Jokic is doing what lebron should be doing - fielding a contender with a no-star cast

[3ball]

Giannis is also doing it, along with harden and others. Lebron is being overrated for not doing the same, and instead managing expectations via low projections

And Jokic's team moves the ball and runs better shit (#2 in team assists)... People rave about a team's bad record without lebron, but that happens for any ball-dominant team that loses their ball-dominator - Harden's team would similarly fall off without their ball-dominator, whereas a team that relies on ball movement can continue to rely on ball movement..

the key to goatness is getting dominant stats without stopping ball movement, so the team can actually be good (move the ball instead of relying on a player's ball-dominance)
.

[superduper]

Jokic isn't a bitch like LeBrenda

[FireDavidKahn]

Giannis is also doing it, along with harden and others. Lebron is being overrated for not doing the same, and instead managing expectations via low projections

And Jokic's team moves the ball and runs better shit (#2 in team assists)... People rave about a team's bad record without lebron, but that happens for any ball-dominant team that loses their ball-dominator - Harden's team would similarly fall off without their ball-dominator, whereas a team that relies on ball movement can continue to rely on ball movement..

the key to goatness is getting dominant stats without ball-stopping potential ball movement, so the team can actually be good (instead of relying on a player's ball-dominance)
.

Giannis and Jokic aren't doing anything that LeBron didn't do in his first stint in Cleveland...

Besides, both Jokic and Giannis this year are playing with a supporting cast FAR better then what LeBron had in his first stint.

[k0kakw0rld]

It's not like the Lakers weren't 4th in the west before he got injured, huh?

bitchBall

[stalkerforlife]

Giannis and Jokic aren't doing anything that LeBron didn't do in his first stint in Cleveland...

Besides, both Jokic and Giannis this year are playing with a supporting cast FAR better then what LeBron had in his first stint.

Jokic is doing it in the West.

Everything East is meaningless when Bran played.

[aj1987]

So why couldn't Jordan field a contender with a no-star cast and instead went 1-9?

[NBASTATMAN]

LEBRON LIVING RENT FREE IN

3BALL
STALKER
KENNETH
SUPERSCRUB
STATUTORY


'S HEADS..

CANT GET ENOUGH OF LEBRON THESE GUYS... :lol

[StrongLurk]

3ball, you've confirmed over and over again that Lebron is a top 5 player of all time.

We are tired of it.

[3ball]

Giannis and Jokic aren't doing anything that LeBron didn't do in his first stint in Cleveland...

Besides, both Jokic and Giannis this year are playing with a supporting cast FAR better then what LeBron had in his first stint.
Lebron did that in a weak East that Kidd, Iverson, and Dwight all romped to the Finals with weak casts in.. so it means nothing.. lebron actually missed the Finals and lost to Dwight during those years

And why not this year for the so-called goat, like MJ did when he was 34 and pippen was out (24-11, 1 seed) - mj showed he was DESERVING of the praise by being better than the young guns and winning MVP over Shaq, Hill, Hakeem, Penny, Duncan, Kidd and the like

Btw, don't have a short memory, like all lebron fans/media - J Murray isn't anywhere near Mo Williams, who was considered a big pickup and the only roster change during the Cavs' 21-win improvement from 08' to 09' (45 to 66 wins):

Mo Williams 08':.l. 17/3/6.. 56.6 ts.. 17.0 PER.. 0.091 ws/48.. 2.6 obpm.. 1.4 vorp
Jamal Murray 19':. 18/4/5.. 52.8 ts.. 15.4 PER.. 0.082 ws/48.. 0.6 obpm.. 0.4 vorp
Mo Williams 09':l.. 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 3.0 obpm.. 3.1 vorp

[bigkingsfan]

He's doing better than 4th year Ordan

Jokic >

[Kawhi]

I am 100% certain OP has not seen a Denver game in years. That team is very good.

[3ball]

He's doing better than 4th year Ordan

Jokic >
In Jordan's 4th healthy season (89'), he led a 6 seed to the ECF and 6 games with the champs.. whereas lebron gets swept and has record loss with various 2 seeds

So let see what Jokic can do with his 2 seed this year.. although surely he'll do better than lebron's record losses, so Jokic is already > lebron..

but jokic ain't taking the champs 6 games - only MJ did that with a low-seeded, star-less cast.. and that's how we know he could win this year with these lakers, who have 3 guys > 89' pippen, plus elite rim protection and just a ton of good players that MJ never had

[FireDavidKahn]

Jokic is doing it in the West.

Everything East is meaningless when Bran played.
Sure, but what id Jokic never makes it to the the Finals or even the WCF. How would that be different then LeBron in his first stint in Cleveland?

[3ball]

I am 100% certain OP has not seen a Denver game in years. That team is very good.
denver doesn't have a high talent level.. the Lakers might have more talent

But Denver moves the ball and runs better shit (#2 in team assists)...

People rave about a team's bad record without lebron, but that happens for any ball-dominant team that loses their ball-dominator - Harden's team would similarly fall off without their ball-dominator, whereas a team that relies on ball movement can continue to rely on ball movement..

the key to goatness is getting dominant stats without stopping ball movement, so the team can actually be good (move the ball instead of relying on a player's ball-dominance)

[Foster5k]

the key to goatness is getting dominant stats without stopping ball movement, so the team can actually be good (move the ball instead of relying on a player's ball-dominance)
Yet, the '93-'94 Bulls lost in the 2nd round WITHOUT Jordan. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Sure, but what id Jokic never makes it to the the Finals or even the WCF. How would that be different then LeBron in his first stint in Cleveland?
He wasn't the clear-cut favorite like lebron's 1 seeds

Let alone losing to teams like the magic or 50-win Celtics

Thats what made it so bad.. the east was weak and he still missed Finals as the favored 1 seed

Jokic romps in the 09' East with these nugs

[FKAri]

He's doing better than 4th year Ordan

Jokic >
24 year old MJ got swept by Boston. That same year, big bad Boston went the distance vs a team of ZERO ALL-STARS :lol

Cant decide if the era was worse or the players.

[sbw19]

Comparison gets a lil starker when the most drama he stirred was when he barely left the bench during a fight and league suspended him for it. Like, he barely registers on the news for anything but highlights. He's totally the anti-LeBron. :oldlol:

[Kawhi]

denver doesn't have a high talent level..
How many times have you seen them in action?

[bigkingsfan]

In Jordan's 4th healthy season (89'), he led a 6 seed to the ECF and 6 games with the champs.. whereas lebron gets swept and has record loss with various 2 seeds

So let see what Jokic can do with his 2 seed this year.. although surely he'll do better than lebron's record losses, so Jokic is already > lebron..

but jokic ain't taking the champs 6 games - only MJ did that with a low-seeded, star-less cast.. and that's how we know he could win this year with these lakers, who have 3 guys > 89' pippen, plus elite rim protection and just a ton of good players that MJ never had
Healthy season. Like he wasn't healthy in the 85 86 87 88 playoffs. If healthy season matters better, take away the Bulls win against Detroit because Isiah was injured in both the regular season and the playoffs. :oldlol:

[Manny98]

Why couldn't Jordan get past the first round with a no star cast:confusedshrug:

[Bronbron23]

Jokic and Greek arnt on a contending team yet. Regular season success don't mean shit. They could easily lose in the first or second round. Especially jokic.

And LeBron already took a mediocre team to the finals years ago so what the hell are you talking about?

[Foster5k]

Jokic and Greek arnt on a contending team yet. Regular season success don't mean shit. They could easily lose in the first or second round. Especially jokic.

And LeBron already took a mediocre team to the finals years ago so what the hell are you talking about?
Facts.

[NuggetsFan]

LeBron is better than Jokic. Look at what he did in Cleveland when he was younger. Nuggets have some amazing young talent, Murray is probably going to be a future star. Yeah Nuggets don't have another star currently and Jokic is an MVP candidate but even as a huge Nuggets fan who isn't surprised by Jokic being a superstar this is crazy.

Jokic's season is wildly underrated tho. If any other star was doing what Jokic has done with all the injuries it'd be story #1. I get people don't care about triple doubles but he's not Westbrook. Jokic doesn't care about stats. He's also a C. He might already be the GOAT passing C already. He's finally become aggressive with his scoring as well which was always there he's just so selfless.

I could see the Nuggets slipping a little bit in the second half. Were still like 2 years away IMO.

[3ball]

Why couldn't Jordan get past the first round with a no star cast:confusedshrug:
He went to 2nd round in 88', ecf in 89', and won the ring in 91' with no stars

He only struggled with losing his first couple seasons, just like lebron.. but they were fine by their 3rd healthy seasons (06 and 88')

[3ball]

LeBron already took a mediocre team to the finals years ago


Lebron did that in a weak East that Kidd, Iverson, and Dwight all romped to the Finals with weak casts in.. so it means nothing.. lebron actually missed the Finals and lost to Dwight during those years

And why not this year for the so-called goat, like MJ did when he was 34 and pippen was out (24-11, 1 seed) - mj showed he was DESERVING of the praise by being better than the young guns and winning MVP over Shaq, Hill, Hakeem, Penny, Duncan, Kidd and the like.. whereas ur making excuses for lebron not being the best, or being able to carry a team to a high seed
.

[RRR3]

Jordan had superstar scorer Orlando Woolridge and all-star big Charles Oakley and still couldn’t do shit.

[FireDavidKahn]

denver doesn't have a high talent level.. the Lakers might have more talent

But Denver moves the ball and runs better shit (#2 in team assists)...

People rave about a team's bad record without lebron, but that happens for any ball-dominant team that loses their ball-dominator - Harden's team would similarly fall off without their ball-dominator, whereas a team that relies on ball movement can continue to rely on ball movement..

the key to goatness is getting dominant stats without stopping ball movement, so the team can actually be good (move the ball instead of relying on a player's ball-dominance)

Lebron didn't have a high level talent either.

And look at Denver's team from top to bottom. So, so much more depth.

That's not marginalizing what Jokic is doing at all but to say that Lebron had a similar supporting cast in his first stint in Cleveland is comical.

[3ball]

Lebron didn't have a high level talent either.

And look at Denver's team from top to bottom. So, so much more depth.

That's not marginalizing what Jokic is doing at all but to say that Lebron had a similar supporting cast in his first stint in Cleveland is comical.
Again, Lebron did that in a weak East that Kidd, Iverson, and Dwight all romped to the Finals with weak casts in.. so it means nothing.. lebron actually missed the Finals and lost to Dwight during those years

And why not this year for the so-called goat, like MJ did when he was 34 and pippen was out (24-11, 1 seed) - mj showed he was DESERVING of the praise by being better than the young guns and winning MVP over Shaq, Hill, Hakeem, Penny, Duncan, Kidd and the like.. whereas ur making excuses for lebron not being the best, or being able to carry a team to a high seed

And LeBron's 09 and 10' casts are much better than jokic's.. lebron had proven all-stars and a cast of decorated vets

[RRR3]

Again, Lebron did that in a weak East that Kidd, Iverson, and Dwight all romped to the Finals with weak casts in.. so it means nothing.. lebron actually missed the Finals and lost to Dwight during those years

And why not this year for the so-called goat, like MJ did when he was 34 and pippen was out (24-11, 1 seed) - mj showed he was DESERVING of the praise by being better than the young guns and winning MVP over Shaq, Hill, Hakeem, Penny, Duncan, Kidd and the like.. whereas ur making excuses for lebron not being the best, or being able to carry a team to a high seed

And LeBron's 09 and 10' casts are much better than jokic's.. lebron had proven all-stars and a cast of decorated vets
Why do you keep copying and pasting the same post over and over? Are you too stupid to construct new responses when other posters come up with new points?

[3ball]

Why do you keep copying and pasting the same post over and over? Are you too stupid to construct new responses when other posters come up with new points?
People keep repeating the same thing about lebron's first Cleveland stint, when the weak conference negates it, nor would those years excuse him from doing it at 34, like the real goat MJ did

Lebron simply gets a lot of false praise.. like, when is the last time this guy won the mvp?

[SouBeachTalents]

People keep repeating the same thing about lebron's first Cleveland stint, when the weak conference negates it, nor would those years excuse him from doing it at 34, like the real goat MJ did

Lebron simply gets a lot of false praise.. like, when is the last time this guy won the mvp?
Dude has 4 of them, one of only 5 players in history with 4+ MVP's :lol

[RRR3]

People keep repeating the same thing about lebron's first Cleveland stint, when the weak conference negates it, nor would those years excuse him from doing it at 34, like the real goat MJ did

Lebron simply gets a lot of false praise.. like, when is the last time this guy won the mvp?
If MJ was the real GOAT how come he couldn’t lead a team to a respectable record with superstar scorer Woolridge and all-star big Oakley?

[3ball]

Healthy season. Like he wasn't healthy in the 85 86 87 88 playoffs. If healthy season matters better, take away the Bulls win against Detroit because Isiah was injured in both the regular season and the playoffs

.
Healthy seasons matter because MJ had no chance to get the bulls a better seed in 1986 - the team was 21-43 without him (27-win pace), and 9-9 with his limited minutes (25 mpg)..

so the 86' bulls would've won at least 41 games with healthy MJ and been a much higher seed, thus avoiding the celtics in the 1st round.. this would've sped up their development, rather than get beat in the 1st round..

Don't you want the Lakers to avoid the warriors in round 1? Wouldn't it be better for the younger guys to make the 2nd round or beyond?.. that's what a healthy MJ meant in 86'

[RRR3]

Healthy seasons matter because MJ had no chance to get the bulls a better seed in 1986 - the team was 21-43 without him (27-win pace), and 9-9 with his limited minutes (25 mpg)..

so the 86' bulls would've won at least 41 games with healthy MJ and been a much higher seed, thus avoiding the celtics in the 1st round.. this would've sped up their development, rather than get beat in the 1st round..

Don't you want the Lakers to avoid the warriors in round 1? Wouldn't it be better for the younger guys to make the 2nd round or beyond?.. that's what a healthy MJ meant in 86'
MJ was healthy in 87. Why couldn’t he lead his team to more than a paltry 40 wins?

[3ball]

[QUOTE=RRR3]If MJ was the real GOAT how come he couldn

[3ball]

MJ was healthy in 87. Why couldn’t he lead his team to more than a paltry 40 wins?
Again, those were his first couple seasons, where lebron also struggled and couldn't make the playoffs despite the East all-star center on his team

But by each player's 3rd healthy season (06' and 88'), both won 50 games and made the 2nd round.. in year 4, the champs swept lebron in the Finals and needed 6 to beat MJ in ecf... After that, lebron lost 6 times as the 1 or 2 seed, compared to zero for MJ (6-0)

[RRR3]

Again, those were his first couple seasons, where lebron also struggled and couldn't make the playoffs despite the East all-star center on his team

But by each player's 3rd healthy season (06' and 88'), both won 50 games and made the 2nd round.. in year 4, the champs swept lebron and needed 6 to beat MJ.. After that, lebron lost 6 times as the 1 or 2 seed, compared to zero for MJ (6-0)
LeBron went 42-40 his second year. MJ couldn’t top that record till year 4, Scottie Pippen’s rookie year (coincidence?). Not LeBron’s fault he didn’t play in a joke of a conference where you could make the playoffs with a losing record like MJ did

[3ball]

LeBron went 42-40 his second year. MJ couldn’t top that record till year 4, Scottie Pippen’s rookie year (coincidence?). Not LeBron’s fault he didn’t play in a joke of a conference where you could make the playoffs with a losing record like MJ did
Lebron had the east all-star center in 05'; MJ had nothing close a top 3 player at their position in the conference (all-star), let alone at center

And ur splitting hairs - 40 wins, 42 wins.. no difference

Again, by each player's 3rd healthy season (06' and 88'), both won 50 games and made the 2nd round.. in year 4, the champs swept lebron in the Finals and needed 6 to beat MJ in ecf... After that, lebron lost 6 times as the 1 or 2 seed, compared to zero for MJ (6-0)

[RRR3]

Lebron had the east all-star center in 05'; MJ had nothing close a top 3 player at their position in the conference (all-star), let alone at center

And ur splitting hairs - 40 wins, 42 wins.. no difference

Again, by each player's 3rd healthy season (06' and 88'), both won 50 games and made the 2nd round.. in year 4, the champs swept lebron in the Finals and needed 6 to beat MJ in ecf... After that, lebron lost 6 times as the 1 or 2 seed, compared to zero for MJ (6-0)
Big Z was a weak ass all-star :roll:

Had his best seasons with LeJesus making him look better too.

Meanwhile MJ had 22-23 PPG scorer Woolridge and double double machine/defensive dynamo Oakley

[tpols]

Giannis and Jokic aren't doing anything that LeBron didn't do in his first stint in Cleveland...

Besides, both Jokic and Giannis this year are playing with a supporting cast FAR better then what LeBron had in his first stint.


Jokic has nobody that's even as good as mo Williams... Or big z or antwan jamison. He's playing with zero all stars.

[RRR3]

Jokic has nobody that's even as good as mo Williams... Or big z or antwan jamison. He's playing with zero all stars.
“Mo Williams>Paul Millsap and Gary Harris”-Ttrolls


:facepalm

[tpols]

[QUOTE=RRR3]

[3ball]

[QUOTE=RRR3]

[RRR3]

Gary Harris and millsap have been in and out hurt all year. You just exposed yourself.
Meltdown.

They’ve still played plenty and he has Jamal Murray who’s a Mo Williams level player. Plus Monte Morris has been great.

[red1]

3ball wants players to do things his idol never even did.


MJ didn't win shit without pippen, one of grant/rodman, phil jackson and he got his father killed along the way. If that doesn't knock him down a peg then I don't know what will.

[3ball]

3ball wants players to do things his idol never even did.


MJ didn't win shit without pippen, one of grant/rodman, phil jackson and he got his father killed along the way. If that doesn't knock him down a peg then I don't know what will.
34-year old jordan was 24-11 with the 1 seed when Pippen missed the first 35 games in 98'

So he was doing the same as Jokic

Much better actually, since Jordan swept all the MVP's in 1998 over all the young guns like Shaq, Hill, Penny, etc... Along with scoring title and 1st team all-defense

Why can't lebron win MVP and be the best player like 35-year old MJ?.. what am I asking lebron to do that MJ didn't do?

[red1]

34-year old jordan was 24-11 with the 1 seed when Pippen missed the first 35 games in 98'

So he was doing the same as Jokic

Much better actually, since Jordan swept all the MVP's in 1998 over all the young guns like Shaq, Hill, Penny, etc... Along with scoring title and 1st team all-defense

Why can't lebron win MVP and be the best player like 35-year old MJ?.. what am I asking lebron to do that MJ didn't do?
You're a joke bitch. I'll never let you live down the fact that you think mo williams was equal to scottie and that the rest of the championship bulls and the 2010 cavs were equal in talent.


If you can't understand basic things like that then you are clearly unreasonable and unintelligent.

[tpols]

Meltdown.

They’ve still played plenty and he has Jamal Murray who’s a Mo Williams level player. Plus Monte Morris has been great.


Its not a meltdown. Gary Harris has done absolutely nothing in the nba and isn't even close to being named an all star like mo was. He's been a huge disappointment this season.

Jamal Murray isn't even as good as mike conley or past years dame who couldn't make all star teams. He's a loong way from one.


Gotta step your troll game up.

[3ball]

You're a joke bitch. I'll never let you live down the fact that you think mo williams was equal to scottie and that the rest of the championship bulls and the 2010 cavs were equal in talent.


If you can't understand basic things like that then you are clearly unreasonable and unintelligent.
I said Mo Williams was better than 89' Scottie, which is obviously true.. Alot of guys were, including all-star Zydrunas, 05' Hughes, 10' Shaq, Jamison, 10' varejao all-defense, 14/10 drew gooden, and more

None of lebron's casts were as bad as jordan's 85-89' casts, which is why jordan won less games despite producing more than lebron... i.e. lebron's 28/8/7 got 66 wins, while Jordan's 33/8/8 got 47 wins. So Lebron's better cast was filling the gap.. :confusedshrug:
.

[Bronbron23]

Lebron did that in a weak East that Kidd, Iverson, and Dwight all romped to the Finals with weak casts in.. so it means nothing.. lebron actually missed the Finals and lost to Dwight during those years

And why not this year for the so-called goat, like MJ did when he was 34 and pippen was out (24-11, 1 seed) - mj showed he was DESERVING of the praise by being better than the young guns and winning MVP over Shaq, Hill, Hakeem, Penny, Duncan, Kidd and the like.. whereas ur making excuses for lebron not being the best, or being able to carry a team to a high seed
.
The east wasn't amazing during those years I'll admit but there were still good teams. He took Detroit and Celtics both to game sevens in the Eastern conference finals which is pretty good considering his team. Until this year the east hasn't been that good and Greek hasn't made his team a contender yet and his team is actually pretty good. The bucks are much better than brons early cavs team was. Jokic may make his team a contender but it's yet to be seen. I wouldn't be surprised if mavs don't get out of the first round. LeBron has much more success with crap teams then both of them has.

Also LeBron got 2 wins against that warriors team in the finals with absolutely no one. Neither Greek or jokic could of done that.

[3ball]

The east wasn't amazing during those years I'll admit but there were still good teams. He took Detroit and Celtics both to game sevens in the Eastern conference finals which is pretty good considering his team.


Yeah but that's not remarkable because a lot of teams go 7 games and lose (i.e. Starks took the bulls 7, horford took the 08' Celtics 7.. countless more). And one's own play can't be a reason for a given loss, as lebron's was in 08'

And I understand that lebron was the underdog those years, but not as much as MJ - Lebron had 50-win 4 seeds, including 2-time all-star Zydrunas, 14/10 drew gooden, and Hughes coming of an all-league season - that's a superior cast to 89' pippen and his 47-win 6 seed..

again, mj's 85-89' casts are worse than any of lebron's. This includes lebron's early casts (Zydrunas, Gooden, Hughes), to his 60-win casts (Jamison, Mo, Shaq, Varejao) - all these guys had all-star or all-defense selections (except Gooden), while mj's cast had zero.. let that sink in - again, lebron's superior cast allowed him to win more despite less personal production compared to MJ, so it all adds up





Until this year the east hasn't been that good and Greek hasn't made his team a contender yet and his team is actually pretty good. The bucks are much better than brons early cavs team was. Jokic may make his team a contender but it's yet to be seen. I wouldn't be surprised if mavs don't get out of the first round. LeBron has much more success with crap teams then Jokic or Giannis has.


Because he's older and has more runs period.. let's see what these guys do. If either gets to the Finals this year, it will be far more impressive than any of lebron's in a weak conference

The reality is that Iverson/Kidd/Dwight snuck into the Finals during down years - lebron did this in 07', but missed out on 2 more down years in 09/10, despite being the prohibitive favorite both years.. that's a legit knock on lebron.. :confusedshrug:





Also LeBron got 2 wins against that warriors team in the finals with absolutely no one. Neither Greek or jokic could of done that.


Not true

Their teams don't need them to dominate the ball and get 40 because they rely on ball movement to go off, which quite frankly, they would do whether Jokic was there or not (so they don't crater when he leaves like lebron's teams)

The Lakers were 7th in assists last year.. 16th this year.. and no, I'm not saying they're better without lebron - I'm showing you the lebron effect (less ball movement, and therefore a lower team ceiling than other stars)
.

[bigkingsfan]

Pistons league assist ranked
1990 - 18th
1989- 17th
1988- 14th

Bulls had the better assist team every year and lost. :oldlol:

[tpols]

Pistons league assist ranked
1990 - 18th
1989- 17th
1988- 14th

Bulls had the better assist team every year and lost. :oldlol:


Youre making his point for him. The bulls made up their talent deficit by playing with better teamwork which is why the series were close. If mj played Iso ball he wouldve been swept.

[bigkingsfan]

Youre making his point for him. The bulls made up their talent deficit by playing with better teamwork which is why the series were close. If mj played Iso ball he wouldve been swept.
MJ stats was worse every single year vs regular season.

[3ball]

Pistons league assist ranked
1990 - 18th
1989- 17th
1988- 14th

Bulls had the better assist team every year and lost. :oldlol:
I never said you couldn't win a ring as a low-assist team - it's just harder, and requires more talent, as the Pistons had (3x all-stars at every starting spot), and they were also changing the game defensively

So it took great talent and extraordinary means to win that way

Shaq's Lakers won this way too, and others..

but again, it takes extra talent and/or extraordinary means to win with a lower assist team than the average champion.. this is intuitive, and lebron's 3/9 winning frequency in the Finals further demonstrates that it's harder to win with low assist teams

[bigkingsfan]

I never said you couldn't win a ring as a low-assist team - it's just harder, and requires more talent, as the Pistons had (3x all-stars at every starting spot), and they were also changing the game defensively

So it took great talent and extraordinary means to win that way

Shaq's Lakers won this way too, and others..

but again, it takes extra talent and/or extraordinary means to win with a lower assist team than the average champion.. this is intuitive, and lebron's 3/9 winning frequency in the Finals further demonstrates that it's harder to win with low assist teams
Dumars and Rodman didn't make the all star until 1990. Their talent was about the same as any other title contenders back then.

[red1]

I said Mo Williams was better than 89' Scottie, which is obviously true.. Alot of guys were, including all-star Zydrunas, 05' Hughes, 10' Shaq, Jamison, 10' varejao all-defense, 14/10 drew gooden, and more

None of lebron's casts were as bad as jordan's 85-89' casts, which is why jordan won less games despite producing more than lebron... i.e. lebron's 28/8/7 got 66 wins, while Jordan's 33/8/8 got 47 wins. So Lebron's better cast was filling the gap.. :confusedshrug:
.
Dude that isn't true. I've gone back and forth with you (foolishly in hindsight) enough times to know that you are absolutely delusional in the way you discredit jordan's teammates and retardedly elevate lebron's cavs teammates prior to 2010.

You are absolutely one of the most narrowminded and delusional posters here. Everything is a threat to jordan in your eyes even when it realistically shouldnt be. I've seen you knock kobe curry practically every single player except jordan.

