Why do people say Kobe is more skilled than mj?

[Bronbron23]

I like both guys. I think mj is slightly better but I think Kobe deserves to be in the goat convo just as much as LeBron or any other great. I don't get the Kobe is more skilled statement though. What is more skilled at?

The only thing out of all the aspect of basketball that I can think of is handles and 3 point shooting. The handles one is actually interesting because it seems alot of people seem to think that better handles means more flashy handles where I would say better handles means being able to get to your spots and beat your defender while protecting the ball. Mj did this as good or probably a little bit better than Kobe.

Everything else mj was as skilled or more skilled than Kobe. Jordan was a better passer, rebounder and defender. There footwork was equal. Mid-range was equal. Jordan was a better finisher. Jordan moved better off the ball.

Am I missing something? What is Kobe more skilled at than mj other than 3 point shooting?

[superduper]

Ask Phil Jackson

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe pretty skilled at throwing SHAQ under the bus.. :applause:

[superduper]

Kobe pretty skilled at throwing SHAQ under the bus.. :applause:

How about throwing Shaq wide open spoonfed passes?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2482/3954617440_a3e7dc95d8.jpg

[Manny98]

Kobe will always be a poor man's version of MJ

[3ball]

Kobe isn't more skilled overall

The MJ fam simply invented the "more skilled" narrative for Kobe fam, just to throw them a bone as they get left out of the goat debate.. I mean, it's an unfortunate set of circumstances that Kobe couldn't match MJ and now gets forgotten

But ultimately, it's the media's fault though for propping up a non-goat and forgetting about Kobe

[superduper]

Kobe isn't more skilled overall

The MJ fam simply invented the "more skilled" narrative for Kobe fam, just to throw them a bone as they get left out of the goat debate.. I mean, it's an unfortunate set of circumstances that Kobe couldn't match MJ and now gets forgotten

But ultimately, it's the media's fault though for propping up a non-goat and forgetting about Kobe

Why did Phil Jackson say otherwise?

[Nowoco]

More skilled? :lol :lol

Kobe couldnt slash for shit, hence why he's a career 44% shooter.

Worse defender.
Less clutch.
Worse handles.
Slower.
Less athletic.
Worse mid-range.

I could go on.

[superduper]

More skilled? :lol :lol

Kobe couldnt slash for shit, hence why he's a career 44% shooter.

Worse defender.
Less clutch.
Worse handles.
Slower.
Less athletic.
Worse mid-range.

I could go on.

Why do Kobe and Duncan have the same career TS%?

[3ball]

Why did Phil Jackson say otherwise?
Again, the MJ fam invented the "more skilled" narrative for Kobe fam, just to throw them a bone as they get left out of the goat debate..

it's an unfortunate set of circumstances (Kobe copying the goat but coming up short) that Kobe now gets forgotten

MJ fam feels sorry for him.. it's not how we intended

And Phil is MJ fam.. he knows MJ is the one that put his shit, garbage-ass, almost entirely unsuccessful triangle on the map. Otherwise, Kobe would never have gotten to use it. MJ made Phil by accepting him and his shit offense

[Round Mound]

Outside and 3-point shooting goes to Kobe. Aesthetic ball handling goes to Kobe (Jordan had bigger hands so it looked less flashy). Then the rest defense, driving to the basket, hang time, strength, speed, quickness, agility, foot quickness, mid range shooting and inside scoring goes to MJ.

[Bronbron23]

Why did Phil Jackson say otherwise?
Could be because like many he miss uses the word. Many equate more flashy to more skilled. The better handles is a perfect example. Kobe had much more flashy handles but I would argue that mj had better handles or at least as good. This is due to Mj's hand size and more efficient dribbling technique.

Forget what Phil says. What do you say? What is Kobe more skilled at exactly

[Haymaker]

Kobe will always be a poor man's version of MJ

This. And as accomplished as Kobe was, he'll be inferior to MJ. But which NBA player isn't?

[kennethgriffen]

jordans shot beyond 15 feet was a flat push shot like a 6th grade female on her period.

[Vino24]

jordans shot beyond 15 feet was a flat push shot like a 6th grade female on her period.
This :applause:

[ClipperRevival]

As already mentioned, it has mostly to do with deeper range and live dribble. Well, Kobe HAD to be better with a live dribble because he didn't have MJ's amazing first step/quickness. So while Kobe needed to dance a little to get guys leaning one way and counter, MJ could just plant and explode by you. Still think that if MJ had Kobe's athleticism, he would've adopted a better live dribble too.

[lilteapot]

MJ is so much better it isn't even funny. Kobe had to try extremely hard to score in bunches. For MJ, it was effortless. His fundamentals were more sound and he hardly had any wasted movements.

[egokiller]

Kobe isn't more skilled overall

The MJ fam simply invented the "more skilled" narrative for Kobe fam, just to throw them a bone as they get left out of the goat debate.. I mean, it's an unfortunate set of circumstances that Kobe couldn't match MJ and now gets forgotten

But ultimately, it's the media's fault though for propping up a non-goat and forgetting about Kobe

An argument can be made that Kobe had better footwork than MJ. As for 3 point shooting, if MJ started playing when Kobe did, he would be as good or better than Kobe at 3 point shooting.

[ClipperRevival]

An argument can be made that Kobe had better footwork than MJ. As for 3 point shooting, if MJ started playing when Kobe did, he would be as good or better than Kobe at 3 point shooting.

Hell no. You can seriously make an argument that MJ was the most fundamentally sound player ever. He had all of that sh*t down. ALL OF IT. Kobe had the fortune of watching/copying MJ and adding a wrinkle here and there. But in terms of pure fundamentals, MJ was about as good as it gets.

[egokiller]

Hell no. You can seriously make an argument that MJ was the most fundamentally sound player ever. He had all of that sh*t down. ALL OF IT. Kobe had the fortune of watching/copying MJ and adding a wrinkle here and there. But in terms of pure fundamentals, MJ was about as good as it gets.

It's no diss to MJ that Kobe was able to somewhat mimic what was already done and expand upon it. The fact that MJ was so GOAT that the only thing Kobe could enhance was his footwork is proof on just how GOAT MJ really was. What's really sad is how LeBron had the blueprints of BOTH Kobe and MJ yet still somehow managed to fvck it all up and go 3/9. :roll:

[kennethgriffen]

MJ is so much better it isn't even funny. Kobe had to try extremely hard to score in bunches. For MJ, it was effortless. His fundamentals were more sound and he hardly had any wasted movements.


the funny thing is you dont even realize you just made the argument for kobe being more skilled


ofcourse it was more difficult for kobe to score. he wasnt bigger/stronger/faster than all the guys defending him. he needed more skill to dominate.

with the same advantage and hand size kobe wouldnt have settled for as many long range fading highly contested shots


kobe needed to be the best high difficulty shot maker ever to get where he was

Kobe with mjs skill wouldnt have been nearly as legendary

[Phoenix]

As already mentioned, it has mostly to do with deeper range and live dribble. Well, Kobe HAD to be better with a live dribble because he didn't have MJ's amazing first step/quickness. So while Kobe needed to dance a little to get guys leaning one way and counter, MJ could just plant and explode by you. Still think that if MJ had Kobe's athleticism, he would've adopted a better live dribble too.

Exactly. Some skills need to be adopted out of necessity. If MJ had a more 'modern' and-1 style handle it would have been more unfair than it already was. Kobe's ball-handling even within his own career changed, he had far more of a 'fancy' dribble when he came into the league but that changed over time...maybe due to finger injuries, maybe due to his game just maturing and using other methods( footwork) to get the defender off balance rather than crossing guys like he was doing as 'frobe'.

[lilteapot]

the funny thing is you dont even realize you just made the argument for kobe being more skilled


ofcourse it was more difficult for kobe to score. he wasnt bigger/stronger/faster than all the guys defending him. he needed more skill to dominate.

with the same advantage and hand size kobe wouldnt have settled for as many long range fading highly contested shots


kobe needed to be the best high difficulty shot maker ever to get where he was

Kobe with mjs skill wouldnt have been nearly as legendary

Kobe was 6'6 with a 6'11 wingspan and insane athleticism. miss me with the BS. Dude could jump out the gym with the best of them.

[ClipperRevival]

This is how MJ got by guys. And MJ could do street style crossovers too. It starts at 4:15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IErL0fs8GxU&t=103s

[kennethgriffen]

Kobe was 6'6 with a 6'11 wingspan and insane athleticism. miss me with the BS. Dude could jump out the gym with the best of them.


kobe had next to zero athleticism/verticality from 2004 to 2012 due to 3 major knee injuries

[Vragrant]

jordans shot beyond 15 feet was a flat push shot like a 6th grade female on her period.

It was flat because he got so high on his jump shot actually:oldlol: . In the 93 finals they measured MJ was in the mid thirties inches wise on his vertical on his jumpers.

[90sgoat]

I think MJ was a maestro of the game, who reached such a high level, he began deconstructing the game into a minimalism. To the pleb eye, this looks unskilled/not flashy, but to the trained eye, it shows genius. Kareem did it as well.

[kennethgriffen]

It was flat because he got so high on his jump shot actually:oldlol: . In the 93 finals they measured MJ was in the mid thirties inches wise on his vertical on his jumpers.


https://media.giphy.com/media/MwOuiiTfWfWgM/giphy.gif

[kennethgriffen]

https://media.giphy.com/media/cgkQ3zf5xbLc4/giphy.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UnpleasantLegalHydra-size_restricted.gif

:roll:

[Dray n Klay]

kobe had next to zero athleticism/verticality from 2004 to 2012 due to 3 major knee injuries

What if I told you Kobe and LeBron were within 1 inch of the same height...


One guy shot 10% better

[Bronbron23]

Based on Kobe fans arguments it seems they mistake flashy for skill. Kobe fans think that forcing tough shots and using more dribbles means more skilled where I think being more efficient in your shot selection and dribbling means more skilled. Maybe someone needs to put the definition of skilled on here to clarify things

[raprap]

Kobe would destroy MJ one on one tbh

Too many moves :pimp:

[andgar923]

I like both guys. I think mj is slightly better but I think Kobe deserves to be in the goat convo just as much as LeBron or any other great. I don't get the Kobe is more skilled statement though. What is more skilled at?

The only thing out of all the aspect of basketball that I can think of is handles and 3 point shooting. The handles one is actually interesting because it seems alot of people seem to think that better handles means more flashy handles where I would say better handles means being able to get to your spots and beat your defender while protecting the ball. Mj did this as good or probably a little bit better than Kobe.

Everything else mj was as skilled or more skilled than Kobe. Jordan was a better passer, rebounder and defender. There footwork was equal. Mid-range was equal. Jordan was a better finisher. Jordan moved better off the ball.

Am I missing something? What is Kobe more skilled at than mj other than 3 point shooting?
he's not.

People just take Mj for granted cause he made shit look easy and was more consistent.

[Bronbron23]

Kobe would destroy MJ one on one tbh

Too many moves :pimp:
I actually wouldn't argue this but how good someone is one on one dosnt mean shit in a 5 on 5 game. Especially at the NBA level

[Young X]

Kobe has better handles and more range on his jumper. They're close in terms of skill.

[kennethgriffen]

I actually wouldn't argue this but how good someone is one on one dosnt mean shit in a 5 on 5 game. Especially at the NBA level


but thats how both guys scored... 1 on 1's, 1 on 2's, 1 on 3's.. and sometimes 1 on 4's and 5's


kobe and jordan weren't really running around screens. being the recipient of a pick and pop or driving their teams with assists


but if you were to break it down to other aspects kobe was the assist leader for 5 world championship teams

jordan was never the bulls assist leader during their title winning seasons

[Bronbron23]

but thats how both guys scored... 1 on 1's, 1 on 2's, 1 on 3's.. and sometimes 1 on 4's and 5's


kobe and jordan weren't really running around screens. being the recipient of a pick and pop or driving their teams with assists


but if you were to break it down to other aspects kobe was the assist leader for 5 world championship teams

jordan was never the bulls assist leader during their title winning seasons
No man u don't understand NBA basketball if you really think that. Mj was much better off the ball than Kobe. He was also much more patient in the the triangle than Kobe was. Mj was a much better fit in the triangle system than Kobe was.

[andgar923]

Kobe vs Mj is an old and tired argument that has been utterly debunked time and time again. Kobetards have a history of being the biggest idiots in sports in general... YES I said "SPORTS" not just basketball.

Here are some of the arguments that have been debunked throughout the years and how the bar and criteria kept evolving as these arguments kept being debunked.

Kobe is a better athlete than MJ
Kobe can jump higher
Kobe has better dunks
Kobe is quicker
Kobe played in a harder era due to zone
Kobe was doubled more
Kobe was a better player
Kobe was a better defender
Kobe was a better passer
Kobe was a better scorer
Kobe was more fundamental and more skilled
Kobe was a harder worker
Kobe had better footwork
Kobe had a better post game

Time and time again they kept moving the goal post as their arguments got debunked. He went to being a better athlete to a better dunker to being more skilled since MJ was a better athlete.

It's pitiful and sad to see people this wrong so many times, yet they keep coming back every so often. They're like cockroaches that simply won't go away, like a fly that keeps buzzing in your ear annoying everyone around.

There is absolutely nothing outside of perhaps 3pt shooting that Kobe is better at... that's about it. Some aspects he's close, one can argue that he might be a tiny bit better as a ball handler, yet that's it. Mj is better at every other aspect of the game no matter how much they try to dissect and microscope shit to fit their narrative.

[kennethgriffen]

Kobe vs Mj is an old and tired argument that has been utterly debunked time and time again. Kobetards have a history of being the biggest idiots in sports in general... YES I said "SPORTS" not just basketball.

Here are some of the arguments that have been debunked throughout the years and how the bar and criteria kept evolving as these arguments kept being debunked.

Kobe is a better athlete than MJ ( nobody said this )
Kobe can jump higher ( nobody said this )
Kobe has better in game dunks due to difficulty
Kobe is quicker ( nobody said this )
Kobe played in a harder era due to better competition on the wing
Kobe was doubled more on the perimeter
Kobe was a better player in his prime
Kobe was nearly as good a defender
Kobe won 5 titles as his teams top playmaker. jordan won zero
Kobe was a more lethal scorer and had the same point per shot
Kobe was more fundamental and more skilled
Kobe was a harder worker
Kobe had better footwork
Kobe had a better post game




all of these ARE true though

[BigShotBob]

In terms of skill, Kobe was better. He's top three most skilled players ever (Bird, Hakeem, Kobe).

