Kobe and others make the case that goat scoring guards need the least help

[3ball]

Bird, Duncan, Lebron, Durant, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, and Shaq all needed 2 HOF teammates for all their rings and/or a top 20 all-time player as sidekick

Whereas Kobe only had one HOF teammate, who might be top 100 all-time (Gasol). So no 2 HOF's or top 20 sidekick like the aforementioned frontcourt players.. i.e. it's a fact to say that Kobe needed less help to win multiple FMVP's than Kareem or Shaq.

The other 2 goat scoring guards are similar - Harden recently took the warriors' 7 games with past-prime Paul as his sidekick.. And of course Jordan 3-peated with one HOF and a top 30-100 teammate (depending on who you ask).

This seems like a lot less help than the goat frontcourt players needed... :confusedshrug:.. So I guess the goat scoring guards > goat frontcourt players?

i.e if harden could maintain his current mj/kobe dominance in the playoffs, and we gave him say, capella and cp3 back - that cast would be right there with Kobe/MJ's casts as the least help needed

[Ben Simmons 25]

You need the most help.

Who trolls this hard for 5 years straight?

[Manny98]

Horace Grant and Rodman > Bosh and Love

Pippen and Gasol > Kyrie and past prime Wade

[3ball]

You need the most help.

Who trolls this hard for 5 years straight?
Trolling?.. :biggums:



Bird, Duncan, Lebron, Durant, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, and Shaq all needed 2 HOF teammates for all their rings and/or a top 20 all-time player as sidekick

Whereas Kobe only had one HOF teammate, who might be top 100 all-time (Gasol). So no 2 HOF's or top 20 sidekick like the aforementioned frontcourt players.. i.e. it's a fact to say that Kobe needed less help to win multiple FMVP's than Kareem or Shaq.


:confusedshrug: .. I think it's pretty solid

[PickernRoller]

A known truth.

[G0ATbe]

I recall you saying Kobe was a 6'6 iverson chucker and the most carried all time great ever. You said this 2 weeks ago. Now he needs the least help?:lol

[34-24 Footwork]

Who trolls this hard for 5 years straight?

You, and the other weirdos apparently.

[3ball]

I recall you saying Kobe was a 6'6 iverson chucker and the most carried all time great ever. You said this 2 weeks ago. Now he needs the least help?:lol
some extreme stances must sometimes be taken with Kobe Stans to get the point across that he's < MJ

But tbh, frontcourt players need 2 HOF teammates to win multiple rings, and Kobe/MJ only needed 1 HOF... The only exceptions are Shaq (who had kobe), hakeem (who won without the bulls), and one of kareem's 6 rings (71' with Oscar).. Otherwise, frontcourt players need 2 HOF's to win multiple rings

So yes, it appears the goat scoring guards - MJ/Kobe - needed less help to win multiple rings than any frontcourt player

[SpaceJam]

What HoF players Bron have in 2016?

[bigkingsfan]

Pippen only needed one hof.

[r15mohd]

some extreme stances must sometimes be taken with Kobe Stans to get the point across that he's < MJ

But tbh, frontcourt players need 2 HOF teammates to win multiple rings, and Kobe/MJ only needed 1 HOF... The only exceptions are Shaq (who had kobe), hakeem (who won without the bulls), and one of kareem's 6 rings (71' with Oscar).. Otherwise, frontcourt players need 2 HOF's to win multiple rings

So yes, it appears the goat scoring guards - MJ/Kobe - needed less help to win multiple rings than any frontcourt player


so basically you spew bs when needed to fit your agenda...i would have never imagined this from you 3bum :confusedshrug:

[jstern]

I recall you saying Kobe was a 6'6 iverson chucker and the most carried all time great ever. You said this 2 weeks ago. Now he needs the least help?:lol

He's always been supportive of Kobe and his abilities, going many years back.

[G0ATbe]

He's always been supportive of Kobe and his abilities, going many years back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHXU-Wi4v5c


now I gotta go in on the REAL kobe, a 6'6" iverson chucker, a carried knock-off.. maybe the most carried great player ever.) .

he's still probably top 20 after durant 3-peats this year and has 1 more fmvp than kobe.. :yaohappy:.. but you shouldn't be so proud of an iverson chucker like kobe anyway..
https://i.gifer.com/MRi5.gif

[PickernRoller]

3ball has made an allegiance with the Kobe fam - he and many other Jordan fam members. He knows he better toe the line in the agreement.

Kobe fam on top of LeTard groupies on his tail will be a nightmare for him.

Past is the past however. Agreement has held and both fams have been enjoying the best relations in years. An example of great diplomacy and strategic partnership.

[jstern]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHXU-Wi4v5c


https://i.gifer.com/MRi5.gif

Like I said, he's always been supportive of Kobe, one post is not going to change all the positive Kobe posts going years back. He's just not a Kobe stan, or in love with him.

From Google, 2016 result (I'm not going to dig anymore.)


If we drafted Kobe and Lebron to 100 randomly-selected supporting casts, I believe Kobe would win more championships because his scoring versatility allows him to fit in with any teammates or system - this means his game can facilitate great teamwork and a high brand of basketball, regardless of teammates or system.

Lebron might win more games in the lower-competition regular season - but in the playoffs when a high-level teamwork and brand of basketball is required to win it all, Kobe's teams will generally have far greater capacity to achieve this level of basketball than Lebron's teams.. Lebron's teams are restricted by his rigid style of play where he takes over the point guard position and monopolizes the action.

