The mainstream thinks that clutch is the reason MJ > Lebron, instead of

[3ball]

giving MJ credit for more well-rounded on-ball and off ability that allowed chemistry with more player types (ball-handlers), and allowed MJ to be coached (a system) - the lesser ball-dominance allowed better ball movement, and therefore teams that competed better on the championship level

This is the real reason MJ was better and fielded better teams; his superior clutch ability just takes him to another level on top the great teams his versatile on/off-ball ability allowed

To be the goat scorer WITHOUT dominating the ball (allowing goat teamwork/winning) is why he's goat
.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Why were the Lakers bottom of the lottery without lebron but were top 4 before he got injured?

So you're saying talent is irrelevant, that if the Lakers played like the warriors they would/should win? That's obviously ludicrous and exposes you

In your mind it doesnt matter that the warriors have 3 all time great shooters who are proven capable passers/off ball players to go along with a DPOY and elite center


In your mind Lakers could win if they played more like warriors/spurs


But that's not how it works, and talent matters. Jordan had the most talented teams on offense AND defense relative to any stars of his time.. which warps people's perceptions

[game3524]

Why were the Lakers bottom of the lottery without lebron but were top 4 before he got injured?


I don't know why Bron stans say this as if it is a positive thing. Your team going to **** when you are out doesn't tell me how great you are. It just points to how everything is built around you.

Maybe if LeBron actually bought into an offensive system instead of playing his brand of ball, his teams wouldn't go in the tank when he is out.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I don't know why Bron stans say this as if it is a positive thing. Your team going to **** when you are out doesn't tell me how great you are. It just points to how everything is built around you.

Maybe if LeBron actually bought into an offensive system instead of playing his brand of ball, his teams wouldn't go in the tank when he is out.
Why were the Lakers bottom of the league for the past 5 years?

That's lebrons fault too huh.

Haters get exposed

[game3524]

Why were the Lakers bottom of the league for the past 5 years?

That's lebrons fault too huh.

Haters get exposed

Because they were playing a bunch of kids and young teams generally don't do well.

[3ball]

Why were the Lakers bottom of the lottery without lebron but were top 4 before he got injured?


Lots of guys led lottery teams to middling playoff seeds

see MJ in 88' and 89'

In 1989, the bulls won 47 games and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without mj's 33/8/8.. so that was a lottery team that MJ led to the 89' ecf and ring in 91' (exact same roster). MJ's off-ball style allowed the ball movement needed for that team to grow and develop teamwork





Why were the Lakers bottom of the lottery without lebron


Ultimately, teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

But teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron)

Essentially, if a team is horrible without their best player, then they aren't a great team.. Lebron doesn't produce great teams; MJ does.. It's that simple





Jordan had the most talented teams on offense AND defense relative to any stars of his time..


That's poppycock and no one thought that back then

The bulls had weak offensive help and no rim protection - the original small-ball team in a big man era

And how could a player that won rings by averaging 5 more points than everyone in playoff history have more help than anyone??...:biggums: .. that makes no sense - MJ's goat PER, scoring and other stats prove he had the least help





So you're saying talent is irrelevant, that if the Lakers played like the warriors they would/should win?


No, if lebron's super-teams in Miami and Cleveland had played that way, they would've won

But they didn't, so they went 3/8

Otoh, it's a marvel to watch a player skilled enough to fit goat scoring and dominance into a dynasty system of ball movement.. harden and lebron are SO far below mj than people realize..

like, you don't think MJ enjoyed averaging 30/10/10 during his 24 games at PG? Of course he did.. :kobe:.. but he preferred winning, so he mixed in some off-ball and played a better way (ball-movement).. lebron can't come close to what MJ did because his skillset is too limited to ball-dominance
.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Because they were playing a bunch of kids and young teams generally don't do well.
So they magically became a veteran/experienced team once lebron came on board even though they're top 5 youngest team along with Chicago and phoenix?

[game3524]

So they magically became a veteran/experienced team once lebron came on board even though they're top 5 youngest team along with Chicago and phoenix?

They showed massive improvement just from last year alone. Of course, adding a great player like LeBron is going to make them significantly better.

[3ball]

Why were the Lakers lottery without lebron?


