Would DeMar Derozan lose to a 10 ppg #2 option?

[TheCorporation]

In the 1998 Finals the Utah Jazz #2 option was the amazing Jeff Hornacek, who put up an astounding 10.7 ppg as the team's #2 option.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfWPZtWD/jordan2.jpg

We bag on DeMar because he always had to face the GOAT King James in the playoffs but what if DeMar was presented with an extremely favorable circumstance, such as playing against a team who's second option was pouring in a blistering 10.7 ppg? Could he too win a series, much like Jordan was able to?

[warriorfan]

Reported

[TheCorporation]

Reported

For...? You didn't even answer the question :facepalm And everything I posted was factual.

[TheImmortal]

Reported

[superduper]

Reported

..wait the Report button hasn't worked for like 2 months. Carry on with your Bran agendas.

[insidehoops]

The report button actually does work. I did receive multiple reports just now for this topic.

what is the report button doing that makes people think it isn't working? does it just sit there when you actually click it or something? Thanks

[TheImmortal]

The report button actually does work. I did receive multiple reports just now for this topic.

what is the report button doing that makes people think it isn't working? does it just sit there when you actually click it or something? Thanks
Sup Jeff.. The report button just loops and doesn't confirm whether or not it was successful.. making it appear broken.

[superduper]

The report button actually does work. I did receive multiple reports just now for this topic.

what is the report button doing that makes people think it isn't working? does it just sit there when you actually click it or something? Thanks

It gets to the "Report Bad Post" page but then constantly loads and goes nowhere when trying to proceed past that page. Not sure if it's just me but I tried it on multiple devices.

[FKAri]

The report button actually does work. I did receive multiple reports just now for this topic.

what is the report button doing that makes people think it isn't working? does it just sit there when you actually click it or something? Thanks
Thank you for paying no heed to the haters and allowing this thread to continue. We can now get back to this stimulating basketball discussion regarding this fascinating hypothetical.

[bullettooth]

GOAT King James

You mean the guy that's lost 6 times in the finals? Swept twice... holds the #1 and #2 record for largest margin of loss, put up 8pts in a finals game and 18ppg against JJ Barea?

That's supposedly GOAT?

[Phoenix]

reported

[LAmbruh]

In the 1998 Finals the Utah Jazz #2 option was the amazing Jeff Hornacek, who put up an astounding 10.7 ppg as the team's #2 option.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfWPZtWD/jordan2.jpg

We bag on DeMar because he always had to face the GOAT King James in the playoffs but what if DeMar was presented with an extremely favorable circumstance, such as playing against a team who's second option was pouring in a blistering 10.7 ppg? Could he too win a series, much like Jordan was able to?
:roll: :roll:

[knicksman]

In the 1998 Finals the Utah Jazz #2 option was the amazing Jeff Hornacek, who put up an astounding 10.7 ppg as the team's #2 option.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfWPZtWD/jordan2.jpg

We bag on DeMar because he always had to face the GOAT King James in the playoffs but what if DeMar was presented with an extremely favorable circumstance, such as playing against a team who's second option was pouring in a blistering 10.7 ppg? Could he too win a series, much like Jordan was able to?

does this mean that lebron is also a 2nd option?:lol

[superduper]

Speaking of Hornacek, why does LeGOAT have his soul owned by this skinny dweeb?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/df/e9/b6/dfe9b6fb5e6c9b7337ce3de469ea9b78.gif

[knicksman]

You mean the guy that's lost 6 times in the finals? Swept twice... holds the #1 and #2 record for largest margin of loss, put up 8pts in a finals game and 18ppg against JJ Barea?

That's supposedly GOAT?

OP is fuming coz he respected someone whos disrespected by us alphas.:lol

It is what is OP. Once lebron cheated, every ring he wins doesnt bring any respect. Thats why players before never dared to form superteams. Thats why lebron is a beta, coz no alpha would ever do that. Alphas are real men who play fair. Only cowards/f@gs cheat. And anyone who respects a cheater are seen as cheap in real life.