MJ had a lot of skill and was fundamentally sound, especially defensively (always had the correct hand in the passing lane, stayed down below the ball, lateral quickness, high IQ and anticipation, etc) but Kobe's footwork was present even when he was as young as 19 years old.

He perfected so many moves and counters especially in the post that getting into the nuance of it is simply unfair. He could mimic Kareem's sky hook, Olajuwon's dream shake, Magic's baby hook, MJ's fade-away, and off the dribble he was trained by Shamgod and perfected Tim Hardaway's crossover.

MJ "wasted" less movement because he had the highest vertical ever recorded and got so high off of his jumpshots (30+ inch vert on his jumpshots on average) that even bigs had a hard time contesting him. And he was so quick and explosive that video tapes at the time couldn't even keep up with him.

Then when he got older, he had developed so much strength in the post that there wasn't a guard or forward alive that could push him out of position (Reggie Miller said that MJ was the 'Shaq' of shooting guards in the post). All of these things scream physical gifts to me, but he maximized what he had which isn't a knock on him.

But when it comes to having a more deadly arsenal then it's Kobe. He took MJ's moves, Hakeem's moves, Kareem's moves, Magic's moves, Bird's moves, Iverson's moves...I could go on. He was a chameleon that understood the game of basketball at a micro level.

[Uncle Drew]

If Kobe was so skilled, how come he never really re-found his footing after his achilles injury?

[kennethgriffen]

If Kobe was so skilled, how come he never really re-found his footing after his achilles injury?

because hes a jump shooter and not a set shooter


his outside shots routinely had about 25-30 inches of verticality on them

he could only get about 10-15 inches after the achilles rupture

[Manny98]

Kobe was so skilled he never had not one elite efficiency scoring season in his 20 year career

[kennethgriffen]

Kobe was so skilled he never had not one elite efficiency scoring season in his 20 year career


up till his achilles injury he had the exact same point per shot as MJ

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/02/incredulous.gif


and even after its only separated by 0.03 points

[Manny98]

up till his achilles injury he had the exact same point per shot as MJ

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/02/incredulous.gif


and even after its only separated by 0.03 points
60% True shooting = elite efficiency something BrickBe doesn't know about

Kobe never even got over a 28 PER how pathetic :roll:

Why do people even mention that wannabe ripoff in the same breath as the original

MJ is better than Kobe at absolutely everything just accept it

[Manny98]

Kobe has better handles and more range on his jumper. They're close in terms of skill.
No MJ has much better handles he could play point guard if he wanted to

Both are shit 3 point shooters

But MJ is vastly superior from mid range

[Manny98]

the funny thing is you dont even realize you just made the argument for kobe being more skilled


ofcourse it was more difficult for kobe to score. he wasnt bigger/stronger/faster than all the guys defending him. he needed more skill to dominate.

with the same advantage and hand size kobe wouldnt have settled for as many long range fading highly contested shots


kobe needed to be the best high difficulty shot maker ever to get where he was

Kobe with mjs skill wouldnt have been nearly as legendary
If Kobe was so skilled he would of found ways to get himself open

Curry is smaller than Kobe yet he scores with ease what's Kobes excuse?

[kennethgriffen]

No MJ has much better handles he could play point guard if he wanted to

Both are shit 3 point shooters

But MJ is vastly superior from mid range


this is actually comical



kobe was the primary ball handler for 20 years... he was basically a point guard that scored more than he passed .. he was the assist leader for 5 world championship teams. only guys with more are cousy and pippen


he brought the ball up the floor. ran the offense. he had to play the role of pippen and jordan


he would dance on guys. do ultimate cross overs, spin moves, behind the backs, handled and shot with his left as though it was his dominant hand.



jordan just caught it on the high block and turned around for a jumper


he was really good too but not on kobes level. nobody from jordans era had handles like guys from the 2000's

FOH lol

[kennethgriffen]

If Kobe was so skilled he would of found ways to get himself open

Curry is smaller than Kobe yet he scores with ease what's Kobes excuse?


so you're saying it takes more skill to run around screens and play off the passing of others so you can get an open shot than it does to freelance and rise up over multiple guys and knock down enough insanely difficult long jumpers to have the same PPS as MJ

:lol

[Manny98]

Taking insanely difficult jumpers is not a skill. The goal of basketball is to score so taking the most efficienct shot possible.

Kobe can't shoot like Curry or move without the ball as well as a Curry or a MJ hence he had to settle for forced contested jumpers a lot of the time

[kennethgriffen]

Taking insanely difficult jumpers is not a skill. The goal of basketball is to score so taking the most efficienct shot possible.

Kobe can't shoot like Curry or move without the ball as well as a Curry or a MJ hence he had to settle for forced contested jumpers a lot of the time


i think you might be retarded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQd2h4X0O2E



being so good to the point where you can have a playstation mentality and still be a top 5-7 player of all time?


it takes THE MOST SKILL to do that... you absolute buffoon lmao

[kennethgriffen]

i think this idiot forgot about 2000-2002 kobe who won all this titles playing under control/smart/getting good looks


kobe wasn't always that 81 point crazy shot taker/maker


he was the best 22 year old we've ever seen by playing under control and getting mostly MJ style mid range/slashing buckets


:lol



he CHOSE to be the playstation mamba because he got TOO GOOD and wanted to demoralize opponents

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7QZaZJu2yM

[Manny98]

32% career 3 point shooter yikes :roll:

2000-2002 getting outscored by Austin Croshere in the finals and getting carried by Shaq yh that Kobe :roll:

[kennethgriffen]

32% career 3 point shooter yikes :roll:

it was 34% prior to the achilles rupture.. which is equal to higher than 50% fg's on 2 point shots


he has the same PPS as mj


you can't win this argument.


jordan or lebron taking kobes 3 point attempts would shoot 25%

[andgar923]

all of these ARE true though
Delusional

[kennethgriffen]

Delusional


but a ton of people say it.. rose/billups/pierce most recently



its not some wild message board opinion by some troll


prominent people have been saying it as far back as phil jackson during the 00's

[Bronbron23]

so you're saying it takes more skill to run around screens and play off the passing of others so you can get an open shot than it does to freelance and rise up over multiple guys and knock down enough insanely difficult long jumpers to have the same PPS as MJ

:lol
No I don't think anyone is saying that. Jordan was just as good at freelancing and shooting over multiple defenders though. Unlike Kobe mj was smart enough to know it wasn't always the easiest or most efficient way to score. He knew that learning how to move off the ball was just as important as knowing how to move on the ball. Kobe never really picked this up.

And if you think mastering off ball movement just means running around screens then you don't bball that well. It's much more than that. It's cutting. It's fake cuts, back cuts, back peddling on screens in stead of running around. It's give and goes and just always moving off passes. Never being stagnant. Steph curry is one of the best at this. He does run around alot screens but if you really watch him it's not that simple. Hes one of the best off ball movers ever.

