Revisiting 2004 Finals: Shaquille O'neal's sheer dominance

[LAmbruh]

Shaq: 27 ppg, 11 rbg, 2 apg, 61.5 TS%.


MDE dominating wave after wave of prime Sheed and DPOY Big Ben all series


Was looking at his 4th FMVP had his Lakers role guys stepped up


Not a single player on LA shot over 50% TS outside Shaq and Fox that series


Interesting take from FMVP Billups -


Our game plan was very calculated. We knew we were going to play Shaq straight-up. We knew there was no way we could stop Shaq straight-up. But, if we’re going to play Shaq straight-up, [the Lakers'] eyes are going to get big, which means they’re going to keep throwing it down there. We’re telling Ben the whole time, "Take fouls when you need to, but don’t get yourself into foul trouble. You need to give up a layup, cool, we’re going to get what we want on the other side." But what’s going to happen is Mr. Bryant is going to get a little discouraged with getting no touches and now the second half comes around…now he’s pressing. He’s going to start coming down and just breaking the offense. When you do that, you’re done—you’re playing right into our hands. Even if you start making those shots, you’re finished.


https://i.postimg.cc/dVksf1MY/e658714c890fd75ebe2f77a6f416e935.jpg

[Uncle Drew]

Good, original thread idea. http://insidehoops.com/forum/images/rating/rating_5.gif

That said, it's quite remarkable how a team of what were essentially role players were able to overcome the great Shaquille O'Neal. I think the outcome would have been different if one of the Lakers' role players stepped up to the task, but unfortunately none of them were able to really solidify themselves as the second star of the team. It was O'Neal against the world. As great as he was, as can be seen with him 3-peating on his own, even he had his limits.

[Uncle Drew]

Now that I think about it, saying O'Neal 3-peated on his own might be a bit too extreme. I have to give props where props are due. The likes of Glen Rice, Derek Fisher, Robert Horry and Rick Fox had some great moments as well.

[34-24 Footwork]

A 2004 Kobe Bryant Thread :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[kennethgriffen]

larry brown - "we let shaq get his and doubled everyone else"

[kennethgriffen]

i already proved this shit a while ago but here it is again


https://i.ibb.co/5nw16fP/thumbnail-3.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/bBbcvZm/thumbnail-4.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/W0SCfFV/thumbnail-2.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/yVXX2Gy/thumbnail-1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/8DJtgRg/thumbnail.jpg

[Manny98]

Maybe if Kobe knew how to exploit doubles and triples like LeBron instead of throwing up bricks the entire series they would have won

[PickernRoller]

i already proved this shit a while ago but here it is again


https://i.ibb.co/5nw16fP/thumbnail-3.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/bBbcvZm/thumbnail-4.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/W0SCfFV/thumbnail-2.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/yVXX2Gy/thumbnail-1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/8DJtgRg/thumbnail.jpg

Kenneth's bullying got to stop....

[kennethgriffen]

Maybe if Kobe knew how to exploit doubles and triples like LeBron instead of throwing up bricks the entire series they would have won


this was back when defenders could handcheck


usually kobe had someone to pass it out to. but at the time no other laker was hitting shots

i think payton shot like 28% in that series

[zeerghit]

this was back when defenders could handcheck


usually kobe had someone to pass it out to. but at the time no other laker was hitting shots

i think payton shot like 28% in that series
you really gonna defend 2004 kobe bryant in finals? its the same s*it what happened 2011 to lebron

[PickernRoller]

you really gonna defend 2004 kobe bryant in finals? its the same s*it what happened 2011 to lebron

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[zeerghit]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
why u laughing? kobe wanted to show that hes the man and he didint give a shit about team and he failed badly, he actually stole ring/fmvp from shaq

[kennethgriffen]

why u laughing? kobe wanted to show that hes the man and he didint give a shit about team and he failed badly, he actually stole ring/fmvp from shaq


kobe went down firing. won a game by himself

he faced doubles/triples all series



lebron just hid in the corner pouting and threw the series/quit


totally different

[zeerghit]

kobe went down firing. won a game by himself

he faced doubles/triples all series



lebron just hid in the corner pouting and threw the series/quit


totally different
ur on same 3ball level u f*cking baloon, he faced some double teams so f*cking pass the ball, no hes shooting fadeways. and yes he won a game but he lost 3 of them becouse of him, 25% f*cking impresive
and if u watched games it mostly was prince who destroyed him on defence

[ImKobe]

Maybe if Kobe knew how to exploit doubles and triples like LeBron instead of throwing up bricks the entire series they would have won

"exploit doubles and triples"

Fisher and GP couldn't shoot a three to save their lives & Malone was injured & old, hence why the Pistons got away with doing what they did. Go look at how good the team shot outside of Shaq and Kobe, Kobe was more effective than Fisher & GP despite him being double/triple covered.