[Celtics 1825]

The Nuggets are a pretender

[red1]

34-year old jordan was 24-11 with the 1 seed when Pippen missed the first 35 games in 98'

So he was doing the same as Jokic

Much better actually, since Jordan swept all the MVP's in 1998 over all the young guns like Shaq, Hill, Penny, etc... Along with scoring title and 1st team all-defense

Why can't lebron win MVP and be the best player like 35-year old MJ?.. what am I asking lebron to do that MJ didn't do?
shut the **** up you lying piece of shit. jordan never won a single chip with a "a no-star cast"


in fact he didn't win a single chip or make the finals a single time without scottie pippen another all-time player. that alone discredits your entire thread.

[NBAGOAT]

i've been following the nuggets decently closely since fantasy and friend is a nuggets fan.

Malik Beasley and Monte Morris have been fantastic, enough where den fans are considering trading away gary harris. Some of the best 6th and 7th guys in the league. Millsap has been meh offensively but can by himself keep the defense above average(and he's played most of the season unlike harris).

Jokic's got to be one of the more portable players of all time however especially at center. Not many superstars are ok with taking <10 shots a game sometimes while being capable or putting up 40 in all sorts of ways. The passing is unprecedented from a big man too.

Comparing Jokic to Lebron is irrelevant however. Lebron missed 15 games. Jokic plays center, yea he cant be too ball dominant.

Edit: and this team is maybe not a playoff team imo without Jokic. Dont think you want to be arguing that the team can do very well without him.

[3ball]

Dumars and Rodman didn't make the all star until 1990. Their talent was about the same as any other title contenders back then.
The average champion ranks about 7th in assists

So all else being equal, your odds are longer if you rank lower than this

Regarding the Pistons - other than the current Warriors, show me a team that had 3x all-stars at 4 spots and 2x dpoy at the other spot.. the bad boys were among the most decorated teams ever... And they changed the game defensively.. this is the kind of talent and/or abnormal circumstance you need to win as a low-assist team

[3ball]

i've been following the nuggets decently closely since fantasy and friend is a nuggets fan.

Malik Beasley and Monte Morris have been fantastic, enough where den fans are considering trading away gary harris. Millsap can by himself keep the defense above average.

Jokic's got to be one of the more portable players of all time howeverespecially at center. Not many superstars are ok with taking <10 shots a game sometimes while being capable or putting up 40 in all sorts of ways. The passing is unprecedented from a big man too.

Comparing Jokic to Lebron is irrelevant however. Lebron missed 15 games. Jokic plays center, yea he cant be too ball dominant.
I'm not comparing them other than say lebron should have a contender like Jokic

Even before the injury, people were lauding the Lakers just being over 0.500, while Jokic and Giannis were leading the league and quite frankly, playing better than Lebron. Lebron hasn't won MVP since 2013 and has become overrated..

[bigkingsfan]

The average champion ranks about 7th in assists

So all else being equal, your odds are longer if you rank lower than this

Regarding the Pistons - other than the current Warriors, show me a team that had 3x all-stars at 4 spots and 2x dpoy at the other spot.. the bad boys were among the most decorated teams ever... And they changed the game defensively.. this is the kind of talent and/or abnormal circumstance you need to win as a low-assist team
They had exactly five all stars total (isiah 3, rodman/dumars 1), and one DPOY when they were contenders, 88-90. The Warriors nearly had that much in a single year 2016-17.

1991 is omitted, according to you, #3 seed doesn't count, and they only won 50 games. Not a contender.

[NBAGOAT]

The average champion ranks about 7th in assists

So all else being equal, your odds are longer if you rank lower than this

Regarding the Pistons - other than the current Warriors, show me a team that had 3x all-stars at 4 spots and 2x dpoy at the other spot.. the bad boys were among the most decorated teams ever... And they changed the game defensively.. this is the kind of talent and/or abnormal circumstance you need to win as a low-assist team

Tor's got Kawhi, Lowry, Gasol so multiple dpoy winners. Ibaka has had a career resurgence and siakam is an absolute monster future all star type. Multiple dpoy's and like 4 guys who've been on all defensive teams.

Phi's got 2 all-defensive team guys in embiid and butler who are some of the best at their position. Embiid is a potential future dpoy(he was 2nd last year) and i see simmons as making a few defensive teams in the future.

You obviously dont pay attention. If it wasnt for the warriors, there be quite a few teams considered as championship worthy talent wise

[NBAGOAT]

I'm not comparing them other than say lebron should have a contender like Jokic

Even before the injury, people were lauding the Lakers just being over 0.500, while Jokic and Giannis were leading the league and quite frankly, playing better than Lebron. Lebron hasn't won MVP since 2013 and has become overrated..

giannis and jokic are better than an older bron who's missed games. Why not start it that way? You will get nowhere trying to compare them to prime bron however by looking at the best players on like the 09 cavs. Even like 18 Bron was the best or 2nd best player in the league so no he hasnt been that overrated. Even haters dont believe prime bron is worse deep down. Ofc ik you only care about the playoffs so we'll see how playoff bron does.

[tpols]

i've been following the nuggets decently closely since fantasy and friend is a nuggets fan.

Malik Beasley and Monte Morris have been fantastic, enough where den fans are considering trading away gary harris. Some of the best 6th and 7th guys in the league. Millsap has been meh offensively but can by himself keep the defense above average(and he's played most of the season unlike harris).

Jokic's got to be one of the more portable players of all time however especially at center. Not many superstars are ok with taking <10 shots a game sometimes while being capable or putting up 40 in all sorts of ways. The passing is unprecedented from a big man too.

Comparing Jokic to Lebron is irrelevant however. Lebron missed 15 games. Jokic plays center, yea he cant be too ball dominant.

Edit: and this team is maybe not a playoff team imo without Jokic. Dont think you want to be arguing that the team can do very well without him.


Malik Beasley and morris going off is a penchant of their elite teamwork though. That's the hallmark of a team,with great chemistry, spurs like, next man up and they still compete big time

[NBAGOAT]

Malik Beasley and morris going off is a penchant of their elite teamwork though. That's the hallmark of a team,with great chemistry, spurs like, next man up and they still compete big time

you're not giving them enough credit. Countless young guys have been in great team situations and disappointed even though they showed potential. I'm gonna throw shade but see terry rozier in boston. also feels like i've been waiting for 5 years for patty mills to become a starting level pg and he just hasnt

[3ball]

shut the **** up you lying piece of shit. jordan never won a single chip with a "a no-star cast"


in fact he didn't win a single chip or make the finals a single time without scottie pippen another all-time player. that alone discredits your entire thread.
Nobody said anything about winning a ring - just have a top team like Jokic and Giannis, and/or be the best player (MVP).. lebron doesn't seem capable of either right now

But regarding winning a ring - almost no one wins with no other stars.. Hakeem did in 94' (but MJ didn't play).. Dirk did in 11' (but he benefitted from an unexpected, historic choke).

MJ still took the Pistons 6 games with nobody Pippen and the 7 games with Chris Middleton in 90'

I would argue that pippen WASN'T a star from 88-91' and that MJ had 3 championship-competitive runs with a non-star, non-prime pippen (89-91').. people didn't even know he was a good defender until the 91' Finals.

Believe me - if lebron had a deep run with these Lakers like 89' and 90' MJ did, guys like Ingram and Kuzma would start to become stars and perceived as such like pippen was...
.

[Real14]

5 star thread indeed:applause:

[3ball]

1991 is omitted, according to you, #3 seed doesn't count, and they only won 50 games. Not a contender.
.
MJ beat back-to-back champs, which Lebron never did

And isiah/dumars/rodman were 29/27/29, whereas lebron mainly beat old guys (35/34/36 kg/truth/allen... 36/35/32 duncan/manu/parker).. :oldlol:



They had exactly five all stars total (isiah 3, rodman/dumars 1), and one DPOY when they were contenders, 88-90. The Warriors nearly had that much in a single year 2016-17.


Laimbeer and Aguirre were 3x all-stars

They were really good players like any former perennial all-stars are

Again, not many teams field 3x all-stars at every starting spot.. infact, only the bad boys and these warriors do.. I don't see any other 5-all-star lineups. But maybe there's one or 2.. it's irrelevant - the bad boys were stacked with game-changing defense, so they could win without all the typical things champs have (team assists)

[RRR3]

Its not a meltdown. Gary Harris has done absolutely nothing in the nba and isn't even close to being named an all star like mo was. He's been a huge disappointment this season.

Jamal Murray isn't even as good as mike conley or past years dame who couldn't make all star teams. He's a loong way from one.


Gotta step your troll game up.
Mo Williams wasn

[bigkingsfan]

MJ beat back-to-back champs, which Lebron never did

And isiah/dumars/rodman were 29/27/29, whereas lebron mainly beat old guys (35/34/36 kg/truth/allen... 36/35/32 duncan/manu/parker).. :oldlol:



Laimbeer and Aguirre were 3x all-stars

They were really good players like any former perennial all-stars are

Again, not many teams field 3x all-stars at every starting spot.. infact, only the bad boys and these warriors do.. I don't see any other 5-all-star lineups. But maybe there's one or 2.. it's irrelevant - the bad boys were stacked with game-changing defense, so they could win without all the typical things champs have (team assists)
MJ beat a 50 win team, as the huge favorites, after losing three consecutive times, congrats. :confusedshrug:

Aguirre was no longer an all star once traded to Det. Laimbeer wasn't an all star either once Det were contenders. You want to cherry pick the all star thing, then the Bulls had four all stars in 1993, since BJ and Horace were all stars right after.

[3ball]

MJ beat a 50 win team, as the huge favorites, after losing three consecutive times, congrats. :confusedshrug:


Bulls weren't favorites heading into the 91' season.. the Pistons were favored to 3-peat

Lebron was the favorite heading into the 11' and 15' seasons.. imagine thinking that a guy who won all his rings by landing on teams favored to win it in year 1 (11' & 15'), was better than a guy that built a lottery team into champion over 7 years, knocking off the dominant dynasty along the way

It's ludicrous.. for example, imagine lebron landing on these Lakers as a rookie, and building them into 3-peat champions, including ending a goat dynasty while they were still on the right side of 30.. and then proceeding to win 6 in 8 years.. :facepalm .. :bowdown:






Aguirre was no longer an all star once traded to Det. Laimbeer wasn't an all star either once Det were contenders. You want to cherry pick the all star thing, then the Bulls had four all stars in 1993, since BJ and Horace were all stars right after

.
Sure that's fine, and we'd just look into it and see that "oh look, laimbeer and Aguirre were perennial all-stars and horace/bj just one-timers.. looks like only the Pistons had perennial all-stars at every spot and the bulls just MJ/scottie"

[RRR3]

Bulls weren't favorites heading into the 91' season.. the Pistons were favored to 3-peat

Lebron was the favorite heading into the 11' and 15' seasons.. imagine thinking that a guy who won all his rings by landing on teams favored to win it in year 1 (11' & 15'), was better than a guy that built a lottery team into champion over 7 years, knocking off the dominant dynasty along the way

It's ludicrous.. for example, imagine lebron landing on these Lakers as a rookie, and building them into 3-peat champions, including ending a goat dynasty while they were still on the right side of 30.. and then proceeding to win 6 in 8 years.. :facepalm .. :bowdown:




Sure that's fine, and we'd just look into it and see that "oh look, laimbeer and Aguirre were perennial all-stars and horace/bj just one-timers.. looks like only the Pistons had perennial all-stars at every spot and the bulls just MJ/scottie"
Except Horace and BJ only became All-Stars after MJ retired for the first time. Clearly he was holding them back.

[bigkingsfan]

Bulls weren't favorites heading into the 91' season.. the Pistons were favored to 3-peat

Lebron was the favorite heading into the 11' and 15' seasons.. imagine thinking that a guy who won all his rings by landing on teams favored to win it in year 1 (11' & 15'), was better than a guy that built a lottery team into champion over 7 years, knocking off the dominant dynasty along the way

It's ludicrous.. for example, imagine lebron landing on these Lakers as a rookie, and building them into 3-peat champions, including ending a goat dynasty while they were still on the right side of 30.. and then proceeding to win 6 in 8 years.. :facepalm .. :bowdown:




Sure that's fine, and we'd just look into it and see that "oh look, laimbeer and Aguirre were perennial all-stars and horace/bj just one-timers.. looks like only the Pistons had perennial all-stars at every spot"
When you lose to the same team three times in a row, who's going to bet on you in the preseason?

Perennial all-stars, years ago. Or all stars the following year, which would you rather have going foward. Millsap was also a perennial all star, Middleton is an all star this year, so it kills your topic already.

[3ball]

Except Horace and BJ only became All-Stars after MJ retired for the first time. Clearly he was holding them back.
Right. But nobody thinks that because everyone knows they were bit players that grew by leaps and bounds next to MJ, and averaged near their career highs alongside MJ (near full capacity).. compare to lebron, where most teammates don't get anywhere near their highs alongside him

[RRR3]

Right. But nobody thinks that because everyone knows they were bit players that grew by leaps and bounds next to MJ, and averaged near their career highs alongside MJ (near full capacity).. compare to lebron, where most teammates don't get anywhere near their highs alongside him
All-stars without cancerous MJ ball. Scrub role players with MJ ball.





Hmm.

[3ball]

When you lose to the same team three times in a row, who's going to bet on you in the preseason?

Perennial all-stars, years ago. Or all stars the following year, which would you rather have going foward. Milsapp was also a perennial all star, Middleton is an all star this year, so it kills your topic already.
It's all splitting hairs

The Pistons were stacked with a cutting edge, abnormally good defensive style (even for champions), so they could win with low assists.

Now in lebron's case, his teams couldn't play good defense because of lebron - no spur or warrior scored more than 2 points above their RS average in the 14/15/17/18 Finals except Iggy (8.5), Durant (10.1) and Kawhi (5.0)... (edit: McGee 4.0)

But lebron's teams were stacked like the Pistons, so he could overcome his team's lack of assists or ball movement and win a few Finals (although mostly losing and getting massively out-assisted)

[SpaceJam]

I am 100% certain OP has not seen a Denver game in years. That team is very good.

OP openly admitted to not actually watching basketball for some time now

[bigkingsfan]

It's all splitting hairs

The Pistons were stacked with a cutting edge, abnormally good defensive style (even for champions), so they could win with low assists.

Now in lebron's case, his teams couldn't play good defense because of lebron - no spur or warrior scored more than 2 points above their RS average in the 14/15/17/18 Finals except Iggy (8.5), Durant (10.1) and Kawhi (5.0)... (edit: McGee 4.0)

But lebron's teams were stacked like the Pistons, so he could overcome his team's lack of assists or ball movement and win a few Finals (although mostly losing and getting massively out-assisted)
MJ had worse stats every time he faced the pistons. In fact, in 88, it was 7.6 points difference. If he was just average they win 3/4 times.

[tpols]

you're not giving them enough credit. Countless young guys have been in great team situations and disappointed even though they showed potential. I'm gonna throw shade but see terry rozier in boston. also feels like i've been waiting for 5 years for patty mills to become a starting level pg and he just hasnt


Boston has an awesome culture and coach.

Top 5 best cultures

Golden state
Boston
Utah
Denver
Mavs


Hm heat & spurs

[RRR3]

MJ had worse stats every time he faced the pistons. In fact, in 88, it was 7.6 points difference. If he was just average they win 3/4 times.
Holy shit what a choker. 7.6 LESS?!?!? :facepalm

[3ball]

Perennial all-stars, years ago. Or all stars the following year, which would you rather have going foward. Milsapp was also a perennial all star, Middleton is an all star this year, so it kills your topic already.

.
Exactly

MJ nearly won the 1990 ring over a dynasty with first-time all-star like Middleton getting a 12.2 gamescore in ecf (average is 15), and no one else over 2.9..

So he did way better than harden did last year by nearly beating the warriors

Ultimately, Giannis or Jokic could match 90' MJ and 18' harden by nearly beating the warriors, and lebron has several all-star caliber talents and could do the same..





When you lose to the same team three times in a row, who's going to bet on you in the preseason?

.
Imagine if lebron developed a better team than the warriors

So he lost to the warriors for 3 years, but after he beat the warriors just that 1st time, it was over.. those warriors were done forever, because their style had been destroyed and superceded

That's what the Bulls did to the Pistons - their brand of ball was over... Free-floating play and goat offense/team ORtg was back, after the Pistons hi-jacked it from the Lakers

Otoh, we don't even consider lebron developing a team that the warriors couldn't beat because lebron-ball is so obviously inferior - so it's not even a consideration in our minds.. only a "more stacked team" could beat these warriors.. better teamwork and communication on defense isn't even considered until the next time it wins (every June)

Unfortunately, lebron-ball at it's HEIGHT of teamwork capability (66 wins in 09') couldn't beat underdog Dwight's nobody team.. it was simply a shallow way to play, which was confirmed when it didn't scale up (jstern) with additional talent in Miami, peaking again at 66 wins.. it was ultimately blown away in 14' by some old vets, which actually ended the Miami iteration of lebron-ball - lebron upgraded to the 2nd team PF and the latest perimeter stud/all-star mvp.. In other words, the latest and greatest.. still resulted in inferior brand of ball, offenses, and teams to the best, and struggle on the championship level
.

[bigkingsfan]

Exactly

MJ nearly won the 1990 ring over a dynasty with first-time all-star like Middleton getting a 12.2 gamescore in ecf (average is 15), and no one else over 2.9..

So he did way better than harden did last year by nearly beating the warriors

Ultimately, Giannis or Jokic could match 90' MJ and 18' harden by nearly beating the warriors, and lebron has several all-star caliber talents and could do the same..



Imagine if lebron developed a better team than the warriors

So he lost to the warriors for 3 years, but after he beat the warriors just that 1st time, it was over.. those warriors were done forever, because their style had been destroyed and superceded

That's what the Bulls did to the Pistons - their brand of ball was over... Free-floating play and goat offense/team ORtg was back, after the Pistons hi-jacked it from the Lakers

Otoh, we don't even consider lebron developing a team that the warriors couldn't beat because lebron-ball is so obviously inferior - so it's not even a consideration in our minds.. only a "more stacked team" could beat these warriors.. better teamwork and communication on defense isn't even considered until the next time it wins (every June)

Unfortunately, lebron-ball at it's HEIGHT of teamwork capability (66 wins in 09') couldn't beat underdog Dwight's nobody team.. it was simply a shallow way to play, which was confirmed when it didn't scale up (jstern) with additional talent in Miami, peaking again at 66 wins.. it was ultimately blown away in 14' by some old vets, which actually ended the Miami iteration of lebron-ball - lebron upgraded to the 2nd team PF and the latest perimeter stud/all-star mvp.. In other words, the latest and greatest.. still resulted in inferior brand of ball, offenses, and teams to the best, and struggle on the championship level
.
Nope, neither came close to winning, that would be game 7 of the nba finals. The 08 Cavs didn't nearly win a title because they took Boston to 7. You keep ignoring MJ played worse every time he faced the Pistons. :confusedshrug:

[FireDavidKahn]

LeBron is better than Jokic. Look at what he did in Cleveland when he was younger. Nuggets have some amazing young talent, Murray is probably going to be a future star. Yeah Nuggets don't have another star currently and Jokic is an MVP candidate but even as a huge Nuggets fan who isn't surprised by Jokic being a superstar this is crazy.

Jokic's season is wildly underrated tho. If any other star was doing what Jokic has done with all the injuries it'd be story #1. I get people don't care about triple doubles but he's not Westbrook. Jokic doesn't care about stats. He's also a C. He might already be the GOAT passing C already. He's finally become aggressive with his scoring as well which was always there he's just so selfless.

I could see the Nuggets slipping a little bit in the second half. Were still like 2 years away IMO.

He is. No offense to someone like Bill Walton but Jokic is simply better than any center in history when it comes to passing. I don't care if Jokic only has a few years in the league, he is the best.

As for Jokic, I believe it's the media. Most fans, that I see anyway, always seem to recognize how good he is.

[3ball]

Nope, neither came close to winning, that would be game 7 of the nba finals. The 08 Cavs didn't nearly win a title because they took Boston to 7. You keep ignoring MJ played worse every time he faced the Pistons. :confusedshrug:
Both teams averaged less against each other. It was a defensive battle

MJ's 32/6/6 was still better than everyone's career averages in the history of the game... no one even averages 30/5/5 except MJ, and this was against the best reputation for defense ever

And the 90' Pistons beat Portland in 5 easy games in the Finals, versus 7 tough games against the bulls in ecf.. it's clear the bulls would've destroyed the blazers in the Finals if not for pippen's choke in game 7.. Whereas the 08' Cavs were still 2 rounds away with no abnormal event that prevented victory like pippen's migraine

Again, MJ nearly made the 90' Finals over a dynasty with a worse sidekick than Shawn Marion and basically did the same in 89' with no sidekick at all - that's more impressive than harden with cp3.

so Giannis, Jokic, and Lebron can match MJ by beating or nearly beating a dynasty in the WCF, since they all have comparable supporting talent to 89' and 90' MJ..




I've a dynasty (pulled an 18' Harden) with a 1st time all-star

[Bronbron23]

Yeah but that's not remarkable because a lot of teams go 7 games and lose (i.e. Starks took the bulls 7, horford took the 08' Celtics 7.. countless more). And one's own play can't be a reason for a given loss, as lebron's was in 08'

And I understand that lebron was the underdog those years, but not as much as MJ - Lebron had 50-win 4 seeds, including 2-time all-star Zydrunas, 14/10 drew gooden, and Hughes coming of an all-league season - that's a superior cast to 89' pippen and his 47-win 6 seed..

again, mj's 85-89' casts are worse than any of lebron's. This includes lebron's early casts (Zydrunas, Gooden, Hughes), to his 60-win casts (Jamison, Mo, Shaq, Varejao) - all these guys had all-star or all-defense selections (except Gooden), while mj's cast had zero.. let that sink in - again, lebron's superior cast allowed him to win more despite less personal production compared to MJ, so it all adds up



Because he's older and has more runs period.. let's see what these guys do. If either gets to the Finals this year, it will be far more impressive than any of lebron's in a weak conference

The reality is that Iverson/Kidd/Dwight snuck into the Finals during down years - lebron did this in 07', but missed out on 2 more down years in 09/10, despite being the prohibitive favorite both years.. that's a legit knock on lebron.. :confusedshrug:



Not true

Their teams don't need them to dominate the ball and get 40 because they rely on ball movement to go off, which quite frankly, they would do whether Jokic was there or not (so they don't crater when he leaves like lebron's teams)

The Lakers were 7th in assists last year.. 16th this year.. and no, I'm not saying they're better without lebron - I'm showing you the lebron effect (less ball movement, and therefore a lower team ceiling than other stars)
.
You've seem to try to change the debate from LeBron vs jokic and Greek to to Bron vs mj. I'm not debating that mj is better than Bron. I'm a fan of both and have stated numerous times that mj is better. Jokic and Greek are definitely not though and that was the main discussion.

[3ball]

You've seem to try to change the debate from LeBron vs jokic and Greek to to Bron vs mj. I'm not debating that mj is better than Bron. I'm a fan of both and have stated numerous times that mj is better. Jokic and Greek are definitely not though and that was the main discussion.
How do you know Giannis isn't better

He's carrying his team as much as lebron did last year or this year, except Middletown is a 1st time all-star, while Love is a perennial all-star.

Lebron simply had 2 straight seasons of upheaval that created underdogs

Whereas Giannis is establishing a favorite with a similar cast

And yes, MJ would be like Giannis and Jokic - he'd establish favorites with high assist teams, while lebron-ball creates chemistry issues and ultimately upheaval..

[bigkingsfan]

Both teams averaged less against each other. It was a defensive battle

MJ's 32/6/6 was still better than everyone's career averages in the history of the game... no one even averages 30/5/5 except MJ, and this was against the best reputation for defense ever

And the 90' Pistons beat Portland in 5 easy games in the Finals, versus 7 tough games against the bulls in ecf.. it's clear the bulls would've destroyed the blazers in the Finals if not for pippen's choke in game 7.. Whereas the 08' Cavs were still 2 rounds away with no abnormal event that prevented victory like pippen's migraine

Again, MJ nearly made the 90' Finals over a dynasty with a worse sidekick than Shawn Marion and basically did the same in 89' with no sidekick at all - that's more impressive than harden with cp3.

so Giannis, Jokic, and Lebron can match MJ by beating or nearly beating a dynasty in the WCF, since they all have comparable supporting talent to 89' and 90' MJ..




I've a dynasty (pulled an 18' Harden) with a 1st time all-star
Sounds like a bunch of excuses, when you're the supposed GOAT, your numbers don't go down every single year.

More Goalpost moving, so the Rockets sweep the 95 bulls, since the Bull lost in the 2nd round.

[sbw19]

It's the altitude man. Nuggets have like the best home record in the league. Give LeGOAT that altitude and he loses maybe a couple games at worst.

LeBron has no altitude advantage whatsoever. You gotta factor that in.

[Akeem34TheDream]

It's the altitude man. Nuggets have like the best home record in the league. Give LeGOAT that altitude and he loses maybe a couple games at worst.

LeBron has no altitude advantage whatsoever. You gotta factor that in.

Why are you writing in blue? Does it have a meaning?

[BigShotBob]

He is. No offense to someone like Bill Walton but Jokic is simply better than any center in history when it comes to passing. I don't care if Jokic only has a few years in the league, he is the best.

As for Jokic, I believe it's the media. Most fans, that I see anyway, always seem to recognize how good he is.

Please watch more basketball, jesus christ.

I love Jokic but your statement is asinine and could only be regurgitated by a toddler that has just started watching basketball in 2016.

[aj1987]

Again, 3ball, why did MJ go 1-9 with a no-star cast, instead of fielding a contender?


Why are you writing in blue? Does it have a meaning?
Might be her favorite color? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Again, 3ball, why did MJ go 1-9 with a no-star cast, instead of fielding a contender?


He had no all-star teammate like Lebron did his first couple seasons

But don't blame MJ and Lebron for having bad records and low seeds in their first couple seasons

You shouldn't criticize them for that. By their third healthy seasons (06' and 88'), both guys won 50 games with 3 seeds and made the 2nd round.. In their 4th season, the champs swept Lebron in the Finals (22 on 36%), but took 6 games to beat MJ in ecf (30 on 46%).

