Imagine what the proposed(but unlikely) tax plan would do to the NBA.

[Kblaze8855]

You may have heard about the Ocasio Cortez tax plan shes been pushing for in congress. 70% rate on people over 10 million. Which would of course...make it kinda not worth it to make say...15 million. Heres an article on some of the implications:


https://slate.com/culture/2019/01/nba-aoc-70-percent-marginal-tax-rate.html



Raises some good points. You could defer deals so you make 10 million now....20 million after you retire for ____ number of years. But....most max players have endorsements that would get them to 10 million to begin with. So they could only take home 30% of their NBA pay...less really with agent/manager fees.

But you could change some income from say....Nike...to nike stock. Which you then pay cap gains tax rates on.

I dont support the plan but it would be funny watching the accounting gymnastics.

The Raptors would be unstoppable. We might see Vancouver get a team back. Granted.....you still get taxed to death in canada....it wouldnt be as bad as here.

Kyle Lowrys taee home pay on 28 million in salary in canada owuld look pretty good compared to only getting 30% off top here:



http://i64.tinypic.com/33tnp82.jpg

[Ben Simmons 25]

Income redistribution to that degree doesn’t work nor will it ever work.

The truly wealthy will dodge the absolute **** out of paying those taxes by any means necessary and I don’t blame them one bit. It’s asinine.

The IRS shouldn’t even ****ing exist tbh unless there is national military emergency which we haven’t had either since 9-11-01 or since ww2 and all taxes should be handled at the state level otherwise. Period.

Wealth redistribution in this country is already ****ing the middle class harder than anyone else and her tax plan wouldn’t do anything to stop it. The rich would still dodge something fierce.

It’s also straight up ****ing immoral to essentially rob someone which is exactly what she’s advocating. IT IS IMMORAL. IT IS THEFT.

Just because a bunch of millionaires got where they are by doing less than honorable things doesn’t mean you punish the entire system. You look for other ways to fix the problems but you don’t rob people of their money no matter how wealthy they might be. The rich already pay a disproportionate amount and she wants them to hand over their entire ****ing wallets. Stupid ****.




And yes just for the sake of saving a headache the Raptors might be able to field a 75 win team lmaoooo.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Having only read the first part of the title and the first paragraph I was getting all excited to say to kblaze, "wrong forum, please post in the OTC" but a little more reading ruined all that, unfortunately.

Currently most players just want the ego-boost attached to getting every dollar a team can spare, it's not just about the take home pay. The Florida and Texas teams don't have state income tax but we've only seen the Heat dominate a year of free agency and that was more about cap space. James still ended up leaving Miami, Shaq left Orlando for a high-tax state all those years ago, Kawhi Leonard forced his way out of SA. Taxes are important but they don't appear to majorly effect players thinking yet.

Players colluding to make a superteam might just consider the ramifications of the Cortez tax plan the next time that kind of thing happens but I bet the average FA still doesn't care.

[ImKobe]

[QUOTE=Ben Simmons 25]Income redistribution to that degree doesn

[DMAVS41]

Her plan is too extreme and starts at too low of an amount at 10 million, but she is on the right track.

There has to be some redistribution of wealth as the growing wealth inequality is a real problem.

Whether the fix is UBI facilitated by a tax of companies profiting from AI or a much heavier tax on the ultra wealthy...I don't know the answer, but with the coming AI revolution...

The average person out there is going to be pretty screwed if we as a society don't agree to make some modifications to our current system (which is clearly the best, I'm not hating on capitalism, but some things do have to change)...

[kap]

Just one clarification here, our tax system is progressive, meaning, the 70% rate kicks in on anything above $10mm. Still, a significant chunk for those making, say, $50+mm a year.





Kyle Lowrys taee home pay on 28 million in salary in canada owuld look pretty good compared to only getting 30% off top here:

http://i64.tinypic.com/33tnp82.jpg

[FKAri]

Just one clarification here, our tax system is progressive, meaning, the 70% rate kicks in on anything above $10mm. Still, a significant chunk for those making, say, $50+mm a year.
It's like that in most places. I guess most people have just never done or understood taxes.

[Kblaze8855]

Bigtime players hit 10 million off shoe deals alone. It would hit your entire nba salary.

[SomeBlackDude]

heavens, no! how will the sprewells of the world feed their families now? :(

https://media.giphy.com/media/4MHv5aIo6SI2A/giphy.gif

[Kblaze8855]

At that rate would it be worth it if you won the Powerball to just take all the money upfront not have any withheld and find a way to leave the country and pull it out in cash or gold elsewhere?

I

[bullettooth]

heavens, no! how will the sprewells of the world feed their families now? :(

https://media.giphy.com/media/4MHv5aIo6SI2A/giphy.gif

This.

28 million or 12 million. I wouldn't know what to do with 12 million... or even less than that.

How much is enough for these rich ****ers?

[FKAri]

This.

28 million or 12 million. I wouldn't know what to do with 12 million... or even less than that.

How much is enough for these rich ****ers?
Capitalism kinda falls apart at that point but the alternative is socialism.

[RoseCity07]

I starting to think taxing rich people will never work. Even if you do it they always get out of it. We need a minimum income. People can still be rich as hell but no one should fall through the cracks. We have the wealth and resources to do that.

[bullettooth]

I starting to think taxing rich people will never work. Even if you do it they always get out of it. We need a minimum income. People can still be rich as hell but no one should fall through the cracks. We have the wealth and resources to do that.

You give people a minimum income and products/services will just go up in price. The rich still win.

[SomeBlackDude]

This.

28 million or 12 million. I wouldn't know what to do with 12 million... or even less than that.

How much is enough for these rich ****ers?

kinda weird how working joes stan for oligarchs these days.

like you can ask a dude working at wal-mart or some factory making $9/hr why he doesn't have healthcare and he'll say 'cuz sochulizm bad'.

but say hey, maybe the owners/ceos of your company who are making like $50 mil per year should be taxed more and that same dude will march to dc to burn the whole place down.

https://media.giphy.com/media/sIlHfE2wu1xFS/giphy.gif

"taxation is theft!"

like why are you crying tears for a dude who makes in a year what like 10-20 generations of your family has/will? :wtf:

kyle lowry's gonna be alright. maybe he might have to cut back to 3 mansions instead of 5, maybe sell one of his yachts, but he's gonna be alright. trust that.

[bladefd]

It won't pass so why bother?

[sammichoffate]

You give people a minimum income and products/services will just go up in price. The rich still win.Not an economist, but wouldn't adjusting minimum wage with inflation hurt in the short-term but help in the long-term?

[RoseCity07]

You give people a minimum income and products/services will just go up in price. The rich still win.

Will they though? Companies still have to compete. I'm not talking about a minimum wage. Couldn't prices actually fall if employers pay their employees less?

I would like to know what would really happen. I'm not an economist.

I'm pretty sure programs like medicare prevent drug companies from price gouging. There would have to be some regulation.

[sammichoffate]

Will they though? Companies still have to compete. I'm not talking about a minimum wage. Couldn't prices actually fall if employers pay their employees less?

I would like to know what would really happen. I'm not an economist.

I'm pretty sure programs like medicare prevent drug companies from price gouging. There would have to be some regulation.It depends on which industries, goods, and services that you're talking about. In theory, it would happen in an unregulated market unless a monopoly was in place(then they could do w/e the f*** they want).

Medicare and price controls are super complicated as well, it depends on millions of factors.

[bullettooth]

Will they though? Companies still have to compete. I'm not talking about a minimum wage. Couldn't prices actually fall if employers pay their employees less?

I would like to know what would really happen. I'm not an economist.

I'm pretty sure programs like medicare prevent drug companies from price gouging. There would have to be some regulation.

Small shops would get hurt badly. Mom and pop shops don't have so much extra cash to be able to afford such a drastic change in paying their employees extra. Most people that have small businesses are middle class with modest incomes and modest means. It's not like just because you're a business owner you're well off.

[Kblaze8855]

kinda weird how working joes stan for oligarchs these days.

like you can ask a dude working at wal-mart or some factory making $9/hr why he doesn't have healthcare and he'll say 'cuz sochulizm bad'.

but say hey, maybe the owners/ceos of your company who are making like $50 mil per year should be taxed more and that same dude will march to dc to burn the whole place down.

https://media.giphy.com/media/sIlHfE2wu1xFS/giphy.gif

"taxation is theft!"

like why are you crying tears for a dude who makes in a year what like 10-20 generations of your family has/will? :wtf:

kyle lowry's gonna be alright. maybe he might have to cut back to 3 mansions instead of 5, maybe sell one of his yachts, but he's gonna be alright. trust that.


You really can

[iamgine]

NBA owners would move the teams and their other businesses.

[Tainted Sword]

It boggles my mind how many ppl think more government is the solution to all of our problems. Anyone who has been to a dmv or even experienced public education will tell you how terrible the government is at providing services to it's citizens. The ppl running these programs arent held accountable for efficiency and simply think that throwing more money at a problem will fix everything.

Socialists like aoc are cowards. They propose this 70% tax on the rich because they dont have the guts to tax everyone 50% like the nordic countries. I'll be more comfortable paying higher taxes when these parasites become more transparent with how they spend. I'll be more comfortable when these politicians are held to the same standard as a company executive.

[bullettooth]

It boggles my mind how many ppl think more government is the solution to all of our problems. Anyone who has been to a dmv or even experienced public education will tell you how terrible the government is at providing services to it's citizens. The ppl running these programs arent held accountable for efficiency and simply think that throwing more money at a problem will fix everything.

Socialists like aoc are cowards. They propose this 70% tax on the rich because they dont have the guts to tax everyone 50% like the nordic countries. I'll be more comfortable paying higher taxes when these parasites become more transparent with how they spend. I'll be more comfortable when these politicians are held to the same standard as a company executive.

Norway isn't a country of idiots though. The tax money the government gets isn't pissed away.

[ralph_i_el]

It's a marginal tax. It would be 70% on every dollar AFTER $10M

Also, redistributionist taxes have been in place, in America, in the past. We are in the lowest tax era of the last 100 years by a huge margin.

Regardless, income tax isn't how the really rich make their money. Capital gains is. Capital gains is the money you make when you sell and asset for a profit. It's taxed way lower than income.

This means someone who doesn't work, but owns stocks or other assets for a living is taxed at a lower rate than someone who works. There should be a cap gains tax for over $500k annually, so as not to impact any retirees who are living off 401(k) type accounts.

I used to be certified to sell securities and financial planning.

[ralph_i_el]

You really can’t get your mind around the concept that some people don’t think they deserve other peoples money when they didn’t earn it?

People making hundreds of millions of dollars didn't earn it either. They benefited from a system where the folks who own assets are entitled to the excess value of everyone's labor.

Athletes are a tiny percent of the very rich. Most do not get rich from working. Most wealth is inherited or comes from capital appreciation and profit (money you get because you own the resources).


Athletes, actors, musicians, and reality/social media stars are emphasized in our media in order to obscure the true nature of the extremely wealthy in our country

[Tainted Sword]

We are trusting the same ppl who have us 21 trillion dollars in debt to spend this money?

I keep hearing this rhetoric about the 70% only kicking in after 10 million, as if that somehow justifies the theft.

[Hawker]

It's a marginal tax. It would be 70% on every dollar AFTER $10M

Also, redistributionist taxes have been in place, in America, in the past. We are in the lowest tax era of the last 100 years by a huge margin.

Regardless, income tax isn't how the really rich make their money. Capital gains is. Capital gains is the money you make when you sell and asset for a profit. It's taxed way lower than income.

This means someone who doesn't work, but owns stocks or other assets for a living is taxed at a lower rate than someone who works. There should be a cap gains tax for over $500k annually, so as not to impact any retirees who are living off 401(k) type accounts.

I used to be certified to sell securities and financial planning.

A lot more deductions and loopholes were in place back then which was the justification for bringing it down so low during the Reagan era. Nobody actually paid that tax rate. The tax revenue as a percentage of GDP is from 18-20% no matter the tax rate since the 50s.

And to act like people today can't buy things at a much lower price and higher value than the 50s is absurd.

[Hawker]

People making hundreds of millions of dollars didn't earn it either. They benefited from a system where the folks who own assets are entitled to the excess value of everyone's labor.

Athletes are a tiny percent of the very rich. Most do not get rich from working. Most wealth is inherited or comes from capital appreciation and profit (money you get because you own the resources).


Athletes, actors, musicians, and reality/social media stars are emphasized in our media in order to obscure the true nature of the extremely wealthy in our country

Without someone owning those assets, the labor wouldn't exist though. Most people were working at some point before they decided to become a businessman and take a risk (aka owning resources for example). People who own resources create things that people want (and then provide it to them) not simply because they own it. It's a win-win for everybody.

