MJ never beat great teams, he's not the GOAT. -Robert Parish

[G0ATbe]

http://www.sbnationradio.com/robert-parish-jordan-isnt-greatest-time-didnt-beat-great-teams/
[QUOTE]

[sdot_thadon]

http://www.sbnationradio.com/robert-parish-jordan-isnt-greatest-time-didnt-beat-great-teams/


Agree or disagree?
that's not the only thing that matters but who can argue his stance? I can't.

[Marchesk]

When Larry, Kevin and myself were in our heyday, he couldn’t beat us.

Parish doesn't know this, because Jordan and the Bulls weren't in their heyday. Pistons were able to hold the Bulls back for a couple seasons, and then they the got swept.

Winning 6 tiles in 8 years means something, even if it was against 90s teams with 1 HOFer, and not 80s teams. It means the Bulls were really good and Jordan was the modern day Bill Russell.

But sure, Kareem, Wilt and Russell have an argument for GOAT. But is it better than Mike's?

[jstern]

Forgot Stockton and Malone.

One thing that I always find interesting with players and teams is how they can be considered great, everybody thinks their great. Top of the line, best in world, amazing, idolized. And then many years later, I guess because some type of recency bias, certain people, usually fanboys who were not alive, but also haters. People with agenda, look at the team as if they were subpar.

It happens all the time. Kidd, Payton. I've even seen it with Magic Johnson, and I'm starting to see it a little with Kobe.

I remember a time when people consider Dwight better than Ewing.

[STATUTORY]

people are always biased towards players that came before themselves

[Smoke117]

True. The 2nd threepeat bulls dominated a weak expansion depleted league. Same for the 2000-2002 Lakers, but even worse as all the 90s stars were aging out.

[3ball]

http://www.sbnationradio.com/robert-parish-jordan-isnt-greatest-time-didnt-beat-great-teams/


Agree or disagree?
It's an often retold lie

Isiah was 29 when MJ beat him... Dumars 27 and Rodman 29.

The Pistons were expected to 3-peat heading into the 91' season

The reality is that only MJ and Kobe won multiple rings with only 1 HOF, other than Shaq (who had Kobe) and hakeem (when MJ was put of the league)..

so MJ won multiple rings with the least help ever, and parish is just mad that might dunked on him a lot

[sdot_thadon]

Parish doesn't know this, because Jordan and the Bulls weren't in their heyday. Pistons were able to hold the Bulls back for a couple seasons, and then they the got swept.

Winning 6 tiles in 8 years means something, even if it was against 90s teams with 1 HOFer, and not 80s teams. It means the Bulls were really good and Jordan was the modern day Bill Russell.

But sure, Kareem, Wilt and Russell have an argument for GOAT. But is it better than Mike's?
I think the idea was more that he didn't beat as great competition as the other candidates and he'd be correct for the most part. But again its just a single aspect of a vast subject.



One thing that I always find interesting with players and teams is how they can be considered great, everybody thinks their great. Top of the line, best in world, amazing, idolized. And then many years later, I guess because some type of recency bias, certain people, usually fanboys who were not alive, but also haters. People with agenda, look at the team as if they were subpar
Robert Parish has played more seasons in the nba than this group you're attaching your disagreement to. He'd qualify as an nba historian as in he's ancient.

[Gus Hemmingway]

His toughest competition was a 17 year duo who won collectively 0 Finals together


The second option on that team, 35yo Jeff Hornacek @ 15ppg


It's no secret why the NBA fell off a cliff after 90's Bulls broke apart, the league was shit with zero talent

[Duncan21formvp]

MJ ended the 2x defending champions and then became the primary focal point. Duncan ended the Lakers dynasty in 2003 as well.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's strange that literally everyone claims that Pistons team was old when their arguable 3 best players; Isiah, Dumars & Rodman, were all 28-30 the year the Bulls beat them

[sdot_thadon]

It's strange that literally everyone claims that Pistons team was old when their arguable 3 best players; Isiah, Dumars & Rodman, were all 28-30 the year the Bulls beat them
you're absolutely right, maybe there are some deeper factors to take into consideration. They weren't just the badboys due to those 3. Lambier was 33 and was a huge part of their identity. That core never left the 1st round again after the bulls beat them which was the very next season, then never made the playoffs again, fell all the way to the lotto ending up with Grant Hill to start over. One huge overlooked factor is also the same season the bulls "overcame" the badboys tactics happened to coincide with:



The National Basketball Association (NBA) established the flagrant foul in the 1980-81 season and enacted proper penalties for it in 1990-91,[1] to deter contact which, in addition to being against the rules, puts an opponent's safety or health at risk.



1990-91
• Penalties for flagrant fouls increased such that an infraction is penalized by two free throw attempts and possession of the ball out-of-bounds. The offender may also be ejected if there is no apparent effort to play the ball and/or, in the official’s judgment, the contact was of such an excessive nature that an injury could have occurred. Ejected players will be automatically fined $250.

I'd imagine having their principle style neutered had something to do with their decline as well.

[iamgine]

Beating all time great teams may not be in everyone's criteria for GOAT.

But it's true that MJ's team never beat an all time great team.

[knicksman]

who cares? Chicago being a new team and jordan is willing to play there and won after 10 years is much harder feat than winning with lakers or boston.

[knicksman]

MJ just have that alpha aura. Once he figured it out, nobody dared to compete.

[Akrazotile]

MJ ended the 2x defending champions and then became the primary focal point. Duncan ended the Lakers dynasty in 2003 as well.


No, Kobe did in 04.

[3ball]

How many HOF teammates did Parish need to win his Celtics rings? (3)

How many did MJ need to win his first 3 rings? (1)

So who cares what teams mj played against because MJ had a weaker cast, so it evens out.. well it's harder for mj

And Infact, only MJ and kbe won multiple rings with only 1 HOF teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe), and hakeem (when MJ was out of the league)

[SpaceJam]

How many HOF teammates did Parish need to win his Celtics rings? (3)

How many did MJ need to win his first 3 rings? (1)

So who cares what teams mj played against because MJ had a weaker cast, so it evens out.. well it's harder for mj

And Infact, only MJ and kbe won multiple rings with only 1 HOF teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe), and hakeem (when MJ was out of the league)

Bron-2016

[Uncle Drew]

Parish played with Jordan too, so he has seen both sides. I don

[3ball]

Bron-2016
Multiple rings, and

Kevin Love 67.6% (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html) HOF probability

So Lebron had 2 HOF teammates

[SpaceJam]

Multiple rings, and

Kevin Love 67.6% (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html) HOF probability

So Lebron had 2 HOF teammates

Oh you've changed it to multiple now, good catch.

Also, okay K Love makes it. That's still only 1 HoF teammate bro, give props :cheers:

[3ball]

Oh you've changed it to multiple now, good catch.

Also, okay K Love makes it. That's still only 1 HoF teammate bro, give props :cheers:
It was always multiple

I've posted that about 10-15 times now

only MJ and kobe won multiple rings with 1 HOF teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe), and hakeem (when MJ was out of the league)

[Rico2016]

Yikes

3ball might not be feeling well now...