Lots of guys led lottery teams to middling playoff seeds

ultimately, teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

But teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron)

Essentially, if a team is horrible without their best player, then they aren't a great team.. Lebron doesn't produce great teams; MJ and other ball movement guys do.. It's that simple
.

[NBASTATMAN]

To be the goat scorer WITHOUT dominating the ball (allowing goat teamwork/winning) is why he's goat
.


I agree.. But when we speak about Impact Lebron is more impactful when you look at wins and losses.. MJ def the overall GOAT imo

[AlternativeAcc.]

They showed massive improvement just from last year alone. Of course, adding a great player like LeBron is going to make them significantly better.
You mean the team with julius randle, brook lopez, nance/clarkson/thomas?

The next best player after lebron this year is a one dimensional 2nd year player. (Run of the mill 18ppg no defense playing guy)

:wtf:

But yeah man, totally lebrons fault they cant win without him this year and for the past 5 years. HIS fault!

[3ball]

[/B]


I agree.. But when we speak about Impact Lebron is more impactful when you look at wins and losses.. MJ def the overall GOAT imo
Because his style causes that

teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron)

teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

MJ's bulls would not have won as much and would've cratered without him if he played that ball-dominator style like lebron.. :confusedshrug:

Essentially, if a team is horrible without their best player, then they aren't a great team.. Lebron doesn't produce great teams; MJ and other ball movement guys do.. It's that simple
.

[NBASTATMAN]

Because his style causes that

teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron)

teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

Essentially, if a team is horrible without their best player, then they aren't a great team.. Lebron doesn't produce great teams; MJ and other ball movement guys do.. It's that simple
.


You cant say that cuz even as a 18 yr old he made the CAVS 18 games better.. AS A 18 YR OLD straight from high school .. Not only that but MJ didnt play in the triangle when he came to Chi town..

All his detractors keep saying that but Magic played the same way. But he had a top 2 all time player on his team.. Tell me how do you define ball dominance?

[ImKobe]

So they magically became a veteran/experienced team once lebron came on board even though they're top 5 youngest team along with Chicago and phoenix?

They didn't just add Lebron, they also added Rondo, Stephenson, McGee, Chandler... you know, guys who have tons of Playoff experience.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Because his style causes that

teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron)

teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

MJ's bulls would not have won as much and would've cratered without him if he played that ball-dominator style like lebron.. :confusedshrug:

Essentially, if a team is horrible without their best player, then they aren't a great team.. Lebron doesn't produce great teams; MJ and other ball movement guys do.. It's that simple
.
Where does talent/experience come into the equation?

[NBASTATMAN]

They didn't just add Lebron, they also added Rondo, Stephenson, McGee, Chandler... you know, guys who have tons of Playoff experience.


Yet they still went 6-12 without him .. DUH

THE CAVS SCUK WITHOUT HIM.. THE HEAT SCUKED WITHOUT HIM and ADDED A all star to fill in at his position..


NO EXCUSES THE GUY IS UP THERE WITH MJ.. Not as good in my opinion but he is up there..

[AlternativeAcc.]

They didn't just add Lebron, they also added Rondo, Stephenson, McGee, Chandler... you know, guys who have tons of Playoff experience.
You mean castaway forgotten scrubs that nobody cared or talked about unless to be clowned hardcore before they played with LeBron?

Sounds about right :oldlol:

[3ball]

You cant say that cuz even as a 18 yr old he made the CAVS 18 games better.. AS A 18 YR OLD straight from high school .. Not only that but MJ didnt play in the triangle when he came to Chi town..
MJ made the wizards 18 games better as a geriatric

Lebron and Bosh only improved the heat 11 games, like rookie MJ

So they both had their impacts

Again, teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron), whereas teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

MJ's bulls would've won less cratered without him if he played that ball-dominator style like lebron.. :confusedshrug:

[Spurs m8]

Why were the Lakers bottom of the lottery without lebron but were top 4 before he got injured?

