KG cannot be ranked higher than 4th among PFs all time

[AussieSteve]

We know he only got out of the first round once, and missed the playoffs three times before Boston. But people tend to make excuses for this, based on his poor supporting casts over the years. But this is only part of the story. The other part is that KG just couldn't get it done year after year.

KG's record in win or go home elimination games, prior to 2004.
1997 v Houston: 17 points, 7/16 fg (44%efg) - L
1998 v Seattle: 7 points, 3/11 fg (27%efg) - L
1999 v Spurs: 20 points, 6/20 fg (30%efg) - L
2000 v Blazers, 23 points 11/22 fg (52%efg) - W
2000 v Blazers, 17 points, 5/20 fg (28%efg) - L
2001 v Spurs, 22 points, 7/14 fg (50%efg) - W
2001 v Spurs, 19 points, 6/13 fg (46%efg) - L
2002 v Mavs, 22 points, 9/19 fg (47%efg) - L
2003 v Lakers 18 points, 9/21 fg (43%efg) - L

That's 18.3 ppg on 41% efg, and a 2-7 record over 9 elimination games in seven years.

In the 7 games he lost to lose those series, he averaged 17.1ppg on 38%efg.

Honestly, I dare any KG fan to compare the above to TD, Barkley, Dirk, Malone or McHale's elimination game record. KG simply could not step up offensively when he needed to.



Skip ahead to 2008 when he won the chip... He faced elimination twice during that run, scoring 18 and 13 points on a combined 14/26 shooting. Lucky Pierce scored 41 in game 7 against the Cavs to get them across the line.

He also averaged 18ppg on 47%ts in the Finals, while Pierce and Allen averaged 22 and 20ppg on 71%ts and 59%ts respectively.



KG was ATG defensively but 2nd option level offensively. A 2nd option cannot be put over Barkley or Dirk, who regularly willed their teams to playoff wins with 35+ and 40+ point games.

[MrFonzworth]

Thanks for the stats.

[AussieSteve]

I feel like a lot of is reputation comes off the back of a single season. His 2004 season which was awesome. He led Minny to 58 wins, was a near unanimous MVP and took Minny to the WCF. But is his 04 season overstated?

In 2003, the best players in the league outside of KG were probably Duncan, Kobe, TMac, Shaq, AI, Dirk, Kidd and Webber. In 2004, every single one of these players missed at least a month of the season through injury, except Dirk. This had a two fold effect:
1. Lots of teams, most notably Minny's biggest competition in the West (Spurs, Lakers and Kings), all suffered long stretches without their superstars, making the road to 58 wins and the #1 west seed an easier one.
2. KG's path to the MVP became much easier.

In the MVP count that year, the only players to receive first place votes outside of KG were Jermaine O'Neal and Peja Stojakovic. That is one hell of a lean year of MVP candidates.

And let's face it... he had a decent cast that year. Cassell was All-NBA 2nd team that season. Sprewell a four time former All Star. A lot of great forwards could have lead that roster to well over 50 wins.

[Young X]

You don't understand how important defense is especially for bigs.

You need a defensive anchor. What's the point of putting up all those numbers when you're giving those back up on the other end?

[ImKobe]

From 98-07

KG 22/13/5 1.4 stl 1.6 blk 54.7%TS

Duncan 22/12/3 0.8 stl 2.5 blk 55.1%TS

one played on mostly bad teams and the other played for the GOAT coach with a bunch of HOF talent.

[warriorfan]

KG is literally one of the greatest defenders of all time. Op is stupid.

[DMAVS41]

He can be ranked as high as 2nd all time and it be absolutely fine actually.

KG is tough to rank because he played for such a shit franchise most of his best years in the league.

The power forwards after Duncan can be pretty much in any order with KG / Dirk / Malone / Pettit / Barkley...

I'd probably have KG 3rd or 4th...

[Dr Hawk]

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Garnett

[AussieSteve]

From 98-07

KG 22/13/5 1.4 stl 1.6 blk 54.7%TS

Duncan 22/12/3 0.8 stl 2.5 blk 55.1%TS

one played on mostly bad teams and the other played for the GOAT coach with a bunch of HOF talent.