Here a video to help u understand https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eM2X5QlJCHk

[kennethgriffen]

No I don't think anyone is saying that. Jordan was just as good at freelancing and shooting over multiple defenders though.


no he wasn't

:lol


maybe inside of 12 feet?


seriously?... how f*cking stupid has this forum gotten

[Dray n Klay]

no he wasn't

:lol


maybe inside of 12 feet?


seriously?... how f*cking stupid has this forum gotten

Compare Kobe

[kennethgriffen]

Compare Kobe’s pps to LeBron


lebron rarely shot long 2's... impossible to compare


plus hes 6-8/6-9 260/270 pounds and is basically a power forward

[Bronbron23]

no he wasn't

:lol


maybe inside of 12 feet?


seriously?... how f*cking stupid has this forum gotten
He definitely was. Just because mj was smart enough not to do it all the time didn't mean Kobe was better at it.

If you wanna narrow it down to shooting over multiple defenders from 3 than yeah Kobebis better but inside the 3 point line mj was just as good and the closer you get to the rim the more advantage mj had because mj was faster and could jump higher.

That's another reason why mj didn't have to take as many bad shots because he had a quicker first step and could blow by the defender more easily. Because he could jump higher he was better able to finish over the defensive help.

One of the reasons why mj has way more dunks and way more facials on defenders

[kennethgriffen]

He definitely was. Just because mj was smart enough not to do it all the time didn't mean Kobe was better at it.

If you wanna narrow it down to shooting over multiple defenders from 3 than yeah Kobebis better but inside the 3 point line mj was just as good and the closer you get to the rim the more advantage mj had because mj was faster and could jump higher.

That's another reason why mj didn't have to take as many bad shots because he had a quicker first step and could blow by the defender more easily. Because he could jump higher he was better able to finish over the defensive help.

One of the reasons why mj has way more dunks and way more facials on defenders


no.. jordan ran down the floor. set up in the triangle on the high block and players rotated around him ( like shaq did in the triangle ) while he faced up or backed down guys for the turn around


he wasn't like kobe where he'd take the ball up the court. freelance into a spinning fall away three pointer in the corner or reverse pivot move


kobe was far more creative and utilized the entire court way more than MJ


you're obviously either too old and forgetful or too young and ignorant

[Dray n Klay]

no.. jordan ran down the floor. set up in the triangle on the high block and players rotated around him ( like shaq did in the triangle ) while he faced up or backed down guys for the turn around


he wasn't like kobe where he'd take the ball up the court. freelance into a spinning fall away three pointer in the corner or reverse pivot move


kobe was far more creative and utilized the entire court way more than MJ


you're obviously either too old and forgetful or too young and ignorant


40 point Finals?

[kennethgriffen]

40 point Finals?


you're so mad that lebrons ruined his legacy this year to the point where jordan and kobe fans are at war again

:lol

[Bronbron23]

no.. jordan ran down the floor. set up in the triangle on the high block and players rotated around him ( like shaq did in the triangle ) while he faced up or backed down guys for the turn around


he wasn't like kobe where he'd take the ball up the court. freelance into a spinning fall away three pointer in the corner or reverse pivot move


kobe was far more creative and utilized the entire court way more than MJ


you're obviously either too old and forgetful or too young and ignorant
You do know that through the 80's mj played without the triangle? If you take out the second year where he was hurt and on minutes restrictions he scored more out of triangle playing the way you describe Kobe as playing. He had his 2 best scoring seasons out of triangle. 37ppg and 35ppg. You have absolutely no idea what your talking about

[kennethgriffen]

You do know that through the 80's mj played without the triangle? If you take out the second year where he was hurt and on minutes restrictions he scored more out of triangle playing the way you describe Kobe as playing. He had his 2 best scoring seasons out of triangle. 37ppg and 35ppg. You have absolutely no idea what your talking about



80s mj didn't win.. he tried that free lancing style and it didn't work


he could do it from inside the arc and shoot around the foul line and in ... it didn't work when he faced teams that put him on his a** though


kobe won with that style in 2009 and 2010

[Bronbron23]

80s mj didn't win.. he tried that free lancing style and it didn't work


he could do it from inside the arc and shoot around the foul line and in ... it didn't work when he faced teams that put him on his a** though


kobe won with that style in 2009 and 2010
Neither won with that style. In 2009 and 2010 Kobe was actually free lancing alot less. He was more mature and trusted he teamates more. He himself talks about this

[kennethgriffen]

Neither won with that style. In 2009 and 2010 Kobe was actually free lancing alot less. He was more mature and trusted he teamates more. He himself talks about this


as far as playmaking... yes kobe went with the system


as far as scoring... na he was still taking insanely difficult shots from all angles ...

kobe played that way from 2003 till 2016


how do you think he got in trouble in the first half of game 7 2010

[kennethgriffen]

https://youtu.be/pMaXCsDhCS4?t=36



this is called playstation mentality... kobe won titles with it


jordan never did

[Bronbron23]

https://youtu.be/pMaXCsDhCS4?t=36



this is called playstation mentality... kobe won titles with it


jordan never did
The problem is for every game like this where Kobe was hot there was more games where Kobe was cold but would still take these types of shots and shoot his team out of the game. You can't be consistently efficient with this style. Especially against good defences.

Jordan would als use off ball movement and his better athleticism to put himself in positions where he wouldn't have to take as many of these bad shots like Kobe.

We just different on what way is more skilled than the other is all

[kennethgriffen]

The problem is for every game like this where Kobe was hot there was more games where Kobe was cold but would still take these types of shots and shoot his team out of the game. You can't be consistently efficient with this style. Especially against good defences.

Jordan would als use off ball movement and his better athleticism to put himself in positions where he wouldn't have to take as many of these bad shots like Kobe.

We just different on what way is more skilled than the other is all



i don't think you're very accurate in this assessment


from 2003 up until his achilles injury ( the end of 2013 ) kobe averaged 28/6/7 combined.. with 45% fg's, 34% threes and a point per shot of 1.31



while freelancing/taking impossible shots he had by far his best statistics

[Bronbron23]

i don't think you're very accurate in this assessment


from 2003 up until his achilles injury ( the end of 2013 ) kobe averaged 28/6/7 combined.. with 45% fg's, 34% threes and a point per shot of 1.31



while freelancing/taking impossible shots he had by far his best statistics
What about playoffs and finals where defences are tougher and the games mean more?

[kennethgriffen]

What about playoffs and finals where defences are tougher and the games mean more?