So you're saying talent is irrelevant, that if the Lakers played like the warriors they would/should win? That's obviously ludicrous and exposes you

In your mind it doesnt matter that the warriors have 3 all time great shooters who are proven capable passers/off ball players to go along with a DPOY and elite center


In your mind Lakers could win if they played more like warriors/spurs


But that's not how it works, and talent matters. Jordan had the most talented teams on offense AND defense relative to any stars of his time.. which warps people's perceptions

We just gonna omit the fact they started with an extremely easy schedule?

You bron stans NEVER use context...ever....you deceptive f@ggot

[NBASTATMAN]

You mean castaway forgotten scrubs that nobody cared or talked about unless to be clowned hardcore before they played with LeBron?

Sounds about right :oldlol:


YET THEY STILL WENT 6-12.. LAUGHABLE

[NBASTATMAN]

MJ made the wizards 18 games better as a geriatric

Lebron and Bosh only improved the heat 11 games, like rookie MJ

So they both had their impacts

Again, teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron), whereas teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

MJ's bulls would've won less cratered without him if he played that ball-dominator style like lebron.. :confusedshrug:


YOUR ARGUMENT FALLS ON ITS FACE CUZ YOU ADDED CURRY.. GSW scuks without him yet plays the type of ball you talk about..


FACE IT YOU DONT WANT TO GIVE LEBRON HIS PROPS..

As for MJ he is the GOAT .. Tell me he won 18 more games as a old guy yet KOBE couldnt even with 18 after his injury.. Yet Wilkins was amazing after it.. LOL

[3ball]

YET THEY STILL WENT 6-12.. LAUGHABLE
If the team had been based on ball-movement instead of lebron's ball-dominance, they would've done better

Of course, simply having a healthy rondo/kuzma/lonzo would've won the Lakers 3-4 more games so they were 10-8 or so and borderline playoffs

But facts don't matter to the media/Lebron fans

[3ball]

YOUR ARGUMENT FALLS ON ITS FACE CUZ YOU ADDED CURRY.. GSW scuks without him yet plays the type of ball you talk about..


FACE IT YOU DONT WANT TO GIVE LEBRON HIS PROPS..

As for MJ he is the GOAT .. Tell me he won 18 more games as a old guy yet KOBE couldnt even with 18 after his injury.. Yet Wilkins was amazing after it.. LOL
The Warriors aren't lottery and at least borderline .500 without Curry

And curry isn't their best player - they won 73 without durant, and would probably win 50+ without Curry in a full season

[AlternativeAcc.]

The Warriors aren't lottery and at least borderline .500 without Curry

And curry isn't their best player - they won 73 without durant, and would probably win 50+ without Curry in a full season
You mean a team with 5 perennial allstars would win 50 games if 1 of their allstars got hurt?

Would still have 4x as many allstars as the Lakers.. and a fmvp on their bench

How come you never mention talent or competition? You cower from the truth

[NBASTATMAN]

If the team had been based on ball-movement instead of lebron's ball-dominance, they would've done better

Of course, simply having a healthy rondo/kuzma/lonzo would've won the Lakers 3-4 more games so they were 10-8 or so and borderline playoffs

But facts don't matter to the media/Lebron fans


This Laker team has plenty of guys who do what Lebron does.. So you argument is way off base. Ball movement works when guys can shoot.. THE CURRENT LAKERS are the worse shooting team in the league with Lebron or without him..

Rondo missed plenty of games and so did Brandon Ingram while the Lakers were doing well with Lebron.. The Lakers lost cuz they just dont know how to win yet..

Are the Lakers better defensively without Bron ? YES.. The dude just cant play defense anymore.. He has played 56k minutes but his overall presence is a plus..

BTW you never answered my question on how do you measure a players ball dominance? Cuz Magic played similar to Lebron ..

[NBASTATMAN]

The Warriors aren't lottery and at least borderline .500 without Curry

And curry isn't their best player - they won 73 without durant, and would probably win 50+ without Curry in a full season


Curry is by far there most important player and you know that..

Durant is on record, saying its much tougher without Curry.. They went less than .500 this season without Curry but you say a team that moves the ball will play fine no matter what..

Yea when your player is Curry and he is the CRAZIEST OFFENSIVE WEAPON EVER..

[NBASTATMAN]

You mean a team with 5 perennial allstars would win 50 games if 1 of their allstars got hurt?

