Where would you put LeBron James on the all time list? Honest answers, please.

[elementally morale]

Weigthed average after 35 votes in number 8.


Guys. Try being realistic. We would really like to know what this board thinks. Hyperbole is for other threads. Thank you.


Where would you put LeBron James on the all time list?

I voted top 10. The same I said a year ago or 3 years ago. I thought he could get into my top 5 later on. I doubt it now. Where do you have him?

[Overdrive]

Top 5 and descending. The only thing that seperates him from Shaq, Duncan et al is number of MVPs and he was the media darling from highschool on.

[FKAri]

Top 5 and descending. The only thing that seperates him from Shaq, Duncan et al is number of MVPs and he was the media darling from highschool on.
Shaq and Duncan have reasonable arguments over anyone from the last 35 years not named MJ.

[the mesiah]

Top 10 for sure , maybe top 8 but no way top 5 ..

[zeerghit]

3-6 for me

[baudkarma]

I've got LeBron at #2, behind MJ.

[red1]

I had him top-5.

After single-handedly dismantling the lakers franchise he moves up to a firm #2 all-time.

[3ball]

Traditional bigs have proven obsolete and generally need more help than goat wings

So I put goat wings over goat bigs

And I put MJ/Kobe over everyone because their goat scoring versatility made them easiest to build around - only Kobe/MJ won multiple rings with 1 all-star teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe) and hakeem (when MJ was out of league)

Here's my rankings in order - MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Mikan

I feel very good about these rankings

[SouBeachTalents]

Traditional bigs have proven obsolete and generally need more help than goat wings

So I put goat wings over goat bigs

And I put MJ/Kobe over everyone because their goat scoring versatility made them easiest to build around - only Kobe/MJ won multiple rings with 1 all-star teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe) and hakeem (when MJ was out of league)

Here's my rankings in order - MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Mikan

I feel very good about these rankings
Kobe 2nd all time :oldlol: And what justification puts Bird 3rd all time & LeBron out the top 10

[3ball]

Kobe 2nd all time :oldlol: And what justification puts Bird 3rd all time & LeBron out the top 10
I justified MJ/Kobe at the top quite succinctly:

their goat scoring versatility made them easiest to build around - only Kobe/MJ won multiple rings with 1 all-star teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe) and hakeem (when MJ was out of league)

:confusedshrug:


And of course, goat wings over goat bigs, so bird/magic over wilt/kaj, etc.. btw, bird over magic is a personal preference for his scoring, and also his status as the goat shooter/passer/rebounder

So my rankings are quite solid and justified well:

MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Mikan

[fileman1209]

#2 to MJ

[kennethgriffen]

not top 15


this year exposed him pretty hard


i rank these guys ahead of him



#1 Kareem/jordan/russell

#4 Kobe/Duncan/Magic

#7 Shaq/Bird/Wilt/Hakeem

#11 Oscar/West/Moses/Dr J

#15 Garnett/Pettit/Mikan

#18 Lebron/Durant/Baylor

[hold this L]

I had him top-5.

After single-handedly dismantling the lakers franchise he moves up to a firm #2 all-time.
:lol

amazing answer

[elementally morale]

Weigthed avreage after 24 votes in number 8.

[Ben Simmons 25]

He’s top 5 and if/when he gets the all time scoring title, especially if he’s able to squeeze out another ring, he will probably be top 3.

He’d probably be on his way to another MVP this year if he hadn’t gotten hurt.

All time rankings are a combination of accomplishments and peak play/sustained prime play... he’s not going to suddenly be a better player in 4 or 5 years but his accomplishments may or may not push him higher.

We’ve seen the best of him already... he can’t go down anyone’s list that isn’t a moron.

[zizozain]

Oscar, Isiah Thomas,Moses, and Dr J >> lebron

not top 15 ... Honest answer

[Ben Simmons 25]

Oscar, Isiah Thomas,Moses, and Dr J >> lebron

not top 15 ... Honest answer

Look I’m not trying to be a dick but you’re a bit of a moron if you honestly believe gun to your head sure that LeBron isn’t one of the 15 best basketball players of all time...

Like you’re either legitimately a borderline moron or your Kobe/Lakers bias has been so incredibly deep for so long that you can’t put together a rational thought...

You can’t find a single player, GM, coach, scout or media member that will honestly tell you in their heart of hearts that he isn’t top 15.

[Mask the Embiid]

goat man! goat man!....goat man! goat man!

[PP34Deuce]

Lebron is Top 5-7. I think most ATG's rank him there.

[elementally morale]

Weigthed avreage after 30 votes in number 9.


GOAT: 4 votes for 4 points (each vote 1 point)
TOP 3: 2 votes for 4 points (each vote 2 points... top 3 --> avg: 2)
Top 5: 7 votes for 28 points (each vote 4 points... top 5 but not top 3 --> avg:4 etcetc.)
Top 10: 5 votes for 40 points
Top 15: 4 votes for 52 points
Not top 15: 8 votes for 144 points


Total points: 272
Total answers: 30

Average: 9,07

[Doranku]

If he quits on this Laker team and ends up sitting out a good portion of the rest of this season with another "injury", he's outta my top 5.

[elementally morale]

Average after 35 votes is number 8.

[sdot_thadon]

Top 3 without a doubt with a solid case for goat.

On a side note i see people here say someone moves down their list. How is that logically possible? You move up through accomplishments and move down only by virtue of being surpassed, that's the way things always worked i thought.....You Can't un-accomplish something :oldlol:

[elementally morale]

Top 3 without a doubt with a solid case for goat.

On a side note i see people here say someone moves down their list. How is that logically possible? You move up through accomplishments and move down only by virtue of being surpassed, that's the way things always worked i thought.....You Can't un-accomplish something :oldlol:


But it happens all the time.

Shaq is losing ground for example. And no player besides LeBron has a legit case over him in the last 5 years. Still...

[Vino24]

But it happens all the time.

Shaq is losing ground for example. And no player besides LeBron has a legit case over him in the last 5 years. Still...
Only with kobestans it happens

[zizozain]

[QUOTE=Ben Simmons 25]Look I

[eliteballer]

I can

[Vino24]

I have LeBron as the goat. This is coming from a big time Kobe fan. He is 16-6 vs my idol :(

[sdot_thadon]

But it happens all the time.

Shaq is losing ground for example. And no player besides LeBron has a legit case over him in the last 5 years. Still...
i guess it's people being all over the place with these narratives and inconsistency. Russell actually moved up the argument past Wilt 20 years later without playing a single minute, it's ridiculous.

[kennethgriffen]

Average after 35 votes is number 8.


you have to factor in the fact that simons alts voted at least 10+ times


:lol

[elementally morale]

i guess it's people being all over the place with these narratives and inconsistency. Russell actually moved up the argument past Wilt 20 years later without playing a single minute, it's ridiculous.


It's not a problem though. Different times, different people, different values.

The public's perspective of best music, best movie, best whatever changes all the time. And it's not overtaking by newcomers.

Ranking is not fact. It's opinion. Subject to change. You can change your opinion on Larry Bird any time. Why not?

[elementally morale]

you have to factor in the fact that simons alts voted at least 10+ times


:lol


Been there, done that. If I exclude the extremes (GOAT and Not top 15), the result is:

21 votes
147 ponts
average: 7

So this poll is not that skewed.

[FKAri]

It's not a problem though. Different times, different people, different values.

The public's perspective of best music, best movie, best whatever changes all the time. And it's not overtaking by newcomers.

Ranking is not fact. It's opinion. Subject to change. You can change your opinion on Larry Bird any time. Why not?
I've seen Magic sneak past Bird on most people's ranking strictly in the last 20 years. It's nice being in the limelight.

[bigkingsfan]

Been there, done that. If I exclude the extremes (GOAT and Not top 15), the result is:

21 votes
147 ponts
average: 7

So this poll is not that skewed.
Except he's much closer to GOAT than not top 15. So realistically, at worst top 5.

[zeerghit]

Weigthed avreage after 30 votes in number 9.


GOAT: 4 votes for 4 points (each vote 1 point)
TOP 3: 2 votes for 4 points (each vote 2 points... top 3 --> avg: 2)
Top 5: 7 votes for 28 points (each vote 4 points... top 5 but not top 3 --> avg:4 etcetc.)
Top 10: 5 votes for 40 points
Top 15: 4 votes for 52 points
Not top 15: 8 votes for 144 points


Total points: 272
Total answers: 30

Average: 9,07
ur counting doesnt make any sense, show me any real article who ranked lebron outside top10, than ill be ok with that.

[elementally morale]

Except he's much closer to GOAT than not top 15. So realistically, at worst top 5.


In a day or two when this vote end... if we have 100 answers I can create a real statistical analysis. At this point, there aren't enough votes for it to be representative.

Yes, I can see your point.

[elementally morale]

ur counting doesnt make any sense, show me any real article who ranked lebron outside top10, than ill be ok with that.


It's pretty damn simple math. Based on votes being cast in this thread. It will not mirror any 'article' and it shouldn't. We want to know what this board thinks not what a certain media outlet pushes.

[zeerghit]

It's pretty damn simple math. Based on votes being cast on in this thread. It will not mirror any 'article' and it shouldn't. We want to know what this board thinks not what a certain media outlet pushes.
so u can put lets say top50, numbers is getting inflated, i really dont know is this correct word im saying but i think u get the point?

[AirBonner]

you have to factor in the fact that simons alts voted at least 10+ times


:lol
And vice-versa.

[elementally morale]

so u can put lets say top50, numbers is getting inflated, i really dont know is this correct word im saying but i think u get the point?


Yes. The not top 15 votes are weighted 18 points in the aggregate. If I put it at 16... not much of a change.

From 8.54 to 8.05. And 16 is the minimum value you can set for 'not top 15'.

[elementally morale]

And vice-versa.


Don't worry. I'll give you a detailed analysis. What happens if I exclude this or that. It won't change the outcome as much as you guys think.

The more votes the better.

[elementally morale]

41 votes so far.
Total points 312
Average: 7,6

If GOAT and Not top 15 votes excluded:

25 votes
total points: 161
average. 6,4

[hiphopanonymous]

fringe top 10

[34-24 Footwork]

Firmly anywhere from 7-9 For sure.

The athletic freaks makes everyone's list (Shaq, wilt and etc)

[Da_Realist]

Top 10ish

[elementally morale]

Top 10ish


Same here.

[ImKobe]

He's barely top 10 by ISH's standards, and this is the most pro-Lebron place on the Internet. Big yikes.

[elementally morale]

After 45 votes:

total points: 337
average: 7.5


goat and not top 15 votes excluded:

votes: 29
total points: 186
average: 6.4


So far... LeBron is number 7ish.

[kennethgriffen]

After 45 votes:

total points: 337
average: 7.5


goat and not top 15 votes excluded:

votes: 29
total points: 186
average: 6.4


So far... LeBron is number 7ish.


you act like this is a scientific poll

:lol

[zeerghit]

you act like this is a scientific poll

:lol
every list has lebron in top5, why u so surprised here?

[elementally morale]

you act like this is a scientific poll

:lol


I sure do. All 'opinion' polls are like this. 46 answers aren't enough. Were there 46,000...

[elementally morale]

every list has lebron in top5, why u so surprised here?


And those lists are created by a single person. Or by 5 people. And being pushed down your throat. By 'experts'.

Opinions are opinions. There are no experts on opinions.

[zeerghit]

And those lists are created by a single person. Or by 5 people. And being pushed down your throat. By 'experts'.