2003-2012 playoffs = 29ppg, 5rpg, 5apg, 45% fg's, 33% threes, 1.27pps


still amazing


yes his fg% dipped in the finals but he got to the line a bunch and made up for it

he faced 3 insanely difficult defensive teams during that stretch

but the proof is in the pudding... he won multiple titles playing a style that jordan was obliterated with

[Bronbron23]

2003-2012 playoffs = 29ppg, 5rpg, 5apg, 45% fg's, 33% threes, 1.27pps


still amazing


yes his fg% dipped in the finals but he got to the line a bunch and made up for it

he faced 3 insanely difficult defensive teams during that stretch

but the proof is in the pudding... he won multiple titles playing a style that jordan was obliterated with
I disagree. He was still in the triangle and played much more like mj did in those 2 title wins. Go back and watch those finals. He was way more controlled than his younger days when he was pissing off Phil and Shaq with his at times terrible shot selection

[kennethgriffen]

I disagree. He was still in the triangle and played much more like mj did in those 2 title wins. Go back and watch those finals. He was way more controlled than his younger days when he was pissing off Phil and Shaq with his at times terrible shot selection


the triangle was made for his teammates. not for kobe


kobe broke the triangle to score all the time. he only utilized it for the other guys because an iso playmaking system doesn't win


jordan however nearly always scored within the triangle because he played the shaq role on the block. collapsing the defense with the rotating pieces was how he got his assists and mid range shots


theres no triangle system that starts a guy behind the 3 point arc with the ball breaking down the defense

sorry


you lose

[3ball]

Seasons with 1st team All-NBA and 1st team defense:

Jordan: 9
Kobe: 8
Duncan: 7
Lebron: 5
Hakeem: 4
Robinson: 4
Kareem: 3

[kennethgriffen]

Seasons with 1st team All-NBA and 1st team defense:

Jordan: 9
Duncan: 7
Kobe: 6
Lebron: 5
Hakeem: 4
Robinson: 4
Kareem: 3


2003
2004
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011

= 6?

:biggums:


and kobe has the most total all 1st teams in history



but thats not really the argument here. nobodies saying jordan didnt accomplish more

[Uncle Drew]

How come Kobe was never able to overcome his achilles rupture while Rudy Gay was?

[kennethgriffen]

How come Kobe was never able to overcome his achilles rupture while Rudy Gay was?


well it probably had something to do with playing 3 times as many career minutes and constantly getting injured again soon after returning which made him shy away from attacking the rim

[Manny98]

Why did a player more skilled than MJ only win 1 MVP it doesn't add up surely he should have won a couple more?

[Uncle Drew]

well it probably had something to do with playing 3 times as many career minutes and constantly getting injured again soon after returning which made him shy away from attacking the rim
How come Kobe was never able to overcome his achilles rupture while Dominique Wilkins was?

[Vino24]

Kobe was able to get his shot off anywhere on the court against anyone. Jordan struggled against players with similar athleticism (Gary Payton)

[kennethgriffen]

Why did a player more skilled than MJ only win 1 MVP it doesn't add up


for the 1 billionth time. they hated him because of the rape trial/shaq feud/mj comparisons/lebron agenda


even the league was against him (basketball reasons)


the fact that he had the career he did is a testament to how great he truly was since he had to overcome the world wishing him to fail

[kennethgriffen]

How come Kobe was never able to overcome his achilles rupture while Dominique Wilkins was?




well it probably had something to do with playing 3 times as many career minutes and constantly getting injured again soon after returning which made him shy away from attacking the rim

[Uncle Drew]

well it probably had something to do with playing 3 times as many career minutes and constantly getting injured again soon after returning which made him shy away from attacking the rim
Do you know who Dominique Wilkins is? :lol

[Bronbron23]

the triangle was made for his teammates. not for kobe


kobe broke the triangle to score all the time. he only utilized it for the other guys because an iso playmaking system doesn't win


jordan however nearly always scored within the triangle because he played the shaq role on the block. collapsing the defense with the rotating pieces was how he got his assists and mid range shots


theres no triangle system that starts a guy behind the 3 point arc with the ball breaking down the defense

sorry


you lose again go back and watch those finals and I really can't lose. I'm a fan of both. It's a win win for me either way

[bizil]

In terms of skill, Kobe was better. He's top three most skilled players ever (Bird, Hakeem, Kobe).

MJ had a lot of skill and was fundamentally sound, especially defensively (always had the correct hand in the passing lane, stayed down below the ball, lateral quickness, high IQ and anticipation, etc) but Kobe's footwork was present even when he was as young as 19 years old.

He perfected so many moves and counters especially in the post that getting into the nuance of it is simply unfair. He could mimic Kareem's sky hook, Olajuwon's dream shake, Magic's baby hook, MJ's fade-away, and off the dribble he was trained by Shamgod and perfected Tim Hardaway's crossover.

MJ "wasted" less movement because he had the highest vertical ever recorded and got so high off of his jumpshots (30+ inch vert on his jumpshots on average) that even bigs had a hard time contesting him. And he was so quick and explosive that video tapes at the time couldn't even keep up with him.

Then when he got older, he had developed so much strength in the post that there wasn't a guard or forward alive that could push him out of position (Reggie Miller said that MJ was the 'Shaq' of shooting guards in the post). All of these things scream physical gifts to me, but he maximized what he had which isn't a knock on him.

But when it comes to having a more deadly arsenal then it's Kobe. He took MJ's moves, Hakeem's moves, Kareem's moves, Magic's moves, Bird's moves, Iverson's moves...I could go on. He was a chameleon that understood the game of basketball at a micro level.

Great post!! Some posters DON'T understand the difference between the better player AND more skilled player. MJ was the better player. But Kobe had more weapons in his arsenal. OF COURSE MJ was very skilled himself. But Kobe was from a new generation. And as u stated took moves from the legends AND his peers to add to his arsenal.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Because they don’t know what they’re talking about.

[sportjames23]

Kobe was able to get his shot off anywhere on the court against anyone. Jordan struggled against players with similar athleticism (Gary Payton)

Manu Ginobili says what? Bruce Bowen, too.

[andgar923]

So Kobe is better cause he takes/makes tougher shots. This is the gist that I'm getting from Kobe Stans.

He's more skilled because he has more moves is something they keep repeating.

Well if he's taking tougher shots, and is having to use more moves doesn't that mean that he's not that good to begin with?

Having to take tough shots is a result of an offensive player not having the ability to get their shot off, which is usually an indicator that they don't have to tools to get a good look... aka they're forcing shots.

If they have to make multiple moves to get a shot off it means the other moves aren't good enough to begin with.

MJ made the game look easy and his highlights boring because he was THAT GOOD. His skill level was beyond Kobe's because he had an easier time creating easy shots for himself. He didn't shoot as many 3pt shots not because he simply wanted to, but because he could. MJ was able to be good enough that he wasn't forced to shoot long 3pt shots. He was so good that he could break down the defense and get easier opportunities. He was so good that he could make shots at a high efficiency rate. He was so good that even if he got doubled he still managed to get a good look. He was so good that even when teams attempted to trap and double he could still get an easier shot.

That's the main thing these Kobetards keep ignoring.

MJ could do everything Kobe could. He just didn't have to, cause he was that good.

Once you understand that shit, you'll grasp what basketball is all about.

Basketball isn't about making the game harder for yourself, it's about making it easier and in order to do that, you need to have the skills and knowledge to do so.

[kennethgriffen]

So Kobe is better cause he takes/makes tougher shots. This is the gist that I'm getting from Kobe Stans.

He's more skilled because he has more moves is something they keep repeating.

Well if he's taking tougher shots, and is having to use more moves doesn't that mean that he's not that good to begin with?

Having to take tough shots is a result of an offensive player not having the ability to get their shot off, which is usually an indicator that they don't have to tools to get a good look... aka they're forcing shots.

If they have to make multiple moves to get a shot off it means the other moves aren't good enough to begin with.

