Was LeBron in 2017 and 2018 the GOAT Finals? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

SomeBlackDude

02-16-2019, 11:18 PM

1-8 in those 2 series, including the worst loss in finals history. kd wins b2b fmvp on bron's watch.

In fact, the average point differential between the Warriors and the Cavs [in 2018] was the largest in NBA Finals history at 15 points. Coincidentally, the second-highest average margin of victory in the NBA Finals ever was 14 in 2014 when the Spurs trounced LeBron and the Heat during his final season in Miami.

:ohwell:

dazzer87

02-16-2019, 11:22 PM

Another LeGOAT record owns in the finals.......... 1. and 2nd....:roll:

SomeBlackDude

02-16-2019, 11:38 PM

Another LeGOAT record owns in the finals.......... 1. and 2nd....:roll:

best part is the article called it "coincidentally".

only "coincidence" was bron ball, on 2 different squads vs 2 different squads, led to the same result- record losses in the finals.

:yaohappy:

kennethgriffen

02-16-2019, 11:41 PM

https://youtu.be/YzmvikY8VdQ

https://youtu.be/yKjNWFqrAIg

:bowdown:

Bronbron23

02-16-2019, 11:42 PM

2017: 34/12/10 on 54%

2018: 34/9/10 on 53%

Are these the 2 best Finals performances ever??
Come on man. You making Bron fans look bad with this shit. How can they be the best performances ever and he got smoked. All the while his rival is taking it to him winning MVP?

Dray n Klay

02-16-2019, 11:42 PM

https://youtu.be/YzmvikY8VdQ

https://youtu.be/yKjNWFqrAIg

:bowdown:

30 point triple doubles

kennethgriffen

02-16-2019, 11:43 PM

30 point triple doubles

mean nothing if you dont play defense

:roll:

AlternativeAcc.

02-16-2019, 11:44 PM

Damn, LeBron had 7 straight years as the best finals performer. :wtf:

Surely that's never been done?

3ball

02-16-2019, 11:53 PM

2017: 34/12/10 on 54%

2018: 34/9/10 on 53%

Are these the 2 best Finals performances ever??

No because the stats came with the highest time of possession (ball-domination) ever:

Lebron 14' Finals: 6.5 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes
Lebron 15' Finals: 12.2 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes (50% more than RS leader Wall's 8.3 min)
Lebron 17' Finals: 8.2 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes
Lebron 18' Finals: 11.0 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes (harden is at 9.8 min in 19')

resulting in massive deficits in team assists per game:

GSW 2018 Finals: 28.7
CLE. 2018 Finals: 21.0

GSW 2017 Finals: 29.4
CLE. 2017 Finals: 21.4

GSW 2015 Finals: 23.0
CLE. 2015 Finals: 15.8

SAS 2014 Finals: 25.4
MIA 2014 Finals: 15.0

which prevented his talented veteran team from achieving the brand of basketball needed to compete at any meaningful level (they had record defeat), let alone an upset less impressive than the 11' Mavs, 04' pistons, 09' Magic, etc

Furthermore, MJ averaged 41 in 93', so 7 more than Lebron's 17/18', and a bigger burden with 20 more than his 2nd option, while kyrie carried a near-equal load/defensive attention as lebron to in 17'.

kennethgriffen

02-16-2019, 11:57 PM

Damn, LeBron had 7 straight years as the best finals performer. :wtf:

Surely that's never been done?

hey simon... how are the lakers doing

i heard vegas just picked them to miss the playoffs

Dray n Klay

02-16-2019, 11:58 PM

kennethgriffen

02-17-2019, 12:02 AM

How did Jordan win averaging 4 rebounds and 2 assists in 1998 and 6 rebounds and 4 assists in 1996

sorry to break it to you but defense > cherry picking rebounds and forcing assists in a bran ball flawed offensive system that realistically lost 8 out of 9 times

Young X

02-17-2019, 12:02 AM

He wasn't even the best player in either series lol

Smoke117

02-17-2019, 12:06 AM

No, he lost. Wade 2006 >>>>>>>> anything LeBron has ever done in the finals...and...you know...actually took home the championship.

