How much credit do you give for defensive clutchness?

[Kblaze8855]

Do you even accept that it exists? Odd question perhaps but ive had people here tell me in years past that being clutch is an offensive thing mostly...and clutch defensive plays are more offensive fails. I believe it may have been in a discussion on Kevin Garnett often having game winning/saving defensive plays like:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UnequaledQueasyGuernseycow-size_restricted.gif



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ElderlyClutteredBufeo-size_restricted.gif



Or this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHtqKy8r3Oo



Or the several game saving blocks...at least 2-3 in Minnesota. One I remember on the Nets too.


Defensive plays are never gonna get the same credit...though some are famous. Havlicek steals the ball. Birds steal and pass to DJ....less famous is Bird stealing it from Toney in the 85 ECF. But those arent the plays often given the top billing far as clutchness.

Even straight title deciding plays...



This shot is for the NBA title:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CavernousMeanIbisbill-size_restricted.gif



Starks was on a roll. Hakeem doesnt block it...the Knicks are the 1994 champs.

But it never comes up in talks of biggest plays. Its as important a play as has ever happened on either end. But I think history sees such things more as the guy with the ball failing...not being stopped.

Even guys who do always get their clutchness talked about have their defensive game winners/savers ignored. You have seen footage of 20 Kobe regular season game winners. How many times have you seen this?


Up 3...


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PhysicalLikelyAntelope-size_restricted.gif


Blocks the 3 and goes coast to coast for the 5 point win.



You have seen all the Jordan game winners. Ever see this?


One point game:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AmusedResponsibleGuineapig-size_restricted.gif







This shot in the corner is to send a finals game into OT...Dumars blocks it and saves it:





https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CompleteEuphoricDrafthorse-size_restricted.gif





How many people made a bigger play in their lives?

But you dont see it on many highlights.

[Kblaze8855]

And I do get it.....for a defensive clutch play you are generally either already up or tie....so there is less drama. But even the defensive plays that lead to game winners dont really get the credit for the defender. We blame the guy on offense who screwed up. This is always talked about as Jordan failing not Nick Anderson getting the ball back down 1 with 16 seconds left in the playoffs:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TemptingFlusteredCheetah-size_restricted.gif



The Magic are losing right there.

That what you would call a defensive game winner? Or does the credit go equally to Horace who actually made the game winner?





More recently....

Yes...Lebron had the legendary block. Kyrie made the legendary shot. But I think we all need to give Kevin Love some respect for one of the best defensive possessions in history on an island against the GOAT outside shooter who specializes in 3s off the dribble....straight up one on one shut down:




https://thumbs.gfycat.com/KindheartedAnimatedIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif








Nothing?

He cant get a little respect for that? We giving even half the respect for preserving a win to the defenders? Or putting it all on the scorers who miss?


Its often big stars making the defensive plays too so its not like its the forgotten role player effect. Wade has made HUGE defensive plays. He blocked an alley to tie game 3 of the 06 finals which may well have allowed the Mavs to take a 3-0 lead in OT. He had a crazy steal and 3 point floater for the W vs the Bulls ones that had me pissed off. He had like 2 game winning steals while he was briefly on the Bulls.

Manu has at least 3 defensive game winners I remember. Blocks on Harden and I think Kobe(?). Couple huge steals.

Lebron has game saving blocks beyond the Warriors one....so does Vince Carter. Kobe I showed you one but he has other huge late stops.

I remember once watching Peja totally shut someone down at the end of a game and feeling hyped. Peja of all people....

I love a defensive clutch performance but society almost act like they dont happen. So im asking you....


How much credit you giving the stopper when the offense doesnt come through?

[DMAVS41]

Really good thread / conversation to have.

I think not enough is made of how certain players are capable of ramping up their defense late in games and in certain situations.

Overall defensive effort, consistency, and reliability are important...but sometimes those type of players aren't the guys you'd want guarding another player with the game on the line.

Iguodala, one of the best perimeter defenders of all time imo, not only is consistent and reliable, but also has the defensive clutchness you reference.

A guy like Kobe, at least after the early part of his career...wasn't very consistent, but could really ramp it up at the end of games.

[Kblaze8855]

For the record....my favorite critical stop of all time....game 5 93 ECF.

Maybe the best team defensive sequence in history. Jordan nearly blocks it forcing the pass to Ewing...who is forced to pick up his dribble nearly falling...gets it to Smith who Horace blocks...then disrupts...Jordan strips...and Pippen blocks twice.



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ElasticGrouchyFlatcoatretriever-size_restricted.gif


Game.

I picture Bill Russell somewhere watching like:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WhiteSnoopyIntermediateegret-size_restricted.gif






And Pippen came back at a later date to finish embalming Charles Smith:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScentedFastLacewing-size_restricted.gif









He cant even watch Bulls dynasty DVDs im sure.