MJ made the game look easy and his highlights boring because he was THAT GOOD. His skill level was beyond Kobe's because he had an easier time creating easy shots for himself. He didn't shoot as many 3pt shots not because he simply wanted to, but because he could. MJ was able to be good enough that he wasn't forced to shoot long 3pt shots. He was so good that he could break down the defense and get easier opportunities. He was so good that he could make shots at a high efficiency rate. He was so good that even if he got doubled he still managed to get a good look. He was so good that even when teams attempted to trap and double he could still get an easier shot.

That's the main thing these Kobetards keep ignoring.

MJ could do everything Kobe could. He just didn't have to, cause he was that good.

Once you understand that shit, you'll grasp what basketball is all about.

Basketball isn't about making the game harder for yourself, it's about making it easier and in order to do that, you need to have the skills and knowledge to do so.




kobe isn't necessarily better. someone can be so great at one or two things and be in an era/vs players that can't stop it to the point where they're nearly unstoppable

its a form of dominance. which jordan had and was able to utilize to put up godly numbers. his usage was pretty high. the guys defending him had half the strength/speed/verticality/hand size etc..



kobe from 2003 onward suffered from diminished athleticism due to significant injuries to his knees that were reoccurring and at one point he was barely able to do a basic one handed dunk at times. he had one year where he regained some lift in 2013 after the germany knee procedure/rejuvenation via healing blood cells being injected into the cartilage. but other than that he was getting by strictly on skill/footwork


kobe also had much smaller hands... they both had around the same point per shot. around the same rebounding/assist numbers and both had around the same 50/60 point outbursts.


to say jordan was MORE skilled than kobe was while having all the added physical advantages is utterly insane.


kobe with MJ's athleticism/hands/strength/speed would have done WAAAAY more


kobe was a better shooter/had more range/better footwork/better off hand/more moves/more counters/better post moves and just had more impressive jaw dropping highlights ( aside from dunks )



its actually kind of retarded for anyone to say jordan had more skills.



jordan was more dominant, was more consistent, efficient, took smarter shots


but you could say those same things about lebron. and we all know that doesn't equal skill


like i said. jordans ouside shot looked like a 12 year old school girl on her period

[ImKobe]

How come Kobe was never able to overcome his achilles rupture while Rudy Gay was?

PER 36

Kobe post-achilles: 23/5/5 47.4%TS
Jordan on the Wizards: 21/6/4 48.0%TS
Wade this year: 20/5/6 51.3%TS

MJ had 3 seasons off to recover from his last NBA stint, Wade's been playing on limited minutes since 2013.. it's amazing that Kobe's still on par with more mileage and 3 season-ending injuries, 2 of which are career-enders for most athletes at Kobe's age & mileage.

Gay played one whole Playoff series before SA and was much younger, no point even comparing the two.

[andgar923]

kobe isn't necessarily better. someone can be so great at one or two things and be in an era/vs players that can't stop it to the point where they're nearly unstoppable

its a form of dominance. which jordan had and was able to utilize to put up godly numbers. his usage was pretty high. the guys defending him had half the strength/speed/verticality/hand size etc..



kobe from 2003 onward suffered from diminished athleticism due to significant injuries to his knees that were reoccurring and at one point he was barely able to do a basic one handed dunk at times. he had one year where he regained some lift in 2013 after the germany knee procedure/rejuvenation via healing blood cells being injected into the cartilage. but other than that he was getting by strictly on skill/footwork


kobe also had much smaller hands... they both had around the same point per shot. around the same rebounding/assist numbers and both had around the same 50/60 point outbursts.


to say jordan was MORE skilled than kobe was while having all the added physical advantages is utterly insane.


kobe with MJ's athleticism/hands/strength/speed would have done WAAAAY more


kobe was a better shooter/had more range/better footwork/better off hand/more moves/more counters/better post moves and just had more impressive jaw dropping highlights ( aside from dunks )



its actually kind of retarded for anyone to say jordan had more skills.



jordan was more dominant, was more consistent, efficient, took smarter shots


but you could say those same things about lebron. and we all know that doesn't equal skill


like i said. jordans ouside shot looked like a 12 year old school girl on her period

:roll:

As usual you made no sense.

Wizards MJ is an example of how your excuses are just that.

Even late 90s MJ going up against younger players with diminished athleticism destroys your argument.

MJ was simply more skilled and better, period.

The only facet Kobe has is 3pt shooting and that

[andgar923]

PER 36

Kobe post-achilles: 23/5/5 47.4%TS
Jordan on the Wizards: 21/6/4 48.0%TS
Wade this year: 20/5/6 51.3%TS

MJ had 3 seasons off to recover from his last NBA stint, Wade's been playing on limited minutes since 2013.. it's amazing that Kobe's still on par with more mileage and 3 season-ending injuries, 2 of which are career-enders for most athletes at Kobe's age & mileage.

Gay played one whole Playoff series before SA and was much younger, no point even comparing the two.
MJ was older and was playing with multiple injuries some serious ones he hadn

[eliteballer]

They both have certain skill advantages over each other(ie. Kobe is better at shooting off the dribble but Jordan is better at using his body in the post) but they are on the same general level.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

B/c MJ was a much better athlete and had a much greater motor where he can play on both ends at a higher level at the same time

in reality their skill level and fundamental mastery of the game is equal and GOAT level. But MJ was a better athlete with a far higher motor

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan is the most skilled player of all time. A couple of very rare guys like Bird are in that conversation, but I always laugh when I hear Kobe mentioned. Kobe in terms of individual isolation offense is one of the most skilled ever, yes. But Jordan's post game and off-ball game DESTROY Kobe's, and then Jordan also had skill edges in passing, rebounding, and shooting inside 22 feet. Jordan's footwork was also at least Kobe's equal, if not superior - especially considering he not only came first and created/improved most of the wing footwork we see today, but Jordan's footwork just came out of him naturally, in a creative way on the fly. Kobe's was much more of a practiced art.

The very, very few guys who ACTUALLY compare to MJ skill-wise offensively (really, I think only Bird does because like Jordan he did it on and off the ball, and in the post; Jordan's isolation game was stronger than Bird's, though) aren't there defensively.

People who suggest that a guy like Kobe was more skilled than Jordan are simply not looking at total skill-set in all facets of the game, but only a narrow portion - namely, 1-on-1 offensive skill.

[OldSchoolBBall]

A post of mine from another thread on this same topic:

Jordan's off-ball game takes a dump on Kobe's. I honestly don't think it's a stretch to say that Jordan is one of the best ever at moving without the ball. That alone sets him apart from and above Kobe.

When people start talking about skill as in "can player X excel at some drill in isolation" it shows me that they don't really understand basketball skill. YES, you need to have the requisite technical skills, but they also have to be second-nature enough to be called upon at game speed and in various situations. Kobe has never in a million years demonstrated as much brilliance on a single play as this one from ancient Wizards Jordan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01jztnl7vvc#t=1m11s

Ridiculous off-ball work, using the defenders' momentum and lines of vision against them; then he ensures he comes tight off the curl so the defender can't squeeze through, gives a quick up-fake to get the big on his heels and goes right into a lead-foot retraction drive, takes one dribble and passes through 3 defenders off the dribble for the score. Just amazing. Beautiful.

I could post literally dozens of plays like this from Jordan. From Bird as well. Plays where they used multiple on- and off-ball skills as well as perfect reading and setting up of the defense to make plays. You don't really see too much of that from a guy like Kobe or TMac.

[kennethgriffen]

[QUOTE=andgar923]:roll:

As usual you made no sense.

Wizards MJ is an example of how your excuses are just that.

Even late 90s MJ going up against younger players with diminished athleticism destroys your argument.

MJ was simply more skilled and better, period.

The only facet Kobe has is 3pt shooting and that

[kennethgriffen]

Jordan is the most skilled player of all time.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


kobe was more skilled

hakeem was more skilled

bird was more skilled

durant is more skilled


wtf is wrong with you people lmao

[Andrei89]

Kobe was more skilled than MJ.

But MJ was the better player.

/end thread

[kennethgriffen]

Kobe was more skilled than MJ.

But MJ was the better player.

/end thread


i dunno why this is so hard for them to understand


shaq was better than hakeem. but who was more skilled


duh.. hakeem


but shaq had physical advantages and go to moves that made him better.


its the same for MJ. he was just more unstoppable due to his hand size/athletic advantages over his competition

there just wasn't as many guys that could match MJ's strength/speed/verticality/first step/change of direction/stopping on a dime/raising up etc


plus even if there was guys like that around jordan would still likely have gotten the better of them cause great offense beats great defense


jordan had the best career

kobe was the most skilled



if kobe had MJ's body/competition on the wing he would have averaged 40ppg easly for a few seasons

[Phoenix]

B/c MJ was a much better athlete and had a much greater motor where he can play on both ends at a higher level at the same time

in reality their skill level and fundamental mastery of the game is equal and GOAT level. But MJ was a better athlete with a far higher motor

That's a takeaway I don't see that often. MJ could give you 35 but still play DPOY level defense( as we saw in 1988) over a season. Kobe's 35ppg season had some very spotty and inconsistent defense efforts on a nightly basis ( usually marquee matchups against guys like Iverson, Tmac, Vince, etc etc). He recommitted to that side of the ball in 08 and probably played the best 'balance' on both ends that year hence the MVP selection, but he also didn't have the same offensive burden as 06 with Pau as a second option and an emerging Bynum( when healthy). In other words, I don't think 2006 Kobe is capable of 2008 defense, or especially 2000 defense which is when he actually peaked as a defender( with Shaq behind the defense as a bail-out).

Frankly this conversation has been done 1000 times and neither side is convincing the other. Both did things better than the other with MJ's overall superiority coming from better athleticism, and nuanced things like off the ball and catch and shoots, positioning, using body fakes to get the defender off-balance, things that don't show up in the highlights or weighed much by casual viewers, is a reasoned take. MJ did things that made scoring a little easier for himself, as opposed to Kobe who needed the best isolation skills expressly because he didn't do the 'little things' as well or as often. You can 'feel' Kobe putting in huge effort on offense many nights for that reason. MJ had a lot of nights at his peak where you didn't even realize he had 30 points because it was so in the flow of the game, and he varied it up enough without relying extensively on isolation.

[FKAri]

Jordan is the most skilled player of all time.
A bold claim. Just very hard to accept for a man that had every physical advantage known to basketball for a perimeter player. Skill requirements increase exponentially as athleticism drops in basketball.

He was fundamentally sound and extremely effective, yes but his moves were quite basic: Get to a spot and elevate. Excellent fakes, hesitations, and ability to pivot. But not a lot of bodily contortion or out of the box solutions needed. The majority of guys can't get away with such a straightforward skill set. All-time great skill level but THE best? Tough.

[paksat]

kobe had next to zero athleticism/verticality from 2004 to 2012 due to 3 major knee injuries

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[Phoenix]

A bold claim. Just very hard to accept for a man that had every physical advantage known to basketball for a perimeter player. Skill requirements increase exponentially as athleticism drops in basketball.

He was fundamentally sound and extremely effective, yes but his moves were quite basic: Get to a spot and elevate. Excellent fakes, hesitations, and ability to pivot. But not a lot of bodily contortion or out of the box solutions needed. The majority of guys can't get away with such a straightforward skill set. All-time great skill level but THE best? Tough.

MJ read the defense like few before or since. That unto itself was a skill, and once you are breaking down the game to its molecules at that level, the rest is relative 'cake' as far as MJ goes. So you're not wrong in a sense, but I feel like there's an oversimplification here. Most of the great offensive players have their spots and their objective is to get to them and put the defense in the most compromised position. Bird similarly thought several steps ahead; he knew what he was gonna do....and he knew what you were gonna do to contest it....and he had already figured out his counter to what you were gonna do....but the defender weren't thinking past his first counter. Hakeem was like that in the post, that's why he had all his defenders twisted in a pretzel by the end.

[kennethgriffen]

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL


find me a kibe windmill dunk after the 2003 season

he did like 6 or 7 full extension windmills prior to that major knee injury in the 2003 playoffs


and im not talking a baseline reverse.. im talking about a real one


kobe didnt have the verticality anymore

[Manny98]

Kyrie is more skilled than both combined

[And1AllDay]

Becos he is. MJ is a dunker, Kobe is a scorer. Big difference. Who has most All star game MVPs ?

[kennethgriffen]

Kyrie is more skilled than both combined


kobe and mj are 9 time all defensive first team


its not just about scoring


plus kyrie is strictly a perimeter/layup scorer. he can't back people down/post up


just kill yourself already FFS

[bigkingsfan]

find me a kibe windmill dunk after the 2003 season

he did like 6 or 7 full extension windmills prior to that major knee injury in the 2003 playoffs


and im not talking a baseline reverse.. im talking about a real one


kobe didnt have the verticality anymore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38jLTAWnc1I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7p5AiYjkAM

[kennethgriffen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38jLTAWnc1I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7p5AiYjkAM


a legit windmill is a 2 foot take off

his head was barely at the bottom of the mesh... it was a poor mans windmill


he couldn't do this anymore

https://youtu.be/_7oYlp9cwzA?t=40




the 2nd one was piss poor too.. no full extension

[Manny98]

kobe and mj are 9 time all defensive first team


its not just about scoring


plus kyrie is strictly a perimeter/layup scorer. he can't back people down/post up


just kill yourself already FFS
Backing people down is all physical it's not a skill retard

Neither is defense 95% of it is based purely on physical attributes

[bigkingsfan]

a legit windmill is a 2 foot take off

his head was barely at the bottom of the mesh... it was a poor mans windmill


he couldn't do this anymore

https://youtu.be/_7oYlp9cwzA?t=40




the 2nd one was piss poor too.. no full extension
find me a kibe windmill dunk after the 2003 season :kobe:

[kennethgriffen]

find me a kibe windmill dunk after the 2003 season :kobe:


those weren't full extension legit windmills


they woulda gotten 30's in a dunk contest... the one i posted woulda gotten at least a 45 score


look at the difference in where his heads at


after injury

https://i.ibb.co/GdY4KJv/Screen-Shot-2019-02-11-at-1-27-55-PM.png



before injury

https://i.ibb.co/2vnHpg6/Screen-Shot-2019-02-11-at-1-23-55-PM.png

[bigkingsfan]

find me a kibe windmill dunk after the 2003 season :kobe:

[kennethgriffen]

find me a kibe windmill dunk after the 2003 season :kobe:



i thought i said no baseline or non full extension bullshit

but whatever... hes done some generic shitty semi windmill's that looked more like tomahawks



this is a windmill motion

https://media2.giphy.com/media/37WZHpaXJRcxa/source.gif



kobe did more of a whipping side arm motion

[bigkingsfan]

find me a kibe windmill dunk after the 2003 season :kobe:

[andgar923]

A bold claim. Just very hard to accept for a man that had every physical advantage known to basketball for a perimeter player. Skill requirements increase exponentially as athleticism drops in basketball.