[Rico2016]

It was always multiple

I've posted that about 10-15 times now

only MJ and kobe won multiple rings with 1 HOF teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe), and hakeem (when MJ was playing baseball like a jackass)

Worst Father's day present ever

[SpaceJam]

It was always multiple

I've posted that about 10-15 times now

only MJ and kobe won multiple rings with 1 HOF teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe), and hakeem (when MJ was out of the league)

Story of your life

Anyway how does that theory hold up in regards to talent won against?

MJ won against 2 HoF players with a single HoF teammate, however Kobe won against 3. Does Kobe's hold a little bit more weight in that regard, the evidence suggests it would

[Rico2016]

No, Kobe did in 04.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Akrazotile]

No, Kobe did in 04.


:lebronamazed:

[3ball]

Story of your life

Anyway how does that theory hold up in regards to talent won against?

MJ won against 2 HoF players with a single HoF teammate, however Kobe won against 3. Does Kobe's hold a little bit more weight in that regard, the evidence suggests it would
Isiah, dumars and rodman are HOF's

Isiah was 29 when MJ beat him in 91.. dumars 27.. rodman 29

Pistons also had 3x all-stars at every starting spot, except rodman 2x

Those pistons also beat the goat 88' Lakers except for a bad call, and then destroyed them in 89' - so don't forget that those pistons were on the same level as the lakers/celtics..

and that's been my point - MJ was expected to compete with these dynasties.. no one cared about his weak cast - the narrative was that he needed to "elevate teammates" like magic/bird to win like they did.. so it was agonizing every year when his outmatched team would come up short. But once he had a 16-17 ppg, all-star sidekick, lights out.. the least help ever to win multiple rings

And actually, people were even dumber back then with the excuses used to keep bird/magic over MJ... i.e. "he's a scoring champ, that's why he can't win" (not that his cast was bad)

[SpaceJam]

Isiah, dumars and rodman are HOF's

Isiah was 29 when MJ beat him in 91.. dumars 27.. rodman 29

Pistons also had 3x all-stars at every starting spot, except rodman 2x

Those pistons also beat the goat 88' Lakers except for a bad call, and then destroyed them in 89' - so don't forget that those pistons were on the same level as the lakers/celtics..

and that's been my point - MJ was expected to compete with these dynasties.. no one cared about his weak cast - the narrative was that he needed to "elevate teammates" like magic/bird to win like they did.. so it was agonizing every year when his outmatched team would come up short. But once he had a 16-17 ppg, all-star sidekick, lights out.. the least help ever to win multiple rings

Bro are we talking RINGS or what....the most HoF players he faced in the finals with a single HoF team-mate was the Lakers with Magic and Worthy...Kobe faced Pierce, Ray and KG.

As I said, the facts show Kobe's win in 2010 holds a little more weight

[3ball]

Bro are we talking RINGS or what....the most HoF players he faced in the finals with a single HoF team-mate was the Lakers with Magic and Worthy...Kobe faced Pierce, Ray and KG.

As I said, the facts show Kobe's win in 2010 holds a little more weight
Nah, the Pistons >>>

Celtics were hurt and old (Garnett 33, pierce 32, Allen 34). Yeah, I'll take 29-year old Isiah, 27 dumars, and 29 yr rodman

[SpaceJam]

Nah, the Pistons >>>

Celtics were hurt and old (Garnett 33, pierce 32, Allen 34). Yeah, I'll take 29-year old Isiah, 27 dumars, and 29 yr rodman

Beating a bare-50 win team doesn't impress me bro

[Hotlantadude81]

http://www.sbnationradio.com/robert-parish-jordan-isnt-greatest-time-didnt-beat-great-teams/


Agree or disagree?

Rodman didn't play for Chicago when they beat Portland. Besides, Utah had two HOF's and Robert conveniently left them out.

[Da_Realist]

So MJ is not the greatest because he didn't beat superteams by himself? Got it.

When MJ had a championship caliber team, for the most part they won. The only year MJ had a team that could have won a title but didn't was 1990. That was because they were beaten by a better team.

The Bulls were younger and more talented.
The Pistons were a little better, more experienced in big games and had homecourt advantage.

[Nowoco]

His argument doesnt really make sense. In the 80s there were 3-4 teams stacked with all-time greats. Just because the 90s didnt have super teams for the most part, doesnt mean winning championships is easier or less impressive.

Jordan's Bulls had the best record almost every year and beat everything the NBA could throw at them, 6 times in 8 years. If you beat the best then you deserve to win it all. Its not like the Bulls steamrolled every team every series 4-0, they had hard some really tough tests.

And Parish has got some nerve to take the high ground because his career was mediocre at best until he joined a stacked team with some of the greatest players ever.

[Nowoco]

It's strange that literally everyone claims that Pistons team was old when their arguable 3 best players; Isiah, Dumars & Rodman, were all 28-30 the year the Bulls beat them

Yep and never forget in the Bulls last championship Jordan was 35, Pippen 33, Rodman 37, Kerr 33, Harper 34. The idea a team can be "too old" a year after they won the championship is ludicrous.

[Phoenix]

The fact that Parish had Bird and Mchale on his squad beating 22 year old MJ and teammates you'd need to look up basketball reference to remember shows a hilarious lack of self-awareness.

The 'the Pistons got old' thing is funny too. Isiah and Rodman were 30, Dumars was 28. Isiah wasn't 100% but him being so wouldn't have changed the outcome of that 91 series. Bear in mind the Bulls took them to 7 the year before, and Detroit went on to win the title that year. Nobody was calling them old or washed up, or close to it in 1990. It was kind of obvious that if MJ had someone else who could consistently step up that Detroit's days were numbered. Transport 91 Scottie back into 1990 and the Bulls would have beaten the Pistons a year earlier.

[Manny98]

MJ beat the Bad Boys when they were past their primes so it doesn't count

Vinnie Johnson and Laimbeer were in their mid 30s

IT was dealing with a leg injury throughout the entire 91 season

They had no Dantley or Rick Mahorn either so it was nowhere close to the same Pistons from the late 80s

[Anti Vida]

No, Kobe did in 04.

Tim ended the dynasty, and Kobe made sure it would never come back. This was funny though.

MJ did face great teams, it's just that they lost so people want to write them off. Lebron never dominated an era. Everyone won rings in his era and no great was denied a ring. Dirk should have never won that title, he should be ringless, and Duncan should not have gotten his thumb ring to complete the hand in 2014 either. MJ denied other all time greats that accomplishment, lebron denied nobody.

The 7 straight finals series isn't that impressive when you realize he was facing Kemba walker and Jeff teague en route to those finals. He played only 2 All NBA first or second team members for his entire run in the eastern conference and those were pre injury rose and noah. It's just not that impressive. Lost 6 finals out of 9 shows he faced garbage to get to the finals. MJ faced more comp than he did.

[Phoenix]

MJ beat the Bad Boys when they were past their primes so it doesn't count

They had no Dantley or Rick Mahorn either so it was nowhere close to the same Pistons from the late 80s



So we can ignore Lebron's 2013 title beating a 37 year old Duncan, 36 year old Ginobli, and 31 year old Parker who were 6 years removed from their last title? Thanks for clearing that up.

