Religious war thread.

[fiddy]

Continuation from here

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:g5Q4X0Sj6PAJ:www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D425537+&cd=1&hl=en

https://www.jpost.com/International/Florida-recognizes-Jerusalem-as-Israels-undivided-capital-579312
Slowly but surely getting there

[kennethgriffen]

level 4 dawkins agnosticism is the only sane belief system.

http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1/EEQi-4u5a_oFIkUd3wz3ug49632/GW481H390

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

level 4 dawkins agnosticism is the only sane belief system.

http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1/EEQi-4u5a_oFIkUd3wz3ug49632/GW481H390

Do you even know the basics of the other faiths?

[Patrick Chewing]

We coming for you n*ggas. We coming for that azz.


https://i.imgur.com/z5ZAk7Z.gif

[kennethgriffen]

Do you even know the basics of the other faiths?


yes.. people are scared of death so they invent a reality where they live forever and choose religions based on the geography/culture they grow up in. then choose to ignore/pass off most of the idiotic messages their religion preaches by inventing loop holes around them. and in the end only truly believing in heaven/hell/god and whatever prophet was sent messages telepathically or spiritually from god himself.

its all entirely possible but highly improbable. i choose to believe in only what i can see. i can't see the afterlife so i can't believe in it. but i leave the possibility open that it exists. what i wont do is join a cult just to sleep easy at night or keep from being outcast.

perhaps if i were muslim i would have a different point of view. fear of being honor killed is definitely more of a threat than an invisible man. i also wouldnt mind showing up to church and believing in a religion that makes women my slave in marriage


so i can see why muslims are so dedicated.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

yes.. people are scared of death so they invent a reality where they live forever and choose religions based on the geography/culture they grow up in. then choose to ignore/pass off most of the idiotic messages their religion preaches by inventing loop holes around them. and in the end only truly believing in heaven/hell/god and whatever prophet was sent messages telepathically or spiritually from god himself.

its all entirely possible but highly improbable. i choose to believe in only what i can see. i can't see the afterlife so i can't believe in it. but i leave the possibility open that it exists. what i wont do is join a cult just to sleep easy at night or keep from being outcast.

perhaps if i were muslim i would have a different point of view. fear of being honor killed is definitely more of a threat than an invisible man. i also wouldnt mind showing up to church and believing in a religion that makes women my slave in marriage


so i can see why muslims are so dedicated.

Okay. So you don't know what the basic beliefs of the religions are.


You can feel free to refrain from calling level 4 dawkins agnosticism the only sane way now.

[kennethgriffen]

Okay. So you don't know what the basic beliefs of the religions are.


You can feel free to refrain from calling level 4 dawkins agnosticism the only sane way now.


name a single murder in the name of level 4 agnosticism

[Prometheus]

That entire Dawkins Scale only pertains to one specific interpretation of what is meant by the word "God".

Instead of "Do you believe in God?"

We should be asking "What is your perception of God?"
or "How do you define God?"

And in either case, also "Does your perception/definition of God play a major role in your life?"

A standard atheist in the west will basically be aware of his/her rejection of a false, simplistic notion of the monotheistic God/Allah/Yahweh.

There are many other ways to define a relationship between Self and Cosmos... which is the ultimate role of "God" in the lives of humans.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

The following post is intended to be read by TheMan and Patrick Chewing... both of Spanish origin who attend Church and previously displayed bloodthirsty posts on killing Muslims in the last religious thread.

I ask you--do you guys really want to add oppression on top of your histories oppression
. Are you serious about being saved ?

[QUOTE]
On January 2, 1492, the Catholic royal powerhouse Queen Isabel of Castile and King Ferdinand of Aragon finally conquered Granada, the last Muslim stronghold of Spain, ending the 700 years of Moorish rule in the Iberian Peninsula. After decades of war between the Catholic monarchs and Boabdil, the last Sultan of Spain, Boabdil was sent into exile and was granted an enclave in the Alpujarra Mountains. Within a year, Boabdil buried his wife, Morayma, and his youngest son Yusuf. Broken and dejected, he finally left the Spanish peninsula and spent the rest of his days in Morocco until his death, 40 years later. Boabdil

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

[QUOTE]

When Granada finally fell into the hands of the Christians little by little Castile began to revoke the more tolerant policies towards Muslims and Jews. Archbishop Cisneros (the famous Spanish inquisitor) ordered mass conversions of both Muslims and Jews. He ordered the burning tens of thousands of valued Arabic manuscripts on science, technology, astrology, agriculture, in fact, a vast amount of valuable knowledge written by Islamic scholars was destroyed. Only books on medicine claim to have survived the mass destruction of Islamic-based knowledge. The repressive measures led to revolts that ended in many Muslims being forced to choose between conversion, exile, or execution. To stop any future uprisings by the Muslims in Spain, Isabel also decided to put more resources into the Spanish Inquisition to suppress any further threats. By 1502 the Catholic monarchs had made the practice of Islam illegal in Spain.

The fall of Al-Andalus is seen as one of the most tragic events in Islamic history. At the height of the Moorish Empire, the Iberian Peninsula had a population of over 5 million Muslims. The Moors created an advanced civilization based on faith knowledge, tolerance, technology, scientific discoveries, and creativity. The capital of Muslim Spain

[kennethgriffen]

That entire Dawkins Scale only pertains to one specific interpretation of what is meant by the word "God".

Instead of "Do you believe in God?"

We should be asking "What is your perception of God?"
or "How do you define God?"

And in either case, also "Does your perception/definition of God play a major role in your life?"

A standard atheist in the west will basically be aware of his/her rejection of a false, simplistic notion of the monotheistic God/Allah/Yahweh.

There are many other ways to define a relationship between Self and Cosmos... which is the ultimate role of "God" in the lives of humans.


i don't have a perception of god. thats a form of blind faith

i can't define god. it may or may not exists. and it may or may not be anything. it could be white bearded wizard in the heavens. or it could be a kid with a science experiment in a tiny dish beside his bed. or many other countless possibilities

the possibility of a god existing plays absolutely no role in my life choices other than avoiding people who believe in god to an extremely dangerous level


atheism is a form of blind faith


theres no need to define your relationship to something you know nothing about and have only guessed or heard from someone else whos proof is one book of many throughout the world that all have a different story.


religion was invented to scare people into following the rule of law. it was also invented to give answers to questions that couldn't be scientifically proven yet. and theres still questions that cannot be answered

[Prometheus]

griff sometimes I'm not sure how to help you

you're actually quite sharp and perceptive

yet it is as if you are looking at the world through a narrow tunnel...

Agnosticism is at least preferable to staunch atheism as well as any subscription to any organized religion

So you're doing fine, I guess...

But a life with no spirituality would be very dull

idk. I'm not helping right now. carry on

[kennethgriffen]

griff sometimes I'm not sure how to help you

you're actually quite sharp and perceptive

yet it is as if you are looking at the world through a narrow tunnel...

Agnosticism is at least preferable to staunch atheism as well as any subscription to any organized religion

So you're doing fine, I guess...

But a life with no spirituality would be very dull

idk. I'm not helping right now. carry on



its actually quite the opposite


religion is tunnel vision while science/the unknown/learning is when your eyes are truly open


i learn something new about the universe every day



even just watching a joe rogan podcast and hearing new ideas/new things about the planet/space and history is more infinitely expanding of the mind than knowing every word of the bible or quran front to back


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wieRZoJSVtw

[Nanners]

griff sometimes I'm not sure how to help you

you're actually quite sharp and perceptive

yet it is as if you are looking at the world through a narrow tunnel...

Agnosticism is at least preferable to staunch atheism as well as any subscription to any organized religion

So you're doing fine, I guess...

But a life with no spirituality would be very dull

idk. I'm not helping right now. carry on

young griff is right on this one.

organized religion is the narrow tunnel, agnosticism is a wide open field full of thousands of different wildflowers.

[pauk]

The following post is intended to be read by TheMan and Patrick Chewing... both of Spanish origin who attend Church and previously displayed bloodthirsty posts on killing Muslims in the last religious thread.

I ask you--do you guys really want to add oppression on top of your histories oppression
. Are you serious about being saved ?

They aint even of Spanish Origin, think i saw them say they were of Mexican or Cuban ancestry or something like that, so their story is even darker..... only Spaniards are of Spanish Origin, the rest are Aboriginal Inhabitants / Native South Americans (Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, Andeans, Mapuche, Quechea, Aymara and so on and so on) who speak Spanish or Portuguese (Brazil)......

They were forced to change their language, names & religion/ideology.... BY people of actual Spanish Origin...


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HIwJSiTVLGg/maxresdefault.jpg

https://www.socialmatter.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/apocalypto-boat.jpg



The only Native Americans who had the balls to not bow down to the white man & not get dominated/enslaved like that are "Indians"... and they got essentially extinct as a price...

[Prometheus]

young griff is right on this one.

organized religion is the narrow tunnel, agnosticism is a wide open field full of thousands of different wildflowers.

It seems as though both of you failed to comprehend what I said.

I definitely believe that, if restricted to the following options:

1. Staunch atheism
2. Full agnosticism (100% non-committal)
3. Monotheistic faith subscription

Agnosticism is the only rational choice.

"Religion" and atheism are similarly blind in their insistence.


So...


we clearly must begin with agnosticism as an approach.

But this life is rich with spiritual experience... and to maintain a lack of framework in which to interpret spiritual experiences - to stay in a state of "it could be anything" is to miss out on anything beyond the most basic insights.

Agnosticism is like primordial goo for good spiritual ideas. It is the necessary springboard for intelligent life. But it's still just goo.

[Nanners]

It seems as though both of you failed to comprehend what I said.

I definitely believe that, if restricted to the following options:

1. Staunch atheism
2. Full agnosticism (100% non-committal)
3. Monotheistic faith subscription

Agnosticism is the only rational choice.

"Religion" and atheism are similarly blind in their insistence.


So...


we clearly must begin with agnosticism as an approach.

But this life is rich with spiritual experience... and to maintain a lack of framework in which to interpret spiritual experiences - to stay in a state of "it could be anything" is to miss out on anything beyond the most basic insights.

Agnosticism is like primordial goo for good spiritual ideas. It is the necessary springboard for intelligent life. But it's still just goo.

fair enough

but if primordial goo is the springboard for intelligent life then how do you explain this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrL56-TZhQ0

[kennethgriffen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTv4mtoYmd8

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

That entire Dawkins Scale only pertains to one specific interpretation of what is meant by the word "God".

Instead of "Do you believe in God?"

We should be asking "What is your perception of God?"
or "How do you define God?"

And in either case, also "Does your perception/definition of God play a major role in your life?"

A standard atheist in the west will basically be aware of his/her rejection of a false, simplistic notion of the monotheistic God/Allah/Yahweh.

There are many other ways to define a relationship between Self and Cosmos... which is the ultimate role of "God" in the lives of humans.

That is correct on many levels, Prometheus.

Kennethgriffin used the term "invisible man" so I just stopped responding to him---there's no point. Others say "man in the sky." That's not what God is.

Others reject the specifically Christian doctrine---which is what us Muslims and Jews reject as well--as we consider the Trinity corrupted blasphemy.

For the people talking about open-mindedness and science and all that---well before we even dwell into that, we have to ask ourselves a certain question...

and that question one should ask themselves, "Who is God?"

And make an intellectual inquiry to find the answers.

ANother question could be---," HOw do I connect with Him?"

[kennethgriffen]

That is correct on many levels, Prometheus.

Kennethgriffin used the term "invisible man" so I just stopped responding to him---there's no point. Others say "man in the sky." That's not what God is.

Others reject the specifically Christian doctrine---which is what us Muslims and Jews reject as well--as we consider the Trinity corrupted blasphemy.

Yes, excellent constructive point in your post Promie---for starters one should ask themselves, "Who is God?"

And make an intellectual inquiry to find the answers.


i didn't say thats what god was either. i said i dunno what it is or even if a god exists. theres no point in giving it any thought whatsoever.

but how can you definitively say thats not what god is. how would you have any clue whatsoever

[Nanners]

For the people talking about open-mindedness and science and all that---well before we even dwell into that, we have to ask ourselves a certain question...

and that question one should ask themselves, "Who is God?"

And make an intellectual inquiry to find the answers.

ANother question could be---," HOw do I connect with Him?"

Open-mindedness must come before spirituality imo. True spirituality should always come from within, and asking questions like "who/what is god" and "how do i connect with him" without a fully open mind will probably result in following someone elses version of spirituality without ever discovering your own.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

young griff is right on this one.

organized religion is the narrow tunnel, agnosticism is a wide open field full of thousands of different wildflowers.

That's a very broad, inaccurate, and ultimately ineffective assertion.

If your goal was to Know God and Worship God as best as possible--- you're going to have to put limits on things and you're going to have to find a clear criterion for right and wrong. You know that discipline and structure breeds the best of the best in life.--- unless we're talking musicians and creative types.

There's a reason why Islam and Christianity and Judaism endorse--
Fasting is a SHIELD against those traps of life. and RAISES your consciousness.
Prayer keeps you CONNECTED and PROTECTS you from getting lost or relinquishing to base desires.
Charity keeps you PURE from Greed or covetousness.

That PURIFIES your heart to PURSUE MORE KNOWLEDGE and learn more about God Almighty.

IN CONTRAST--- living an agnostic life without religious rules i.e. Diving into salvia and tripping, listening to all kinds of music, worshipping idols, eating whatever you want, living however you want, having a bohemian type lifestyle, and so on MESSES with your HEART. And people follow what's in their heart.

Basically, the guy following organized religion and staying on the straight and narrow is going to reap more spiritual fruit than the latter.




If you look at the biographies of Muhammad (PBUH) or Jesus (PBUH) or any Prophets (PBUH) these are people who
a) PRAYED REGULARLY
a) never loved money
b) never chased women
c) didn't have hedonistic lifestyles
d) had a pure character to begin with
e) meditated long period of time
f) renounced the world
g) were known as supremely trustworthy and infallible character
h) made sacrifice upon sacrifice upon sacrifice
i) had utmost sincerity
j) encountered trouble upon trouble upon trouble upon hardship yet remained grateful and patient
k) were met with hostility for their message
l) were offered positions and privileges but turned them down to stay faithful to God

m) spent nights in deep prayer and contemplation
n) wept profusely for the affairs of their community
o) observed silence for long bouts
p) lived in the wilderness
q) were not the kind to go around judging people

r) were pure hearted

s) actually FOUGHT against the religious powers and social orders of their times

and so much more

They didn't spend time looking up Joe Rogan podcasts :oldlol:
They were out there SUBMITTING to God's WILL.

Not only that, both Christianity and Islam clearly mention a "STRAIGHT, NARROW PATH."

Do agnostics have protective measures from going astray?
Do agnostics have a clear cut definition of who God is and God isn't?
Do agnostics know a proper way to worship God?
Do agnostics recognize that right and wrong comes because things are good and bad because God said they were--in Scripture?
Do agnostics have a strong comprehension of the Holy Scriptures?

We can go on and on---but if your goal is to grow spiritually, learn more about God, and attain salvation---I can't at all recommend agnosticism.

You got to strive. Strive hard for that knowledge and faith.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

i didn't say thats what god was either. i said i dunno what it is or even if a god exists. theres no point in giving it any thought whatsoever.

but how can you definitively say thats not what god is. how would you have any clue whatsoever


That's an EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT question, KENNETH.

Thank YOU!

God described Himself in the Qu'ran.

112:4 and 42:11 both contain an ayat which explains (and I paraphrase this in English) that God is Unique. meaning God is DISSIMILAR to any of His Creation. This is further reinforced in many Aqeedah books (Aqeedah means creed).

Another ayat which describes God is 2:255.

Thus, no resemblance to any creation. Human beings are creation. Therefore, God is UNLIKE human being.

Moreover, while reading the Book you will come across the Beautiful, Divine Names (Asmaa Al Husna)---in which you can learn about God.

There's a reason why 1.8 billion people read that particular book every single day, 5 times a day, for 1,450+ years--


In it are answers to the questions you've been asking.

But you guys have to make the effort...

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Open-mindedness must come before spirituality imo. True spirituality should always come from within, and asking questions like "who/what is god" and "how do i connect with him" without a fully open mind will probably result in following someone elses version of spirituality without ever discovering your own.

Oh, so you are saying "open-mindedness" must come before spirituality. True.

Of course, being able to open your heart and accept the Truth is a precursor to attaining knowledge. It's interesting you bring up open-mindedness---because in the Qu'ran it says that one of the characteristics of the disbelievers is that their "heart is sealed"--in other words they DO NOT want to hear the Truth. Their senses are closed off and averse to it. Naudhubillah min dhalik!

Another example of the evils of ignorance and close-mindedness is the people in the city who engaged in idolatry---and when Messengers came to invite them to worshipping God alone--they retaliated violently--like Christians have against Galileo!

Another example of ignorant and close-minded warned against in the Qu'ran is in regards to people who clung stubbornly onto whatever their forefathers worshipped (i.e. Abraham's father) despite having overwhelming evidence that the gods they worshipped (i.e. things they made out of stone) HAD NO POWER to PROTECT THEMSELVES.

But there is also such a thing as having a "mind that is so open that one's brains will spill out" Which is one of the reasons God gave us logic/reason!

So why on Earth would someone believe that God came in person as a man from the womb of a woman and then prayed to Himself and then failed to protect himself against a bunch of Jews and sacrificed himself on a cross to atone for mankind's sins? Naudhubillah min dhalik. Does that make sense?

The part I disagree with is "following" someone else's version of spirituality instead of your own?

A path is a path--no matter who walks it. The question is which path is the straight path

[coin24]

We get it Jefferson, you blindly believe every word of the Quran, and if anyone questions the blatant idiocy of it, you twist it to fit the muzzy agenda:cheers:

You're no different to those "worshippers" of Scientology or heavens gate:lol

[Nanners]

That's a very broad, inaccurate, and ultimately ineffective assertion.

its not an assertion, its a metaphor.


If your goal was to Know God and Worship God as best as possible--- you're going to have to put limits on things and you're going to have to find a clear criterion for right and wrong. You know that discipline and structure breeds the best of the best in life.--- unless we're talking musicians and creative types.

Why? Who are you to tell others how to know god? How can you claim to have any more knowledge of god than the average human? Because you read a book? Because you live your life according to a certain set of rules that were handed to you?



There's a reason why Islam and Christianity and Judaism endorse--
Fasting is a SHIELD against those traps of life. and RAISES your consciousness.
Prayer keeps you CONNECTED and PROTECTS you from getting lost or relinquishing to base desires.
Charity keeps you PURE from Greed or covetousness.

You dont need to buy into any organized religion to reap the benefits of fasting. You dont need to buy into any organized religion in order to pray. You dont need to buy into any organized religion to be charitable.


IN CONTRAST--- living an agnostic life without religious rules i.e. Diving into salvia and tripping, listening to all kinds of music, worshipping idols, eating whatever you want, living however you want, having a bohemian type lifestyle, and so on MESSES with your HEART. And people follow what's in their heart.

This makes no sense. Being agnostic doesnt mean living life without any religious rules, it means you discover and define your rules for yourself, rather than allowing someone else to define your rules for you. I dont worship any idols, I certainly dont eat whatever I want, and I dont live some bohemian type lifestyle... but I live my life the way that I do precisely because I follow whats in my heart.


Basically, the guy following organized religion and staying on the straight and narrow is going to reap more spiritual fruit than the latter.

prove it


If you look at the biographies of Muhammad (PBUH) or Jesus (PBUH) or any Prophets (PBUH) these are people who
a) PRAYED REGULARLY
a) never loved money
b) never chased women
c) didn't have hedonistic lifestyles
d) had a pure character to begin with
e) meditated long period of time
f) renounced the world
g) were known as supremely trustworthy and infallible character
h) made sacrifice upon sacrifice upon sacrifice
i) had utmost sincerity
j) encountered trouble upon trouble upon trouble upon hardship yet remained grateful and patient
k) were met with hostility for their message
l) were offered positions and privileges but turned them down to stay faithful to God

m) spent nights in deep prayer and contemplation
n) wept profusely for the affairs of their community
o) observed silence for long bouts
p) lived in the wilderness
q) were not the kind to go around judging people

r) were pure hearted

s) actually FOUGHT against the religious powers and social orders of their times

and so much more

They didn't spend time looking up Joe Rogan podcasts :oldlol:
They were out there SUBMITTING to God's WILL.

Not only that, both Christianity and Islam clearly mention a "STRAIGHT, NARROW PATH."

First of all, the Rogan video I linked was an obvious joke. Jesus and Muhammed didnt have a sense of humor?

Its interesting that you are citing the lives of Jesus and Muhammed here, considering they were both men who couldnt fit into the version of organized religion they were born into, and both looked inward for their own truth and ultimately developed their own versions of spirtuality.

Anyway, have you considered that its entirely possible for a person to be agnostic and still follow every single one of the rules you mention above? There is nothing about those rules that is exclusive to the followers of christianity or islam.



Do agnostics have protective measures from going astray?

friends and family? philosophy and critical thinking? common sense?


Do agnostics have a clear cut definition of who God is and God isn't?

The whole point of agnosticism is acknowledging that god is not something that can be defined, as well as the fact that what is god for me might not be god for you or anybody else


Do agnostics know a proper way to worship God?

who decides which versions of worship are "proper"? how can you claim that god wants to be worshipped in the first place?


Do agnostics recognize that right and wrong comes because things are good and bad because God said they were--in Scripture?

agnostics definitely recognize right and wrong... but scripture has nothing to do with it.


Do agnostics have a strong comprehension of the Holy Scriptures?

why would they?


We can go on and on---but if your goal is to grow spiritually, learn more about God, and attain salvation---I can't at all recommend agnosticism.

Thats nice. I do recommend agnosticism, I think you in particular could use some. The way you conceptualize god is so rigid and generic, and I hope that someday you open your eyes to the fact that the universe is much more mysterious than your old book would have you believe.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Why? Who are you to tell others how to know god?

I only invite you to read the Qu'ran.


Why are you accusing me of the "way you conceptualize God is so rigid and generic"

All I have stated thus far in this thread is that He is dissimilar to Creation.


As for the rest of the post---considering oneself "agnostic" or putting labels on people and such and such is so irrelevant, so fruitless, so insignificant a topic to debate.

What matters much more is the actual steps into moving towards God Almighty. So what steps will you take Nanners? (rhetorical)

[Nanners]

Why are you accusing me of the "way you conceptualize God is so rigid and generic"

Because you say things like

"the guy following organized religion and staying on the straight and narrow is going to reap more spiritual fruit than the latter."

"Not only that, both Christianity and Islam clearly mention a "STRAIGHT, NARROW PATH.""

"if your goal is to grow spiritually, learn more about God, and attain salvation---I can't at all recommend agnosticism."


All I have stated thus far in this thread is that He is dissimilar to Creation.

You have said a little bit more than that buddy :oldlol:

[Nanners]

So what steps will you take Nanners? (rhetorical)

i'll continue to look inward for the answers to unanswerable questions and continue to live life by my own truths

[Prometheus]

J$ I admire your dedication

I also believe you are correct about a lot of things

But you are terrifyingly off the mark in other ways

I do virtually all of my ISH business on my phone, but this thread is going to warrant a real keyboard for a few.

I'll check back in later. Stay classy everyone

[kennethgriffen]

That's an EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT question, KENNETH.

Thank YOU!

God described Himself in the Qu'ran.

112:4 and 42:11 both contain an ayat which explains (and I paraphrase this in English) that God is Unique. meaning God is DISSIMILAR to any of His Creation. This is further reinforced in many Aqeedah books (Aqeedah means creed).

Another ayat which describes God is 2:255.

Thus, no resemblance to any creation. Human beings are creation. Therefore, God is UNLIKE human being.

Moreover, while reading the Book you will come across the Beautiful, Divine Names (Asmaa Al Husna)---in which you can learn about God.

There's a reason why 1.8 billion people read that particular book every single day, 5 times a day, for 1,450+ years--


In it are answers to the questions you've been asking.

But you guys have to make the effort...

your IQ isn't very high is it. you dont even have the common sense to realize agnosticism doesn't allow me to accept the quran as anything but a single interpretation of god and the origin of the universe out of thousands known to man. i have to give them all an equal possibility of being true or else i would be a total lunatic

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

We get it Jefferson, you blindly believe every word of the Quran, and if anyone questions the blatant idiocy of it, you twist it to fit the muzzy agenda:cheers:

You're no different to those "worshippers" of Scientology or heavens gate:lol

One of the characteristics of kuffar is that they
a) delude themselves into thinking themselves smart and think faithful people foolish
and
b) have no proper sense of judgment--hence why we see that you have no intelligence to discern between Truth and falsehood.

No sane person would ever compare Scientology to an Abrahamic faith. Only a complete moron without even the slightest understanding of history.

[Prometheus]

Yeah no matter how deep your issues are with Islam... a comparison with Scientology is wrong.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Why? Who are you to tell others how to know god?

Does not matter who I am. Matters what advice is being given.


Anybody of any walk of life can simply ask God for guidance. Actually, if you read the Qu'ran you would notice that the kaffirs like yourself had similar sentiments when they were reminded --- that they wondered "why Angels were not being sent instead of a man."

[QUOTE[
How can you claim to have any more knowledge of god than the average human? Because you read a book?

You've previously showed disrespect to Holy Scripture---referring to them as "fairy tales"---which is the exact reaction the Qu'ran said people of your ilk would say in the 25th chapter.

You also mocked Prophets (PBUH) who sacrificed their lives for a Holy Cause. If you don't have the basic level of reverence to appreciate sacred things--well all I can say, Nanners is that's your problem.

Reading increases one's knowledge. The Qu'ran is probably the best book to learn about God--as it remains unadulterated since it's revelation One Thousand Four Hundred and Thirty Nine Years Ago.

The Qu'ran also mentions that The Injeel, the Torah, and the Zabur (The Jewish and Christian books) were also Authentic Scriptures--but they have been altered by men historically.



Because you live your life according to a certain set of rules that were handed to you?

Only idiotic kuffar would reduce something as wholesome as religion--that has an inner spiritual dimension to it, as well as much happenings in the heart, as well as a spirit behind it (so to speak) and Is a holistic way of being as-- "a set of rules." Actually, I take that back--considering how Christians degenerated a whole heavenly system of living into going to Church on Sundays--I see your aversion to it.




You dont need to buy into any organized religion to reap the benefits of fasting. You dont need to buy into any organized religion in order to pray. You dont need to buy into any organized religion to be charitable.

You completely missed the point. The point is most agnostics IN REAL LIFE are averse to organized religion BECAUSE of the strict rules of observing God's Commandments and Prohibitions--- and perhaps due to identity politics and emotionally previous bad experiences--maybe other reasons.---. That is why that was posted.



This makes no sense. Being agnostic doesnt mean living life without any religious rules, it means you discover and define your rules for yourself, rather than allowing someone else to define your rules for you. I dont worship any idols,

BLATANT FALSEHOOD, Nanners. You claim you don't worship idols YET U DO NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND what idol means.

Idol means anything aside from God. That includes your own EGO.

CLEARLY you put your whims and desires above God.

The fact that you criticized the burqah/abaya/hijab which women wear in obedience to God (they may not like to wear it but they choose to worship God and make the requisite sacrifices) is evidence against you that you prefer whatever dress code made by whatever "god" you worship over the real God.

That "god" being western society or whatever "your heart feels."

You're also a FOOL if you think there's no discovery or growth in organized religion which are, among other things, guidelines to be followed where spiritual insight grows and develops over a period of time--through an active connection with God Almighty.



I certainly dont eat whatever I want, and I dont live some bohemian type lifestyle... but I live my life the way that I do precisely because I follow whats in my heart.

As said before, chasing your own "whims and desires."

Your heart is subject to be flawed and have different desires---at any state; in one moment it could want a certain woman, at another moment riches, at a another moment it could want creative expression, at another moment it could want peace. It changes over and over and over again and IT IS INFLUENCED BY WHAT YOU SEE, HEAR, FEEL.

While you criticize organized religion, you forget that the rules are there TO KEEP THE HEART CLEAN so that it can LOVE GOD MORE THAN ANYTHING.

I'd suggest that you read "Purification of the Heart" by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf--but knowing you, Nanners, being the character you are--- I don't expect anything.



Its interesting that you are citing the lives of Jesus and Muhammed here, considering they were both men who couldnt fit into the version of organized religion they were born into, and both looked inward for their own truth and ultimately developed their own versions of spirtuality.

ANOTHER LIE from you NANNERS. But you are right in regards to Muhammad (PBUH) despising the predominant idolatry of his time.

YESHUA/ISA observed Jewish law (didn't eat pork, was circumcised) and they retreated and looked ABOVE--not "within". A key difference from Abrahamic religions and Dharmic religions/pantheism because they consider that the origin is God--and not just "higher self" or "within me" or "in my heart" etc.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

friends and family? philosophy and critical thinking? common sense?

Qu'ran clearly states that
a) Most people are not on right guidance--they merely guess
b) Most people are ungrateful, wrongdoers, evil-doers, arrogant, oppressors
c) Guidance comes from God only


Philosophy and critical thinking are so subject to distortion and injustice--that I don't even need to bring up any examples. Look around you at the world today.


Talking about "following what's in my heart." Please. Where's that going to lead to? Pain, resentment and bitterness as a teenager following their heart to chase that girl. Regrets as an adult following their heart to seek out their own passions.



The whole point of agnosticism is acknowledging that god is not something that can be defined, as well as the fact that what is god for me might not be god for you or anybody else

Okay, let's switch gears.

Who created the heavens and the earth and all within it?
To whom does everything around us belong to?
Who is the One who answers prayers?

That's the God of Abraham. That's the God that deserves to be worshipped.




who decides which versions of worship are "proper"? how can you claim that god wants to be worshipped in the first place?

God decides.
And He sent Prophets (PBUH) to teach us.

But then again, you Nanners think you are too smart and advanced for this--so you go on with your guessing games.



agnostics definitely recognize right and wrong... but scripture has nothing to do with it.

So you admit that agnostics are merely guessing and making up human-derived rules that are not rooted in Truth.

Okay, well you and I have no further discussion. Since we don't even agree on the fundamentals of life why are you and I talking?

Agnosticism is insufficient, unacceptable, guesswork, incomplete, and essentially false.

So you go your way "in looking inwards and living BY MY OWN TRUTHS"

By the way, here's another thing, Nanners. You don't OWN ANYTHING- and certainly not "any truths"

Whether your ego wants to admit this or not--the body you have, the house that you have, the woman that you have, the wealth you have--they are not even yours.

You ain't keeping them forever. It belongs to someone else? Can you guess who?



Thats nice. I do recommend agnosticism, I think you in particular could use some. The way you conceptualize god is so rigid and generic, and I hope that someday you open your eyes to the fact that the universe is much more mysterious than your old book would have you believe.

I don't give a damn what you and your ilk recommend, Nanners. I probably thought like you did when I was a teenager.

You don't have the faintest idea of how much I or other Muslims study other faiths and other ideas. You don't have the faintest idea of what "iman" means and why doubt and guessing and following what's in someone's heart can lead to disastrous consequences down the road.
You don't have the faintest idea of how people struggled to acquire knowledge. You don't have the faintest idea of how lying could lead to severe consequences and how men were killed in the past because of their beliefs. You don't have the faintest idea of what constitutes respect. You don't have the faintest idea of what's idolatry.
You dont' have the faintest idea how I think of God. You don't have the faintest idea of what's in the Qu'ran or how vast the knowledge with in it contains.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Because you say things like

"the guy following organized religion and staying on the straight and narrow is going to reap more spiritual fruit than the latter."

"Not only that, both Christianity and Islam clearly mention a "STRAIGHT, NARROW PATH.""

"if your goal is to grow spiritually, learn more about God, and attain salvation---I can't at all recommend agnosticism."


Okay, let me rephrase that. There's a certain OPTIMAL way to live in observing the Commandments and abstaining from the Prohibitions that is going to maximize one's connection with their Creator. Every serious Jew and serious Muslim goes through this, finishes THESE basics, DEFEATS THEIR OWN EGO/NAFS (right now at this moment EVERYONE on ISH myself included is subject to being led astray by their own desires instead of God's will), and continues their intellectual/spiritual pursuits until death.


That says little to NOTHING about the Creator Himself. That's a different VAST HUGE SUBJECT.





You have said a little bit more than that buddy :oldlol:

You said my knowledge of God is "rigid and generic."

In regards to God Almighty, I have stated that He is dissimilar to His creation.

That leaves room for infinite, enormous possibilities.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

your IQ isn't very high is it. you dont even have the common sense to realize agnosticism doesn't allow me to accept the quran as anything but a single interpretation of god and the origin of the universe out of thousands known to man. i have to give them all an equal possibility of being true or else i would be a total lunatic

Okay.

What's the truest perspective on the Creator and Origin of Universe?

[TheMan]

They aint even of Spanish Origin, think i saw them say they were of Mexican or Cuban ancestry or something like that, so their story is even darker..... only Spaniards are of Spanish Origin, the rest are Aboriginal Inhabitants / Native South Americans (Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, Andeans, Mapuche, Quechea, Aymara and so on and so on) who speak Spanish or Portuguese (Brazil)......

They were forced to change their language, names & religion/ideology.... BY people of actual Spanish Origin...


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HIwJSiTVLGg/maxresdefault.jpg

https://www.socialmatter.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/apocalypto-boat.jpg



The only Native Americans who had the balls to not bow down to the white man & not get dominated/enslaved like that are "Indians"... and they got essentially extinct as a price...
You're way off on this muzzy.

Most people in Latin America are mixed, with European, Native American and African being the most prominent bloodlines. In Mexico its basically the first two I mentioned...

I can't speak for Pat but I'm a mutt, I have recent Spanish ancestors in both of my parents lineage. The vast majority of Mexicans are mixed, Mexico wouldn't exist without the Spanish, they gave us our language, religion, bloodline and culture. None of my recent Spanish ancestors raped anyone either. I'm proud of my background, both my NA and European blood make me who I am. My people aren't the same without both components.

[TheMan]

Consider the damage.
Spain, the Iberian peninsula in fact, has always been Catholic.

The invaders brought Islam and they were rightfully expelled. How would you feel if a Catholic army invaded Saudi Arabia and imposed Christianity? Wouldn't you feel that they have the right to expel the invaders? La madre patria, Espa

[Nanners]

Qu'ran clearly states that


blah blah blah

In case it wasnt already clear, I dont give a single shit about what your nonsense book of fairy tales says.


a) Most people are not on right guidance--they merely guess
b) Most people are ungrateful, wrongdoers, evil-doers, arrogant, oppressors
c) Guidance comes from God only

Absolute nonsense. If you really think the only thing keeping people decent is some magic book of divine rules, then you are probably a piece of shit person.


Philosophy and critical thinking are so subject to distortion and injustice--that I don't even need to bring up any examples. Look around you at the world today.

Funny that the parts of the world with the most extreme levels of injustice tend to be muslim states. Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, is arguably the most oppressive and unjust place on this planet.


Talking about "following what's in my heart." Please. Where's that going to lead to? Pain, resentment and bitterness as a teenager following their heart to chase that girl. Regrets as an adult following their heart to seek out their own passions.

Do you really hold such a pessimistic view of your own feelings and intuitions that you think your internal compass can only guide you to negative places? I would probably feel bad for you if you werent such a condescending douchebag.

Again, just because you think that you would be bitter or evil without your divine rule book does not make that true for everyone else.



Okay, let's switch gears.

Who created the heavens and the earth and all within it?
To whom does everything around us belong to?
Who is the One who answers prayers?

That's the God of Abraham. That's the God that deserves to be worshipped.

The core of agnosticism is acknowledging that you dont have the answers to these kinds of questions. The fact that I dont have these answers does nothing to increase the validity of your answers.


So you admit that agnostics are merely guessing and making up human-derived rules that are not rooted in Truth.

Okay, well you and I have no further discussion. Since we don't even agree on the fundamentals of life why are you and I talking?

Agnosticism is insufficient, unacceptable, guesswork, incomplete, and essentially false.

So you go your way "in looking inwards and living BY MY OWN TRUTHS"

By the way, here's another thing, Nanners. You don't OWN ANYTHING- and certainly not "any truths"

Whether your ego wants to admit this or not--the body you have, the house that you have, the woman that you have, the wealth you have--they are not even yours.

You ain't keeping them forever. It belongs to someone else? Can you guess who?

Of course I admit that agnostics are guessing, everyone is just guessing...the difference between agnostics and religious fundamentalists like you is that agnostics openly acknowledge the fact that they are guessing, while fundamentalists have deluded themselves into thinking their beliefs arent guesses.


I don't give a damn what you and your ilk recommend, Nanners. I probably thought like you did when I was a teenager.

Thats funny, I thought like you when I was a teenager too. Back then I thought the world was black and white and I had it all figured out, I thought every question had an answer. As I got older and experienced more of life, I began to notice all the grey areas, and all the holes in the assumptions I once held.


You don't have the faintest idea of how much I or other Muslims study other faiths and other ideas. You don't have the faintest idea of what "iman" means and why doubt and guessing and following what's in someone's heart can lead to disastrous consequences down the road.
You don't have the faintest idea of how people struggled to acquire knowledge. You don't have the faintest idea of how lying could lead to severe consequences and how men were killed in the past because of their beliefs. You don't have the faintest idea of what constitutes respect. You don't have the faintest idea of what's idolatry.
You dont' have the faintest idea how I think of God. You don't have the faintest idea of what's in the Qu'ran or how vast the knowledge with in it contains.

:oldlol:

The level of condescension in this paragraph is unreal.

You are correct, I dont have the faintest idea (again thats the point of agnosticism)... where you are wrong is in your assumption that you have anything more than the faintest idea because you read a book of fairy tales.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

You know what. I'll be a little gentler this time--pardon me for my previous harshness, very wrong approach of me. Sorry.

You want to get close to God?

All you got to do is put your hands in the air and ask of Him.

http://islamicartdb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/dua-hands.jpg

Over and over again. You will build a strong connection with your Creator this way.

But it takes humility to do so. You also got to ask for forgiveness. Also got to sincerely realize that man is needy and that God is All-Generous.

And do this over and over and over again---for all your needs. Ask for knowledge, faith, light, peace, security, good manners, food, water, shelter---all your needs. Ask for the Truth. Ask to know Him. Ask Him to show you the way.

And set aside time to remember Him.


That is much, much more productive than these exchanges.


If you, Nanners and kenneth and prometheus can implement this habit---I guarantee you will benefit from ways beyond your imagination.

[fiddy]

https://medium.com/@imrankhan_20814/us-increases-military-presence-in-syria-despite-trumps-withdrawal-announcement-9961f9ea15ed