[greymatter]

You really can’t get your mind around the concept that some people don’t think they deserve other peoples money when they didn’t earn it?

Who said anything about deserving other people's money? Why are you parroting a conservatard canard that the rich paying more tax = wealth redistribution?

Unless you were old enough to be in the top tax bracket before 1981, you probably had no clue that 70% was what they paid at that time. Back then, the rich actually had to pay for the government that they own and operate.

Every Republican elected to office since 1980 has been working tirelessly to grow the wealth inequality gap back to the Hoover era. Massive deficit spending is great for them. Massive debt means that the government has to print more money to pay off the interest, which = inflation. Who do you think inflation affects more?

Rich people won't suddenly decide to stop doing whatever made them rich just because their taxes went up. One of the biggest problems we have going forward is that the rich can afford to fund think tanks that publish literature to misinform all the stupid people (hello Heritage Foundation).

Trump passes a tax cut that gives most middle class earners 40-50 extra bucks/month and expires in 6-7 more years while it remains permanent for corporations and will add 2.3 trillion more to the debt over the next 10 years. How many people do you think understand that this is essentially passing on debt to future generations while making the rich richer?

GE pays no taxes. Walmart gets subsidized to the tune of 6+ billion a year because they don't pay a living wage and the taxpayers have to foot the bill for housing aid and food stamps for their employees. "Wealth redistribution" is happening, but not in the way that your typical RW Faux-News-viewing simpleton believes.

[Hawker]

Who said anything about deserving other people's money? Why are you parroting a conservatard canard that the rich paying more tax = wealth redistribution?

Unless you were old enough to be in the top tax bracket before 1981, you probably had no clue that 70% was what they paid at that time. Back then, the rich actually had to pay for the government that they own and operate.

Every Republican elected to office since 1980 has been working tirelessly to grow the wealth inequality gap back to the Hoover era. Massive deficit spending is great for them. Massive debt means that the government has to print more money to pay off the interest, which = inflation. Who do you think inflation affects more?

Rich people won't suddenly decide to stop doing whatever made them rich just because their taxes went up. One of the biggest problems we have going forward is that the rich can afford to fund think tanks that publish literature to misinform all the stupid people (hello Heritage Foundation).

Trump passes a tax cut that gives most middle class earners 40-50 extra bucks/month and expires in 6-7 more years while it remains permanent for corporations and will add 2.3 trillion more to the debt over the next 10 years. How many people do you think understand that this is essentially passing on debt to future generations while making the rich richer?

GE pays no taxes. Walmart gets subsidized to the tune of 6+ billion a year because they don't pay a living wage and the taxpayers have to foot the bill for housing aid and food stamps for their employees. "Wealth redistribution" is happening, but not in the way that your typical RW Faux-News-viewing simpleton believes.

Complaining about the heritage foundation brainwashing people is hilarious. Liberals have the media, pop culture, hollywood, public schools, academia etc. and think there's absolutely no brainwashing going on there at all. Please.

Wealth inequality is really a dubious statistic that doesn't take into account age at all. When you break it down by age, the distribution isn't as drastic. Nonsense to compare a 25 year old to a 60 year old and scream about "inequality."

GE and Walmart may not provide taxes but they still provide a ton of social good in the products they supply.

Anyway, doesn't matter what the tax rate has been, revenue has been steady.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/U.S._Federal_Tax_Receipts_as_a_Percentage_of_GDP_1 945%E2%80%932015.jpg

[ralph_i_el]

Without someone owning those assets, the labor wouldn't exist though. Most people were working at some point before they decided to become a businessman and take a risk (aka owning resources for example). People who own resources create things that people want (and then provide it to them) not simply because they own it. It's a win-win for everybody.


Labor exists without property ownership.

I can be a lumberjack without anyone owning the forest.

[Kblaze8855]

People making hundreds of millions of dollars didn't earn it either. They benefited from a system where the folks who own assets are entitled to the excess value of everyone's labor.

Tell you what.....

Go get hundreds of millions of dollars for nothing...without winning the lottery. Tell me how that goes.

Everything comes from somewhere and few little of it is free.



Athletes are a tiny percent of the very rich. Most do not get rich from working. Most wealth is inherited or comes from capital appreciation and profit (money you get because you own the resources).

Where did those resources come from exactly?


Athletes, actors, musicians, and reality/social media stars are emphasized in our media in order to obscure the true nature of the extremely wealthy in our country

Thats a matter of perspective and where you start defining people as extremely wealthy. Wealthy to me now is far from what I thought it was 20 years ago. Im wealthy by the standards I used to have. Im broke by the standards of the people I deal with now.

[Kblaze8855]

Who said anything about deserving other people's money? Why are you parroting a conservatard canard that the rich paying more tax = wealth redistribution?

When someone cant understand why people who arent rich dont want the rich to be taxed even more....seems they cant grasp the reasoning. Some people arent only thinking of themselves. I'll never make 10 million a year. Doesnt mean the people who do owe society more money.



Unless you were old enough to be in the top tax bracket before 1981, you probably had no clue that 70% was what they paid at that time. Back then, the rich actually had to pay for the government that they own and operate.

Really? You think you are the one who informed modern society of the tax laws of generations ago?

Everyone who ever had a tax discussion knew that taxes used to be much higher. Who could you possibly think didnt know that?



Every Republican elected to office since 1980 has been working tirelessly to grow the wealth inequality gap back to the Hoover era. Massive deficit spending is great for them. Massive debt means that the government has to print more money to pay off the interest, which = inflation. Who do you think inflation affects more?

Rich people won't suddenly decide to stop doing whatever made them rich just because their taxes went up. One of the biggest problems we have going forward is that the rich can afford to fund think tanks that publish literature to misinform all the stupid people (hello Heritage Foundation).


Case by case. There is a point at which I wouldnt keep putting in the effort to only bring home a third of what I make from that point on. It would depend on the job and how rich I already was.



Trump passes a tax cut that gives most middle class earners 40-50 extra bucks/month and expires in 6-7 more years while it remains permanent for corporations and will add 2.3 trillion more to the debt over the next 10 years. How many people do you think understand that this is essentially passing on debt to future generations while making the rich richer?


You dont make people richer by letting them keep their money. I dont know where people got the idea that its doing someone a favor to take less of their money. It isnt. Its their money to begin with. They are supposed to get richer when they keep generating it. Why on earth would I want to prevent someone from possessing what they earn? They money isnt being pulled from my childrens mouth. They get the money the same way anyone does. Other people giving it to them. Depending on the industry it it could be a few people...or millions giving a penny here and there...but they are given the money by society. It isnt stolen. That they use that money to make more money is none of my concern.


GE pays no taxes. Walmart gets subsidized to the tune of 6+ billion a year because they don't pay a living wage and the taxpayers have to foot the bill for housing aid and food stamps for their employees. "Wealth redistribution" is happening, but not in the way that your typical RW Faux-News-viewing simpleton believes.

GE employs 300+ thousand people without another 200 thousand in support companies indirectly. Ge is paying this planet in a thousand ways. How many things do you think get taxed before a generator that powers a quarter million homes is built and installed in a power plant? How much gas...shipping...how much material is bought...how many people pay income tax from the salary Gm pays...how much land is purchased...how many things must property taxes be paid on? Just so happens the largest turbine plant they have in the world is literally up the street from me. I live in greenville south carolina as many here have heard me say before. Do you know how well GM pays? Ive known people working there all my life. My friends parents were making 30 dolllars an hour in the early 90s. Who knows what it is now.

Ge generates massive tax revenue in a dozen ways. You cant run a company of that size for free. You cant do anything for free.

And the living wage shit is hilarious to me. Bunch of people take minimum wage(or near it) jobs and complain about the pay. You know why Walmart can pay what it does? There are always a thousand people willing to take the job of anyone who quits.

A job is worth what the people working it decide it is. You know what it would take to raise pay at walmart(even more I mean...its going to 15 an hour soon just like Target)?

Not showing up to work.

I know a dozen people who worked at walmart. I worked at Kmart myself back in the day. Know what I did?

Quit. You only load so much pine straw at 4 bucks an hour in 100 degree weather.

There are so many better jobs....people who work at walmart do it by choice. Its a lack of ambition...or being ok with it. There are thousands of elderly greeting because its supplemental income. Tens of thousands of students. The able bodied normal adults bitching about 11 dollars an hour(what they pay now) get not ****s given from me.

Pay 100 bucks of that walmart check to get a state licence to drive a forklift. Get a factory job. Work hard and advance....get a raise. My friend is the supervisor of TLE at a local walmart. He isnt making minimum wage now.

Ive had retail jobs....its mostly lazy pieces of shit that a few workhorses like me carry until we see it doesnt make sense longterm.

There have always been and will always be low paying jobs for one very simple reason...

Someone ALWAYS thinks the pay offered is enough to show up.

Talking about Walmart making people be on food stamps. 45 million people arent on food stamps because of jobs not paying well for incredibly simple work that in some cases...can be performed by children or the learning impaired.

People are on food stamps because they ****ed their lives up at 16 and didnt graduate high school. Because they didnt go to school. Because they wont even google trade schools. Because they had 4 kids by 23 while living at their moms house and not having a good relationship with the father of any of them before they started having unprotected sex. They are on stamps because they cant pass a drug test. Because they have a disability. Because the breadwinner in the family passed before they learned to support themselves. Because they robbed a guy in 1994 or stole from the register when they worked at Wendys.

Having a shit job or no job isnt the fault of a business that pays what shit work is worth.

Ive owned businesses. Tell me...why should I pay someone twice what THEY tell me they need for a days work because....otherwise I get richer? The morals dont change if I had 30,000 employees instead of 6. Your work is worth what you will take to do it. If guys wont take 60 bucks a day to cut grass....id have to stop operations or pay 100. This is simple. And its not the fault of the people offering the job.

We just have trouble accepting that peoples lives are ****ed up because they ****ed them up....

If you are elderly or disabled...ok. Young and healthy? You can go **** yourself. This is america. A young healthy person doesnt have to keep a bad job for life if he has a speck of common sense.

[Ben Simmons 25]

We just have trouble accepting that peoples lives are ****ed up because they ****ed them up....

If you are elderly or disabled...ok. Young and healthy? You can go **** yourself. This is america. A young healthy person doesnt have to keep a bad job for life if he has a speck of common sense.

I agree with all of your posts and especially the quoted. Amen, amen, amen.

And also I always just llove how such a large percentage of people think it

[Ben Simmons 25]

Morgan Freeman said this best...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r72a19Lbz7k


A lot of people just don

[ralph_i_el]

Tell you what.....

Go get hundreds of millions of dollars for nothing...without winning the lottery. Tell me how that goes.

Everything comes from somewhere and few little of it is free.




Where did those resources come from exactly?



Thats a matter of perspective and where you start defining people as extremely wealthy. Wealthy to me now is far from what I thought it was 20 years ago. Im wealthy by the standards I used to have. Im broke by the standards of the people I deal with now.


It happens every day, it's called inheritance. Almost 40% of wealth is inherited in America.

Where did those resources come from? Uhh, the earth?

The question you should be asking is, why do the people who own the resources own them? The answer: because the government says they do, and is willing to back it up with violence. All ownership of land and resources is backed by the implicit threat of violence.

Take for example a coal mine. Nobody created coal. The only thing that makes coal valuable is labor being used to remove it from the ground, and the fact the people need it. The owner of the coal mine isn't remove the coal from the ground himself, he just owns it. Why shouldn't the workers own the coal mine? Without them, the coal just sits in the ground, worthless.

All land in America was taken by violence or distributed by the government to the well-connected.

If workers were somehow 100% united, owners would have no power. 99% of what they own needs workers to create and consumers to purchase it, otherwise it is worthless.

Most of American politics is just meant as a distraction to keep workers divided. Both political parties are in on this. Racism, sexism, abortion, gun control, immigration etc etc are all real issues, but they currently used to wedge people apart. Nobody in politics is seriously trying to solve them.

[ralph_i_el]

Btw, I'm saying all this because I've studied it, not because I'm some sort of jealous hater. I have a good job and I could sit on my ass for the rest of my life and eventually be a multi-millionaire....because I'm white and white people control most of the wealth in this country. Eventually I'm just going to inherit a bunch of money that I did nothing for...

[ralph_i_el]

Here is a good example of how no one "earns" a billion dollars

Amazon depends on the US Postal service to deliver most of their crap. We as voters control USPS. If we elected officials who wanted to, they could change USPS policies to put Amazon out of business, then swoop in and occupy the role of Amazon on the economy...except the profits would be going to the American people.

The USPS used to provide standard banking functions that everyone needs. If they started back with that again, they could push corrupt organizations like Wells Fargo out of the market.