What about in the playoffs?

More to the point, what about in elimination games?

[hold this L]

From 98-07

KG 22/13/5 1.4 stl 1.6 blk 54.7%TS

Duncan 22/12/3 0.8 stl 2.5 blk 55.1%TS

one played on mostly bad teams and the other played for the GOAT coach with a bunch of HOF talent.
Damn, these amazing Spurs teams must be doing so much better since Duncan retired

['Toine=MVP]

If you posted how he did in games where a win would advance them, and the result of that game, I think that would be a lot more telling.

Some of the ones you list above, they were going to lose the series badly anyway because the team sucked. So whether they lost game 5, when down 1-3 heading into it or not, is not hugely important when the team has no shot to come back.

[ImKobe]

Damn, these amazing Spurs teams must be doing so much better since Duncan retired

Didn't the Spurs win 60+ games the year after he retired and had the Warriors down 25 @Oracle before Kawhi's injury? Didn't they win 47 games and make the Playoffs the next year without Kawhi? Aren't they in the Playoffs again with a completely different roster this year?

[FireDavidKahn]

I like how people completely ignore defense. In the play offs teams could just double team KG on every possession and make all the scrubs on this to beat them. Hell in the WCF against the Lakers he was forced to play pg after casell injured himself doing the big ball dance. It's ****ing comical how terrible this organization tried to build around KG.

You switch Duncan and KG and the Spurs would have had the same success in the long run.

[Round Mound]

[B]I didn't see KG with the Wolves but going by his stats he seems to be pretty good. I did see him in 2008 with the Celtics and he was definetly the anchor defensively but offensively it was Pierce and Allen who took the load. He was definetly over 7'0 ft tall though and a great defensive presence but he definetly couldn't guard Barkley under the older rules. He wasn

[kennethgriffen]

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Garnett


i got

#1 Duncan
#2 Garnett
#3 Dirk
#4 Karl
#5 Barkley


2-5 are all pretty close though

[superduper]

Thanks for the stats.

:roll: :roll:

first reply ether

[AussieSteve]

KG is literally one of the greatest defenders of all time.

This is true.

And he had second option ppg on scrub efficiency when his team needed him most in the playoffs (2004 notwithstanding)

[theballerFKA Ace]

Timmy
Malone



Dirk



KG
Sir Charles

[AussieSteve]

KG is literally one of the greatest defenders of all time. Op is stupid.

Here's why, no matter how good KG was defensively, it cannot compensate for his repeatedly poor offensive performances in the playoffs - which contributed to his inability to win before he moved to Boston.

KG's elite defense was worth maybe 2 saved points a game on average vs Barkley's apparently trash defense. Read on to see why this is the case.

For each playoff series KG played at Minny, here is a list of the differences between the offensive rating and ppg of his opponents in that series and their offensive rating and ppg during the RS that year...

Yr Opponent: ortg / ppg
1997 Rockets: +15 ortg / +10 ppg
1998 Sonics: +1 / -5
1999 Spurs: -1 / -6
2000 Blazers: -1 / -11
2001 Spurs: -5 / -7
2002 Mavs: +6 / +8
2003 Lakers: +5 / +7
2004 Nuggets: -4 / -6
2004 Kings: -9 / -10
2004 Lakers: +2 / -6

Average: +1 ortg / -3 ppg
Median: +0 ortg / -6 ppg

(If we ignore 1997, then the numbers improve slightly to -1 / -4 and -1 / -6.)

So there is basically no difference between the rate at which teams scored against Minny in the PO relative to their offensive production in the RS. A lower pace the the playoffs reduced ppg overall.


For comparison here is the same list for Barkley's playoff opponents during all his series at Philly. He's rubbish at D. Surely the difference will be clear as day. Well, let's see.