Dantley and Rick Mahorn weren't on the 1990 team that WON the title. Don't start running off a list of names you never saw play or have a fukking clue about.

[r0drig0lac]

It's strange that literally everyone claims that Pistons team was old when their arguable 3 best players; Isiah, Dumars & Rodman, were all 28-30 the year the Bulls beat them
this

[Nowoco]

They had no Dantley or Rick Mahorn either so it was nowhere close to the same Pistons from the late 80s

Dantley wasnt part of either Championship winning team and Mahorn wasnt part of the second title :facepalm

[Manny98]

Dantley and Rick Mahorn weren't on the 1990 team that WON the title. Don't start running off a list of names you never saw play or have a fukking clue about.
That's why i said from the late 80s

IT was injured, Laimbeer was old , Vinnie was old,Aguire old

sorry but it doesn't count as a GREAT team

[Manny98]

Robert Parish is 100% right

Imagine the best team you beat in your entire career being the old broken down Pistons :roll: :roll: :roll:

Sorry but that's not GOAT worthy

[ImKobe]

Beat Magic
Beat Bad Boy Pistons
Beat all the good Knicks teams
Beat the best offense of the 90s(other than the Bulls) with four all-star players that included MVP Barkley
SWEPT Shaq, Penny & Grant on a 60-win Magic team
Beat a 64-win Sonics team that had GP, Kemp, Schrempf, Hawkins, Perkins, who swept Hakeem in the WCSF
Beat Stockton & Malone twice on 64 and 62-win teams, those guys swept prime Shaq with 3 other all-stars on the '98 Lakers

I mean, Jordan "only" beat FOUR 60+ win teams in the Finals, guess that's not enough.

And Jordan had the best team of his era, the 90s Bulls are the most dominant dynasty in the modern NBA, no one else comes close.

[Anti Vida]

So we can ignore Lebron's 2013 title beating a 37 year old Duncan, 36 year old Ginobli, and 31 year old Parker who were 6 years removed from their last title? Thanks for clearing that up.

Dantley and Rick Mahorn weren't on the 1990 team that WON the title. Don't start running off a list of names you never saw play or have a fukking clue about.

Don't forget to ignore him beating the Celtics in the playoffs either since they were all over 30 years of age when that happened. If MJ beat the washed up Pistons, the celtics lebron beat were the walking dead.

[Hey Yo]

Beat Magic
Beat Bad Boy Pistons
Beat all the good Knicks teams
Beat the best offense of the 90s(other than the Bulls) with four all-star players that included MVP Barkley
SWEPT Shaq, Penny & Grant on a 60-win Magic team
Beat a 64-win Sonics team that had GP, Kemp, Schrempf, Hawkins, Perkins, who swept Hakeem in the WCSF
Beat Stockton & Malone twice on 64 and 62-win teams, those guys swept prime Shaq with 3 other all-stars on the '98 Lakers

I mean, Jordan "only" beat FOUR 60+ win teams in the Finals, guess that's not enough.

And Jordan had the best team of his era, the 90s Bulls are the most dominant dynasty in the modern NBA, no one else comes close.
Win totals were inflated throughout the league during that 6 team expansion era.

[Anti Vida]

Win totals were inflated throughout the league during that 6 team expansion era.

And win totals are inflated now due to openly tanking teams. The 73 win warriors really aren't a 73 win team, we can dismiss them too. See how easy that was?

[Manny98]

Beat Magic
Beat Bad Boy Pistons
Beat all the good Knicks teams
Beat the best offense of the 90s(other than the Bulls) with four all-star players that included MVP Barkley
SWEPT Shaq, Penny & Grant on a 60-win Magic team
Beat a 64-win Sonics team that had GP, Kemp, Schrempf, Hawkins, Perkins, who swept Hakeem in the WCSF
Beat Stockton & Malone twice on 64 and 62-win teams, those guys swept prime Shaq with 3 other all-stars on the '98 Lakers

I mean, Jordan "only" beat FOUR 60+ win teams in the Finals, guess that's not enough.

And Jordan had the best team of his era, the 90s Bulls are the most dominant dynasty in the modern NBA, no one else comes close.
Beat injured Lakers
Beat old broken down Pistons
Knicks :roll:
Suns the worst defensive team in finals history
Swept Baby Shaq + Grant was injured
Sonics lol there best player is basically the Blake Griffin of the 90s
Jazz who's second scorer was Jeff Hornacek

not GOAT worthy

[Phoenix]

That's why i said from the late 80s

IT was injured, Laimbeer was old , Vinnie was old,Aguire old

sorry but it doesn't count as a GREAT team

How crucial were those players you listed if the team still won a title without them? Mahorn and Dantley not on the team didn't stop the Pistons from winning a title. That's the point. If Laimbeer wasn't 'old' in 90 when Detroit won, he's not suddenly 'too old' a year after. Especially for someone with that style of play, going from 32 to 33 doesn't make a bit of difference. Acquire was 30. Vinnie was already early 30's when they won. There weren't 'too old' to win then. Nice try.

So the Spurs don't count in 2013 because Duncan was 37, Ginobli was 36, and Parker was 31, all of whom had far more years of wear and tear than the 91 Pistons? You're not gonna skate around that. :no:

[Nowoco]

As has been said, Dumars, Rodman and Thomas were all under 30. The players over 30 like Aguirre and Laimbeer put up identical numbers as the season before while Johnson actually had better numbers.

The Pistons being too old is a myth.

[Hey Yo]

And win totals are inflated now due to openly tanking teams. The 73 win warriors really aren't a 73 win team, we can dismiss them too. See how easy that was?
Where did I say that wins should be dismissed, ya stupidfvck?

[Odinn]

I think Parish should stick to what he had seen on the field.
After the '80s, it was hard to form super teams due to the mechanic changes.
People consider the '90s Bulls as an all-time great team because they had MJ and MJ won them titles. When you think of it, then the '90s Bulls weren't an all-time great team too.

I respect Kareem talking about different aspects of the goat conversation. This is just BS.

[Manny98]

As has been said, Dumars, Rodman and Thomas were all under 30. The players over 30 like Aguirre and Laimbeer put up identical numbers as the season before while Johnson actually had better numbers.

The Pistons being too old is a myth.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1991-01-26/sports/9101260190_1_pistons-thomas-wrist

Their best player was injured nuff said

[Phoenix]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1991-01-26/sports/9101260190_1_pistons-thomas-wrist

Their best player was injured nuff said

The Bulls were clearly coming regardless, game 7 in 1990 before Scottie was ready for primetime. Isiah's wrist isn't the difference between getting swept and them beating the Bulls in 91. They still made it to the ECFs, beating Atlanta and Boston. So they weren't 'too old' to get to the conference finals, just too old when it comes to Chicago beating them apparently. Players being 28-30 years old has never been considered 'past prime' unless it's the 91 Pistons we're talking about. MJ himself was 28 and a few months older than Dumars. MJ was old for his first title? Interesting.