In fact, banks on general depend on the Federal government for liquidity through the Fed Reserve. Without the Government (which theoretically is the people), banks would not be nearly as profitable.

[ralph_i_el]

Morgan Freeman said this best...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r72a19Lbz7k


A lot of people just don’t want to believe they stay in the spot they’re in because of themselves and their own mindset.

As a child this is obviously not true but as an adult... in the United States... it is 100% true.

Mr. Freeman is an exception to this, but most Hollywood stars are the children of directors/actors/producers who got them into the Screen Actors Guild at a young age. Hollywood is more nepotistic than almost any industry.

This is changing somewhat with social media. It's harder to pretend you got your roles off merit when anyone can look up who your dad was.

[Kblaze8855]

It happens every day, it's called inheritance. Almost 40% of wealth is inherited in America.

Meaning the vast majority wasnt. And even what was isnt exactly cash. Most "wealth" is in the form of land passed to children not stacks of cash. Only 15% of the wealth of the 1% is inherited. 15% of the 1% is a vast sum of money but people forever cite tycoons who built themselves from nothing somewhat recently. People who opened a store and were the richest man in america in 20 years. People who started in a garage and hit 50 billion in no time. People who made programs in college and now are in everyones pocket. Those guys are the villains most often tied to these things and I will never understand it.


Where did those resources come from? Uhh, the earth?

The question you should be asking is, why do the people who own the resources own them? The answer: because the government says they do, and is willing to back it up with violence. All ownership of land and resources is backed by the implicit threat of violence.

Take for example a coal mine. Nobody created coal. The only thing that makes coal valuable is labor being used to remove it from the ground, and the fact the people need it. The owner of the coal mine isn't remove the coal from the ground himself, he just owns it. Why shouldn't the workers own the coal mine? Without them, the coal just sits in the ground, worthless.

If the grunts on the ground knew how to run a billion dollar business they wouldnt be down a mine shaft working for the people who do.

Workers shouldnt own a company because they are required to run it. Its about supply and demand. The workers can quit. They would have people take those jobs for less money tomorrow.


All land in America was taken by violence or distributed by the government to the well-connected.

If workers were somehow 100% united, owners would have no power. 99% of what they own needs workers to create and consumers to purchase it, otherwise it is worthless.

Most of American politics is just meant as a distraction to keep workers divided. Both political parties are in on this. Racism, sexism, abortion, gun control, immigration etc etc are all real issues, but they currently used to wedge people apart. Nobody in politics is seriously trying to solve them.

If workers were somehow united.....

Any other fairly tales you wanna spin? Of course if they unite they would get what they want. I said that. Problem is workers dont have the common sense or will power to unite. Which is exactly why they get paid shit. Blame them not the people paying what they agree to work for.

Why are we blaming the ambitious instead of the fools who take a job then complain about what they agreed was enough to do it?

[Kblaze8855]

Here is a good example of how no one "earns" a billion dollars

Amazon depends on the US Postal service to deliver most of their crap. We as voters control USPS. If we elected officials who wanted to, they could change USPS policies to put Amazon out of business, then swoop in and occupy the role of Amazon on the economy...except the profits would be going to the American people.

The USPS used to provide standard banking functions that everyone needs. If they started back with that again, they could push corrupt organizations like Wells Fargo out of the market.

In fact, banks on general depend on the Federal government for liquidity through the Fed Reserve. Without the Government (which theoretically is the people), banks would not be nearly as profitable.

The post office is way less equipped to replace amazon than amazon is to do without it. Amazon ordered 4500 vans to start its own service and got so many people applying to lease the vans and run local delivery for them they had to up the order to 20K.

In 5 years Amazon will have 200 thousand vans delivering its own shit making even more money.

They are well run and earned their status.

You dont get to be a trillion dollar company by wishing.

[SomeBlackDude]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You really can

[ralph_i_el]

Meaning the vast majority wasnt. And even what was isnt exactly cash. Most "wealth" is in the form of land passed to children not stacks of cash. Only 15% of the wealth of the 1% is inherited. 15% of the 1% is a vast sum of money but people forever cite tycoons who built themselves from nothing somewhat recently. People who opened a store and were the richest man in america in 20 years. People who started in a garage and hit 50 billion in no time. People who made programs in college and now are in everyones pocket. Those guys are the villains most often tied to these things and I will never understand it.



If the grunts on the ground knew how to run a billion dollar business they wouldnt be down a mine shaft working for the people who do.

Workers shouldnt own a company because they are required to run it. Its about supply and demand. The workers can quit. They would have people take those jobs for less money tomorrow.



If workers were somehow united.....

Any other fairly tales you wanna spin? Of course if they unite they would get what they want. I said that. Problem is workers don't have the common sense or will power to unite. Which is exactly why they get paid shit. Blame them not the people paying what they agree to work for.

Why are we blaming the ambitious instead of the fools who take a job then complain about what they agreed was enough to do it?


1. Wealth acts as a funnel. If I have money, I can go open 40 McDonald's franchises, pay someone to run them, and make way more money than I started with. So if 40% of wealth is inherited, a lot of that "earned" wealth is also just money flowing to investors, who have invested their inheritances or windfalls.

2. Workers are required to run a company. They are the ONLY people required to run a company. You are making my point.

3. The people (mostly large groups) who own big businesses primarily worry about how they can personally take as much money from the business as possible. The people that run the business might make a ton of money, but they aren't the ones who own it. Small businesses and start-up successes are held up as examples because that's the only level where the motives of the owners are usually productive, and more in line with the labor.

4. "If workers were somehow united...." it's called a union. We used to have them and everyone made more money, and the economy was consistently booming. Unions have been on the decline for decades, mostly due to attacks by business interests, who ARE united. I'm sure you know what a Chamber of Commerce is. They act as the business-equivalent of a union.

[ralph_i_el]

The post office is way less equipped to replace amazon than amazon is to do without it. Amazon ordered 4500 vans to start its own service and got so many people applying to lease the vans and run local delivery for them they had to up the order to 20K.

In 5 years Amazon will have 200 thousand vans delivering its own shit making even more money.

They are well run and earned their status.

You dont get to be a trillion dollar company by wishing.

The post office already has 215,000 mail trucks in operation.

Amazon is a multi-decade scheme to monopolize the supply-chain management industry. Monopolies are bad.

Amazon went without profit for a a decade when they started. They basically made very little money relative to their size until recently. They were buoyed by investment cash for that entire time, as they grew and pushed stores out of business.

A store franchise is essentially just a supply chain. Think of a store like RadioShack. They buy products directly from the companies that make them, transfer them all over the country, and then sell them to consumers.

Amazon's goal was to cut out all the RadioShacks, and connect producers directly to consumers. In that, they are effectively killing all the corporate office, supply chain manager, store manager, and lower-level employee jobs at those companies.

Why was Amazon able to do this? Because they had no expectation of making any money at first. They just kept getting money from investors to keep them afloat, while they undercut every other company.



Amazon has effectively put a ton of other companies out of business. This is not inherently a bad thing. If they can deliver what people want, at a lower price, that's a good thing. However, when a company gets so big and powerful, there's a lot of awful side-effects.

1. All those workers who got laid off at other retailers have to go somewhere. Effectively, Amazon pushed them into the labor market, and then hoovered up workers at low wages and poor conditions (because what else are they going to do? Radioshack and everywhere else closed!). In a lot of areas, Amazon's distribution plants are now the main source of employment. They are often run by fresh-out-of-college business students at $40k a year (I turned that job down lol).

2. Amazon now can manipulate which products are being sold. The put products that give them kick-backs at the top of searches, or products by companies that they have purchased (by virtue of having so much cash to throw around).

3. Amazon is not powerful enough to bully local and state governments. If we had a bunch of competing companies it would be more difficult for them to get tax (and other) concessions from our governments. Amazon represents so much money and so many jobs that they are able play our governments against each other to get out of paying taxes.

4. They are just going to get bigger and more powerful, and keep doing this same stuff on a greater scale. They've killed all their direct competitors in America. Their only real competition now is foreign (folks like Alibaba) who are doing them same thing in their own country.


Amazon, subsidized by the American People, is a monopoly that subverts competition in the market and should be subject to anti-trust action.

Any organization that gets this powerful will act this way in our current system, and it doesn't have to be this way.

[SomeBlackDude]

You dont get to be a trillion dollar company by wishing.

and you also don't do it without massive government subsidies (https://newrepublic.com/article/146540/amazon-thriving-thanks-taxpayer-dollars).

amazon's new hq in nyc and virginia alone will cost taxpayers $4.6 billion (https://theintercept.com/2018/11/15/amazon-hq2-long-island-city-virginia-subsidies/).

[Kblaze8855]

1. Wealth acts as a funnel. If I have money, I can go open 40 McDonald's franchises, pay someone to run them, and make way more money than I started with. So if 40% of wealth is inherited, a lot of that "earned" wealth is also just money flowing to investors, who have invested their inheritances or windfalls.

This country isnt old enough to have much of dynastic wealth you suggest. There are not a lot of rich since 1821 families handing down the money. Most millionaires are just small land owners. Of course its easier to take money and make more...but as I said...most of the people targeted are massively wealthy off just being better at something than other people. Giving it to your kids? Fine. Thats the reason most of us want to do well.




2. Workers are required to run a company. They are the ONLY people required to run a company. You are making my point.

The workers as individuals arent required to do shit. They can quit and be replaced. Someone has to do with...and someone will always do it. You mix up a person....people...being easily replaced...with work needing to be done. Sure work must be done. But all the workers can be replaced...which is why they have no real power.


3. The people (mostly large groups) who own big businesses primarily worry about how they can personally take as much money from the business as possible. The people that run the business might make a ton of money, but they aren't the ones who own it. Small businesses and start-up successes are held up as examples because that's the only level where the motives of the owners are usually productive, and more in line with the labor.

Where did the idea come from that people arent supposed to run a business to make money off it?

And they all start small. Nobody comes out the gate as amazon. You could start with millions and never come close. Hell billions.

Mark Cuban likely couldnt start a new amazon if he wanted to.



4. "If workers were somehow united...." it's called a union. We used to have them and everyone made more money, and the economy was consistently booming. Unions have been on the decline for decades, mostly due to attacks by business interests, who ARE united. I'm sure you know what a Chamber of Commerce is. They act as the business-equivalent of a union.

Unions dont stop anything because as I said...not enough people have the will power. People need work.

Try to unionize and shut down a walmart....not only would they close the store as an example but while they were deciding they would get 400 applicants to replace the people outside.

Poor people...do not...and never will...stick together.

[ralph_i_el]

This country isnt old enough to have much of dynastic wealth you suggest. There are not a lot of rich since 1821 families handing down the money. Most millionaires are just small land owners. Of course its easier to take money and make more...but as I said...most of the people targeted are massively wealthy off just being better at something than other people. Giving it to your kids? Fine. Thats the reason most of us want to do well.





The workers as individuals arent required to do shit. They can quit and be replaced. Someone has to do with...and someone will always do it. You mix up a person....people...being easily replaced...with work needing to be done. Sure work must be done. But all the workers can be replaced...which is why they have no real power.



Where did the idea come from that people arent supposed to run a business to make money off it?

And they all start small. Nobody comes out the gate as amazon. You could start with millions and never come close. Hell billions.

Mark Cuban likely couldnt start a new amazon if he wanted to.




Unions dont stop anything because as I said...not enough people have the will power. People need work.

Try to unionize and shut down a walmart....not only would they close the store as an example but while they were deciding they would get 400 applicants to replace the people outside.

Poor people...do not...and never will...stick together.

Poor people have in the past, and will in the future unite.

The fact that Walmart would shut down a store just to stop a union from forming proves how powerful a union can be.

So many things in our society are designed to distract, misinform, manipulate, and drain working people of their energy. It's not an accident. If you think like this, our media makes a lot more sense.

All that leads is to a bunch of guys saying the same thing as you. It's the easiest explaination for the way things are, but it's not necessarily the correct one.

I live a good life. The only thing that can make it better right now is more time for my wife, exercise, friends, and my books. I think a lot of people feel this way. I think it's possible to have a world where people can spend more time with their families, friends, and hobbies. I think some powerful forces don't want it to happen.

[Kblaze8855]

The post office already has 215,000 mail trucks in operation.

And Amazon will have a tenth of that in a 6 month period. Imagine after 10 years.


Amazon is a multi-decade scheme to monopolize the supply-chain management industry. Monopolies are bad.

But to be one...you must be good. Funny how that works.


Amazon went without profit for a a decade when they started. They basically made very little money relative to their size until recently. They were buoyed by investment cash for that entire time, as they grew and pushed stores out of business.

A store franchise is essentially just a supply chain. Think of a store like RadioShack. They buy products directly from the companies that make them, transfer them all over the country, and then sell them to consumers.

Amazon's goal was to cut out all the RadioShacks, and connect producers directly to consumers. In that, they are effectively killing all the corporate office, supply chain manager, store manager, and lower-level employee jobs at those companies.

Amazon killed middlemen that caused higher prices by taking advantage of the internet. Uber kills taxis. The lightbulb killed candle makers.

Progress always leaves annoying shit people can do without in its wake.

You sound like Bumpy Johnson at the start of American Gangster mad at a store for selling TV direct from Sony. "What RIGHT do they have to push out the middle man?!?!" shit.

I ask you...what right does the middle man have to charge me mark up when I can get the product where he gets it? How stupid must I be to give him that extra money?

Amazon filled a common sense need at the cost of jobs that arent needed for the people to get what they need. Im sure if someone comes up with a way to run a car as well on water as gas on a large scale they will cost oil industry people jobs. Thats what a great idea does. Kill jobs that support the idea that dies to make room for what people want.



Why was Amazon able to do this? Because they had no expectation of making any money at first. They just kept getting money from investors to keep them afloat, while they undercut every other company.



Amazon has effectively put a ton of other companies out of business. This is not inherently a bad thing. If they can deliver what people want, at a lower price, that's a good thing. However, when a company gets so big and powerful, there's a lot of awful side-effects.

Only when you want to make them look that way.

This is one of thise situations where it all depends on the tone of the person giving the info. Youre on here with dark music and a deep voiced announcer giving a report that could just as easily be spun positive.



1. All those workers who got laid off at other retailers have to go somewhere. Effectively, Amazon pushed them into the labor market, and then hoovered up workers at low wages and poor conditions (because what else are they going to do? Radioshack and everywhere else closed!). In a lot of areas, Amazon's distribution plants are now the main source of employment. They are often run by fresh-out-of-college business students at $40k a year (I turned that job down lol).

Amazon pays a lot better than radio shack...or most of those small businesses in question. We have 2-3 Amazon related places here. I know a girl who does customer service from home and a friend of mine is trying to get a delivery job. Pays as well as BMW which for 20 years has been THE job to have around here.




2. Amazon now can manipulate which products are being sold. The put products that give them kick-backs at the top of searches, or products by companies that they have purchased (by virtue of having so much cash to throw around).


Oh nooooooooooooo! Someone who comes to my online store front might be shown things I want to sell them. I must be the biggest piece of shit....



3. Amazon is not powerful enough to bully local and state governments. If we had a bunch of competing companies it would be more difficult for them to get tax (and other) concessions from our governments. Amazon represents so much money and so many jobs that they are able play our governments against each other to get out of paying taxes.

We do have a bunch of competing companies. They just suck. I ordered a coolant tank for a car on monday. Got it tuesday. Shit used to take a week or two. Be upset at a company for kicking everyone ass all you want. They are gonna get bigger...because they are kicking everyones ass. Its that simple.




4. They are just going to get bigger and more powerful, and keep doing this same stuff on a greater scale. They've killed all their direct competitors in America. Their only real competition now is foreign (folks like Alibaba) who are doing them same thing in their own country.


Amazon, subsidized by the American People, is a monopoly that subverts competition in the market and should be subject to anti-trust action.

Any organization that gets this powerful will act this way in our current system, and it doesn't have to be this way.

Im good with it. I suppose im not the guy who gets bitter at someones success. Im motivated by it.

Hopefully I can think of something that does a job better than anyone ever imagined crush 200 places who werent as good as I am and have haters on the internet mad im so great while ordering my products.

If Amazon didnt work they wouldnt be in every computers browser history and in every phone as an app.

Complain away. Youre complaining to the people who made Amazon what it is.

I have some jerky coming to give my underlings for the breakroom at work. I'll post in here when it arrives. I care what Amazon did to shitty companies as much as I care about taxi drivers mad people can use an app to get better faster service for less money.

When I need to get to the car rental place I uber or lyft. Im not calling a cab. When I need something I dont wanna drive around to find in a real store I order it in 12 seconds on amazon and have it in a day or two. System works. All good.

I dont even know where id go for most of the shit on amazon if I DID want to go to a real store...which to be clear...I dont.

[ralph_i_el]

The problems of a monopoly are well documented. Amazon didn't invent any new technology, or make any breakthrough innovation. It's not the product of some dominant genius. It's just a bunch of rich folks who put their money together in order to take over an industry and destroy their competition.

This has happened numerous times, and the impact has been studied in depth.

Go read about Standard Oil. When something really essential gets monopolized, usually the government needs to step in.

Look at Microsoft. Once they got a certain % of the market, they could freeze out different operating systems from working with their hardware, and freeze out software from working with their operating system. Other tech companies couldn't really get a start if Microsoft didn't want them to. When one firm gets too powerful, competition ends. Competition is what gets us better goods and a lower price. That's why the government broke up Microsoft.

[Kblaze8855]

Amazon isnt oil. Nobody...noooooooooobody needs amazon. Amazon is something we want. They filled a void we didnt know was there. They did it better....and kicked everyones ass at it. Amazon could go away tomorrow. Its hardly a load bearing pillar of my world the way microsoft or oil would have been for many people at their peaks.

Amazon is a dominant convenience.

[Ben Simmons 25]

this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuvEJ-U1UDc)



FOR THE RECORD, "DESERVING" IT OR NOT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT. TIME TO WAKE UP TO THE FACT THAT LIFE ISN'T FAIR. HELLO? THE ROLE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ISN'T TO MAKE LIFE FAIR.


the trickle down hustle. roger ailes, sean hannity, etc have somehow brainwashed the working poor into believing that they (the oligarchs) being taxed the same rates they were when 'murrica was supposedly great = the greatest injustice imaginable.

and now our top tax rates are back to great depression era levels.

and guess what's on the horizon.

https://www.investmentweek.co.uk/investment-week/news/3069659/investors-turn-bearish-as-73-predict-recession

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-national-debt-2-trillion-donald-trump-presidency-deficit-treasury-congressional-budget-office-a8710546.html

i know, you look shocked.

We're going to go into a recession ultimately because we never actually did anything to pay for our ****ups leading up to the 2008 financial crisis. All the federal reserve did was print more money and keep interest rates at 0 for a decade. But I'm glad you think it's as simple as Trump increasing the deficit. I'm glad you think it's that simple.

The IRS should not exist. Taxes should be handled at a state level and a state level only unless it's a national emergency. The only reasons the IRS "needs" to exist are because 1) we have an insanely over inflated military and 2) people think the federal government should be taking care of them instead of getting out there and getting a ****ing job and planning for their future. In other words, the IRS only exists because people have a false sense of what the federal government should be doing in our lives, which is not much.

If we got rid of 1 and 2, we would not need a national tax collector. In fact, I'm quite confident that the founding fathers of this ****ing country literally gave their lives and spilled blood so that we weren't being unjustly taxed without representation, which is essentially exactly what's going on today. The people in DC do not have your best interest at heart. VERY few of them. It's not a R/D thing, either, so let's not go there.

[ralph_i_el]

Amazon isnt oil. Nobody...noooooooooobody needs amazon. Amazon is something we want. They filled a void we didnt know was there. They did it better....and kicked everyones ass at it. Amazon could go away tomorrow. Its hardly a load bearing pillar of my world the way microsoft or oil would have been for many people at their peaks.

Amazon is a dominant convenience.

We're talking about scale here. Things must be sold and delivered to people. For one person, maybe it's not a necessity. For society at large I think it is.

I don't think that a lot of the things we are saying are mutually exclusive. We have a different perspective on this. The way I see things doesn't get a lot of airtime, so I take my opportunities to advocate for it.

It's good to talk about stuff like this and I'm glad we have. Not too many folks can speak in good faith on the internet and resist descending into trolling.

[Ben Simmons 25]

We're talking about scale here. Things must be sold and delivered to people. For one person, maybe it's not a necessity. For society at large I think it is.

I don't think that a lot of the things we are saying are mutually exclusive. We have a different perspective on this. The way I see things doesn't get a lot of airtime, so I take my opportunities to advocate for it.

It's good to talk about stuff like this and I'm glad we have. Not too many folks can speak in good faith on the internet and resist descending into trolling.

Things don't need to be sold and delivered to people via online shopping. They can easily go to a brick & mortar retailer.

If Amazon folded up shop tomorrow, the only thing that would change in your life is your convenience level.

[tpols]

FOR THE RECORD, "DESERVING" IT OR NOT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT. TIME TO WAKE UP TO THE FACT THAT LIFE ISN'T FAIR. HELLO? THE ROLE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ISN'T TO MAKE LIFE FAIR.


they need it to be somewhat fair to have consumers... if shit slips too much with us, eventually...theyre going to too because there will be no demand.

[ralph_i_el]

You're right, you don't deserve to get rich people's money. Now you're figuring it out...



We're going to go into a recession ultimately because we never actually did anything to pay for our ****ups leading up to the 2008 financial crisis. All the federal reserve did was print more money and keep interest rates at 0 for a decade. But I'm glad you think it's as simply as Trump increasing the deficit. I'm glad you think it's that simple.

The IRS should not exist. Taxes should be handled at a state level and a state level only unless it's a national emergency. The only reasons the IRS "needs" to exist are because 1) we have an insanely over inflated military and 2) people think the federal government should be taking care of them instead of getting out there and getting a ****ing job. In other word, the IRS only exists because people have a false sense of what the federal government should be doing in our lives, which is not much.

If we got rid of 1 and 2, we would not need a national tax collector. In fact, I'm quite confident that the founding fathers of this ****ing country literally gave their lives and spilled blood so that we weren't being unjustly taxed without representation, which is essentially exactly what's going on today. The people in DC do not have your best interest at heart. VERY few of them. It's not a R/D thing, either, so let's not go there.

Some would say that the founding fathers gave their lives and spilled their blood because they were afraid the King was going to outlaw slavery. Slavery was outlawed in the UK in....1772. It took a while for slaves in the colonies to get their freedom.....luckily our founding fathers escaped the dastardly King before that!

[tpols]

Things don't need to be sold and delivered to people via online shopping. They can easily go to a brick & mortar retailer.

If Amazon folded up shop tomorrow, the only thing that would change in your life is your convenience level.


you could say the same thing about communication technology AT&T monopoly ... phones or whatever. You dont NEED it... hop on your horse and deliver a letter you lazy pos.

https://thepatronsaintofsuperheroes.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/paul-revere52719.png

[sammichoffate]

you could say the same thing about communication technology AT&T monopoly ... phones or whatever. You dont NEED it... hop on your horse and deliver a letter you lazy pos.

https://thepatronsaintofsuperheroes.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/paul-revere52719.png:lol

[Ben Simmons 25]

you could say the same thing about communication technology AT&T monopoly ... phones or whatever. You dont NEED it... hop on your horse and deliver a letter you lazy pos.

https://thepatronsaintofsuperheroes.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/paul-revere52719.png

The vast majority of cities across the US won't allow you to ride horses as a primary means of transportation.

Additionally, the vast majority of us don't NEED cars or phones or the internet, either. They're all just major conveniences.

[Ben Simmons 25]

they need it to be somewhat fair to have consumers... if shit slips too much with us, eventually...theyre going to too because there will be no demand.

:facepalm

[greymatter]

When someone cant understand why people who arent rich dont want the rich to be taxed even more....seems they cant grasp the reasoning. Some people arent only thinking of themselves. I'll never make 10 million a year. Doesnt mean the people who do owe society more money.

The fact that you talk about this in terms of "owing society" says that you view progressive taxation as the wealthier somehow "paying more than their fair share" and basically subsidizing all those who don't shit gold like they do.

They deserve to pay more because they benefit more from the system that allows them to make more money than the rest of us. The arenas that these NBA superstars play in are heavily subsidized by local taxpayer money. Business owners benefit from the infrastructure that provides them with competent employees, be it via decent public schooling, roads, mass transit, etc. Some of them make a killing leeching off the system that is rigged in their favor because their lobbyists are legally allowed to bribe our politicians.



Really? You think you are the one who informed modern society of the tax laws of generations ago?

Who said I did? I said that to assert that people are generally too ignorant and/or lacking curiosity simply because it was way before their time.


Everyone who ever had a tax discussion knew that taxes used to be much higher. Who could you possibly think didnt know that?

It's quite obvious that you've clearly never had a conversation with "everyone" who's ever talked taxes.

People simply having tax discussions doesn't necessarily make them any better informed about them. I still occasionally run in to ignoramuses (on MBs like this one) who claim to have been working and paying taxes for years say, "I don't want to make X5,000 dollars. I'd rather make X4,999 dollars because I'll get to pay less in taxes" because they have no clue about how tax brackets work.