Yr Opponent: ortg / ppg
1985 Bullets: +1 / -4
1985 Bucks: -5 / -4
1985 Celtics: -6 / -10
1986 Bullets: +2 / -2
1986 Bucks: +0 / -4
1987 Bucks: +3 +4
1989 Knicks: -1 / -9
1990 Cavs: +7 / +4
1990 Bulls: +5 / -3
1991 Bucks: -6 / -5
1991 Bulls: +4 / -7

Average: +0 ortg / -4 ppg
Median: +1 ortg / -4 ppg

Again, basically no difference in opponents scoring rate, while a lower pace led to lower ppg overall.

The numbers do favor KG, as you would expect. Particularly if we were to remove 1997. But even then, we're talking literally a couple of points a game.

Where is the massive defensive impact that KG brings, which overcomes Barkley's GOAT scoring and rebounding at the PF position?

[dankok8]

OP chose a bunch of games from a super young KG. Garnett entered his prime around the turn of the millennium. Also, how about including his elimination games from the 2004 playoffs? He had a monster Game 7 against the Kings for instance.

[Round Mound]

Garnett was only better at on aspect while Barkley was better at shooting, scoring, rebounding and passing. He was also a better coast to coast finisher and clutch: shooter/scorer

[90sgoat]

KG is a lot like Lebron in that both were low fundamental, athletic high schoolers, who stacked the stat sheets, but never translated to as many wins as stats should suggest.

KG has the same problem as Lebron, a lack of postup fundamentals, a lack of ability to get reliable half court baskets.

KG simply could not be relied upon to score consistently. While he was not AD level of passiveness, he also couldn't go bang on the block for easy short hook scores and similar.

[FireDavidKahn]

It's sad how people trash KG without looking at context.

Not too worried though, pretty much every single person in any professional that covers basketball recognizes his greatness and impact.

[SamuraiSWISH]

KG the best PF ever ... Duncan is a Center

[Jasper]

I thought he was a 3 point shooting guard... :confusedshrug:

Someone with his height that doesn't play inside is not supposed to be stereotyped.

[AussieSteve]

It's sad how people trash KG without looking at context.

Not too worried though, pretty much every single person in any professional that covers basketball recognizes his greatness and impact.

Not trashing on him. He's #4 PF ever IMO. The guys ahead of him showed up in the playoffs. Whereas KG usually* didn't.

*2004 is an exception.

KG apologists say 'kg had trash teams' and 'you're not accounting for his defensive impact'. Well the facts are that:
1. In games in which he was were eliminated over the course of those 7 first round defeats at the t'wolves, he averaged 17ppg on 38% shooting. This is bad, but forget the actual numbers. How about the simple fact that this is 4ppg and 11%efg less than his RS numbers over that stretch.
2. Over those 7 playoff series, his opponent's offences were no less efficient AT ALL compared to their RS performance that same season. So as great as his defense was, it did not make a measurable difference in those series.

These are facts. Explain them if he is better than Barkley and Dirk.

[soots]

i got

#1 Duncan
#2 Garnett
#3 Dirk
#4 Karl
#5 Barkley


2-5 are all pretty close though

I hold Dirks ring as a very very special ring.

All 3 other players in that group literally ring chased.
Barkley ->Houston
Malone -> lakers
Garnet -> Boston

I mean Garnett got a ring, but Dirk had to take down the prime heatles and did so. That to me places him above the others. Duncan is Duncan

[kentatm]

You don't understand how important defense is especially for bigs.

You need a defensive anchor. What's the point of putting up all those numbers when you're giving those back up on the other end?


KG's defense is vastly overrated. Whenever he faced a top tier big he usually got roasted. When Dallas swept Minny in '02 KG wasn't even willing to guard Dirk by the end of the series he was getting worked so bad.

[Young X]

KG's defense is vastly overrated. Whenever he faced a top tier big he usually got roasted. When Dallas swept Minny in '02 KG wasn't even willing to guard Dirk by the end of the series he was getting worked so bad.And Dirk was getting shut down by Udonis Haslem in the finals. His offense is vastly overrated.

I can also make dumb conclusions off of one series too.