MJ with the statistical edge, but similar team accomplishments thru 4 seasons

But beginning in their 5th season onwards, lebron lost 6 times with 1 or 2 seeds, while MJ lost zero - he's the only top 10 player to never lose with 1 or 2 seed (most unbeatable player, aka, goat).. ultimately, we can argue till the cows come home about who had more help and whose losses were more justified - but only MJ was unbeatable when he had a cast; whereas everyone else got beat with a 1 or 2 seed

(in their 4th seasons, MJ's 6 seed lost in 6 games to the champs, while lebron's 2-seed was swept.. that's a clear distinction showing that MJ was better.. :confusedshrug:)

Btw, comparing by AGE makes no sense because rookie MJ was 22, and lebron was in his 4th season by 22, and had 4 years to develop his team.. nonetheless, MJ's rookie year (22) and 3rd season (24) are the only years where lebron had better team accomplishments; MJ always had the statistical edge.
.

[Ass Dan]

Jamal Murray is not a star (yet) but he has a lot of moments and has done a lot of scoring in the final minutes of games.

He has star-like qualities and will be a star.

Jokic is the REAL unicorn in this league. People need to realize how different the game is with his fingerprints.

But he and Murray go hand in glove.

Would absolutely love to see a Klay Thompson type in Denver. They would become near impossible to beat.

[NBAGOAT]

Please watch more basketball, jesus christ.

I love Jokic but your statement is asinine and could only be regurgitated by a toddler that has just started watching basketball in 2016.

name your guys who are better than? Sabonis sure but his prime wasnt in the NBA.

Respected analysts have parroted this point too not just some kids

[superduper]

Denver has some decent slightly above average role players and potential perennial 20+ppg scorer type player in Murray but their cast is being way over rated right now. They would not be near the position they are right now without Jokic.

[NBAGOAT]

Denver has some decent slightly above average role players and potential perennial 20+ppg scorer type player in Murray but their cast is being way over rated right now. They would not be near the position they are right now without Jokic.

millsap might still be the 2nd best player on that team since murray's been streaky. Their defense would be pretty trash without him which was happened to their team last year. Kind of a draymond type(better on offense, worse on defense)

[NuggetsFan]

Please watch more basketball, jesus christ.

I love Jokic but your statement is asinine and could only be regurgitated by a toddler that has just started watching basketball in 2016.

I mean it's just a matter of time. Tons of people have said this. I think Isiah Thomas was calling him Magic Jokic :oldlol:

Jokic's playmaking ability is insane. He directs traffic and tells people where to go. Can bring the ball up the court. His outlet passes are like a pro bowl QB. He can make passes in transition, off screens, insane in dribble hand off situations. I mean I've seen Jokic as a C, be the pick and roll ball handler, and find Plumlee off it for an alley oop. Watching two C's run the pick and roll was borderline hilarious even if it's obviously not something we do much if at all.

I get it's early to say right now. He's gotta earn it. 10 years from now I'm pretty confident it's accepted that he's the GOAT playmaking C. His handle, vision, creativity, and touch are all elite for a C. Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Sabonis, are all ahead for right now.

[BigShotBob]

name your guys who are better than? Sabonis sure but his prime wasnt in the NBA.

Respected analysts have parroted this point too not just some kids

Sabonis, Bill Walton, Kareem, Wilt, and Vlade Divac are all better passers than him.


I mean it's just a matter of time. Tons of people have said this. I think Isiah Thomas was calling him Magic Jokic :oldlol:

Jokic's playmaking ability is insane. He directs traffic and tells people where to go. Can bring the ball up the court. His outlet passes are like a pro bowl QB. He can make passes in transition, off screens, insane in dribble hand off situations. I mean I've seen Jokic as a C, be the pick and roll ball handler, and find Plumlee off it for an alley oop. Watching two C's run the pick and roll was borderline hilarious even if it's obviously not something we do much if at all.

I get it's early to say right now. He's gotta earn it. 10 years from now I'm pretty confident it's accepted that he's the GOAT playmaking C. His handle, vision, creativity, and touch are all elite for a C. Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Sabonis, are all ahead for right now.

That was my point. Most of the bigs we've mentioned did so for a very long time save for Walton. Jokic could fall off a cliff tomorrow for all we know. Calling him the best passing big ever right now is like calling Harden the best offensive player ever. It's nothing more than a hot take.

But like I said above I'd add Vlade on the list over Jokic atm.

[NBAGOAT]

Sabonis, Bill Walton, Kareem, Wilt, and Vlade Divac are all better passers than him.



That was my point. Most of the bigs we've mentioned did so for a very long time save for Walton. Jokic could fall off a cliff tomorrow for all we know. Calling him the best passing big ever right now is like calling Harden the best offensive player ever. It's nothing more than a hot take.

But like I said above I'd add Vlade on the list over Jokic atm.

i'm looking at for a season however in this context as are many others. When people say harden is the best offensive player, they're more likely talking about this single season too compared to other single seasons even if I disagree. Wilt's the only one who's had assist numbers that compare but I have some doubts about his playmaking. Really I'm looking at walton and divac but for a season jokic may be more impressive already as good and flashy those 2 are

[aj1987]

irrelevant nonsensical garabge.
Again, 3ball, why did MJ go 1-9 with a no-star cast, instead of fielding a contender?

Stop bringing up LeBron, shit for brains. My post has literally nothing to do with LeBron.


Sabonis, Bill Walton, Kareem, Wilt, and Vlade Divac are all better passers than him.

Good lord! Have you ever actually watched a game of basketball in your life?

[Rico2016]

fielding a contender with no-star cast?

Uhhh like 1-9 ?:hammerhead:

[3ball]

fielding a contender with no-star cast?

Uhhh like 1-9 ?:hammerhead:


No, like 88' and 89', when pippen was a 7 ppg player

And 1-9 was MJ's first couple seasons, where both MJ and Lebron had weak records

MJ also lacked an all-star teammate in his first 5 seasons, whereas lebron had an all-star teammate his entire career, from his first season in the league

[aj1987]

No, like 88' and 89', when pippen was a 7 ppg player

And 1-9 was MJ's first couple seasons, where both MJ and Lebron had weak records

MJ also lacked an all-star teammate in his first 5 seasons, whereas lebron had an all-star teammate his entire career, from his first season in the league
Why weren't the Bulls contenders with a no-star cast under 1-9?

[3ball]

Why weren't the Bulls contenders with a no-star cast under 1-9?
1-9 was MJ's first couple seasons, where both MJ and Lebron had weak records

After that, MJ fielded high seeds and deep runs with 8 ppg Pippen (88' and 89'); so just like Jokic.. except Murray > 88-89 pip, and Jokic probably won't take the champs 6 games like 89' MJ did

[FKAri]

1-9 was MJ's first couple seasons, where both MJ and Lebron had weak records

After that, MJ fielded high seeds and deep runs with 8 ppg Pippen (88' and 89'); so just like Jokic.. except Murray > 88-89 pip, and Jokic probably won't take the champs 6 games like 89' MJ did
We saw what a team with ZERO all-stars could do to the Celtics in '87. Why'd the GOAT get swept while putting up empty stats?

[3ball]

We saw what a team with ZERO all-stars could do to the Celtics in '87. Why'd the GOAT get swept while putting up empty stats?
MJ had the goat losing stats (40 ppg combined versus 86' and 87' Celtics; or 37/7/7 in 90' playoffs) - that's equal or better than lebron's best losing stats in 18'

Of course, 18' Lebron lost by record amount with a fully-developed, 3-time defending conference champion, so a far cry from MJ's young, lottery squads that played the goat celtics much closer.. :bowdown:

MJ also had the goat WINNING stats in 91-93' PO:. 33.7 and 6.6 apg > 27.2 and 7.2 for lebron in 12/13/16 PO.. The gap in Finals stats is even more ridiculous (36 and 8 > 27 and 7 again)

[imdaman99]

Why are you writing in blue? Does it have a meaning?
Maybe he wants to stand out :confusedshrug:

ORRRRRRR maybe it's easier to scroll down and see if anyone replied to you without reading the rest of the junk. Not like we have any other way of finding out someone replied to you on this 1988 forum format. Cheapass Jeff :facepalm

[tpols]

Jokic is the MVP.

He highlights the sharp contrast between American aau freestyle and euro teamwork & high iq. No surprise its better for a team to be intelligent rather than rely on athleticism.

[tontoz]

Jokic is the MVP.

He highlights the sharp contrast between American aau freestyle and euro teamwork & high iq. No surprise its better for a team to be intelligent rather than rely on athleticism.


Fun guy to watch. Reminds me of Bird in that he looks like a lead footed goof but his size, skills and IQ make him extremely effective.

The benefit of being slow is that you are always under control, and if you are under control then all options are available to you. It is hard for the defense to anticipate what Jokic is going to do.