Most people only talk about them in reference to the recent past and the here-and-now and really couldn't give two shits about how things were back when they were too young to have paid taxes or not born yet.



Case by case. There is a point at which I wouldnt keep putting in the effort to only bring home a third of what I make from that point on. It would depend on the job and how rich I already was.

Another reason why the rich should be taxed much higher is very simple. Middle class and poor people spend most of their money just to get by. Rich people generally hoard it. When you concentrate more wealth at the top, money doesn't flow and the economy suffers. The Trump presidency has basically delayed the economic cycle (recession) by increasing government spending and handing out massive corporate tax cuts. FYI, the tax cuts aren't doing shit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/01/opinion/the-trump-tax-cut-even-worse-than-youve-heard.html

For those too lazy to read, here are some of the biggest takeaways from the massive corporate tax cut:




The key point to realize is that in today’s globalized corporate system, a lot of any country’s corporate sector, our own very much included, is actually owned by foreigners, either directly because corporations here are foreign subsidiaries, or indirectly because foreigners own American stocks. Indeed, roughly a third of U.S. corporate profits basically flow to foreign nationals – which means that a third of the tax cut flowed abroad, rather than staying at home. This probably outweighs any positive effect on GDP growth. So the tax cut probably made America poorer, not richer.

And it certainly made most Americans poorer. While 2/3 of the corporate tax cut may have gone to U.S. residents, 84 percent of stocks are held by the wealthiest 10 percent of the population. Everyone else will see hardly any benefit.

Meanwhile, since the tax cut isn’t paying for itself, it will eventually have to be paid for some other way – either by raising other taxes, or by cutting spending on programs people value. The cost of these hikes or cuts will be much less concentrated on the top 10 percent than the benefit of the original tax cut. So it’s a near-certainty that the vast majority of Americans will be worse off thanks to Trump’s only major legislative success.

Paul Krugman might not be to some peoples' taste, but then again those schlubs aren't Nobel laureates who know wtf they're talking about.



You dont make people richer by letting them keep their money. I dont know where people got the idea that its doing someone a favor to take less of their money. It isnt. Its their money to begin with. They are supposed to get richer when they keep generating it. Why on earth would I want to prevent someone from possessing what they earn? They money isnt being pulled from my childrens mouth. They get the money the same way anyone does. Other people giving it to them. Depending on the industry it it could be a few people...or millions giving a penny here and there...but they are given the money by society. It isnt stolen. That they use that money to make more money is none of my concern.

Already addressed.



GE employs 300+ thousand people without another 200 thousand in support companies indirectly. Ge is paying this planet in a thousand ways. How many things do you think get taxed before a generator that powers a quarter million homes is built and installed in a power plant? How much gas...shipping...how much material is bought...how many people pay income tax from the salary Gm pays...how much land is purchased...how many things must property taxes be paid on? Just so happens the largest turbine plant they have in the world is literally up the street from me. I live in greenville south carolina as many here have heard me say before. Do you know how well GM pays? Ive known people working there all my life. My friends parents were making 30 dolllars an hour in the early 90s. Who knows what it is now.

Ge generates massive tax revenue in a dozen ways. You cant run a company of that size for free. You cant do anything for free.

If GE is successful and making money, why do they deserve to pay no taxes? Just because their employees pay taxes? That's probably the stupidest excuse I've ever heard to justify a large company paying zero corporate income tax.


And the living wage shit is hilarious to me.

-snipped for brevity



If you're done bloviating on that soap box, you might ask yourself what options people working in mom-n-pop grocery/hardware stores have when Walmart rolls into their smallish rural city/town.

http://time.com/money/4192512/walmart-stores-closing-small-towns/

And then in some cases, pack up shop and leave after ruining the local businesses and economy. What do you tell the guy who closed up shop and wound up working for Walmart (when he could no longer compete with them) only to lose his job a few years later? Move out of his little shithole town that he grew up in and settled in to go find a real job in some bigger city?

Yeah, I know that not everyone working at Walmart fits the above narrative. My whole point about Walmart is that they're a leech on the system.

[DMAVS41]

The ignoring in this thread by some people of the pure luck of what kind of situation you are born into and with specific genes you have... is pretty absurd.

And, there simply has to be some redistribution of wealth at some point because even the wealthiest people would agree that some version of wealth inequality ruins society for them as well...

Some form of a progressive tax rate makes sense in theory, but as many have pointed out...the wealthy will often find ways to shield their money as best they can.

That is why philosophical education is paramount in my opinion. If people were educated about the illusion of libertarian free will and were able to adopt a more rational compassion...we wouldn't view this life in such a selfish manner and realize that we are all in this together...and actually live like that...rather than just say it.

And, yes, taxing the ultra wealthy a bit more is one piece of fixing some of these problems, but they have to willingly agree to it...and want to do it...otherwise it won't have the societal impact it could...

As an aside...pretty much agree with everything greymatter stated above

[greymatter]

The IRS should not exist. Taxes should be handled at a state level and a state level only unless it's a national emergency. The only reasons the IRS "needs" to exist are because 1) we have an insanely over inflated military and 2) people think the federal government should be taking care of them instead of getting out there and getting a ****ing job and planning for their future. In other words, the IRS only exists because people have a false sense of what the federal government should be doing in our lives, which is not much.


Good luck ever trying to gut SS and military spending. I'm ok with SS because at least you pay into it and (hopefully) get it back. The military has a shitty ROI and is a massive drain on our economy. Look no further than the epitome of bloated budget and behind schedule.....the F-35. Only costs 1.5 trillion over its scheduled lifetime of service.

[DMAVS41]

We just have trouble accepting that peoples lives are ****ed up because they ****ed them up....

If you are elderly or disabled...ok. Young and healthy? You can go **** yourself. This is america. A young healthy person doesnt have to keep a bad job for life if he has a speck of common sense.


One of the more ignorant and surface level comments on the topic.

Do some research on just how ****ed you are in this society with certain levels of general intelligence without being lucky enough to have great family / friend support.

[greymatter]

---Snipped conservatard ramblings--


I'd comfortably wager that there's about a 0% chance that you'd know off-hand (that means without looking it up) what the top income tax brackets were changed to during the Reagan to Bush to Clinton eras (1980 --> 2000).

[Hawker]

I'd comfortably wager that there's about a 0% chance that you'd know off-hand (that means without looking it up) what the top income tax brackets were changed to during the Reagan to Bush to Clinton eras (1980 --> 2000).

It doesn't matter. Tax receipts have stayed the same. You know how to read a graph right? You're ignorant to the change of tax laws in the first place...loopholes, deductions and special privileges were taken away in exchange for a much lower tax rate. Nobody ever paid those rates so continue to repeat like an idiot where tax rates were in the past with no detail does a disservice to everyone. You're not telling the full story.

Imagine being so illiterate that you think tax cuts are an expense to be paid for.

[eliteballer]

When someone cant understand why people who arent rich dont want the rich to be taxed even more....seems they cant grasp the reasoning. Some people arent only thinking of themselves. I'll never make 10 million a year. Doesnt mean the people who do owe society more money

Here's what you're missing...the wealthy and politically powerful whether you want to talk about private citizens, companies, industries or whoever through lobbying, lawmaking, political donations, industry cartels and countless other methods...have shaped and structured society and laws over time through their privilege to leverage and skewer it heavily in their favor whether it's through taxes, regulations, monopolies etc. so that their wealth and power accumulation grows exponentially without reason:


Inside the Secretive World of Tax-Avoidance Experts


The 1% grabbed 82% of all wealth created in 2017


Oxfam: World's richest 26 own same wealth as poorest half



World's 26 richest people own as much as poorest 50%, says Oxfam

Charity calls for 1% wealth tax, saying it would raise enough to educate every child not in school

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/elite-wealth-management/410842/

https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/21/news/economy/davos-oxfam-inequality-wealth/index.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/oxfam-world-richest-26-wealth-poorest-190121054249908.html

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/21/world-26-richest-people-own-as-much-as-poorest-50-per-cent-oxfam-report

https://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressreleases/2018-01-22/richest-1-percent-bagged-82-percent-wealth-created-last-year

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/21/oxfam-calls-for-global-tax-hikes-for-the-worlds-richest.html

So this thing about "the rich and wealthy should keep what they earned *fair and square*" isn't really what you think it is, because they didn't accumulate it fair and square, much of it is gaming and manipulating the system over time.

America is run by corporations and lobbies, and it's even worse in many other parts of the world.

[Tainted Sword]

I don't understand the idea some have that all rich ppl dont pay their fair share of taxes. I mean, 37% of 100 million is a much larger amount than 22% of 50k, yet that is still not enough. 70% is an absurd amount to pay and it is immoral to expect anyone to give that percentage of their income to a government that has proven itself incapable of responsible spending, especially when the government isnt exacty transparent with how your money is being spent. Clearly alot of these politicians have the budgeting discipline of a spouse who consistently drains the checking account to buy frivelous sh**t.

Socialists like AOC are excellent at creating identity groups to divide and conquer US citizens. The nordic countries tax their middle class at around 50-60%, but these US socialists know that won't fly here so they just demonize the wealthy to galvanize support to rob them. If you're going to tax the rich 70%, tax everyone 70% - that's the only fair way to do it. However, I expect that most Americans would riot before they allow some dumb ish like that to go down.

As kblaze said, reaching middle class status is not difficult to do in this country.

1. Don't have kids out of wedlock that you cannot afford.

2. Don't commit a felony.

3. If you go to college, don't pay 50k plus on a degree that doesnt have economic value.

4. Stop being lazy and use that fancy, expensive iphone that you can't afford to research skills that are in demand. Rich ppl use this very same logic when building their businesses and that is why they make a killing. There are so many trades such as plumbing that are in demand and can pay 60-100k with a few years of experience. You dont even need a college degree to do this stuff.

5. Have discipline when it comes to spending.

[greymatter]

--snip more conservatard nonsense--



Add another wager that you're one of those "special" people who are dumb enough to buy Heritage Foundation Reagonomics tardshit like "tax cuts increase revenue".

[greymatter]

It doesn't matter. Tax receipts have stayed the same. You know how to read a graph right? You're ignorant to the change of tax laws in the first place...loopholes, deductions and special privileges were taken away in exchange for a much lower tax rate. Nobody ever paid those rates so continue to repeat like an idiot where tax rates were in the past with no detail does a disservice to everyone. You're not telling the full story.

Imagine being so illiterate that you think tax cuts are an expense to be paid for.

In case you're too slow to understand my response, I'll simplify it for you.

You've done nothing but regurgitate oft-debunked (by literally every economist who isn't a complete retard) standard Reaganomics apologist talking points that the likes of Heritage Foundation puts out for people like yourself.

[DMAVS41]

I don't understand the idea some have that all rich ppl dont pay their fair share of taxes. I mean, 37% of 100 million is a much larger amount than 22% of 50k, yet that is still not enough. 70% is an absurd amount to pay and it is immoral to expect anyone to give that percentage of their income to a government that has proven itself incapable of responsible spending, especially when the government isnt exacty transparent with how your money is being spent. Clearly alot of these politicians have the budgeting discipline of a spouse who consistently drains the checking account to buy frivelous sh**t.

Socialists like AOC are excellent at creating identity groups to divide and conquer US citizens. The nordic countries tax their middle class at around 50-60%, but these US socialists know that won't fly here so they just demonize the wealthy to galvanize support to rob them. If you're going to tax the rich 70%, tax everyone 70% - that's the only fair way to do it. However, I expect that most Americans would riot before they allow some dumb ish like that to go down.

As kblaze said, reaching middle class status is not difficult to do in this country.

1. Don't have kids out of wedlock that you cannot afford.

2. Don't commit a felony.

3. If you go to college, don't pay 50k plus on a degree that doesnt have economic value.

4. Stop being lazy and use that fancy, expensive iphone that you can't afford to research skills that are in demand. Rich ppl use this very same logic when building their businesses and that is why they make a killing. There are so many trades such as plumbing that are in demand and can pay 60-100k with a few years of experience. You dont even need a college degree to do this stuff.

5. Have discipline when it comes to spending.


That is all "easy" if you are born with suitable broad level intelligence and into decent circumstances with two parents...etc.

Unfortunately, many people are born (and certainly didn't ask to be born at all) into situations that produce humans that aren't capable of the above. It produces dumb, overwhelmed, and unhealthy individuals that need a lot of help.

Is our country the best? Yep.

Is capitalism the best system? Yep.

But we can and should do better given the resources we have.

And, of course, money alone isn't fixing this...it will take a culture shift. But money is usually the best way to facilitate the type of wide sweeping change we need in this country to reduce people from entering the world with the genes and circumstances that reliably produce what we see.

I agree with your list above in terms of a good guide for doing well in America...my point is that when the numbers get to where they are...it is kind of hard to blame individuals...

Something much bigger and deeper is going on here when so many people can't do things that intelligent people find trivially easy.

The truth is that intelligent people are often quite ignorant to just how stupid a lot of people are and just how hard it is for them to have things like "discipline" and "common sense"...

[Hawker]

In case you're too slow to understand my response, I'll simplify it for you.

You've done nothing but regurgitate oft-debunked (by literally every economist who isn't a complete retard) standard Reaganomics apologist talking points that the likes of Heritage Foundation puts out for people like yourself.

Numbers don't lie buddy. Straight from the CBO. It's called Hauser's law. Laffer curve as well highlights taxation can only go so far (another economist).

https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/uploads/inline/images/large/tax_rates_graph_ranson.jpg


Keynesian economists aren't the only economists out there. You have monetarists and austrians...keynesians just get way more publicity and is what is taught in the 10th grade textbooks.

As to your point about Wal-mart, I bet there were a lot of people in those rural towns that liked they could get their goods at 9-10pm at night. Mom and pop places don't stay open that late and usually don't have near the selection Wal-mart would. Stop being so short sighted.

[Tainted Sword]

[/B]

That is all "easy" if you are born with suitable broad level intelligence and into decent circumstances with two parents...etc.

Unfortunately, many people are born (and certainly didn't ask to be born at all) into situations that produce humans that aren't capable of the above. It produces dumb, overwhelmed, and unhealthy individuals that need a lot of help.

Is our country the best? Yep.

Is capitalism the best system? Yep.

But we can and should do better given the resources we have.

And, of course, money alone isn't fixing this...it will take a culture shift. But money is usually the best way to facilitate the type of wide sweeping change we need in this country to reduce people from entering the world with the genes and circumstances that reliably produce what we see.

I agree with your list above in terms of a good guide for doing well in America...my point is that when the numbers get to where they are...it is kind of hard to blame individuals...

Something much bigger and deeper is going on here when so many people can't do things that intelligent people find trivially easy.

The truth is that intelligent people are often quite ignorant to just how stupid a lot of people are and just how hard it is for them to have things like "discipline" and "common sense"...

I try to avoid having the mindset that such a broad and diverse demographic in this country are so dumb and incapable of taking care of themselves that it is the sacred duty of the government to care for them as if they were a bunch of invalids. I feel that is an elitist way to view things.

I blame the lack of knowledge you speak of on the education system. We pump more money than almost any other nation into it and it consistently fails to produce quality results. The only solution most politicians have is to pump more dough into it which is the very definition of insanity. Spending more on public education without addressing the systemic flaws that are failing children today is like someone repeatly investing in penny stocks with the hopes of striking rich. I think the tax revenue the government currently generates would go a long way if these politicians were more responsible with their spending and were held to the same management standards as an executive.

1. Civics should be taught every year beginning in jr high and students should be required to pass a civics exam before graduation.

2. Simple budgeting and financial classes should be taught every year starting in hs.

3. School counselors need to stop pushing college as the end all be all and students should be educated about the trade options that are available as well. As I said, there are alot of trade skills that are in demand and that currently have severe shortages now that boomers are retiring. Becoming a plumber or electrician is preferable to trying to make a career out of working at walmart.

4. There needs to be an emphasis on teaching these trades in hs like back in the day.

[greymatter]

[/B]

That is all "easy" if you are born with suitable broad level intelligence and into decent circumstances with two parents...etc.

Unfortunately, many people are born (and certainly didn't ask to be born at all) into situations that produce humans that aren't capable of the above. It produces dumb, overwhelmed, and unhealthy individuals that need a lot of help.

Is our country the best? Yep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPHSXUS0_1c

Aside from the above, the only things I'll say the US is bar none the best at is hemorrhaging money on military spending, bending over its citizens on health care costs, and producing the world's best basketball players.


Is capitalism the best system? Yep.

The US, like many others, has a "mixed economic" system. Never been "pure" capitalist.


But we can and should do better given the resources we have.

And, of course, money alone isn't fixing this...it will take a culture shift. But money is usually the best way to facilitate the type of wide sweeping change we need in this country to reduce people from entering the world with the genes and circumstances that reliably produce what we see.

I agree with your list above in terms of a good guide for doing well in America...my point is that when the numbers get to where they are...it is kind of hard to blame individuals...

Something much bigger and deeper is going on here when so many people can't do things that intelligent people find trivially easy.

The truth is that intelligent people are often quite ignorant to just how stupid a lot of people are and just how hard it is for them to have things like "discipline" and "common sense"...

The most politically astute (and often most sardonic and/or pessimistic) individuals I come across on other MBs generally express the sentiment that "we get the government we deserve".

[greymatter]

Numbers don't lie buddy. Straight from the CBO. It's called Hauser's law. Laffer curve as well highlights taxation can only go so far (another economist).

https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/uploads/inline/images/large/tax_rates_graph_ranson.jpg

Your numbers don't say what you imagine them to say. Revenue went down the year after Reagan dropped the top bracket from 70 to 50%. He offset the revenue decrease by raising payroll taxes, which surprise surprise, affected middle class small business owners more than the rich. The only reason why revenues didn't go down after his next top bracket drop in 1986 (50 -> 28) was because the economy was booming by then and his tax increases elsewhere were more than enough to offset it. HW Bush was forced to renege on his campaign promise to not raise taxes because he was responsible enough to deem that Reagan's massive deficits were unsustainable, causing him to be a 1 termer.

Bottom line is that trickle-down theory is for dipshits.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2017-12-15/the-mostly-forgotten-tax-increases-of-1982-1993

Revenue also declined immediately after W's tax cuts. While some of it could be attributed to the dotcom burst, his tax cuts didn't generate any increased revenue. Tax revenue didn't get back to 2001 levels until the GDP grew 10+% higher (than 2001 levels) by 2005. Yet another proven failure of trickle down theory.



Keynesian economists aren't the only economists out there. You have monetarists and austrians...keynesians just get way more publicity and is what is taught in the 10th grade textbooks.[/supply]

It's been a long while since I bothered to read about these differing economic schools, but I'm willing to guess that supply siders are still considered imbeciles who have about as much of a chance of being Nobel Laureates as Trump has of being awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom after he leaves office.

[quote]As to your point about Wal-mart, I bet there were a lot of people in those rural towns that liked they could get their goods at 9-10pm at night. Mom and pop places don't stay open that late and usually don't have near the selection Wal-mart would. Stop being so short sighted.

Unlike you, being able to buy stuff at a shitty supermarket after 10pm isn't on my list of things that make a town worth living in. The types of supermarkets that open 24 hours generally have crap I wouldn't buy.

And it's apparent that you offer nothing useful to say with regards to the lots of people in rural towns that have to travel 30+ minutes into nearby towns to do their shopping because Walmart packed up and left after driving their local mom/pop places out of business.

[DMAVS41]

I try to avoid having the mindset that such a broad and diverse demographic in this country are so dumb and incapable of taking care of themselves that it is the sacred duty of the government to care for them as if they were a bunch of invalids. I feel that is an elitist way to view things.

I blame the lack of knowledge you speak of on the education system. We pump more money than almost any other nation into it and it consistently fails to produce quality results. The only solution most politicians have is to pump more dough into it which is the very definition of insanity. Spending more on public education without addressing the systemic flaws that are failing children today is like someone repeatly investing in penny stocks with the hopes of striking rich. I think the tax revenue the government currently generates would go a long way if these politicians were more responsible with their spending and were held to the same management standards as an executive.

1. Civics should be taught every year beginning in jr high and students should be required to pass a civics exam before graduation.

2. Simple budgeting and financial classes should be taught every year starting in hs.

3. School counselors need to stop pushing college as the end all be all and students should be educated about the trade options that are available as well. As I said, there are alot of trade skills that are in demand and that currently have severe shortages now that boomers are retiring. Becoming a plumber or electrician is preferable to trying to make a career out of working at walmart.

4. There needs to be an emphasis on teaching these trades in hs like back in the day.

Completely agree about education, and some of the ideas above are solid ones in terms of real life prep for our youth, but that is only one factor. It is not a clean and easy problem.

It is a simple fact that general intelligence is very difficult to improve even with great education. Unfortunately, humans are victims of our genetics in powerful ways...and until we as a society come to terms with the fact that some people are blessed with great intelligence they did nothing to earn...and some are absolutely screwed with very low intelligence that they have to no fault of their own...we'll continue fail to create certain aspects of society that are beneficial to everyone.

Culture is another problem. Asian culture, for example, when it comes to a lot of the characteristics you described in your previous post...is way ahead of the game. Not only do they, broadly, have a higher level of general intelligence, but their culture pushes discipline, accountability, hard work...etc.

I'm actually not in favor of government welfare in the capacity we currently have it, but why would you doubt that certain subsets of our population are incapable of taking care of themselves? We are running that science experiment and have been for some time...and a percentage of our population is doing exactly, consistently, what you claim to doubt.

[DMAVS41]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPHSXUS0_1c

Aside from the above, the only things I'll say the US is bar none the best at is hemorrhaging money on military spending, bending over its citizens on health care costs, and producing the world's best basketball players.



The US, like many others, has a "mixed economic" system. Never been "pure" capitalist.



The most politically astute (and often most sardonic and/or pessimistic) individuals I come across on other MBs generally express the sentiment that "we get the government we deserve".

Correct, no system is really "pure" anything...

My point was to ease the fears of some that usually resort to "oh, so you're a socialist" when talking about this stuff. No, I'm not...but I'm in favor of (like any sane individual) of not solely letting the marketplace dictate everything.

Without getting into the weeds on healthcare or military spending...

I'll I will say is that our country is fat and sick far too often because of the horrendous food that has been pushed on us for decades. Free choice is a a sacred thing, but...again, something has to shift if we want the society and world that everyone seems to be fighting for in some form or another.

Most fast food, for example, is essentially poisoning real percentages of the population. Their business is to make people addicted to their food (which is unhealthy) for you. And, kind of hard to blame these companies when the dollar is the only thing that "really" matters in the end for them. My argument is that we need a philosophical shift here if we are going to progress.

You can't have 35% of a population obese and be running even close to optimal. And we are going to blame individual people for this? I just can't...not when like 50% of a population is overweight and unhealthy in some form or another. We've run the experiment...it doesn't work. Things have to change.

Again, we have to first come to the philosophical understanding that humans are not blank slates and that the current system is, to be soft, "sub-optimal" for a large percentage of individuals.

Now, we can either naively say "**** them, just work hard and don't make stupid decisions" or we can come to terms with reality, come together, and at least run a different experiment for a while.

[ralph_i_el]

Now, we can either naively say "**** them, just work hard and don't make stupid decisions" or we can come to terms with reality, come together, and at least run a different experiment for a while.

Exactly. People just have to be willing to try. Most people think that the way things are is just the natural way, but really our present could have turned out much differently, and our future is still up for grabs.

[tpols]

One of the more ignorant and surface level comments on the topic.

Do some research on just how ****ed you are in this society with certain levels of general intelligence without being lucky enough to have great family / friend support.


Kblaze shows very little ability to empathize... He might be a psychopath tbh

[DMAVS41]

Kblaze shows very little ability to empathize... He might be a psychopath tbh

Nah, he's just ignorant to how hard some people actually have it. Even though I disagree with him often, he's obviously quite intelligent as well...and usually it is very difficult for intelligent people to understand just how hard life can be for others that simply don't have that level of general intelligence they do.

I used to be that way as well until I became more educated philosophically and I traveled around the country / world enough to see what reality is like for large groups of people.

Generally I found that the notion of "**** these people, they have themselves to blame"...to often be espoused by people that just haven't spent much time at all contemplating topics like "free will"...and have done little reflection on just how lucky they've been in their own lives.

You don't pick your genes or your environment at birth. To not fully grapple with that is a huge mistake in my opinion.

[Kblaze8855]

Id have to write a novel even by my standards to reply to the multiple posts on what I said...

I will just say this....

My empathy is limited for the able bodied. And I maintain I probably had the poorest upbringing of any American on ISH. If you came up poorer than me you were literally homeless. Not evicted and staying with family homeless like me. You better have been sleeping under a bridge if you are gonna tell me shit about poverty. Ive lived in 2 of the places listed as the 25 worst neighborhoods in America by crime rate. Type "shemwood crossing" into google news and see the stories on where im from. And all those shootings and stabbings and murders....are today..when its a LOT better than it was 20+ years ago.

I dont know the people in question in passing. They are my family. My friends. My neighbors at times. I came home when I could afford not to. A literal one eyed murderer cuts my grass. A crackhead mechanic gang member works on my car. My neighbor had a fight with a woman who sent her dog after him and he shot it...and it died in my driveway. I saw it happen. I have the pictures in my phone if someone doubts me. Im not some commentator on the hood from afar. I live in it. Have all but a few years of my life. It doesnt really bother me...im used to it. nobody bothers me. But I have spent a lifetime hearing sob stories from ****ups.

