If Lebron is built like Karl Malone and a smart player, than why..

[3ball]

Post-up touches, per game:



Lebron - 2.2 touches at 39% shooting

Durant - 6.4 touches at 54%*

C Paul - 2.4 touches at 42%


* champion

https://stats.nba.com/players/tracking-post-ups/?sort=POST_TOUCHES&dir=1


^^^ isn't that a dumb way to play if ur built like Malone?

lebron obviously lacks goat skill (inferior post player to durant and cp3, who don't rank historically as post players)

And no one gives credit to the rondo/kuzma/ball injuries - the Lakers are a lot better than 6-12 without lebron... One can only imagine what MJ would do with two 21-year olds that are ahead of 23-year old pippen (89' pippen), let alone 21-year old pippen

Even Kobe would be trying to beat the warriors if he had 2 guys > Odom and rondo upgrade over smush..
.

[andgar923]

He still takes 100 dribbles when posting small players which I don

[3ball]

[QUOTE=andgar923]He still takes 100 dribbles when posting small players which I don

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

A high iq player compared to most of his contemporaries, but when I see forced comparisons to Bird or even MJ on that front? You can't help but laugh :oldlol:

LeBron has taken point-forward to another level, and I don't mean that in a positive way.

[3ball]

A high iq player compared to most of his contemporaries, but when I see forced comparisons to Bird or even MJ on that front? You can't help but laugh :oldlol:

LeBron has taken point-forward to another level, and I don't mean that in a positive way.


I agree, but it's no coincidence that the guys who are smarter are the champs (warriors, and spurs from a few years ago), who don't play today's ball-domination style

But yeah, lebron-ball is the original harden-ball.. however, it fared far worse against the Warriors in 17' than harden-ball did in 18', so I'm not sure it's the better than harden-ball..

im sure if harden team-hopped to obtain an extra all-star teammate in a weak conference, he'd have similar success and Finals runs as Lebron.. A number of guys would

[tpols]

I agree, but it's no coincidence that the guys who are smarter are the champs (warriors, and spurs from a few years ago), who don't play today's ball-domination style

But yeah, lebron-ball is the original harden-ball.. however, it fared far worse against the Warriors in 17' than harden-ball did in 18', so I'm not sure it's the better than harden-ball..

im sure if harden team-hopped to obtain an extra all-star teammate in a weak conference, he'd have similar success and Finals runs as Lebron.. A number of guys would


Harden creates better spacing on the outside because his shooting is more of a threat. This gives his teammates better looks and himself cleaner driving lanes.

[3ball]

Harden creates better spacing on the outside because his shooting is more of a threat. This gives his teammates better looks and himself cleaner driving lanes.


Very true.. that would explain why harden-ball did so much better against the Warriors in 18' than lebron-ball did in 17'...

And even when he doesn't have the ball, Harden gives other ball-dominators what they need (an elite shooter), whereas lebron doesn't; instead, HE needs the shooter (kyrie)

im sure if harden team-hopped to obtain an extra all-star teammate in a weak conference, he'd have similar success and Finals runs as Lebron.. A number of guys would

[FKAri]

Because:
1. Post play isn't that effective in the modern NBA
2. On TOP of that LeBron isn't that effective in the post

[3ball]

Because:
1. Post play isn't that effective in the modern NBA
2. On TOP of that LeBron isn't that effective in the post
It's more the idea that champions don't play lebron or harden's playground, ball-dominant style

Look at all the champs over the years - spurs, warriors, mavs, lakers, bulls, etc. - none of them play lebron/harden-ball

Ball movement is the superior approach and will usually dominate ball-dominance and lebron/harden-ball

it's a shame that these Lakers aren't projected to compete for a championship - they're loaded - better young talent than Kobe or MJ ever had

[aj1987]

Post-up touches, per game:



Lebron - 2.2 touches at 39% shooting

Durant - 6.4 touches at 54%*

C Paul - 2.4 touches at 42%


* champion

https://stats.nba.com/players/tracking-post-ups/?sort=POST_TOUCHES&dir=1


^^^ isn't that a dumb way to play if ur built like Malone?

lebron obviously lacks goat skill (inferior post player to durant and cp3, who don't rank historically as post players)

And no one gives credit to the rondo/kuzma/ball injuries - the Lakers are a lot better than 6-12 without lebron... One can only imagine what MJ would do with two 21-year olds that are ahead of 23-year old pippen (89' pippen), let alone 21-year old pippen

Even Kobe would be trying to beat the warriors if he had 2 guys > Odom and rondo upgrade over smush..
.
Probably because you're a cherry picking retard. Do the same for '18, '17, '16, '15, and '14.


A high iq player compared to most of his contemporaries, but when I see forced comparisons to Bird or even MJ on that front? You can't help but laugh
Are you saying that LeBron doesn't compare to Bird and MJ when it comes to BB IQ? :facepalm

[FKAri]

It's more the idea that champions don't play lebron or harden's playground, ball-dominant style

Look at all the champs over the years - spurs, warriors, mavs, lakers, bulls, etc. - none of them play lebron/harden-ball

Ball movement is the superior approach and will usually dominate ball-dominance and lebron/harden-ball

it's a shame that these Lakers aren't projected to compete for a championship - they're loaded - better young talent than Kobe or MJ ever had.. :confusedshrug:
You're conflating ball dominance with holding onto the ball. Lebron isn't unnecessarily ball dominant. His problem is ball holding. He just takes too long to make his moves.