Opinions are opinions. There are no experts on opinions.
well so how about realgm? guys really put work in analysis.. is this crap too? or we gonna go with kenneth espn first take poll?
im just saying.. its all good to have ur own opinion, but this site is full of f*cking alts/haters

[3ball]

every list has lebron in top5, why u so surprised here?
Every list (mainstream media) doesn't consider how style of play affects team development and teamwork

So they don't realize that lebron's game is suboptimal (an inadequate substitute for ball movement) and doesn't result in dominant teams, regardless of cast.

The reason his teams were worse than bird/mj etc. is because he sucks compared to them.. their teams would demolish him just like Curry's and Duncan's.. lebron-ball is just inferior, and sucks compared to dynasty brands of ball (ball movement)

[scuzzy]

it's Lebron and Jordan at the top

[zeerghit]

Every list (mainstream media) doesn't consider how style of play affects team development and teamwork

So they don't realize that lebron's game is suboptimal (an inadequate substitute for ball movement) and doesn't result in dominant teams, regardless of cast.

The reason his teams were worse than bird/mj etc. is because he sucks compared to them.. their teams would demolish him just like Curry's and Duncan's.. lebron-ball is just inferior, and sucks compared to dynasty brands of ball (ball movement)
dude dont quote me again, i said u two times i will say u again 3rd time, i will not talk with u, unless u gonna take out that mj dick out of ur mouth, have a nice day.

[Smook A.]

I have him at #3 behind MJ and Kareem

[elementally morale]

well so how about realgm? guys really put work in analysis.. is this crap too? or we gonna go with kenneth espn first take poll?
im just saying.. its all good to have ur own opinion, but this site is full of f*cking alts


Yes, all anonymous polls are skewed. If you have more votes you can filter the data. At 46 votes... you can't really filter.

If you need stats you can always go to basketball reference. All stats are there.

You are here for opinions. What you like can not be measured or quantified.

[3ball]

Look I’m not trying to be a dick but you’re a bit of a moron if you honestly believe gun to your head sure that LeBron isn’t one of the 15 best basketball players of all time...

Like you’re either legitimately a borderline moron or your Kobe/Lakers bias has been so incredibly deep for so long that you can’t put together a rational thought...

You can’t find a single player, GM, coach, scout or media member that will honestly tell you in their heart of hearts that he isn’t top 15.
Kid, one day you'll learn that the facts don't matter.. all that matters is who APPEARED to have won or have the upper hand

Perception is reality

And the reality is that numerous fans think lebron isn't top 10 or 15..........whereas almost NO ONE thinks that of MJ, not even Manny98.

So MJ is goat regardless of even if he isn't.. he just is

[Manny98]

15 people said top 15 and outside that's how you know this forum is trash :roll:

[zeerghit]

15 people said top 15 and outside that's how you know this forum is trash :roll:
it would be nice to know theese better 15 players

[Ben Simmons 25]

Kid, one day you'll learn that the facts don't matter.. all that matters is who APPEARED to have won or have the upper hand

Perception is reality

And the reality is that numerous fans think lebron isn't top 10 or 15..........whereas almost NO ONE thinks that of MJ, not even Manny98.

So MJ is goat regardless of even if he isn't.. he just is

What the **** are you talking about?

I didn’t say anything about LeBron being the goat nor did I say anything about Jordan whatsoever. Not a word to do with anything about Jordan. Nothing.

I said you would have to be a moron not to believe LeBron is a top 15 player of all time... and you would.

Fans are often stupid and emotional and irrational.

The fact remains that you can’t find a single GM, coach or player in NBA history that would tell you LeBron isn’t top 15.

Not one... not a single guy out of thousands of people would tell you that dumb shit, you dumb shit.

[bullettooth]

I got MJ, Magic and Bird as my top 3. Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Kobe and LeBron I don't really care for what order they come in after that. Roughly at 5 for me.

[dbugz]

He's on the 20th-25th range.

[Manny98]

I got MJ, Magic and Bird as my top 3. Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Kobe and LeBron I don't really care for what order they come in after that. Roughly at 5 for me.
Bird and Magic over LeBron lol kill yourself

[jlip]

IMO... Highest possible rank is 4. Lowest possible is 8. So I guess top 5 is reasonable.

[zeerghit]

I got MJ, Magic and Bird as my top 3. Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Kobe and LeBron I don't really care for what order they come in after that. Roughly at 5 for me.
im really surprised that ur list doesnt suck so bad

[Bigrichmac]

Can't vote in the poll, but I have him no.5 with
#1 MJ
#2 BIRD
#3 MAGIC
#4 KOBE

[elementally morale]

After 54 votes:

total points: 391
average: 7.24


goat and not top 15 votes excluded:

votes: 34
total points: 221
average: 6.5


So far... LeBron is still number 7ish.

[ArbitraryWater]

as you can see, ish is an emotional place.

remove the 11 votes saying outside top 15 and maybe you get some semblance of realism :lol (top 3 being universal standard)

[elementally morale]

as you can see, ish is an emotional place.

remove the 11 votes saying outside top 15 and maybe you get some semblance of realism :lol (top 3 being universal standard)


If I remove only those and keep the goat votes (unrealistic but whatever):


44 votes
231 points
average: 5,25

Not that big a change. 6-7 range from ISH votes. Number five at most. Number 8 at worst.

Not a bad poll.

I said top 10ish. Realistically for me... anywhere between 7-11 among players I saw playing (since 1980).

Jordan
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Shaq

All better. That's 6. Now:

Duncan
LeBron
Barkley
Kobe
Erwing


Whichever order I don't care. That's 7th or 11th place for LeBron. And then we have

Russell
Wilt
Oscar

So for LeBron top 10 ish is just fine. On my lists you may argue one player. Barkley. That's it.

[Overdrive]

[QUOTE=Ben Simmons 25]
We

[Celtics 1825]

Top 5 bare minimum. I'd probably put him around 3 or 4 for now, probably locking up the #2 spot after retirement.

[Celtics 1825]

15 people said top 15 and outside that's how you know this forum is trash :roll:
Kenneth's alts don't count :oldlol:

[bullettooth]

im really surprised that ur list doesnt suck so bad

Trolling LeBron ******gers doesn't mean I don't know my basketball.

[bullettooth]

The reality is that accomplishments' novelty wears off after time. Players are only ranked accurately after they're retired.

Jerry West's legacy is pretty bad, so LeBron is going to drop like a rock 10 years from now. All those finals losses on his resume are going to look terrible. He won't be Jerry West level, but he'll likely be ranked closer to Wilt.

[RealSkipBayless]

Fringe top 10.

Media likes to overhype longevity stats. Players/coaches see him for the team hopping quitter that he is.

[90sgoat]

I have him in the top 15 currently, but honestly he might slip if he continues being exposed on the Lakers.

I just don't see much to separate Lebron from guys like Jerry West or Karl Malone.

[Overdrive]

Jerry West's legacy is pretty bad, so LeBron is going to drop like a rock 10 years from now. All those finals losses on his resume are going to look terrible. He won't be Jerry West level, but he'll likely be ranked closer to Wilt.

I don't like Lebron, but the guy has 3 FMVPs and 4 MVPs. Not compareable to West.


so u can put lets say top50, numbers is getting inflated, i really dont know is this correct word im saying but i think u get the point?

No there are things like variance and standard deviation if you have enough data. 1 vote can't skew a poll of 50 votes.

[bullettooth]

I don't like Lebron, but the guy has 3 FMVPs and 4 MVPs. Not compareable to West.

Did you read my full comment?

[elementally morale]

After 63 votes:

total points: 477
average: 7.57


goat and not top 15 votes excluded:

votes: 41
total points: 268
average: 6.54


So far... LeBron is still number 7ish.

[Overdrive]

Did you read my full comment?

Yeah, but how is being in Wilt territory(top 5) dropping like a rock and you made the argument by saying West's legacy is pretty bad.

[kennethgriffen]

After 63 votes:

total points: 477
average: 7.57


goat and not top 15 votes excluded:

votes: 41
total points: 268
average: 6.54


So far... LeBron is still number 7ish.


take away simons votes and he's out of the top 10

:lol

[bullettooth]

Yeah, but how is being in Wilt territory(top 5) dropping like a rock and you made the argument by saying West's legacy is pretty bad.

If you consider LeBron now as #1 (which he's not) or even at #2 which I don't think he is but for the sake of the argument, let's say he is... going from #2 to #5 or so certainly is significant RELATIVE to the first 5-10 spots.

LeBron's legacy WILL take a hit. He won't be remembered as anything but the guy that kept losing but lucked out with a few rings.

Wilt is 2/6
LeBron is 3/9
West is 1/8

He's the best of the three... but that's where he's going to sit when the dust settles.

[Young X]

He is 100% top 5 and possibly top 3.

[sbw19]

An as athlete he's top-5 alltime, skills-wise I'd say top 25. Mentally/intangibles, hard to pinpoint but he's definitely not top-15. I'd rank him 10th alltime.

[elementally morale]

take away simons votes and he's out of the top 10

:lol


Actually, he is not.

If I take away all goat votes and keep the rest the same:

54 votes
482 points
average: 8.93

So 9th.


With all votes counted so far.

65 votes
493 points
average: 7.58


7th or 8th place on ISH. Best is 6th. Worst is 9th.

[PickernRoller]

Top 15 consensus. You could make a case for borderline Top 10 but that's about it.

OP, gotta make the votes public, so we see were everyone stands, not hiding behind that keyboard.

[Leviathon1121]

And here I thought he was the unanimous GOAT...poor Lebron stans, its going downhill quick lately for your guy...

[sdot_thadon]

Kobe was top10 in 2010. Now you guys argue he's #12 and falling. The player who passed him when he was considered 7-10ish? Lebron. 1 guy.

The reality is that accomplishments' novelty wears off after time. Players are only ranked accurately after they're retired.
2 guys had success after 2010 in the arguable top 10. Lebron and Duncan and with that Kobe's place was always polarizing due to the Shaq rings, so in his case it's not much of a surprise is it? Weighing his 2nd option rings always has been a murky task.

[elementally morale]

Top 15 consensus. You could make a case for borderline Top 10 but that's about it.

OP, gotta make the votes public, so we see were everyone stands, not hiding behind that keyboard.


Results are usually more reliable if a vote is anonymous. The investigation for me was about WHAT this board thinks and not WHO thinks what. You do already know that from all the other threads anyway, don't you? I mean.. you know what screennames publicly tell you about their opinions.

These results are... well, interesting.

71 votes
534 points
avg: 7.52

extremes excluded:

47 votes
306 points
avg: 6.51


And the median is top 10ish.

[elementally morale]

2 guys had success after 2010 in the arguable top 10. Lebron and Duncan and with that Kobe's place was always polarizing due to the Shaq rings, so in his case it's not much of a surprise is it? Weighing his 2nd option rings always has been a murky task.


Hakeem kept climbing upwards long after he retired. At his peak years in the NBA him and David Robinson were looked at 1A and 1B at the center position. And for most of their careers Patrick Ewing Was viewed at as a legit 1C.

These days it's hard to imagine... but in 1993... Hakeem was 'a good center'. In 1996 probably a great center. But not top 10 all time material. He became the 'legendary Dream'... I don't know when. But not in 1995. Yes, he overtook Robinson and Ewing with those rings then... but noone was talking about top 15 player ever then.

[PickernRoller]

Results are usually more reliable if a vote is anonymous. The investigation for me was about WHAT this board thinks and not WHO thinks what. You do already know that from all the other threads anyway, don't you? I mean.. you know what screennames publicly tell you about their opinions.

When you have to put your skin (username) on the line, be open to criticism or riducule that's when you know, for real, how committed and how confident you're in your position and opinion. With anonymity you throw objectivity out the table and settle safely on hyperbole - not to mention, you'll never know for sure how significant alt brigading was to the voting results (you can only guess). That's not to say there aren't going to be clowns voting public... but those are already factored in and easy to see. What you want to see is where the more level headed posters fall. That's why public polls are and will always be the best.

I disagree on your take. Hence my threads and way of doing things.

[sdot_thadon]

Hakeem kept climbing upwards long after he retired. At his peak years in the NBA him and David Robinson were looked at 1A and 1B at the center position. And for most of their careers Patrick Ewing Was viewed at as a legit 1C.

These days it's hard to imagine... but in 1993... Hakeem was 'a good center'. In 1996 probably a great center. But not top 10 all time material. He became the 'legendary Dream'... I don't know when. But not in 1995. Yes, he overtook Robinson and Ewing with those rings then... but noone was talking about top 15 player ever then.
in 93 Hakeem was a good center?? That's insane, you do realize that like 4 guys entered the top 10 after his career right? The one guy who got jobbed was Moses. Nobody even mentions him anymore after being considered up there back in those days. But Dream? you gotta be kidding me, I've always had him in the top 10 after that peak he had. Whether or not he was in the lower end to be pushed out 1st is another topic.

You wanna talk about climbing while never playing another game and Russell would be your guy. He's now universally regarded above Wilt though that wasn't the case in the 80s or 90s. The need to validate Jordans goat case with rings had the unintended side effect of elevating Bill's case at the same time.

[elementally morale]

What you want to see is where the more level headed posters fall. That's why public polls are and will always be the best.


I have no problem with that approach. For some ideas I'd prefer public voting myself. That's good for other reasons. At any rate, if you look at the data gathered here you will see this:

One third of the voters think extreme. (goat and not top 15 are extremes)
Roughly half the board thinks LeBron is somewhere in the 4th-11th range. (an avg of 7.5)
The average of all votes is also 7.5

Based on this board LeBron is top 10 but not top 5. If you exclude all votes for goat he is still 9th... so top 10 but not top 5. If you exclude all 'not top 15' votes he is number 6. Still... top 10, not top 5.

That's what we wanted to know. This is in pretty harsh contrast to/with talking heads in the media.

[elementally morale]

in 93 Hakeem was a good center?? That's insane, you do realize that like 4 guys entered the top 10 after his career right? The one guy who got jobbed was Moses.

The way I remember Olajuwon was thought of being very good in 1993 but that's it. He kept rising on these lists long after he retired. His image aged well. Ewings didn't.

You are absolutely right about Moses. But it was over for him by 2000, I think. Ha wasn't much talked about on this board in 2001 either, I'm sure.

[E_Stamkos]

OP is one of the best posters on the board and exudes everything the original ISH Handsome Man wanted to be.

That is all.

[aj1987]

Top 3 quite easily. People voting top 10ish, top 15, and not top 15 should be castrated to prevent them from spreading their idiocy. Not that they have to chance to spread it anyways, but better safe than sorry.

[elementally morale]

Top 3 quite easily. People voting top 10ish, top 15, and not top 15 should be castrated to prevent them from spreading their idiocy. Not that they have to chance to spread it anyways, but better safe than sorry.


Unfortunately, opinions don't work that way. You may have yours others have theirs. You don't need message boards for facts. You need a database.

Yes, if you exclude most everyone who thinks differently you will end up with your opinion as the one and only 'valid' opinion. It's called a bubble. This exactly is the reason why people just don't understand how politicians keep getting elected or TV shows they don't like aired.

[aj1987]

Unfortunately, opinions don't work that way. You may have yours others have theirs. You don't need message boards for facts. You need a database.

Yes, if you exclude most everyone who thinks differently you will end up with your opinion as the one and only 'valid' opinion. It's called a bubble. This exactly is the reason why people just don't understand how politicians keep getting elected or TV shows they don't like aired.
I don't mind if reasonable and rational people have opinions. Just don't care about opinions from mouth breathing morons. Lets say if a person legit believes that LeBron is top 6-8 and has a decent discussion, I wouldn't mind debating that person. However, when people (especially Kobe stans on here) keep spamming the same asinine BS, with zero intelligent thoughts put into their posts, then yeah, they need to be castrated for the betterment of humankind.

I mean, 21 people voted for top 15 and not top 15. I would LOVE to see what their lists are like.

[elementally morale]

I don't mind if reasonable and rational people have opinions. Just don't care about opinions from mouth breathing morons. Lets say if a person legit believes that LeBron is top 6-8 and has a decent discussion, I wouldn't mind debating that person. However, when people (especially Kobe stans on here) keep spamming the same asinine BS, with zero intelligent thoughts put into their posts, then yeah, they need to be castrated for the betterment of humankind.

I mean, 21 people voted for top 15 and not top 15. I would LOVE to see what their lists are like.


And 23 people voted top 3. Something I personally find VERY hard to justify. Half of those people voted number one. Pretty insane, isn't it?

But what can we do? If we can't accept it... then what? Maybe a message board is not for such people who can't accept 'idiots'. Or... you may limit your time spent arguing with them. Or... you may ask: but why?

[elementally morale]

OP is one of the best posters on the board and exudes everything the original ISH Handsome Man wanted to be.

That is all.

:cheers:

Actually, that's a picture of me in my avy from mid 2006. I look even better now... if it is at all possible. :oldlol:

[Springsteen]

Solidly #7 on my list. Could rise or drop over time but I don't think he'll ever fall out of the top ten.

The 3-1/73-9 comeback is probably the height of his career, it's going to look better as time goes on.

[aj1987]

And 23 people voted top 3. Something I personally find VERY hard to justify.

But what can we do? If we can't accept it... then what? Maybe a message board is not for such people who can't accept 'idiots'. Or... you may limit your time spent arguing with them. Or... you may ask: but why?
There's 2 people in the history of the sport with 4 or more MVP's and 3 or more MVP's.

Most All-NBA First teams (will likely end up with most All-NBA selections overall as well).

First player to hit 30k/8k/8k.

Top 5 all time in scoring (will likely end up top 2).

Most points ever in the PO's, top 3 in assists, and top 5 in rebounds.

Incredible career averages at all 3 stages (RS, PO's, and Finals).

Greatest G7 performer of all time.

Greatest elimination game performer of all time.

I could keep going and going. there's pretty much no reason to exclude LeBron from the top 3.

As I said, I wouldn't mind having a debate with a reasonable and rational person like you, but some of the other... lol **** that. It's easier to just call them an idiot and move on. Numerous times, I've actually wasted time typing up a post with actual facts, only for those idiots to retort with "but but lebronze suxxxQ!! :rant :rant ". So yeah..

['Toine=MVP]

Should have made it top 5 ish then clear top 10 or put another choice in between like top 5, 6 or 7 ish then top 10 ish.

Really poor choices.

[elementally morale]

As I said, I wouldn't mind having a debate with a reasonable and rational person like you, but some of the other... lol **** that. It's easier to just call them an idiot and move on. Numerous times, I've actually wasted time typing up a post with actual facts, only for those idiots to retort with "but but lebronze suxxxQ!! :rant :rant ". So yeah..


People aren't rational. You are not. I am not. Nobody is. We have tendencies to rationalize. That's how the brain works. At first you have instincts... then feelings... and then comes the cognitive part. Some people are better at rationalizing and some are better at getting their points across.

And you may call me someone you like to talk to (thanks, I do appreciate it), however, you think LeBron is easily top 3 and I think he is borderline top 10. Both of us know the facts. We both have seen his career. Still, we strongly disagree.

I like it. :rockon:

[elementally morale]

Should have made it top 5 ish then clear top 10 or put another choice in between like top 5, 6 or 7 ish then top 10 ish.

Really poor choices.

Yeah. That's a good point. I realized it myself but it was too late. But it would not change the results greatly. I played with the numbers... and the end result was always between 6-9.

7th or 8th is the consensus here. (Actually, it isn't a consensus. It's the result. But whatever.)

[Marchesk]

It's 38 top 5 and 39 outside the top 5

But if you factor out the alts ...

[FKAri]

He's easily top 5 and probably top 3 of the guys I have seen in my lifetime. So basically Magic/Bird era to now. I haven't seen guys like Russell, Wilt, West, Baylor, Oscar, etc. Even Kareem and Moses I don't feel comfortable evaluating.

So if I were to add a cushion of guys from past eras: top 5 would be my call.

[aj1987]

People aren't rational. You are not. I am not. Nobody is. We have tendencies to rationalize. That's how the brain works. At first you have instincts... then feelings... and then comes the cognitive part. Some people are better at rationalizing and some are better at getting their points across.

And you may call me someone you like to talk to (thanks, I do appreciate it), however, you think LeBron is easily top 3 and I think he is borderline top 10. Both of us know the facts. We both have seen his career. Still, we strongly disagree.

I like it. :rockon:
As I said, we might disagree, but I wouldn't mind having a discussion with you. At least you'll bring in some facts into the argument. That's my point.

[elementally morale]

It's 38 top 5 and 39 outside the top 5

But if you factor out the alts ...


Alts tend to vote goat and not top 15. If not that then top 3 and top 15. If you exclude all these votes... watch out:

All votes:

votes: 78
points: 575
avg: 7.4


goat and not top 15 excluded:

votes: 54
points: 347
avg: 6.4



goat excluded:

votes: 66
points: 563
avg: 8.5


not top 15 excluded:

votes: 66
points: 359
avg: 5.4


It is safe to say the 'real result' is very close to the actual result. 7-8 ish. If you exclude this, a little better if you exclude that, a little worse. Outside the top 5 inside the top 10 either way.

[elementally morale]

As I said, we might disagree, but I wouldn't mind having a discussion with you. At least you'll bring in some facts into the argument. That's my point.


I get it.

But sometimes you don't need facts. Who do you think is the best cook? Well... what do you like to eat? You have a right to form an opinion that you don't want to defend. You don't have to defend it. You may... try. :oldlol: Opinions are opinions because they are not facts. So you can't really prove them.

Or to put it in another way. Your opinion is not factual. Something you strongly believe will not make that belief a fact. However... you do think what you think and this IS a fact. When it comes to opinions the only fact you do have is your opinion being yours.

[SouBeachTalents]

I get it.

But sometimes you don't need facts. Who do you think is the best cook? Well... what do you like to eat? You have a right to form an opinion that you don't want to defend. You don't have to defend it. You may... try. :oldlol: Opinions are opinions because they are not facts. So you can't really prove them.

Or to put it in another way. Your opinion is not factual. Something you strongly believe will not make that belief a fact. However... you do think what you think and this IS a fact. When it comes to opinions the only fact you do have is your opinion being yours.
That's a poor analogy though. Food preference is 100% subjective, with no criteria for what tastes better. While sports can certainly be subjective to an extent, there's definitely more concrete evidence and result based criteria people can use to judge and compare athletes or teams.

You can play devils advocate all you like, but there's no criteria imaginable that could realistically leave LeBron outside of the top 10 of all time.

[elementally morale]

That's a poor analogy though. Food preference is 100% subjective, with no criteria for what tastes better. While sports can certainly be subjective to an extent, there's definitely more concrete evidence and result based criteria people can use to judge and compare athletes or teams.


As for who you think the best is, no such criteria. It's not about most points. Or most rings. Those things are measurable. Best is not.




You can play devils advocate all you like, but there's no criteria imaginable that could realistically leave LeBron outside of the top 10 of all time.


Okay then. So there are some people who by your standards have 'unrealistic opinions'. So what? This is only your opinion. And I may find (I actually do find) this opinion of yours rather unrealistic. Labeling others' opinions unrealistic is not being realistic about what the word opinion means.

I can tell you that there are 'no criteria imaginable' by which you can think LeBron is top 2 all time. And? What does it mean? Nothing. There are people who DO think he is top 2 all time.

[INDI]

I have LeBron currently at 3 behind Jordan and Kareem (and I

[elementally morale]

As the great George Carlin said:

'Do I have a right to my opinion?'
'Yes. But so do I. And my opinion is you don't have a right to your opinion.'

:cheers:

[elementally morale]

By the way the result is getting closer to number 7.

[Mr. Jabbar]

once you take out the alt votes of u know who, we get a weighed average of not top 15 :rockon:

[elementally morale]

once you take out the alt votes of u know who, we get a weighed average of not top 15 :rockon:


If you exclude the extremes it never gets worse than number 9. And never better than number 6. It is what it is. Top 10, not top 5.

[sdot_thadon]

In order to buy a borderline top 10 or not top 15 type of ranking I'd really have to see your top 10 and discuss it with you to see if you stay consistent throughout. Most "lists" get too cute with criteria and end up stepping on their own feet. For the record i can't fathom Lebron being simply borderline top 10.

[SouBeachTalents]

As for who you think the best is, no such criteria. It's not about most points. Or most rings. Those things are measurable. Best is not.






Okay then. So there are some people who by your standards have 'unrealistic opinions'. So what? This is only your opinion. And I may find (I actually do find) this opinion of yours rather unrealistic. Labeling others' opinions unrealistic is not being realistic about what the word opinion means.

I can tell you that there are 'no criteria imaginable' by which you can think LeBron is top 2 all time. And? What does it mean? Nothing. There are people who DO think he is top 2 all time.
I 100% disagree with you. People can have whatever opinion they want, they can think Jordan wasn't a top 50 player of all time, that Kwame Brown was more dominant than Shaq, that Ben Simmons is a bigger 3 point threat than Curry; doesn't change the fact that all empirical evidence would point to them being wrong

[diamenz]

four inches erect, but consistently rock hard.

[ImKobe]

About 90,000 people voted on ESPN, and it was 60% Kobe vs 40% Lebron in 2017, Kobe dominated the Facebook poll as well. If Kobe's 12th all-time, there's no way Lebron's actually top 10.

[TheCorporation]

How can you have "honest answers" and "outside of top 15" in the same sentence...Sheesh. So dumb.

[elementally morale]

I 100% disagree with you. People can have whatever opinion they want, they can think Jordan wasn't a top 50 player of all time, that Kwame Brown was more dominant than Shaq, that Ben Simmons is a bigger 3 point threat than Curry; doesn't change the fact that all empirical evidence would point to them being wrong


People... actually most people believe in God. They are of the opinion that God exists (or existed) created (and governs) the Universe.

Is believing in God realistic or unrealistic in your opinion?

[elementally morale]

In order to buy a borderline top 10 or not top 15 type of ranking I'd really have to see your top 10 and discuss it with you to see if you stay consistent throughout. Most "lists" get too cute with criteria and end up stepping on their own feet. For the record i can't fathom Lebron being simply borderline top 10.


I gave you my reasons in this thread in post number 71.

[TheCorporation]

I gave you my reasons in this thread in post number 71.

No.

How can you have "honest answers" and "outside of top 15" in the same sentence...Sheesh. So dumb.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Top 5 for sure ... and in that or just below Magic / Bird class

[SouBeachTalents]

People... actually most people believe in God. They are of the opinion that God exists (or existed) created (and governs) the Universe.

Is believing in God realistic or unrealistic in your opinion?
That's a question that definitely deserves a longer answer than what I'm going to give, but to summarize it semi briefly, I find it very unrealistic to believe in god. There's absolutely no evidence to support the claim, it's an ancient belief from thousands of years ago, back in a time where people didn't have access to the information we now have to help explain the world around us. It's reminiscent to believing back then that the earth was flat (in b4 Kyrie) or that the sun revolved around us and the earth was the center of the universe. The reason I think it's sustained all these years is because it's profitable to promote that belief, and it genuinely does provide comfort to people.

So I don't judge, if you believe in god that's your right, but in my opinion, especially in this day & age, with all the information we have access to, I don't see why believing in god should have any more validity than believing in santa or the tooth fairy.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

[elementally morale]

That's a question that definitely deserves a longer answer than what I'm going to give, but to summarize it semi briefly, I find it very unrealistic to believe in god. There's absolutely no evidence to support the claim, it's an ancient belief from thousands of years ago, back in a time where people didn't have access to the information we now have to help explain the world around us. It's reminiscent to believing back then that the earth was flat (in b4 Kyrie) or that the sun revolved around us and the earth was the center of the universe. The reason I think it's sustained all these years is because it's profitable to promote that belief, and it genuinely does provide comfort to people.

So I don't judge, if you believe in god that's your right, but in my opinion, especially in this day & age, with all the information we have access to, I don't see why believing in god should have any more validity than believing in santa or the tooth fairy.

What are your thoughts on the matter?


My thoughts are rather complex and lead us through quantum mechanics and taoism. (I'm not kidding.) So I'm not going there now. I'm not religious. Faith in *something* is different... but it is besides the point I was trying to make.

You personally do not believe in God. Fine. But you do know that lots of people do. The vast majority of people do, actually. Believing in God is not any more reasonable than believing LeBron James is not a top 10 player. Some people think so.


When you are getting closer and closer to something extreme there will be fewer and fewer believers. But there will be a few, still. You will find somebody somewhere who will say Kobe Bryant is a better 3 point shooter than Steph Curry... he was just guarded differently, was unlucky, too many bailout shots, etc. There won't be many such people but there will be some.


Why did I not include the 'LeBron is not even top 100' option? See above, that's why. I decided 'not top 15' is extreme enough. I find not even top 15 as extreme as goat. And I was the one creating the poll... so my opinion counts. :oldlol:

[Big164]

My Top 15


#1: MJ

#2-4: Chamberlain, Russell, Curry

#5: Kareem

#6-8: Shaq, Magic, Mikan

#9-15: Bird, Duncan, KD, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, West

[Gileraracer]

Top 15 AT BEST.

[elementally morale]

My Top 15

#1: MJ
#2-4: Chamberlain, Russell, Curry
#5: Kareem
#6-8: Shaq, Magic, Mikan
#9-15: Bird, Duncan, KD, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, West


I'm all for opinions and everything... but Curry over Kareem is... mhmmm... what's the idea behind it?

[elementally morale]

At the moment:

90 votes
677 points
avg: 7.52



without extremes (goat and not top 15)

63 votes
429 points
avg: 6.81

LeBron is 7-8 ish per ISH

[knicksman]

As I said, we might disagree, but I wouldn't mind having a discussion with you. At least you'll bring in some facts into the argument. That's my point.


AJ, facts are easy and not all people are simpletons like you. We want to dig deeper. We seek challenges so we analyze whats behind those facts coz thats where the fun is. Coz if facts is all we need, then why bother debating. Everyone will arrive at the same conclusion.

[masonanddixon]

He's somewhere in the 50-100 range, closer to 100. Multiple Finals defeats in devastating fashion and the fact he never won a ring as the best player are reasons he isn't any higher.

[Akeem34TheDream]

He's somewhere in the 50-100 range, closer to 100. Multiple Finals defeats in devastating fashion and the fact he never won a ring as the best player are reasons he isn't any higher.
Congrats tbh. This comment was so stupid and toxic that it ended the thread.

[elementally morale]

Congrats tbh. This comment was so stupid and toxic that it ended the thread.

Until now. :)

[Da_Realist]

In order to buy a borderline top 10 or not top 15 type of ranking I'd really have to see your top 10 and discuss it with you to see if you stay consistent throughout. Most "lists" get too cute with criteria and end up stepping on their own feet. For the record i can't fathom Lebron being simply borderline top 10.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan are the guys I'd take over LeBron without thinking about it at all.

Guys like Oscar, Kobe, David Robinson, Isiah Thomas, Jerry West are all in the same vicinity. I don't put much stock in today's stats because the league is soft. I believe if you give these guys the green light to switch franchises as they see fit, a front office willing to move any and everybody by the trading deadline if these guys aren't happy, a super soft conference to dominate every year and a teflon coating that deflects any blame for anything, these guys would be just or more successful as LeBron has been in their own way.

I don't know where guys like Elgin Baylor, Bob Petite stand. I don't know much about them but they can't be too far behind.

Guys like Wade, Durant, Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Drexler, Dirk, Garnett, Barkley, Pippen, Moses Malone aren't that far behind, if at all.

They can't out-Lebron James Lebron James. They may not lead their team in every category (which has some negative consequences that are rarely spoken about) but I think they'd be just as successful if not more so in their own way if given similar circumstances.

[elementally morale]

Statistically speaking, we have a very nice distribution of votes. Deleting votes in a category doesn't change the average by more than 1.8 Deleting pairs of categories (extremes and then closer to the middle, etc.) doesn't change the average by more than 1.


Which means the results are pretty good in terms of reflecting the average voter.

After 92 votes, 698 points and an average of 7.6

It is reliable.

[Bankaii]

This forum has somehow gotten worst:oldlol:

Someone please list 10 players with a better career than Lebron, while maintaining consistency and some rationale.

While I personally don

[elementally morale]

[QUOTE=Bankaii]This forum has somehow gotten worst:oldlol:

Someone please list 10 players with a better career than Lebron, while maintaining consistency and some rationale.

While I personally don

[Bankaii]

Some of us already posted what you ask for. Read before you type.

On another note, nothing voids an opinion based voting. Just because you think something is not valid... that's an opinion, too. In this case, yours.

You can change the outcome exactly one way: via voting.
You took out 2 categories, both unrealistic, and averaged it out.
You didn

[elementally morale]

You took out 2 categories, both unrealistic, and averaged it out.
You didn’t weigh anything, at least not from the skimming I did, nor did you factor in the fact that saying Lebron is top 15 or top 10ish is just as asinine as saying he’s GOAT.

That’s what voids your shitty poll.


You are not a science guy, are you? :oldlol:

Most people chose the top 10ish option. You want to take away that option because you don't like it. Well... it doesn't work that way. Most people chose something you don't like... so it's invalid. LOL

Bye.

[3ball]

You took out 2 categories, both unrealistic, and averaged it out.
You didn’t weigh anything, at least not from the skimming I did, nor did you factor in the fact that saying Lebron is top 15 or top 10ish is just as asinine as saying he’s GOAT.

That’s what voids your shitty poll.
What if lebron stayed in Cleveland his whole career and had zero rings right now

He'd have a small statistical edge over guys like Malone or Dirk, but no case otherwise, and he'd be behind bird and Duncan by healthy margin

But even with the team-hopping - the same fate would've happened if ray and kyrie missed those legacy-saving shots instead of making them

And that's without considering all his flaws.. i.e. no clutch for the majority of his career, crushes teammates, non-goat offenses, hard to build around his ball-dominance skillset, etc, etc

So no, it's real easy to put lebron outside the top 15

[Bankaii]

You are not a science guy, are you? :oldlol:

Most people chose the top 10ish option. You want to take away that option because you don't like it. Well... it doesn't work that way. Most people chose something you don't like... so it's invalid. LOL

Bye.
A science guy?:oldlol: You made a poll that already had unrealistic options. You keep crying about opinions but an opinion with no factual backing whatsoever isn

[elementally morale]

A science guy?:oldlol: You made a poll that already had unrealistic options. You keep crying about opinions but an opinion with no factual backing whatsoever isn’t an opinion, it’s bullshit.

I can make a legitimate argue for Lebron being top 3. Do the same for Lebron being top 10ish (9-11) I assume, or better yet, top 15. Go ahead and try to explain 15 guys over Lebron. I’ll wait.



See post number 71. I already did it. Others, too. Read before you type.

You don't understand what the word 'opinion' means. You have a problem.

An opinion is an opinion without any backing. You may find it a stupid opinion... that's fine. But still an opinion. It is worth the same as your opinion. 1 vote.

That's how opinion based elections work. More than half of all voters think LeBron is top 10ish or worse. You want to say it is not valid. It is though. According to the majority.

['Toine=MVP]

I think below Top 10ish is about as bad as #1. So doing some math here...

To get a representative vote, we need to take all the #1 votes and move them down to the Top 3 category and take everything below Top 10ish and move it up to that category.

There are an adjusted 27 votes for Top 3 (which really means 2 or 3 all time).

27*2.5 = 67.5 points

There are 17 votes for Top 5 (which really means 4 or 5 all time since it isn't top 3).

17*4.5 = 76.5 points

There are an adjusted 50 votes for Top 10ish. Obviously 6-10 count in the top 10, and let's say it extends down to #12 before crossing into the Top 15 category, for an average of 9.

50*9 = 450 points

594 total points divided by 94 voters = 6.31 points (rounded to 6th all time)

This is probably a fair consensus of his rank.

[TheCorporation]

What a worthless, flawed poll. The fact "outside of top 15" is an option is proof enough. Not to mention what sort of numeric ranking do you give for "top 10ish" :lol

Ugh what a waste of time :facepalm

[elementally morale]

I think below Top 10ish is about as bad as #1. So doing some math here...

To get a representative vote, we need to take all the #1 votes and move them down to the Top 3 category and take everything below Top 10ish and move it up to that category.

There are an adjusted 27 votes for Top 3 (which really means 2 or 3 all time).

27*2.5 = 67.5 points

There are 17 votes for Top 5 (which really means 4 or 5 all time since it isn't top 3).

17*4.5 = 76.5 points

There are an adjusted 50 votes for Top 10ish. Obviously 6-10 count in the top 10, and let's say it extends down to #12 before crossing into the Top 15 category, for an average of 9.

50*9 = 450 points

594 total points divided by 94 voters = 6.31 points (rounded to 6th all time)

This is probably a fair consensus of his rank.


Either way you put it it never gets better than 6 and never worse than 9. A said it a few times. I tried all these myself. :)

So the verdict is: top 10, not top 5.

[TheCorporation]

I think below Top 10ish is about as bad as #1. So doing some math here...

To get a representative vote, we need to take all the #1 votes and move them down to the Top 3 category and take everything below Top 10ish and move it up to that category.

There are an adjusted 27 votes for Top 3 (which really means 2 or 3 all time).

27*2.5 = 67.5 points

There are 17 votes for Top 5 (which really means 4 or 5 all time since it isn't top 3).

17*4.5 = 76.5 points

There are an adjusted 50 votes for Top 10ish. Obviously 6-10 count in the top 10, and let's say it extends down to #12 before crossing into the Top 15 category, for an average of 9.

50*9 = 450 points

594 total points divided by 94 voters = 6.31 points (rounded to 6th all time)

This is probably a fair consensus of his rank.

If anyone thinks he is outside the top 10 then that would spell disaster for any Kobe fanboys. This is a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Too sad, really.

[elementally morale]

What a worthless, flawed poll. The fact "outside of top 15" is an option is proof enough. Not to mention what sort of numeric ranking do you give for "top 10ish" :lol

Ugh what a waste of time :facepalm


Top 10ish got a value of 8.

It doesn't change the outcome much if you give it a 7 or a 9. I tried all these things.

['Toine=MVP]

Either way you put it it never gets better than 6 and never worse than 9. A said it a few times. I tried all these myself. :)

So the verdict is: top 10, not top 5.

Another really simple way of looking at it, that even the biggest LeBron stan couldn't get super mad at is Top 5/Not Top 5.

44 voters think he is in the top 5 and 50 voters think he is not.

It is pretty close, to the point that we could say something like "he's arguably top 5". Referring back to an older comment of mine, if you had "Top 5ish" as a category, I bet a lot of people voting him outside the strict top 5 would have voted for him as Top 5ish (anyone who has him 6 or 7 should).

[Bankaii]

See post number 71. I already did it. Others, too. Read before you type.

You don't understand what the word 'opinion' means. You have a problem.

An opinion is an opinion without any backing. You may find it a stupid opinion... that's fine. But still an opinion. It is worth the same as your opinion. 1 vote.

That's how opinion based elections work. More than half of all voters think LeBron is top 10ish or worse. You want to say it is not valid. It is though. According to the majority.
Post 71, which was a ton of votes ago so..., still doesn

['Toine=MVP]

[QUOTE=Bankaii]Post 71, which was a ton of votes ago so..., still doesn

[elementally morale]

Another really simple way of looking at it, that even the biggest LeBron stan couldn't get super mad at is Top 5/Not Top 5.

44 voters think he is in the top 5 and 50 voters think he is not.

It is pretty close, to the point that we could say something like "he's arguably top 5". Referring back to an older comment of mine, if you had "Top 5ish" as a category, I bet a lot of people voting him outside the strict top 5 would have voted for him as Top 5ish (anyone who has him 6 or 7 should).

Which is... still 7. As is the result.

[elementally morale]

[QUOTE=Bankaii]Post 71, which was a ton of votes ago so..., still doesn

[elementally morale]

Okay, here it is. Everyone can try with different values. Takes 3 minutes to type it to a spreadsheet.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/o10u3q.jpg

[Bankaii]

Read post 71. I didn't say Kobe is better than LeBron.

I'm not making any arguments. This thread is a poll. It's opinions, not arguments.

['Toine=MVP]

Which is... still 7. As is the result.

You are being overly defensive here and didn't read what I wrote. I'm saying there is a threshold rank at which well over half the members here would say he's above. I'm pretty sure like 60% or so, maybe 2/3, would say he's in the top 7 of all time. That doesn't mean 7th. It means at least 7th.

It is also likely true, based on this voting at least that 60% or maybe 2/3 of the voters would say "not top 4" (only 53% said not top 5 and 71% said not top 3 so it seems like a fair approximation.

So 5, 6, or 7 is roughly where he ranks. I think the issue is that besides MJ, we are going to massively disagree on which guys are ahead of LeBron and which are below even if we slotted LeBron in at #6.

[elementally morale]

You are being overly defensive here and didn't read what I wrote. I'm saying there is a threshold rank at which well over half the members here would say he's above. I'm pretty sure like 60% or so, maybe 2/3, would say he's in the top 7 of all time. That doesn't mean 7th. It means at least 7th.

It is also likely true, based on this voting at least that 60% or maybe 2/3 of the voters would say "not top 4" (only 53% said not top 5 and 71% said not top 3 so it seems like a fair approximation.

So 5, 6, or 7 is roughly where he ranks. I think the issue is that besides MJ, we are going to massively disagree on which guys are ahead of LeBron and which are below even if we slotted LeBron in at #6.


Absolutely not. The bolded are dead wrong.

But feel free to create your own poll. You can have up to 14 choices here.

[fileman1209]

OP is dumb as hell, dude said he doubts LeBron is top 5 :roll:

Thread is dumb as hell too, how are we supposed to take this dumb ass thread serious if not top 15 is an option?


At this point i can't see LeBron being lower than 5. This forum is retarded

[3ball]

.
The reasons many people think lebron isn't top 15:


What if lebron stayed in Cleveland his whole career and had zero rings right now

He'd have no real case over Dirk or Malone, and he'd be behind Bird and Duncan by healthy margin

But even with the team-hopping - the same lack of rings would've happened if ray and kyrie missed those legacy-saving shots instead of making them

And that's without considering all his flaws.. i.e. no clutch for the majority of his career, crushes teammates, non-goat offenses, hard to build around his ball-dominance skillset, etc, etc

It's a good case that no one can refute because he did indeed team-hop and stack the deck
.

[FKAri]

AJ, facts are easy and not all people are simpletons like you. We want to dig deeper. We seek challenges so we analyze whats behind those facts coz thats where the fun is. Coz if facts is all we need, then why bother debating. Everyone will arrive at the same conclusion.
Because at the end of the day only losers respect bran. us big dick alfas respect kobe

['Toine=MVP]

Absolutely not. The bolded are dead wrong.

But feel free to create your own poll. You can have up to 14 choices here.

You are bad at reading.

47% of people here think he is at least top 5 (as of my latest post). This is based on YOUR poll. I am saying that I think most of the top 10ish folks would have him in the top 7 camp. But more importantly, there is some rank threshold where there would be significant agreement that he is over (60-65% is pretty significant).

[sdot_thadon]

Okay, here it is. Everyone can try with different values. Takes 3 minutes to type it to a spreadsheet.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/o10u3q.jpg
Those are your actual weighted values?:oldlol: ok makes perfect sense now. You gave the lowest point value to the most widespread belief as far as his ranking. There is no publication/sports entity that has lebron ranked lower than 5th if i remember correctly with most having him 3rd or higher. Would you explain how you came to your points distribution conclusions besides the fact that you perosnally say barely top 10?

[tpols]

.
The reasons many people think lebron isn't top 15:


What if lebron stayed in Cleveland his whole career and had zero rings right now

He'd have no real case over Dirk or Malone, and he'd be behind Bird and Duncan by healthy margin

But even with the team-hopping - the same lack of rings would've happened if ray and kyrie missed those legacy-saving shots instead of making them

And that's without considering all his flaws.. i.e. no clutch for the majority of his career, crushes teammates, non-goat offenses, hard to build around his ball-dominance skillset, etc, etc

It's a good case that no one can refute because he did indeed team-hop and stack the deck
.



How are you going to forget his defense allowing 4 small forwards to win FMVP on him directly head to head, and leading some,of the worst defenses in the league for a while now.

[elementally morale]

Those are your actual weighted values?:oldlol: ok makes perfect sense now. You gave the lowest point value to the most widespread belief as far as his ranking. There is no publication/sports entity that has lebron ranked lower than 5th if i remember correctly with most having him 3rd or higher. Would you explain how you came to your points distribution conclusions besides the fact that you perosnally say barely top 10?


More than 50% thinks he is not top 5. Isn't that a valid enough reason as to why there was such an option?

:facepalm

[brooks_thompson]

I would like to be fair and and say he's easily number two; all statistics point to it being so. But I just can't when, if given the choice, I would take Tim Duncan's career over Lebron's without a second thought. Numbers schmumbers

[elementally morale]

You are bad at reading.

47% of people here think he is at least top 5 (as of my latest post). This is based on YOUR poll. I am saying that I think most of the top 10ish folks would have him in the top 7 camp. But more importantly, there is some rank threshold where there would be significant agreement that he is over (60-65% is pretty significant).


But you don't know that. You assume. I for one have him somewhere between 9-12. From this data there is no telling exactly where people put him.

Anyway, we are close to a hundred so i think it was fun but more than enough. Per ISH LeBron is somewhere in the 6-9 range, most likely is number 7.

The end.

[sdot_thadon]

More than 50% thinks he is not top 5. Isn't that a valid enough reason as to why there was such an option?

:facepalm
pretty big lack of awareness, this is ish bro. There are more people who hate lebron than are fans here for various reasons. Most of the time it just takes an avy check to see the disposition. The rest of nba fandom? not so much hence the reason he's universally rated higher than your borderline troll options.

edit: not to mention at the moment around 50% have him top 5 and above.

['Toine=MVP]

But you don't know that. You assume. I for one have him somewhere between 9-12. From this data there is no telling exactly where people put him.

Anyway, we are close to a hundred so i think it was fun but more than enough. Per ISH LeBron is somewhere in the 6-9 range, most likely is number 7.

The end.

The median is likely better than 7. The median is likely somewhere around 5.5 or so, which is quite apparent by the 47/53 split for Top 5. The average (even adjusted for dummies who put him below Top 10ish, would be a bit lower (6.3 by my last count). So 5-7 is a reasonable estimate with VERY few extrapolations, and 6 being decent estimate. I know arguing over 6 and 7 isn't too important, and I personally don't care if he's ranked 6th or 7th on someone's list at all, but it is disingenuous to represent the results otherwise.

['Toine=MVP]

pretty big lack of awareness, this is ish bro. There are more people who hate lebron than are fans here for various reasons. Most of the time it just takes an avy check to see the disposition. The rest of nba fandom? not so much hence the reason he's universally rated higher than your borderline troll options.

edit: not to mention at the moment around 50% have him top 5 and above.

"Around 50%" yes. But less than 50%.

[elementally morale]

The median is likely better than 7. The median is likely somewhere around 5.5 or so, which is quite apparent by the 47/53 split for Top 5.


Wrong. In the top 5 there are 5 spots. Under the top 5 there are more spots. So your reasoning falls apart right here.




The average (even adjusted for dummies who put him below Top 10ish, would be a bit lower (6.3 by my last count). So 5-7 is a reasonable estimate with VERY few extrapolations, and 6 being decent estimate.


Wrong for the same reason.




I know arguing over 6 and 7 isn't too important, and I personally don't care if he's ranked 6th or 7th on someone's list at all, but it is disingenuous to represent the results otherwise.


Yes, it is not that important. Somewhere between 6 and 9. And we can't filter by account.


Now you have to excuse me, but I honestly lost interest.

[Gougou]

100% top 5.

If he wins a championship and mvp then second after Jordan.

[elementally morale]

After 100 votes:
points 724
avg: 7.24



If you exlude the extremes (goat and not top 15)


votes: 72
points: 488
avg: 6.78



If you exclude top 3 and out of top 10 as well:

votes: 43
points: 276
avg: 6.42


I say number 7 is a pretty safe bet. You may argue number 6 or number 8.


Take care.

[aj1987]

AJ, facts are easy and not all people are simpletons like you. We want to dig deeper. We seek challenges so we analyze whats behind those facts coz thats where the fun is. Coz if facts is all we need, then why bother debating. Everyone will arrive at the same conclusion.
Why would anyone debate with you? You have the intelligence of a rodent. You have never even watched a single second of basketball, let alone touch a real one. You're the Simple Jack on this board. Heck, Simple Jack would probably look like Einstein next to you.


I get it.

But sometimes you don't need facts. Who do you think is the best cook? Well... what do you like to eat? You have a right to form an opinion that you don't want to defend. You don't have to defend it. You may... try. :oldlol: Opinions are opinions because they are not facts. So you can't really prove them.

Or to put it in another way. Your opinion is not factual. Something you strongly believe will not make that belief a fact. However... you do think what you think and this IS a fact. When it comes to opinions the only fact you do have is your opinion being yours.
I'm sorry, but that's a crappy analogy. As SouBeach said, food is 100% subjective. In basketball you have stats and metrics to prove your case. How do you prove stuff when it comes to tasting food?

Of course, my opinion is not factual. lol

However, these are facts:

There's 2 people in the history of the sport with 4 or more MVP's and 3 or more MVP's.

Most All-NBA First teams (will likely end up with most All-NBA selections overall as well).

First and only player ever to hit 30k/8k/8k.

Top 5 all time in scoring (will likely end up top 2).

Most points ever in the PO's, top 3 in assists, and top 5 in rebounds.

Incredible career averages at all 3 stages (RS, PO's, and Finals).

Greatest G7 performer of all time.

Greatest elimination game performer of all time.

[warriorfan]

High iq thread

I picked top 10ish

['Toine=MVP]

Wrong. In the top 5 there are 5 spots. Under the top 5 there are more spots. So your reasoning falls apart right here.


Your logic fails miserable here. So slightly less than 50% of voters so far have him outside the top 5. So if a few votes switched over from Top 10ish to Top 5, we'd see the opposite, and more than half of voters would have him top 5.

If that were the case, then we'd have to say the median score is somewhere at least a little better than a flat 5. Maybe it would be 4.8 or 4.9. Because you set up the poll options so sloppily, we have very little information about the voters who don't have him top 5, but if it would only take 2-3 switched votes to make the median 4.9 or so, then it is incredibly safe to assume the current median opinion isn't too much lower than 5. I suggested 5.5, but it might be more like 5.3 or so. But 5.5 works as a conservative estimate.

Saying "wrong" over and over isn't helping you push the disingenuous agenda.

Having said all that, it is pretty clear that LeBron is not a clear cut top 5 player based on the voters here. But that is probably about as strong a comment as we can make. He is probably 6th based on these results. But again the poll was set up so poorly that it is tough to say definitively.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan are the guys I'd take over LeBron without thinking about it at all.

Guys like Oscar, Kobe, David Robinson, Isiah Thomas, Jerry West are all in the same vicinity. I don't put much stock in today's stats because the league is soft. I believe if you give these guys the green light to switch franchises as they see fit, a front office willing to move any and everybody by the trading deadline if these guys aren't happy, a super soft conference to dominate every year and a teflon coating that deflects any blame for anything, these guys would be just or more successful as LeBron has been in their own way.

I don't know where guys like Elgin Baylor, Bob Petite stand. I don't know much about them but they can't be too far behind.

Guys like Wade, Durant, Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Drexler, Dirk, Garnett, Barkley, Pippen, Moses Malone aren't that far behind, if at all.

They can't out-Lebron James Lebron James. They may not lead their team in every category (which has some negative consequences that are rarely spoken about) but I think they'd be just as successful if not more so in their own way if given similar circumstances.Among those players you list "ahead" of Lebron:

only 3 have more Mvp awards

only 1, probably 2 have more Finals Mvps(counting if Russell had been eligible his entire career)

only 6 guys have more rings (half of that 6 got privilege of playing with another player from the list)

only 3 have scored more points

only 1 has more assists

only 7 have more rebounds

none have scored more postseason points

1 has more playoff assists

5 have more playoff rebounds

only 2 have ever posted a higher PER

best elimination game player to ever walk the earth

only player to ever lead a series in all statistical categories and it was the finals to boot.

NONE have ever defeated a 70 win team for a title

i just stuck to hard facts and stayed away from the subjective aspects. there's literally a ton of things you can add like triple doubles, or more subjective things like offensive and defensive peak etc. Too much evidence to the contrary of what you want to put out there.

[3ball]

Among those players you list "ahead" of Lebron:

only 3 have more Mvp awards

only 1, probably 2 have more Finals Mvps(counting if Russell had been eligible his entire career)

only 6 guys have more rings (half of that 6 got privilege of playing with another player from the list)

only 3 have scored more points

only 1 has more assists

only 7 have more rebounds

none have scored more postseason points

1 has more playoff assists

5 have more playoff rebounds

only 2 have ever posted a higher PER

best elimination game player to ever walk the earth

only player to ever lead a series in all statistical categories and it was the finals to boot.

NONE have ever defeated a 70 win team for a title

i just stuck to hard facts and stayed away from the subjective aspects. there's literally a ton of things you can add like triple doubles, or more subjective things like offensive and defensive peak etc. Too much evidence to the contrary of what you want to put out there.
Lebron has led the league ONE TIME in something; basically never been the best at anything

So it's disingenuous to use career totals, which are heavily influenced by how long they played

The other stuff is random stuff, where other players have their areas of advantage too.. so Da Realist was spot-on

[Da_Realist]

Among those players you list "ahead" of Lebron:

only 3 have more Mvp awards

only 1, probably 2 have more Finals Mvps(counting if Russell had been eligible his entire career)

only 6 guys have more rings (half of that 6 got privilege of playing with another player from the list)

only 3 have scored more points

only 1 has more assists

only 7 have more rebounds

none have scored more postseason points

1 has more playoff assists

5 have more playoff rebounds

only 2 have ever posted a higher PER

best elimination game player to ever walk the earth

only player to ever lead a series in all statistical categories and it was the finals to boot.

NONE have ever defeated a 70 win team for a title

i just stuck to hard facts and stayed away from the subjective aspects. there's literally a ton of things you can add like triple doubles, or more subjective things like offensive and defensive peak etc. Too much evidence to the contrary of what you want to put out there.

So? Stats change depending on context. Basketball is not a math equation. Allow David Robinson to join the Seattle Supersonics in his prime and they'd destroy the league. He wouldn't need to beat a 70 win team, his team would be the 70 win team. But that's not enough. Let's say some team beats them after they dominate a few years... David would now be allowed to join any team of his choosing with a front office that would move heaven and earth to place the perfect team around him. He'd win even more. Allow him to do it AGAIN after that team wears itself down.

He would have a different career, a dynasty, more rings and he'd put up Wilt-like numbers. His numbers would change, but he would be the exact same player he always was.

[aj1987]

So? Stats change depending on context. Basketball is not a math equation. Allow David Robinson to join the Seattle Supersonics in his prime and they'd destroy the league. He wouldn't need to beat a 70 win team, his team would be the 70 win team. But that's not enough. Let's say some team beats them after they dominate a few years... David would now be allowed to join any team of his choosing with a front office that would move heaven and earth to place the perfect team around him. He'd win even more. Allow him to do it AGAIN after that team wears itself down.

He would have a different career, a dynasty, more rings and he'd put up Wilt-like numbers. His numbers would change, but he would be the exact same player he always was.

Would he also destroy the league if Payton's knees were shot and if Kemp was too much of a ***** to be physical and decided to stay on the perimeter instead?


MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan are the guys I'd take over LeBron without thinking about it at all.
:roll: :roll:


Guys like Oscar, Kobe, David Robinson, Isiah Thomas, Jerry West are all in the same vicinity.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Are you on literally all the drugs in the world right now? Ignoring the others, Isiah is in the vicinity of LeBron? That makes as much sense as Harden being in MJ's vicinity.



I don't put much stock in today's stats because the league is soft.

LeBron as a 18 year old rookie was dropping 21/6/6/2/1 in 2004 before all the rule changes. At 19, he was dropping 27/7/7/2/1 in his second season. Lets not act like

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron has led the league ONE TIME in something; basically never been the best at anything

So it's disingenuous to use career totals, which are heavily influenced by how long they played

The other stuff is random stuff, where other players have their areas of advantage too.. so Da Realist was spot-on
So goat isn't about a player's complete body of work? Since when? And you just got a skewed view of everything, it's not a negative to not lead anything when you've been great at everything at some point or another. Swiss army knives aren't meant to be the best tool for one thing. It's all about utility, I'm sure that will shoot over your head like a fadeaway though.

[Real14]

not top 15 for me. He's number 17 or 18 to me so far. Probaly even lower... I have to redo my list.:applause:

[sdot_thadon]

So? Stats change depending on context. Basketball is not a math equation. Allow David Robinson to join the Seattle Supersonics in his prime and they'd destroy the league. He wouldn't need to beat a 70 win team, his team would be the 70 win team. But that's not enough. Let's say some team beats them after they dominate a few years... David would now be allowed to join any team of his choosing with a front office that would move heaven and earth to place the perfect team around him. He'd win even more. Allow him to do it AGAIN after that team wears itself down.

He would have a different career, a dynasty, more rings and he'd put up Wilt-like numbers. His numbers would change, but he would be the exact same player he always was.
no, not just stats man. Accolades were actually at the forefront of my post. If, If, If. Let's say the Cavs organization were able to put a true contender around Lebron his 1st stint, as well as an alltime great coach and another top 20 all time player as his 2nd mate oh and lets not forget a squad that can win 55 games without him....wouldn't his career look different too? That's why i steered clear of subjective stuff purposely anyone can play the if game bro.

[sdot_thadon]

not top 15 for me. He's number 17 or 18 to me so far. Probaly even lower... I have to redo my list.:applause:
good thing nobody gives a damn what you think here:oldlol:

[LostCause]

Would he also destroy the league if Payton's knees were shot and if Kemp was too much of a ***** to be physical and decided to stay on the perimeter instead?

I don't think that was the case. They moved to the perimeter by necessity to allow more spacing for LeBron to operate. Pre-injury we saw it with Kevin Love who was getting way more touches in the paint than he did at any point in Cleveland, closer to what he was doing in Minnesota

Bosh we know did play more in the paint pre-LeBron so I dont know if it makes much sense to say he just suddenly became a *****. It's more likely that he was asked to stretch the floor instead of crowd the lane and that adjustment stuck with him, unlike Love who went back to getting more paint touches

[Da_Realist]

no, not just stats man. Accolades were actually at the forefront of my post. If, If, If. Let's say the Cavs organization were able to put a true contender around Lebron his 1st stint, as well as an alltime great coach and another top 20 all time player as his 2nd mate oh and lets not forget a squad that can win 55 games without him....wouldn't his career look different too? That's why i steered clear of subjective stuff purposely anyone can play the if game bro.

I don't think Lebron could play for an all-time coach or be able to plug his talents into a system or ever develop a team that could be good without him. Those are some of the reasons I don't have him in my top 5.

[sdot_thadon]

I don't think Lebron could play for an all-time coach or be able to plug his talents into a system or ever develop a team that could be good without him. Those are some of the reasons I don't have him in my top 5.
and that's an opinion without much to back it up so rightfully so you'll be questioned. Irrational thought.

[Da_Realist]

Are you on literally all the drugs in the world right now? Ignoring the others, Isiah is in the vicinity of LeBron? That makes as much sense as Harden being in MJ's vicinity.

Isiah led his team to two titles in perhaps the league's toughest conference ever and having to beat all time great teams led by all time greats Bird and Magic while holding off a soon-to-be all time great Bulls dynasty led by GOAT MJ.

Not the same as beating John Wall and Kyle Lowry every year. Give Isiah the same license LeBron has... let him join up with his superfriends after Detroit goes down. Let him join Cleveland and allow him to recruit Barkley, they'd be a problem. This is what LeBron has been getting away with.

[ArbitraryWater]

Da_Realist is literally on bath salts.

I don't have any other conclusion. That man has gone beyond lol

[Real14]

good thing nobody gives a damn what you think here:oldlol:
N.igga please!:biggums: I'm a ISH legend around here, u butthurt salty bitch:lol

[Real14]

Isiah led his team to two titles in perhaps the league's toughest conference ever and having to beat all time great teams led by all time greats Bird and Magic while holding off a soon-to-be all time great Bulls dynasty led by GOAT MJ.

Not the same as beating John Wall and Kyle Lowry every year. Give Isiah the same license LeBron has... let him join up with his superfriends after Detroit goes down. Let him join Cleveland and allow him to recruit Barkley, they'd be a problem. This is what LeBron has been getting away with.
That's right! Preach to these young na

[sdot_thadon]

N.igga please!:biggums: I'm a ISH legend around here, u butthurt salty bitch:lol
no such thing as a legendary hater bro :oldlol: and nah no salt here im actualy glad to see people debating with fleshed out posts instead of stupid one liner catchphrases "legends" are known for.

[Real14]

no such thing as a legendary hater bro :oldlol: and nah no salt here im actualy glad to see people debating with fleshed out posts instead of stupid one liner catchphrases "legends" are known for.
I'm not a hater man. I just think Lebron is very overrated and dont deserve to be called top 5 of all time man. Who are you btw?:confusedshrug: :biggums: :lol

[sdot_thadon]

I'm not a hater man. I just think Lebron is very overrated and dont deserve to be called top 5 of all time man. Who are you btw?:confusedshrug: :biggums: :lol
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/17732438/i-am-not-your-father.jpg
:oldlol: couldn't resist.
just a concerned citizen that likes to discuss all time lists.

[Real14]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/17732438/i-am-not-your-father.jpg
:oldlol: couldn't resist.
just a concerned citizen that likes to discuss all time lists.
ok whatever u say pal:lol

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

14-20 range

[3ball]

So goat isn't about a player's complete body of work? Since when? And you just got a skewed view of everything, it's not a negative to not lead anything when you've been great at everything at some point or another. Swiss army knives aren't meant to be the best tool for one thing. It's all about utility, I'm sure that will shoot over your head like a fadeaway though.
Yeah but that's the thing - MJ's been great at everything too - he was an all-around player, but also the goat at various things like scoring and steals

Unfortunately, those goat things overshadowed his great play in other areas.. let me know when gets lebron gets 11 apg in the Finals, let alone as a non-PG..

And when has lebron ever been called the best player at another position, like the media called MJ within a few games of him at PG in 89'???.. I'll wait.. lebron's just a ball-dominator - he isn't great off-ball at SG, or on the post as a pf
.

[sdot_thadon]

Yeah but that's the thing - MJ's been great at everything too - he was an all-around player, but also the goat at various things like scoring and steals

Unfortunately, those goat things overshadowed his great play in other areas.. let me know when gets lebron gets 11 apg in the Finals, let alone as a non-PG..

And when has lebron ever been called the best player at another position, like the media called MJ within a few games of him at PG in 89'???.. I'll wait..
Mj was great ag multiple things as well. I personally think Lebron was capable of more things on the floor simply due to being bigger while still able to do things most small guys could as well. Can't develop size.

Also about that last sentence i guess you missed Miami running Lebron at the 4 and that being the most dangerous he ever was as a player.:no:

[knicksman]

Because at the end of the day only losers respect bran. us big dick alfas respect kobe

dumb people always get triggered by my posts.

[knicksman]

too many dumbass bron stans triggered by this thread. Not all people have same low standards as you guys.

[SouBeachTalents]

too many dumbass bron stans triggered by this thread. Not all people have same low standards as you guys.
True, some of us could root for the Knicks

[Meticode]

Rightnow for me he's probably around 6-8, by the time he finsihes even with no rings he'll be Top 5 becuase of the various records he'll break. He'll probably be Top 3 in scoring all time.

[Meticode]

He doesn't even sniff GOAT to me unless somehow he gets 2 more rings as the man.

[AirTupac]

Rightnow for me he's probably around 6-8, by the time he finsihes even with no rings he'll be Top 5 becuase of the various records he'll break. He'll probably be Top 3 in scoring all time.


He doesn't even sniff GOAT to me unless somehow he gets 2 more rings as the man.


Thats as accurate as someone can get surprisingly.

[knicksman]

True, some of us could root for the Knicks

teams are different from players. But youre a dumbass so not surprised you dont know:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

teams are different from players. But youre a dumbass so not surprised you dont know:lol
triggered coz the truth hurts

[knicksman]

triggered coz the truth hurts

ayiee the guy who craves respect is wanting to trigger me. LOL

[SouBeachTalents]

ayiee the guy who craves respect is wanting to trigger me. LOL
I don

[Andrei89]

Top 3

Only MJ and Bird are better

[Real14]

Top 3

Only MJ and Bird are better
:roll:

[Real14]

triggered coz the truth hurts
Knicks still is better in playoff matchups:lol Ewing, starks, sprewell and Houston are your daddies:oldlol:

[aj1987]

Isiah led his team to two titles in perhaps the league's toughest conference ever and having to beat all time great teams led by all time greats Bird and Magic while holding off a soon-to-be all time great Bulls dynasty led by GOAT MJ.

Not the same as beating John Wall and Kyle Lowry every year. Give Isiah the same license LeBron has... let him join up with his superfriends after Detroit goes down. Let him join Cleveland and allow him to recruit Barkley, they'd be a problem. This is what LeBron has been getting away with.
So you are on all the drugs in the World. You're making knicksman look like he has 4 functioning brain cells.

Isiah isn't even a top 20 GOAT. LeBron is a top 3 GOAT. Replace LeBron with Isiah on every single team LeBron has been on and Isiah doesn't even SNIFF a ring, let alone win won. FOH with your tier 1 autism. :oldlol:


I don't think that was the case. They moved to the perimeter by necessity to allow more spacing for LeBron to operate. Pre-injury we saw it with Kevin Love who was getting way more touches in the paint than he did at any point in Cleveland, closer to what he was doing in Minnesota

Bosh we know did play more in the paint pre-LeBron so I dont know if it makes much sense to say he just suddenly became a *****. It's more likely that he was asked to stretch the floor instead of crowd the lane and that adjustment stuck with him, unlike Love who went back to getting more paint touches
~50% of Bosh's shots came outside 10ft pre-LeBron. WITH LeBron, ~54% of his shots were outside 10ft. A change of 4%. That's pretty much half a shot a game.

Also, this is straight from Bosh's mouth:

"I don't bang anybody anymore," Bosh said. "It's a tired thing for me. It's not my strength and I understand that."

"Just playing at an elite level, you play better defenders," Bosh said. "It gets tiring. What they ask us to do, to blitz the screen and roll, every single one, close out and get back. I wasn't this same weight. I was already 20-30 pounds lighter than anybody else. All that stuff just takes my energy."

Also, it was the game evolving. Bosh didn't just stop playing in the post overnight.

[SouBeachTalents]

Knicks still is better in playoff matchups:lol Ewing, starks, sprewell and Houston are your daddies:oldlol:
Heat also have more titles despite the Knicks FORTY year head start :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

So you are on all the drugs in the World. You're making knicksman look like he has 4 functioning brain cells.

Isiah isn't even a top 20 GOAT. LeBron is a top 3 GOAT. Replace LeBron with Isiah on every single team LeBron has been on and Isiah doesn't even SNIFF a ring, let alone win won. FOH with your tier 1 autism. :oldlol:

That's irrelevant. And simple. I don't think LeBron would win with the teams Isiah led. Maybe if he was playing John Wall and Beal Bradley but not in the conference Isiah played in. He wouldn't know how to best utilize the talent on that team and would probably have everyone traded away.

Secondly he is nowhere near the leader Isiah was. Isiah was tough and it rubbed off on his teammates. LeBron would have his teammates flopping and begging for calls.

And no, LeBron is not top 3. Top 10-ish. In my book, 10th at best.

[NBAGOAT]

this forum can be a joke with some of these opinions. They're like a lvl beyond trolling. Outside top 15 is a joke no matter what.

I'm sure Lebron is winning even more than 2 titles with the loads of good players the Bad Boys had vs the aging Celtics and MJ with no help.

[egokiller]

Not surprised that the most votes have him top 10 ish. :applause:

[Andrei89]

:roll:

Poor lad, I remember in 2010 you were begging for Lebron:(

[Da_Realist]

this forum can be a joke with some of these opinions. They're like a lvl beyond trolling. Outside top 15 is a joke no matter what.

I'm sure Lebron is winning even more than 2 titles with the loads of good players the Bad Boys had vs the aging Celtics and MJ with no help.

No he wouldn't. He'd want to do everything and in the process he'd marginalize Dumars and VJ (who both ran the offense). LeBron ball wouldn't beat the 80's Lakers or Celtics or the 1990 Bulls. Learning to share ball responsibilities is also a great skill.

[LostCause]

I think it's pretty indefensible to have him outside a Top 5.

Outside Top 15 is just terrible, outside Top 10, makes no sense either

Outside Jordan and Kareem, the rest of the Top 5 is interchangeable imo, and I think LeBron fits well in that range

[NBAGOAT]

No he wouldn't. He'd want to do everything and in the process he'd marginalize Dumars and VJ (who both ran the offense). LeBron ball wouldn't beat the 80's Lakers or Celtics or the 1990 Bulls. Learning to share ball responsibilities is also a great skill.

Defecting to a better player is also a skill. Dumars and VJ along with the others were certainly experienced enough to do that. There's also nothing wrong with those two running the offense less because it's just a fact lebron is better at running an offense than them as ugly as you think it looks. Miami Bron did decent enough sharing with Wade too.

The defense depending on what version of Bron could easily be nastier and better. The Pistons beat 1 version of the Lakers(89), Celtics(88), and Bulls (90)each, none at their prime lvls. I could easily see them winning in say 88 when isiah was one game from winning already. I know you know all this.

[Da_Realist]

Defecting to a better player is also a skill. Dumars and VJ along with the others were certainly experienced enough to do that. There's also nothing wrong with those two running the offense less because it's just a fact lebron is better at running an offense than them as ugly as you think it looks. Miami Bron did decent enough sharing with Wade too.

The defense depending on what version of Bron could easily be nastier and better. The Pistons beat 1 version of the Lakers(89), Celtics(88), and Bulls (90)each, none at their prime lvls. I could easily see them winning in say 88 when isiah was one game from winning already. I know you know all this.

I can't see them beating the 88 Lakers or the 90 Bulls. The 89 Lakers either if they aren't injured. Not with the way they'd need to change their play to fit LeBron's game. Simpler offense with a bigger focus on LeBron needing to be superman. The 90 version of Pippen (with MJ and Grant) would slow LeBron way down.

Conversely, Detroit's offense was multi-faceted. Even when Isiah struggled, other guys felt comfortable taking over. It's not about talent, it's about style. They were given opportunities to lead the offense and make basketball decisions years before they became championship caliber. When they reached the big stage, all of them were ready and dependable.

[NBAGOAT]

I can't see them beating the 88 Lakers or the 90 Bulls. The 89 Lakers either if they aren't injured. Not with the way they'd need to change their play to fit LeBron's game. Simpler offense with a bigger focus on LeBron needing to be superman. The 90 version of Pippen (with MJ and Grant) would slow LeBron way down.

Conversely, Detroit's offense was multi-faceted. Even when Isiah struggled, other guys felt comfortable taking over. It's not about talent, it's about style. They were given opportunities to lead the offense and make basketball decisions years before they became championship caliber. When they reached the big stage, all of them were ready and dependable.

We

[FKAri]

We’re not assuming lebron gets drafted like isiah, we’re just inserting him as a replacement on those late 80s teams. Being multi faceted or balanced does not always mean most effective. Bron has lead worse rosters extremely effectively, thts indisputable. Guys like wade and Kyrie were certainly comfortable taking over, why couldn’t the Detroit guys. Lebron has faced all the best wing defenders of this era and produced fairly well. What kind of production/level of play is “way down”?

This is all moot anyway since it’s a pure hypothetical to argue about something unarguable. Bron is a better player than isiah and it’s not really close
There's no one left on this board who will have a reasonable take on anything. ISH is home to people with some of the weirdest basketball beliefs I've ever heard of. You're wasting your breathe(fingers?).

[NBAGOAT]

There's no one left on this board who will have a reasonable take on anything. ISH is home to people with some of the weirdest basketball beliefs I've ever heard of. You're wasting your breathe(fingers?).

Tbf I was looking to waste time lol. Agreed the trolls you see on Facebook,Twitter, YouTube all the time but there are some puzzling serious takes here.

[NBAGOAT]

Btw this giving credit to a player for his team playing well without him is the most ridiculous thing I’m seeing more of, it goes against the basis of player evaluation and even the eye test which is how much do you help your team.

It can be manipulated in so many ways. Like yes the 7sol suns were mediocre without Nash which does show the system was extremely reliant on Nash. That should be a positive testament how good Nash was, not a negative. It’s The coaches and teammates job to do well without you. Is draymond suddenly a bad defender/leader since gs drops off heavily defensively without him? :lol no, this concept is a joke the exact opposite is true.

[Da_Realist]

Btw this giving credit to a player for his team playing well without him is the most ridiculous thing I’m seeing more of, it goes against the basis of player evaluation and even the eye test which is how much do you help your team.

It can be manipulated in so many ways. Like yes the 7sol suns were mediocre without Nash which does show the system was extremely reliant on Nash. That should be a positive testament how good Nash was, not a negative. It’s The coaches and teammates job to do well without you. Is draymond suddenly a bad defender/leader since gs drops off heavily defensively without him? :lol no, this concept is a joke the exact opposite is true.

Of course it seems ridiculous because that's how you worded it. My point is Isiah and others foster more of a team atmosphere that better incorporates teammates and allows them to grow in their roles and responsibilities. There's a system in place that even the best player submits to. Even the best player listens to the coach and is even instructed because the system and team is bigger than he is. This is why teams can do well enough without the star player for stretches. That's leadership.

Doing everything yourself, waving off coaches, refusing to play within a system that is bigger than you makes you the center of everything and everyone else becomes dependent on you. You get the stats. You get all the glory. Your sorry teammates get all the blame. Of course with no system and no respect for the coach, the team craters when you leave. That doesn't necessarily define how great you are. At least that's not the only measuring stick.

[Rico2016]

Poor lad, I remember in 2010 you were begging for Lebron:(

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[aj1987]

That's irrelevant. And simple. I don't think LeBron would win with the teams Isiah led. Maybe if he was playing John Wall and Beal Bradley but not in the conference Isiah played in. He wouldn't know how to best utilize the talent on that team and would probably have everyone traded away.
LeBron won titles with significantly worse teams than those Isiah played on. Replace LeBron and Isiah and LeBron wins more than 3 rings with those teams. Rodman, Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, and a ton of others.

On the other hand, I don't think Jordan would win a single title with LeBron's teams. He wouldn't know how to best utilize the talent on that teams and would probably have retired mid season.


Secondly he is nowhere near the leader Isiah was. Isiah was tough and it rubbed off on his teammates. LeBron would have his teammates flopping and begging for calls.
So, you're not on drugs. You're just a retard.

Kyrie literally just called LeBron to apologize to him. As I said, LeBron would've demanded more from him teammates and would've made them perform better. They would've won a lot more with LeBron in Isiah's place. Have you been a LeBron locker room? Have you seen anyone call him a bad teammate?

I really can't believe that people think LeBron and Isiah are in the same tier. SMH!


And no, LeBron is not top 3. Top 10-ish. In my book, 10th at best.
This isn't 2012, so LeBron is a top 3 GOAT and top 5 at WORST. You can throw out blanket statements all you want and cry all you want, but facts are facts:

There's 2 people in the history of the sport with 4 or more MVP's and 3 or more MVP's.

Most All-NBA First teams (will likely end up with most All-NBA selections overall as well).

First and only player ever to hit 30k/8k/8k.

Top 5 all time in scoring (will likely end up top 2).

Most points ever in the PO's, top 3 in assists, and top 5 in rebounds.

Incredible career averages at all 3 stages (RS, PO's, and Finals).

Greatest G7 performer of all time.

Greatest elimination game performer of all time.

[stalkerforlife]

Not top 15.

Quitting.
Colluding.
Super teaming.
Easting.
Choking.
Etcing.

[RRR3]

Da Realist is PETRIFIED of LeBron. Wow.


Comparing him to Isiah Thomas :roll:




Must...protect....muh MJ!

[fileman1209]

This DUMBASS is comparing a top 3 player of all time to Isaiah Thomas :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol

Good Lord what a dumbass:roll:

[Prometheus]

Top ten. He is one of the all time greatest players. Not at the summit though.

[eliteballer]

He's a juicer and I will NOT rank a juicer:



Did Bill Simmons Hint That LeBron James Took A Steroid Vacation?

Simmons met fan backlash when he floated the idea that LeBron wasn’t the “same player” early in the 2015 season. He responded as such:

“Like it was our fault that LeBron was playing below the rim for the first two months and the Cavs were a complete mess. I’m sorry for pointing that out everybody!”

After NBA beat writer Zach Lowe struggled to politely categorize LeBron’s two-week refresher vacation to Miami in January, Simmons pushed his stance once again:

Bill Simmons: Uh…I have a couple titles for that but I’m not gonna say.

Zach Lowe: I’m not going anywhere near where you’re going.

Bill Simmons: I’m not going anywhere either!

He later elaborated, saying:

“LeBron James…looked like he was entering another phase of his career. He’s got a lot of miles on him. Looked different in how he was playing. Went away for two weeks, came back. He’s been lights out. [He] basically has been at 29 [points] a game, 6 [assists] and 6 [rebounds]. Fifty percent shooting. He looks like LeBron again.”

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/did-bill-s...roid-vacation/
http://bluegrasspreps.com/national-b...ns-298941.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...bill_alluding/
https://247sports.com/nba/mavericks/...tion-71485040/



LeBatard: My Guess is LeBron James is ‘Doing Something’

http://slicemiami.com/2016/06/08/le-...ron-james-hgh/



LeBron James was in Miami while the Cavaliers played at home Sunday, with team's permission

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2015/01/lebron_james_miami.html



Here's the story behind the 2-week break that turned LeBron James' season around

Windhorst says that late in 2014, James had been moody and his body wasn't 100%. After suddenly deciding not to play in a game against the Hawks, the Cavs gave him take two weeks off to rest, from which he returned healthy and in a better mood, seemingly revitalized by some midseason trades.

"[James] had sort of just like waved a bit of a white flag there. He just didn't feel like playing. He had never done that ever before. He had always just played through it. And so it was after that game, [the Cavaliers] said, 'Alright, take your two weeks off,' because he had reached a very low point."

Nobody is quite sure why James' two-week break turned around his season. He does seem healthier and more explosive. If it was just fatigue and simple aches that he was dealing with, then two weeks may have been enough to revitalize him.



LeBron James Briefly Went To Miami Before Start Of Finals

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-sp-lebron-james-udonis-haslem-s20180614-story.html



The Only Thing Stephen A Smith and Max Kellerman Can Agree On

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1Ie5nmM1Xw&t=2m05s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gild8BBvrkA&t=11m45s


https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/lebron-james-of-the-cleveland-cavaliers-looks-to-pass-against-the-san-picture-id85153038

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b6/22/c2/b622c23710df06e9d8fdffa44f475994--cleveland-cavs-king-james.jpg

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.428850.1314536733!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/alg-lebron-dunk-jpg.jpg

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/UkLrKr3KVvmKb9pLowD34pgjRlg=/0x0:1000x667/1200x800/filters:focal(0x0:1000x667)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/photo_images/2971465/GYI0065063672.jpg

https://mk0slamonlinensgt39k.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/GettyImages-909447398.jpg

https://i1.wp.com/nbastatslab.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/maxresdefault-1.jpg

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Top 10 ish for me. Somewhere between 7 and 10.

[305Baller]

If LeBron passes Kareem in points I will give him the #2 all-time spot behind Jordan. Best career by far in the NBA at that point.

[BallsOut]

Looks like he's around top 8 average based on all the votes here. Still think that's a bit high :lebronamazed: