highest team ortg is magic's 115.6 in 1987

So maybe your point is valid for less efficient wings like playoff Durant, Kobe, or playoff Harden, who have less than a 116 ortg.... but not MJ, and Lebron by a hair too

So I guess if ur efficient enough, it's better to be the scorer than the passer.. you guys basically aren't considering the efficiency aspect of usage (ortg), which is included in the OP.
.

[Akrazotile]

Why did Pippen have a much higher usage rate with Madonna?

[3ball]

Okay, but spreading those extra touches to the rest of the team will either be good or bad depending on how good or bad the team is. Having a high usage doesnt intrinsically make someone valuable.
It doesn't matter - ur still having to replace more possessions at higher efficiency when you lose mj versus losing anyone else

In theory, if you could replace 35% of possessions at greater than 118 ortg, then yes, a team would be better off without MJ.. but the highest team ortg is 115.6, so it's impossible to spread MJ's possessions around efficiently enough, and it's too many possessions to have to spread around

So taking away MJ requires a bigger replacement of offensive possessions than anyone else... And adding MJ's 35% of possessions at high efficiency to a team is more than anyone else can add

[tpols]

Why did Pippen have a much higher usage rate with Madonna?

He brought better D.

[andgar923]

f*cking Nerds

[72-10]

Despite this he also has one of the lowest turnover rates of all time, 9.34, right now it's 31st lowest. LeBron, at 13.0, is nowhere to be found, not in the top 250. Bird is at #240, 12.73.

[3ball]

Why did Pippen have a much higher usage rate with Madonna?


Easier to whip the 2nd option

[TheCorporation]

MJ played the biggest role in a team's offense, thereby carrying the biggest load, and did so more efficiently than his peers (higher ortg, aka producing more points per 100 possessions)
.

I don't think many deny he was a good scorer; however, we all know there is far more to basketball than scoring, right? After all, just ask Allen Iverson. So, the problem in which you avoid time and time again is why are his assist and rebound and shooting efficiency numbers below everyone else on this list (LBJ, KD, Harden)?

If this was a list of "who scores a lot" the surely we would add Jordan. But when it comes to determining a list of "who is the best player" Jordan falls short. He is a great scorer, but as we both know, during their 6 championship runs Scottie still had more rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks than Jordan. Jordan is a scorer, Scottie is an all around player. Now imagine combining Magic and Pippen and Jordan to create the most elite player of all time. Yes, that is none other than King James.

This can't be ignored

https://i.postimg.cc/G3jt1W6p/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

The craziest part is...It wasn't against a 1996 Sonics or 1992 Trailblazers team, but the 2016 73-win Warriors.

[Nash]

https://i.postimg.cc/G3jt1W6p/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

The craziest part is...It wasn't against a 1996 Sonics or 1992 Trailblazers team, but the 2016 73-win Warriors.
Goat

[TheCorporation]

Despite this he also has one of the lowest turnover rates of all time, 9.34, right now it's 31st lowest. LeBron, at 13.0, is nowhere to be found, not in the top 250. Bird is at #240, 12.73.

Again...And assists? 1,687 (3rd, all-time)

Lebron has a post season 1.948 assists-to-TO ratio

Other notable stars assist-to-TO ratio:

Jordan: 1.871
Pippen: 1.740
Bryant: 1.607

[3ball]

Lebron has a post season 1.948 assists-to-TO ratio

Other notable stars assist-to-TO ratio:

Jordan: 1.871
Pippen: 1.740
Bryant: 1.607


ORtg = points produced per 100 possessions..... this includes assists and turnovers

So MJ produces more per possession after considering scoring, shooting efficiency, assists and turnovers

Consequently, MJ finished the most possessions (usage) at a more efficient clip than his peers achieve their lesser usages

When a team loses MJ, they must replace a higher number of possessions at higher efficiency than losing any other player

And adding the goat usage/possession capability at high efficiency is more than anyone can add to a team

btw, post per game stats from now on, not career totals - longevity doesn't measure how much someone dominated, only how long.. if ur being honest, you know that 'how much' is the important thing, not how long
.

[72-10]

Again...And assists? 1,687 (3rd, all-time)

Lebron has a post season 1.948 assists-to-TO ratio

Other notable stars assist-to-TO ratio:

Jordan: 1.871
Pippen: 1.740
Bryant: 1.607

Could I get Barkley's please?

[hiphopanonymous]

Goat
Ah this is where you took the pic and decided to make a thread about it

a thread which only served to expose how many accounts I control :D

[3ball]

I don't think many deny he was a good scorer; however, we all know there is far more to basketball than scoring, right? After all, just ask Allen Iverson. So, the problem in which you avoid time and time again is why are his assist and rebound and shooting efficiency numbers below everyone else on this list (LBJ, KD, Harden)?

If this was a list of "who scores a lot" the surely we would add Jordan. But when it comes to determining a list of "who is the best player" Jordan falls short. He is a great scorer, but as we both know, during their 6 championship runs Scottie still had more rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks than Jordan. Jordan is a scorer, Scottie is an all around player. Now imagine combining Magic and Pippen and Jordan to create the most elite player of all time. Yes, that is none other than King James.

This can't be ignored

https://i.postimg.cc/G3jt1W6p/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

The craziest part is...It wasn't against a 1996 Sonics or 1992 Trailblazers team, but the 2016 73-win Warriors.
MJ's 41 ppg was a record in a specific category and therefore goat, whereas lebron leading 5 categories is no less arbitrary than MJ winning the Finals with a 20 ppg margin over his 2nd option (goat load), versus lebron's 3 ppg over kyrie (equal load)

[andgar923]

All this feels like some calculus equation.

Numbers can be biased.

Eye test>>>>>>>>

[bullettooth]

This can't be ignored

https://i.postimg.cc/G3jt1W6p/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

The craziest part is...It wasn't against a 1996 Sonics or 1992 Trailblazers team, but the 2016 73-win Warriors.

Interesting. He can beat a 73 win team with apparently no help, but can't beat an average team with help.

Why does LeBron fail so often?

[Uncle Drew]

Interesting. He can beat a 73 win team with apparently no help, but can't beat an average team with help.

Why does LeBron fail so often?
Guess he took you as an example.

[3ball]

All this feels like some calculus equation.

Numbers can be biased.

Eye test>>>>>>>>
if you're a GM, and you knew that all you'd need talent-wise to have the goat modern dynasty was like a worse-scoring version of paul george and a 10/10 pf that plays solid D, you'd be salivating at the job.

It would be the best job in sports

And MJ has great fundamentals and can fit into any offense, so the coach can just be a good people person

[egokiller]

[QUOTE=AirBonner]It wasn

[3ball]

I mentioned passing it off.

The idea many people have is usage relates to time with the ball. It seems to me that you could run a team...with low usage. All it counts is shot attempts, free throws, and turnovers.


It's intuitive that if a scorer can score efficiently enough, that's obviously better than passing to a less efficient teammate

MJ's 118 ortg makes his use of possessions a better option than letting Kidd deciding who should use it..

i.e. let me know when a pass-first guy ever runs a 118 ortg offense.. :confusedshrug:.. until then, mj's volume of usage at 118 ortg is goat

[bigkingsfan]

Turrible defensive team that nearly lost in the first round.

[3ball]

thread

shut

down

:applause:
Ur spamming now

Jordan's 41 ppg was a record and therefore goat, whereas lebron leading 5 categories is an arbitrary selection of goat criteria - it's no less arbitrary a criteria than MJ winning the Finals with a 20 ppg margin over his 2nd option (goat load), versus lebron's 3 ppg over kyrie (equal load)..