Ive got jobs for ****ups who knew I could get them past the drug test...only for them to not show up. been in fights with family who talk about how I dont understand how hard it is when you have a felony. As if its my fault he pulled a gun on a woman in the 90s or nearly beat someone to death at a cookout.

Most people who cant get ahead....there is a reason...and its not society. Its them being lazy...a ****up....or stupid. Its hard to not be able to feed yourself if you dont have 2 of those strikes against you.

Intelligent lazy ****ups are doing fine. A stupid ****up with some work ethic can do fine. You know how many felons have mobile detailing jobs? People out here with a Tony Montana background still buy a 96 Ford Ranger and put a water tank in the back and wash 12 cars a day off facebook contacts alone. You can be lazy and stupid and make 18-29 bucks an hour at a plant if you dont have a record. I know too many people at BMW doing it.

People do legit get haunted by their past...and they change and still cant get ahead due to their past. Felonies. Dropped out of school 20 years ago and dont remember enough to get a GED easily. Lots of things. None of it is anyones fault but theirs....but how do you protect against it? How can you reward them over the people who kept it clean? Know how I ducked felonies? Not being a criminal. Not a stupid one at least. Know why I can get a good job? I didnt quit school to **** hoodrats when I was 16. Why have I advanced at every job I ever had? Because I work harder than anyone. I find who is best...and I do better. I was the best washing cars at toyota. The best in garden at Kmart. I was the best flipping burgers. Now I dont have to do those things.

In America if you cant take care of yourself as a healthy young person...you are lazy, stupid, or ****ed up your life with bad decisions in your past.

None of that is anyones fault.

I can feel a little for stupid. Im not talking disabled of course just....doesnt think things through? But how do you really account for that? This world gives too many chances to people who want them. Someone this morning woke up at 4 to go sweep floors....before going to a real job at 8. My friend tone works at taco bell, home depot, and a gas station to take care of SEVEN kids. And hes got felonies...AND no license.

Meanwhile we have people like my 46 year old cousin I had to literally remove from his moms home by force after our mutual grandmother passed and he lost the roof over his head. 46 years old been living with family mooching all his life. I told them 20 years ago that all that would happen is hed never learn to stand on his own two like I had to. He just bounces from older family member to older family member mooching. And hes a smart guy. He went to some college. Knows history....the law. Hes just a lazy asshole.

I kick him out....his mom gets me to kick him out of there too....he goes to the streets after some woman kicked him out. Then what?

Gets a damn job while living with friends. I front him the money for steel toed shoes for work(ill help a man get a job and get to work all day...im not helping you sleep on my couch). He keeps a job now because he has no choice. Has his own place for the first time ever. Still no car...but hes not a burden on anyone else. Hes never gonna thank me...but he admitted to his mom I was right.

A LOT of people just have to be kicked in the ass to man up. a lot.

All? No. Some people are legit disabled. Or too old. I think we need to do MORE for the elderly, disabled, and kids in some situations.

A healthy 25 year old in America?

Yea...**** em. And I say it proudly. Being coddled is not doing anyone a favor long term. Thats how you end up homeless when your parents die.

Help the sick. The injured. Give people laid off a bridge to find something else.

You in your prime not doing all you can do to better yourself? You stick with a 8 dollar a year job for 12 years like a moron? Im not one bit sorry to say you can go **** yourself. If after years in retail nobody promoted you its because you arent worth a damn. You only stay at the bottom when theres no reason to reach down for you.

Stop treating so many people with kid gloves they would act like adults. The ones that cant? Ok. Im all for helping. Im not against helping the unfortunate. Im against treating all poor people like they cant do anything about it.

Show me where to sign....id double disabled benefits and programs to help the elderly who live alone right now. If youre 25 and healthy?

I have nothing for you but advice. Take it...and then go be a man.

[DMAVS41]

Most people who cant get ahead....there is a reason...and its not society. Its them being lazy...a ****up....or stupid.



Yep, I agree.

Now try to figure out where that person is ultimately responsible for being lazy or a **** up or stupid...

You won't find it.

Just like you won't find why you are the way you are. Your genes and environment (which you didn't choose) led you to be the successful and intelligent person you are...and you can't take credit for it ultimately.

What you say above is true in the sense that if people could do the things you prescribe...they'd be better off.

But a lot of people can't do them...and year after year they can't...reliably and consistently...

And we're supposed to just say "**** them"...and not try to run a different experiment that might yield better results?

Nah, that doesn't make sense when you understand how the universe works.

[Kblaze8855]

So some young healthy people are incapable of being hard workers? Just....cant be done. I understand you correctly?

[DMAVS41]

It would depend on how you are defining incapable.

All I will say is...year after year...certain subsets of people can't do what you say...

And while my advice to those individuals would probably mirror yours very closely...

I know they aren't ultimately responsible for the person they are...and I'm not going to say "**** them"...

I'm going to try and run a different experiment that can reduce the number of people that aren't able to make things work.

[Kblaze8855]

IVe seen too many lazy parasites living off old women to go the "Its not his fault" route on grown men who choose not to apply themselves. Some people are just pieces of shit.

[DMAVS41]

IVe seen too many lazy parasites living off old women to go the "Its not his fault" route on grown men who choose not to apply themselves. Some people are just pieces of shit.

Yes, on the level of analysis you are doing...I completely agree.

However, that adult "piece of shit"...was once a child that didn't ask to be born and he didn't pick his genes or environment that produced the grown man they became.

Were they a "piece of shit" when they were 5 years old?

I'm talking about the fact that good or bad...human beings can't take ultimate credit / blame for who they are and their actions...we know too much to naively think that.

So I'm simply arguing that, knowing that, compassion and understanding should trump hate and judgment...and we should try to organize our society in a way that benefits the most people.

So far we've done a really good job, but I think we clearly can do better...and in my opinion, a big step to making necessary changes would be convincing people like you on things like the lack of libertarian free will and a more rational compassion for others...even if we despise who they are and their behaviors.

[Kblaze8855]

As I said im down to increase help for kids in some situation...im all for better education and support for kids who have potential. But what the real world is....is dozens of millions of existing pieces of shit. And you cant treat them with kid gloves because whatever ****ed them up happened in 1982. You cant fix these idiots by letting them off the hook for their current behavior. You may not be able to fix them at all. And when I have to choose who to support and who to throw out of the boat....sorry...the 29 year old who robbed an old lady at 19 after dropping out of school at 17 can go over the edge.

[DMAVS41]

As I said im down to increase help for kids in some situation...im all for better education and support for kids who have potential. But what the real world is....is dozens of millions of existing pieces of shit. And you cant treat them with kid gloves because whatever ****ed them up happened in 1982. You cant fix these idiots by letting them off the hook for their current behavior. You may not be able to fix them at all. And when I have to choose who to support and who to throw out of the boat....sorry...the 29 year old who robbed an old lady at 19 after dropping out of school at 17 can go over the edge.

Who is saying to let them off the hook and not hold them accountable?

Of course I agree that there are millions of existing pieces of shit (in terms of how you are defining that phrase)...

To the bold...that is my point...we reliably produce these people....year after year after year...

Where we differ is that I'm not going to just say "**** them"...and I'm going to try and run a society that doesn't reliably produce as many of these people

Let me put it his way...do you agree that some combination of genes and environment is what led these people to be "pieces of shit"?

[Kblaze8855]

Running a society that produces less of them in the future doesnt fix the problem of millions of them already existing. The people are already walking around. What you do for kids yet to be born has nothing to do with the current pieces of shit. All you do by telling them it isnt their fault is making them less likely to make the changes to improve. You see someone make a major turn around one thing is pretty common...

Them realizing that their own behavior was the issue.

Of course everyone is a product of their genetics and the life they lived. But again...that doesnt do ANYTHING for the problem of millions of adults already existing who arent willing to apply themselves.

[DMAVS41]

Running a society that produces less of them in the future doesnt fix the problem of millions of them already existing. The people are already walking around. What you do for kids yet to be born has nothing to do with the current pieces of shit. All you do by telling them it isnt their fault is making them less likely to make the changes to improve. You see someone make a major turn around one thing is pretty common...

Them realizing that their own behavior was the issue.

Of course everyone is a product of their genetics and the life they lived. But again...that doesnt do ANYTHING for the problem of millions of adults already existing who arent willing to apply themselves.

I'm not arguing that we tell them it isn't their fault though. I've never said that.

Sadly, most of the people you are talking about wouldn't even understand the type of conversation it would take.

Again, I already said my advice / solution to the existing people you speak of would likely be very similar to yours...but I think you lose sight of what turned these people into what they are when you say things like "**** them" and call them "pieces of shit"...

I'd rather see people like you say..."we reliably produce people like this...what can we do to limit that in the future and what can we do now to help"...

Rather than some of the things you've uttered.

And if you agree we are all just products of genes and environment...I'd argue that a true understanding of that would produce a far more compassionate view than yours.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't hold people accountable for their actions and have rules and laws and punishments in society...we absolutely should.

And, to bring it back to money / taxes...it takes that to try and solve any of these issues...whether it is creating the best society for unborn children or what to do with the "pieces of shit" you say exist by the millions.

If we want to change these reliable outcomes...it is going to take a movement from wealthy / intelligent people...and I'd argue that part of that change would be some reduction in the wealth inequality gap. Obviously that is only one part of the equation, but that part of it is related to the tax questions.

While I'm skeptical of UBI...I do think Andrew Yang, for example, has some interesting ideas on why it would work and where he'd get the money from.

[Kblaze8855]

The guy I had to kick out of two different homes was in his 40s...a non drug addict...and stealing his own grandmothers valuables to get petty cash so he didnt look like he didnt have money to go out.

Forgive me...my compassion rate is zero. Pieces of shit do exist and its perfectly fine to acknowledge them. Some people are killers...rapists....some people hate hispanics...or steal....some people are lazy parasites..many reasons for all those issues exist.

It doesnt mean its wrong to call the finished product what it is.

If you are an able bodied adult male who refuses to work and has your grandma hiding her change purse when she goes to bed so you dont steal 2 dollars for swisher sweets...**** you.

I dont feel any need to soften that stance.

[jongib369]

Well god damn...After what I said in OTC this conversation was quite beneficial to me.

[DMAVS41]

The guy I had to kick out of two different homes was in his 40s...a non drug addict...and stealing his own grandmothers valuables to get petty cash so he didnt look like he didnt have money to go out.

Forgive me...my compassion rate is zero. Pieces of shit do exist and its perfectly fine to acknowledge them. Some people are killers...rapists....some people hate hispanics...or steal....some people are lazy parasites..many reasons for all those issues exist.

It doesnt mean its wrong to call the finished product what it is.

If you are an able bodied adult male who refuses to work and has your grandma hiding her change purse when she goes to bed so you dont steal 2 dollars for swisher sweets...**** you.

I dont feel any need to soften that stance.

We are talking past each other on this point.

I've already agreed that those people do exist and should be held accountable. You don't have to keep telling me about these people because I'm well aware and have spent quite a bit of time on this in my life.

However, where we actually diverge is the compassion piece. When I see these people...I feel compassion because I know they were once just an innocent little 5 year old kid that is a victim of genes and environment (like we all are)...

And when I reflect on how lucky I am to not have those genes and environment...phrases like "**** them" and "pieces of shit" just don't make much sense

Again, this is where some form of a UBI could really alter behavior and make sweeping changes to our society. Obviously there is no quick fix or one solution, but I do think that is a step in the right direction.

Maybe some of these people you speak of wouldn't be stealing from their grandmother if they were getting 1,000 a month and were more free to explore their interests. Just a thought...

[Kblaze8855]

So if I kill 6 people for no reason will it not make sense to call me an asshole murderer because something happened in 1984 to put me on that path?

When a call someone a piece of shit it doesnt mean they never had a chance to be anything else. It means they threatened to kill my grandma for petty cash and I had to talk my family out of disappearing them.

Being an innocent 2 month old baby in the 70s does not mean im wrong to call you what you are today.

[Ben Simmons 25]

DMAVS you seem to think some monolithic government can be developed to cure people of their sociological ailments.

Kblaze has it right. In the United States there are too many opportunities to stay ****ed up as an adult without it being your own doing.

I don’t need to have a ton of back and forth with you to be able to arrive at the conclusion that we have very differing beliefs on life.

Courage is the key to life itself.

The US has far bigger social fabric problems than income inequality.

[DMAVS41]

So if I kill 6 people for no reason will it not make sense to call me an asshole murderer because something happened in 1984 to put me on that path?

When a call someone a piece of shit it doesnt mean they never had a chance to be anything else. It means they threatened to kill my grandma for petty cash and I had to talk my family out of disappearing them.

Being an innocent 2 month old baby in the 70s does not mean im wrong to call you what you are today.

I believe this is getting far off topic and I think a murderer should be locked up or sentenced do death just like you do...and you can use whatever words you like to describe someone.

I personally think it is healthier to view people more through the lens of being a victim of genes and environment like I've said.

The question is...what do we do with these people? With dangers to society...we know we have to lock them up and hope to rehabilitate some percentage that can be.

With someone that is stealing from their family or is just a bad guy (but isn't a true criminal)...those situations, in my opinion, are not as cut and dry and your label of "piece of shit"...

Again, perhaps he wouldn't behave that way with just a couple changes to our society. We already know we are going to produce all these people you keep referencing as is...why not try some different things?

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS you seem to think some monolithic government can be developed to cure people of their sociological ailments.

Kblaze has it right. In the United States there are too many opportunities to stay ****ed up as an adult without it being your own doing.

I don’t need to have a ton of back and forth with you to be able to arrive at the conclusion that we have very differing beliefs on life.

Courage is the key to life itself.

The US has far bigger social fabric problems than income inequality.

I think no such thing at all.

I simply think we can produce better people and a better society than we currently do.

Lets say the bold is true, what do you do with the percentage of people in our society that lack courage? Or how about the percentage that has an IQ below 80?

Again, this is where a philosophical education on things like the illusion of libertarian free will and moral responsibility really matter.

You seem to want to take credit for the fact that you have courage and another person doesn't. And that view, in my opinion, is quite ignorant.

And I never said that income inequality is our biggest problem or that it would fix everything by closing the gap. I simply stated that I think a redistribution of wealth should be a piece of the puzzle when addressing societal concerns.

[DMAVS41]

16% of people in the U.S. have an IQ below 85. That is like 50 million people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kVFYzmigx0

Even if they are good people and work hard...most of these people will need a lot of help in life.

[Tainted Sword]

16% of people in the U.S. have an IQ below 85. That is like 50 million people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kVFYzmigx0

Even if they are good people and work hard...most of these people will need a lot of help in life.


The percentage of those with an iq below 85 who are suffering from severe mental retardation is very small, but I do agree that citizens who fall under that demographic need to be taken care of.

In terms of those who have lower than average IQ's due to nurture, I fail to see what more the government can do to fix their home situations. The only thing that can really be done for a child with crappy parents is to reform the education system (which I dont believe requires additional spending) and hope that the child snaps out of it like I did.

Poverty isnt what holds these inividuals back, it is the lack proper morals taught to them at home. Often times these kids simply check out starting in middle school because their parents dont give a damn.

[bukowski81]

It boggles my mind how many ppl think more government is the solution to all of our problems. Anyone who has been to a dmv or even experienced public education will tell you how terrible the government is at providing services to it's citizens. The ppl running these programs arent held accountable for efficiency and simply think that throwing more money at a problem will fix everything.

Socialists like aoc are cowards. They propose this 70% tax on the rich because they dont have the guts to tax everyone 50% like the nordic countries. I'll be more comfortable paying higher taxes when these parasites become more transparent with how they spend. I'll be more comfortable when these politicians are held to the same standard as a company executive.

Thats not what nordic countries do tough. Yes, the taxes are higher that almost anywhere on the world, but they do have a progressive income tax. Not everyone is taxed at 50%, is like in the USA and everywhere in the world, the more you earn, the higher tax rate. You can check the rates here https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=/Q00.asp&c=nor&l=eng

[Tainted Sword]

Thats not what nordic countries do tough. Yes, the taxes are higher that almost anywhere on the world, but they do have a progressive income tax. Not everyone is taxed at 50%, is like in the USA and everywhere in the world, the more you earn, the higher tax rate. You can check the rates here https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=/Q00.asp&c=nor&l=eng
"Scandinavian income taxes raise a lot of revenue because they are actually rather flat. In other words, they tax most people at these high rates, not just high-income taxpayers. The top marginal tax rate of 60 percent in Denmark applies to all income over 1.2 times the average income in Denmark. From the American perspective, this means that all income over $60,000 (1.2 times the average income of about $50,000 in the United States) would be taxed at 60 percent."

https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-their-government-spending/

So if we were to have a similar tax structure to the nordic countries, the middle class would be taxed 60%. If I made 60000, the gov would take 36,000 to spend however they see fit. There are no board meeting or quarterly reports to hold them accountable. They can't get fired for being incompetent.

[eliteballer]

Id have to write a novel even by my standards to reply to the multiple posts on what I said...

I will just say this....

My empathy is limited for the able bodied. And I maintain I probably had the poorest upbringing of any American on ISH. If you came up poorer than me you were literally homeless. Not evicted and staying with family homeless like me. You better have been sleeping under a bridge if you are gonna tell me shit about poverty. Ive lived in 2 of the places listed as the 25 worst neighborhoods in America by crime rate. Type "shemwood crossing" into google news and see the stories on where im from. And all those shootings and stabbings and murders....are today..when its a LOT better than it was 20+ years ago.

I dont know the people in question in passing. They are my family. My friends. My neighbors at times. I came home when I could afford not to. A literal one eyed murderer cuts my grass. A crackhead mechanic gang member works on my car. My neighbor had a fight with a woman who sent her dog after him and he shot it...and it died in my driveway. I saw it happen. I have the pictures in my phone if someone doubts me. Im not some commentator on the hood from afar. I live in it. Have all but a few years of my life. It doesnt really bother me...im used to it. nobody bothers me. But I have spent a lifetime hearing sob stories from ****ups.

Ive got jobs for ****ups who knew I could get them past the drug test...only for them to not show up. been in fights with family who talk about how I dont understand how hard it is when you have a felony. As if its my fault he pulled a gun on a woman in the 90s or nearly beat someone to death at a cookout.

Most people who cant get ahead....there is a reason...and its not society. Its them being lazy...a ****up....or stupid. Its hard to not be able to feed yourself if you dont have 2 of those strikes against you.

Intelligent lazy ****ups are doing fine. A stupid ****up with some work ethic can do fine. You know how many felons have mobile detailing jobs? People out here with a Tony Montana background still buy a 96 Ford Ranger and put a water tank in the back and wash 12 cars a day off facebook contacts alone. You can be lazy and stupid and make 18-29 bucks an hour at a plant if you dont have a record. I know too many people at BMW doing it.

People do legit get haunted by their past...and they change and still cant get ahead due to their past. Felonies. Dropped out of school 20 years ago and dont remember enough to get a GED easily. Lots of things. None of it is anyones fault but theirs....but how do you protect against it? How can you reward them over the people who kept it clean? Know how I ducked felonies? Not being a criminal. Not a stupid one at least. Know why I can get a good job? I didnt quit school to **** hoodrats when I was 16. Why have I advanced at every job I ever had? Because I work harder than anyone. I find who is best...and I do better. I was the best washing cars at toyota. The best in garden at Kmart. I was the best flipping burgers. Now I dont have to do those things.

In America if you cant take care of yourself as a healthy young person...you are lazy, stupid, or ****ed up your life with bad decisions in your past.

None of that is anyones fault.

I can feel a little for stupid. Im not talking disabled of course just....doesnt think things through? But how do you really account for that? This world gives too many chances to people who want them. Someone this morning woke up at 4 to go sweep floors....before going to a real job at 8. My friend tone works at taco bell, home depot, and a gas station to take care of SEVEN kids. And hes got felonies...AND no license.

Meanwhile we have people like my 46 year old cousin I had to literally remove from his moms home by force after our mutual grandmother passed and he lost the roof over his head. 46 years old been living with family mooching all his life. I told them 20 years ago that all that would happen is hed never learn to stand on his own two like I had to. He just bounces from older family member to older family member mooching. And hes a smart guy. He went to some college. Knows history....the law. Hes just a lazy asshole.

I kick him out....his mom gets me to kick him out of there too....he goes to the streets after some woman kicked him out. Then what?

Gets a damn job while living with friends. I front him the money for steel toed shoes for work(ill help a man get a job and get to work all day...im not helping you sleep on my couch). He keeps a job now because he has no choice. Has his own place for the first time ever. Still no car...but hes not a burden on anyone else. Hes never gonna thank me...but he admitted to his mom I was right.

A LOT of people just have to be kicked in the ass to man up. a lot.

All? No. Some people are legit disabled. Or too old. I think we need to do MORE for the elderly, disabled, and kids in some situations.

A healthy 25 year old in America?

Yea...**** em. And I say it proudly. Being coddled is not doing anyone a favor long term. Thats how you end up homeless when your parents die.

Help the sick. The injured. Give people laid off a bridge to find something else.

You in your prime not doing all you can do to better yourself? You stick with a 8 dollar a year job for 12 years like a moron? Im not one bit sorry to say you can go **** yourself. If after years in retail nobody promoted you its because you arent worth a damn. You only stay at the bottom when theres no reason to reach down for you.

Stop treating so many people with kid gloves they would act like adults. The ones that cant? Ok. Im all for helping. Im not against helping the unfortunate. Im against treating all poor people like they cant do anything about it.

Show me where to sign....id double disabled benefits and programs to help the elderly who live alone right now. If youre 25 and healthy?

I have nothing for you but advice. Take it...and then go be a man.. Kblaze out here dropping 81 point posts

[ralph_i_el]

I guess the perspective that I'm arguing from is that workers could get a better deal. Also, there's a lot of things we could do to reduce the number of POS folks by improving the material conditions of children.

[eliteballer]

Here's what you're missing...the wealthy and politically powerful whether you want to talk about private citizens, companies, industries or whoever through lobbying, lawmaking, political donations, industry cartels and countless other methods...have shaped and structured society and laws over time through their privilege to leverage and skewer it heavily in their favor whether it's through taxes, regulations, monopolies etc. so that their wealth and power accumulation grows exponentially without reason:









https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/elite-wealth-management/410842/

https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/21/news/economy/davos-oxfam-inequality-wealth/index.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/oxfam-world-richest-26-wealth-poorest-190121054249908.html

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/21/world-26-richest-people-own-as-much-as-poorest-50-per-cent-oxfam-report

https://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressreleases/2018-01-22/richest-1-percent-bagged-82-percent-wealth-created-last-year

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/21/oxfam-calls-for-global-tax-hikes-for-the-worlds-richest.html

So this thing about "the rich and wealthy should keep what they earned *fair and square*" isn't really what you think it is, because they didn't accumulate it fair and square, much of it is gaming and manipulating the system over time.

America is run by corporations and lobbies, and it's even worse in many other parts of the world.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/12/indiana-pacers-25-year-deal-team-indy-agree-295-m-deal-over-25-years/3427430002/

[eliteballer]

Here's what you're missing...the wealthy and politically powerful whether you want to talk about private citizens, companies, industries or whoever through lobbying, lawmaking, political donations, industry cartels and countless other methods...have shaped and structured society and laws over time through their privilege to leverage and skewer it heavily in their favor whether it's through taxes, regulations, monopolies etc. so that their wealth and power accumulation grows exponentially without reason:









https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/elite-wealth-management/410842/

https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/21/news/economy/davos-oxfam-inequality-wealth/index.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/oxfam-world-richest-26-wealth-poorest-190121054249908.html

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/21/world-26-richest-people-own-as-much-as-poorest-50-per-cent-oxfam-report

https://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressreleases/2018-01-22/richest-1-percent-bagged-82-percent-wealth-created-last-year

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/21/oxfam-calls-for-global-tax-hikes-for-the-worlds-richest.html

So this thing about "the rich and wealthy should keep what they earned *fair and square*" isn't really what you think it is, because they didn't accumulate it fair and square, much of it is gaming and manipulating the system over time.

America is run by corporations and lobbies, and it's even worse in many other parts of the world.

Go Bernie.

[iamgine]

I'm not sure why we increase tax the more individuals make. If anything we should decrease it. Making a lot of money in capitalist system generally means you have provided goods and services to people. Why should Bill Gates who have been very useful to society be forced to pay higher tax rate than some bum who's just enjoying welfare or a single mother who are just worrying about herself and is useful to no one?

[eliteballer]

I'm not sure why we increase tax the more individuals make. If anything we should decrease it. Making a lot of money in capitalist system generally means you have provided goods and services to people. Why should Bill Gates who have been very useful to society be forced to pay higher tax rate than some bum who's just enjoying welfare or a single mother who are just worrying about herself and is useful to no one?

The fact that you would make such a simplistic argument shows you don't belong in this discussion.

[iamgine]

The fact that you would make such a simplistic argument shows you don't belong in this discussion.

I appreciate your opinion and politely disagree.