He was fundamentally sound and extremely effective, yes but his moves were quite basic: Get to a spot and elevate. Excellent fakes, hesitations, and ability to pivot. But not a lot of bodily contortion or out of the box solutions needed. The majority of guys can't get away with such a straightforward skill set. All-time great skill level but THE best? Tough.
Is this a joke?

[kennethgriffen]

Is this a joke?


nobody on this forum is a bigger joke than you ... other than maybe simon of course


you're not too far behind tbh


at least he's actually crippled... whats your excuse for abusing government assistance

[paksat]

find me a kibe windmill dunk after the 2003 season

he did like 6 or 7 full extension windmills prior to that major knee injury in the 2003 playoffs


and im not talking a baseline reverse.. im talking about a real one


kobe didnt have the verticality anymore

you're just a ridiculous kobe stan at this time it's just pathetic

you're a good poster but gawd damn this is bordering on l39ron levels of stanning

you're literally worse than that mj nut hugger on this forum you bitched about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMjlW9K1AUE

the guy has to DUCK his head in like clip number 5. A 360 right after that???????????

kenneth... just stop

[72-10]

/endthread

[PickernRoller]

I see some are trying to divide the partnership by throwing wrenches....

Ain't gonna work.

[kennethgriffen]

you're just a ridiculous kobe stan at this time it's just pathetic

you're a good poster but gawd damn this is bordering on l39ron levels of stanning

you're literally worse than that mj nut hugger on this forum you bitched about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMjlW9K1AUE

the guy has to DUCK his head in like clip number 5. A 360 right after that???????????

kenneth... just stop



his head didn't get over the mesh on any of those dunks while before the knee surgery that got him in trouble in colorado he was pulling off dunks with his near near rim level


he lost a ton of athleticism... whoever denies this is just fat out retarded

[kennethgriffen]

/endthread


everyone ITT that isn't a MJ nuttboy or kobe stan is saying kobe is more skilled while mj was better


jordan did what he could do better than any guard. he got to the rim/finished and hit his 10 footers like nobodies business


his first step/power was unmatched by anyone playing at the time


his hand size was shaqlike


he could palm the ball like a grapefruit which enabled him to dunk with ease and almost change direction in mid air without losing control


he had the best career ever arguably with kareem/russell


hes ahead of kobe all time



but kobe knew more tricks/skills to make up for the fact that other guys around the league were just as fast/quick and could meet him at the rim


kobe was dunking through people while mj was hanging over them waiting for them to drop so he could flush it.. kobe just smashed through people for most of his


how anyone can't understand these points is beyond me... you jordan ******gers are relentlessly selfish/greedy and are unable to give even when you already won. you already have the GOAT or arguable one. what more do you want?

if jordan was as skilled as kobe he woulda dropped 100 in that godly frame

[Bronbron23]

everyone ITT that isn't a MJ nuttboy or kobe stan is saying kobe is more skilled while mj was better


jordan did what he could do better than any guard. he got to the rim/finished and hit his 10 footers like nobodies business


his first step/power was unmatched by anyone playing at the time


his hand size was shaqlike


he could palm the ball like a grapefruit which enabled him to dunk with ease and almost change direction in mid air without losing control


he had the best career ever arguably with kareem/russell


hes ahead of kobe all time



but kobe knew more tricks/skills to make up for the fact that other guys around the league were just as fast/quick and could meet him at the rim


kobe was dunking through people while mj was hanging over them waiting for them to drop so he could flush it.. kobe just smashed through people for most of his


how anyone can't understand these points is beyond me... you jordan ******gers are relentlessly selfish/greedy and are unable to give even when you already won. you already have the GOAT or arguable one. what more do you want?

if jordan was as skilled as kobe he woulda dropped 100 in that godly frame again outside of three point shooting I don't know where Kobe is more skilled. In every other area theyre either equal or mj is better so how is Kobe more skilled? I think because Kobe had flashier handles and took alot of crazy tough shots people think he's more skilled. I guess it just depends on what you consider more skilled.

[superduper]

Kobe's STILL the most polarizing basketball player and he's long retired

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[kennethgriffen]

again outside of three point shooting I don't know where Kobe is more skilled. In every other area theyre either equal or mj is better so how is Kobe more skilled? I think because Kobe had flashier handles and took alot of crazy tough shots people think he's more skilled. I guess it just depends on what you consider more skilled.

youre obviously biased. you might say the same about me. the proof is in the others agreeing with me on this

non mj and non kobe fans all say kobe was more skilled while mj was the better player. just because you cant see it doesnt mean its not true.

you have to accept that youre part of a minority opinion among non biased individuals

you lost. the thread speaks for itself. all 3rd party posters are on my side

stop replying already

[Bronbron23]

youre obviously biased. you might say the same about me. the proof is in the others agreeing with me on this

non mj and non kobe fans all say kobe was more skilled while mj was the better player. just because you cant see it doesnt mean its not true.

you have to accept that youre part of a minority opinion among non biased individuals

you lost. the thread speaks for itself. all 3rd party posters are on my side

stop replying already
Again I can't lose homeboy mj and Kobe are probably my 2 favorite players of all time. I just think mj is a little better is all.

And just because the majority says Kobe is more skilled it doesn't make it true either. How many times in the history of mankind has the majority been wrong? Plus I bet the majority of people on here grew up watching Kobe and only know mj from his older years and or highlight videos so even though they may say there not bias they probably kind of are.

It's all good to just say Kobe is more skilled but when you look at all the areas that make up basketball skill the only area that Kobe is more skilled at is 3 point shooting. Nobody has really been able to argue that. They just keep saying Kobe is more skilled. Couple guys said ball handling which was debunked and couple guys said footwork which was also debunked.

You and the majority are wrong on this one.

[kennethgriffen]

I just think mj is a little better is all.


nobody said kobe was better than mj

:facepalm


skills:


Ball handling: Kobe > MJ
Playmaking: Kobe = MJ
Rebounding: Kobe = MJ
Outside Shooting: Kobe > MJ
Mid Range Shooting: Kobe = MJ
Driving: MJ > Kobe
Finishing: MJ > Kobe
Post Moves: Kobe > MJ
Footwork/Counters: Kobe > MJ
Off Hand: Kobe > MJ
Defense: MJ > Kobe


and the things jordans better at kobe also does extremely well

while outside shooting is something totally out of jordans realm of possibility

[72-10]

WOW just let the thread die

[kennethgriffen]

WOW just let the thread die


seriously. nobody in their right mind has MJ as a more talented player than kobe

notice today pierce and tmac were saying "KOBE" would drop 100 in todays game


jordan is the 6 for 6 with 6 finals mvps guy. he was a winner. hes arguable goat. why isn't that enough for some people