Otoh, look what happened when Pau joined Kobe - INSTANT Finals and championships... INSTANT... Lebron couldn't do that with Pau - he'd crater Pau's stats like he did Love and Bosh and that team would underachieve.. Can you imagine Pau as a spot-up shooter?... That tells you everything you need to know for why Lebron is only 3/7.. btw, Lebron's ball-dominance would preclude him from having success in the triangle or a Spurs-like offense, since they don't use or allow ball-domination.
.

I think he even has Kobe top 7 or so, going way back, while most Kobe haters have him 12th.

[SpaceJam]

3ball only props up Kobe over LeBron because he knows he isn’t a threat to his daddy MJ. Don’t be fooled

[DidUSaySomethin]

Bird, Duncan, Lebron, Durant, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, and Shaq all needed 2 HOF teammates for all their rings and/or a top 20 all-time player as sidekick

Whereas Kobe only had one HOF teammate, who might be top 100 all-time (Gasol). So no 2 HOF's or top 20 sidekick like the aforementioned frontcourt players.. i.e. it's a fact to say that Kobe needed less help to win multiple FMVP's than Kareem or Shaq.

The other 2 goat scoring guards are similar - Harden recently took the warriors' 7 games with past-prime Paul as his sidekick.. And of course Jordan 3-peated with one HOF and a top 30-100 teammate (depending on who you ask).

This seems like a lot less help than the goat frontcourt players needed... :confusedshrug:.. So I guess the goat scoring guards > goat frontcourt players?

i.e if harden could maintain his current mj/kobe dominance in the playoffs, and we gave him say, capella and cp3 back - that cast would be right there with Kobe/MJ's casts as the least help needed

parker and manu are future HOFers because they played w/ duncan. besides, those "goat" scoring guards didn't have much success in the playoffs w/o a top 5 all time coach

[knicksman]

its like business vs working a regular day job. Business is tough but once you get past through it, it becomes easy. Just like its harder at the start for kobe/jordan to build a contender but once you have a team, it becomes easy. While lebron is better at the start but the ceiling is low.

[3ball]

its like business vs working a regular day job. Business is tough but once you get past through it, it becomes easy. Just like its harder at the start for kobe/jordan to build a contender but once you have a team, it becomes easy. While lebron is better at the start but the ceiling is low.
You're right

97' MJ couldn't be 20-14 with this team

No way

That's ****ing amazing. Nobody could do that.. only lebron

:facepalm .. Don't get blinded by the hype.

50 guys or more would be 20-14 with this team, let alone 97' MJ, who was 24-11 without pippen and had the 1 seed before pip came back from injury

And why does lebron get a pass for his 9 seeds and bad teams during his first couple seasons, but jordan's 8 seeds are knocked as him not carrying a team?

Both players achieved 50-win, 3 seeds in their 3rd healthy season (88' and 06').. but mj received 7-point, rookie pippen that year, while lebron received the 22/5/5 steals champ and 1st team defender hughes, along with the future COY.. So jordan's 35/6/6/dpoy deserves more credit for achieving 50 wins than Lebron's 31/7/7 in 06'.

In their 4th healthy season, Lebron achieved the 07' Finals, but was swept by the champs with his 2 seed, while jordan's 6 seed took the champs 6 games in 89' ecf... In the mj/lbj comparison, only MJ carried a low seed to a deep playoff run, or 6 games with the champs..

In their 5th season, MJ got a 3 seed again and in subsequent seasons went undefeated (6/6) as the 1 or 2 seed... Otoh, lebron proceeded to lose 6 times as the 1 or 2 seed, including record losses.

There's no comparison - MJ carried teams more and would be killing with this Laker team.. and moreso at 34 years old, when he was aware of equal-opportunity strategy and wouldn't need the trials and tribulations of youth to get the most out of teammates (i.e. we'd all be great getting to go back and do it over, let alone the goat)
.

[Kblaze8855]

Going to the HOF because of 1990-98 does mean 03 David Robinson was HOF level help. Nor was Tony Parker who often got pulled in the 4th for Speedy Claxton or 7ppg Manu off the bench. Thats the kind of bullshit people use when they act like Jordan had a HOF teammate in Gervin. Going to the HOF doesnt make you HOF level every second of your career.

[3ball]

Going to the HOF because of 1990-98 does mean 03 David Robinson was HOF level help. Nor was Tony Parker who often got pulled in the 4th for Speedy Claxton or 7ppg Manu off the bench. Thats the kind of bullshit people use when they act like Jordan had a HOF teammate in Gervin. Going to the HOF doesnt make you HOF level every second of your career.
Gervin didn't play in the 86' PO, whereas DR was Duncan's legit sidekick in the 03' PO.

And rodman wasn't even the starter in the 98' PO, willis reed was banged up in 70', as was pippen frequently with poor play.. they're still HOF's

Again, it's clear that MJ/Kobe needed less help for multiple FMVP's than all frontcourt players in the history of the game.. and I never count hakeem's rings in 94/95 btw..

[3ball]

And given the correlation between PPG and salary or the filling of rosters, it makes sense that the best scorers in history (MJ/Kobe) need the least big name/money players

Hence MJ/Kobe winning with the formula of one HOF and role players, while it's all-star teams for everyone else

[tpols]

it's all about optimization... fisher, artest, odom, pau, even bynum were all playing at their best, simultaneously, while kobe was a 30/5+/5+ producer and closer. A lot of big men a) can't close like their perimeter counterparts and b) dont do anything to make others better (ie see anthony davis and even atg's like kareem) They "get their own" but dont max out their teammates ala a guy like magic who comes in, gets his own, AND maxes out everybody around him.

[r15mohd]

[QUOTE=SpaceJam]3ball only props up Kobe over LeBron because he knows he isn

[Akeem34TheDream]

Gervin didn't play in the 86' PO, whereas DR was Duncan's legit sidekick in the 03' PO.

And rodman wasn't even the starter in the 98' PO, willis reed was banged up in 70', as was pippen frequently with poor play.. they're still HOF's

Again, it's clear that MJ/Kobe needed less help for multiple FMVP's than all frontcourt players in the history of the game.. .. and I never count hakeem's rings in 94/95 btw
Why would anyone argue with this man?

[sdot_thadon]

some extreme stances must sometimes be taken with Kobe Stans to get the point across that he's < MJ


Again, it's clear that MJ/Kobe needed less help for multiple FMVP's than all frontcourt players in the history of the game.. and I never count hakeem's rings in 94/95 btw..

and just like that all dignity/logic/credibility:
http://66.media.tumblr.com/86dd7b997000a3ecd37946de875bf676/tumblr_mrguziroUc1r7ri7zo1_500.gif

what an idiot, you just keep setting the bar lower and lower. If we play let's only count what works in our favor then i can make an argument for Bakley as goat. All those excuses you are making to exclude the other guys illustrate exactly how weak and flawed an argument you are attempting.

[FKAri]

its like business vs working a regular day job. Business is tough but once you get past through it, it becomes easy. Just like its harder at the start for kobe/jordan to build a contender but once you have a team, it becomes easy. While lebron is better at the start but the ceiling is low.
Someone who's clearly never run a business :oldlol: FOH

[Rico2016]

You need the most help.

Who trolls this hard for 5 years straight?

Precisely.

[Rico2016]

Pippen only needed one hof.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Rico2016]

Why would anyone argue with this man?

He just said he didn't even count your boys rings in 94 and 95 :lol :lol

[Rico2016]

[QUOTE=SpaceJam]3ball only props up Kobe over LeBron because he knows he isn

[Rico2016]

its like business vs working a regular day job. Business is tough but once you get past through it, it becomes easy. Just like its harder at the start for kobe/jordan to build a contender but once you have a team, it becomes easy. While lebron is better at the start but the ceiling is low.

Please just because you watched a season of Shark Tank doesn't mean you're qualified to talk anything business related. :facepalm

[3ball]

it's all about optimization.. fisher, artest, odom, pau, even bynum were all playing at their best, simultaneously, while kobe was a 30/5+/5+ producer and closer. A lot of big men a) can't close like their perimeter counterparts and b) dont do anything to make others better (ie see anthony davis and even atg's like kareem) They "get their own" but dont max out their teammates ala a guy like magic who comes in, gets his own, AND maxes out everybody around him.


Optimization or not, MJ/Kobe simply needed a lot less help to win multiple rings than Kareem, Shaq, and any frontcourt player in the history of the game.. it's not even close and it's obvious.

The only exception is hakeem, who's rings were achieved when the best team was out of the league - that's the only way a frontcourt player could win multiple rings with as little help as Kobe/MJ.. :confusedshrug:

[Mr. Jabbar]

kobe > lebron

[FKAri]

Argument invalid because of LeGOAT :oldlol:

[3ball]

its harder at the start for kobe/jordan to build a contender but once you have a team, it becomes easy. While lebron is better at the start but the ceiling is low.



The 03' Cavs were too crappy for 04/05 playoffs even with Lebron's 07' production


05' LBJ:. 27/7/7.. 55.4 ts.. 25.7 PER.. 0.203 ws/48.. 8.3 bpm.. 8.8 vorp.. 9 seed, lottery
07' LBJ:. 27/7/6.. 55.2 ts.. 24.5 PER.. 0.206 ws/48.. 7.4 bpm.. 7.6 vorp.. 2 seed, Finals


So it's false that lebron can carry any team to the playoffs..

those Cavs needed personnel additions and a coaching change to make the 06/07 playoffs with lebron's 27/7/7 approach.. so there's no reason to give lebron a pass for his 9 seeds as if he isn't capable of those teams, while knocking MJ for his 8 seeds.

Furthermore, these Lakers were already a 35-win team, and therefore already twice as good as the 17-win Cavs in 03'.. Playoffs should be automatic for these Lakers with any all-league player, let alone goat candidates, which have previously contended well against champions with weaker casts and even low seeds





Just like its harder at the start for kobe/jordan to build a contender but once you have a team, it becomes easy. While lebron is better at the start but the ceiling is low.



Many current or former stars could be 21-14 with this team, let alone 97' MJ, who was 24-11 without pippen and had the 1 seed before pip came back from injury

And here's their carry jobs, season by season:


First 2 healthy seasons:


- Lebron had 9 seeds... Jordan had 7 and 8 seed


3rd healthy season (88' vs. 06')


- Both players achieved 50-win, 3 seeds

- except mj received a 7-point, rookie pippen that year, while lebron received the 22/5/5 first-team defender hughes, along with a future COY.. so jordan's 35/6/6/dpoy deserves more credit for achieving 50 wins than Lebron's 31/7/7


4th healthy season (89' vs 07')


- Lebron achieved the 07' Finals, but was swept by the champs with his 2 seed, while jordan's 6 seed took the champs 6 games in 89' ecf
- Only MJ career shows a deep playoff run with a low seed, or low seed taking champs 6 gms


5th healthy season and beyond (90-98'' vs 08-18')


- MJ got a 3 seed in 90' and went undefeated (6/6) as the 1 or 2 seed in subsequent seasons, while lebron lost 6 times as the 1 or 2 seed from 08-18', including record losses.


There's no comparison - MJ carried teams more.. he'd be killing with these Lakers, and moreso at 34 years old, when he was aware of equal-opportunity strategy and wouldn't need the trials/tribulations of youth to get the most out of teammates (i.e. we'd all be great getting to go back and do it over, let alone the goat)
.

[tamaraw08]

Bird, Duncan, Lebron, Durant, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, and Shaq all needed 2 HOF teammates for all their rings and/or a top 20 all-time player as sidekick

Whereas Kobe only had one HOF teammate, who might be top 100 all-time (Gasol). So no 2 HOF's or top 20 sidekick like the aforementioned frontcourt players.. i.e. it's a fact to say that Kobe needed less help to win multiple FMVP's than Kareem or Shaq.

The other 2 goat scoring guards are similar - Harden (using Lebron Ball) recently took the warriors' 7 games with past-prime Paul as his sidekick.. And of course Jordan 3-peated with one HOF and a top 30-100 teammate (depending on who you ask).

This seems like a lot less help than the goat frontcourt players needed... :confusedshrug:.. So I guess the goat scoring guards > goat frontcourt players?

i.e if harden (using Lebron-ball)could maintain his current mj/kobe dominance in the playoffs, and we gave him say, capella and cp3 back - that cast would be right there with Kobe/MJ's casts as the least help needed
so you're saying IF Harden could maintain.... so there is a chance they will win?:confusedshrug: and you said in another thread.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461319&page=4

Harden-ball is essentially a lottery team on the championship level, aka 3/9, aka 0.333 lottery win percentage

Harden-ball is simply a loser and nothing compared to the superior brand of ball played by better winners.. harden-ball is and1-ball and will never be an adequate substitute for ball movement, so it will always struggle and suck on the championship level.. 3/9

:wtf:

[SouBeachTalents]

Gervin didn't play in the 86' PO, whereas DR was Duncan's legit sidekick in the 03' PO.

And rodman wasn't even the starter in the 98' PO, willis reed was banged up in 70', as was pippen frequently with poor play.. they're still HOF's

Again, it's clear that MJ/Kobe needed less help for multiple FMVP's than all frontcourt players in the history of the game.. and I never count hakeem's rings in 94/95 btw..
:roll:

[3ball]

so you're saying IF Harden could maintain.... so there is a chance they will win?:confusedshrug: and you said in another thread.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461319&page=4

:wtf:
You're right, harden boosts kobe/mj's case and shouldn't be included with them itt

Not only does he play a shit brand that can't effectively compete on the championship level, but it's obvious that he lacks kobe/mj's scoring versatility (off-ball) to do so

[Kblaze8855]

Gervin didn't play in the 86' PO, whereas DR was Duncan's legit sidekick in the 03' PO.

And rodman wasn't even the starter in the 98' PO, willis reed was banged up in 70', as was pippen frequently with poor play.. they're still HOF's

Again, it's clear that MJ/Kobe needed less help for multiple FMVP's than all frontcourt players in the history of the game.. and I never count hakeem's rings in 94/95 btw..

David Robinson in the last 5 playoff series of his career put up:


11/7

5/4

6/6

10/9

6/7


That isnt David Robinson. Thats a name.

Whatever your point is about Jordan or whoever else....

The 2003 Spurs had one player even close to star level. Forget hall of fame.

They had some people who had the same name as some stars...but only person playing like it. 03 Tony Parker was maybe....prime Bobby Jackson level. Good player...but nothing to make a big deal of.

[3ball]

:roll:
Accept the fact that the only way a frontcourt player could win multiple rings with as little help as Kobe/MJ was to win when the best team was out of the league

MJ/Kobe simply needed a lot less help to win multiple rings than Kareem, Shaq, and any frontcourt player in the history of the game.. it's not even close and it's obvious.

Specifically, they didn't need 2 HOF teammates to win multiple rings like virtually every other frontcourt player in history.. the only exceptions were Shaq (who had Kobe) and Hakeem's "JV Finals" rings

[3ball]

David Robinson in the last 5 playoff series of his career put up:


11/7

5/4

6/6

10/9

6/7


That isnt David Robinson. Thats a name.

Whatever your point is about Jordan or whoever else....

The 2003 Spurs had one player even close to star level. Forget hall of fame.

They had some people who had the same name as some stars...but only person playing like it. 03 Tony Parker was maybe....prime Bobby Jackson level. Good player...but nothing to make a big deal of.
Rodman was 4/8 for the entire 97' playoffs

He was still credited with a HOF presence and impact, albiet probably not as much as 03' DR was..

And I didn't want to address your standard derail attempt because the OP specifically avoids one-offs.. it says MJ/Kobe needed less help than every frontcourt player in history to win multiple rings.. this is clearly true, specifically, they didn't need 2 HOF teammates to win multiple rings like virtually every other frontcourt player in history.. the only exceptions were Shaq (who had Kobe) and Hakeem's "JV Finals" rings

[SouBeachTalents]

Accept the fact that the only way a frontcourt player could win multiple rings with as little help as Kobe/MJ was to win when the best team was out of the league

MJ/Kobe simply needed a lot less help to win multiple rings than Kareem, Shaq, and any frontcourt player in the history of the game.. it's not even close and it's obvious.

Specifically, they didn't need 2 HOF teammates to win multiple rings like virtually every other frontcourt player in history.. the only exceptions were Shaq (who had Kobe) and Hakeem's "JV Finals" rings
It's not Hakeem's fault Jordan lost in the 2nd round to the team he swept in the Finals

[3ball]

It's not Hakeem's fault Jordan lost in the 2nd round to the team he swept in the Finals
Hanging on to Hakeem's JV rings as a last defense isn't a good look and makes my point

The only way a frontcourt player could win multiple rings with less help than mj/kobe was to have them on his team (shaq's rings), or out of the league (Hakeem's rings)

So to recap the facts:

It's simply a testament to their goatness that MJ/Kobe needed less help to win multiple rings than every frontcourt player in history - specifically, they didn't need 2 HOF teammates to win multiple rings like virtually every other frontcourt player in history.. the only exceptions were already mentioned - Shaq (who had Kobe), and Hakeem's "JV Finals" rings (MJ out of league)

[SouBeachTalents]

Hanging on to Hakeem's JV rings as a last defense isn't a good look and makes my point

The only way a frontcourt player could win multiple rings with less help than mj/kobe was to have them on his team (shaq's rings), or out of the league (Hakeem's rings)

So to recap the facts:

It's simply a testament to their goatness that MJ/Kobe needed less help to win multiple rings than every frontcourt player in history - specifically, they didn't need 2 HOF teammates to win multiple rings like virtually every other frontcourt player in history.. the only exceptions were already mentioned - Shaq (who had Kobe), and Hakeem's "JV Finals" rings (MJ out of league)
No, Jordan played in the '95 playoffs, and again, he lost to the team that Hakeem swept in the Finals :lol

And how much of a clown do you have to be to consider a playoff run of

Malone/Stockton
Barkley/KJ
Robinson
Shaq/Penny

to be "JV" :oldlol: Dude literally beat like half the '95 All-NBA team that season in the playoffs. That honestly SHIT's on any run Jordan ever faced in the playoffs

[knicksman]

Someone who's clearly never run a business :oldlol: FOH

why? you think its easier to earn 1 million a day as a regular day worker than a businessman. LOL you just exposed your IQ right there

[knicksman]

Please just because you watched a season of Shark Tank doesn't mean you're qualified to talk anything business related. :facepalm

nah. ive been studying business for a while now.

[3ball]

No, Jordan played in the '95 playoffs, and again, he lost to the team that Hakeem swept in the Finals :lol

And how much of a clown do you have to be to consider a playoff run of

Malone/Stockton
Barkley/KJ
Robinson
Shaq/Penny

to be "JV" :oldlol: That honestly SHIT's on any playoff gauntlet Jordan ever had to go through
If the celtics didn't exist in 86', hakeem wouldn't deserve equal credit that ring either.. nor would the 03' nets or 07' Cavs get full credit for rings if the spurs didn't exist those years

The reality is that for Kobe/MJ to win multiple rings, they needed less help (only 1 HOF teammate) than any frontcourt player in history (who all needed 2 HOF teammates).. And the only exceptions are when a frontcourt player had kobe/mj on his team (shaq's rings), or out of the league (Hakeem's rings)..

You can't make this shit up brah... :pimp:

[3ball]

nah. ive been studying business for a while now.



Here's their carry jobs, season by season:


First 2 healthy seasons:


- Lebron had 9 seeds... Jordan had 7 and 8 seed


3rd healthy season (88' vs. 06')


- Both players achieved 50-win, 3 seeds... MJ with 35/6/6/dpoy and lebron 31/7/7


4th healthy season (89' vs 07')


- Lebron achieved the Finals, but was swept by the champs with his 2 seed, while jordan's 6 seed took the champs 6 games in 89' ecf
- Only MJ's career (not bron's) shows a deep playoff run with a low seed, or low seed taking champs 6 gms, and also never swept with anything but an 8 seed (lebron swept with 2 and 4 seeds)


5th healthy season and beyond (90-98'' vs 08-18')


- MJ went undefeated (6/6) as the 1 or 2 seed in between 90-98', while lebron lost 6 times as the 1 or 2 seed from 08-18', including record losses.


MJ carried teams more.. he'd be killing with these Lakers, and moreso at 34 years old, when he was aware of equal-opportunity strategy and wouldn't need the trials/tribulations of youth to get the most out of teammates (i.e. we'd all be great getting to go back and do it over, let alone the goat)
.

[bigkingsfan]

No, Jordan played in the '95 playoffs, and again, he lost to the team that Hakeem swept in the Finals :lol

And how much of a clown do you have to be to consider a playoff run of

Malone/Stockton
Barkley/KJ
Robinson
Shaq/Penny

to be "JV" :oldlol: Dude literally beat like half the '95 All-NBA team that season in the playoffs. That honestly SHIT's on any run Jordan ever faced in the playoffs
Poor 3ball, has 0 argument :oldlol:

[3ball]

Poor 3ball, has 0 argument :oldlol:
Thread Cliffs:

for Kobe/MJ to win multiple rings, they needed less help (only 1 HOF teammate) than any frontcourt player in history (who all needed 2 HOF teammates).

the only exceptions are when a frontcourt player actually HAD kobe/mj on his team (shaq's rings), or out of the league (Hakeem's rings)..

You can't make this shit up brah... :pimp:


And goat bigs need more help in general than goat wings.. so given all this info, here's new goat rankings:


MJ
Kobe
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Mikan

.

[bigkingsfan]

https://images.solecollector.com/complex/image/upload/m7tdrq1uqt9yxrjdnjne.jpg :roll:

[3ball]

Thread Cliffs:

Kobe/MJ needed less help to win multiple rings (only 1 HOF teammate) than any frontcourt player in history (who all needed 2 HOF teammates to win multiple rings).

the only exceptions are when a frontcourt player actually HAD kobe/mj on his team (shaq's rings), or mj/kobe were out of the league (hakeem's rings)..

You can't make this shit up.


And goat bigs need more help in general than goat wings.. so given all this info, here's new goat rankings:


MJ
Kobe
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Mikan



Thanks to everyone for vetting the final summary above, including bigkingsfan, southbeachtal, kblaze and others.. :cheers:
.

[bigkingsfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b58glke4ZIQ :banana:

[Manny98]

Here's their carry jobs, season by season:


First 2 healthy seasons:


- Lebron had 9 seeds... Jordan had 7 and 8 seed


3rd healthy season (88' vs. 06')


- Both players achieved 50-win, 3 seeds... MJ with 35/6/6/dpoy and lebron 31/7/7


4th healthy season (89' vs 07')


- Lebron achieved the Finals, but was swept by the champs with his 2 seed, while jordan's 6 seed took the champs 6 games in 89' ecf
- Only MJ's career (not bron's) shows a deep playoff run with a low seed, or low seed taking champs 6 gms, and also never swept with anything but an 8 seed (lebron swept with 2 and 4 seeds)


5th healthy season and beyond (90-98'' vs 08-18')


- MJ went undefeated (6/6) as the 1 or 2 seed in between 90-98', while lebron lost 6 times as the 1 or 2 seed from 08-18', including record losses.


MJ carried teams more.. he'd be killing with these Lakers, and moreso at 34 years old, when he was aware of equal-opportunity strategy and wouldn't need the trials/tribulations of youth to get the most out of teammates (i.e. we'd all be great getting to go back and do it over, let alone the goat)
.
Jordan's career record before Pippen 108-148

In 1987, 37/5.2/4.6 with 2.9 steals per game and 1.5 blocks on 56% TS. Incredible, right? Yeah, the team finished under .500, including getting swept by the Celtics. That was Jordan at 23, along with his 3rd consecutive playoff trip.

At 23, LeBron averaged 30/7.9/7.2 with 1.8 steals per game and 1.1 blocks on 56% TS. The difference? The team finished 45-37, and went to Game 7 with the Celtics. The previous year, LeBron dragged a disgusting Cavalier team to a 50-32 record and to the Finals. Jordan at 22? Swept once again.

Jordan's playoff record without Pippen? 1-9

So overall LeBrons first 4 years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jordan s first 4 years and it's not even close

[3ball]

Jordan's career record before Pippen 108-148

In 1987, 37/5.2/4.6 with 2.9 steals per game and 1.5 blocks on 56% TS. Incredible, right? Yeah, the team finished under .500, including getting swept by the Celtics. That was Jordan at 23, along with his 3rd consecutive playoff trip.

At 23, LeBron averaged 30/7.9/7.2 with 1.8 steals per game and 1.1 blocks on 56% TS. The difference? The team finished 45-37, and went to Game 7 with the Celtics. The previous year, LeBron dragged a disgusting Cavalier team to a 50-32 record and to the Finals. Jordan at 22? Swept once again.

Jordan's playoff record without Pippen? 1-9

So overall LeBrons first 4 years >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jordan s first 4 years and it's not even close
In their 2nd healthy seasons (87' vs 05'), MJ got a 42-win 8 seed and lebron a 42-win 9 seed


Basically the same.. :confusedshrug:... :sleeping...

Except MJ didn't have a 2-time all-star center on his team, so he had to average 37 ppg.. :sleeping:

[SpaceJam]

Jordan was scared of Hakeem

[Manny98]

In their 2nd healthy seasons (87' vs 05'), MJ got a 42-win 8 seed and lebron a 42-win 9 seed


Basically the same.. :confusedshrug:... :sleeping
22 year old LeBron = 50 wins + NBA finals
22 year old Jordan = 38 wins + first round exit

23 year old LeBron = 45 wins + taking a 67 win team to 7 games in the ECF
23 year old Jordan = 35 wins + getting swept in the first round

24 year old LeBron = 66 wins + ECF
24 year old Jordan = 40 wins + first round exit

Young Jordan is so inferior to young LeBron its not even funny

[3ball]

Jordan was scared of Hakeem
Only a fool thinks it's coincidence that the rockets won only the 2 years MJ is out

Coincidence.. :rolleyes:

[SouBeachTalents]

Only a fool thinks it's coincidence that the rockets won only the 2 years MJ is out

Coincidence.. :rolleyes:
Only a fool pretends Jordan didn't play in '95

[3ball]

22 year old LeBron = 50 wins + NBA finals
22 year old Jordan = 38 wins + first round exit

23 year old LeBron = 45 wins + taking a 67 win team to 7 games in the ECF
23 year old Jordan = 35 wins + getting swept in the first round

24 year old LeBron = 66 wins + ECF
24 year old Jordan = 40 wins + first round exit

Young Jordan is so inferior to young LeBron its not even funny
Lebron never had low seeds - he only had 1-4 seeds, and mj did much better with his 1-4 seeds.. Infact, MJ did better with his 1-6 seeds than lebron's 1-4

And MJ's 8 seeds > lebron's 9 seeds obviously

That covers it

[3ball]

https://images.solecollector.com/complex/image/upload/m7tdrq1uqt9yxrjdnjne.jpg :roll:
Here's a future trivia question:

Who are the only 2 players to win multiple FMVP's with only 1 HOF teammate, excluding seasons where they were a sidekick or on sabbatical?

:oldlol:

It turns out Kobe/MJ needed less help to win multiple FMVP's (only 1 HOF teammate) than anyone in history (who all needed 2 HOF teammates to win multiple rings as the man).

the only exceptions are when a player actually HAD kobe/mj on his team (shaq's rings), or mj/kobe were out of the league (hakeem's rings)..

You can't make this shit up.

Here's more fun trivia:

who needs more HOF teammates to win multiple rings - MJ and Kobe, or any frontcourt player in history, excluding sidekick years and 2-sport seasons?

[FKAri]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b58glke4ZIQ :banana:
Y'all call this pathetic nigguh the GOAT? What a shit sport basketball must be. :oldlol:

[hiphopanonymous]

Kobe doesn't need to dominate dribbling the ball to be effective.

How many times have we seen a LeBron team turn into him hammering the ball into the floorboards 30 feet out until there's no air in the ball or time on the clock left to do anything in the play.

He has got to improve his off ball ability. It's a shame he's already 35 and still hasn't figured out how to allow his teammates a chance to handle the rock and be effective in areas off the ball. Just think what an awesome screen setter and /or roll man he COULD be on plays like the pick and roll. He's 6-8 260 and he'd rather ask for a screen than set one I just never understood that.

[bigkingsfan]

Here's a future trivia question:

Who are the only 2 players to win multiple FMVP's with only 1 HOF teammate, excluding seasons where they were a sidekick or on sabbatical?

:oldlol:

It turns out Kobe/MJ needed less help to win multiple FMVP's (only 1 HOF teammate) than anyone in history (who all needed 2 HOF teammates to win multiple rings as the man).

the only exceptions are when a player actually HAD kobe/mj on his team (shaq's rings), or mj/kobe were out of the league (hakeem's rings)..

You can't make this shit up.

Here's more fun trivia:

who needs more HOF teammates to win multiple rings - MJ and Kobe, or any frontcourt player in history, excluding sidekick years and 2-sport seasons?
The answer

https://images.solecollector.com/complex/image/upload/m7tdrq1uqt9yxrjdnjne.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

The answer

https://images.solecollector.com/complex/image/upload/m7tdrq1uqt9yxrjdnjne.jpg
https://i.gifer.com/HRHm.gif

[Loco 50]

You need the most help.

Who trolls this hard for 5 years straight?
That dude Euroleague still the kang. :oldlol:

3ball is ole reliable though.

[3ball]

That dude Euroleague still the kang. :oldlol:

3ball is ole reliable though.
MJ and Kobe are the only franchise players in history to win multiple rings with only 1 HOF teammate

The only exceptions are when a franchise player actually HAD kobe/mj on his team (shaq's rings), or mj/kobe were temporarily out of the league (hakeem's rings)..

How is that trolling?.. MJ/Kobe needed the least help of any 2-time winners, hakeem's jv rings excluded

[bigkingsfan]

MJ is the only legend to ever lose to this guy

https://ftks732kpvy18zwzc2s17egw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Nick-Anderson-Free-Throws-Twitter.png

[SouBeachTalents]

MJ and Kobe are the only franchise players in history to win multiple rings with only 1 HOF teammate

The only exceptions are when a franchise player actually HAD kobe/mj on his team (shaq's rings), or mj/kobe were temporarily out of the league (hakeem's rings)..

How is that trolling?.. MJ/Kobe needed the least help of any 2-time winners, hakeem's jv rings excluded
Hakeems b2b FMVP's >>>>> Kobe's by any measure. Level of play, impact, statistical output, quality of opponent etc.

[3ball]

Hakeems b2b FMVP's >>>>> Kobe's by any measure. Level of play, impact, statistical output, quality of opponent etc.
It was a rudimentary style that only worked those 2 years and then solved never to succeed again

Kobe proved to be a lot better than that. Imagine if he had prime Gasol his whole career - how many #1 option rings... 5, 6, 7? He was dedicated and so was pau.. and of course, those are the only stars you need with MJ/kobe.. no 3rd Hof needed for multiple rings like everyone else

[Gus Hemmingway]

SouthBeach and BigKing turning 3balls o-ring into a turnstile :oldlol:


OUCHIE

[SouBeachTalents]

It was a rudimentary style that only worked those 2 years and then solved never to succeed again

Kobe proved to be a lot better than that. Imagine if he had prime Gasol his whole career - how many #1 option rings... 5, 6, 7? He was dedicated and so was pau.. and of course, those are the only stars you need with MJ/kobe.. no 3rd Hof needed for multiple rings like everyone else
You can literally make the same arguments against your points, that Kobe's style only worked those 2 years, then was solved and never succeeded again. And imagine if Hakeem had prime Drexler his whole career, how many rings that would be? He won 2 while only having 33 year old Drexler for 1 of them

[3ball]

You can literally make the same arguments against your points, that Kobe's style only worked those 2 years, then was solved and never succeeded again. And imagine if Hakeem had prime Drexler his whole career, how many rings that would be? He won 2 while only having 33 year old Drexler for 1 of them
Huh?

Kobe's probably the most unpredictable scorer we've ever seen, a far cry from Hakeem's post focus

Kobe's offenses were much more dynamic than Houston's basic post-and-kick - he was the top 10-caliber player required for the triangle to work (it's never won without Kobe or MJ, and their diverse scoring ability) and it worked for basically his whole career, while Hakeem was a flash in the pan, due to luck - MJ's dynasties would've swept him worse than bird's did

[Rico2016]

No, Jordan played in the '95 playoffs, and again, he lost to the team that Hakeem swept in the Finals :lol

And how much of a clown do you have to be to consider a playoff run of

Malone/Stockton
Barkley/KJ
Robinson
Shaq/Penny

to be "JV" :oldlol: Dude literally beat like half the '95 All-NBA team that season in the playoffs. That honestly SHIT's on any run Jordan ever faced in the playoffs

Boom

[SouBeachTalents]

Huh?

Kobe's probably the most unpredictable scorer we've ever seen, a far cry from Hakeem's post focus

Kobe's offenses were much more dynamic than Houston's basic post-and-kick - he was the top 10-caliber player required for the triangle to work (it's never won without Kobe or MJ, and their diverse scoring ability) and it worked for basically his whole career, while Hakeem was a flash in the pan, due to luck - MJ's dynasties would've swept him worse than bird's did
I actually agree with you regarding the effective of the offense each team ran, but that's not what I was arguing. If two teams go b2b, and have a nearly identical run of postseason success over a similar period of time; let's say we compare the '08-'12 Lakers & the '93-'97 Rockets; it's disingenuous to consider one of them legitimate and the other a flash in the pan

[Loco 50]

MJ and Kobe are the only franchise players in history to win multiple rings with only 1 HOF teammate

The only exceptions are when a franchise player actually HAD kobe/mj on his team (shaq's rings), or mj/kobe were temporarily out of the league (hakeem's rings)..

How is that trolling?.. MJ/Kobe needed the least help of any 2-time winners, hakeem's jv rings excluded
Kobe had the best front court in the league every year he won.

Shaq was enough of a wrecking ball that Kobe didn't need another HOF'er to carry him early on and the talent was dispersed evenly on his latter rings. The latter rings Kobe had the best defensive and rebounding front court in the league. His team did all the dirty work and he was allowed to shot jack, just like he preferred.

I can agree with you on the MJ stuff, but Kobe? Nah. Matter of fact I think you disrespect MJ by having Kobe anywhere near the convo with him.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan was scared of Hakeem
nah Hakeem wasn't the Rocket Mj was scared of. It was this guy
https://www.basketusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/vernon-maxwell.jpg

[3ball]

I actually agree with you regarding the effective of the offense each team ran, but that's not what I was arguing. If two teams go b2b, and have a nearly identical run of postseason success over a similar period of time; let's say we compare the '08-'12 Lakers & the '93-'97 Rockets; it's disingenuous to consider one of them legitimate and the other a flash in the pan
Hakeem had his 94' cast help for his entire career, but only won 2 rings

He was a flash in the pan

Kobe won 5 rings, and is less of a flash in the pan.. ur trying to discount his Shaq rings when his Pau rings legitimized those.. Shaq was apparently overkill

Kobe was a champion and contender for like half his career, compared to only a tiny part of Hakeem's career. Hakeem also couldn't win with Ralph Sampson, who was > pau

[34-24 Footwork]

Kobe had the best front court in the league every year he won.

Shaq was enough of a wrecking ball that Kobe didn't need another HOF'er to carry him early on and the talent was dispersed evenly on his latter rings. The latter rings Kobe had the best defensive and rebounding front court in the league. His team did all the dirty work and he was allowed to shot jack, just like he preferred.

I can agree with you on the MJ stuff, but Kobe? Nah. Matter of fact I think you disrespect MJ by having Kobe anywhere near the convo with him.

Lol. There are plenty of players that have had "the best frontcourt in the league" and not win.

And Shaq didn't have any success with Hardaway, Exel or Eddie Jones. Why is that? Lakers only won rings when Kobe was a starter.

But I am impressed. All Kobe needed to replace Shaq was Gasol, an injury plagued Bynum, and Sasha Vujecic :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Hakeem had his 94' cast help for his entire career, but only won 2 rings

He was a flash in the pan

Kobe won 5 rings, and is less of a flash in the pan.. ur trying to discount his Shaq rings when his Pau rings legitimized those.. Shaq was apparently overkill

Kobe was a champion and contender for like half his career, compared to only a tiny part of Hakeem's career. Hakeem also couldn't win with Ralph Sampson, who was > pau
Lmfao at you casually pretending that 2-3 seasons of Sampson and one season of a still elite Drexler is the equivalent of having prime Shaq for 8 years, then acting puzzled as to why one player won more titles and had more seasons as a contender

You can't just give one player a top 10 ATG for nearly a decade and not the other, then pretend they had similar circumstances and opportunities to win championships

[34-24 Footwork]

Southbeach talents going HARD in the paint in a Kobe appreciation tread :lol :lol

What else is new?

[3ball]

nah Hakeem wasn't the Rocket Mj was scared of. It was this guy
https://www.basketusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/vernon-maxwell.jpg

Doesn't look scared to me:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7N_qSFAsP8&t=04m29s

[Uncle Drew]

Dad Killer ducked Hakeem.

[Rico2016]

Dad Killer ducked Hakeem.

:eek:

[3ball]

Dad Killer ducked Hakeem

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7N_qSFAsP8&t=04m29s


The 5:52 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7N_qSFAsP8&t=05m52s) mark is the difference between MJ's game and lebron's:

MJ shreds the defender immediately upon the catch, while masterfully eluding multiple defenders and double teams to finish on a goat 7-footer; and this non-ball-dominant, goat offense fits into a system to yield goat ball movement that goes 6/6 on the championship level

^^ lebron can't do any of that and never has.. show me where he's played on that level - his harden-ball is a joke by comparison and will always struggle on the championship level

[sdot_thadon]

Doesn't look scared to me:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M7N_qSFAsP8&t=04m29s

[QUOTE]

[SpaceJam]

:oldlol:

[QUOTE]

[3ball]

MJ really starting to look funny in the light
Head-to-head career:

Jordan:. 31 on 50%.. 11-6 record
Vernon:. 14 on 42%.. 6-11 record

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Michael+Jordan&player_id1_select=Michael+Jordan&player_id1=jordami01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Vernon+Maxwell&player_id2_select=Vernon+Maxwell&player_id2=maxweve01&idx=players


MJ dominated Vernon like he would any wing player

And you can tell mj talks about hakeem tongue-in-cheek because he says "the big African", etc. lol at picking out that quote and saying, "see, MJ was scared and would've lost"

[Phoenix]

Dad Killer ducked Hakeem.

Really? Or did Hakeem avoid making the finals until MJ left in 94? #mindblown

But seriously, if MJ was 'ducking' Hakeem, then why did he return to the league when Hakeem was defending champion? Strange way to duck someone. :confusedshrug: