Time Of Possession Stats For Players [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Matppak

02-14-2019, 10:21 PM

First thing I notice is that 2015-2016 Curry time of poss is larger than Lebron in that same year.. Curry time of poss is 5.8 minutes to Lebron's 5.3 minutes..

This cant be correct because he plays off the ball so much.. :roll: :banana:

Good job at looking at stats and not using context. Lebron had a avg season for a "goat" player in 16 because he was dominating the ball less so as we keep telling you lebron stans ofc we he gets on the ball more in 17 18 19 his stats go up to.. almost like he has to dominate the ball to put up numbers.. :wtf: Curry avgd 30ppg 6 last and 5rebs shooting 50 40 90 lebron put up some of his career lowest 25 30% from 3 below career ast and avg career rebounds.

Durant's Mvp season he avgd 68 touches a game and 3.9 top will lebron avgd 77 touches and 5.5 top and he put up better numbers than lebron with limited interference to the flow of the offense.

Kyrie may have a longer TOP than lebron but Lebron always has had more touches a game. If you ever watched those Cavs teams the offense was lebron brings up the ball tries to A shot B drive or C pass for a 3 off a screen or drive and kick so when that wasn't open or the offense hadn't worked the ball would get dumped to kyrie with 7 secs left on the shot clock to try and make something from nothing.

tpols

02-14-2019, 10:24 PM

Luca Doncic is at 5.9 minutes a game this season while Lebron is at 6.3 minutes a game.. I guess that is a bad thing.. You know letting the guy that makes the best decisions with the ball handle the ball the most.. :facepalm

By the way HARDEN isnt the pg and his time of poss is way higher than Bron's..

ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE BEING EXPOSED.. KEEP MOVING THE GOAL POSTS but I still shit on your theories. :oldlol:

yea and guess what...? the current mavs have a 25th team assist rank.

Look at team assist ranks (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/assists-per-game) for this year.

It is skewed by all the top contenders being the best assist teams, and of course the dominant #1 favorite being the best assist team.

And historically teams needed a great combination of teamwork and talent to be dynasties ala '00s spurs, '00s lakers, 90s bulls, 90s rockets, 80s celtics, 80s lakers, and beyond.

NBASTATMAN

02-14-2019, 10:26 PM

Good job at looking at stats and not using context. Lebron had a avg season for a "goat" player in 16 because he was dominating the ball less so as we keep telling you lebron stans ofc we he gets on the ball more in 17 18 19 his stats go up to.. almost like he has to dominate the ball to put up numbers.. :wtf: Curry avgd 30ppg 6 last and 5rebs shooting 50 40 90 lebron put up some of his career lowest 25 30% from 3 below career ast and avg career rebounds.

Durant's Mvp season he avgd 68 touches a game and 3.9 top will lebron avgd 77 touches and 5.5 top and he put up better numbers than lebron with limited interference to the flow of the offense.

Kyrie may have a longer TOP than lebron but Lebron always has had more touches a game. If you ever watched those Cavs teams the offense was lebron brings up the ball tries to A shot B drive or C pass for a 3 off a screen or drive and kick so when that wasn't open or the offense hadn't worked the ball would get dumped to kyrie with 7 secs left on the shot clock to try and make something from nothing.

3BALL WITH HIS ALT ACCOUNT. ... Now its touches no longer time of poss.. Keep moving the GOAL POSTS , Lebron is still top three all time..

NBASTATMAN

02-14-2019, 10:29 PM

Look at team assist ranks (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/assists-per-game) for this year.

I told you all they would keep moving the GOAL POSTS.. :banana:

Gus Hemmingway

02-14-2019, 10:29 PM

yikes

Lebron ball activisites doing backflips trying to make sense of this

Tpols auditioning for the circus with all the hoops he's jumping through :lol

BarberSchool

02-14-2019, 10:29 PM

This only reinforces my utter disdain for low efficiency shoot first PG's who are overly animated in disingenuous/unecessary/suspicious ways. I would like to cross reference with # of siblings, # of parents, and IQ.

Matppak

02-14-2019, 10:33 PM

3BALL WITH HIS ALT ACCOUNT. ... Now its touches no longer time of poss.. Keep moving the GOAL POSTS , Lebron is still top three all time..

Yea I'm not 3ball. i guess just more people understand basketball. Using All stats context and wins isn't moving the goal post its using logic. Instead of lebron stans looking at 1 stat then ignoring everything else then using another stat to contradict what they said before. Good job not even being able to come up with a solid rebuttal what's next YOUR JUST A HATER....

NBASTATMAN

02-14-2019, 10:40 PM

Yea I'm not 3ball. i guess just more people understand basketball. Using All stats context and wins isn't moving the goal post its using logic. Instead of lebron stans looking at 1 stat then ignoring everything else then using another stat to contradict what they said before. Good job not even being able to come up with a solid rebuttal what's next YOUR JUST A HATER....

DUDE YOU HAVE 54 POSTS.. I know you' re an ALT.. So go hide in your basement ..

Matppak

02-14-2019, 10:48 PM

yea and guess what...? the current mavs have a 25th team assist rank.

Look at team assist ranks (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/assists-per-game) for this year.

It is skewed by all the top contenders being the best assist teams, and of course the dominant #1 favorite being the best assist team.

And historically teams needed a great combination of teamwork and talent to be dynasties ala '00s spurs, '00s lakers, 90s bulls, 90s rockets, 80s celtics, 80s lakers, and beyond.

Not just assist numbers though you can look at passes made stats back to 14 and see lebron teams and anywhere from 40 to 100 less passes than league leaders and the teams that win most

Matppak

02-14-2019, 10:52 PM

DUDE YOU HAVE 54 POSTS.. I know your an ALT.. So go hide in your basement ..

Sorry my house doesn't have a basement. You ever think someone could have just signed up to the forum? Or does having more than 1 person with legitimate arguments that destroy yours trigger you so bad that you think it has to be the same person?

tamaraw08

02-14-2019, 11:23 PM

i dont think you understand that lebron plays SF... he is the largest non-PG time of possession player in the league many years. and that matters because it means all his teams are iso teams... like the '11 heat with everyone in their primes having a 26th team assist rank. They never reach peak teamwork.

Believe it or not but I'll rather watch better ball movement and motion offense etc but this shit works for Lebron's and Harden's (btw not a natural PG) teams etc.
If their teams always ranked outside top 8 in ORTG, then yes that low team assist idea might hold water but it's not.:(
Lebron with Kyrie was ALWAYS top 3 in ORTG,
while Harden's teams are also way up there, even with 3ball's top 75 ORTG.
Even in the Finals when Lebron's teams lost, their ORTG were high.
If you look at the link, Lebron only ranked 57th in average seconds per touch at 4.55 seconds this link go as far as 2013 so it reveals Kobe held the ball LONGER at 4.83 seconds. :eek:
BTW Kobe had averaged 5.9 mins time of possesion as compared to Lebron's 5.5 mins. but but but that's Kobe, right?
http://https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

NBASTATMAN

02-14-2019, 11:25 PM

Believe it or not but I'll rather watch better ball movement and motion offense etc but this shit works for Lebron's and Harden's (btw not a natural PG) teams etc.
If their teams always ranked outside top 8 in ORTG, then yes that low team assist idea might hold water but it's not.:(
Lebron with Kyrie was ALWAYS top 3 in ORTG,
while Harden's teams are also way up there, even with 3ball's top 75 ORTG.
Even in the Finals when Lebron's teams lost, their ORTG were high.
If you look at the link, Lebron only ranked 57th in average seconds per touch at 4.55 seconds this link go as far as 2013 so it reveals Kobe held the ball LONGER at 4.83 seconds. :eek:
BTW Kobe had averaged 4.9 mins time of possesion as compared to Lebron's 5.5 mins. but but but that's Kobe, right?
http://https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

where 3 ball at ? They will try to move the GOAL POSTS.. BUT BRON STILL TOP 3

tamaraw08

02-14-2019, 11:32 PM

where 3 ball at ? They will try to move the GOAL POSTS.. BUT BRON STILL TOP 3

It's amazing how 3ball can come up with the craziest rebuttal esp when I mentioned that Lebron's teams in the finals actually have a higher ORTG than MJ's teams, he said, well... aheemm, GSW sucked on defense. The team that ranked high on defense, comprised of KD, Klay,Green, Iggy etc etc. :facepalm

NBASTATMAN

02-14-2019, 11:35 PM

It's amazing how 3ball can come up with the craziest rebuttal esp when I mentioned that Lebron's teams in the finals actually have a higher ORTG than MJ's teams, he said, well... aheemm, GSW sucked on defense. The team that ranked high on defense, comprised of KD, Klay,Green, Iggy etc etc. :facepalm

Dude is full of shit.. Cuz I shitted on him all day today.. :lol

He bought up time of possession

Gileraracer

02-15-2019, 06:18 AM

Lebron 2018 finals: 11.5 :eek:
#

Single handedly lost that series for Cleveland. No team will ever win with one guy just holding the ball for the first 20 shot clock seconds.

ronniec

02-15-2019, 11:34 AM

Lebron 2018 finals: 11.5 :eek:
#

Single handedly lost that series for Cleveland. No team will ever win with one guy just holding the ball for the first 20 shot clock seconds.

If this is true (11.5 seconds out of 24), it is just a shame...

It was either him getting the basket/points, or assist.

This fvcking "point forward" concept.

tamaraw08

02-15-2019, 11:45 AM

Lebron 2018 finals: 11.5 :eek:
#

Single handedly lost that series for Cleveland. No team will ever win with one guy just holding the ball for the first 20 shot clock seconds.

Again, most of you Lebron haters have repeatedly ignored this fact.
That Cavs team had a ORTG of 108.5, you guys know what ORTG means right?:confusedshrug:
now compare the ORTG of MJ's finals teams and guess which teams were more productive.
I am not saying Lebron is perfect and that he has no weaknesses. A bad defender, bad midrange game etc etc.
This crap idea that holding the ball too long is killing a team's offensive flow etc contradicts to the results. Harden's and Lebron's teams were always in the top 5 in offensive efficiency.

ronniec

02-15-2019, 11:57 AM

Again, most of you Lebron haters have repeatedly ignored this fact.
That Cavs team had a ORTG of 108.5, you guys know what ORTG means right?:confusedshrug:
now compare the ORTG of MJ's finals teams and guess which teams were more productive.
I am not saying Lebron is perfect and that he has no weaknesses. A bad defender, bad midrange game etc etc.
This crap idea that holding the ball too long is killing a team's offensive flow etc contradicts to the results. Harden's and Lebron's teams were always in the top 5 in offensive efficiency.

Yes, I agree that this type of basketball is efficient, but only benefits Lebron and Harden.

Their teammates all got waved off and WAITING for things to happen.

For both Lakers and Rockets, I'd prefer to see Rondo and CP3 handling the ball more and the offense is generated by them instead of Lebron and Harden.
There are more ball movement, more players get involved and touches.
More fun to watch of course.

tamaraw08

02-15-2019, 12:11 PM

Yes, I agree that this type of basketball is efficient, but only benefits Lebron and Harden.

Their teammates all got waved off and WAITING for things to happen.

For both Lakers and Rockets, I'd prefer to see Rondo and CP3 handling the ball more and the offense is generated by them instead of Lebron and Harden.
There are more ball movement, more players get involved and touches.
More fun to watch of course.

And yes I agree. I also would prefer Rondo handling the ball and Ray Allen coming off screens from Perkins etc. I would also preferred MJ and Kobe not to take 28 shots/game and instead set up their teammates more....
but you can't argue with results. Their teams were were producing at a high rate. Lebron's current team looked like trash because he's success is tied in with 3pt accuracy.

ronniec

02-15-2019, 12:20 PM

And yes I agree. I also would prefer Rondo handling the ball and Ray Allen coming off screens from Perkins etc. I would also preferred MJ and Kobe not to take 28 shots/game and instead set up their teammates more....
but you can't argue with results. Their teams were were producing at a high rate. Lebron's current team looked like trash because he's success is tied in with 3pt accuracy.

MJ and Kobe taking more shots than their teammates because they were shooting guards and they were satisfied as being a SG.
They did not label themselves and had the burden of "ability to play 1-5 and guard 1-5".
They were SG, their main job was to shoot and score.
They did not pass more or possess the ball more, not that they could not. They played under a system, the triangle offense.

Producing at a high rate in regular is one thing, able to produce a high rate in playoff is another.
You may win a couple of rings by playing Bron-ball or Harden-ball, but team ball wins most of the time.
Also, Harden doesn't have much success in the playoff at all.

3ball

02-15-2019, 01:13 PM

The time of possession stats are back? :cheers: ... this is the stat that exposes his game and explains 3/9.. I'm going in

I hear Lebron fans claiming that lebron isn't #1 in time of possession, or that kyrie had higher time of possession

You're missing the point

Lebron's pg-level time of possession (5+ minutes) gives his team 2 point guards - 2 players with pg-level time of possession.. lebron/kyrie and lebron/chalmers BOTH brought the ball up the court and were the ball-handler in screen rolls

This is a problem because it reduces ball-time and assists for the other 3 teammates compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups.. lower teammate assists results in low TEAM assist rankings.

Contrastingly, magic and ben simmons started at PG, and their 1-pg lineup allowed high team assist rankings.. but 2-pg lineups (lebron/harden/doncic-ball) give the remaining 3 teammates less time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups, which results in low TEAM assist rankings.. it's harder to win with low ball movement and low assist teams, especially in the championship round, so 3/9 happens (1/9 without ray and kyrie shots)

And doncic is like lebron by NOT starting at PG, and but then becoming a 2nd PG on the floor (2nd player with a PG time of possession)... so I'm selling some of my doncic "stock" right now, because I know his teams will fall short at the championship level like lebron's unless he starts at PG or develops an off-ball game (lowers his time of possession).. I'm still very high on doncic individually (maybe he's the next bird), but his teams will struggle to win rings like lebron's because his game is too ball-dominant for a non-PG position

Btw, guys like Blake and Derozan also have 5+ minutes time of possession as non-PG's.. I'm not sure if they bring the ball up, but the concept is the same - their high time of possession gives their team 2 on-court players with high time of possession, reducing time and assist opportunity for teammates and the team.. indeed, the Pistons rank 27th in assists and the Spurs system ranks only 12th, or below their standard in the kawhi/duncan years