Oh wait.. MJ's 20 ppg edge on his 2nd option is also a record.. so that further proves that MJ's record 41 ppg was the goat Finals performance and carry-job

[Gus Hemmingway]

I don't think many deny he was a good scorer; however, we all know there is far more to basketball than scoring, right? After all, just ask Allen Iverson. So, the problem in which you avoid time and time again is why are his assist and rebound and shooting efficiency numbers below everyone else on this list (LBJ, KD, Harden)?

If this was a list of "who scores a lot" the surely we would add Jordan. But when it comes to determining a list of "who is the best player" Jordan falls short. He is a great scorer, but as we both know, during their 6 championship runs Scottie still had more rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks than Jordan. Jordan is a scorer, Scottie is an all around player. Now imagine combining Magic and Pippen and Jordan to create the most elite player of all time. Yes, that is none other than King James.

This can't be ignored

https://i.postimg.cc/G3jt1W6p/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

The craziest part is...It wasn't against a 1996 Sonics or 1992 Trailblazers team, but the 2016 73-win Warriors.
GOAT dick

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Usg% just tells you, quite literally, what % of team's possession ends in a fga, fta, or turnover for x player.

A guy handles the ball for 23 seconds, finally passes and gets an assist, has a 0% usage even though they literally had the ball 96% of the time. Even with the desired result of 2/3 points off an assist that's not exactly the best way to play basketball. I know that's not where you're going with this thread but it's one of many problems I have with that metric when it is mentioned

But MJ is of course the GOAT and one of the 1000s of reasons why is because he could score so efficiently, in a myriad of ways, while being the focal point.

[kennethgriffen]

[QUOTE=3ball]Definition of usage:


"Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense.

The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html
(scroll to bottom "notes" section)


.................usage/ortg RS....usage/ortg PO

JORDAN........33/118...............35/118
LEBRON.........31/116...............32/116
DURANT.........30/117...............30/115
KOBE..............32/110...............31/111
HARDEN.........32/118

[TheCorporation]

rank these 4 players


1990 michael jordan
1989 michael jordan
2012 lebron james
2013 lebron james

2006 Kobe > 98 Jordan
2012 Bron > 98 Jordan
2013 Bron > 98 Jordan

[kennethgriffen]

2006 Kobe > 98 Jordan
2012 Bron > 98 Jordan
2013 Bron > 98 Jordan


i'd say yes for 2012 bran


wouldn't put 2013 bran in there though. he went away from the post game that dominated durant and start shooting jumpers again in 2013. nearly cost them vs sanantonio

[3ball]

rank these 4 players


1990 michael jordan
1989 michael jordan
2012 lebron james
2013 lebron james
Jordan 89-90' RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1989-1990-sum:per_game):. 33.0.. 7.5.. 7.2.. 2.8.. 0.7.. 61.0 ts.. 31.2 PER
Lebron 12-13' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2012-2013-sum:per_game):. 26.9.. 8.0.. 6.8.. 1.8.. 0.8.. 62.4 ts.. 31.2 PER

Jordan 89-90' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1989-1990-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 35.7.. 7.2.. 7.1.. 2.6.. 0.8.. 59.7 ts.. 30.8 PER
Lebron 12-13' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2012-2013-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 28.1.. 9.1.. 6.1.. 1.8.. 0.7.. 58.0 ts.. 29.2 PER


D Wade 12-13' RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2012-2013-sum:per_game):. 21.6.. 4.9.. 4.9.. 1.8.. 1.0.. 56.6 ts.. 24.9 PER
Pippent 89-90' RS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1989-1990-sum:per_game):. 15.5.. 6.4.. 4 5.. 2.3.. 1.0.. 52.6 ts.. 15.7 PER

D Wade 12-13' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2012-2013-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 19.4.. 4.9.. 4.9.. 1.7.. 1.2.. 51.5 ts.. 20.5 PER
Pippent 89-90' PO (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1989-1990-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 16.0.. 7.4.. 4.7.. 1.7.. 1.0.. 55.8 ts.. 16.5 PER


^^^ MJ with 6-8 more ppg and 1 more apg, with a much worse sidekick... give it up for rich man's Kobe.. :bowdown:

[3ball]

.

Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:.. 43.3 pts.. 118 ORtg.. 35.6 usg
LEBRON:.. 37.2 pts.. 116 ORtg.. 32.2 usg
DURANT:. 36.3 pts.. 115 ORtg.. 30.5 usg
KOBE:...... 34.7 pts.. 110 ORtg.. 31.0 usg
WADE:..... 32.2 pts.. 108 ORtg.. 30.1 usg
HARDEN:. 32.0 pts.. 113 ORtg.. 28.1 usg

(Harden 17' and 18' PO: 38.9 pts, 110 ortg, 36.2 usg)


So mj's produced the most (43.3 pts) at higher efficiency than everyone (118 ortg).. so he provided more (points) of a good thing (ortg)

Btw, considering the #2 thru #6 guys are between 32 and 36 points, you'd think the #1 guy would be at 37 or 38... But MJ is at 43.3 points, far above the pack and in another tier
.

[FKAri]

"Since Jordan's move from off-guard, the Bulls have gone 11-5. That, in itself, should be reward enough.

But even Jordan has been caught in triple-double-mania.

During breaks in games, Jordan has been wandering over to the scorer's table to get updates on how many rebounds, assists and points he needs to fill his three double-figure quotas.

"The guys at the scorer's desk let me know what I need," he said. "They tell me, 'You need three assists; you need two rebounds."'

Jordan also has been double-checking the figures with Chicago assistants.

"They keep me in tune," he said. "They keep reminding me when I come back to the huddle, how much I need."

Last Sunday, at home against New Jersey, the 10th assist was Jordan's final goal.

"I knew I had nine assists," he said, "and I looked at (forward) Brad (Sellers), and said, 'Brad, can I count on you for my 10th?' And he said, 'yeah' and hit a jumper from the baseline."

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl...048-story.html



Selfishness, Part I: Since switching to point guard for the Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan has become statistic conscious. He has started checking with statisticians to see how close he is to a triple-double. He had a string of seven consecutive triple-doubles broken Friday night.

"The guys at the scorer's desk let me know what I need," Jordan said.

So, too, do the Bulls' assistant coaches.

"They keep reminding me when I get back to the huddle," Jordan said. "They say, 'You need three more of this. You need four more of that.' "

Jordan is trying to win over voters for the league's most valuable player award.

"If the way I'm playing now doesn't convince them I'm a complete player, then I guess nothing will," Jordan said.
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-04-...ckson-s-backup




........Payton’s mouth is all it takes to reactivate Jordan’s murderous instincts. Against the Sonics, Jordan takes the ball away from Payton the first two times he touches it. Payton is so thoroughly owned that he has to go to the bench. But just as Jordan is gliding toward a SportsCenter-worthy night, Jackson pulls him out of the game. De-Michaelization and all.

"He’s not going to let me win the scoring title,"Jordan whines to guard B.J. Armstrong as he sits on the bench.




But Jordan was the king, and the bloodiest battles for resources tended to be between him and the teammates he called "my supporting cast." "Screw you, M.J.," Grant said after one game. "All you care about is your points and everyone knows it.You don’t care about anything but yourself."


https://usatsneakhype.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/michaels-secret-stuff-water-bottle-2.jpg




Selfish, roiding, ball-hogging, stat-padding, cancer rescued by 90s marketing, courtesy of Stern/Nike.

[3ball]

ball-hogging cancer rescued by 90s marketing, courtesy of Stern/Nike


MJ's goat playoff efficiency among wings (118 ortg) was better than any offense (17' Warriors had a 115.6 ortg)

so it made sense for mj to score the most, since he could score at goat volume more efficiently than anyone else's LOWER volume (aka he was on another level

Marketing can't score in goat fashion and at a goat clip..






Selfish, ball-hogging



MJ led the bulls in APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen and assisted on the most bulls' FG's for both 3-peats:



Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


mj's goat scoring burden, team-leading passing, and goat defense at his position is the most anyone has ever had to do...

Obviously, lebron would be a more dominant player with 5 more ppg on better efficiency per possession.. :rolleyes:

[TheCorporation]

Wow no way!? And LeBron scored even MORE points on LESS shots :eek: :eek:

[FKAri]

MJ's goat playoff efficiency among wings (118 ortg) was better than any offense (17' Warriors had a 115.6 ortg)

so it made sense for mj to score the most, since he could score at goat volume more efficiently than anyone else's LOWER volume (aka he was on another level

Marketing can't score in goat fashion and at a goat clip..





MJ led the bulls in APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen and assisted on the most bulls' FG's for both 3-peats:



Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


mj's goat scoring burden, team-leading passing, and goat defense at his position is the most anyone has ever had to do...

Obviously, lebron would be a more dominant player with 5 more ppg on better efficiency per possession.. :rolleyes:
Nice $tats. 2017 Westbrook shares the ball more then MJ too by this metric.

[3ball]

Nice $tats. 2017 Westbrook shares the ball more then MJ too by this metric.
We aren't robots though are we?

So we're aware that those stats reflect 6 championship runs, and therefore represent goat basketball, while Westbrook represents modern-day iverson-ball

Actually, Westbrook represents lebron-ball minus the team-hopping, so no rings (and minus the saving shots too - I'm sure Westbrook wishes durant could've saved him against the 16' warriors like kyrie did)

[sdot_thadon]

[QUOTE]
That night, the Bulls lose to the underdog Warriors. Jordan gets just 12 shots

[3ball]

Crazy that after all that effort to get him to use less possessions he still has the career average in usage....


Would you rather lebron use possessions at 116 ortg, or MJ at 118?

MJ is the obvious answer, so he was asked to carry a bigger load.. :confusedshrug:

no one was even CLOSE to mj's combination of playoff usage/efficiency

[sdot_thadon]

Would you rather lebron use possessions at 116 ortg, or MJ at 118?

MJ is the obvious answer, so he was asked to carry a bigger load.. :confusedshrug:

no one was even CLOSE to mj's combination of playoff usage/efficiency
no actually he didn't because Pippen was burdened with play making so he actually only had to wear a single hat on offense when Lebron had to score as well as playmake. no comparison.

[3ball]

no actually he didn't because Pippen was burdened with play making so he actually only had to wear a single hat on offense when Lebron had to score as well as playmake. no comparison.
Wrong again


MJ led the bulls in APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen and assisted on the most bulls' FG's for both 3-peats:



Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced


mj's goat scoring burden, team-leading passing, and goat defense at his position is the most anyone has ever had to do...

Obviously, lebron would be a more dominant player with 5 more ppg on better efficiency per possession.. :rolleyes:

[sdot_thadon]

why don't you argue with Phil, the hall of fame head coach instead:



Q: Now that the Bulls seem intent on keeping Pippen, will he respond and perform back in Jordan's shadow?


A: "I can only say again this is the most unselfish superstar in the game of basketball. He's a guy we asked five or six years ago not to worry about points, get assists and rebounds and the wins and points will take care of themselves. This year I want him to be a leader and fill in, get assists, find the guys who have to score, play defense, maybe score when a 6-foot guy is playing him. But I still think Scottie will lead this team in rebounding, more or less, and assists."



:no:

[3ball]

why don't you argue with Phil, the hall of fame head coach instead:


A: "I can only say again this is the most unselfish superstar in the game of basketball. He's a guy we asked five or six years ago not to worry about points, get assists and rebounds and the wins and points will take care of themselves. This year I want him to be a leader and fill in, get assists, find the guys who have to score, play defense, maybe score when a 6-foot guy is playing him. But I still think Scottie will lead this team in rebounding, more or less, and assists."


any pippen advice not to worry about scoring only accentuates the load mj had to carry, as the stats posted earlier already showed..

But Phil is talking about the points taking care of themselves via the system, and told that to everyone, including MJ

Phil didn't want pippen operating without the system as we saw in game 3 of 94' ecf (kukoc was the preferred #1 option)

But the system restricted everyone to stay within it, including MJ, which makes the usage and ppg stats mind-boggling (the goat load mj carried within that system)
.

[TheCorporation]

Still so amazing to me that Jordan has the highest usage rate and STILL LeBron scored more points, breaking Jordan's record.

How great is our LeGod? :bowdown:

[3ball]

Still so amazing to me that Jordan has the highest usage rate and STILL LeBron scored more points, breaking Jordan's record.

How great is our LeGod? :bowdown:
How do you respond to the stats showing that MJ needed to score 34 and 7 apg in the playoffs to win the 91-93' rings, while lebron only needed 27 and 7 in the 12/13/16 playoffs for his 3 rings? (And the gap is 36/8 and 27/7 in those Finals)

Since u won't respond directly to this ^^^

never say that lebron had to "do more" than MJ with a straight face ever again .. because you'll know the stats so you'll know it's bs... now carry on..

[TheCorporation]

How do you respond to the stats showing that MJ needed to score 34 and 7 apg in the playoffs to win the 91-93' rings, while lebron only needed 27 and 7 in the 12/13/16 playoffs for his 3 rings? (And the gap is 36/8 and 27/7 in those Finals)

Since u won't respond directly to this ^^^

never say that lebron had to "do more" than MJ with a straight face ever again .. because you'll know the stats so you'll know it's bs... now carry on..

Lmao so how good at scoring was MJ? How many points did he get?!

Still so amazing to me that Jordan has the highest usage rate and STILL LeBron scored more points, breaking Jordan's record.

How great is our LeGod?*

[sdot_thadon]

any pippen advice not to worry about scoring only accentuates the load mj had to carry, as the stats posted earlier already showed..

But Phil is talking about the points taking care of themselves via the system, and told that to everyone, including MJ

Phil didn't want pippen operating without the system as we saw in game 3 of 94' ecf (kukoc was the preferred #1 option)

But the system restricted everyone to stay within it, including MJ, which makes the usage and ppg stats mind-boggling (the goat load mj carried within that system)
.
Yeah being a dumbass isn't a good enough excuse to argue with the head coach over what role his players, on his team were charged with. Phil says Scottie was charged with leading, setting up other guys and rebounding. It goes without saying what his defensive duties were. I'm sure you know better than Phil, he of 11 titles knows.:biggums:

[3ball]

Yeah being a dumbass isn't a good enough excuse to argue with the head coach over what role his players, on his team were charged with. Phil says Scottie was charged with leading, setting up other guys and rebounding. It goes without saying what his defensive duties were. I'm sure you know better than Phil, he of 11 titles knows.:biggums:
Phil says he wants pippen to be A leader, after 5-6 years of apparently not doing so.. :confusedshrug:

And pippen set guys up, but not as much as MJ, who assisted on the most bulls' field goals for both 3-peats

But I think we're in agreement - Phil told pippen not to worry about points and they'd take care of themselves, as your quote says

any pippen advice not to worry about scoring only accentuates the load mj had to carry, as the stats posted earlier already showed

It's interesting because Doug Gottlieb was talking about how pts, reb, assists are old stats that don't measure much.. the new stats that matter are offensive and defensive efficiency, plus-minus, etc. - mj's offensive efficiency was goat (see thread title), and his defensive efficiency is elite through 35 years old, while his 96' season set the plus-minus record... lebron trails severely in all of these