[Andrei89]

1-9 without Pippen

Meanwhile 22 yo Lebron brings Cavs to Finals :applause:

[superduper]

Amazing thread.

I don't understand how anyone can even remotely seriously think that Bran is a smart player. Relative to Eastern competition, absolutely LeGOAT is Einstein level genius. Relative to the wild wild West and to MJ (the GOAT) and Bird (GOAT SF) :roll: :roll: :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Probably because you're a cherry picking retard. Do the same for '18, '17, '16, '15, and '14.


Are you saying that LeBron doesn't compare to Bird and MJ when it comes to BB IQ? :facepalm

What are you face palming for?

Its common knowledge that LeBron doesn't have the skills those two had. He's far more reliant on physical gifts and playing with the basketball.

[superduper]

What are you face palming for?

Its common knowledge that LeBron doesn't have the skills or basketball acumen Bird or MJ had. He's far more reliant on physical gifts.

Don't forget he's also very reliant on the two greatest shots the history of the sport of basketball has ever seen from his teammates.

[bigkingsfan]

than how come
than why

:cletus:

[egokiller]

1-9 without Kyrie or Ray Allen's shots.

Meanwhile 1st and 2nd year MJ brings Bulls to playoffs, eventually going 6/6 in the finals. :applause:

^
This one is learning. Slowly, yet still learning. :applause:

[3ball]

Are you saying that LeBron doesn't compare to Bird and MJ when it comes to BB IQ? :facepalm


You can play dumb if you want, but everyone knows that his teams have inferior offenses, ball movement, and rings than MJ and Bird, and MJ's teams were much better despite not having an extra all-star like lebron's teams

Lebron's style is playground ball-domination, and vastly inferior to the best styles that win consistently.... He's talented so his approach can work with enough supporting talent, but it's a shit style at the championship level that normally gets smashed like a prom date





Probably because you're a cherry picking retard. Do the same for '18, '17, '16, '15, and '14.


LeMalone is never among the leaders on the post.. ever.. he ranks similarly each year to Durant, who weighs about 175 pounds

And the issue is that champions don't play lebron or harden's playground, ball-dominant style

Look at all the champs over the years - spurs, warriors, mavs, lakers, bulls - none of them play lebron/harden-ball and their ball movement usually dominates ball-dominance

it's a shame that these Lakers aren't projected to compete for a championship - they're loaded - better young talent than Kobe or MJ ever had

[aj1987]

What are you face palming for?

Its common knowledge that LeBron doesn't have the skills those two had. He's far more reliant on physical gifts and playing with the basketball.
:oldlol:

There's a reason why everyone, including players, GM's, coaches, etc. all say that LeBron has one of the GOAT basketball minds.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/11067098/lebron-james-greatest-weapon-brain

https://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-james-pass-warriors-game-4-basketball-genius-2017-6

[red1]

OP is the kind of guy who gets caught drooling in public.



just a disgusting breed of human being.

[egokiller]

Why did OP get to watch MJ and I had to settle for watching inferiority in the form of Lebron James. It's not fair damn it!

Life isn't fair. Get used to it.

[red1]

Life isn't fair. Get used to it.
Don't edit my quotes bitch.


MJ is the GOAT. Lebron is the 2nd GOAT.


Meanwhile you were a ****** on your first account (straight_ballin).


And you're still a ****** now. :eek:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol:

There's a reason why everyone, including players, GM's, coaches, etc. all say that LeBron has one of the GOAT basketball minds.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/11067098/lebron-james-greatest-weapon-brain

https://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-james-pass-warriors-game-4-basketball-genius-2017-6

Nobody is saying LeBron isn't a smart basketball player.

Before bringing up Larry and Mike, I mentioned that LeBron has a higher basketball acumen than MOST of his peers.

Bird/MJ were quicker decision makers though. And weren't reliant on holding the rock. Above all of that, they had superior basketball skills.

[Round Mound]

He should play PF and develop post moves.

[egokiller]

Don't edit my quotes bitch.


MJ is the GOAT. Lebron is the 2nd GOAT.


Meanwhile you were a ****** on your first account (straight_ballin).


And you're still a ****** now. :eek:

LeBron is no where near 2nd GOAT. If you're not first you're last.

You're an idiot on this account and you're an idiot on the other alts you post on. Oh well.

[red1]

LeBron is no where near 2nd GOAT. If you're not first you're last.

You're an idiot on this account and you're an idiot on the other alts you post on. Oh well.
that's where you lose bitch. I've never made a single post on another account meanwhile you already admit that you ran from your main account after 2016 :roll:

[tpols]

Very true.. that would explain why harden-ball did so much better against the Warriors in 18' than lebron-ball did in 17'...

And even when he doesn't have the ball, Harden gives other ball-dominators what they need (an elite shooter), whereas lebron doesn't; instead, HE needs the shooter (kyrie)

im sure if harden team-hopped to obtain an extra all-star teammate in a weak conference, he'd have similar success and Finals runs as Lebron.. A number of guys would


A big problem is how Durant goes for 30 on 59TS vs rockets and pj tucker (dime a dozen role player) but went off for record breaking 35 ppg on 70TS vs LeBron. That's the tipping point and we know its not a fluke because KD's had eye popping numbers in all 3 series versus LeBron. As did a green kawhi and castaway 8 ppg iggy. There's just something wrong with lebrons man defense, he gambles with help and saves energy for his effort consuming offense.

[3ball]

You're conflating ball dominance with holding onto the ball. Lebron isn't unnecessarily ball dominant. His problem is ball holding. He just takes too long to make his moves.
Lebron does both, as reflected in his overall time of possession - it's always among the league leaders and literally the highest of anyone ever in the playoffs and Finals

And lebron is a notorious touch-waster... Outside the top 100 in points per touch.. his style is incredibly inefficient and prevents all-time offenses despite all-time offensive help

Look at all the champs over the years - spurs, warriors, mavs, lakers, bulls - none of them play lebron/harden-ball and their ball movement usually dominates ball-dominance

it's a shame that these Lakers aren't projected to compete for a championship - they're loaded - better young talent than Kobe or MJ ever had

[3ball]

A big problem is how Durant goes for 30 on 59TS vs rockets and pj tucker (dime a dozen role player) but went off for record breaking 35 ppg on 70TS vs LeBron. That's the tipping point and we know its not a fluke because KD's had eye popping numbers in all 3 series versus LeBron. As did a green kawhi and castaway 8 ppg iggy. There's just something wrong with lebrons man defense, he gambles with help and saves energy for his effort consuming offense.


Good point - durant only went off like that on lebron.. Kawhi and Iggy too.. only on lebron

And here's an example of the trance that people around lebron seem to be in - Cavs' GM Griffin commenting on building around Lebron: "if you aren't delivering championships you’re failing".. (article here (https://amp.si.com/nba/2019/02/22/david-griffin-cavaliers-lebron-james-kyrie-irving-dan-gilbert))

"you", meaning the front office

So the idea is that robot-lebron comes to town with his 28/8/8 stats... but then it's the GM's job to deliver the championship by finding pieces that automatically click with lebron, since apparently it's not lebron's job to develop teammates - he gets to skip that part of winning - he doesn't have TO BUILD a champion; he just has to plug his stats alongside veterans and hope the chemistry is sufficient to win, apparently only once in a while (3/9)
.

[AirTupac]

red1 is such a whiny bitch :rolleyes:

[aj1987]

Nobody is saying LeBron isn't a smart basketball player.

Before bringing up Larry and Mike, I mentioned that LeBron has a higher basketball acumen than MOST of his peers.

Bird/MJ were quicker decision makers though. And weren't reliant on holding the rock. Above all of that, they had superior basketball skills.
LeBron usually in outside the top 10 in time of possession and even then, he's in the top 5 in scoring and top 3 in assists. Heck, Bird himself said that he's in awe of LeBron. So, the person who you think is a tier (or more) above LeBron, himself said LeBron is amazing to watch as a player.

I'll say it again and this is not my opinion. There are tons of player, coaches, GM's, scouts, analysts, etc. who think LeBron has GOAT level basketball IQ.


You can play dumb if you want, but everyone knows that his teams have inferior offenses, ball movement, and rings than MJ and Bird, and MJ's teams were much better despite not having an extra all-star like lebron's teams

Lebron's style is playground ball-domination, and vastly inferior to the best styles that win consistently.... He's talented so his approach can work with enough supporting talent, but it's a shit style at the championship level that normally gets smashed like a prom date
His style of play is good enough to make sure that he's one of two player EVER to have won 4 MVP's and 3 FMVP's.




LeMalone is never among the leaders on the post.. ever.. he ranks similarly each year to Durant, who weighs about 175 pounds
If KD weighs 175, then MJ got shut down by a 5'7" PG in '96 and got humiliated by another 5'6" PG in the PO's in '89 and '90.

Again, you posted their numbers from this season. Do it for '14, '15, '16, '17, and '18, you cherry picking retard.


And the issue is that champions don't play lebron or harden's playground, ball-dominant style
MJ's TOP during his championship seasons was on par with LeBron's during his.


Look at all the champs over the years - spurs, warriors, mavs, lakers, bulls - none of them play lebron/harden-ball and their ball movement usually dominates ball-dominance
Do you have Kobe's time of possession numbers? Dirk's? If not stop being a whiny bitch and STFU.


it's a shame that these Lakers aren't projected to compete for a championship - they're loaded - better young talent than Kobe or MJ ever had
So loaded that the Pelicans weren't willing to give up ONE player for pretty much the entire Lakers roster and shit ton of draft picks.

[tpols]

Good point - durant only went off like that on lebron.. Kawhi and Iggy too.. only on lebron

And here's an example of the trance that people around lebron seem to be in - Cavs' GM Griffin commenting on building around Lebron: "if you aren't delivering championships you’re failing".. (article here (https://amp.si.com/nba/2019/02/22/david-griffin-cavaliers-lebron-james-kyrie-irving-dan-gilbert))

"you", meaning the front office

So the idea is that robot-lebron comes to town with his 28/8/8 stats... but then it's the GM's job to deliver the championship by finding pieces that automatically click with lebron, since apparently it's not lebron's job to develop teammates - he gets to skip that part of winning - he doesn't have TO BUILD a champion; he just has to plug his stats alongside veterans and hope the chemistry is sufficient to win, apparently only once in a while (3/9)
.


Its all politics... If you disrespect someone who brings as much money to the league as LeBron has its like putting a hit on yourself.

Plus LeBron would never admit his style of play is inferior to warrior spurs style that has beat his big 3's by record setting margins.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron usually in outside the top 10 in time of possession and even then, he's in the top 5 in scoring and top 3 in assists. Heck, Bird himself said that he's in awe of LeBron. So, the person who you think is a tier (or more) above LeBron, himself said LeBron is amazing to watch as a player.

I'll say it again and this is not my opinion. There are tons of player, coaches, GM's, scouts, analysts, etc. who think LeBron has GOAT level basketball IQ.

I'm talking about skills and in-game intelligence.

Not making the argument that LeBron doesn't have them. Or that he isn't an ATG with no respect from peers.

[superduper]

Bran sucks. It's as simple as that.

[3ball]

His style of play is good enough to make sure that he's one of two player EVER to have won 4 MVP's and 3 FMVP's.


Only by team-hopping and adding an extra all-star teammate that most players don't get, and in a weak conference at that





There are tons of player, coaches, GM's, scouts, analysts, etc. who think LeBron has GOAT level basketball IQ.


They're all in the industry and it's their job, just like the "experts" that swore Hillary would win.. some of them are the same people (538)





If KD weighs 175, then MJ got shut down by a 5'7" PG in '96 and got humiliated by another 5'6" PG in the PO's in '89 and '90.


Fair enough, but the point remains -

lebron should be a way better post-up player, especially at 34 years old, yet it's durant that posts up 3 times as much and shoots 15 percentage points better..

LeMalone can't dominate the post, which is further evidence he's overrated





Do you have Kobe's time of possession numbers? Dirk's If not stop being a whiny bitch and STFU.


Time of possession (minutes per game)


2014

Lebron - 5.5
Durant - 3.9
D Wade - 3.7
DeRozan - 3.4
Nowitzki - 1.9

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1


This was the year Dirk took the 14' Spurs to 7 games. He would've demolished lebron again in the Finals just like the Spurs did

Lebron's time of possession is always 5-7 minutes, or 2-3 minutes more than durant, kawhi, draymond, and any other non-PG except harden





LeBron usually in outside the top 10 in time of possession and even then, he's in the top 5 in scoring and top 3 in assists. Heck, Bird himself said that he's in awe of LeBron. So, the person who you think is a tier (or more) above LeBron, himself said LeBron is amazing to watch as a player.


He's #1 or 2 among guys that don't start at PG

His point-guard time is abnormal at forward, so teammates have less time and assists alongside him than they do alongside other forwards, i.e. Durant, Kawhi, etc





MJ's TOP during his championship seasons was on par with LeBron's during his

.
MJ didn't bring the ball up or play point guard, and his assisted rate was twice what lebron and other point-guards are..

Nice try though





So loaded that the Pelicans weren't willing to give up ONE player for pretty much the entire Lakers roster and shit ton of draft picks.


It would've been a mistake for the lakers

Ingram and Kuzma are 21-,year old studs - both better than Odom or 89' Pippen... And MJ almost took 89' pippen to the Finals.. lebron's expectation/projection with these Lakers is nowhere near goat, nor Kobe's expectation level.. lebron is being babied
.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron is built like Lebron and plays like Lebron.

He is in his own lane. Top 5 player of all time any way you slice it.

[TheCorporation]

Lebron is built like Lebron and plays like Lebron.

He is in his own lane. Top 3 player of all time any way you slice it.

https://media.giphy.com/media/U1XhGr8CWqvVC/giphy.gif

[NBAGOAT]

ball dominance and/or over dribbling is a whole different issue which I tend to concede.

At least the consensus now however is if you're trying to score a lot from the post, you're not playing correctly unless you're an once in a lifetime post player(and bron isnt close to that admittedly at his best he's above average). A lot of teams post up specifically to kick out to shooters as option 1.

Edit: None of the modern ball movement teams you listed in the warriors, spurs, and mavs relied heavily on postups. Mavs did to some extent but ofc dirk is very good there(right below historic honestly).

This article from 6 years ago shows the craziness http://grantland.com/the-triangle/how-efficient-is-a-post-up-play/

[3ball]

Lebron is built like Lebron and plays like Lebron.

He is in his own lane. Top 5 player of all time any way you slice it.
How many rings without team-hopping for an extra all-star in a weak conference?

Lots of guys would have a lot more rings if you added an extra all-star to their team

And how many rings without ray and kyrie to hit the big shot.. seriously, he has ONE ring without those shots... along with two record defeats to 2 different teams and the goat choke to a 3rd..

[sdot_thadon]

How many rings without team-hopping for an extra all-star in a weak conference?

Lots of guys would have a lot more rings if you added an extra all-star to their team

And how many rings without ray and kyrie to hit the big shot.. seriously, he has ONE ring without those shots... along with two record defeats to 2 different teams and the goat choke to a 3rd..
same way lots of guys would have 6 rings if they had more stars than the opposition in almost every series and a hall of fame coach......

isn't Mj the only 90s star that got to play with a top 20ish all time teammate......maybe malone? maybe dream? too many don't rate clyde or stockton highly though......

[aj1987]

Only by team-hopping and adding an extra all-star teammate that most players don't get, and in a weak conference at that
And your boy literally never made it past the first round without Pippen.


They're all in the industry and it's their job, just like the "experts" that swore Hillary would win.. some of them are the same people (538)
So, I guess people saying Ordan is the GOAT are just people in the industry, just like the "experts" that swore Hilary would win...some of them are the same people.


Fair enough, but the point remains -

lebron should be a way better post-up player, especially at 34 years old, yet it's durant that posts up 3 times as much and shoots 15 percentage points better..

LeMalone can't dominate the post, which is further evidence he's overrated
Jordan was a shooting guard who couldn't shoot 3's. They had to shorten the 3pt line for him to be any decent. Why didn't he practice the most valuable and efficient shot on the court, which could've also helped his teams with more spacing and thus resulting in better offenses?


Time of possession (minutes per game)


2014

Lebron - 5.5
Durant - 3.9
D Wade - 3.7
DeRozan - 3.4
Nowitzki - 1.9

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

This was the year Dirk took the 14' Spurs to 7 games. He would've demolished lebron again in the Finals just like the Spurs did[/quote]
LeBron was 32nd in the league in Time of Possession. LeBron also played nearly 38 minutes a game, while Dirk played like 5 fewer minutes. Not only that, LeBron was 3rd in scoring in the league (5 more than Dirk) and 10th in assists (4 more than Dirk). Dirk was 13th in scoring and 103rd in APG. So, yeah, LeBron holding the ball more was more because he's a more productive player. The Heat were also the 5th ranked offense, even though Wade missed a significant chunk of the season and the '14 Heat were just terrible.


Lebron's time of possession is always 5-7 minutes, or 2-3 minutes more than durant, kawhi, draymond, and any other non-PG except harden
LeBron also usually averaged more points, rebounds, and assists than pretty much all of them.


He's #1 or 2 among guys that don't start at PG
Why the **** does it matter that he's not a PG, you imbecile? He's a point forward and one of the best passers the game has ever seen, while also being one of the best scorers EVER. Why should he give up the ball to an inferior playmaker to run the offense?


His point-guard time is abnormal at forward, so teammates have less time and assists alongside him than they do alongside other forwards, i.e. Durant, Kawhi, etc
He's a point forward, so yeah. And:

Why the **** does it matter that he's not a PG, you imbecile? He's a point forward and one of the best passers the game has ever seen, while also being one of the best scorers EVER. Why should he give up the ball to an inferior playmaker to run the offense?


MJ didn't bring the ball up or play point guard, and his assisted rate was twice what lebron and other point-guards are..
Prove that MJ's assisted rate is "twice what LeBron and other point-guards are". Go ahead. Try to prove it.

BTW, you love Kobe, right? For his career, Kobe's 2pt assisted percentage is 34.7%. LeBron for his career is at 35.1%. A difference of 0.4% per game or a half a shot a game.


It would've been a mistake for the lakers

Ingram and Kuzma are 21-,year old studs - both better than Odom or 89' Pippen... And MJ almost took 89' pippen to the Finals.. lebron's expectation/projection with these Lakers is nowhere near goat, nor Kobe's expectation level.. lebron is being babied.
Once again, the Pelicans weren't willing to part with ONE player, when the Lakers were willing to give up Ingram, Kuzma, Hart, Zubac, Ball, and a bunch of draft picks. Those players (in addition to Randle) won 35 last season and are 6-12 without LeBron this season. They are just not that good and the Lakers are ridiculously far from being stacked.

Oh, and MJ wasn't even close to taking Pippen to the Finals in '89. Dude flat out QUIT and CHOKED in the pivotal game 4 and 5, when the Bulls were up 2-1.



I know you love cherry picking posts and taking out of your ass while copy pasting, so if you do that, I'm going to just copy paste this post. No point in wasting my time trying to educate you.

[3ball]

Same way lots of guys would have 6 rings if they had and a hall of fame coach......

......
MJ was the goat candidate in 1990 when unknown Phil became coach.. MJ made Phil by agreeing to fit his goat skill into the restrictive triangle, instead of rejecting the weird offense.

otoh, lebron rejected coaching from everyone, including Walton (https://sports.yahoo.com/lebron-james-reportedly-ignoring-luke-waltons-play-calls-nobodys-surprise-210514450.html), Lue (http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/lebron-james-attitude-listen-to-tyronne-lue-cavs-heat-david-blatt/hjmyp8w984gi1xkzex534zc19), Blatt (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/12/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-david-blatt-rift), and Spolestra (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-miami-heat-news-0402-20150401-story.html) - he ran lebron-ball instead of getting coached, so the next Phil Jackson wasn't allowed

Those are the facts, but carry on..





Same way lots of guys would have 6 rings if they had more stars than the opposition in almost every series


The 89' bulls had zero stars and beat a big 3 of perennial all-stars in Cleveland, who were the #1 SRS team

And the 91-93' bulls only had one other all-star, while the pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot.

So ur wrong

Also, after magic/worthy and mj/pippen, the 91' Lakers destroy the bulls.. ditto every team the bulls faced - i.e. pippen's 19-22 ppg peak isn't bad for a 2nd option, but he wasn't that during the 2nd three-peat and the bulls' incredibly thin roster after pippen necessitated MJ's goat usage and ppg, with team-leading APG for most playoff runs (6 of 9 runs with pip)





isn't Mj the only 90s star that got to play with a top 20ish all time teammate......maybe malone? maybe dream? too many don't rate clyde or stockton highly though......


As a lebron fan, you should appreciate that pippen's stats are aids compared to various #2's in the 90's like Kemp (infact schrempf outplayed pip in 96' Finals too); Stockton is ranked higher than pip and carried teams offensively... Penny was better.. 98' DR or Duncan was better.. drexler, Zo, and numerous others were arguably better #2's

KJ, Tim Hardaway, Derrick Coleman were all better offensive players, and many, many more.. Vin Baker.. Allan Houston was a better scorer... Byron Scott was a better scorer... Like, everybody scored better than Scottie.. peak Rik Smits was a better offensive force than pippen ever was.. there's too many to name.. Marbury? Okay, maybe that's too far, but Strickland demolishes pippen on offense.. Webber was better offensively as the 2nd or 3rd option of run tmc.. like, peak Juwan Howard was close to pippen.. I maintain that Bosh was a better natural talent and would've been superior to Pippen if he grew up alongside MJ like pippen did.. and on and on.. if you watched back then, you'd know this

[egokiller]

Imagine being 280 lbs and 6'8 and refusing to play in the post and develop post moves like a proper power forward because you want to be a point guard. :lol

Had he played power forward his whole career, he'd be better than 3/9. NOT doing that was NOT smart.... at all.

[warriorfan]

Imagine being 280 lbs and 6'8 and refusing to play in the post and develop post moves like a proper power forward because you want to be a point guard. :lol

Had he played power forward his whole career, he'd be better than 3/9. NOT doing that was NOT smart.... at all.

He wanna be like Mike

But he ain

[3ball]

And your boy literally never made it past the first round without Pippen.


MJ won his rings with 1 less all-star than lebron needed for his rings...

Also:


88' first round PPG:

MJ - 45
Pip - 7


MJ got the bulls past the 1st round, not pippen





So, I guess people saying Ordan is the GOAT are just people in the industry, just like the "experts" that swore Hilary would win...some of them are the same people.


Fair point, but those media made MJ earn his goat status with rings; while lebron doesn't have to.. heck, making these playoffs is being billed as the Finals for bron





Jordan was a shooting guard who couldn't shoot 3's. They had to shorten the 3pt line for him to be any decent. Why didn't he practice the most valuable and efficient shot on the court, which could've also helped his teams with more spacing and thus resulting in better offenses?


Because no one else was doing it.

But he made sure his teams had great ball movement and brand of basketball, since that results in the best teams, regardless of era





LeBron also usually averaged more points, rebounds, and assists than pretty much all of them.


You're delusional:


Durant 17' Finals:. 35 ppg with 3.8 minutes time of possession
Lebron 17' Finals:. 34 ppg with 8.2 minutes time of possession

Team assists per game: GSW 29.5 , CLE 21.6

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1


Lebron's ball-dominance stops ball movement and prevents championship ball; Durant's skill allows great teamwork and a great team

There's no excuse for lebron's 17' Cavs to not have 60-win favorites like kawhi and curry did.. but instead the plodding lebron-ball won 51 games and was a big underdog





It doesn'te **** does it matter that he's not a PG, you imbecile? He's a point forward and one of the best passers the game has ever seen, while also being one of the best scorers EVER. Why should he give up the ball to an inferior playmaker to run the offense?


2-PG lineups give less time and assists to the other 3 players, resulting in low team assists/ball movement

Indeed, teams with 2 PG's (two guys with 5+ time of possession) rank low in assists (lebron/rondo, harden/cp3, doncic/dsw)... :confusedshrug:

And you asked why give the ball to a lesser player - it's because they aren't "running the offense" or taking over for lebron.. ball movement is the format used by the best teams and brands like the Warriors/Spurs/11' Mavs/90's Bulls.. not ball-domination where 1 guy tries to make all the plays.. :facepalm .. that style would only win once in a while, even if you stacked the deck in a weak conference





Prove that MJ's assisted rate is "twice what LeBron and other point-guards are". Go ahead. Try to prove it.


Assisted Rate:

Jordan 1997 - 53% (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/scoring/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)
Lebron 2019 - 31% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/)
Lebron 2018 - 31% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/)
Westbrook 2019 - 24.6% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201566/scoring/)
.

[tpols]

OPs stats are damning... This guy poasts less than 5'11 Chris paul, and he came onto a team full of playmakers that couldve fed him ~ rondo Lonzo Ingram etc. Lebrons rigid style is a HUGE mark against him compared to his contemporaries.

[Round Mound]

[B]3-ball we already know MJ is the goat why keep mentioning it. :confusedshrug: and yes Lebron has no post game when he should at his size, strenght and weight. He should stop playing point-forward and play power-point forward. That's his natural position. He want's to be too much like Magic creating and passing for others when he doesn't have Magic's vision and he want

[aj1987]

MJ won his rings with 1 less all-star than lebron needed for his rings...
LeBron won a ring with ZERO All-Stars, ZERO All-NBA player, and ZERO All-Def players. MJ never did that. :confusedshrug:


Also:


88' first round PPG:

MJ - 45
Pip - 7

MJ got the bulls past the 1st round, not pippen
Also,

'89 ECF pivotal Game 4:

MJ - 5-15 and the L

"89 ECF pivotal Game 5:

MJ - 4-8 (massive chokejob in a 9pt loss)


Fair point, but those media made MJ earn his goat status with rings; while lebron doesn't have to.. heck, making these playoffs is being billed as the Finals for bron
:roll:

The Nike marketing and brainwashing did a number on you.


Because no one else was doing it.
That's a retarded ****ing excuse. What you're saying is that players and coaches were too dumb to realize the importance of the 3pt shot and MJ was just a low IQ player.


You're delusional:


Durant 17' Finals:. 35 ppg with 3.8 minutes time of possession
Lebron 17' Finals:. 34 ppg with 8.2 minutes time of possession

Team assists per game: GSW 29.5 , CLE 21.6

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1


Lebron's ball-dominance stops ball movement and prevents championship ball; Durant's skill allows great teamwork and a great team
The 2017 Cavs had one of the GOAT offenses. They had an ORtg of 114.8.


There's no excuse for lebron's 17' Cavs to not have 60-win favorites like kawhi and curry did.. but instead the plodding lebron-ball won 51 games and was a big underdog
If you're using assists to say that the Cavs should've had a better record, hold this massive L and move on. The Cavs were 3rd in the league in ORtg.



2-PG lineups give less time and assists to the other 3 players, resulting in low team assists/ball movement
Again, LeBron IS the point guard on his teams. Get that through your thick skull.


Indeed, teams with 2 PG's (two guys with 5+ time of possession) rank low in assists (lebron/rondo, harden/cp3, doncic/dsw)... :confusedshrug:
They have ELITE offenses. :cheers:


And you asked why give the ball to a lesser player - it's because they aren't "running the offense" or taking over for lebron.. ball movement is the format used by the best teams and brands like the Warriors/Spurs/11' Mavs/90's Bulls.. not ball-domination where 1 guy tries to make all the plays.. :facepalm .. that style would only win once in a while, even if you stacked the deck in a weak conference
:facepalm

Literally the only reason why the '11 Mavs weren't swept was because of LeBron's '89 MJ level choke.


Assisted Rate:

Jordan 1997 - 53% (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/scoring/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)
Lebron 2019 - 31% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/)
Lebron 2018 - 31% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/)
Westbrook 2019 - 24.6% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201566/scoring/)
.
Why did you leave out '98? BTW, you need to go back to 1st grade and learn basic math.

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]3-ball we already know MJ is the goat why keep mentioning it. :confusedshrug: and yes Lebron has no post game when he should at his size, strenght and weight. He should stop playing point-forward and play power-point forward. That's his natural position. He want's to be too much like Magic creating and passing for others when he doesn't have Magic's vision and he want

[andgar923]

Imagine being 280 lbs and 6'8 and refusing to play in the post and develop post moves like a proper power forward because you want to be a point guard. :lol

Had he played power forward his whole career, he'd be better than 3/9. NOT doing that was NOT smart.... at all.
I stated this for eons and still stan by it.

Big men are making a mistake trying to learn from Hakeem in the off season. They should workout with Malone instead of Hakeem. Hakeem was a unique player with a unique athleticism and style. Most big men can't play that way nor should they try to emulate it.

Malone should be the modern day prototype on how big men should play. Nothing fancy, just effective and proper use of their bodies to get good shots.

If Bron and other bigs understood what made Malone so great they'd be more dangerous and effective in the post.

It literally p*sses me off to see Bron take 10 dribbles and 10 seconds to back up a 6'0 point guard.

[pauk]

Cuz he is better than Jordan.

[3ball]

LeBron won a ring with ZERO All-Stars, ZERO All-NBA player, and ZERO All-Def players. MJ never did that. :confusedshrug:


First if all, Lebron lost 8 of 13 seasons WITH those things (05', 09', 10', 11', 14' 15', 17' 18'), while MJ almost never did, except in 90' and 95' where he had better excuses than lebron ever had (migraine, baseball).

Secondly, Lebron never won without 2 perennial all-stars or sure-fire HOF's; that means more than your use of kyrie's injuries/missed games to say he wasn't an all-star player in 16'.. pretty shameful tbh considering this perennial all-star saved the Finals





'89 ECF pivotal Game 4:

MJ - 5-15 and the L

"89 ECF pivotal Game 5:

MJ - 4-8 (massive chokejob in a 9pt loss)


Literally the only reason why the '11 Mavs weren't swept was because of LeBron's '89 MJ level choke.


https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-25-2019/ln3-fC.gif


^^^^ Are you saying Lebron did that in the 2011 Finals and averaged 31 on 46%?... :biggums:

Hell no - he averaged 17, which was the goat choke... :yaohappy:

lebron never hit a game-winner over a 2-time dpoy, or the champs (or in the Finals)

No, that's kyrie's job to hit it over the MVP.. that's the difference - lebron needs guys to make those shots against champs or at the championship level (Finals).. Whereas MJ's game-winners were on the highest level, and also a couple series-winners (89/93 vs Cavs.. 98' Finals)





That's a retarded ****ing excuse. What you're saying is that players and coaches were too dumb to realize the importance of the 3pt shot and MJ was just a low IQ player.


No one realized the value of the 3ball, but everyone realizes the value of ball-movement, except Lebron, whose style yields low-assist teams, and ceded the best brand of ball and offenses to Curry, Duncan, and even Dirk.





The 2017 Cavs had one of the GOAT offenses. They had an ORtg of 114.8.


#26 all-time, which posed a big disadvantage against the #1 warriors of 2017.. obviously, the 92' bulls and their #2 offense would stand a much better chance, despite having one less all-star and HOF





They have ELITE offenses. :cheers:


Lebron's offenses peaked at #26, 46, and 62 all-time, which posed a big disadvantage against the #1 warriors...

Whereas MJ could beat the Warriors because he fielded the #2, 6, 12 and 16 offenses all-time, which is easily the most top 10 or 20 offenses of any team, despite a cast with only 1 all-star and no lethal scorers, or anyone requiring a double

MJ had the best team offenses despite weak offensive help because he was the goat scorer, which included a fundamentally-sound playing style that allowed goat teamwork.. MJ would destroy the Durant's Warriors with a fraction the cast he has





Again, LeBron IS the point guard on his teams. Get that through your thick skull.


That's the problem. The best teams don't use a traditional pg.. :whatever:

That's why Lebron rarely has the best teams

(despite unprecedented methods to play with the best talent)

Ball-dominance kills ball-movement, and ball-movement is correlated with the most winning brands of ball.. so lebron's style inherently makes it harder to build a great team compared to a less ball-dominant player with equal or greater scoring ability (Curry, Bird, MJ, Duncan).

Ball-movement also stands the test of time - the bad boys briefly overtook the league with a low ball movement, physical approach, until the bulls restored ball movement to it's rightful place as the best brand.. Similarly, the 14' spurs ended the Heat's hodge-podge of HOF mercenaries and weaker brand





Why did you leave out '98?


Assisted Rate:

Jordan 1997 - 53% (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/scoring/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)
Jordan 1998 - 51% (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/scoring/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)
Lebron 2019 - 31% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/)
Lebron 2018 - 31% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/)
Westbrook 2019 - 24.6% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201566/scoring/)
.

[aj1987]

First if all, Lebron lost 8 of 13 seasons WITH those things (05', 09', 10', 11', 14' 15', 17' 18'), while MJ almost never did, except in 90' and 95' where he had better excuses than lebron ever had (migraine, baseball).

Secondly, Lebron never won without 2 perennial all-stars or sure-fire HOF's; that means more than your use of kyrie's injuries/missed games to say he wasn't an all-star player in 16'.. pretty shameful tbh considering this perennial all-star saved the Finals
LeBron won a title without a SINGLE All-Star, All-NBA, All-Def player, which MJ was getting bent over in the first rounds without Pippen.




^^^^ Are you saying Lebron did that in the 2011 Finals and averaged 31 on 46%?... :biggums:
'89 ECF pivotal Game 4:

MJ - 5-15 and the L

"89 ECF pivotal Game 5:

MJ - 4-8 (massive chokejob in a 9pt loss)


Hell no - he averaged 17, which was the goat choke... :yaohappy:
Go back to first grade, learn math, and then comeback and talk to me.


lebron never hit a game-winner over a 2-time dpoy, or the champs (or in the Finals)
Except he literally sealed a G7 of the Finals over Kawhi.

BTW, what happened in games 4 and 5?


No, that's kyrie's job to hit it over the MVP.. that's the difference - lebron needs guys to make those shots against champs or at the championship level (Finals).. Whereas MJ's game-winners were on the highest level, and also a couple series-winners (89/93 vs Cavs.. 98' Finals)
So, MVP or DPOY? Get it right, you ****ing idiot.

LeBron only managed to have the most points in the 4th Q that game. 8 straight to put the Cavs up with 4 minutes left. The game and series saving block and the game and series clinching FT.


No one realized the value of the 3ball, but everyone realizes the value of ball-movement, except Lebron, whose style yields low-assist teams, and ceded the best brand of ball and offenses to Curry, Duncan, and even Dirk.
You do realize that Duncan and Dirk never led offenses as good as some of LeBron's, right?

The 2011 Mav's were 8th offensively, BTW, while the Heat were 3rd.


Lebron's offenses peaked at #26, 46, and 62 all-time, which posed a big disadvantage against the #1 warriors...
Dirk peaked at 86 and 95, while Duncan peaked at #98, moron. :oldlol: :oldlol:


Whereas MJ could beat the Warriors because he fielded the #2, 6, 12 and 16 offenses all-time, which is easily the most top 10 or 20 offenses of any team, despite a cast with only 1 all-star and no lethal scorers, or anyone requiring a double
Yeah, no. MJ is not beating the Warriors on LeBron's teams. Not even close.


MJ had the best team offenses despite weak offensive help because he was the goat scorer, which included a fundamentally-sound playing style that allowed goat teamwork.. MJ would destroy the Durant's Warriors with a fraction the cast he has
The Warriors would absolutely MURK the Cavs with Jordan in LeBron's place. Would've probably retired for good.


Ball-movement also stands the test of time - the bad boys briefly overtook the league with a low ball movement, physical approach, until the bulls restored ball movement to it's rightful place as the best brand.. Similarly, the 14' spurs ended the Heat's hodge-podge of HOF mercenaries and weaker brand
LeBron is the only person in the history of the sport (other than MJ) with at least 3 FMVP's and 4 MVP's.


Assisted Rate:

Jordan 1997 - 53% (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/scoring/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)
Jordan 1998 - 51% (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/scoring/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)
Lebron 2019 - 31% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/)
Lebron 2018 - 31% (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/scoring/)
Westbrook 2019 - 24.6% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201566/scoring/)
.
You rounded down LeBron's 31.9% to 31% (TWICE) and rounded up MJ's 50.9% to 51%. Only a massive retard like yourself would do that. :oldlol:

BTW, that's not half. Not even close.

[3ball]

Yeah I curb-stomped aj1977 itt

[aj1987]

Yeah I curb-stomped aj1977 itt
Just this one part of my post is enough to prove how much of a cherry picking and lying retard you are:

You rounded down LeBron's 31.9% to 31% (TWICE) and rounded up MJ's 50.9% to 51%.