In addition to the time of possession stat, a player's assisted rate (how much teammates assist them) is another way to gauge a player's ball-dominance... PG's usually score on their own via live dribble and accordingly, have low assisted rates (20-30%).. every other position has high assisted rates of varying degrees (45-75%).. accordingly, guys like doncic, lebron, and harden turn a high-assisted position (sg or forward) into a low-assisted one (a 2nd pg), thereby lowering the assist capacity of the team relative to 1-pg lineups on other teams.. and it's intuitive - ball-dominance kills ball movement, so having 2 guys with pg-level ball-dominance results in weaker ball movement and teams

Currently, the teams in the league with 2-pg lineups (or 2 guys with pg-level time of possession, 5+ min) all rank low in assists: Lakers (lebron/rondo), Rockets (harden, cp3), Mavs (doncic, smith jr), Pistons (r jackson, blake).. meanwhile, curry and durant are both under 5 min, so their team ranks high in assists and ball movement.. And btw, lebron is outside the top 100 in points-per-touch; MJ would've been one of the leaders

Btw, you have to filter this stat for the regular season, playoffs and Finals... lebron in particular will increase his time by 30-100% (literally double) in the playoffs and Finals.. His Finals' time of possession was 12.0 minutes in 2015, or 50% higher than the regular season leader John Wall's 8.3 minutes.. it's probably the most anyone's ever dominated the ball.. lebron's time was at 11 minutes in 2018.
.

3ball

02-15-2019, 01:54 PM

Lebron's teams were always in the top 5 in offensive efficiency.

The Heatles peaked at #62 all-time in offensive efficiency and the recent Cavs at #26 and 46

that's a pathetic underachievement of lebron-ball compared to the best non-wilt offensive players ever - magic/curry/mj (the goat passer, shooter and scorer) - they had the top 3 offenses ever, while lebron's 2-PG approach with lebron-ball (turning the forward position into a 2nd pg) peaked at 26, 46 and 62 all-time.. :facepalm

A career of curry/mj/magic having better offenses than lebron-ball shows that their offenses were better, thereby increasing their odds of winning

Ultimately, Lebron-ball rarely applied enough pressure or wore down their Finals opponents more than they themselves were getting worn down by the opponent's superior methodology (ball movement).. lebron-ball struggled to have the upper hand and control the game flow 6 of 9 times on the championship level

tamaraw08

02-15-2019, 01:58 PM

MJ and Kobe taking more shots than their teammates because they were shooting guards and they were satisfied as being a SG.
They did not label themselves and had the burden of "ability to play 1-5 and guard 1-5".
They were SG, their main job was to shoot and score.
They did not pass more or possess the ball more, not that they could not. They played under a system, the triangle offense.

Producing at a high rate in regular is one thing, able to produce a high rate in playoff is another.
You may win a couple of rings by playing Bron-ball or Harden-ball, but team ball wins most of the time.
Also, Harden doesn't have much success in the playoff at all.

But good coaches always adjust according to strengths. Shaq took more shots than Kobe when he was a peak form.
Who do you think took more shots between Steph and Klay.
How about Allen and Pierce?:confusedshrug: But ok I get it, usually you pair up a high scoring player with a role player or a player that can mesh with your superstar. The problem some of us are up in arms with a non traditional system even if their team's ORTG is very high.
Nash with his perpetual dribbling, Harden's perimeter iso's, Grant Hill as the point forward etc etc. I bet you if Jokic wins a couple of rings, some fans will groan oh, he's not supposed to stay in the perimeter....

tamaraw08

02-15-2019, 02:03 PM

The Heatles peaked at #62 all-time in offensive efficiency and the recent Cavs at #26 and 46

that's a pathetic underachievement of lebron-ball compared to the best non-wilt offensive players ever - magic/curry/mj (the goat passer, shooter and scorer) - they had the top 3 offenses ever, while lebron's 2-PG approach with lebron-ball (turning the forward position into a 2nd pg) peaked at 26, 46 and 62 all-time.. :facepalm

A career of curry/mj/magic having better offenses than lebron-ball shows that their offenses were better, thereby increasing their odds of winning

Ultimately, Lebron-ball rarely applied enough pressure or wore down their Finals opponents more than they themselves were getting worn down by the opponent's superior methodology (ball movement).. lebron-ball struggled to have the upper hand and control the game flow 6 of 9 times on the championship level
So freaking what, explain to me again why Lebron's finals teams have a higher ORTG than MJ's teams?:facepalm but but but, GSW with Klay, Green, Iggy, KD etc etc played bad defense, puhleezzzz, .:facepalm Warriors were always good on defense, held Harden to a miserable FG% WCF. 2nd best 2 yrs ago, 6th best 3 years ago until they coasted though out the season last year.

3ball

02-15-2019, 02:05 PM

tpols

02-15-2019, 02:26 PM

to be fair OP didnt even know the difference between usage and TOP.

3balls explanations on this topic are absolutely spot on.

3ball

02-15-2019, 02:55 PM

So freaking what, explain to me again why Lebron's finals teams have a higher ORTG than MJ's teams?:facepalm

Jordan's bulls had the #2, 6, 12, and 16 ortg's of all-time

Lebron-ball had the #26, 46, and 62 ortg's

So jordan's #2 offense would stand a much better chance against curry's #1 offense than lebron's #26 or 46 offenses did...

especially since defensively, MJ wouldn't let his man go off, let alone be the ONLY GUY on his team to do so

but but but, GSW with Klay, Green, Iggy, KD etc etc played bad defense, puhleezzzz, .:facepalm Warriors were always good on defense. 2nd best 2 yrs ago, 6th best 3 years ago until they coasted though out the season last year.

The warriors drtg in the 17' Finals was 116 - no opponent of MJ played that weak defensively.. but those Warriors had the #1 all-time offense and could afford to simply outscore an opponent that wasn't a threat to keep up

Lebron-ball's inferior offense is susceptible to losing a no-defense, shootout.. indeed, lebron-ball's biggest disappointments were either:. losing a shootout where both teams scored above their normal ORtg's (09' ecf, 17' Finals), or where lebron-ball underachieved it's regular season ortg (got locked up) - 10' ecsf, 11' Finals, 14' Finals)

And lebron's best showings were defensive lockdown battles, where both teams scored below their regular season ortg's - 06' ecsf, 07' ecf, 08' ecsf, 15' Finals, and 16' Finals..

So lebron-ball isn't an all-time, or dynasty offense, and performs best in defensive battles - it simply lacks the ball movement and spurtability of the best all-time offenses and consequently, has lost shootouts with great casts and 1 seeds
.

Matppak

02-15-2019, 02:55 PM

So freaking what, explain to me again why Lebron's finals teams have a higher ORTG than MJ's teams?:facepalm but but but, GSW with Klay, Green, Iggy, KD etc etc played bad defense, puhleezzzz, .:facepalm Warriors were always good on defense, held Harden to a miserable FG% WCF. 2nd best 2 yrs ago, 6th best 3 years ago until they coasted though out the season last year.

So what your comparing a 2016 team to a 1996 team and your talking about 4ortg better? In 20 years which all the changes to increase scoring and decrease defense 4ortg is all you got? We are talking about using all stats in context including wins and the eye test Lebrons offense hasn't worked compared to other great players. He's dominated the ball so much he hasn't played defense for 5 years and all those team were mediocre or at the bottom of the league in drtg. While Jordan's shaq and Kobe Lakers Magics teams the warriors and so on have had top defenses and offenses while have more team passing not just 1 stat but all combined

NBASTATMAN

02-15-2019, 03:37 PM

Btw, this stat blows up lebron's Finals stats in recent years, since he held the ball for 11-12 minutes, or 30% more than harden is right now - so lebron's recent Finals were the most anyone's ever dominated the ball, by far..