kennethgriffen

02-17-2019, 12:08 AM

2014 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKUCE_5H7Iw

2015 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK9wLWF8TXo

2016 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05hXYtvQEjM

2017 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmvikY8VdQ

2018 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKjNWFqrAIg

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Smoke117

02-17-2019, 12:12 AM

Bronbron23

02-17-2019, 12:12 AM

How did Jordan win averaging 4 rebounds and 2 assists in 1998 and 6 rebounds and 4 assists in 1996
Because mj busted his ass on the defensive end and played elite defence. Not only did he drastically effect the game on the defensive end he lead by example and forced everyone to aspire to do the same. I love how so many people on here just forget all about half of the game:facepalm

SamuraiSWISH

02-17-2019, 12:15 AM

He wasn't even the best player in either series lol
And didn

TheCorporation

02-17-2019, 12:39 AM

How did Jordan win averaging 4 rebounds and 2 assists in 1998 and 6 rebounds and 4 assists in 1996

https://media.giphy.com/media/14ceV8wMLIGO6Q/giphy.gif

kennethgriffen

02-17-2019, 12:44 AM

Amusing irony considering you worship a guy who was a worse and even more overrated defensive player.

number of finals defense exposed videos for kobe = 0

number of finals defense exposed videos for lebron = 6

including this one

2011 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhR-CXagPZI

:roll:

Gileraracer

02-17-2019, 06:39 AM

He got annihilated both years. So that's a no. :lol

Spurs m8

02-17-2019, 07:03 AM

oh look, another 1 star thread by this f@ggot

3ball

02-17-2019, 08:07 AM

No because the stats came with the highest time of possession (ball-domination) ever:

Lebron 14' Finals: 6.5 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes
Lebron 15' Finals: 12.2 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes (50% more than RS leader Wall's 8.3 min)
Lebron 17' Finals: 8.2 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes
Lebron 18' Finals: 11.0 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes (harden is at 9.8 min in 19')

resulting in massive deficits in team assists per game:

GSW 2018 Finals: 28.7
CLE. 2018 Finals: 21.0

GSW 2017 Finals: 29.4
CLE. 2017 Finals: 21.4

GSW 2015 Finals: 23.0
CLE. 2015 Finals: 15.8

SAS 2014 Finals: 25.4
MIA 2014 Finals: 15.0

which prevented his talented veteran team from achieving the brand of basketball needed to compete at any meaningful level (they had record defeat), let alone an upset less impressive than the 11' Mavs, 04' pistons, 09' Magic, etc

Furthermore, MJ averaged 41 in 93', so 7 more than Lebron's 17/18', and a bigger burden with 20 more than his 2nd option, while kyrie carried a near-equal load/defensive attention as lebron in 17'.

How did Jordan win averaging 4 rebounds and 2 assists in 1998 and 6 rebounds and 4 assists in 1996

96' MJ already shut the Finals down with a 3-0 lead - show me where lebron got a 3-0 lead in the Finals

In 1998, MJ had a level of clutch, leadership, teamwork, defense, and scoring burden that lebron never did - show me where lebron locked his man down, showed great leadership and teamwork, scored 38% of his team's points, and single-handedly won the closeout game with goat steal and game-winner?

And in both series, mj's teams had good ball movement and team assists, while lebron's ball-dominance resulted in low ball movement/team assists - see the stats again above (that you ignored and never responded to)..lebron's style is shit on the championship level - if you can't see that from those stats than ur a dumbass and should stop watching
.

tpols

02-17-2019, 08:33 AM

No, he lost. Wade 2006 >>>>>>>> anything LeBron has ever done in the finals...and...you know...actually took home the championship.

shit was rigged, stop it. the man took a record breaking amount of FTs that would make harden blush.

3ball

02-17-2019, 08:50 AM

shit was rigged, stop it. the man took a record breaking amount of FTs that would make harden blush.

Harden would also blush at how much better Wade was than him, despite playing under tougher rules (before the 19' rule changes)

And 06' Wade was a little more assisted in the Finals (less ball-dominant) than 17/18 lebron... Wade's quicker decisions and superior style also shows up in the team assist numbers per game:

MIA 2006 Finals: 16.7
DAL. 2006 Finals: 15.8

GSW 2018 Finals: 28.7
CLE. 2018 Finals: 21.0

GSW 2017 Finals: 29.4
CLE. 2017 Finals: 21.4

GSW 2015 Finals: 23.0
CLE. 2015 Finals: 15.8

SAS 2014 Finals: 25.4
MIA 2014 Finals: 15.0
.

tpols

02-17-2019, 09:02 AM

Harden would also blush at how much better Wade was than him, despite playing under tougher rules (before the 19' rule changes)

And 06' Wade was a little more assisted in the Finals (less ball-dominant) than 17/18 lebron... Wade's quicker decisions and superior style also shows up in the team assist numbers per game:

MIA 2006 Finals: 16.7
DAL. 2006 Finals: 15.8

GSW 2018 Finals: 28.7
CLE. 2018 Finals: 21.0

GSW 2017 Finals: 29.4
CLE. 2017 Finals: 21.4

GSW 2015 Finals: 23.0
CLE. 2015 Finals: 15.8

SAS 2014 Finals: 25.4
MIA 2014 Finals: 15.0
.

According to your own stats it doesnt... 16 team assists per game is poor... pretty much just as poor as lebrons usually are. We know great passing teams tend to average 25 or so, so that doesnt prove much.

Dallas was also an iso team that year with dirk and josh howard... they had a 29th team assist rank, so wade didnt need great teamwork to beat them, when his opposition themselves didnt have it.

Of course in 2011 Dallas had the 2nd team assist rank in the whole league so wade did need team work to beat them... too bad he didnt have it.

3ball

02-17-2019, 09:11 AM

According to your own stats he doesnt... 16 team assists per game is poor... pretty much just as poor as lebrons usually are. We know great passing teams tend to average 25 or so so that doesnt prove much.

Dallas was also an iso team that year with dirk and josh howard... they had a 29th team assist rank, so wade didnt need great teamwork to beat them, when they themselves didnt have it.

Of course in 2011 Dallas had the 2nd assist rank in the whole league so wade did need team work to beat them... too bad he didnt have it.
Relative to their opponent (which is what determines victory in a given series), Miami passed much better than lebron's teams, which got destroyed passing-wise by their opponent. Wade's team won in part because they didn't get destroyed passing-wise by their opponent; while lebron did in 17/18

you cant defending lebron's team assist numbers, where his team got massively out-passed in his last 4 Finals.. in 2011, his choke is magnified by dallas' penchant to isolate Dirk over ball movement.. it's harder to win with lower assists, but Dallas did it because of lebron's choke, and lebron occasionally does it because it's bound to happen 1/9 times, and then he got saved with shots/league intervention the other times

tpols

02-17-2019, 09:16 AM

Relative to their opponent (which is what determines victory in a given series), Miami passed much better than lebron's teams

i get that, but its not relative when the '06 mavericks werent a great passing team. they wouldve had low team assists against a lebron led team as well because they were one of the worst passing teams all year, they ran iso ball. wade and lebron are cut from the same exact cloth, neither stimulates great ball movement. you cant brag about 16 apg.

Dray n Klay

02-17-2019, 09:22 AM

Relative to their opponent (which is what determines victory in a given series), Miami passed much better than lebron's teams, which got destroyed passing-wise by their opponent. Wade's team won in part because they didn't get destroyed passing-wise by their opponent; while lebron did in 17/18

you cant defending lebron's team assist numbers, where his team got massively out-passed in his last 4 Finals.. in 2011, his choke is magnified by dallas' penchant to isolate Dirk over ball movement.. it's harder to win with lower assists, but Dallas did it because of lebron's choke, and lebron occasionally does it because it's bound to happen 1/9 times, and then he got saved with shots/league intervention the other times

Why was Jordan

3ball

02-17-2019, 09:36 AM

i get that, but its not relative when the '06 mavericks werent a great passing team. they wouldve had low team assists against a lebron led team as well because they were one of the worst passing teams all year, they ran iso ball. wade and lebron are cut from the same exact cloth.
You said the 06' series was rigged and that's why Wade won

I showed you that the passing gap was more equal compared to lebron's Finals losses, and that partly explains why Wade won and lebron lost

06' Wade would've lost if he got out-passed like lebron does, but he didn't, which helped him win

Whether 17/18 lebron could've won in 06' is irrelevant and would depend on other factors like defense, leadership and clutch as well as the passing.. ultimately, lebron frequently gets out-passed in losses and has this history/reputation/style - nothing will change that empirical fact and weakness in his game..

Btw, Wade's higher assisted rate and less abnormal ball-dominance as a guard (compared to forward) makes him more conducive for ball movement than lebron.. do believe his superior style, leadership, defense and clutch makes him more likely to beat Dirk than lebron, and indeed, it played out that way as 1st options

Dray n Klay

02-17-2019, 09:39 AM

You said the 06' series was rigged and that's why Wade won

I showed you that the passing gap was more equal compared to lebron's Finals losses, and that partly explains why Wade won and lebron lost

06' Wade would've lost if he got out-passed like lebron does, but he didn't, which helped him win

Whether 17/18 lebron could've won in 06' is irrelevant and would depend on other factors like defense, leadership and clutch as well as the passing.. ultimately, lebron frequently gets out-passed in losses and has this history/reputation/style - nothing will change that empirical fact and weakness in his game..

Btw, Wade's higher assisted rate and less abnormal ball-dominance as a guard (compared to forward) makes him more conducive for ball movement than lebron.. do believe his superior style, leadership, defense and clutch makes him more likely to beat Dirk than lebron, and indeed, it played out that way as 1st options

4 rebounds and 2 assists

Manny98

02-17-2019, 09:53 AM

Nothing will ever top this

https://i.postimg.cc/0QgbCFzh/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

3ball

02-17-2019, 10:02 AM

Nothing will ever top this

https://i.postimg.cc/0QgbCFzh/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg
41 ppg (record), and 20 more than 2nd option (record burden)

is >>>>>>

Along with 1991 beating a top 5 player while defending and holding him down (lebron got destroyed by durant in 12')

3ball

02-17-2019, 10:13 AM

4 rebounds and 2 assists
When did lebron single-handedly win a Finals in the last minute?

MJ was just a genuis - his old ass knew he could keep it close by carrying the scoring burden while leading his troops to goat teamwork and defense, so his goat clutch could take over at the end

Lebron isn't clutch enough for that - he has ZERO clutch shots on the championship level - just not good enough

Hey Yo

02-17-2019, 10:27 AM

41 ppg (record), and 20 more than 2nd option (record burden)

is >>>>>>

Along with 1991 beating a top 5 player while defending and holding him down (lebron got destroyed by durant in 12')
Magic got his regular season averages against MJ in the 91 Finals. Can't say the same for Durant in 2012.

Let me know when MJ primarily guarded any scoring champions in the Finals or that avg. 28ppg or more in that same regular season.

kennethgriffen

02-17-2019, 10:37 AM

lebron lost every finals due to a lack of defense, resolve, free throw shooting, heart, cohesiveness, teamwork, leadership, outside contested shooting, shying away from the big moments, strategy, willingness to take the opposing teams best player, worrying more bout his numbers to pass blame

he should be 1 for 9 and was saved by ray allen/kyrie bail outs

he is in reality an elgin baylor type player that should never be considered top 10 all time.

he's being exposed as we speak in a real conference and never would have won a single title without a free ticket to the finals.

bran stans are in overdrive right now because they know their time has come to an end. in fact it came to an end back in 2014. the last time lebron gave even half a thought about playing defense. its half of the game. so lebron is only half of a player

the end

http://pipesmagazine.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/album/12760/alberteinstein-pipe-1.jpg

3ball

02-17-2019, 10:41 AM

Magic got his regular season averages against MJ in the 91 Finals. Can't say the same for Durant in 2012.

Let me know when MJ primarily guarded any scoring champions in the Finals or that avg. 28ppg or more in that same regular season.
MJ guarded the goat passer, so that's pretty good.. and the 2nd best passer (Stockton)

And Magic shot like crap, while Durant shot 55% lights out

I would invite you to look up the stats of guys MJ guarded in the playoffs - nearly all were shut down and shot poorly - Miller, Drexler, Magic, Isiah, Hornacek, Starks, Majerle - you name it - they're all-stars and they shot like crap with MJ on them like white on rice

Lebron has no such track record - quite the opposite, actually

Hey Yo

02-17-2019, 10:49 AM

MJ guarded the goat passer, so that's pretty good.. and the 2nd best passer (Stockton)

Magic like crap tho

Durant shot 55% lights out

I would invite you to look up the stats of guys MJ guarded in the playoffs - nearly all were shut down and shot poorly - Miller, Drexler, Magic, Isiah, Hornacek, Starks, Majerle - you name it - they're all-stars and they shot like crap with MJ on them like white on rice

Lebron has no such track record - quite the opposite, actually
He guarded the goat passer.....:roll: who gives a shit about guarding a passer. You always harp about players scoring and getting their season avg against LeBron in the Postseason. Well.... that's exactly what past prime Magic did against prime MJ. Now it doesn't matter? GTFO

Like I said, show me where MJ guarded a scoring champion in the Finals or anyone who avg. 28ppg+ the same year like LeBron has had to multiple times.

3ball

02-17-2019, 11:31 AM

He guarded the goat passer.....:roll: who gives a shit about guarding a passer. You always harp about players scoring and getting their season avg against LeBron in the Postseason. Well.... that's exactly what past prime Magic did against prime MJ. Now it doesn't matter? GTFO

Like I said, show me where MJ guarded a scoring champion in the Finals or anyone who avg. 28ppg+ the same year like LeBron has had to multiple times.
Again, magic shot poorly, while Durant was lights out

And Drexler was averaging 33.5 points per 100 possessions in 92', compared to Durant's 35.3 in 2017

That's the closest I could find, so lebron faces the tougher scorer, but magic is still tougher to guard overall, while being the better player than durant

lebron simply never guarded a player as good as Magic

And yet Jordan held him to poor shooting, while durant was lights out

Btw, 93' Dominique was a more prolific scorer than 17' Durant, and MJ swept him and Augmon in the 93' playoffs.. I'm sure mj guarded nique' some, although pippen probably guarded him the most

tpols

02-17-2019, 11:44 AM

He guarded the goat passer.....:roll: who gives a shit about guarding a passer

who gives a shit about guarding magic johnson?

chico :biggums:

magic was certainly better than '15 iggy and '14 kawhi by a mile and bran let them win FMVPs on his back.

Hey Yo

02-17-2019, 03:03 PM

Again, magic shot poorly, while Durant was lights out

And Drexler was averaging 33.5 points per 100 possessions in 92', compared to Durant's 35.3 in 2017
LOL @ using per 100 possessions. I thought we were using 2012 Durant as the example?? I guess you needed to change the year considering he avg. 37 points per 100, huh?? :oldlol:

That's the closest I could find, so lebron faces the tougher scorer, but magic is still tougher to guard overall, while being the better player than durant

lebron simply never guarded a player as good as Magic

2012, 2017 and 2018 KD not as good as 1991 Magic???
:roll: :roll: :roll:

And yet Jordan held him to poor shooting, while durant was lights out
Magic avg. that Finals the same as he did in the reg. season. Durant did not.
That's your criteria for LeBron's opponents and who he guards.

Case closed. Take the L and move on.

Hey Yo

02-17-2019, 03:05 PM

who gives a shit about guarding magic johnson?

chico :biggums:

magic was certainly better than '15 iggy and '14 kawhi by a mile and bran let them win FMVPs on his back.
Weak trolling, Jethro

TheCorporation

02-17-2019, 03:08 PM

Nothing will ever top this

https://i.postimg.cc/0QgbCFzh/8bd81a50eb70b4f479f5a77d891c133d.jpg

Literally impossible.

Believe it or not this is even more impressive than taking down

-10 ppg Hornacek
-12 ppg Stockton
-Terry Porter
-Shooting guard ECF battles with John Starks
-Or even taking down 6'2.5 Payton

3ball

02-17-2019, 03:22 PM

2012, 2017 and 2018 KD not as good as 1991 Magic???
:roll: :roll: :roll:

.
MVP voting:

91' Magic:. 2
12/17/18 Durant:. 2, 7, 9

12' Durant was a young pup, not a peaking 5-time champion, yet both MVP runner-ups got trounced similarly

Except lebron had an extra HOF teammate of course

Hey Yo

02-17-2019, 03:35 PM

MVP voting:

91' Magic:. 2
12/17/18 Durant:. 2, 7, 9

12' Durant was a young pup, not a peaking 5-time champion, yet both MVP runner-ups got trounced similarly

Except lebron had an extra HOF teammate of course
The league overall in 12/17/18 >>>>>>> 1991. Many more quality MVP candidates.

12' Durant was first team All-NBA and led the league in scoring for the 3rd consecutive year)

Magic never led the league in scoring and sure as hell wasn't peaking at that time. He was past his prime in 1991.

3ball

02-17-2019, 03:37 PM

The league overall in 12/17/18 >>>>>>> 1991. Many more quality MVP candidates.

12' Durant was first team All-NBA and led the league in scoring for the 3rd consecutive year)

Magic never led the league in scoring and sure as hell wasn't peaking at that time. He was past his prime in 1991.
Magic was a 5-time champ and runner-up to MJ for best player

>>>

no-champ, pre-collusion Durant.. cuddling his cabbage patch

Hey Yo

02-17-2019, 03:51 PM

Magic was a 5-time champ and runner-up to MJ for best player

>>>

no-champ, pre-collusion Durant.. cuddling his cabbage patch
The whole premise was about who was tougher to guard and who got the regular season avg..... the exactly same factors you use.

Give players a choice of who to guard..... 1991 Magic or 2012, 17 or 18 KD. Guarantee Magic gets chosen every time.

Non prime Magic got his reg. season averages against prime MJ that Finals while 2012 KD did not against LeBron.

3ball

02-17-2019, 04:26 PM

The whole premise was about who was tougher to guard and who got the regular season avg..... the exactly same factors you use.

Give players a choice of who to guard..... 1991 Magic or 2012, 17 or 18 KD. Guarantee Magic gets chosen every time.

Non prime Magic got his reg. season averages against prime MJ that Finals while 2012 KD did not against LeBron.
Ur crazy - Magic was ranked much higher all-time and recognized as a goat offensive player

Yet MJ held Magic to his ppg and apg averages on poor shooting, while lebron let durant get way above his averages (up to 10 ppg more), on great shooting

So with the comp argument smashed, it's just ring count

And if you want to bring up Finals teams, that's dumb.. lebron had an extra all-star for all his rings compared to MJ/Kobe... Give MJ and Kobe's dynasties an extra all-star and they'd be unfathomable and unbeatable.. ... Lebron is simply inferior for generating a losing championship record despite 2 all-star teammates.. ..

Too bad his skill restriction to ball-domination limits his team to low ball movement and assists, which can't compete well on the championship level and ceded the best teamwork, offenses and teams to others (Curry, Duncan, Dirk)
.

Dray n Klay

02-17-2019, 04:51 PM

3ball

02-17-2019, 04:59 PM

So we can conclude:

Jordan never scored as efficiently as LeBron did in 2017 and 2018

Jordan never got the rebounds LeBron did in 2017 and 2018

Jordan only got the assists LeBron did in 2017 and 2018 once (1991)

Jordan never faced the defenders LeBron did in 2017 and 2018
- Lebron is a turnover machine, which makes him a less efficient scorer per possession than MJ.. Indeed, MJ scores 5 more ppg on better efficiency per possession.. imagine how much better lebron would be at 5 more ppg with better efficiency.. :eek:

- Who cares about rebounds and assists when MJ is playing great defense, while scoring more than anyone ever has with better teamwork than anyone ever had... and clutch!??!.. :yaohappy:

- Finally, Payton/Rodman/Dumars/Mckey matches lebron's perimeter defenders, while lebron can't hold a candle to the rim protectors that MJ defeated (mutombo, zo, ewing, shaq)

SamuraiSWISH

02-17-2019, 05:09 PM

Ur crazy - Magic was ranked much higher all-time and recognized as a goat offensive player

Yet MJ held Magic to his ppg and apg averages on poor shooting, while lebron let durant get way above his averages (up to 10 ppg more), on great shooting

So with the comp argument smashed, it's just ring count

And if you want to bring up Finals teams, that's dumb.. lebron had an extra all-star for all his rings compared to MJ/Kobe... Give MJ and Kobe's dynasties an extra all-star and they'd be unfathomable and unbeatable.. ... Lebron is simply inferior for generating a losing championship record despite 2 all-star teammates.. ..

Too bad his skill restriction to ball-domination limits his team to low ball movement and assists, which can't compete well on the championship level and ceded the best teamwork, offenses and teams to others (Curry, Duncan, Dirk)
.
:eek: :applause:

Dray n Klay

02-17-2019, 05:30 PM

- Lebron is a turnover machine, which makes him a less efficient scorer per possession than MJ.. Indeed, MJ scores 5 more ppg on better efficiency per possession.. imagine how much better lebron would be at 5 more ppg with better efficiency.. :eek:

- Who cares about rebounds and assists when MJ is playing great defense, while scoring more than anyone ever has with better teamwork than anyone ever had... and clutch!??!.. :yaohappy:

- Finally, Payton/Rodman/Dumars/Mckey matches lebron's perimeter defenders, while lebron can't hold a candle to the rim protectors that MJ defeated (mutombo, zo, ewing, shaq)

We

3ball

02-17-2019, 05:49 PM

We’re talking about Finals defenders buddy

Why’d you bring up Rodman? :roll:

Jeff Hornachek isn’t exactly on par as a defender compared to lebrons opponents :roll:
Who else was a scoring threat on the bulls?

Only MJ

The only time lebron faced that level of defensive attention against a real Finals team was the 07' Finals and 08' ecsf, where he averaged 24 on 35%

Yet MJ was getting 34 on 43%, and staged the goat heist on the road to win it

And I'd say hornacek and weak spacing is tougher than Iggy and island spacing with hands-off D... We hear commentators lament all the time about bad spacing crippling offensive possessions, but that was the standard back then.. Of course, MJ was facing Russell/Anderson a lot more than hornacek, so it's moot anyway.

And prime drexler, majerle > iggy defensively for most of those Finals.. Iggy's been done for a while, and often hurt.. Payton > Kawhi... Durant is a similar athlete to Richard Dumas, possibly Cliff Robinson or Kersey also.. and then there's the 1-man show defensive attention, lack of spacing, and hands-off defense.. no comparison
.

AlternativeAcc.

02-17-2019, 05:51 PM

Who else was a scoring threat on the bulls?

Only MJ

The only time lebron faced that level of defensive attention against a veteran Finals team was the 07' Finals and 08' ecsf, where he averaged 24 on 35%

Yet MJ was getting 34 on 43%, and staged the goat heist on the road to win it

And I'd say hornacek and weak spacing is tougher than Iggy and island spacing with hands-off D... We hear commentators lament all the time about bad spacing crippling offensive possessions, but that was the standard back then.. Of course, MJ was facing Russell/Anderson a lot more than hornacek, so it's moot anyway.

And prime drexler, majerle > iggy defensively for most of the Finals.. Iggy's been done for a while, and often hurt.. Payton > Kawhi... Durant is a similar athlete to Richard Dumas, possibly Cliff Robinson or Kersey also.. and the there's the 1-man show defensive attention, lack of spacing, and hands-off defense.. no comparison
:roll:

Celtics 1825

02-17-2019, 05:54 PM

No, because guess what his record was in those finals...

1-9

3ball

02-17-2019, 05:57 PM

:roll:
Defensively, 96' Payton was as good as Kawhi ever was at guarding guys.

That's not outrageous and probably the consensus

And prime drexler, majerle > iggy defensively for most of those Finals.. Iggy's been done for a while, and often hurt.. Durant is a similar athlete to Richard Dumas, possibly Cliff Robinson or Kersey also.. and then there's the 1-man show defensive attention, lack of spacing, and hands-off defense.. no comparison

Who else was a scoring threat on the bulls?

Only MJ

The only time lebron faced that level of defensive attention against a real Finals team was the 07' Finals and 08' ecsf, where he averaged 24 on 35%

Yet MJ was getting 34 on 43%, and staged the goat heist on the road to win it

And I'd say hornacek and weak spacing is tougher than Iggy and island spacing with hands-off D... We hear commentators lament all the time about bad spacing crippling offensive possessions, but that was the standard back then.. Of course, MJ was facing Russell/Anderson a lot more than hornacek, so it's moot anyway.

Smoke117

02-17-2019, 05:59 PM

Defensively, 96' Payton was as good as Kawhi ever was at guarding guys.

That's not outrageous and probably the consensus

And prime drexler, majerle > iggy defensively for most of thosw Finals.. Iggy's been done for a while, and often hurt.. Durant is a similar athlete to Richard Dumas, possibly Cliff Robinson or Kersey also.. and then there's the 1-man show defensive attention, lack of spacing, and hands-off defense.. no comparison

Who else was a scoring threat on the bulls?

Only MJ

The only time lebron faced that level of defensive attention against a veteran Finals team was the 07' Finals and 08' ecsf, where he averaged 24 on 35%

Yet MJ was getting 34 on 43%, and staged the goat heist on the road to win it

And I'd say hornacek and weak spacing is tougher than Iggy and island spacing with hands-off D... We hear commentators lament all the time about bad spacing crippling offensive possessions, but that was the standard back then.. Of course, MJ was facing Russell/Anderson a lot more than hornacek, so it's moot anyway.

lol Payton never had close to the impact a peak defensive Kawhi did. He was a great one on one defensive player, but his help and team defense was mediocre. This is why Jason Kidd is a better defensive player overall. Payton winning the DPOY was one of the biggest jokes. He wasn't even a top 25 defensive player in the league by impact. David Robinson should have been DPOY that season and the next 9 guys after would have been centers, too. (except for maybe Scottie)

3ball

02-17-2019, 06:10 PM

lol Payton never had close to the impact a peak defensive Kawhi did. He was a great one on one defensive player, but his help and team defense was mediocre. This is why Jason Kidd is a better defensive player overall. Payton winning the DPOY was one of the biggest jokes. He wasn't even a top 25 defensive player in the league by impact. David Robinson should have been DPOY that season and the next 9 guys after would have been centers, too. (except for maybe Scottie)
That's all we're talking about here, as I mentioned

And the old/injured Iggy is no better than prime drexler or majerle, while durant's athleticism compares to Dumas, Cliff Robinson or Kersey.. so MJ faced comparable wing resistance, while facing FAR greater resistance in the paint/at the rim.. :confusedshrug:

But most importantly - MJ faced the kind of 1-man-show defensive attention that early Cleveland-lebron faced..... except it was for his entire bulls career - the bulls were always a 1-man show on offense, which is why MJ won his Finals by scoring 10-20 ppg more than his 2nd option, compared to 3-6 ppg for lebron's wins.. only MJ led his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career, and he did so by a margin of 15.4 ppg over his 2nd option

No comparison

tpols

02-17-2019, 07:06 PM

:roll:

Why is that funny? Prime Gary Payton was absolutely better than '14 kawhi who averaged like 12 ppg all year.

Wtf... lol

Matppak

02-17-2019, 07:44 PM

Literally impossible.

Believe it or not this is even more impressive than taking down

-10 ppg Hornacek
-12 ppg Stockton
-Terry Porter
-Shooting guard ECF battles with John Starks
-Or even taking down 6'2.5 Payton

You keep reusing these trash arguements and you want people to take you seriously. You brush off Gary Payton like he's not a top 3 defender all time and keep saying he's 6ft 2. He is 6ft 4 and has a 6ft 8in wingspan. I wouldn't do much talking either when Lebron has had a mismatch on Curry Lebron couldn't score on a 6ft 3 190lb curry hass been known for bad defense. You're trying to talk shit when your boy passes the ball with curry on him... curry...

SamuraiSWISH

02-17-2019, 08:41 PM

Why is that funny? Prime Gary Payton was absolutely better than '14 kawhi who averaged like 12 ppg all year.

Wtf... lol
Payton is a better on ball defender than Leonard.

K’s size and length allows him to be more versatile but he can’t guard quick smaller scoring guards super well. Kyrie torched him just a couple weeks ago.

And idk what he’s laughing at, you could argue prime / peak GP is a better offensive player than Leonard is now. He was low to mid 20 ppg scorer with much superior distribution.

The recency bias from young ignorant LeBron Stans is alarming especially when they speak with such convictions of things they know nothing about.