Would still have 4x as many allstars as the Lakers.. and a fmvp on their bench

How come you never mention talent or competition? You cower from the truth


YEP .

[3ball]

How come you never mention talent or competition? You cower from the truth


Every team needs sufficient talent to win, and lebron's super-teams in Miami and Cleveland had enough talent but ceded dominant team/favorite status to other teams every year from 11-18', except 13'

Why didn't lebron's super-teams have dominant favorites and flirt with 70 wins like kawhi and curry? Because his teams lack the ball movement that curry/kawhi's squads have, due to lebron's ball-dominance.. :confusedshrug:

Regarding the Lakers - they'd be better with a leader like MJ that promoted better ball movement.. they have 3 guys better than 89' pippen, but look to get swept in the 1st round, while 89' MJ took the champs 6 games in ecf..

[ImKobe]

You mean castaway forgotten scrubs that nobody cared or talked about unless to be clowned hardcore before they played with LeBron?

Sounds about right :oldlol:

The same Rondo that shut down Lillard & swept Portland and won more games against the Warriors last year than Le 3/9

[NBASTATMAN]

Every team needs sufficient talent to win, and lebron's super-teams in Miami and Cleveland had enough talent but ceded dominant team/favorite status to other teams every year from 11-18', except 13'

Why didn't lebron's super-teams have dominant favorites and flirt with 70 wins like kawhi and curry? Because his teams lack the ball movement that curry/kawhi's squads have, due to lebron's ball-dominance.. :confusedshrug:

Regarding the Lakers - they'd be better with a leader like MJ that promoted better ball movement.. they have 3 guys better than 89' pippen, but look to get swept in the 1st round, while 89' MJ took the champs 6 games in ecf..


What do you mean 2013 HEAT won like 66 games I believe.. Wade missed like 13 games that season , Bosh missed like 8 and Lebron missed 6.. As for KAWHI his team won like 50 games without him last season.. And the season he and his team won 67 games they lost to OKC in the playoffs..

[NBASTATMAN]

The same Rondo that shut down Lillard & swept Portland and won more games against the Warriors last year than Le 3/9


The same Rondo THAT PLAYED WITH AD, COUSINS, JRUE HOLIDAY and in the 48 games they played together won 27 games..

WOW BIG TIME IMPACT.. He played with three all stars and their record was 27-21 :roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

OF COURSE 3BALL HIDES AND DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION I ASKED HIM

How do you measure a players ball dominance ? Simple question..

I KNOW HE IS LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT FITS HIS AGENDA. .

[3ball]

OF COURSE 3BALL HIDES AND DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION I ASKED HIM

How do you measure a players ball dominance ? Simple question..

I KNOW HE IS LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT FITS HIS AGENDA. .
Anyone that holds the ball a point guard level - so 5+ minutes per game

The NBA used to show the time of possession stats until they found out it was being used to expose lebron

You guys brag about his recent Finals stats, but he held the ball for 11-12 minutes in the 15' and 18' Finals, or 30- 50% more than regular season leaders Wall and Westbrook (8-9 minutes).. lebron is literally the most ball-dominant player of all time.. he held it for 8.2 minutes in 2017, or equal with RS leader westbrook

Yet you laud his ball-dominant stats instead of knocking him for lacking the ball movement that would allow better teams like what Duncan and MJ had

[FKAri]

This is one of the best threads 3ball has ever made :applause:

Though I have a small bone to pick. It's not really off ball dominance so much as just his ability to score on demand. MJ was pretty damn ball dominant in the 80's.

[NBASTATMAN]

Anyone that holds the ball a point guard level - so 5+ minutes per game

The NBA used to show the time of possession stats until they found out it was being used to expose lebron

You guys brag about his recent Finals stats, but he held the ball for 11-12 minutes in the 15' and 18' Finals, or 30- 50% more than regular season leaders wall and Westbrook (8-9 minutes).. lebron is literally the most ball-dominant player of all time

Yet you laud his ball-dominant stats instead of knocking him for lacking the ball movement that would allow better teams like what Duncan and MJ had


I need a stat I can look at and compare vs others.. What do you think about USAGE? Does it fit your agenda ?

[NBASTATMAN]

The same Rondo THAT PLAYED WITH AD, COUSINS, JRUE HOLIDAY and in the 48 games they played together won 27 games..

WOW BIG TIME IMPACT.. He played with three all stars and their record was 27-21 :roll:


Not just any all stars either.. Two of the top 10 guys in the league and one of the better defenders in the league.. Yet they managed a 27-21 record.. :oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

This is one of the best threads 3ball has ever made :applause:

Though I have a small bone to pick. It's not really off ball dominance so much as just his ability to score on demand. MJ was pretty damn ball dominant in the 80's.


He is hiding and looking for some bs that fits his agenda.. :roll:

[ImKobe]

The same Rondo THAT PLAYED WITH AD, COUSINS, JRUE HOLIDAY and in the 48 games they played together won 27 games..

WOW BIG TIME IMPACT.. He played with three all stars and their record was 27-21 :roll:

They swept Portland without Cousins and NO was 41 - 24 last season in games that Rondo played. :facepalm He almost averaged a triple-double and led the Playoffs in APG, but what do I know :rolleyes:

[NBASTATMAN]

They swept Portland without Cousins and NO was 41 - 24 last season in games that Rondo played. :facepalm He almost averaged a triple-double and led the Playoffs in APG, but what do I know :rolleyes:


Plenty to do with Mirotic coming and spacing the floor for AD and company. The Bulls were 15-12 with Mirotic and 12-43 without Mirotic..

Once they lost Cousins they lost 5 of 6 games before Mirotic joined them.

Once Mirotic came to NO they were something like 20-11 with him and 28-23 without him..

[3ball]

I need a stat I can look at and compare vs others.. What do you think about USAGE? Does it fit your agenda ?


Usage measures how often a player finished a possession - so shot attempts and turnovers - that's it...

A player doesn't need to hold the ball to have high usage - just finish the possession (shoot it or turn it over)

Otoh, time of possession measures the length of time a player held the ball during the game - this is the only measure of ball-dominance.. the guys that bring the ball up and use the most live dribbles have the highest time of possession - that's point-guards - the top 25 players for time of possession were all PG's, except lebron of course
.

[TheCorporation]

I sincerely apologize in advance for offending anyone but the devastating facts remain:

https://i.postimg.cc/Jnd16J6V/Bron-gw-post.jpg

More post season game winners than both, combined.

[3ball]

I sincerely apologize in advance for offending anyone but the devastating facts remain:

https://i.postimg.cc/Jnd16J6V/Bron-gw-post.jpg

More post season game winners than both, combined.
lebron needed 60 more playoff games

Thru 179 games, mj had more of everything

And when you include all clutch shots, MJ has so many that lebron's 60 extra games doesn't matter.. :eek::


Playoff game-winners/tie-ers with 24 seconds or less
– Jordan 9/18 (50%)
– LeBron 8/23 (35%)

Playoff game-winners/tie-ers with 25 seconds or less
– Jordan 10/19 (53%)
– LeBron 8/23 (35%)

Finals game-winners/tie-ers with 25 seconds or less
– Jordan 4/8 (50%)
– LeBron 0/6 (0%)

[TheCorporation]

[QUOTE=3ball]He needed 60 more playoff games

Thru 179 games, mj had more of everything

And when you include ALL the types of clutch, MJ has so many that lebron's game advantage doesn't matter:

[INDENT][I][SIZE="1"]Playoff game-winners/tie-ers with 24 seconds or less

[3ball]

He played more games?! I guess that's what happens when you don't get swept in the first round three times or play baseball? :confusedshrug:
Again, you're graphic is shit

MJ hit more clutch shots

And his 4th quarter stats destroy lebron's

[TheCorporation]

Again, you're graphic is shit

MJ hit more clutch shots

And his 4th quarter stats destroy lebron's

Facts are shit? Interesting...

[3ball]

This is one of the best threads 3ball has ever made :applause:

Though I have a small bone to pick. It's not really off ball dominance so much as just his ability to score on demand. MJ was pretty damn ball dominant in the 80's.


Watch the ****ing tape

Young MJ didn't bring the ball up court, and played off-ball except the 2nd half of the 89' season and those playoffs.. otherwise, from his time under Dean Smith and rookie year, he played off-ball like any off-guard does

If you think he needed and used the same dribbling as lebron, then ur blind, or lack the basic knowledge to differentiate between off-ball scoring and ball-dominance (live dribbling). Other than the latter part of 89', MJ never play point guard or the primary ball-handler role.. I'm not saying he never dominated the ball, but there was a significant mix - he was assisted on around half his buckets, not the low-assisted rates seen of pg's and lebron.

You guys are sounding pretty ignorant about the game - you regarding MJ's game and STATMAN in post #40 (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13598981&postcount=40) about usage.. :facepalm.
.

[NBAGOAT]

all true but this factor gets overvalued way too much. It's like the difference between putting bron 3 and 5 on an all time list. No should be moving bron from top 5 to outside top 10 because he's too ball dominant. On the same token no one's moving Bird from his usual spots on all time lists to the greatest of all time because he's one of the goat off ball players.

[NBAGOAT]

I don't know why Bron stans say this as if it is a positive thing. Your team going to **** when you are out doesn't tell me how great you are. It just points to how everything is built around you.

Maybe if LeBron actually bought into an offensive system instead of playing his brand of ball, his teams wouldn't go in the tank when he is out.

because this is the soul of measuring how good a player is. How much better do you make your team. Yes a lot of context goes into it like how the team is built etc.

However if your team maintains their level of play or hell plays better without you, your impact should be doubted. You're truly nothing but an empty stats guy if your team gets better without you. The best metrics imo are measuring some better version of +/- since box scores only give certain information.

I would argue sometimes a player is so good it is stupid not to build a system around them. see someone like nash who could carry the suns fairly well even without amare but as soon as he went out, the team sucked. He was the engine of that team but it was also built correctly. Sometimes it's not even the system, your team is just not talented like some kg or dirk casts.

[3ball]

all true but this factor gets overvalued way too much. It's like the difference between putting bron 3 and 5 on an all time list. No should be moving bron from top 5 to outside top 10 because he's too ball dominant. On the same token no one's moving Bird from his usual spots on all time lists to the greatest of all time because he's one of the goat off ball players

.
You don't understand how lebron's approach of ball-dominance over ball movement affects things... Lebron/Harden-ball prevents ball movement and teamwork, and therefore the development of teammates/teams.... Hence the need to team-hop for ready-made talent/vets

And Lebron would have zero rings without team-hopping, which leaves him with no argument over Duncan, Bird, MJ.. Even Dirk and Malone compare well when you take out the team-hopping.. And he needed the ray/kyrie shots - without BOTH the clutch help and team-hopping, he would have 0-1 rings

Furthermore, his ball-dominance prevents him from being coached - Lebron rejects coaching like he did with Walton (https://sports.yahoo.com/lebron-james-reportedly-ignoring-luke-waltons-play-calls-nobodys-surprise-210514450.html), Lue (http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/lebron-james-attitude-listen-to-tyronne-lue-cavs-heat-david-blatt/hjmyp8w984gi1xkzex534zc19), Blatt (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/12/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-david-blatt-rift), and Spolestra (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-miami-heat-news-0402-20150401-story.html)

He's never accepted coaching and always ran lebron-ball instead - so the next Phil Jackson wasn't allowed

So to summarize, lebron's approach of ball-dominance over ball movement results in the need to team-hop for ready-made talent and prevents coaching that can yield the best teamwork..





this factor gets overvalued way too much


No it doesn't - the media doesn't talk about how lebron's ball-dominance causes low ball movement/low assist teams - they say clutch is why MJ is better

But lebron's approach of ball-dominance over ball movement results in the need to team-hop for ready-made talent and prevents coaching that can yield the best teamwork..

Ultimately, the problem is that lebron starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor, which reduces ball-time and assists for the other 3 teammates compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups.. lower teammate assists results in low TEAM assist rankings.

Contrastingly, magic and ben simmons started at PG, and their 1-pg lineup allowed high team assist rankings.. but 2-pg lineups (lebron/harden-ball) give the remaining 3 teammates less time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups, which results in low TEAM assist rankings.. it's harder to win with low ball movement and low assist teams, so 3/9 happens (1/9 without ray and kyrie shots)
.