I wouldn't call him the MVP though.

[NuggetsFan]

Fun guy to watch. Reminds me of Bird in that he looks like a lead footed goof but his size, skills and IQ make him extremely effective.

The benefit of being slow is that you are always under control, and if you are under control then all options are available to you. It is hard for the defense to anticipate what Jokic is going to do.

I wouldn't call him the MVP though.

He's not the MVP because Giannis is having an insane season and Milwaukee is crushing it. His season is MVP caliber tho, and unless the Nuggets skid it'll be bullshit when he finishes like 4th in the voting.

What he does as a C passing the ball is truly remarkable. It's not even the APG, or triple doubles. We've seen great passing big men, we've never truly seen a point C. A C who can bring up the ball, who can push it in transition, and while it's not common be the pick and roll ball handler. He's not just sitting in the post kicking it out. He directs our offense at times as well. He's like a PG at C and this season he's finally took the step and become aggressive as a scorer.

[NuggetsFan]

Absolutely nobody saw the Nuggets as a home court team this season, yet were right there with GS still. You know what teams has lost the most games to injury? The Denver Nuggets. We were at one point for a stretch without 3 starters. 3 starters. Had you predicted these injury issues before the season? Most would have seen us finishing like 10th. Even Nugget fans. Tell us Harris will be hurt/banged up basically all season even when he's on the floor, Millsap would miss time again, Barton would be out for awhile, Murray would miss a few game .. and we would be screwed.

Jokic on a team destroyed by injuries, with no other All-Stars, is managing to have us keep pace with Golden State but doing things a C hasn't done since what, like Wilt Chamberlain? Whens' the last time a C led his team in PPG, APG, RPG, SPG and was a triple double threat every night?

I get nobody gives a shit about Denver, but if this situation was happening in like NY or L.A it'd be the storyline of the season.

[Akeem34TheDream]

I've seen enough. Jokic>Jordan

[stalkerforlife]

Bran has more help than Jokic, but Jokic plays a winning style.

Bran plays a stat padding losing style.

[NuggetsFan]

I've seen enough. Jokic>Jordan

I get it's a troll thread but Jokic isn't even the best player in the league. Giannis is no doubt the better player. Jokic might have a better case with the injuries, and his importance, but I don't even think Nugget fans think there's even an argument for him being a better overall player than Giannis.

[aj1987]

1-9 was MJ's first couple seasons, where both MJ and Lebron had weak records

After that, MJ fielded high seeds and deep runs with 8 ppg Pippen (88' and 89'); so just like Jokic.. except Murray > 88-89 pip, and Jokic probably won't take the champs 6 games like 89' MJ did
And yet, Ordan is the one who's 1-9.

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Unlike LeBron both Giannis and Jokic have a style and mindset that allows other star players to flourish seamlessly. They play basketball the way it's meant to be played with their own uniqueness added on to it - Giannis being a freak athlete and Jokic being an incredible playmaker for a C

Ideally LeBron should focus on defense since he has the frame of a 1st teamer but he wants his points and assists, he's too old to make that a priority especially next season. Needs to learn from past mistakes and accept his inner Karl Malone but we know he's not going to do that.

[Walk on Water]

It's not like the Lakers weren't 4th in the west before he got injured, huh?

bitchBall


And 2 games from the 10th spot.

[3ball]

It's not like the Lakers weren't 20-14 before he got injured, huh?


That's a 48-win pace or equal to the Clippers, except the Clippers own the tie-breaker

So no playoffs regardless of injury

Of course, the Lakers had the easiest early schedule and were only 28-27 with lebron overall (nowhere near the playoffs)





bitchBall


Lebron left Cleveland in 2010 because he couldn't lead a star-less cast to the Finals like he did in 07, or like other guys did in that decade like Dwight in 09', or AI/Kidd from 01-03'

So he only carried soup cans to the Finals 1 time when everyone else was doing it - he needed needed super-teams to make it from 11-17', and a perennial all-star 2nd option in 18'.. and a very weak conference overall of course..

[bigkingsfan]

:roll:

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lebron couldn't lead a star-less cast to the Finals like lebron in 07

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/09/fF2KUXJ.gif

[90sgoat]

:roll: :roll:

Visions of being showed into a locker eh?

[Im so nba'd out]

Lebron left Cleveland because he couldn't lead a star-less cast to the Finals like 09' Dwight, 07' lebron, or AI/Kidd from 01-03'


Bruce read what you just wrote...

[scuzzy]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/09/fF2KUXJ.gif
:roll: :roll: :roll::roll:

[bigkingsfan]

Visions of being showed into a locker eh?
:roll:

[scuzzy]

:roll:
:roll:

[tpols]

Jokic led a team ranked 2 in assists. LeBron has never done that to my knowledge.

Its amazing to me people won't acknowledge that team assists are > than an individual's.

All your favorite dynasties had the highest team assist ranks.

[3ball]

Revised post

Lebron left Cleveland in 2010 because he couldn't lead a star-less cast to the Finals again like he did previously in 07, or like other guys did in that decade (Dwight, AI, Kidd)

So he only carried soup cans to the Finals 1 time when everyone else was doing it - he otherwise needed super-teams from 11-17', and a perennial all-star 2nd option in 18'.. and a very weak conference overall of course (no playoffs in the West)
..

[Im so nba'd out]

Revised post

Lebron left Cleveland in 2010 because he couldn't lead a star-less cast to the Finals like he did previously
https://media1.tenor.com/images/4ede6e6c2a30d6280ac95615d66a8a96/tenor.gif

[scuzzy]

Revised post


https://media1.tenor.com/images/21532e9d48ccc262e7a309d7702fc0c0/tenor.gif

[3ball]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/4ede6e6c2a30d6280ac95615d66a8a96/tenor.gif


At least AlternativeAcc pointed out poor writing in my original post... :applause:

Whereas you edited and cut-off a well-written post so it appears to say something else... :facepalm

Shameful, but the kind of beta move that lets me know the point I made was POTENT (see the "revised" post above).. :pimp:
.

[TheCorporation]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/4ede6e6c2a30d6280ac95615d66a8a96/tenor.gif

:lol

Oh 3ball, there he goes again. Our crazed resident poster :lol

[TheCorporation]

At least AlternativeAcc pointed out poor writing in my original post... :applause:

Whereas you edited and cut-off a well-written post so it appears to say something else... :facepalm

Shameful, but the kind of beta move that lets me know the point I made was POTENT (see the "revised" post above).. :pimp:
.

What was the best team Michael Jordan faced in the Finals?

[3ball]

:lol

Oh 3ball, there he goes again. Our crazed resident poster :lol
And there goes our resident actors, acting like this doesn't make sense because they can't refute it:

Lebron left Cleveland in 2010 because he couldn't lead a star-less cast to the Finals again like he did previously in 07, or like other guys did in that decade (Dwight, AI, Kidd)

So he only carried soup cans to the Finals 1 time when everyone else was doing it - he otherwise needed super-teams from 11-17', and a perennial all-star 2nd option in 18'.. and a very weak conference overall of course (no playoffs in the West)

So no, lebron isn't good for anyone to coach, and unless he has Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love as well.. and even then you'll mostly lose the championship running bron-ball.

[TheCorporation]

I mean he won six times to LeBron's three, right? MJ must have faced a lot of great teams in the finals since he had six wins right? :D

[TheCorporation]

And there goes our resident actors, acting like this doesn't make sense because they can't refute it:

Lebron left Cleveland in 2010 because he couldn't lead a star-less cast to the Finals again like he did previously in 07, or like other guys did in that decade (Dwight, AI, Kidd)

So he only carried soup cans to the Finals 1 time when everyone else was doing it - he otherwise needed super-teams from 11-17', and a perennial all-star 2nd option in 18'.. and a very weak conference overall of course (no playoffs in the West)

What was the best team Michael Jordan faced in the Finals? I mean he won six times to LeBron's three, right? MJ must have beaten a lot of great teams in the finals since he had six wins right?

[3ball]

What was the best team Michael Jordan faced in the Finals? I mean he won six times to LeBron's three, right? MJ must have beaten a lot of great teams in the finals since he had six wins right?
In 1991, the Lakers had 2 sophisticated, do-it-all bigs that averaged 17/10 (Vlade/Perkins) - these were the 2 best players after the magic/mj and worthy/pippen matchups

The 90' blazers made the Finals with Clyde as 2nd option (18 ppg) and Kersey as the #1 guy - in other words, the blazers were stacked to the brim in the early 90's

This is the case for all of MJ's Finals - the bulls faced better casts in the Finals - they faced an 18' Houston or better every year

But the reality is that the b2b bad boys > 16' Warriors, so MJ beat a better team than lebron ever beat.. only the durant Warriors were a formidable Finals opponent, which he lost to worse than this year's Clippers did.. :confusedshrug: