I wasnt gonna make this hating ass topic but the basketball gods have insisted.

[Kblaze8855]

I was going through a number of my handles clips from one of the thousands of no longer existing topics and an idea came to me...

Has the NBA essentially become And-1 20 years later?

So I went to watch some of the old and 1 clips. Focused mostly on Skip/Rafer and Hot Sauce.

Im watching Skip clips and I realize...Skips moves are just baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarely worse than what they let you do in the NBA now.

We all laughed about how it wasnt real ball back then. Talked about how they didnt really have handles...just played without rules. Carry. Travel. Push offs. You couldnt hand check them with the annoying ass announcer they had on the show yelling "No holding no holding!" to make sure defense wasnt played. All that shit we agreed made it a joke.A fun distraction maybe. I went and saw them on tour once. Kinda the new globetrotters. But we didnt take it serious. Only the little kids asked why they weren't in the NBA.

We would laugh...tell them "Because that isnt basketball."





This is an 18 year old clip of former head ref Ronnie Nunn showing you why the and 1 style is illegal and what NBA refs looked for:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DistantDismalGander-size_restricted.gif



That was called a carry. And it was. But by todays standards it isnt. The carries....the pushoffs....the double dribbling.


You see where this is going im sure. Its going here:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IdenticalVagueGrassspider-size_restricted.gif



and


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DimImpartialEidolonhelvum-size_restricted.gif



and



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OrangeSelfishAustralianshelduck-size_restricted.gif



I knew you would see it all coming. And I imagined a stream of comments about beating a dead horse and how we didnt really need another "These ****** is travelin!" old man yelling at cloud style complaints. So I decided to drop it and make some other topic. But then something happened to let me know the basketball gods insisted I do this.

I check facebook and what do I see?

14 minutes earlier a friend of mine shared a new video of James Harden...working out with mother****ing Bone Collector from And-1!

The poster child for quasi-legal handles is out here with one of the most flagrantly illegal dribblers from those days. The master of push offs to break ankles. The one who made "No holdin no holdin!" required to do all his moves. Hot sauce was more famous but he left to do his own tour pretty quickly. Bone Collector is the guy you saw a lot of if you watched that show on afternoons on ESPN back in the day. Hes the one who would never let guys defend him...and would carry so blatantly I couldnt even be impressed:





https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HopefulGlitteringKrill-size_restricted.gif



Notice the BRUTAL travel/carry and him then having the nerve to grab the defenders hand to show hes trying to hand check him. He did that to make sure he had room to do his bullshit moves.

Looking back...I see it so clearly.


Bone collector was foreshadowing.

Refs might as well be the shitty announcer keeping people from holding the stars....freedom of movement rules. He could carry and push off at his leisure.

Now we have kids working on Harden moves that are illegal and youtube tips on how to use the off arm like Lebron:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VQYXPDNGU0&t=100s



They call it a "Driving trick!".


So....I click this video...

[Kblaze8855]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImaginativeSerpentineBlackwidowspider-size_restricted.gif



Harden and Bone collector out there exchanging tips and tricks.


Bone still on his bullshit....push offs and not letting the defender play D to embarrass him:




https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SharpWetAssassinbug-size_restricted.gif



Harden is off to the left but you cant see him.


Thinking about it all these modern stars were the right age to have fallen in love with And 1. James Harden was 12 when And-1 had the show on ESPn every afternoon after school. Harden was one of those kids running out to work on the moves im sure. Not surprising hed hook up with Bone Collector to train. The games are coming together now.


Is Skip/Rafer here:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GlassTimelyBedbug-size_restricted.gif






https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SecretLivelyAllosaurus-size_restricted.gif



Really any more egregious than shit they allow now? Hes playing around with it but nothing there is as illegal as:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ShockedAfraidInexpectatumpleco-size_restricted.gif



How much more illegal are Skip and Bones moves than:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WindyMediumAustraliancattledog-size_restricted.gif

[Kblaze8855]

In a world where Harden could do a double step back or behind the back step back threes, Durant can carry about 60% of the time he dribbles, and Lebron can push people out of his way in the lane how much longer till:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ShallowSillyDiscus-size_restricted.gif




is acceptable?


Its exciting. Crowd goes wild.

Does the NBA care about anything else?

Why not give the ref a mic hooked to the PA system to yell "No holding" as some star comes down the court and ISOs?


Are the and one clips in here really any more blatant disregard for the rules of basketball than the NBA ones?

Whats the difference?

And 1 being honest about it just being a show not a fair competition for the defense?

[Ben Simmons 25]

The NBA doesn't care about a quality product with high levels of integrity and high level actual basketball play.

The NBA does care about what most fans want to watch.

Most fans don't want to watch defensive slug fests where the teams are scoring in the 70s and 80s and the perimeter stars are only averaging in the 20s.

Most fans want to watch high scoring, integrity of the game be damned. They don't care. Most fans aren't hoops heads. Most fans are extremely casual and simple minded.

It's that simple, and you know it.

[Kblaze8855]

Im sure it is that simple....but the odd thing is the highest rated games of all time were before all this. Its hard to make an apples to apples comparison with so many more channels and ways to watch games now...but I think Bird/Magic in college is still the highest rated basketball game of any kind by percentage of possible viewers.

So many people wanted to see Jordan play they had to open up football stadiums to get everyone in. Remember that?




http://pichost.org/images/2019/02/01/AP_98032701071-710x355.jpg



Like 65 thousand people at the Georgia dome to see MJ vs the Hawks.


People LOVED the old nba and the old players but they still convinced themselves there was more money in the nonsense they allow now.

Ratings were great when they had defense AND stars in the 90s. They got afraid of a few bad finals ratings when it was boring no international stars Nets/Spurs series and the Pistons making even the loaded Lakers score like 65 points. They couldnt wait it out and let new stars emerge on their own and get popular as they would have.

They had to take action. You know there was a meeting after the Pistons and Nets had that playoff game where the Nets had like 36 points going into the 4th. Just decided that offense would sell...not defense.

[eliteballer]

You really aren't going to post the worst offender?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9MfQKnvEkk

Look at what he does on the spin against Harden.

[eliteballer]

They had to take action. You know there was a meeting after the Pistons and Nets had that playoff game where the Nets had like 36 points going into the 4th. Just decided that offense would sell...not defense.

Let's be honest...that wasn't real basketball either.

What teams like the Pistons and Pacers were doing in 04 was the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Ben Simmons 25]

Let's be honest...that wasn't real basketball either.

What teams like the Pistons and Pacers were doing in 04 was the opposite end of the spectrum.

Yes, it was real basketball. More than today, anyways.

Not every team in the league was holding teams to historic lows.

Every team nowadays is routinely dropping 120+ like it's nothing.

[egokiller]

Some people got to watch a quality product, others are negated to rolling around in their basement all day watching an inferior product. It is what it is. :applause:

[3ball]

The warriors don't actually play that way.. curry gets assisted on 60% of his shots

But many teams beneath the warriors play version of harden-ball

Thats unfortunate, because harden-ball struggles and is a loser on the championship level, 3/9.. loses to superior brands (spurs, mavs, warriors)

Harden-ball is essentially a lottery team on the championship level, aka 3/9, aka 0.333 lottery win percentage

Harden-ball is simply a loser and nothing compared to the superior brand of ball played by better winners.. harden-ball is and1-ball and will never be an adequate substitute for ball movement, so it will always struggle and suck on the championship level.. 3/9

[Kblaze8855]

Let's be honest...that wasn't real basketball either.

What teams like the Pistons and Pacers were doing in 04 was the opposite end of the spectrum.


What about playing tough d and slowing down the game isn’t “real”?

Were the rules being violated? We’re they changed to make their style easier?

I suppose you could argue illegal d being removed.

[eliteballer]

What about playing tough d and slowing down the game isn’t “real”?

Were the rules being violated? We’re they changed to make their style easier?

I suppose you could argue illegal d being removed.

It's not just "tough D" when you're allowed to push and grab guys on a play-by-play basis beyond what is normally acceptable on a basketball court.

At the end of the day it's basketball, not football.

This was almost beyond even what was going on in those Knicks-Heat series.

It wasn't just the Pistons and Heat though, it was a league-wide thing.

Guys shooting 40% becoming the norm etc.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You see where this is going im sure. Its going here:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IdenticalVagueGrassspider-size_restricted.gif


I've ALWAYS felt that this particular hesitation move above - bringing the guard hard to the ball and basically/actually touching it as if you're gonna shoot it - should be called EVERY time. It's impossible to defend. Refs should be calling that as a violation EVERY time it occurs, even on less egregious instances of it than the one above - the refs should just say "hey, we thought you touched the ball with two hands". Get that shit out of the league.

[Kblaze8855]

The pistons were not as physical as you are suggesting. The spurs either Bowen aside. Even teams we considered soft played tougher d than is allowed now...but it wasn’t beating people up.

Nothing about early 2000s ball was beyond what one would expect when playing basketball. Basketball is physical.

The freedom of movement thing is more unusual really.

[eliteballer]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]The pistons were not as physical as you are suggesting. The spurs either Bowen aside. Even teams we considered soft played tougher d than is allowed now...but it wasn

[warriorfan]

https://i.postimg.cc/QtJtKkYs/A307-F241-471-F-4876-9-E1-D-C187-F5-EE07-F0.gif

Now that is real basketball




Jokes aside. I would like teams to be able to play more defense then today. I would rather see a close gritty game than a high scoring one where no one is being touched. The early 2000

[Kblaze8855]

People will still bleed in 2054 when we have 4 pointers and getting back on D is a technical foul.

[warriorfan]

People will still bleed in 2054 when we have 4 pointers and getting back on D is a technical foul.

Future rulebook

Rule 2.27a - Illegal Defense - any player attempting to disrupt a dribble, steal a pass, or cross their half court line, is not allowed.

[andgar923]

In all honesty, I don't mind that players are palming the ball so much, carrying and pushing off.

The issue I have is "fans" claiming that today's players are more advanced then today's and use dribbling as an example. They use Harden as a great offensively skilled player but fail to realize his moves are illegal as f*ck.

Imagine if players back then were given all of the same freedoms that today's players get?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grEIm3NladE

Rarely did he carry the ball. Imagine if he was allowed to get away with palming and carrying like today's players?

[90sgoat]

One of the reasons the NBA allowed this was to have greater control of the outcome of games.

Allow this kind of dribbling and you can decide the games much more easily.

In your skullcollector example, you allow the hand check for one team and take it away for the other. That gives an extreme advantage with the new carry moves, compared to previously where dribbling was not as advantageous, hand check or no handcheck.

This is how the league has fixed it for Lebron against Indiana (twice) and against Golden State (once).

[stalkerforlife]

Some players literally carry almost every single time they dribble.

The league knows die hard basketball aficionados can't stop loving the game, so they disregard their care for real basketball to appease the novice fans for monetary gain.

[Prometheus]

It's all about the Jews using the Blacks to make the Whites hate themselves.

[ralph_i_el]

You really aren't going to post the worst offender?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9MfQKnvEkk

Look at what he does on the spin against Harden.

I think Giannis is the worst just based on his carries.

[Mr. Jabbar]

kobe > lebron

deal with it.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

That is why I find it hilarious when people say things like: Durant has great handles for a near 7 footer. Same with Giannis.

No, not really. It is just that other 7 footers, even guys like Dirk and KG who could actually dribble very well in their primes, actually had to care about carrying the ball, travels, etc. Here are two youtube vids showing some of the dribbling....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpJto7ZsLSo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_dJXFFZLtM

[STATUTORY]

why nitpick Curry's handles when Lebron is literally allowed to bulldoze over defenders, travel and stiffarm at will?

NBA is worse than And1 tbh

[Kblaze8855]

So the refs just making shit up now to defend each others calls. This happened:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/KlutzyCoarseChameleon-size_restricted.gif


Twitter erupts....players...fans. Everyone sees it. Bradley Beal himself:




Bradley Beal
‏
Verified account

@RealDealBeal23
18h18 hours ago
More Bradley Beal Retweeted Complex Sports
Look clean to me 😂😂🤷🏽*♂️Bradley Beal added,

0:18
Complex Sports
Verified account

@ComplexSports
Cancel NBA refs.
820 replies 10,877 retweets 65,963 likes
Reply 820 Retweet 11K Like 66K


NBA ref official account:





The offensive player gathers with his right foot on the ground. He then takes two legal steps, before losing control of the ball. After regaining possession, a player is allowed to regain his pivot foot and pass or shoot prior to that foot returning to the ground. This is legal.



Rex Chapman and Baron Davis called them out. Baron posted the Jordan "Stop it...get some help" Jordan gif.

Blake Griffin:



[QUOTE]Bradley Beal
‏
Verified account

@RealDealBeal23
1h1 hour ago
More Bradley Beal Retweeted Blake Griffin
Lol I

[NBAGOAT]

the beal one was just a coverup, something like that is usually going be called a travel.

I think there are too many factors to just say lax rules are turning away people but it could be true. I dont see the NBA turning back however besides a few minor rule changes, just the way things are progressing. Also even a small one focused on traveling could lead to a bunch of travel calls to start the year(like freedom of movement did to foul calls). The NBA doesnt want that as much as people think stars go to the line too much, the biggest thing they have on the NFL/MLB is the continuous flow of play.

[Kblaze8855]

Blake and Ellingtons reactions are the best part. Blake didnt even wait to come back go the ground to go crazy.

[game3524]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]https://i.postimg.cc/QtJtKkYs/A307-F241-471-F-4876-9-E1-D-C187-F5-EE07-F0.gif

Now that is real basketball




[B]Jokes aside. I would like teams to be able to play more defense then today. I would rather see a close gritty game than a high scoring one where no one is being touched. The early 2000