[FKAri]

OP is fuming coz he respected someone whos disrespected by us alphas.:lol

It is what is OP. Once lebron cheated, every ring he wins doesnt bring any respect. Thats why players before never dared to form superteams. Thats why lebron is a beta, coz no alpha would ever do that. Alphas are real men who play fair. Only cowards/f@gs cheat. And anyone who respects a cheater are seen as cheap in real life.
Bruh... :oldlol:

[bigkingsfan]

The report button actually does work. I did receive multiple reports just now for this topic.

what is the report button doing that makes people think it isn't working? does it just sit there when you actually click it or something? Thanks
Admin seal of approval :bowdown:

[Gus Hemmingway]

Jeff straight ignoring their cries for halpppp :cry: :roll: :roll:



DAMN :yaohappy:

[3ball]

Derozan < Duncan and Shaq

So yes

derozan would lose to hornacek worse than Duncan and Shaq did

[And1AllDay]

Wow 10.7 ppg as a 2nd option is Mikes toughest team ever??? This can not be tru?

Can ANYONE confirm this? :eek: 3 baLLLLL?

[And1AllDay]

Jeff straight ignoring their cries for halpppp :cry: :roll: :roll:



DAMN :yaohappy:

And yet the h8rs cant even answer a question

Yikes

[And1AllDay]

Bruh... :oldlol:

ikr :roll:

[Duncan21formvp]

That 2nd option dominated Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler, myself and D Robinson, Shaq, Kobe, Eddie Jones, Van Exel.

Damn imagine what he would have done to Lebron. Lebron couldn't even beat Dwight Howard whose 2nd option was Rafer Alston.:roll:

[And1AllDay]

Wow 10.7 ppg as a 2nd option is Mikes toughest team ever??? This can not be tru?

Can ANYONE confirm this? :eek: 3 baLLLLL?

PAGING: 3baLLLLLLL

Can you confirm if this is tru? Mikes toughest opponent second option was 10.7 ppg Jeffrey Hornacek?

3baLLLLL? Anyone? :confusedshrug: Did this really happen?

[Bawkish]

what do you call a Lebron stan with a 70 IQ??





"gifted"





:lol

[jstern]

I don't think so, unless Jason Terry was coming off the bench.

[Gileraracer]

Would DeMar Derozan lose 6 out of 9 finals with 2 of the most stacked teams ever assembled?

[TheCorporation]

Why hasn't anyone answered my question? This is a bizarre site where people don't engage in discussion but feel free to attack others. I say, once more

In the 1998 Finals the Utah Jazz #2 option was the amazing Jeff Hornacek, who put up an astounding 10.7 ppg as the team's #2 option.



We bag on DeMar because he always had to face the GOAT King James in the playoffs but what if DeMar was presented with an extremely favorable circumstance, such as playing against a team who's second option was pouring in a blistering 10.7 ppg? Could he too win a series, much like Jordan was able to?

[Paul George 24]

Why hasn't anyone answered my question? This is a bizarre site where people don't engage in discussion but feel free to attack others. I say, once more

In the 1998 Finals the Utah Jazz #2 option was the amazing Jeff Hornacek, who put up an astounding 10.7 ppg as the team's #2 option.



We bag on DeMar because he always had to face the GOAT King James in the playoffs but what if DeMar was presented with an extremely favorable circumstance, such as playing against a team who's second option was pouring in a blistering 10.7 ppg? Could he too win a series, much like Jordan was able to?
THE GOAT LECHOKE LOSE 6 TIMES IN NBA FINALS :roll:

[bullettooth]

Jeff straight ignoring their cries for halpppp :cry: :roll: :roll:

Would that be the same kind of halpppp that LeBron needs every season for his superteams?

[keep-itreal]

Lebron was guarded by the best defenders in history like Kawhi, Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green.

Michael Jordan was guarded by......Jeff Hornacek:roll:

[bullettooth]

Lebron was guarded by the best defenders in history like Kawhi, Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green.

Michael Jordan was guarded by......Jeff Hornacek:roll:

Yeah! And he managed to win 3 rings against them but lost against a midget JJ Barea.

LeBron's a special case.

[And1AllDay]

Lebron was guarded by the best defenders in history like Kawhi, Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green.

Michael Jordan was guarded by......Jeff Hornacek:roll:

IT'S OVAAAA

[TheCorporation]

Lebron was guarded by the best defenders in history like Kawhi, Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green.