[ImKobe]

Beat injured Lakers
Beat old broken down Pistons
Knicks :roll:
Suns the worst defensive team in finals history
Swept Baby Shaq + Grant was injured
Sonics lol there best player is basically the Blake Griffin of the 90s
Jazz who's second scorer was Jeff Hornacek

not GOAT worthy

Magic was in his prime and had just won MVP the year before
Pistons were healthy
Knicks won 60 games in 1993 and had prime Ewing with Riles coaching, best defense in the league
Suns were a top 10 defense and better than these Cavs teams, they won 62 games with Kevin Johnson missing half the season, '93 Suns 106.7 DRTG(9th), 2017 Cavs 110.3 DRTG(21st), 2018 Cavs 111.9 DRTG (29th), heck, even the 2018 Warriors had a worse DRTG (107.6, 11th)
Shaq was 24 and coming off a Finals appearance
Sonics best player was GP, arguably one of the best defensive players in NBA history who led the league in steals in '96
Jazz 2nd option was between Stockton/Russell/Hornacek


Again your lack of knowledge is exposed :facepalm

[Nowoco]

Btw, who did the Lakers beat in their three peat in the "much stronger" era?

An old decrepit Pacers. Miller 34, Jackson 34, Smits 33, McKey 33, Mullin 36.

A 76ers team with Mutombo as second option.

A 52 win Nets team with a starting 5 of Jason Kidd, Kerry Kittles, Kenyon Martin, Keith Van Horn and Todd MacCulloch.

Literally all of the teams MJ beat were better than all three of the teams above and its not even close.

[Manny98]

The Bulls were clearly coming regardless, game 7 in 1990 before Scottie was ready for primetime. Isiah's wrist isn't the difference between getting swept and them beating the Bulls in 91. They still made it to the ECFs, sweeping Boston and New York. So they weren't 'too old' to get to the conference finals, just too old when it comes to Chicago beating them apparently. Players being 28-30 years old has never been considered 'past prime' unless it's the 91 Pistons we're talking about. Interesting.
I'm supposed to be impressed by beating a team that's best player has just come back from a surgery to repair a torn ligament in his wrist?

Plus the fact that their role players were old and washed up

Plus the fact that they have come from consecutive deep playoff runs the past 5 years before so they are fatigued phisically and mentally

Plus the fact that they got destroyed in the first round a year later

[Nowoco]

"Too old" 1991 Pistons - Two starters over 30

1991 Bulls - Two starters over 30

:lol

[ImKobe]

Btw, who did the Lakers beat in their three peat in the "much stronger" era?

An old decrepit Pacers. Miller 34, Jackson 34, Smits 33, McKey 33, Mullin 36.

A 76ers team with Mutombo as second option.

A 52 win Nets team with a starting 5 of Jason Kidd, Kerry Kittles, Kenyon Martin, Keith Van Horn and Todd MacCulloch.

Literally all of the teams MJ beat were better than all three of the teams above and its not even close.

Spurs (twice)
Kings (twice)
Portland with Pippen, Sabonis, Stoudamire, Sheed (three times)
Suns with Kidd & Penny

WCF was the real Finals in the 3-peat Lakers era and they delivered 3 straight times.

[Psileas]

The Pistons may not have been "old" in the true sense, apart from Laimbeer, who was actually old and his game did decline significantly in the early 90's, but they were certainly playing much older than their age and they couldn't overcome their injury issues at all. They dropped from champions to "merely good" within a single season (they were having many ups and downs even when Isiah was playing, but obviously his injury made things much worse, since the Pistons were better season finishers than starters) and they never recovered since. They struggled in the playoffs before even getting to face the Bulls. In 1992, they dropped below 50 wins, in 1993, with Rodman's absenses, they were almost irrelevant. Their greatness was cut short and I'm pretty confident they wouldn't have won another title even if Jordan hadn't existed (Magic would likely have 6 - and 4 Finals' MVP's).

[Phoenix]

I'm supposed to be impressed by beating a team that's best player has just come back from a surgery to repair a torn ligament in his wrist?

Plus the fact that their role players were old and washed up

Plus the fact that they have come from consecutive deep playoff runs the past 5 years before so they are fatigued phisically and mentally

Plus the fact that they got destroyed in the first round a year later

Are we supposed to be impressed by beating a team with a 37, 36 and 31 year old as 3 of the 4 best players?

Plus the fact that their role players were all over 30 when they were winning titles. Being 30 or over means very little to a player like Bill Laimbeer. He's not 'too old' at 33 in 1991 but too old at 32 in 1990. Microwave was capable of going off in 91 just like he could in 89. Bulls has 'old' role players too. Paxson was 31. Cartwright was 33. Levingston was 30. Hodges was 31. No excuses. :no:

The Bulls went through 5 consecutive deep playoff runs. ECFs in 89. ECFs in 90. Champions in 91. Champions in 92. Champions in 93. Jordan and Scottie were 30 and 28 when they won the 93 title. Same ages as Dumars, Isiah, and Rodman. Cartwright was 35. Paxson was 33. Considering the beatings MJ took from Detroit and New York, no one should have been more banged up than him at the end of the first 3peat. No excuses. :no:

What they did in 92 has no bearing on 91. They were good enough to make the conference finals and lost to a better team. The end.

[Nowoco]

Plus the fact that their role players were old and washed up

Playoff numbers of non starting Pistons.

1990
Johnson 10ppg @ 46%
Edwards 14ppg @ 50%
Salley 10/6 @ 48%
Aguirre 11ppg @47%

1991
Johnson 15ppg @ 46%
Edwards 11ppg @ 40%
Salley 8/4 @ 54%
Aguirre 16ppg @ 51%

So Johnson and Aguirre actually put up better numbers whilst Salley and Edwards basically the same but lets not let facts get in the way :facepalm

[Hey Yo]

Spurs (twice)
Kings (twice)
Portland with Pippen, Sabonis, Stoudamire, Sheed (three times)
Suns with Kidd & Penny

WCF was the real Finals in the 3-peat Lakers era and they delivered 3 straight times.
Spurs with Avery Johnson, Terry Porter, Danny Ferry, Derek Anderson, Steve Kerr

:roll:

[ImKobe]

Spurs with Avery Johnson, Terry Porter, Danny Ferry, Derek Anderson, Steve Kerr

:roll:

Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Gregg Popovich with the #1 seed in 2001, swept

go **** yourself

[Hey Yo]

Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Gregg Popovich with the #1 seed in 2001, swept

go **** yourself
Yep...guys that Shaq had to go up against and I posted the ones Kobe got to ISO against.

:roll:

[sportjames23]

http://www.sbnationradio.com/robert-parish-jordan-isnt-greatest-time-didnt-beat-great-teams/


Agree or disagree?

Chief got his last ring riding MJ

[Anti Vida]

Where did I say that wins should be dismissed, ya stupidfvck?

Here we go with the name calling. Happy Monday to you dude. You raised expansion teams as a point to say the teams win totals that MJ beat are overrated even if you did not use that exact verbiage. So by that logic, we can apply the same to the teams now, because teams are openly tanking and have been during this era. Have a nice day.

[ImKobe]

Yep...guys that Shaq had to go up against and I posted the ones Kobe got to ISO against.

:roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2-o-3Uc42g

[Trollsmasher]

Good on Parish to spread the facts

Fact 1:

MJ got his ass handed to him time and time again during the '80s when the competition was good

Fact 2:

He only started winning basketball games when he got a TOP 30 ATG as a teammate with Pippen's growing into the player he was to become despite MJ's selfish and ineffective style of play and leadership

Fact 3:

He only started winning when the weakest era in the history - the '90s - began. Two things were typical of the '90s:

1) The great teams of the '80s fell apart

2) Expansions dilluted the talent of the theoretical up and coming teams

Fact 4:

We all know that MJ faced extremely weak competition in the Finals (by far the weakest for any TOP 10 ATG). That's not even being debated these days. What some people don't realize that the reportedly "strong" East MJ faced during the '90s was also very weak. His biggest rival were The Knicks whose second best player was John "the worst game of all time" Starks. And it got even worse after them.

[Manny98]

At the end of the day MJ never came close to beating a team as good as

This ...
https://i.postimg.cc/R0Jfy9d0/Shaquille-O-Neal-Rajon-Rondo-Boston-Celtics-d9hyyj-lxhkl.jpg

Or this....
https://i.postimg.cc/90Djt8Vs/thundercore.png

Or this...
https://i.postimg.cc/FsjhP60Q/tim-duncan-manu-ginobili-tony-parker-kawhi-leonard-nba-playoffs.jpg

Or this....
https://i.postimg.cc/BQtxHxFD/i-1.png

[ImKobe]

At the end of the day MJ never came close to beating a team as good as




Lebron never beat the good Celtics teams...2011 Celtics were past their prime and Shaq didn't even play against Miami.

[Phoenix]

At the end of the day MJ never came close to beating a team as good as

This ...
https://i.postimg.cc/R0Jfy9d0/Shaquille-O-Neal-Rajon-Rondo-Boston-Celtics-d9hyyj-lxhkl.jpg



Neither did Bron till he teamed with prime Wade. :confusedshrug: Aren't all those guys mid 30's and 'too old' as well( except Rondo)? Beating them doesn't count. :confusedshrug:

[bigkingsfan]

All of MJ competitions failed to win titles once he retired. The Jazz were the only team to even reach the conference finals again.

[Hey Yo]

Here we go with the name calling. Happy Monday to you dude. You raised expansion teams as a point to say the teams win totals that MJ beat are overrated even if you did not use that exact verbiage. So by that logic, we can apply the same to the teams now, because teams are openly tanking and have been during this era. Have a nice day.
Tanking happens in every era. Established teams not caring about embracing fans for a season here and there is no big deal.

Expansion teams though, the new owners are out to impress and sell the product to the hometown fans. He needs asses through the gates and in the seats. The players are trying to keep a roster spot to keep getting paychecks. They want to win!!

See the difference, chico?

[Nowoco]

Good on Parish to spread the facts

Fact 1:

MJ got his ass handed to him time and time again during the '80s when the competition was good

He got beaten by ATG teams with zero help and put up insane numbers in every series.


Fact 2:

He only started winning basketball games when he got a TOP 30 ATG as a teammate with Pippen's growing into the player he was to become despite MJ's selfish and ineffective style of play and leadership

The Bulls won 50 games in Pippen's rookie season however he was putting up 8ppg in 20 minutes from the bench. Some people seem to think Pippen was a behemoth as soon as he entered the league.

[Manny98]

:oldlol: at people saying the Celtics were too old they got to the finals the year before plus they would have won if not for injury

2011 Celtics = 56 wins 4.83 SRS 5 HOF

91 Pistons = 50 wins 3.08 SRS + best player was injured

[ImKobe]

:oldlol: at people saying the Celtics were too old they got to the finals the year before plus they would have won if not for injury

2011 Celtics = 56 wins 4.83 SRS 5 HOF

91 Pistons = 50 wins 3.08 SRS + best player was injured

They were 28 - 9 in RS with Shaq and 28 - 17 without(51 win pace), Shaq had a career-ending injury in the first round.

[Phoenix]

:oldlol: at people saying the Celtics were too old they got to the finals the year before plus they would have won if not for injury

2011 Celtics = 56 wins 4.83 SRS 5 HOF

91 Pistons = 50 wins 3.08 SRS + best player was injured

The only one making a point about age is you. I'm not discounting the Celtics because they were 'old', I'm bringing up the point that you're dismissing the Bulls beating Detroit due to their age while casually ignoring that two of the better teams Lebron overcame( 2011 and 2012 Celtics, 2013 Spurs) had key players who were all older than the 91 Pistons. Lebron couldn't get past Detroit until they got old( lost in 2006, beat them in 2007 after losing Ben Wallace and 3 years after their last title). Lebron couldn't get past the 'prime' Big 3 Celtics in 2008, and their window was beginning to close in 2010 as well. Couldn't get past them that year either, and needed prime Wade to be the best player in the 2011 series to do so.

[sdot_thadon]

So it seems like we're just going to say the pistons were all in their prime due to age and ignore all the other factors in them being considered washed up, mainly the fact they never even made it out the 1st rd the following year and missed the playoffs the very next year and only got worse each year.:biggums:

[Nowoco]

So it seems like we're just going to say the pistons were all in their prime due to age and ignore all the other factors in them being considered washed up, mainly the fact they never even made it out the 1st rd the following year and missed the playoffs the very next year and only got worse each year.:biggums:

Firstly Johnson and Edwards had left. Secondly they had nearly the same record as the year before but ran into a very good and well coached Knicks team in the first round and lost a very tight series in 5 games. Chuck Daly left after that season.

[ImKobe]

So it seems like we're just going to say the pistons were all in their prime due to age and ignore all the other factors in them being considered washed up, mainly the fact they never even made it out the 1st rd the following year and missed the playoffs the very next year and only got worse each year.:biggums:

They got older and certain key players left, Zeke blew his achilles and Chuck Daly didn't coach them after '92. They played a 51-win Knicks team in the first round in 1992 and lost a close Game 5 (1st round was a best of 5).

Pistons should have been up 2 - 1 in that series with Game 4 at home (which they won) and they would have played the Bulls again & lost, but they blew Game 3 @ home in OT.

Let's not forget that they won 50 games in 1991 with Zeke playing only half the season.

Are we going to look over the fact that they beat a 56-win Celtics in team in 1991 that still had Bird, Parish, McHale, Lewis? And Zeke was still coming back from his injury in that series & played limited minutes, they still beat Boston 4 - 2.

Zeke was back to being a major rotation player by the ECF and they got SWEPT.

I don't want to hear these excuses.

[Phoenix]

They got older and certain key players left, Zeke blew his achilles and Chuck Daly didn't coach them after '92. They played a 51-win Knicks team in the first round in 1992 and lost a close Game 5 (1st round was a best of 5).

Pistons should have been up 2 - 1 in that series with Game 4 at home (which they won) and they would have played the Bulls again & lost, but they blew Game 3 @ home in OT.