[Sakkreth]

Now that I think about it, saying O'Neal 3-peated on his own might be a bit too extreme. I have to give props where props are due. The likes of Glen Rice, Derek Fisher, Robert Horry and Rick Fox had some great moments as well.

Refs rigging 2 rings for them should take some props too.

[zeerghit]

"exploit doubles and triples"

Fisher and GP couldn't shoot a three to save their lives & Malone was injured & old, hence why the Pistons got away with doing what they did. Go look at how good the team shot outside of Shaq and Kobe, Kobe was more effective than Fisher & GP despite him being double/triple covered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqvN7CE00xI
here you are this is game 3 the pictures kenneth posted, go and f*cking show me double/triple teamed
mosty all of his "double teams" is after screen help defence
btw rip dropped 31 straight on him

[Mr Feeny]

That was by far the worst finals series I've seen by a top 15 player. 38% shooting with some horrific basketball on display, taking one ill-advised shot after another, instead of giving it to Shaw who was killing his man.

He single handily lost them that finals. What was supposed to be a procession turned into the biggest clusterfark in one history.

[Uncle Drew]

Refs rigging 2 rings for them should take some props too.
Obviously, put I feel like such petty things tend to take away from performances. Peak for peak, O’Neal is as good as anyone. Rigged or not, we must acknowledge the things O’Neal did in those years, without any significant star support. He was so good, he could probably win the title with any NBA player as his #2 option.

[34-24 Footwork]

I remember all those rings he won alongside guys like Eddie Jones and Penny Hardaway.

ANY SG will do.

[ImKobe]

That was by far the worst finals series I've seen by a top 15 player. 38% shooting with some horrific basketball on display, taking one ill-advised shot after another, instead of giving it to Shaw who was killing his man.

He single handily lost them that finals. What was supposed to be a procession turned into the biggest clusterfark in one history.

Brian Shaw retired in 2003. Sorry bud.

[ImKobe]

Shaq averaged 14 shots and 10 FTA per game in RS of 2004, he was well past his physical prime. He was a liability defending the P&R (Pistons exposed this) and he was gassed by every 4th quarter.

Pistons played into that by covering Shaq man-to-man with a 6-8 Ben Wallace, making the Lakers go to him over & over again to wear him out and to keep the ball out of Kobe's hands. Lakers played into this and kept feeding Shaq, but they couldn't stop the Pistons on the other end & eventually Shaq was either in foul trouble, tired or both.

So, as I said, Shaq averaged 14 FGA 10 FTA for the 2004 season, he averaged ~17 FGA 11 FTA in the Finals. So he got more touches than he did all season/Playoffs (he averaged 13 FGA the first 3 rounds) and he was basically getting an equal amount of touches with Kobe.

The morons here will point to the difference in their FGA & will completely overlook the fact that Shaq shot 30 more freethrows than Kobe in the series & they'll completely overlook his turnovers (6 in Game 1 home loss), they also overlook the fact that Kobe played 20 more minutes in the series than Shaq, who got fatigued and who had to sit due to foul trouble.

The Lakers also had their worst loss of the series when Kobe had the lowest amount of shots, what did Shaq do in that game? He only got 2 free throws and finished with 14 points and 8 rebounds. So much for MDE dominating in a game where Kobe's willingly passing the ball up.

And Duncan won the FMVP the following year by averaging less points than Kobe on almost identical efficiency.

[Mr Feeny]

I agree with what the poster above me is saying. Kobe single handily lost that series :bowdown: I'm glad we agree:applause:

[Uncle Drew]

I agree with what the poster above me is saying. Kobe single handily lost that series :bowdown: I'm glad we agree:applause:
I wouldn't go that far. None of the role players stepped up in the series.

[Mr Feeny]

I wouldn't go that far. None of the role players stepped up in the series.I agree with you. Glenn Rice wasn't replaced adequately. Nobody was there to help Shaq!

[Uncle Drew]

I agree with you. Glenn Rice wasn't replaced adequately. Nobody was there to help Shaq!
More or less, yes. That's why it seems a bit extreme to me to put the blame of the loss of a series on just one role player. They all played under par. They often say about players that they play 1 v 5 because of individualism, but Shaq had to play 1 v 5 since he had no reliable second option to free him up some more. It was O'Neal, a bunch of role players, and a bunch of have beens.