[superduper]

A lot of fans don't even think of "clutch" to be a real thing :facepalm

It is definitely a very real thing. As much as I value defense being a defender first IRL, offensive clutchness is so much more harder to have IMO.

Which do you feel is the harder skill of the two: offensive clutchess or defensive clutchness?

[Kblaze8855]

Speaking of Pippen....




https://thumbs.gfycat.com/InfantileFriendlyAmericanpainthorse-size_restricted.gif


You always see Kerr make the shot...but that almost never gets shown.

Thats one of the most significant defensive plays of all time.

I think it in particular suffers from the idea that defensive plays are just offensive mistakes....since only an idiot would try a cross court pass like that with people like Pippen and Jordan on the floor.

But you have to give the player some credit for making the play right? Jazz are looking to send game 6 of the finals into OT. And you steal it?

I feel like that play deserves inclusion in a few more highlight reels.

[Kblaze8855]

A lot of fans don't even think of "clutch" to be a real thing :facepalm

It is definitely a very real thing. As much as I value defense being a defender first IRL, offensive clutchness is so much more harder to have IMO.

Which do you feel is the harder skill of the two: offensive clutchess or defensive clutchness?



Its hard to say. Like...

When Jordan won in 98...

Is it harder to make the shot on Russell or to go steal it from Malone to begin with? The steal to me is one of the most overlooked huge plays of all time to me.

He just takes the ball then comes and drains the shot for the title. Do you have one without the other? Just a beautiful play...


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ReflectingGracefulBittern-size_restricted.gif





Karl clearly didnt even know he was there:


http://pichost.org/images/2019/01/27/084f6969e2680d5b04b7086837f1c422--jordan--michael-jordan.jpg

You can see the hate in Jordans face. He snatched that ball like Deebo with Reds chain.


Both ends were clutch....but I dont know if either required more of it.


Being a clutch scorer might require more....skill. But that gets us into if defense is skill or effort or what....

Some people really dont consider great defenders skillful.

[jongib369]

I picture Bill Russell somewhere watching like:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WhiteSnoopyIntermediateegret-size_restricted.gif

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Came to post this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VlNz0riiPWg), so that comment has me legitimately cracking up. I can just hear his laugh, which if he was court side and I heard that after getting owned defensively it might actually be more demoralizing than getting stopped.

One of my favorite tidbits of knowledge about Bill is how he'd let certain players get a move off to lull them into thinking they can go to it late game, only to then shove it down their esophagus. That's some sneaky, OG clutch shit. Definitely an underappreciated aspect of the game

[sdot_thadon]

Nice topic, I think it just doesn't get the proper credit it deserves because likely for a majority of fans scoring >>>> any other aspect of basketball. So the basket will always stand out more despite the defensive plays being harder to achieve in my opinion. Why? Because the player with the ball in most cases has the upper hand as far as officiating goes. Another thought, defensive clutch plays are pretty ballsy at that because lots of guys are afraid of fouling in those situations and aren't willng to take the gamble with the game on the line.

[Kblaze8855]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Came to post this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VlNz0riiPWg), so that comment has me legitimately cracking up. I can just hear his laugh, which if he was court side and I heard that after getting owned defensively it might actually be more demoralizing than getting stopped.

One of my favorite tidbits of knowledge about Bill is how he'd let certain players get a move off to lull them into thinking they can go to it late game, only to then shove it down their esophagus. That's some sneaky, OG clutch shit. Definitely an underappreciated aspect of the game


Yea a few people have those "It would work in the first half..." stories where hed shut them down late.

WIlt has a few stories doing it backwards. Hed shut someone down then later...allow them to play after his point was made. Did Walt Bellamy and Bob Lanier like that early in their careers. Told Bellamy "Ok...now you can play" coming out for the second half after holding him scoreless in the first.

Youd figure if you can stop people at will you do it when it matters.

[sdot_thadon]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Came to post this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VlNz0riiPWg), so that comment has me legitimately cracking up. I can just hear his laugh, which if he was court side and I heard that after getting owned defensively it might actually be more demoralizing than getting stopped.

One of my favorite tidbits of knowledge about Bill is how he'd let certain players get a move off to lull them into thinking they can go to it late game, only to then shove it down their esophagus. That's some sneaky, OG clutch shit. Definitely an underappreciated aspect of the game
yeah Russ played alot of mindgames within the game like faking being winded before exploding the next play. Being cerebral isn't something said enough about Bill.

[Kblaze8855]

Nice topic, I think it just doesn't get the proper credit it deserves because likely for a majority of fans scoring >>>> any other aspect of basketball. So the basket will always stand out more despite the defensive plays being harder to achieve in my opinion. Why? Because the player with the ball in most cases has the upper hand as far as officiating goes. Another thought, defensive clutch plays are pretty ballsy at that because lots of guys are afraid of fouling in those situations and aren't willng to take the gamble with the game on the line.


Having the balls to even attempt some of these plays is often overlooked. You are right they can end in disaster...like when Manu made arguably the dumbest foul in NBA history:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SerpentineBitterChicken-size_restricted.gif


Up 3....you try to block it and give him the 3 point play to force OT in game 7?

Let him go.....you are still up one. Go to the Ft line on the other end when they foul. But no. Goes to OT and you lose. Won in 05 and 07. They probably should have had the 3peat.


But just like guys on offense he didnt let the big mistake keep him from trying again next time...







https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BabyishCautiousArabianoryx-size_restricted.gif

[ImKobe]

Kobe's block on Sabonis saved the Lakers from losing in 6 against Portland in 2000. The most underrated play in Lakers' franchise history.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5T1b9o8Js4

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe's block on Sabonis saved the Lakers from losing in 6 against Portland in 2000. The most underrated play in Lakers' franchise history.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5T1b9o8Js4


You could argue its the biggest single play of his career. I dont know if I would...but you could argue it. Some of his other late playoff plays were series his team lost(04 finals for example). The rest of that series doesnt go the same if that changes but....Its still huge. No doubt bigger than the game winner(s) vs the Suns which everyone knows about.

Its one of like 30 plays I sat aside for this. There are SO many title altering defensive plays and nobody gives a shit.

[ImKobe]

Agreed. Jordan most likely doesn't have his signature moment if he doesn't steal the ball from Malone. Most people wouldn't point out the steal. Lebron's block was great, but there was 1:51 left with the game tied and the layup was contested anyway, but how many great defensive plays do we remember that happen in the last 24-30 seconds of the game?

[Xiao Yao You]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdowo6y7VJk

this is one that Gobert had that sealed the game

[jongib369]

Yea a few people have those "It would work in the first half..." stories where hed shut them down late.

WIlt has a few stories doing it backwards. Hed shut someone down then later...allow them to play after his point was made. Did Walt Bellamy and Bob Lanier like that early in their careers. Told Bellamy "Ok...now you can play" coming out for the second half after holding him scoreless in the first.

Youd figure if you can stop people at will you do it when it matters.
Yeah you'd think that would be the case...Maybe his mindset was "Since I held him to only be this productive w.e he does after won't matter as much. Now I've got him demoralized for the rest of the game, and I'll save energy for when it matters at the very end". But even so I'd prefer it to be the other way around, despite w.e clutch performance a Lazurus essay might reveal. Is my memory failing me or did you say years ago you read that Wilt could have obliterated some of the old 50s centers, but chose not to so he wouldn't embarrass them?

[superduper]

Some people really dont consider great defenders skillful.

Which I absolutely disagree with.

Defense requires more effort and less skill per se, than offense, but you still need to be incredibly skillful in defensive mechanics and IQ to be able to play it well and have an impact. The thought that good defenders are just meathead athletic effort players is just incorrect. You need to have a very high understanding of angles/positioning and how/when to use what in which way. There's a lot of advanced IQ that goes in to it along with the high effort required.

[Kblaze8855]

He mentioned in A View From Above that he went easy on a lot of centers who gave the idea that they were big no skill stiffs some credibility. Hed let them dribble a little. Let them get off shots. He hated for other centers to look bad because people would laugh at all of them.

He was quite insecure about it. He had a game with like 12 steals and got asked why he didnt always do it. I dont know what he said at the time...but in that book he said he could always steal the ball from a bigman...but he didnt want to.

[Kblaze8855]

Which I absolutely disagree with.

Defense requires more effort and less skill per se, than offense, but you still need to be incredibly skillful in defensive mechanics and IQ to be able to play it well and have an impact. The thought that good defenders are just meathead effort players is just incorrect.


I think as usual...players know better. Kobe is in such awe talking about Pippen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOoWZNp0AlA



You can tell he respects not only the effort but the skill and preparation required.

[andgar923]

I always select KG in my all time teams, IMO the most versatile defender of all time.

A player that can truly guard all 5 positions and do so effectively more than anyone ever.

Hate to sound like an MJ nerd, but MJ has had tons of game winning defensive plays that get overlooked and have been forgotten about. Not only did he directly stop a play, he often disrupted the offensive schemes.

[sammichoffate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDB80cu1pmA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpPF62KV7Fs&t=6m15s

[PeroAntic]

Offensive clutch > defensive clutch.

Offensive clutch means focus and skill.

Defensive clutch simply means more effort, which you should put throughout the game anyway theoretically.

Now, defensive clutch is impressive if you carried the team on offense all game, and then you come up with a game winning defensive play. Example, Derrick Rose in his 50 point game against Utah when he had the game saving block on Exum's three pointer.

[sammichoffate]

Offensive clutch > defensive clutch.

Offensive clutch means focus and skill.

Defensive clutch simply means more effort, which you should put throughout the game anyway theoretically.

Now, defensive clutch is impressive if you carried the team on offense all game, and then you come up with a game winning defensive play. Example, Derrick Rose in his 50 point game against Utah when he had the game saving block on Exum's three pointer.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RQljcjRIHk
Probably the GOAT First Round Game

[theballerFKA Ace]

Kobe's block on Sabonis saved the Lakers from losing in 6 against Portland in 2000. The most underrated play in Lakers' franchise history.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5T1b9o8Js4

:applause:

Came in to post this. Blocking a 7'3 players game winning shot. It was game 3 though, not game 6

[baudkarma]

I think we're seeing some of the reason that clutch defensive plays are underappreciated. First of all, the incorrect perception that defense is mainly about hustle and desire, and there's not much skill involved. Secondly, that a great defensive play is more about the offense making a mistake than the defense rising to the occasion. And lastly, the suspicion that the defender must have committed a foul, and the officials didn't blow the whistle.

[superduper]

Offensive clutch > defensive clutch.

Offensive clutch means focus and skill.

Defensive clutch simply means more effort, which you should put throughout the game anyway theoretically.

Now, defensive clutch is impressive if you carried the team on offense all game, and then you come up with a game winning defensive play. Example, Derrick Rose in his 50 point game against Utah when he had the game saving block on Exum's three pointer.

Not even remotely close.

Elite defense requires a high level of IQ on both defensive mechanics and positioning/angles.

[BigShotBob]

The play that always comes to mind to me was when the Bulls played against the Knicks on Christmas in 94' and Pippen blocked two jumpshots in OT to end the game. I think that play encapsulates his career as a player. He had limitless stamina. He played with the same level of intensity from the beginning of the game to the end of the game.

[Kblaze8855]

The play that always comes to mind to me was when the Bulls played against the Knicks on Christmas in 94' and Pippen blocked two jumpshots in OT to end the game. I think that play encapsulates his career as a player. He had limitless stamina. He played with the same level of intensity from the beginning of the game to the end of the game.


Im sure Charles Smith sees Pippen in his nightmares





https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GoldenJampackedBlesbok-size_restricted.gif

[tpols]

Having the balls to even attempt some of these plays is often overlooked. You are right they can end in disaster...like when Manu made arguably the dumbest foul in NBA history:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SerpentineBitterChicken-size_restricted.gif


Up 3....you try to block it and give him the 3 point play to force OT in game 7?

Let him go.....you are still up one. Go to the Ft line on the other end when they foul. But no. Goes to OT and you lose. Won in 05 and 07. They probably should have had the 3peat.


But just like guys on offense he didnt let the big mistake keep him from trying again next time...







https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BabyishCautiousArabianoryx-size_restricted.gif


you cant compare harden to dirk :lol

[PeroAntic]

Not even remotely close.

Elite defense requires a high level of IQ on both defensive mechanics and positioning/angles.
If you have that, it means you can play elite defense all game and not just in the clutch. So the difference is simply effort. Someone who has poor IQ on defensive mechanics cant be a good clutch defender. However someone who is a good clutch defender can be a poor defender for the rest of it due to poor effort.

Rose is a great example of that. Hes usually sleepwalking on defense, but when the game is on the line, he goes on to clamp the likes of Luka Doncic.

[Young X]

3 pages and no mention of Dwyane Wade. I'm disappointed, ISH.

[MrFonzworth]

Game 3 of the Finals. Down 3. James goes for the tie...

https://youtu.be/8AgMGWZcA-8

[Kblaze8855]

3 pages and no mention of Dwyane Wade. I'm disappointed, ISH.


Most spectacular was the steal and 3 point floater to beat the Bulls in 09....but his biggest was probably game 3 in 06. When Dirk missed the FT and the Mavs had a lob to Howard to send it to OT. Wade blocked the lob pass.

Howard gets that to go the Mavs might win the 06 title. They were up 2 games to 0 already.

[aj1987]

3 pages and no mention of Dwyane Wade. I'm disappointed, ISH.
I was literally scrolling through the thread looking for a mention of D-Wade's name. :applause: :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

Jrue and Giannis the last couple playoffs justify bringing this back up to me.

They(Jrue especially) straight took playoff games away.

[Bronbron23]

Jrue and Giannis the last couple playoffs justify bringing this back up to me.

They(Jrue especially) straight took playoff games away.

It definitely deserves alot of credit as does other aspects of being clutch.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Jrue is a risk taker on defense like Ginobili. And they usually succeed.