Michael Jordan was guarded by......Jeff Hornacek:roll:

This has been my driving point for years. LeBron was battling against Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Kawhi Leonard, Andrey Igoudala

Jordan was battling against Terry Porter, Jeff Hornacek, John ****ING Starks :lol

[madmax]

In the 1998 Finals the Utah Jazz #2 option was the amazing Jeff Hornacek, who put up an astounding 10.7 ppg as the team's #2 option.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfWPZtWD/jordan2.jpg

We bag on DeMar because he always had to face the GOAT King James in the playoffs but what if DeMar was presented with an extremely favorable circumstance, such as playing against a team who's second option was pouring in a blistering 10.7 ppg? Could he too win a series, much like Jordan was able to?

:lol
not trying to hate on great Jeff or anything, but he genuinely looks like a starving homeless junkie from my shitty neighborhood...what a hero Jordan was for overcoming this monumental obstacle in his path to GOATness:applause: :bowdown:

[knicksman]

lebron first superteam 58 wins, paul pierce 66 and a championship and you want to compare him to jordan. LOL

Increase your standards bron stan.

[And1AllDay]

In the 1998 Finals the Utah Jazz #2 option was the amazing Jeff Hornacek, who put up an astounding 10.7 ppg as the team's #2 option.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfWPZtWD/jordan2.jpg

We bag on DeMar because he always had to face the GOAT King James in the playoffs but what if DeMar was presented with an extremely favorable circumstance, such as playing against a team who's second option was pouring in a blistering 10.7 ppg? Could he too win a series, much like Jordan was able to?


I think DeMar could beat a 10.7 ppg #2 option like mike yes i do

[PickernRoller]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xWnE1SXnTf6nHq/giphy.gif

[keep-itreal]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xWnE1SXnTf6nHq/giphy.gif

Nice flop there, midget

[PickernRoller]

Nice flop there, midget

Gaming Bran at his own game, with half the size to boot, on the biggest stage.

:bowdown:

[And1AllDay]

Lebron was guarded by the best defenders in history like Kawhi, Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green.

Michael Jordan was guarded by......Jeff Hornacek:roll:


burnnnnnnnnn

[superduper]

Speaking of Hornacek, why does LeGOAT have his soul owned by this skinny dweeb?

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/df/e9/b6/dfe9b6fb5e6c9b7337ce3de469ea9b78.gif

Bump

[And1AllDay]

This has been my driving point for years. LeBron was battling against Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Kawhi Leonard, Andrey Igoudala

Jordan was battling against Terry Porter, Jeff Hornacek, John ****ING Starks :lol


issa wrap

[Bronbron23]

Imagine being so stupid as a basketball fan to think that Jeff horn was the jazz second option :facepalm

[RealSkipBayless]

Why hasn't anyone answered my question? This is a bizarre site where people don't engage in discussion but feel free to attack others. I say, once more

In the 1998 Finals the Utah Jazz #2 option was the amazing Jeff Hornacek, who put up an astounding 10.7 ppg as the team's #2 option.



We bag on DeMar because he always had to face the GOAT King James in the playoffs but what if DeMar was presented with an extremely favorable circumstance, such as playing against a team who's second option was pouring in a blistering 10.7 ppg? Could he too win a series, much like Jordan was able to?
Anyone?

[And1AllDay]

Imagine being so stupid as a basketball fan to think that Jeff horn was the jazz second option :facepalm

so the 2nd option was stockton who scored even less at 9.7 :oldlol:

nope

[Bronbron23]

Anyone?
First off Jeff horn wasn't the jazz second option. In the 97 post season Stockton had more points and almost 3 times more assists. In 98 he had stock had same amount of points and double the assists. In the 97 finals in particular Stockton scored more points than horn and 4 times the amount of assists. In 98 horn did score 1 more point a game but again Stockton had almost 4 more assists a game.

So to you and any other idiot who thinks horn was actually the second option my question to yall is do you not count assists as offence? How dumb of a ball fan do u have to be to actually think this :facepalm

[Bronbron23]

so the 2nd option was stockton who scored even less at 9.7 :oldlol:

nope so assists arnt offence all of a sudden?

[And1AllDay]

so assists arnt offence all of a sudden?

So you wanna say the 2nd optoin scored 9.7 and make it even worse :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

Lebron was guarded by the best defenders in history like Kawhi, Andre Iguodala, Draymond Green.

Michael Jordan was guarded by......Jeff Hornacek:roll:

Guys?

[HoopsNY]

Where's Roundball to tear apart this erroneous post? Never mind. He'll probably join in on the bashing. :lol

[TheCorporation]

Where's Roundball to tear apart this erroneous post? Never mind. He'll probably join in on the bashing. :lol

Tear apart what? Facts? :lol

I dont make shit up like you cupcake.

[goozeman]

Team offense is all that matters. That Jazz team is ranked 68th all-time historically, not too shabby. Compare that to the Mavs in 2011 which are ranked at 247. Probably one of the worst offensive teams to ever make the Finals, much less win it all.

[ImKobe]

Them Jazz teams destroyed great WC teams in 97 & 98 and had the 2nd and 1st ranked offenses in those seasons.

1997 - 113.6 ORTG
1998 - 112.7 ORTG

2008 Celtics - 110.2 ORTG
2009 Magic - 109.2 ORTG
2010 Celtics - 107.7 ORTG
2011 Mavs - 109.7 ORTG

[Overdrive]

Of course DeMar couldn't win as the 2010's Karl Malone teamed up with other All Stars.

[warriorfan]

Would DeMar Derozen get outscored by Jason Terry in a 7 game series?

[TheCorporation]

Them Jazz teams destroyed great WC teams in 97 & 98 and had the 2nd and 1st ranked offenses in those seasons.

1997 - 113.6 ORTG
1998 - 112.7 ORTG

2008 Celtics - 110.2 ORTG
2009 Magic - 109.2 ORTG
2010 Celtics - 107.7 ORTG
2011 Mavs - 109.7 ORTG

Yes, with a #2 option being Jeff Hornacek

HENCE, 90s was a WEAK era.

Next

[HoopsNY]

Tear apart what? Facts? :lol

I dont make shit up like you cupcake.

I'm really unsure as to why you're so triggered by me that you feel the need to have a go at me on every thread, lol.

[TheCorporation]

I'm really unsure as to why you're so triggered by me that you feel the need to have a go at me on every thread, lol.

Every thread :lol Don't flatter yourself sweetheart. How them Knicks doing? :lol

[Hey Yo]

Team offense is all that matters. That Jazz team is ranked 68th all-time historically, not too shabby. Compare that to the Mavs in 2011 which are ranked at 247. Probably one of the worst offensive teams to ever make the Finals, much less win it all.
That same Jazz team also historically put up the least amount of points in a Finals game in NBA history. Here what their historical offense achieved in game 3 of the 1998 Finals

Fewest points in a game since the introduction of the shot clock (the previous was 55, established this season by Indiana).

Fewest points in an NBA Finals game (previous was 71 by Syracuse against Fort Wayne in 1955; and Houston against Boston in 1981).

Fewest field goals in a game (21).

Fewest points in a half (23, second half).

It all added up to a 42-point Chicago win, the largest margin of victory in an NBA Finals game (the previous record was 35 points).

[TheCorporation]

That same Jazz team also historically put up the least amount of points in a Finals game in NBA history. Here what their historical offense achieved in game 3 of the 1998 Finals

Fewest points in a game since the introduction of the shot clock (the previous was 55, established this season by Indiana).

Fewest points in an NBA Finals game (previous was 71 by Syracuse against Fort Wayne in 1955; and Houston against Boston in 1981).

Fewest field goals in a game (21).

Fewest points in a half (23, second half).

It all added up to a 42-point Chicago win, the largest margin of victory in an NBA Finals game (the previous record was 35 points).

Yeah but if you take away Malone's on-ball points because of his Stockton turnovers and the multiply Byron Russell pts by 3 for the.extra minutes Jeff Hornacek played and look at the 97 WCF Jazz are GOAT scoring team atually! -3ball math

[Roundball_Rock]

Where's Roundball to tear apart this erroneous post?

I was at Sheetz. :oldlol: I am not reading the entire thread. The OP presents a hypothetical. Yes, if the DeRozan Raptors faced a team whose 2nd and 3rd options score a combined 20 PPG the Raptors would win. Different eras, though. You could make the finals in the late 90's with an old Hornacek as your #2 scorer and Stockton scoring 9.7 as your second best player. Not every contender had a 20 PPG 2nd option in the 90's.

Do you disagree? There isn't much to say about the hypothetical since it is a lopsided scenario.


'm really unsure as to why you're so triggered by me that you feel the need to have a go at me on every thread, lol.

Pot, meet kettle. You mention me in threads I am not even in. :lol


That same Jazz team also historically put up the least amount of points in a Finals game in NBA history. Here what their historical offense achieved in game 3 of the 1998 Finals

Yup. Pippen wrecked their offense with help from Harper on Stockton, MJ on Hornacek, and of course Rodman on Malone. From the New York Times:


At Every Turn, Jazz Finds Pippen; The Bulls' Consummate Defender Picks Apart the Pick-and-Roll

Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.

He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.


:bowdown:

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html

The Jazz's offenses consistently got worse in the playoffs because Malone and Stockton both shrunk a ton in the playoffs--and they got even worse on the finals stage. That's your two HOF players. Hard to overcome that. If they performed close to their RS levels in the PO, they would have multiple rings and would have rivaled Jordan/Pippen as a 90's duo. They didn't. Lucky for them, they can fall back on "Jordan" (who they faced twice--both in winnable series) as an excuse for perennially declining significantly in the playoffs.

What is this DeMar Derozan stuff? Do people really think MJ=Demar?

[tpols]

When you compare a player's numbers against the whole field of teams to playing the 2nd 3peat Bull's defense...? numbers are generally going to be worse for those players. that's just common sense.

[goozeman]

That same Jazz team also historically put up the least amount of points in a Finals game in NBA history. Here what their historical offense achieved in game 3 of the 1998 Finals

Fewest points in a game since the introduction of the shot clock (the previous was 55, established this season by Indiana).

Fewest points in an NBA Finals game (previous was 71 by Syracuse against Fort Wayne in 1955; and Houston against Boston in 1981).

Fewest field goals in a game (21).

Fewest points in a half (23, second half).

It all added up to a 42-point Chicago win, the largest margin of victory in an NBA Finals game (the previous record was 35 points).

That's just a side effect of Sloan's pick-and-roll system going up a goat defensive team in Chicago. Chicago was equipped to shut down that offense perhaps better than any team in history.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's just a side effect of Sloan's pick-and-roll system going up a goat defensive team in Chicago. Chicago was equipped to shut down that offense perhaps better than any team in history.


When you compare a player's numbers against the whole field of teams to playing the 2nd 3peat Bull's defense...? numbers are generally going to be worse for those players. that's just common sense.

Your position on whether defenses impact playoff numbers changes daily. :lol

The problem with your posts, tpols and goozeman, is what about all the series the Malone/Stockton played against teams other than the Bulls? The narrative is this team dominated only to have the misfortune of going up against the arguable GOAT team. The problem is Malone/Stockton faced the Bulls in only two series. What happened in the others?

[ZenMaster7210]

I don't think so, unless Jason Terry was coming off the bench.

:oldlol::oldlol::pimp::facepalm

[HoopsNY]

Pot, meet kettle. You mention me in threads I am not even in.

Pay attention. That comment wasn't for you.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Bulls are a convenient excuse for career long, perennial trends of large declines in the playoffs. We can look at Malone/Stockton before 1997 in the playoffs.

Malone RS 1988-1996: 28/11/3 59% TS
Malone PO 1988-1996: 28/12/3 54% TS

Stockton RS 1988-1996: 16/3/13 62% TS
Stockton PO 1988-1996: 15/3/12 56% TS

They lose 5% and 6% respectively in TS %.

We can look at the first three rounds of the WC too in 97' and 98'.

Malone 97' in the season: 27/10/5 60% TS
Malone 97' in the WC PO: 27/12/3 51% TS

Malone 98' in the season: 27/10/4 60% TS
Malone 98' in the WC PO: 27/11/3 53% TS

So Malone is -9% and -7%.

Stockton 97' in the season: 14/3/11 66% TS
Stockton 97' in the WC PO: 17/4/10 63% TS

Stockton 98' in the season: 12/3/9 63% TS
Stockton 98' in the WC PO: 12/3/7 58% TS

Stockton is -3% and the usual -5%.

In the finals it got even worse:

97' RS efficiency for Malone: 55.0% eFG, 60.0% TS
97' finals efficiency for Malone: 44.3% eFG, 48.5% TS

-11%.

98' RS efficiency for Malone: 53.1% eFG, 59.7% TS
98' finals efficiency for Malone: 50.4%, 55.3%

-5%.

97' RS efficiency for Stockton: 59.8% eFG, 65.6% TS
97' Finals efficiency for Stockton: 54.8% eFG, 61.3% TS

-5%.

98' RS efficiency for Stockton: 56.7% eFG, 62.8% TS
98' Finals efficiency for Stockton: 51.0% eFG, 53.9% TS

Yet again, -5%. :oldlol:

Malone's 98' decline is worse because his RS numbers are deflated by Stockton missing the first 18 games. Without Stockton he shot 52.3%; with Stockton 53.2%.


Where's Roundball to tear apart this erroneous post? Never mind. He'll probably join in on the bashing. :lol

That sure seems to be about me. :lol

[goozeman]

Both can be true, you know. Chicago had a goat defense ideal for shutting down the Jazz, and the Jazz struggled on offense in the playoffs. Sloan's system was like the option in college football. A good option team on occasion take down a much more talented opponent in the regular season because teams rarely practice for it. However, in the postseason with time to prepare, the more talented team will control the option no problem. Same with the Stockton-Malone pick and roll game. Night in and night out with short turn around and little time to prepare Malone and Stockton would wear teams out during the regular season. However, they would get figured out in a seven game series. Jerry Sloan was basically the Marc D'Antoni of that era. Jazz still win a ship if not for Chicago though, and those Jazz teams were championship caliber. Not everything is mutually exclusive.

[Roundball_Rock]

Both can be true, you know. Chicago had a goat defense ideal for shutting down the Jazz, and the Jazz struggled on offense in the playoffs. Sloan's system was like the option in college football. A good option team on occasion take down a much more talented opponent in the regular season because teams rarely practice for it. However, in the postseason with time to prepare, the more talented team will control the option no problem. Same with the Stockton-Malone pick and roll game. Night in and night out with short turn around and little time to prepare Malone and Stockton would wear teams out during the regular season. However, they would get figured out in a seven game series. Jerry Sloan was basically the Marc D'Antoni of that era. Jazz still win a ship if not for Chicago though, and those Jazz teams were championship caliber. Not everything is mutually exclusive.

True. Good analogies on the option in college and D'Antoni's offenses in the 2000's and 2010's.

The other issue is holes in their games showed in the PO in a way they wouldn't in the RS. Stockton simply couldn't score 20 PPG. A lot of Malone's easy dunks and layups in the RS turned into him flipping the ball in the PO.

I place more blame on Stockton than Malone. Part of the problem was those teams lacked a legitimate 2nd option to take pressure off of Malone. He had to carry a high burden of the offense and any superstar placed in that type of situation is set up to fail. Stockton probably was the lowest scoring second option on a contender of that era along with Starks. Some of it was a lack of the skills to score a lot but some of it was his tendency to cherry pick shots. Sometimes you have to take tough shots, especially in the PO.

Part of being great is adapting to meet hurdles. They never did.

They definitely were championship caliber. If the Bulls don't exist I suspect they get a split decision: they beat Miami but lose to Indiana. However, you can play that game in any era. If the Warriors don't exist the Rockets probably have 3 rings, for example. If the Spurs don't exist the SSOL Suns likely win 2 rings.

[Phoenix]

Stockton never had that scorers mentality. You have to wonder if Malone may have been better served by a healthy Mark Price. Price could run the PnR just fine but was a more deadly scorer than Stockton ever was. I recall those Bulls/Cavs matchups in the early 90s well enough to remember how much of a pain in the ass Mark Price was to deal with.

[Nashty]

Why did the reigning champion and FMVP (should have been Gasol) Kobe got outplayed and swept by Jason Terry in 2011?

[HoopsNY]

The Bulls are a convenient excuse for career long, perennial trends of large declines in the playoffs. We can look at Malone/Stockton before 1997 in the playoffs.

Malone RS 1988-1996: 28/11/3 59% TS
Malone PO 1988-1996: 28/12/3 54% TS

Stockton RS 1988-1996: 16/3/13 62% TS
Stockton PO 1988-1996: 15/3/12 56% TS

They lose 5% and 6% respectively in TS %.

We can look at the first three rounds of the WC too in 97' and 98'.

Malone 97' in the season: 27/10/5 60% TS
Malone 97' in the WC PO: 27/12/3 51% TS

Malone 98' in the season: 27/10/4 60% TS
Malone 98' in the WC PO: 27/11/3 53% TS

So Malone is -9% and -7%.

Stockton 97' in the season: 14/3/11 66% TS
Stockton 97' in the WC PO: 17/4/10 63% TS

Stockton 98' in the season: 12/3/9 63% TS
Stockton 98' in the WC PO: 12/3/7 58% TS

Stockton is -3% and the usual -5%.

In the finals it got even worse:

97' RS efficiency for Malone: 55.0% eFG, 60.0% TS
97' finals efficiency for Malone: 44.3% eFG, 48.5% TS

-11%.

98' RS efficiency for Malone: 53.1% eFG, 59.7% TS
98' finals efficiency for Malone: 50.4%, 55.3%

-5%.

97' RS efficiency for Stockton: 59.8% eFG, 65.6% TS
97' Finals efficiency for Stockton: 54.8% eFG, 61.3% TS

-5%.

98' RS efficiency for Stockton: 56.7% eFG, 62.8% TS
98' Finals efficiency for Stockton: 51.0% eFG, 53.9% TS

Yet again, -5%. :oldlol:

Malone's 98' decline is worse because his RS numbers are deflated by Stockton missing the first 18 games. Without Stockton he shot 52.3%; with Stockton 53.2%.



That sure seems to be about me. :lol

You responded to my comment where I told TheCorporation to stop following me around (his obsession is getting weird). So that wasn't aimed at you. lol

[Phoenix]

I told TheCorporation to stop following me around (his obsession is getting weird).

You've arrived when the alts start following you around.

[TheCorporation]

You've arrived when the alts start following you around.

A 2010 "alt" you say? That's rich coming from a 2018 account, please try again.


You responded to my comment where I told TheCorporation to stop following me around (his obsession is getting weird). So that wasn't aimed at you. lol

Imagine 'following someone around' in my own thread :lol

All I'm doing is roasting your false hero. My bad

[TheCorporation]

In the 1998 Finals the Utah Jazz #2 option was the amazing Jeff Hornacek, who put up an astounding 10.7 ppg as the team's #2 option.

https://i.postimg.cc/sfWPZtWD/jordan2.jpg

We bag on DeMar because he always had to face the GOAT King James in the playoffs but what if DeMar was presented with an extremely favorable circumstance, such as playing against a team who's second option was pouring in a blistering 10.7 ppg? Could he too win a series, much like Jordan was able to?

Can anyone these days just stay focused?

In 1994 the Bulls lost Jordan and snatched up Pete Myers. Assuming the Bulls grabbed DeMar DeRozan instead of Pete Myers, do they beat a team who's #2 option (Jazz) could not score 11 points per game?

[Phoenix]

A 2010 "alt" you say? That's rich coming from a 2018 account, please try again.

Ok fromdowntown/and1/whoeverelse. About a week to go before your next timeout cupcake.

[TheCorporation]

Ok fromdowntown/and1/whoeverelse. About a week to go before your next timeout cupcake.

A 2010 "alt" you say? That's rich coming from a 2018 account, please try again.

[Roundball_Rock]

Stockton never had that scorers mentality. You have to wonder if Malone may have been better served by a healthy Mark Price. Price could run the PnR just fine but was a more deadly scorer than Stockton ever was. I recall those Bulls/Cavs matchups in the early 90s well enough to remember how much of a pain in the ass Mark Price was to deal with.

Yeah nor the skill set to score 20 PPG. In theory I would say he would have been better with Price prime versus prime--but Stockton lasted a lot longer than Price. If they cash in with a chip with Price, then that trumps a few extra years of contending with Stockton.

People think Stockton propped up Malone's numbers but the limited data we have on that suggests that isn't the case. People talk about it like a Nash/Amare type situation.

[Phoenix]

A 2010 "alt" you say? That's rich coming from a 2018 account, please try again.

Ok fromdowntown/and1/whoeverelse. About a week to go before your next timeout cupcake.

[Phoenix]

Yeah nor the skill set to score 20 PPG. In theory I would say he would have been better with Price prime versus prime--but Stockton lasted a lot longer than Price. If they cash in with a chip with Price, then that trumps a few extra years of contending with Stockton.

People think Stockton propped up Malone's numbers but the limited data we have on that suggests that isn't the case. People talk about it like a Nash/Amare type situation.

Yeah it's a longevity vs peak argument. One difference between Stock and Price in a PnR is Price is more than willing to let it rip with an ounce of daylight. He's a decidedly more potent scorer in that situation and an added dimension to that attack. Stockton was way more inclined to pick his shooting spots which doesn't put nearly as much pressure on the defense.


https://youtu.be/Sua9u318wGo

Stockton is obviously the more decorated and greater legacy player, but hypothetically I feel like a healthy Price and Malone in that PnR is a different animal.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah it's a longevity vs peak argument. One difference between Stock and Price in a PnR is Price is more than willing to let it rip with an ounce of daylight. He's a decidedly more potent scorer in that situation and an added dimension to that attack. Stockton was way more inclined to pick his shooting spots which doesn't put nearly as much pressure on the defense.


https://youtu.be/Sua9u318wGo

Stockton is obviously the more decorated and greater legacy player, but hypothetically I feel like a healthy Price and Malone in that PnR is a different animal.

Good stuff. Yeah, the lack of a real scoring threat from Stockton hurt Utah. They got away with it in the RS but when they faced the top teams in the PO it became a problem. With Price they don't have that issue.

With Malone/Price they have a window from 1989-1994 to cash in. Do they? Malone/Stockton had a long window from 1988-2000 but 2 NBA finals, 5 WCF later never got over the hump.

[Phoenix]

With Malone/Price they have a window from 1989-1994 to cash in. Do they? Malone/Stockton had a long window from 1988-2000 but 2 NBA finals, 5 WCF later never got over the hump.

I dont think they overcome the Bulls in that time space but it's possible they get to the finals a couple times. Take 92 for example. Jazz lose in 6 in the WCFs. Particularly I recall Porter killing Stockton in that series. Now I dont know if Porter goes off 'less' against Price but I'm reasonably certain he offers more offensive resistance than Stockton did. Dont know if that switches the outcome of the series or a few others where Mailman needed a more potent 2nd or 3rd scorer. Price had a great transition game which would have served him well in the more open west. It's not out of the realm he's a 20ppg scorer in that setup. In his 89 to 94 window he was 18ppg on a Cavs team that typically had 5-6 double digit scorers (Utah had Mailman, Jeff Malone, Stockton and a revolving door of small forwards as the 4th scorer).

[Roundball_Rock]

92' is interesting. Are the Jazz with Price better than the 92' Blazers? If so, maybe they do get over the hump. The Blazers nearly forced a Game 7. I think push come to shove, given how good MJ and Pippen were in 92' (a lot more athletic than they were in 97' or 98'), the Bulls find a way to win but it would be interesting.

93' and 94' would be their best shots. The 93' Bulls were the weakest of the first threepeat teams and had trouble with the Knicks (down 0-2, then win 4 in a row but Game 5 and Game 6 went down to the wire--5 being the "Charles Smith" game of course) and the Suns were a Paxson three from forcing a Game 7 in Phoenix. Similar to the 92' case, are the Jazz with Malone/Price better than the Suns were? 93' was Price's peak year--the one time he made 1st team all-NBA (or even 1st/2nd).

94' the Bulls were weakened and don't reach the finals. The Jazz got crushed in the WCF but the 94' and 95' Rockets weren't a juggernaut. The Suns took them to 7 in 94' and again in 95', the Knicks took them to 7 and the Jazz took them to 5 in the first round in 95' (first round being 5 games back then if a younger poster is wondering). That is four series where they went to the brink. By 94' they had Hornacek so it would be Malone/Price/Hornacek. That is a lot of shooting ability in the backcourt.

If I had to guess I would say they make the finals in 92', 93' but lose but win in 94'.

[Phoenix]

Entirely possible scenarios. Those western teams ( Phoenix, Utah, Houston, Seattle) were all pretty close and there are a few situations with the Jazz where a better scoring PG likely serves them better than the more conservative scoring from Stockton. They may have needed more of a 20/9 PG ( which I envision Price being in that 92-94 window on Utah) than the 15 and 11 they were getting from Stockton. Especially against the Rockets who relied a good bit on the 3ball around Dream, a backcourt of Hornacek and Price would have provided more effective spacing and overall shooting.

[Roundball_Rock]

Agree--in theory it would work better. We just don't know how the chemistry would work but Price co-existed with Daughtery, Nance, Harper so I don't see why he couldn't co-exist with Malone and J.Malone/Hornacek being the only two other scorers.