This record ball-domination resulted in massive team assist deficits in his last 4 Finals losses

I dont believe he was ever over 10 in playoffs ...

And the years of 2015 and 2018 he had no other guy to handle the ball.. Check the plus minus when he was off the court.

Dont tell me that they cant play off the ball the minute Lebron is no longer in because Boston did it on a whim in 2017 when Isiah Thomas was hurt..

:facepalm

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

check currys time of poss in 2016, very similar to Bron.. How about 2015 where Curry handled 7.3 minutes to Lebron's 9.5 minutes.. Yet Curry had Draymond and AIguodala to handle the ball .. Lebron had Jr Smith and Shump who were horrible ..

3ball

02-15-2019, 03:49 PM

I dont believe he was ever over 10 in playoffs ...

:facepalm

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

He did in the 15' and 18' Finals:

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2015-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4

In other years he was at 8-10 minutes, which is equal or greater than the regular season leader

This pg-level time gives the team 2 players with a pg-level time of possession.. so the remaining 3 teammates have less time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups, which results in low TEAM assist rankings

it's harder to win with low ball movement and low assist teams, especially in the championship round, so 3/9 happens (1/9 without ray and kyrie shots)

NBASTATMAN

02-15-2019, 03:56 PM

He did in the 15' and 18' Finals:

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2015-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4

In other years he was at 8-10 minutes, which is equal or greater than the regular season leader

This ridiculous time with the ball gives the remaining 3 teammates less time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups, which results in low TEAM assist rankings

it's harder to win with low ball movement and low assist teams, especially in the championship round, so 3/9 happens (1/9 without ray and kyrie shots)

His results have been fine with his type of play.. The only time you can say his style of play didn't meet expectations were in 2011.

Let me know who should have handled the ball in 2015 NBA FINALS.. You do realize that Kyrie was injured and so was Love..

In 2018 Lebron had Hill who is a nice player but usually plays off the ball. Who should handle the ball when your SG cant dribble the ball up the damn court to save his life? Dude isnt even playing in the NBA anymore..

As for harder to win with low ball movement, I agree on that point. But you have to have a coach and the players with the skills to be able to play this type of game.. Only Kyrie was a player you can rely on to make good plays when Bron didnt have the ball.. Jr couldnt even get the ball over half court.

I will also agree that Lebron is better with the ball in his hands.. Only MJ could play GOAT offense off the ball and now CUrry..

3ball

02-15-2019, 05:07 PM

As for harder to win with low ball movement, I agree on that point. But you need a coach and the players with the skills to be able to play this type of game.. Only Kyrie was a player you can rely on to make good plays when Bron didnt have the ball.. Jr couldnt even get the ball over half court.

Lebron isn't coachable

He rejected coaching from everyone, including Walton (https://sports.yahoo.com/lebron-james-reportedly-ignoring-luke-waltons-play-calls-nobodys-surprise-210514450.html), Lue (http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/lebron-james-attitude-listen-to-tyronne-lue-cavs-heat-david-blatt/hjmyp8w984gi1xkzex534zc19), Blatt (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/12/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-david-blatt-rift), and Spolestra (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-miami-heat-news-0402-20150401-story.html)

He always ran lebron-ball instead of getting coached, so the next Phil Jackson wasn't allowed

Let me know who should have handled the ball in 2015 NBA FINALS.. You do realize that Kyrie was injured and so was Love..

Delly, Shump and Lebron can take turns bringing it up, but no one has to "handle the ball" - role players get BETTER shots from ball movement than they do from one guy dominating the ball in the halfcourt

ball-dominance will never be an adequate substitute for ball movement

This idea that basketball is only played with one guy making the plays is wrong - don't you see how the Spurs, Warriors, 11' Mavs and other teams historically moved the ball?.. Parry Mills, Boris Diaw and Danny Green are pros and can move the ball - but they accept the coach's direction to do so, unlike lebron..again, ball-dominance will never be an adequate substitute for ball movement

His results have been fine with his type of play.. The only time you can say his style of play didn't meet expectations were in 2011.

We have no idea how much better lebron's teams would've been if they played a high ball movement and high assist style like the Spurs or Warriors

You say the 17' Cavs were expected to lose but that's because they only won 51 games and looked shitty with a plodding, low team-assist offense like lebron-ball.. so they couldn't have great ball movement and 60-win favorites like kawhi and curry did that year.. Unfortunately, it's hard to have a favorite with lebron-ball, regardless of cast and record payroll.. only in 11 and 13 did lebron field a Finals favorite

You do realize that the only common thread in lebron's last 4 Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists, right?.. so we have no idea how much better lebron's teams would be if the assists and ball movement was equal..

I will also agree that Lebron is better with the ball in his hands..

Only MJ could play GOAT offense off the ball and now CUrry.

.
That's why MJ is goat - his more well-rounded on-ball and off ability allowed chemistry with more player types (ball-handlers), and allowed MJ to be coached (a system) - the lesser ball-dominance allowed better ball movement, and therefore teams that competed better on the championship level

This is the real reason MJ was better and fielded better teams; his superior clutch ability just takes him to another level on top the great teams his versatile on/off-ball ability allowed

To be the goat scorer WITHOUT dominating the ball (allowing goat teamwork/winning) is why he's goat..

NBASTATMAN

02-15-2019, 05:27 PM

Lebron isn't coachable

He rejected coaching from everyone, including Walton (https://sports.yahoo.com/lebron-james-reportedly-ignoring-luke-waltons-play-calls-nobodys-surprise-210514450.html), Lue (http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/lebron-james-attitude-listen-to-tyronne-lue-cavs-heat-david-blatt/hjmyp8w984gi1xkzex534zc19), Blatt (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/12/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-david-blatt-rift), and Spolestra (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-miami-heat-news-0402-20150401-story.html)

He always ran lebron-ball instead of getting coached, so the next Phil Jackson wasn't allowed

Delly, Shump and Lebron can take turns bringing it up, but no one has to "handle the ball" - role players get BETTER shots from ball movement than they do from one guy dominating the ball in the halfcourt

ball-dominance will never be an adequate substitute for ball movement

This idea that basketball is only played with one guy making the plays is wrong - don't you see how the Spurs, Warriors, 11' Mavs and other teams historically moved the ball?.. Parry Mills, Boris Diaw and Danny Green are pros and can move the ball - but they accept the coach's direction to do so, unlike lebron..again, ball-dominance will never be an adequate substitute for ball movement

We have no idea how much better lebron's teams would've been if they played a high ball movement and high assist style like the Spurs or Warriors

You say the 17' Cavs were expected to lose but that's because they only won 51 games and looked shitty with a plodding, low team-assist offense like lebron-ball.. so they couldn't have great ball movement and 60-win favorites like kawhi and curry did that year.. Unfortunately, it's hard to have a favorite with lebron-ball, regardless of cast and record payroll.. only in 11 and 13 did lebron field a Finals favorite

You do realize that the only common thread in lebron's last 4 Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists, right?.. so we have no idea how much better lebron's teams would be if the assists and ball movement was equal..

That's why MJ is goat - his more well-rounded on-ball and off ability allowed chemistry with more player types (ball-handlers), and allowed MJ to be coached (a system) - the lesser ball-dominance allowed better ball movement, and therefore teams that competed better on the championship level

This is the real reason MJ was better and fielded better teams; his superior clutch ability just takes him to another level on top the great teams his versatile on/off-ball ability allowed

To be the goat scorer WITHOUT dominating the ball (allowing goat teamwork/winning) is why he's goat
.

Magic used a very similar approach to the game as Lebron ..He won plenty of titles. Consider that his teams also had a guy that they could just dump the ball to so the team got more assists. Harden has as well and wins a title last season if CP3 doesn't go down.

At the end of the day when Lebron has left his ex teams have stunk.. Why haven't they changed their style of play?

Playing off the ball only works if you have players that can play that style at a high level. You have to have high IQ players. You have to have players that can make good decisions when they get the ball.. Plenty of teams have used the TRIANGLE AND FAILED..

Kyrie is a great scorer but he has to have the ball in his hands to play well.. Curry is the opposite.. Lebron played with Kyrie and made it work.. They won 1 title in 2 tries.. If GSW doesn't get KD its most likely 2 out of 2..

Lebron played 3 years with Wade IN HIS PRIME and 2 years with Kyrie and has 3 titles..

Pretty good imo.. He got to the finals with scrubs and lost to much better teams in 07,15 ,17, 18.. He screwed up in 2011 and Wade was done in 2014..

tpols

02-15-2019, 05:55 PM

NBASTATMAN

02-15-2019, 11:22 PM

Magic's Lakers were perennially ranked 1st, 2nd in team assists throughout their tenure.

While Lebrons are often outside the top 10 and sometimes embarrasingly so.

you just have to accept it... magic didnt play SF and was actually a much better passer..and created dynasties.

Not in 1991 they werent.. And yes ,, Magic was a better passer than Lebron.

Magic played with a top 2 player all time.. The top scorer all time.. Easier when you can dump the ball down low..

People act like Lebron's teams have the lowest assists in the league . Kyrie joined the Celtics last season and they went from top 5 in assists to 20th.. What happened? I guess Kyrie is a ball hog as well..

Its a new age and if you dont have a Curry to play GOAT level offense off the ball you arent winning with that style.. At the end of the day Lebron won 3 titles..

He won 2 titles with Wade in 3 years Wade was still at a high level.
He won 1 title in 2 years with Kyrie .. It would have been two titles if GSW didnt go after KD ,a year after they won 73 games..

So he has played with a great player for 5 years in their primes and won 3 titles..

3ball

02-16-2019, 02:10 PM

Playing off the ball only works if you have players that can play that style at a high level.

Exactly - lebron doesn't have the skill (off-ball) to play in a system like the triangle, or the spurs' and warriors system.

Lebron's skill restriction to ball-domination prevents the ball movement of these dynasties, so his teams can never be as good.. this is a major knock on him versus bird, MJ, Duncan, Kobe

You have to have high IQ players. You have to have players that can make good decisions when they get the ball.. Plenty of teams have used the TRIANGLE AND FAILED..

ur right - the triangle's championship potential couldn't be realized or win rings without top 10 wings that could play sufficiently off-ball.. Indeed, Phil was a nobody, 1st time coach when MJ got him in 90'... He wasn't some all-time coach, and if MJ rejected his coaching/triangle like Lebron rejected Walton (https://sports.yahoo.com/lebron-james-reportedly-ignoring-luke-waltons-play-calls-nobodys-surprise-210514450.html), Lue (http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/lebron-james-attitude-listen-to-tyronne-lue-cavs-heat-david-blatt/hjmyp8w984gi1xkzex534zc19), Blatt (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/12/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-david-blatt-rift), and Spolestra (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-miami-heat-news-0402-20150401-story.html), then Phil would've gone by the wayside like they did

Lebron never accepted coaching and always ran lebron-ball instead - so the next Phil Jackson wasn't allowed

Lebron had 7 coaches in his career - that's enough to find a system you can ride with.. but lebron is just a basic, ball-dominator, not a genius, so he can't do shit with coaching - getting coached would require skills other than the easy, playground ball-domination he's played his whole life.

Pretty good imo.. He got to the finals with scrubs in 07' and 18'

All these guys came out of the East with weak casts - iverson, dwight, kidd twice, lebron twice..

So if guys come out of the East with weak casts, then lebron's Finals streak is negated by having a strong cast (super-team) from 11-17'.. :confusedshrug:

I'm sure Dwight, Iverson and Kidd would make the Finals a lot more with super-teams like 11-17' lebron, considering they already did it with weak casts.. it's just a weak ass conference where Boston nearly made it in 18' without their 2 best players.. :facepalm ..

and lost to much better teams in 07,15 ,17, 18.. He screwed up in 2011 and Wade was done in 2014

32-year old D Wade 2014 ECF:. 19.8 on 54.5%
33-year old Pippen r1998 ECF:. 16.6 on 39.2%

So Wade was better off than crippled Pippen heading into the Finals

Kyrie is a great scorer but he has to have the ball in his hands to play well.. Curry is the opposite.. Lebron played with Kyrie and made it work.. They won 1 title in 2 tries.. If GSW doesn't get KD its most likely 2 out of 2..

Exactly - lebron's ball-dominance (and lack of off-ball) clashes with other ball-dominators like kyrie, so he needs extra talent (big 3) to overcome the redundant ball-movement - the lesser ball-movement ultimately struggles on the championship level, 3/9

Btw... Lebron has never had less than a 4 seed in the playoffs.. So only MJ led a low seed (6) deep into the playoffs and 6 games with the champs, whereas lebron's 2 and 4 seeds got swept by the champs in 07' and 18' ...

And ultimately, we can't compare lebron's 1-4 seeds to mj's low seeds, but we do know that mj's 1-4 seeds vastly outperformed lebron's.. lebron lost 6 times as a 1 or 2 seed, while MJ is the only top 10 player that was undefeated with 1 or 2 seeds.. so we can argue all day about whose cast and losses ate justified, but only MJ was undefeated when he had a squad (the most unbeatable player, aka goat).

At the end of the day when Lebron has left his ex teams have stunk.. Why haven't they changed their style of play?

Because his style causes that

teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron)

teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

MJ's bulls would've won less and would've cratered without him if he played that ball-dominator style like lebron..

Essentially, if a team is horrible without their best player, then they aren't a great team.. Lebron doesn't produce great teams; MJ and other ball movement guys do.. It's that simple

Magic used a very similar approach to the game as Lebron

Magic started at PG.. so he was the only guy with a PG time of possession (the only ball-dominator).

otoh, lebron starts at forward with his pg-style, so he becomes a 2nd guy with PG time of possession, along with the actual PG (rondo, kyrie, chalmers).. these 2-point guard teams (2 guys with high time of possession) leave less time and assist opportunity for the other 3 teammates compared to their play in 1-pg lineups, resulting in low TEAM assist rankings..

hence all the 2-pg teams having low assist rankings (lebron/rondo, harden/cp3, doncic/dsj, r jackson/blake), while 1-pg teams like magic and ben simmons have high assist rankings

This is the source of lebron-ball's low ball movement, and subsequent weaker teams/championship record.

Consider that his teams also had a guy that they could just dump the ball to so the team got more assists

That's because Kareem wasn't out there becoming a 2nd point guard alongside magic like lebron does with kyrie and rondo

That's the whole point - the 3 frontcourt positions are typically high-assisted positions (teammates toss the frontcourt players dimes), but lebron plays PG, so he robs teammates of the opportunity to assist one of the frontcourt positions, while also taking ball-time away from them with his 2-pg lineup
.

ArbitraryWater

02-16-2019, 05:30 PM

Curry is a PG, brings the ball down the court more often than Lebron. Lebron gets the ball after crossing half court. That's one way that stat can be misleading.

Wrong.

NBASTATMAN

02-16-2019, 06:30 PM

Because his style causes that

teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron)

teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

MJ's bulls would've won less and would've cratered without him if he played that ball-dominator style like lebron..

Essentially, if a team is horrible without their best player, then they aren't a great team.. Lebron doesn't produce great teams; MJ and other ball movement guys do.. It's that simple

.

BS on the Curry ball movement cuz his team scuks when he is out.. 5-6 without him I believe..

BS on the Lebron leaving so his team falls off cuz aren't his teams stacked.???:confusedshrug:

You expect me to believe his teams are stacked but fall off so much when he leaves.. I guess they arent stacked ... :applause:

In 2014 he left but they acquired Deng an all star forward to take his place. Before Boshs injury they stunk with three all stars.. Yes I will give you that Wade wasnt at his best anymore but he was still putting up 21 and 5 ass.. And Wade's style of play is very similar to Bron's.

AT THE END OF THE DAY HE HAS PLAYED WITH Kyrie for 2 SEASONs and won 1 title .. Would have been two if KD didnt jump on a 73 win team..

He won 2 titles with Wade in three YEARS when Wade was still in his prime..

As for three superstars, MJ had three stars as well.. MJ never faced a team with three stars..

Shaq played with Kobe and Glen Rice for two seasons.. Yes Glen Rice was 2 nd ALL NBA twice right before he landed with the Lakers..

When you look at how much talent Lebron has on his side you have to look at their competition. They went vs KD, West, and Harden.

They went vs Spurs with Kawhi, Duncan, Parker and Manu.. As well as other seasoned players with plenty of playoff experience.

Shaq or Kobe never beat Duncan with a player like Kawhi on his team. Duncan was old but still put it bad on BOSH..

Who was Shaq and Kobe going up against in 2000-2004? Duncan had an old arse team..Drob, Anderson who didnt even play, Antonio Daniels, Ferry etc.. Garbage.. They also beat Webber, Bibby and Peja 1 season with REF HELP.. The Kings would have traded all three of those guys for SHAQ..

In 2009-2010 The Lakers won titles.. Kobe's second best player is HOF while Lebrons could be compared to Chucky Atkins.. What other superstar played with talent like Kobe?

Kobe had Artest, Odom, Bynum, and Gasol... Do you realize 3 out of 4 of those guys made ALL NBA teams in their careers?

Kg was hurt in 09 and in 2010 The LAKERS defeated the Celtics who had about the same level talent as the Lakers.. Obviously KG was no longer the great player he once was and Gasol outplayed him in 2010 after KG out played in 2008..

3ball

02-16-2019, 11:21 PM

Lebron won 2 titles with Wade in three YEARS when Wade was still in his prime

But Wade was better heading into the 14' Finals than 98' Pippen:

32-year old D Wade 2014 ECF:. 19.8 on 54.5%
33-year old Pippen r1998 ECF:. 16.6 on 39.2%

98' pippen was older and wasn't an all-star again, whereas Wade was a 21 ppg all-star in 2014, 2015, and 2016.. ditto bosh..

So Wade and bosh had more left in 2014 than 98' Pippen, and the Spurs' core was older than everyone.. lebron simply failed the goat standard and should've 3-peated like MJ did in 98'..

The record blowout in 14' despite having 3 HOF teammates is the 2nd biggest mark on lebron's career - he failed to 3-peat, while MJ succeeded

AT THE END OF THE DAY HE HAS PLAYED WITH Kyrie for 2 SEASONs and won 1 title ..

Overall, Lebron won 3 titles in 6 years of Wade/Kyrie, but MJ won 6 titles, including 3 where pippen wasn't in prime (91' and 97-98')

So lebron has no excuse if he wants goat status

Would've been 2 rings with kyrie if durant didn't hop on 73-win team

Durant teaming up is fair, because NBA teams had to deal with lebron teaming up with Wade/Bosh/Allen..

and the East had to deal with him teaming up with prime kyrie/love... if guys come out of the East with weak casts 5 times (iverson, dwight, kidd twice, lebron twice), then lebron's Finals streak is negated by having a strong cast (super-team) from 11-17'..

I'm sure Dwight, Iverson and Kidd would make the Finals a lot more with super-teams like 11-17' lebron, considering they already did it with weak casts.. it's just a weak ass conference where lebron stacked the deck - other guys would've had the same success if they had stacked the deck too

MJ never faced a team with three stars..

The 91' Pistons had 3 HOF (Isiah, Dumars, Rodman) and 3x all-stars at all 5 starting spots

Lebron never beat a team with this much talent, nor did he beat b2b champs like MJ did that year..

and Isiah/dumars/rodman were 29/27/29 in 1991, while garnett/pierce/allen were 35/34/36 when lebron beat them.. ditto duncan/ginobili/parker in 13'

Also, MJ won 6 rings with only 1 teammate being an all-star alongside him (5 appearances) while lebron only won 3 rings despite 6 all-star teammates (14 appearances).. MJ won with a lot less help than lebron.. it's obvious fact

MJ's team had 3 stars too

Not for the first 3-peat

Only Kobe/MJ won multiple rings with 1 HOF teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe), and hakeem (when MJ was out of the league)

BS on the Curry ball movement cuz his team scuks when he is out.. 5-6 without him I believe..

5-6 is better than 4-23 or 6-12

And over a full season, they'd easily be over .500 with curry

so lebron's team is stacked, but they fall off when he leaves??.. :confusedshrug:

Stacked or not, teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron)

So regardless of cast, MJ's bulls would've won less and cratered without him if he played that ball-dominator style like lebron..

Otoh, teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

Ultimately, if a team is horrible without their best player, then they aren't a great team.. Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't produce great teams; MJ and other ball movement guys do.. It's that simple

They went vs Spurs with Kawhi, Duncan, Parker and Manu.. As well as other seasoned players with plenty of playoff experience

All of MJ's wins except 92' was like beating the equivalent of a Spurs-level team

The Spurs sometimes had higher net efficiency because they faced weaker comp than the stacked 90's west - it was 3-4 spurs teams playing each other, hence them taking turns losing to MJ in the Finals.. So MJ would smash the Spurs.. 3-0 in Lebron's shoes

And look at the 2 times MJ faced Duncan in 98' - dominated him, won without pippen.. sure Duncan was only the most prepared rookie ever
..

Smoke117

02-16-2019, 11:23 PM

But Wade was better heading into the 14' Finals than 98' Pippen:

32-year old D Wade 2014 ECF:. 19.8 on 54.5%
33-year old Pippen r1998 ECF:. 16.6 on 39.2%

98' pippen was older and wasn't an all-star again, whereas Wade was a 21 ppg all-star in 2014, 2015, and 2016.. ditto bosh..

So Wade and bosh had more left in 2014 than 98' Pippen, and the Spurs' core was older than everyone.. lebron simply failed the goat standard and should've 3-peated like MJ did in 98'..

The record blowout in 14' despite having 3 HOF teammates is the 2nd biggest mark on lebron's career - he failed to 3-peat, while MJ succeeded

Overall, Lebron won 3 titles in 6 years of Wade/Kyrie, but MJ won 6 titles, including 3 where pippen wasn't in prime (91' and 97-98')

So lebron has no excuse if he wants goat status

Durant teaming up is fair, because NBA teams had to deal with lebron teaming up with Wade/Bosh/Allen..

and the East had to deal with him teaming up with prime kyrie/love... if guys come out of the East with weak casts 5 times (iverson, dwight, kidd twice, lebron twice), then lebron's Finals streak is negated by having a strong cast (super-team) from 11-17'..

I'm sure Dwight, Iverson and Kidd would make the Finals a lot more with super-teams like 11-17' lebron, considering they already did it with weak casts.. it's just a weak ass conference where lebron stacked the deck - other guys would've had the same success if they had stacked the deck too

The 91' Pistons had 3 HOF (Isiah, Dumars, Rodman) and 3x all-stars at all 5 starting spots

Lebron never beat a team with this much talent, nor did he beat b2b champs like MJ did that year..

and Isiah/dumars/rodman were 29/27/29 in 1991, while garnett/pierce/allen were 35/34/36 when lebron beat them.. ditto duncan/ginobili/parker in 13'

Also, MJ won 6 rings with only 1 teammate being an all-star alongside him (5 appearances) while lebron only won 3 rings despite 6 all-star teammates (14 appearances).. MJ won with a lot less help than lebron.. it's obvious fact

Not for the first 3-peat

Only Kobe/MJ won multiple rings with 1 HOF teammate, except Shaq (who had Kobe), and hakeem (when MJ was out of the league)

5-6 is better than 4-23 or 6-12

And over a full season, they'd easily be over .500 with curry

Stacked or not, teams that rely on ball-dominance fall off without their ball-dominator (harden/lebron)

So regardless of cast, MJ's bulls would've won less and cratered without him if he played that ball-dominator style like lebron..

Otoh, teams that rely on ball movement system simply keep doing that when someone is out (Curry, Duncan and MJ teams)

Ultimately, if a team is horrible without their best player, then they aren't a great team.. Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't produce great teams; MJ and other ball movement guys do.. It's that simple

All of MJ's wins except 92' was like beating the equivalent of a Spurs-level team

The Spurs sometimes had higher net efficiency because they faced weaker comp than the stacked 90's west - it was 3-4 spurs teams playing each other, hence them taking turns losing to MJ in the Finals.. So MJ would smash the Spurs.. 3-0 in Lebron's shoes

And look at the 2 times MJ faced Duncan in 98' - dominated him, won without pippen.. sure Duncan was only the most prepared rookie ever
..

1-9, 6-7. The so called "GOAT". :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

NBASTATMAN

02-16-2019, 11:43 PM

But Wade was better heading into the 14' Finals than 98' Pippen:

If you look at the stats for 1998 Finals you are wrong.. Pip had a MUCH better Gm Score. Wade was just not right in that series. Pip had a 13 game score to 7.9 FOR WAde.. So you are wrong.. I win this .

98' pippen was older and wasn't an all-star again, whereas Wade was a 21 ppg all-star in 2014, 2015, and 2016.. ditto bosh

You should know better, Pip missed like the first half of the season of course he wasnt an All star. Wrong again. I win this one too..

The record blowout in 14' despite having 3 HOF teammates is the 2nd biggest mark on lebron's career - he failed to 3-peat, while MJ succeeded

I ve already proven that Wade was half the player Pippen was in 1998.. Wade was done and they suffered cuz of it..

Overall, Lebron won 3 titles in 6 years of Wade/Kyrie, but MJ won 6 titles, including 3 where pippen wasn't in prime (91' and 97-98')

Scottie Pip played great in 1991 How do you take that year away and not get rid of Wade's in 2014 where his game score was almost half of Pips in 1998.. You lose on this one..

Lebron won 2 titles in 3 years of Wades prime and 1 Title in 2 ears with Kyrie.. Kd doesnt go to a 73 win team and its 2 titles in two years..

Durant joining The Lakers in 1991, Blazers in 1992 and Suns in 1993 makes MJ possibly ringless.. Put him on Utahs team and they beat the Bulls as well.. So I dont agree .. Put Durant on any team the Lakers faced in the west when they won titles and Kobe is ring less as well.. Meanwhile none of those teams won 73 games.

The 91' Pistons had 3 HOF (Isiah, Dumars, Rodman) and 3x all-stars at all 5 starting spots

You do know Thomas was hurt for a good part of that season.. Isiah was done and past his prime.. He never led another team past the first round.. So you are wrong again..

Lebron never beat a team with this much talent, nor did he beat b2b champs like MJ did that year..

I would agree if THOMAS was still in his prime.. But he wasnt and age means nothing .. Thomas ' 91 year was one of his worse and he only played 3 more years and never getting past first round..

Also, MJ won 6 rings with only 1 teammate being an all-star alongside him (5 appearances) while lebron only won 3 rings despite 6 all-star teammates (14 appearances).. MJ won with a lot less help than lebron.. it's obvious fact

Really hard to compare cuz they faced different levels of competition.. After 91 Pistons he didnt play against teams that had a side kick on Pips level.. I would say only Utah and the Sonics had that second guy that was up there.. But they didnt have that third guy like Rodman..

And look at the 2 times MJ faced Duncan in 98' - dominated him, won without pippen.. sure Duncan was only the most prepared rookie ever
.

Dude he did not dominate Duncan.. He won on a last second three point shot and he shot horribly.. I still remember that first game... Wrong again..

I dont remember their second game..

Smoke117

02-16-2019, 11:46 PM

If you look at the stats for 1998 Finals you are wrong.. Pip had a MUCH better Gm Score. Wade was just not right in that series. Pip had a 13 game score to 7.9 FOR WAde.. So you are wrong.. I win this .

You should know better, Pip missed like the first half of the season of course he wasnt an All star. Wrong again. I win this one too..

I ve already proven that Wade was half the player Pippen was in 1998.. Wade was done and they suffered cuz of it..

Scottie Pip played great in 1991 How do you take that year away and not get rid of Wade's in 2014 where his game score was almost half of Pips in 1998.. You lose on this one..

Lebron won 2 titles in 3 years of Wades prime and 1 Title in 2 ears with Kyrie.. Kd doesnt go to a 73 win team and its 2 titles in two years..

Durant joining The Lakers in 1991, Blazers in 1992 and Suns in 1993 makes MJ possibly ringless.. Put him on Utahs team and they beat the Bulls as well.. So I dont agree .. Put Durant on any team the Lakers faced in the west when they won titles and Kobe is ring less as well.. Meanwhile none of those teams won 73 games.

You do know Thomas was hurt for a good part of that season.. Isiah was done and past his prime.. He never led another team past the first round.. So you are wrong again..

I would agree if THOMAS was still in his prime.. But he wasnt and age means nothing .. Thomas ' 91 year was one of his worse and he only played 3 more years and never getting past first round..

Really hard to compare cuz they faced different levels of competition.. After 91 Pistons he didnt play against teams that had a side kick on Pips level.. I would say only Utah and the Sonics had that second guy that was up there.. But they didnt have that third guy like Rodman..

Dude he did not dominate Duncan.. He won on a last second three point shot and he shot horribly.. I still remember that first game... Wrong again..

I dont remember their second game..

The irony of his horseshit when Scottie after 4 games in the 98 finals was the favorite for the FMVP because of the all around series he was having and the absolute DOMINATE defense he was playing. This idiot always throws out 98 finals stats without any context to boost up his deity. Yeah...Pippen's numbers took a hit after he got injured in game 5...no shit, sherlock. He's just pathetic. For all this nonsense he goes on about how he knows the game all he ever brings up is PPGS THIS PPGZ THAT. Never mentions that Scottie was the best defensive player in every one of the series the Bulls played in 98 or anything. I guess defense doesn't matter just how many points you put up. Pippen could be complete shit offensively and he still would have had a huge impact for his defense alone. The stupid fukking obsessive fanboy probably thinks Jordan was the best defensive player in 98 I bet.

His agenda ridden horseshit is just pathetic. Notice how brings up Scottie wasn't an all star 98...no shit, he missed the first half of the season so of course he wasn't an all star. He's just a fukking clown in love with a guy who couldn't give two shits about him.

NBASTATMAN

02-17-2019, 12:19 AM

The irony of his horseshit when Scottie after 4 games in the 98 finals was the favorite for the FMVP because of the all around series he was having and the absolute DOMINATE defense he was playing. This idiot always throws out 98 finals stats without any context to boost up his deity. Yeah...Pippen's numbers took a hit after he got injured in game 5...no shit, sherlock. He's just pathetic. For all this nonsense he goes on about how he knows the game all he ever brings up is PPGS THIS PPGZ THAT. Never mentions that Scottie was the best defensive player in every one of the series the Bulls played in 98 or anything. I guess defense doesn't matter just how many points you put up. Pippen could be complete shit offensively and he still would have had a huge impact for his defense alone. The stupid fukking obsessive fanboy probably thinks Jordan was the best defensive player in 98 I bet.

His agenda ridden horseshit is just pathetic. Notice how brings up Scottie wasn't an all star 98...no shit, he missed the first half of the season so of course he wasn't an all star. He's just a fukking clown in love with a guy who couldn't give two shits about him.

Yep .. Dude always tries to use bs but gets caught.. :cheers:

3ball

02-17-2019, 12:55 AM

Dude he did not dominate Duncan.. He won on a last second three point shot and he shot horribly.. I still remember that first game... Wrong again..

Lebron choked in the clutch and missed the walk-off attempt - he needed Ray Allen to save him:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/XxRuyC.gif

Jordan MADE his walk-off attempt from the exact same spot in his first meeting against Duncan/Popovich to send the game into overtime:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif

After hitting the walk-off, MJ dominated overtime, including 2 dunks over Duncan:

https://media.giphy.com/media/26tn2Uph26JX7BeHS/giphy.gif

In his 2nd meeting against Duncan, MJ dominated Duncan even more thoroughly:

https://media.giphy.com/media/TbKAH5Pl5N91S/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/cyFnUr.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/VgAj53MW9ee5O/giphy.gif

In MJ's first meeting with Duncan on November 3, 1997, he hit the walk-off shot shown above to send the game into OT.. But it was his high volume (12-39 FG) that allowed the Bulls to control the pace and stay in the game up until that point - specifically, MJ's volume controlled pace and spearheaded the Bulls 26-12 edge on the offensive glass.. The 2nd chances contributed to the Bulls higher offensive rating for the game (85.4 to 81.5).. With MJ's volume keeping the Bulls in the game, the opportunity was there at the end to force overtime and steal the game.

MJ's volume also took defensive attention away from teammates, allowing Kerr, Kukoc, and Longley to have big games.. Sufficient contributions from the supporting cast was necessary since MJ didn't have Scottie for this game (injury) once again (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367910) - which was nothing new - actually, it was Phil Jackson's everyday game plan to have the team 'leave Michael alone' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s) down the stretch of games so he could do everything all by himself.. So this was far from the last time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qeGR96SGzA) MJ would have to carry Pippen.

MJ's high-volume approach was a stark contrast to how Lebron attacks a defense.. Lebron employs a lower-volume approach, which necessitates bigger performances from teammates to keep up with the other team.. But this passive approach doesn't attract sufficient defensive attention away from teammates for these big performances to even be possible - see the 2014 Finals.

The 2014 Finals not only showed how a passive, low-volume approach allows a defense to stay at home on teammates and shut them down, but it demonstrated how unlikely the approach has of succeeding to begin with: In 21 out of the 25 years since 1991, the team leader in shot attempts on the Finals-winning team took more than 25.56% of the team's shots - so the load Lebron undertook in the 2014 Finals (25.56% of his team's shots) was not a large load, and the notion that he couldn't have done more, or that no one else would've done more, is simply wrong - 21 out of the last 25 did more.

I dont remember their second game.

.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQePkBnD0vo

3ball

02-17-2019, 12:55 AM

Durant joining the Lakers in 1991, Blazers in 1992 and Suns in 1993 makes MJ possibly ringless..

Not if MJ had an extra all-star to face those teams like Lebron did the Warriors - you're forgetting that MJ needed 1 less all-star to win all his rings than lebron - he didn't need as much help and would've been unfathomable with another all-star teammate like lebron always had for all his rings

And even without the same help as lebron had, MJ would've still won - teams play to their competition - MJ would've just guarded magic 100% of the possessions in the 91' Finals instead of a 70/30 split with Pippen, while pippen guarded Durant

And the 16' warriors lost a lot of games in the playoffs and for all we know weren't much better than the 07 Mavs or 09' Cavs.. so adding durant doesn't relate much to the 73 wins

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Lebron won 2 titles in 3 years of Wades prime and 1 Title in 2 ears with Kyrie.. Kd doesnt go to a 73 win team and its 2 titles in two years.

MJ won 3 titles in 3 years of pippen's prime (92/93/96).. so undefeated in years he played a full season.. 3/4 overall including the baseball season, which wasn't an upset, like lebron's 11' loss

3/4 in pippen's prime beats lebron's 3/5 in Kyrie/Wade prime

And we haven't considered 3rd options - lebron had 4 prime years of 2 perennial all-stars (bosh/love), while MJ had no all-star 3rd option for any of his rings.. heck, rodman was 36 and wasn't even the starter in the 98' playoffs - he averaged 4/8 in 98' Finals and 4/8 for the entire 97' playoffs.. :eek:

I ve already proven that Wade was half the player Pippen was in 1998.. Wade was done and they suffered cuz of it..

Wade had a 16 game score in the 14' ECF, better than Pippen's 98' ECF or Finals

Lebron-ball was simply the vastly inferior brand that got figured-out and overtaken in the 14' Finals, so teammates will always play poorly when that happens.. lebron didn't play well either when games were being contested.. It's a documented fact that he just padded that series, and had the power to do so as the team's ball-dominator

And Pippen was older and wasn't an all-star after the 98' Finals, whereas Wade was an all-star for 2 years after the 14' Finals.. so pippen was more done than wade
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