[NBASTATMAN]

Again, you're graphic is shit

MJ hit more clutch shots

And his 4th quarter stats destroy lebron's


I agree MJ is the best but KOBE IS BY FAR THE WORSE.. His fourth quarter stats are garbage.. He shot less than 30 percent in pretty much all of his finals where Shaq wasnt there to carry him.

YOU KNOW ITS TRUE. :lol

I write the truth so its easy for me to win.. Notice how I had no problem saying MJ s fourth quarters trump anyone else.. But Kobe s are really bad.. :banana:

[RealSkipBayless]

Why were the Lakers bottom of the lottery without lebron but were top 4 before he got injured?

Ease of schedule.

Next.

[NBASTATMAN]

Usage measures how often a player finished a possession - so shot attempts and turnovers - that's it...

A player doesn't need to hold the ball to have high usage - just finish the possession (shoot it or turn it over)

Otoh, time of possession measures the length of time a player held the ball during the game - this is the only measure of ball-dominance.. the guys that bring the ball up and use the most live dribbles have the highest time of possession - that's point-guards - the top 25 players for time of possession were all PG's, except lebron of course
.


SO TIME OF POSSESSION IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT ? CORRECT

[NBASTATMAN]

Your entire reasoning is that Lebron s time of possession is too large yet Kyrie usually led in time of possession when he played with Bron..

And Lebron is never at the top of the list.. I HAVE SHIT ON YOUR ARGUMENT..

Dont think I didnt notice you take a long time and look UP these stats and then say that 5 MINUTES was too long .. Of course its too long that SUPPORTS YOUR SHIT AGENDA.. FACTS ARE LEBRON IS NEVER AT THE TOP


https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1



https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

[NBASTATMAN]

Ease of schedule.

Next.


You are correct they had an easy schedule when LEBRON was out ? They played NY, CLE, SUNS, CHICAGO in those 18 games. They won 6 :facepalm

[NBASTATMAN]

Bump

[3ball]

What do you mean 2013 HEAT won like 66 games I believe.. Wade missed like 13 games that season , Bosh missed like 8 and Lebron missed 6.. As for KAWHI his team won like 50 games without him last season.. And the season he and his team won 67 games they lost to OKC in the playoffs..
Dynasties are perennial favorites every year, not one-offs

Spurs, 90's Bulls, Warriors and Shaq/Kobe Lakers were favorites heading into most of their Finals - and those are the only dynasties in the last 25 yrs

Lebron was only the favorite in 2 of his 9 Finals

[Round Mound]

3-ball we al know MJ is the GOAT :rolleyes: :confusedshrug:

[Vino24]

why does LeBron have more clutch shots in the playoffs then MJ?

[GimmeThat]

so we're at the point even if discount Jordan's 2 seasons with the Wizard with Lebron's first 2 seasons in the season, the rate of Lebron's diminishing ability outweighs Jordan's peak

as far as science goes, it's indicating Lebron's more skillful. note, holding on to ball and not making any mistake does not make one skillful.

that would be critical thinking ability, and hence the mainstream lacks the comprehension for Lebron to switch franchises.

[3ball]

Your entire reasoning is that Lebron s time of possession is too large yet Kyrie usually led in time of possession when he played with Bron..

And Lebron is never at the top of the list.. I HAVE SHIT ON YOUR ARGUMENT..

Dont think I didnt notice you take a long time and look UP these stats and then say that 5 MINUTES was too long .. Of course its too long that SUPPORTS YOUR SHIT AGENDA.. FACTS ARE LEBRON IS NEVER AT THE TOP


https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1



https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1
You don't get it - Lebron's abnormally-high time of possession for his position essentially creates a 2-PG lineup with Kyrie - 2 guys that have a PG-level time of possession

So teammates have less time with the ball and assists in a 2-PG lineup (2 guys dribbling a lot), than 1-PG lineups (1 guy dribbling, so teammates have more time with the ball)

Lebron's teams are 2-PG lineups because he gives the team a 2nd ball-dominator on the floor - he simply lacks the skillset to get stats like Durant/Kawhi without dominating the ball

[guy]

The media does do a terrible job explaining why Jordan is better beyond the rings argument.

[Turbo Slayer]

There's three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count and those who can't. One of those people is 3ball.