Bear in mind that this was the same Knicks team in their prime that gave the Bulls all they could handle in the ECFs and would have had a great shot to beat the Blazers in the finals. There's no shame in an aging Pistons squad playing that team close.

[Da_Realist]

They got older and certain key players left, Zeke blew his achilles and Chuck Daly didn't coach them after '92. They played a 51-win Knicks team in the first round in 1992 and lost a close Game 5 (1st round was a best of 5).

Pistons should have been up 2 - 1 in that series with Game 4 at home (which they won) and they would have played the Bulls again & lost, but they blew Game 3 @ home in OT.

Let's not forget that they won 50 games in 1991 with Zeke playing only half the season.

Are we going to look over the fact that they beat a 56-win Celtics in team in 1991 that still had Bird, Parish, McHale, Lewis? And Zeke was still coming back from his injury in that series & played limited minutes, they still beat Boston 4 - 2.

Zeke was back to being a major rotation player by the ECF and they got SWEPT.

I don't want to hear these excuses.

The 56 win Celtics were a good team that year, too (1991).

The Pistons were not old. The Pistons traditionally won games with heart, effort, teamwork and execution. They made teams uncomfortable, took away their best options on offense and forced teams to focus longer than they were used to. They won by slowing things down and forcing teams to grind it out for 48 minutes. They won by out-thinking their opponents, out-executing them and getting them off their game. The won by playing outstanding defense.

However, outside of Dennis Rodman, they didn't really have a ton of athletic ability. Their main weapons on offense were 3 guards that were between 6'1" and 6'3".

The Bulls were younger and more athletically gifted but not as disciplined or experienced from 88-90. By 91, the Bulls were just as mentally strong, just as disciplined, had enough experience...and were able to utilize their natural athletic ability and youth to blow Detroit out of the water. Once Chicago matched them on the mental level, Detroit knew they would never compete for a championship again because Chicago had massive advantages physically.

By 92, the Bulls were flirting with winning 70 games.

The Pistons knew they could no longer compete. They were outclassed on every level by 92. The Pistons lost to the Knicks that year for 3 reasons...

1) They always had problems with the Knicks, even going back to their championship years. A few of them are on record stating the Knicks always had their number.

2) The Knicks were a younger, more athletic version of themselves. Very physical but with a monster in the middle and a coach that could match wits with Chuck Daly.

3) The Pistons were imploding. Isiah felt betrayed by Coach Daly for not demanding that Isiah be placed on the Olympics team. Isiah admitted that was a source of tension between the two during that season. Daly knew it was his last season in Detroit.

It wasn't just a simple case of getting "old".

[72-10]

wow, how could anyone think Kemp won't make the Hall? And Kemp was in his prime. Hawkins and Schrempf were no jokes, either.

Hornacek as a third option was no joke, either.

Suggesting the Bulls weren't favored in the second three peat sounds stupid, but suggesting they didn't beat great teams sounds equally stupid.

It's negated by the fact that Jordan carried those first three championship teams in '91, '92 and '93.

As for the all-time great teams Jordan's Bulls went up against in the late 80s, out of all the top 15 players all-time, Jordan probably had the least amount of help among them other than maybe Oscar Robertson.

[Duncan21formvp]

All of MJ competitions failed to win titles once he retired. The Jazz were the only team to even reach the conference finals again.
If Brady beats the Giants both times and Philly in 2017 then neither of Brady's competition wins a title either unless they beat Brady.

Dirk never gets a ring if he didn't beat Lebron either in 2011.

[bigkingsfan]

If Brady beats the Giants both times and Philly in 2017 then neither of Brady's competition wins a title either unless they beat Brady.

Dirk never gets a ring if he didn't beat Lebron either in 2011.
If MJ beat the Pistons, they wouldn't be a dynasty.

If Duncan didn't lose in the first round to Zack Randolph, he might have another shot at a title.

If the NBA was one game elimination, MJ would have less titles.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The 1990 Pistons are considered the best version of that team, and Jordan took them to 7 games despite:

- No player on his team having an ORtg > 101 for the series
- No player on his team having an average GameScore (PER equivalent) > 12.2 for the series (~15 is an average player, mind you).

In game 7, Jordan had 31/8/9/48% FG despite the defense keying on him, yet his "supporting cast" went 1-10 FG for 2 points (Pippen) and 3-17 FG for 10 points (Grant). The Bulls excluding Jordan shot 24% FG in game 7. And what MJ's 9 assists that game doesn't show - you have to actually watch the game - is that he should have really had 12-14 assists, but his team kept blowing wide open layups and shots on some nice passes.

You really think the more seasoned Bulls of '91 onward wouldn't destroy that Pistons team? Get real. :facepalm :roll:

[Duncan21formvp]

If MJ beat the Pistons, they wouldn't be a dynasty.

If Duncan didn't lose in the first round to Zack Randolph, he might have another shot at a title.

If the NBA was one game elimination, MJ would have less titles.
If Lebron never played with Kobe he would never have gotten a gold medal. If he didn't join Wade a proven champion he wouldn't have a title. And if he didn't join Kyrie (allstar game mvp the season before) and the guy who outplayed Curry in the finals he wouldn't have a title either.

[bigkingsfan]

If Lebron never played with Kobe he would never have gotten a gold medal. If he didn't join Wade a proven champion he wouldn't have a title. And if he didn't join Kyrie (allstar game mvp the season before) and the guy who outplayed Curry in the finals he wouldn't have a title either.
Exactly, that's how the game is played, everyone would be title-less :banana:

[tpols]

The only reason Robert Parish is HOF is because he played with larry bird & the C's... put him on the 90s sonics, suns, blazers, etc. hes not even close to HOF.

[And1AllDay]

http://www.sbnationradio.com/robert-parish-jordan-isnt-greatest-time-didnt-beat-great-teams/


Agree or disagree?

Agreed all wins were sloppy weak teams

[3ball]

Lebron never beat b2b champs, or any team with the HOF and all-star experience as the bad boys (3 HOF and 3x all-stars at every starting spot)

That alone kills the argument, but then there's this:

50-win teams eliminated in the Playoffs

Kobe: 25
Jordan: 20
Duncan: 20
Shaq: 18
Kareem: 14
Magic: 13

Lebron: 11



500 or worse teams faced in the Playoffs

LeBron: 7
Jordan: 2
Duncan: 1
Kobe: 0

LeBron gets cakewalks to the Finals every year in the East

[And1AllDay]

Lebron never beat b2b champs, or any team with the HOF and all-star experience as the bad boys (3 HOF and 3x all-stars at every starting spot)

That alone kills the argument, but then there's this:

50-win teams eliminated in the Playoffs

Kobe: 25
Jordan: 20
Duncan: 20
Shaq: 18
Kareem: 14
Magic: 13

Lebron: 11



500 or worse teams faced in the Playoffs

LeBron: 7
Jordan: 2
Duncan: 1
Kobe: 0

LeBron gets cakewalks to the Finals every year in the East


Mike when he saw who he was facing in the Finals every year

91 Lakers with Aids Magic and no Kareem, injured worthy
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

92 Blazers no need to add more here
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

93 Suns good win I can give some credit here

94 Baseball

95 Shaq'd

96 Super Sonics um...2nd round beast team at best
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

97 Jazz never won anything
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

98 10 ppg Hornacek as second option
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

[kennethgriffen]

if jordan was never in the nba how great would these teams have looked


1991 finals: Lakers vs Pistons ( lakers probably win this... so if magic is a 6 time champion and finals mvp without kareem then he likely gets vaulted ahead of cap. but since jordan won it means the lakers were garbage without kareem )

1992 finals: blazers vs cavs ( blazers probably win this... so drexler is a finals mvp and never gets branded a ring chaser with houston to destroy his career. probably ends up in the top 20 all time )

1993 finals: Suns vs Knicks ( barkley gets his ring/fmvp and is top 15 all time easly )


1995 finals: Orlando vs sanantonio ( no drexler ring chasing means the spurs likely make it instead.. or maybe even phoenix... then robinson gets a much needed finals mvp or barkley gets a 2nd )

1996 finals: Orlando vs seattle ( seattle likely wins and payton or kemps careers vastly improve all time )

1997 finals: miami vs Utah ( jazz win and malone gets finals mvp )

1998 finals: indiana vs Utah ( jazz win again and malones finals mvp for a 2nd time )




the jazz, suns, seattle, portland all become some kind of historic teams and malone/barkley are fringe top 10 players all time right now... robinson is top 15. drexler is top 20, magic is arguable goat... all these teams and players are infinitely greater



except mj beat all of them and snuffed out their careers or damaged them greatly



so if jordan never existed they're great. but since jordan existed they're not....



if only jordan choked a few finals or quit a couple/get his ass handed to him like lebron. then his competition would have been all time great

:lol

[Manny98]

if jordan was never in the nba how great would these teams have looked


1991 finals: Lakers vs Pistons ( lakers probably win this... so if magic is a 6 time champion and finals mvp without kareem then he likely gets vaulted ahead of cap. but since jordan won it means the lakers were garbage without kareem )

1992 finals: blazers vs cavs ( blazers probably win this... so drexler is a finals mvp and never gets branded a ring chaser with houston to destroy his career. probably ends up in the top 20 all time )

1993 finals: Suns vs Knicks ( barkley gets his ring/fmvp and is top 15 all time easly )


1995 finals: Orlando vs sanantonio ( no drexler ring chasing means the spurs likely make it instead.. or maybe even phoenix... then robinson gets a much needed finals mvp or barkley gets a 2nd )

1996 finals: Orlando vs seattle ( seattle likely wins and payton or kemps careers vastly improve all time )

1997 finals: miami vs Utah ( jazz win and malone gets finals mvp )

1998 finals: indiana vs Utah ( jazz win again and malones finals mvp for a 2nd time )




the jazz, suns, seattle, portland all become some kind of historic teams and malone/barkley are fringe top 10 players all time right now... robinson is top 15. drexler is top 20, magic is arguable goat... all these teams and players are infinitely greater



except mj beat all of them and snuffed out their careers or damaged them greatly



so if jordan never existed they're great. but since jordan existed they're not....



if only jordan choked a few finals or quit a couple/get his ass handed to him like lebron. then his competition would have been all time great

:lol
If LeBron didn't exist that OKC team with KD,Russ,Harden would have won 8+ championships together and would have gone down as the greatest dynasty ever

[kennethgriffen]

If LeBron never colluded/ring chased that OKC team with KD,Russ,Harden would have won 8+ championships together and would have gone down as the greatest dynasty ever


fixed

:lol

[Phoenix]

I'd sooner accept that sentiment from Magic, or Bird( even thought both played with greater talent overall than MJ did). But Robert Parish?! Chief was a key contributor on those Celtics teams, but he ain't the one to deliver that message whether accurate or otherwise.

[Hey Yo]

Multiple rings, and

Kevin Love 67.6% (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html) HOF probability

So Lebron had 2 HOF teammates
What was his HOF probability after posting 8-7 on 36% shooting?

Why did Cleveland blow out GS by 30 with Love coming off the bench in favor of grandpa Jefferson?

[SpaceJam2]

Mike when he saw who he was facing in the Finals every year

91 Lakers with Aids Magic and no Kareem, injured worthy
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

92 Blazers no need to add more here
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

93 Suns good win I can give some credit here

94 Baseball

95 Shaq'd

96 Super Sonics um...2nd round beast team at best
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

97 Jazz never won anything
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

98 10 ppg Hornacek as second option
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

Wow is this true? Paging 2ball please.

[Hey Yo]

What was his HOF probability after posting 8-7 on 36% shooting?

Why did Cleveland blow out GS by 30 with Love coming off the bench in favor of grandpa Jefferson?
3crickets nowhere to be found

[3ball]

Wow is this true? Paging 2ball please.
I'm not responding to and1's opinion on how good certain teams are

If you guys have an actual point to make substantiated by fact, then I'll respond .

But just random shit like "well, the sonics were a 2nd round team at best", without any backup i.e. "they won the same as a 2nd round team"... or something like that, then forget it

MJ fam wins if that's all you got.. I mean heck - I don't blame you guys for having nothing.. your guy just missed the damn playoffs and shut it down.. Playoff mode activated doh!!!.. LeFraud

[Shaquille O'Neal]

if jordan was never in the nba how great would these teams have looked


1991 finals: Lakers vs Pistons ( lakers probably win this... so if magic is a 6 time champion and finals mvp without kareem then he likely gets vaulted ahead of cap. but since jordan won it means the lakers were garbage without kareem )

1992 finals: blazers vs cavs ( blazers probably win this... so drexler is a finals mvp and never gets branded a ring chaser with houston to destroy his career. probably ends up in the top 20 all time )

1993 finals: Suns vs Knicks ( barkley gets his ring/fmvp and is top 15 all time easly )


1995 finals: Orlando vs sanantonio ( no drexler ring chasing means the spurs likely make it instead.. or maybe even phoenix... then robinson gets a much needed finals mvp or barkley gets a 2nd )

1996 finals: Orlando vs seattle ( seattle likely wins and payton or kemps careers vastly improve all time )

1997 finals: miami vs Utah ( jazz win and malone gets finals mvp )

1998 finals: indiana vs Utah ( jazz win again and malones finals mvp for a 2nd time )




the jazz, suns, seattle, portland all become some kind of historic teams and malone/barkley are fringe top 10 players all time right now... robinson is top 15. drexler is top 20, magic is arguable goat... all these teams and players are infinitely greater



except mj beat all of them and snuffed out their careers or damaged them greatly



so if jordan never existed they're great. but since jordan existed they're not....



if only jordan choked a few finals or quit a couple/get his ass handed to him like lebron. then his competition would have been all time great

:lol :applause::applause::applause:

[FKAri]

Zeke has said the same in the past. Magic jokes about it so much that I'm sure a part of him believes it too. Oscar and a bunch of guys from his era have voiced similar opinions at one point.

These guys are just salty that basketball absolutely took off in the 90s with MJ spearheading it and they, along with their bank accounts weren't along for the ride.

[3ball]

Zeke has said the same in the past. Magic jokes about it so much that I'm sure a part of him believes it too. Oscar and a bunch of guys from his era have voiced similar opinions at one point.

These guys are just salty that basketball absolutely took off in the 90s with MJ spearheading it and they, along with their bank accounts weren't along for the ride.

Zeke and Magic said that if you removed Magic, Zeke and MJ from their teams, the Pistons/Lakers would demolish the bulls - this was during the 93' Finals:



"We had more weapons.... Get me in foul trouble, and get Michael in foul trouble, and take us both out, and you'd see what would happen - we would dominate them."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s




"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakeers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)."


So they concede that MJ's cast was way worse and he won with less

[SpaceJam2]

I'm not responding to and1's opinion on how good certain teams are

If you guys have an actual point to make substantiated by fact, then I'll respond .

But just random shit like "well, the sonics were a 2nd round team at best", without any backup i.e. "they won the same as a 2nd round team"... or something like that, then forget it

MJ fam wins if that's all you got.. I mean heck - I don't blame you guys for having nothing.. your guy just missed the damn playoffs and shut it down.. Playoff mode activated doh!!!.. LeFraud

Uhhh there was thread about it and I know you saw it. The Seattle Soupercans made it out the second round once during their "great dynasty" run with Payton and Kemp...

Once. Out of the second round.

Jordan had free reign to beat up on 6'2 guards as soon as Bird and Magic and Thomas got old (he had losing records against all 3 by the way). Wow, what a legend :applause: :lol

[3ball]

Once. Out of the second round.

:lol
Twice in 93' and 96'.. so more lies from you and sdot

Not that it matters.. when a team peaks, that peak can be higher than a championship season of a dynasty

The 90's West was stacked with goat parity - the teams that emerged from those bloodbaths were having their banner year, and those peaks were every bit as high as any spurs peak (93' suns, 96' sonics, 98' jazz)

Just look at who those teams beat - the sonics ended Hakeem's b2b team; the jazz beat Duncan/Pop's 56 win team and the most talented team Shaq ever had

[AirBonner]

Twice in 93' and 96'

Not that it matters.. when a team peaks, that peak can be higher than a championship season of a dynasty

The 90's West was stacked with goat parity - the teams that emerged from those bloodbaths were having their banner year, and those peaks were every bit as high as any spurs peak (93' suns, 96' sonics, 98' jazz)

Just look at who those teams beat - the sonics ended Hakeem's b2b team; the jazz beat Duncan/Pop's 56 win team and the most talented team Shaq ever had

3-4 juggernauts beating up on each other - the team that hademerging would team would emerge and take their turn losing to MJ in the Finals
Robert Parish played in the nba. His opinion is much more valuable than yours

[FKAri]

Zeke and Magic said that if you removed Magic, Zeke and MJ from their teams, the Pistons/Lakers would demolish the bulls - this was during the 93' Finals:



"We had more weapons.... Get me in foul trouble, and get Michael in foul trouble, and take us both out, and you'd see what would happen - we would dominate them."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s




"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakeers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)."


So they concede that MJ's cast was way worse and he won with less
I haven't heard it in a while but there was a time when Magic would repeatedly "joke" about how, you can't touch MJ, you can't put a hand on em, everything's a foul, and how he gets special favors, etc. It always seemed to come from a shade of truth even if he was joking. Isiah straight up believes that shit tho but he keeps his mouth shut now cuz he doesn't want to be ostracized. Isiah's also kinda crazy in general tho. He is nothing like his public persona.

[SpaceJam2]

I haven't heard it in a while but there was a time when Magic would repeatedly "joke" about how, you can't touch MJ, you can't put a hand on em, everything's a foul, and how he gets special favors, etc. It always seemed to come from a shade of truth even if he was joking. Isiah straight up believes that shit tho but he keeps his mouth shut now cuz he doesn't want to be ostracized. Isiah's also kinda crazy in general tho. He is nothing like his public persona.

Dead on, on both accounts.

[3ball]

I haven't heard it in a while but there was a time when Magic would repeatedly "joke" about how, you can't touch MJ, you can't put a hand on em, everything's a foul, and how he gets special favors, etc. It always seemed to come from a shade of truth even if he was joking. Isiah straight up believes that shit tho but he keeps his mouth shut now cuz he doesn't want to be ostracized. Isiah's also kinda crazy in general tho. He is nothing like his public persona.
Well, that shit is true, although not the special favor part.

I've watched a lot of MJ and he got shit tons of calls

Touch fouls.. ticky tack.. the occasional phantom

With all that being said, there's an equal number of no-call where he converts a shot after hanging forever, but no call despite a hack... or simply gets clobbered and the refs let it go

And of course, there's levels to this shit - many no-calls back then are automatic fouls today.. nothing compares to harden and today's rules in general..

Ultimately, the aggressor gets the calls - that's how sports works.. harden and MJ are the most aggressive and the best offensive players, so they should get the most calls - they're just that hard to stop

But if you think MJ had it easy, I recommend this video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Ql2FhLbAs&t=01m20s
.

[FKAri]

Well, that shit is true, although not the special favor part.

I've watched a lot of MJ and he got shit tons of calls

Touch fouls.. ticky tack.. the occasional phantom

With all that being said, there's an equal number of no-call where he converts a shot after hanging forever, but no call despite a hack... or simply gets clobbered and the refs let it go

And of course, there's levels to this shit - nothing compares to harden and today's rules in general..

Ultimately, the aggressor gets the calls - that's how sports works.. harden and MJ are the most aggressive and the best offensive players, so they should get the most calls - they're just that hard to stop
.
I'm not saying it's true. I'm saying I think Magic believes it to an extent.

[3ball]

I'm not saying it's true. I'm saying I think Magic believes it to an extent.
I've been a ref before and it's super hard

I don't think refs were purposely giving MJ calls.. I do think mj's aggressiveness and skill got him a lot of calls that other guys didn't get

i.e. no one jab-stepped like MJ or had pivot foot movement like MJ, so he'd get a lot of ticky tack calls by manipulating defenders that were too close.. he'd bait and trick guys into reaching or being too aggressive.. and his quick moves upon the catch/ability to shred defenders quickly had opponents jumpy and pannicky, often picking up dumb fouls

But despite MJ's tricks, no one caught harder fouls than MJ either - the physicality was on another level - almost a different sport entirely from today's spaced-out dance routine:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Ql2FhLbAs&t=01m20s

[And1AllDay]

I've been a ref before and it's super hard

I don't think refs were purposely giving MJ calls.. I do think mj's aggressiveness and skill got him a lot of calls that other guys didn't get

i.e. no one jab-stepped like MJ or had pivot foot movement like MJ, so he'd get a lot of ticky tack calls by manipulating defenders that were too close.. he'd bait and trick guys into reaching or being too aggressive.. and his quick moves upon the catch/ability to shred defenders quickly had opponents jumpy and pannicky, often picking up dumb fouls

But despite MJ's tricks, no one caught harder fouls than MJ either - the physicality was on another level - almost a different sport entirely from today's spaced-out dance routine:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Ql2FhLbAs&t=01m20s

Was that video used to hurt your argument becos thats what it did