[Trollsmasher]

I agree with what the poster above me is saying. Kobe single handily lost that series :bowdown: I'm glad we agree:applause:
not only that but the Pistons' strategy going into the series was all about knowing that Kobe would chuck Lakers out of it if they gave him a little nudge:bowdown:

[Rico2016]

Yikes

22-4-3 on 38% FG and 17% from 3

This is just sad :(

[Rico2016]

[QUOTE=Uncle Drew]Obviously, put I feel like such petty things tend to take away from performances. Peak for peak, O

[Uncle Drew]

I remember all those rings he won alongside guys like Eddie Jones and Penny Hardaway.

ANY SG will do.
I must have missed O'Neal being in his peak in 1995 or 1998. Amazing post once more. Keep it up. We know you got it in ya.

[Rico2016]

ANY SG will do.

So true, in the 2000 Finals Bryant was on fire, with a stat line of

15-4-4 on 36% Blazing hot

Any 15 and 4 on 36% will do :bowdown:

[imdaman99]

I was a Laker hater at that point (mostly because of Shaq) so I was thankful for Kobe throwing this series and shipping Shaq out. That's as alpha as it gets :applause:

[warriorfan]

you really gonna defend 2004 kobe bryant in finals? its the same s*it what happened 2011 to lebron

Wow. Lowest iq of all time. Way to expose yourself as a dumb shit from a 3rd world country that doesn

[Gotterdammerung]

And Duncan won the FMVP the following year by averaging less points than Kobe on almost identical efficiency.

Well stated counter-argument to the usual narrative that Kobe lost the series to the Pistons, but you didn't finish strong. Duncan won the FMVP in 2005 because he was far more than just a Kobe-like inefficient chucker. There are other ways of winning basketball games, for what it is worth.
:kobe:
Not only did Duncan actually perform better than Bryant, he also put up a stronger stat line:
20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.1 apg, and 2.1 blocks.

He led the Spurs in minutes (40.7) and Game Score (15.9).

Whereas Bryant against the same roster averaged the following:
22.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.4 apg. He did lead the Lakers in minutes (46.2) but his Game Score was a lousy (11.6) compared to Shaq's (18.7). :eek:

In the 2005 Western Conference Finals, the Spurs faced a tougher opponent in the Suns, but while they swarmed Duncan, he was content to win the series by not forcing the action by going back at a red-hot Amare Stoudemire. They won easily, 4-1.

Bottom Line: The Pistons relied on Bryant's rampant narcissism to succeed that they're still bragging about it for years. What an Achilles' heel! :oldlol:

[kennethgriffen]

its funny how lebron fans scream to everyone about how finals appearances are accomplishments in themselves and dismiss their idols failures


then they pick kobes 2004 finals like lebron didn't wet the bed in 2007, 2011, 2013 ( prior to the ray allen shot, 2014 vs an air conditioner, 2015 beyond 5 feet vs a role player, 2016 in the last 4 minutes of game 7, 2017 in a pivitol game 3 that cost them the series. then game 1 of OT, game 3 and quitting game 4 in 2018


for every one kobe failure theres a plethora of lebron choke jobs. FOH

:roll:


do i need to bring up the multipla bronze medals and failed #1 seeds ontop of all of this?

[Rico2016]

Well stated counter-argument to the usual narrative that Kobe lost the series to the Pistons, but you didn't finish strong. Duncan won the FMVP in 2005 because he was far more than just a Kobe-like inefficient chucker. There are other ways of winning basketball games, for what it is worth.
:kobe:
Not only did Duncan actually perform better than Bryant, he also put up a stronger stat line:
20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.1 apg, and 2.1 blocks.

He led the Spurs in minutes (40.7) and Game Score (15.9).

Whereas Bryant against the same roster averaged the following:
22.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.4 apg. He did lead the Lakers in minutes (46.2) but his Game Score was a lousy (11.6) compared to Shaq's (18.7). :eek:

In the 2005 Western Conference Finals, the Spurs faced a tougher opponent in the Suns, but while they swarmed Duncan, he was content to win the series by not forcing the action by going back at a red-hot Amare Stoudemire. They won easily, 4-1.

Bottom Line: The Pistons relied on Bryant's rampant narcissism to succeed that they're still bragging about it for years. What an Achilles' heel! :oldlol:


This is a critical blow to all Kobe fan boys. :eek:

[Rico2016]

its funny how lebron fans scream to everyone about how finals appearances are accomplishments in themselves and dismiss their idols failures


then they pick kobes 2004 finals like lebron didn't wet the bed in 2007, 2011, 2013 ( prior to the ray allen shot, 2014 vs an air conditioner, 2015 beyond 5 feet vs a role player, 2016 in the last 4 minutes of game 7, 2017 in a pivitol game 3 that cost them the series. then game 1 of OT, game 3 and quitting game 4 in 2018


for every one kobe failure theres a plethora of lebron choke jobs. FOH

:roll:

How many rings did LeBron win while doing 15-4-4 on 36%?

I'll wait

[LAmbruh]

Good, original thread idea. http://insidehoops.com/forum/images/rating/rating_5.gif

That said, it's quite remarkable how a team of what were essentially role players were able to overcome the great Shaquille O'Neal. I think the outcome would have been different if one of the Lakers' role players stepped up to the task, but unfortunately none of them were able to really solidify themselves as the second star of the team. It was O'Neal against the world. As great as he was, as can be seen with him 3-peating on his own, even he had his limits.
:cheers:


Good to see everyone is on page with MDE's pure brilliancy despite Larry Brown and his cast of only 1 all-star knowing full well there was nothing they could to stop MDE whether they tripled or single covered him


"let Shaq's role guys shoot them out the game", absolute masterpiece and it worked to a T :applause:

[warriorfan]

:cheers:


Good to see everyone is on page with MDE's pure brilliancy despite Larry Brown and his cast of only 1 all-star knowing full well there was nothing they could to stop MDE whether they tripled or single covered him


"let Shaq's role guys shoot them out the game", absolute masterpiece and it worked to a T :applause:

The 2004 Pistons were a great team. They only had one all star but that might not mean a whole lot, I mean LeBron James got outscored by a non all star in the Finals while even playing more minutes.

[bison]

Imagine starting a thread about Kobe circa 2004 fifteen years later :roll:

[Uncle Drew]

Taking a look at some of Lakers efficiency that Finals


Shaquille O'neal - 61.5 TS%.
Rick Fox - 57.1 TS%

Luke Walton - 46.8 TS%
Devean George - 48.7 TS%
Luke Walton - 46.8 TS%
Kobe Bryant - 45.6 TS%
Stanislav Medvedenko - 43.9 TS%
Good for Fox for stepping up! The other four role players you mentioned, however, not so much. They let O'Neal and the Laker fanbase down.

[LAmbruh]

^^ had to repost it because whoops I marked Luke twice, lets recap



Taking a look at some of Lakers efficiency that Finals


Shaquille O'neal - 61.5 TS%.
Rick Fox - 57.1 TS%

Devean George - 48.7 TS%
Luke Walton - 46.8 TS%
Kobe Bryant - 45.6 TS%
Stanislav Medvedenko - 43.9 TS%

[LAmbruh]

We should also note only did Shaq kill it on offense, but in defense as well.

Him and Mailman holding Sheed 11ppg and Ben 12ppg collectively

It was Lakers backcourt that took the brunt of Pistons offense for the 5 game series backdoor sweep

Billups - 21.4, 3.2, 5.2 apg
Rip - 21 ppg, 5 reb, 4 apg

[ImKobe]

We should also note only did Shaq kill it on offense, but in defense as well.

Him and Mailman holding Sheed 11ppg and Ben 12ppg collectively

It was Lakers backcourt that took the brunt of Pistons offense for the 5 game series backdoor sweep

Billups - 21.4, 3.2, 5.2 apg
Rip - 21 ppg, 5 reb, 4 apg

You don't know how P&R defense works, right? Why else do you think Billups was able to destroy the Lakers' defense? Shaq was garbage on defense.

[LAmbruh]

Well stated counter-argument to the usual narrative that Kobe lost the series to the Pistons, but you didn't finish strong. Duncan won the FMVP in 2005 because he was far more than just a Kobe-like inefficient chucker. There are other ways of winning basketball games, for what it is worth.
:kobe:
Not only did Duncan actually perform better than Bryant, he also put up a stronger stat line:
20.6 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.1 apg, and 2.1 blocks.

He led the Spurs in minutes (40.7) and Game Score (15.9).

Whereas Bryant against the same roster averaged the following:
22.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.4 apg. He did lead the Lakers in minutes (46.2) but his Game Score was a lousy (11.6) compared to Shaq's (18.7). :eek:

In the 2005 Western Conference Finals, the Spurs faced a tougher opponent in the Suns, but while they swarmed Duncan, he was content to win the series by not forcing the action by going back at a red-hot Amare Stoudemire. They won easily, 4-1.

Bottom Line: The Pistons relied on Bryant's rampant narcissism to succeed that they're still bragging about it for years. What an Achilles' heel! :oldlol:
Well said, agreed 100%:applause:

[superduper]

Your MDE Shaq played with both Kobe and Bran and says that Kobe is better.

I bet that stings you Bran morons :lol

[paksat]

kenneth you're too easy

they can get you to explode any time they wish

[eliteballer]

You mean getting out rebounded and outblocked bu a center 6 inches shorter than him, to be fair Big Ben was on peds.

[zeerghit]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Wow. Lowest iq of all time. Way to expose yourself as a dumb shit from a 3rd world country that doesn

[ArbitraryWater]

kobe, singlehandedly locked down by prince and rip hamilton respectively that series :facepalm

single coverage brought the man down

[LAmbruh]

Brilliant Finals performances by both Shaq in 04 and Duncan in 05.


Top 2 players of the 95-05 era always showcased when the lights were the brightest

[Manny98]

kenneth you're too easy

they can get you to explode any time they wish
:oldlol:

[AussieSteve]

kobe went down firing. won a game by himself

he faced doubles/triples all series



lebron just hid in the corner pouting and threw the series/quit


totally different

It is different. But it's not better or worse.

Both lebron and Kobe had personality flaws that cost them rings. Both of them showed mental fragility in their 2004 and 2011 failures.

Kobe didn't want to be 2nd fiddle. He wanted to be the man so badly that he sacrificed team success in his attempt to show everyone that he was.

I don't know what lebron's issue was in 2011. Fear of failure? Fear of success? Did he just choke? Who knows, but whatever, its a different manifestation of a personal insecurity that afflicted kobe also.

[Gus Hemmingway]

Insane carry job by Diesel, he simply had no help when it matter



5*

[Mr Feeny]

Poor Shaq. The only other Laker with 50 ts% was Fox. A certain role player took the majority of the shots at 38% and cost them the ring:facepalm

[Gus Hemmingway]

Poor Shaq. The only other Laker with 50 ts% was Fox. A certain role player took the majority of the shots at 38% and cost them the ring:facepalm
And a 4th FMVP

[Mr Feeny]

And a 4th FMVP

Poor Shaq:wtf:

[SpaceJam]

Kobe-Ball really ruined Payton and Malone that season...both 20ppg scorers the season before

[LAmbruh]

Unprecedented dominance by MDE (Most Dominant Ever)

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Having watched all these series live - there are other forces at work.


Had the 2004 Lakers gotten the same foul call treatment like they did vs the 2002 WCF (true) champ Kings, this series would have been way different.


This was a feel good story - a David vs. Goliath sort of thing. Malone and Payton went to go try to get a cheap end of career ring. Kobe's rape trial was the year before and he and Shaq had been feuding publicly.
So Kobe tried to be the man and shot them out of the series.
Fans collectively mostly hated cheap shot Karl Malone, and were tired of all of Kobe's BS.

Still most knew 2002 was a rig job as well. All of these factors combined with Kobe's lack of maturity / respect for his opponent / trying to be the "man" meant their fate was sealed (LA).


Plus Detroit played hella good defense.


As far as the "feel good" thing - it's really the key reason Lebron got gifted one in 2016. "I'm coming home" "Win one for the Land" rhetoric on every commercial on ESPN. "Poor Lebron had no healthy help in the 2015 Finals". ETC. Remember watching LBJ try to lip sync the great Chuck D's Welcome to the Terrordome? That was a song played before Tyson fought - not for a spoiled millennial brat's Nike commercial. Such manufactured BS we sit through these days as consumers.

Something I'd never seen before in 30+ years of watching basketball was a dude get suspended like that in the FINALS. Fine him, sit him down game one of the 2016-17 season. But game 5 at home? What a $ukking rig job Silver.


This $hit is entertainment folks. Even the big money pushing Lebron couldn't help him hit the big shot in game 7 - Kyrie saved his butt.

[Rico2016]

^^ had to repost it because whoops I marked Luke twice, lets recap



Taking a look at some of Lakers efficiency that Finals


Shaquille O'neal - 61.5 TS%.
Rick Fox - 57.1 TS%

Devean George - 48.7 TS%
Luke Walton - 46.8 TS%
Kobe Bryant - 45.6 TS%
Stanislav Medvedenko - 43.9 TS%


Geeze shut this one down