Bill Russell has 11 rings, why is he not the GOAT?

[TheCorporation]

We all know 5 beats 3, just like 11 beats 6 :pimp: However, we also know Bill Russell has 11 rings but is not considered the GOAT by most.

Why is this? The same reason Jordan has 6 and is not considered the GOAT

Competition matters.

LeBron James is the GOAT because no superstar has beaten better competition.

2012 Thunder: KD + Westbrook + Harden + Ibaka
2013 Spurs: Kawhi + Duncan + Parker + Ginobli + Pop
2016 Warriors: Curry + Draymond + Igoudola + Klay

Has Jordan even beaten ONE team better than any of these three?

Hint: Nope

Russell has more rings! [STATS]!
LeBron has more stats [RINGS]!

https://i.postimg.cc/c1vf0kqv/mjstats.jpg

[Mask the Embiid]

He played against farmers,milkmen, and plumbers.....


Jordan played against car mechanics and substitute teachers..


Mechanics > Plumbers in terms of athletic ability

Fixing a muffler > unclogging a toilet

Teaching a class > remembering what houses are on your milk delivery route

[StrongLurk]

MJ is goat because MJ was the best player ever.

Rings only matter for coaches to keep their jobs longer.

[Stephonit]

Bill Russell is the greatest player. Who are the ones who say different? Those who didn't witness him play or those who are selling you something.

[TheCorporation]

He played against farmers,milkmen, and plumbers.....


Jordan played against car mechanics and substitute teachers..


Mechanics > Plumbers in terms of athletic ability

Fixing a muffler > unclogging a toilet

Teaching a class > remembering what houses are on your milk delivery route

Great point, Jordan's resume is impressive, having built up a nice collection of accolades against feared rivals such as the New York auto mechanics and the Cleveland Muffler boys.

He was impressive. For the 90s.

Fast forward to today's modern, advanced league and he would be a slightly more athletic DeMar Derozan. Which is fine. DeMar is a good player. But he is nothing special.

[TheCorporation]

MJ is goat because MJ was the best player ever.

Rings only matter for coaches to keep their jobs longer.

Less rings than Russell
Less stats than LeBron
Weaker competition than both
Better teammates than both

Sorry, I'm not buying it

[StrongLurk]

Less rings than Russell
Less stats than LeBron
Weaker competition than both
Better teammates than both

Sorry, I'm not buying it

MJ's basic stats/advanced stats are definitely better than Lebron's.

Like that's an actual fact.

[TheCorporation]

MJ's basic stats/advanced stats are definitely better than Lebron's.

Like that's an actual fact.

Competition?

[egokiller]

Bill Russell has 11 rings, why is he not the GOAT?

Russell cannot be considered in the elite because although he won multiple times and excelled at defense, he was not dominant offensively. Furthermore, if his game was translated into today (10 ppg, 12-13 rpg, and 3 bpg

[AirFederer]

3/9

[warriorfan]

Op is autistic

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/c1vf0kqv/mjstats.jpg

[TheCorporation]

3/9

Ahh, so you went [RINGS]! I thought you might. Well I go STATS with LBJ and win again.

Russell has more rings. [STATS]!
LeBron has more stats. [RINGS]!

https://i.postimg.cc/c1vf0kqv/mjstats.jpg

Yikes Jordan fans...

[3ball]

We all know 5 beats 3, just like 11 beats 6 :pimp: However, we also know Bill Russell has 11 rings but is not considered the GOAT by most.

Why is this? The same reason Jordan has 6 and is not considered the GOAT


Only 2-way players are considered for goat

Russell wasn't an offensive player and was 4th option





Competition matters.

LeBron James is the GOAT because no superstar has beaten better competition.

2012 Thunder: KD + Westbrook + Harden + Ibaka
2013 Spurs: Kawhi + Duncan + Parker + Ginobli + Pop
2016 Warriors: Curry + Draymond + Igoudola + Klay

Has Jordan even beaten ONE team better than any of these three?

Hint: Nope
Sorry, but Curry/Klay/Dray weren't a juggernaut big 3 and easily beatable in the playoffs

The Bad Boys, Shaq/Penny, the 90's Knicks, 98' Pacers, 98' Jazz, 96' Sonics, 93' Suns and 91' Lakers are equal or better than the 3 teams you listed above

Malone/Stockton/Hornacek would beat old Duncan/Parker/Ginobili worse than they beat young Duncan and DR in 98'..... and Kawhi was just a 12 ppg player until lebron let him go off

Ultimately, it was 3-4 Spurs teams playing each other in the 90's west (parity), hence them taking turns losing to MJ in the Finals.

The only reason the recent Spurs had higher net efficiency was because they faced weaker comp than the stacked 90's west

So all of MJ's wins except 92' was like beating the equivalent of a Spurs-level team... He would smash the Spurs.. 3-0 in Lebron's shoes

And look at the 2 times MJ faced Duncan in 98' - dominated him, won without pippen.. sure Duncan was only the most prepared rookie ever

[And1AllDay]

Ahh, so you went [RINGS]! I thought you might. Well I go STATS with LBJ and win again.

Russell has more rings. [STATS]!
LeBron has more stats. [RINGS]!

https://i.postimg.cc/c1vf0kqv/mjstats.jpg

Yikes Jordan fans...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
MJ has better stats

Career totals are for dummies

MJ owns the raw stats (only player above 30/5/5 for RS, PO, Finals)

and advanced (only MJ is top 2 in VORP/BPM/PER/WS/48, and he set record for plus-minus)

Lebron has no case; career totals mean nothing except longevity

[And1AllDay]

MJ has better stats

Career totals are for dummies

MJ owns the raw stats (only player above 30/5/5 for RS, PO, Finals)

and advanced (only MJ is top 2 in VORP/BPM/PER/WS/48, and he set record for plus-minus)

Lebron has no case; career totals mean nothing except longevity

BRUH please we see who is in the 6k club and who has most playoff game winners, triple doubles, elim game points, buzzer beaters, points, steals we can see it all man. Mike is #2 in stats we already know why cant you excpet it ???

[And1AllDay]

Ahh, so you went [RINGS]! I thought you might. Well I go STATS with LBJ and win again.

Russell has more rings. [STATS]!
LeBron has more stats. [RINGS]!

https://i.postimg.cc/c1vf0kqv/mjstats.jpg

Yikes Jordan fans...

:eek: Oh my

[FireDavidKahn]

He played against farmers,milkmen, and plumbers.....


Jordan played against car mechanics and substitute teachers..


Mechanics > Plumbers in terms of athletic ability

Fixing a muffler > unclogging a toilet

Teaching a class > remembering what houses are on your milk delivery route
Furthermore he absolutely spanked Wilt in nearly every play off series that they matched up.

[3ball]

BRUH please we see who is in the 6k club and who has most playoff game winners, triple doubles, elim game points, buzzer beaters, points, steals we can see it all man. Mike is #2 in stats we already know why cant you excpet it ???

Ultimately, career totals are for dummies

MJ owns the raw stats (only player above 30/5/5 for RS, PO, Finals)

and advanced (only MJ is top 2 in VORP/BPM/PER/WS/48, and he set record for plus-minus)

Lebron has no case; career totals mean nothing except longevity

[Andrei89]

Competition?

Stop your trolling already. The 90s was filled with All Time Greats and you know it.

[And1AllDay]

Furthermore he absolutely spanked Wilt in nearly every play off series that they matched up.

Good call how did Mike stack up against Bird and Isiah?

[And1AllDay]

Career totals are for dummies

MJ owns the raw stats (only player above 30/5/5 for RS, PO, Finals)

and advanced (only MJ is top 2 in VORP/BPM/PER/WS/48, and he set record for plus-minus)

Lebron has no case; career totals mean nothing except longevity

Yeah bruh suddenly totals mean nothing when you got three 1st round sweeps under your resume :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

Yeah bruh suddenly totals mean nothing when you got three 1st round sweeps under your resume :roll: :roll:
MJ averaged 5 more points in the playoffs on better efficiency per possession

Do you know how much more dominant lebron would be if he did that?... :biggums: :facepalm

And lebron missed the playoffs twice, so both guys sucked at carrying teams their first couple years

[Cali Syndicate]

He wasnt the best overall player as MJ, Kareem, or Lebron.

So MJ is knocked for having Pippen on his team, but ignore that Russel had the easily the best talent around him during his era. Cool. This is why lebron stans are the worst

[AirBonner]

It

[AirBonner]

He wasnt the best overall player as MJ, Kareem, or Lebron.

So MJ is knocked for having Pippen on his team, but ignore that Russel had the easily the best talent around him during his era. Cool. This is why lebron stans are the worst
Russell was on

[3ball]

The reality is Russell defeated a arguably top 5 player in Wilt 11 times :eek: who the hell did Jordan defeat? :oldlol:


He swept the modern Wilt (Shaq)

And beat Magic

That's two top 5 guys

Then he beat a plethora of top 30 guys like Isiah, Malone, Barkley, Stockton, Ewing, Payton, Dominique, and more

That's more than anyone tbh

[Ben Simmons 25]

OP YOUR QUESTION IS GARBAGE AND INVALID BECAUSE BILL RUSSELL ALREADY IS THE GOAT!

[AirBonner]

He swept the modern Wilt (Shaq)

And beat Magic

That's two top 5 guys

Then he beat a plethora of top 30 guys like Isiah, Malone, Barkley, Stockton, Ewing, Payton, Dominique, and more

That's more than anyone tbh
That would be impressive if those guys were top 5 material and Jordan did it 11 times

[AirBonner]

How many times?

[tontoz]

Back in the early 60s there were only 9 teams. :lol

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1962.html

[3ball]

That would be impressive if those guys were top 5 material and Jordan did it 11 times
Only 2-way players with winning AND stats can be goat

Russell isn't goat because he's a 1-way player without the stats

[AirBonner]

Back in the early 60s there were only 9 teams. :lol

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1962.html
Concentrated talent

[bullettooth]

https://i.postimg.cc/PrQwMkZS/lebron-stats-or-rings.gif

[AirBonner]

Only 2-way players with both winning AND stats can be goat

Russell isn't goat because he's a 1-way player without the stats
How many 20 + rebound games does Jordan have?

[3ball]

https://i.postimg.cc/PrQwMkZS/lebron-stats-or-rings.gif
And lebron doesn't have either

Insufficient rings, and 5 less points in the playoffs on worse efficiency per possession

Obviously, lebron would be much more dominant with 5 more points on better efficiency

And less offensive rebounds, spg, FT %, defense, and no clutch shots on the championship level..

he simply falls way short

[3ball]

How many 20 + rebound games does Jordan have?
Who cares

Only 2-way players can be goat

Guys like Russell and Mutombo must be ranked lower

Heck, even i wouldn't rate draymond over bronbron

[AirBonner]

Russell was not only a better defender than Jordan but he was a bigger IMPACT player. Celtics went from a championship team to a lottery team when he retired

[bullettooth]

Russell was not only a better defender than Jordan but he was a bigger IMPACT player. Celtics went from a championship team to a lottery team when he retired

If Jordan played against plumbers... what was Russell's competition like?

[Bronbron23]

Bill Russell has every right to be considered the goat. I've never seen him or Kareem play but I have no problem with people saying either is the goat.

[3ball]

Russell was not only a better defender than Jordan but he was a bigger IMPACT player. Celtics went from a championship team to a lottery team when he retired
Those 69' celtics lost 2 HOF's, not just Russell

That's no different than the 99' bulls declining after mj/pippen.. except russell was 7th option and averaged 9 ppg in his last season, while MJ was MVP and won all the awards

We never got to see mj's impact on his pre-champion rosters, which were still developing players/teamwork, and would've fallen off a cliff without MJ

i.e. in 89', the bulls won 47 games but would've badly missed the 45-win playoff cut without mj's 33/8/8
.

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/PrQwMkZS/lebron-stats-or-rings.gif

Thanks for this

Russell has more rings.
Jordan stans: [STATS]!

LeBron has more stats.
Jordan stans: [RINGS]!

Uh oh

https://i.postimg.cc/c1vf0kqv/mjstats.jpg

[Cali Syndicate]

[QUOTE=AirBonner]Russell was on

[Cali Syndicate]

BRUH please we see who is in the 6k club and who has most playoff game winners, triple doubles, elim game points, buzzer beaters, points, steals we can see it all man. Mike is #2 in stats we already know why cant you excpet it ???

Per games played, MJ's playoff stats are superior. Not to mention, my played his career with early playoff series as best of 5

[tontoz]

Celtics went from a championship team to a lottery team when he (and Sam Jones) retired

FYP

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Russell cannot be considered in the elite because although he won multiple times and excelled at defense, he was not dominant offensively. Furthermore, if his game was translated into today (10 ppg, 12-13 rpg, and 3 bpg—numbers similar to Dikembe Mutombo’s career), overall Bill Russell would not have the same effect on the league.

The fairest way to rank NBA players is to consider their overall game—both offensively and defensively, championships won, and the ability to play in any era and still dominate. The best players can dominate both ends of the court and win multiple championships (to prove that winning the first time wasn’t a fluke).

15.1 ppg while making 44% of his field goals and 56% of his free throws.

Russell played in an era where there were fewer NBA teams—about 10. While some may argue that each team had more concentrated talent, the level of talent does not compare to that of today’s game.

In addition to having fewer teams, there were fewer playoff rounds and the top teams (like the Celtics) often got first round byes. Whereas Jordan and Magic had to win 15 playoff games to win a title (and often play upwards of 20 games or more), Russell played between 10 and 14 games to win each of his first eight championships.

Russell’s teams also were stacked with future Hall of Famers and All-Stars, including John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, KC Jones, and Bill Sharman. The Celtics teams had far superior talent overall than any other team during his era. And despite all of this talent, Boston barely beat the Lakers in three separate finals, each in seven games.



Yep, Bill Russell's career 15.1 PPG on 44% shooting - not great for a big man. Also only 14k career points - around Mike Bibby level.
He had the greatest legacy TEAM around him - with the 62-63 Celtics having NINE (9) Hall of Fame players on that team.
So it's a combination of championships AND stats. Bill has the rings but not the stats. Lebron has the stats but not the rings (like Wilt).


Michael has both.

[TheCorporation]

Dilemma time

https://i.postimg.cc/y8YXwmHj/1550957224619.jpg

[3ball]

Dilemma time

https://i.postimg.cc/y8YXwmHj/1550957224619.jpg
If you aren't a 2-way player, aren't the #1 option (or even #4), and didn't play in the post ABA merger or with a 3-point line (modern era), you can't be goat

MJ was an all-time 2-way player with goat stats and winning in the modern era - that's why he's the consensus goat

[LostCause]

Russell has an argument for GOAT. Ultimate winner in team sports, that can't be debated

LeBron doesn't have the winning/rings argument nor the stats argument against Jordan though. So it's pretty clear

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Russell has an argument for GOAT. Ultimate winner in team sports, that can't be debated

LeBron doesn't have the winning/rings argument nor the stats argument against Jordan though. So it's pretty clear
This, Russell has a weak argument but it's there. Same for Kareem, weak arguments but mostly foolish. Jordan was straight up better and has a similar resume

LeBron has no argument. Jordan has better numbers despite playing off ball and stat padding less, was far better defensively, and dominated in the playoffs in ways LeBron never did.

[eliteballer]

Because his greatest rival was clearly a better player?

[knicksman]

coz if you choose between the 2, who would you build around?

But i would rather build around russell than lebron tho. Thats why bron has no chance.

[And1AllDay]

If you aren't a 2-way player, aren't the #1 option (or even #4), and didn't play in the post ABA merger or with a 3-point line (modern era), you can't be goat

MJ was an all-time 2-way player with goat stats and winning in the modern era - that's why he's the consensus goat

Rings or stats?

You say rings I go Russell
You say stats I go LeBron

Mike is #2 again :confusedshrug:

[knicksman]

Rings or stats?

You say rings I go Russell
You say stats I go LeBron

Mike is #2 again :confusedshrug:

winners/alphas will always choose rings baby. So russell have more of an argument than lebron. 3/9 while ringchasing just doesnt pass our standards. Sorry.

[And1AllDay]

winners/alphas will always choose rings baby. So russell have more of an argument than lebron. 3/9 while ringchasing just doesnt pass our standards. Sorry.

Got it, so Pippen 6 = Jordan 6 , they are equal cool

Fisher has 5 so he is only one step below Jordan
Horry has 7 so he is one step above Jordan

Cool rating system bro :cheers:

[knicksman]

Got it, so Pippen 6 = Jordan 6 , they are equal cool

Fisher has 5 so he is only one step below Jordan
Horry has 7 so he is one step above Jordan

Cool rating system bro :cheers:

Sorry brah. But it is what it is. Alphas just dont respect ringchasers/cowards. Alphas want to be "the man" not "the woman"

[Manny98]

winners/alphas will always choose rings baby. So russell have more of an argument than lebron. 3/9 while ringchasing just doesnt pass our standards. Sorry.
No Russell is the automatic GOAT if you choose rings

LeBron is the GOAT if you choose stats and individual performance

And Kareem is the GOAT if you value both winning and stats

[And1AllDay]

Sorry brah. But it is what it is. Alphas just dont respect ringchasers/cowards. Alphas want to be "the man" not "the woman"

Horry > Jordan

Cool rating system bro :cheers:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Because there was only eight teams, territorial drafts, played with a litany of Hall of Famers, usually wasn’t even the best player on the offensive side of the ball, and the game was in its infancy stages. Pre-merger. Barely any racial integration even. With that said he’s the GOAT of that era.

[knicksman]

Horry > Jordan

Cool rating system bro :cheers:

I know it sucks for you brah that your guy isnt respected by us alphas. But it is what it is brah. Not everyone are cheapskates.

[Manny98]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Because there was only eight teams, territorial drafts, played with a litany of Hall of Famers, usually wasn

[Manny98]

I know it sucks for you brah that your guy isnt respected by us alphas. But it is what it is brah. Not everyone are cheapskates.
Imagine having an alt called Knickswoman and proclaiming to be an alpha on the Internet :roll:

[Leviathon1121]

Lebron will never be considered the consensus GOAT, no amount of memes is going to change that, and it just TEARS some of you up. :oldlol:

[knicksman]

Imagine having an alt called Knickswoman and proclaiming to be an alpha on the Internet :roll:

manny, you really dont know what alpha is?

[SamuraiSWISH]

And Jordan was never the best player on the defensive side of the ball it was always Pippen :confusedshrug:
That isn’t true either.

Jordan was easily the Bulls best defender from 1985 through the 1993 season. Then it was arguable either way in 1996 in 1997.

And in 1998? It was Jordan. Scottie missed half of the season with his selfish agenda.

At worst it was arguable. And he was easily the best player on offense. Being the goat is the combination of everything. Individual dominance in a team sport leading to WINS. That’s the point. It’s a balancing act.

Scottie never won a defensive player of the year award. Let alone while also being the league leading scorer and MVP.

[Gotterdammerung]

Probably posted on this subject a number of times already. :oldlol:

But Bill Russell had the greatest career in NBA history because of a number of things: he was devoted to winning above everything else. Beyond ego, beyond statistics, beyond the usual traits we attribute to the greatest players of all time. While he did play on a loaded roster masterminded by the best coach of the era, he was the key to their five man break and that ferocious defense, as well as relentless rebounding. He was the most intelligent player of his era.

Other players might have been better at several things, like Wilt and Jordan at scoring, or Magic and Oscar at passing, Rodman at rebounding, etc., none of them were as obsessed with winning as Bill mothafukkin Russell.
:cheers:

[ClipperRevival]

I'm not going to disrespect Russell. He was a straight killer just like MJ. I respect him immensely. But he was dominant on only 1 end of the court. Russell never had to carry the BURDEN of MJ by averaging 30+ PPG every game while being one of the best defenders ever. Russell had other guys who carried the O load. You can't ignore this simple fact. Bball is played on 2 ends. Always has been, always will. Being dominant on both ends carries much more weight.

[Dray n Klay]

I'm not going to disrespect Russell. He was a straight killer just like MJ. I respect him immensely. But he was dominant on only 1 end of the court.

Same with Jordan

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm not going to disrespect Russell. He was a straight killer just like MJ. I respect him immensely. But he was dominant on only 1 end of the court. Russell never had to carry the BURDEN of MJ by averaging 30+ PPG every game while being one of the best defenders ever. Russell had other guys who carried the O load. You can't ignore this simple fact. Bball is played on 2 ends. Always has been, always will. Being dominant on both ends carries much more weight.

Quite so.

Then again, it's possible that had Jordan been more obsessed with winning than scoring titles, he might have won more than six titles.

[Overdrive]

Lebron can't be GOAT, because of '11. Neither Russell nor Jordan shrunk like that wjen they were close to winning. They' re like sharks, they smell blood, they kill.



Ahh, so you went [RINGS]! I thought you might. Well I go STATS with LBJ and win again.

Russell has more rings. [STATS]!
LeBron has more stats. [RINGS]!

https://i.postimg.cc/c1vf0kqv/mjstats.jpg

Yikes Jordan fans...

What's the argument for Lebron being GOAT then?

Before you bring anything up: No matter what there's no criteria you can use that won't lead to counter argument that will put atleast one of Jordan, Wilt, Russell or KAJ ahead. Lebron at best will always be 2nd. Something he's been used to for 8 years now.

[ClipperRevival]

Quite so.

Then again, it's possible that had Jordan been more obsessed with winning than scoring titles, he might have won more than six titles.

What year? MJ always won when he was expected too. He might have 7 rings if Pip didn't sh*t the bed with one of the worst games every by a "star" in a game 7 when he scored 2 points on 1-10 in the "migraine" game. Any other years, he had inferior help against the GOAT tier level Pistons (1988 and 1989), GOAT tier level Celtics (1986 and 1987) and a very talented team in the Bucks (1985, MJs' s rookie year).

[SamuraiSWISH]

What year? MJ always won when he was expected too. He might have 7 rings if Pip didn't sh*t the bed with one of the worst games every by a "star" in a game 7 when he scored 2 points on 1-10 in the "migraine" game. Any other years, he had inferior help against the GOAT tier level Pistons (1988 and 1989), GOAT tier level Celtics (1986 and 1987) and a very talented team in the Bucks (1985, MJs' s rookie year).
Probably would

[Dray n Klay]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Probably would

[SamuraiSWISH]

Same with Jordan
:biggums:

5x MVP
10x Scoring Champ

1988 DPOY
3x Steals Leader
9x NBA All First Team Defense


Could've, would've, should've


Jordan's career summarized
The 6 rings and 6 Fmvps are factual reality.

Your boy is 3 for 9 with 3 Fmvps, 2 of which were fluky or circumstantial and he’s played in 3 more seasons than Jordan did for Chicago. 5 if you count the ridiculously shortened seasons of 86 and 95.

:facepalm

[305Baller]

It's hard to compare eras. If you take a lot of stock in the golden age Russell has to be seen as top 3 at the least and GOAT at best.

[Dray n Klay]

:biggums:


5x MVP
10x Scoring Champ

1988 DPOY
3x Steals Leader
9x NBA All First Team Defense

0 playoff series wins without Pippen
Lost with an all-star teamate in 1990 and 1995
Missed playoffs in Year 14
Missed playoffs in Year 15

1-9

[brutalBBQ]

0 playoff series wins without Pippen
Lost with an all-star teamate in 1990 and 1995
Missed playoffs in Year 14
Missed playoffs in Year 15

1-9

Lebrat didn't even make the playoffs in his 1st two season's
They've both had 13 Playoff runs , the rest is history.
Did MJ quit the Bulls to join the Badboys?

And as for playing on Team USA Lebronze has 2 of those medals, MJ has nothing but golds.

There's a reason Lebald starts with an L,

[AussieSteve]

He played against farmers,milkmen, and plumbers.....


Jordan played against car mechanics and substitute teachers..


Mechanics > Plumbers in terms of athletic ability

Fixing a muffler > unclogging a toilet

Teaching a class > remembering what houses are on your milk delivery route

Every player in the nba and making sh!toads by the late 80s.

Jordan played against full time professional athletes.

[TheCorporation]

Imagine having an alt called Knickswoman and proclaiming to be an alpha on the Internet :roll:

:lol :lol :lol

[TheCorporation]

Dilemma time

https://i.postimg.cc/y8YXwmHj/1550957224619.jpg


Anyone know?

[Carbine]

It's always amusing to me reading Bill Russell threads.

How many of these 9 HOF players would be in the HOF without the association with the Celtics?

I think half of those hall of fame teammates, probably more would say to a man Russell is the reason they're in the HOF.

[Round Mound]

I was never a Jordan fan i actually hated and sometimes still hate (a little) his fan boys. I was more of a Barkley (ofcourse), Bird and Magic fan (fan of the multipositional skills like that of even Lebron) but to say Jordan is no the best ever is stupid. Watch his games and he has no parallel. Jordan is the goat.

[TheCorporation]

I was never a Jordan fan i actually hated and sometimes still hate (a little) his fan boys. I was more of a Barkley (ofcourse), Bird and Magic fan (fan of the multipositional skills like that of even Lebron) but to say Jordan is no the best ever is stupid. Watch his games and he has no parallel. Jordan is the goat.
With or without Pippen?

Care to search his 5 year resume sans Pippen?

[Round Mound]

With or without Pippen?

Care to search his 5 year resume sans Pippen?

I started watching the NBA regularly from 1991 onwards. So i did not see Jordan in the 80s much but starting his career he did not have a great team built around him. When Pippen and Grant came along they slowly started to build a team around Jordan and when Pippen became an All Star they won everything in the 90s. Pippen is an all time great player despite the fact some will underrate him for not being the shooter or scorer the 1st options usually are (in everything else he was top notch). Jordan had it too tough in the 80s when he had to face: Bird-McHale-Parish-DJ-Ainge & Walton or Kareem-Magic-Worthy-Nixon-Mcadoo-Cooper-Scott and or Isiah-Dumars-Dantley or Aguirre-Laimbeer-Rodman-Mahorn-Salley etc of etc The 80s was just too tough and there was less teams so better players played per team. Jordad had less offensive help than Lebron did but Jordan did have better defensive help than Lebron especially in his 2nd Three-Peat but none can compare to 1st Three-Peat Jordan: he was insane in his peak and prime. Jordan was better than Lebron in terms of dominance, efficiency, defense and clutchness. Lebron was the more verstaile player though and had more multipositional skills but he was no MJ in the clutch. Lebron is a scoring version of Pippen with less defense but more complete.

[Axe]

**Now he digs his very own thread from 2019? Hmm... 🤔

[DoctorP]

We all know 5 beats 3, just like 11 beats 6 However, we also know Bill Russell has 11 rings but is not considered the GOAT by most.

Why is this? The same reason Jordan has 6 and is not considered the GOAT

Competition matters.

LeBron James is the GOAT because no superstar has beaten better competition.

2012 Thunder: KD + Westbrook + Harden + Ibaka
2013 Spurs: Kawhi + Duncan + Parker + Ginobli + Pop
2016 Warriors: Curry + Draymond + Igoudola + Klay

Has Jordan even beaten ONE team better than any of these three?

Hint: Nope

Russell has more rings! [STATS]!
LeBron has more stats [RINGS]!

https://i.postimg.cc/c1vf0kqv/mjstats.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/20/2f/f5202faf5cf17f01b532642151ab6b60.gif

[86Celtics]

Anyone know?

Who said that Russell, the ultimate winner doesn't belong in the conversation about the best ever?

[superduper]

I started watching the NBA regularly from 1991 onwards. So i did not see Jordan in the 80s much but starting his career he did not have a great team built around him. When Pippen and Grant came along they slowly started to build a team around Jordan and when Pippen became an All Star they won everything in the 90s. Pippen is an all time great player despite the fact some will underrate him for not being the shooter or scorer the 1st options usually are (in everything else he was top notch). Jordan had it too tough in the 80s when he had to face: Bird-McHale-Parish-DJ-Ainge & Walton or Kareem-Magic-Worthy-Nixon-Mcadoo-Cooper-Scott and or Isiah-Dumars-Dantley or Aguirre-Laimbeer-Rodman-Mahorn-Salley etc of etc The 80s was just too tough and there was less teams so better players played per team. Jordad had less offensive help than Lebron did but Jordan did have better defensive help than Lebron especially in his 2nd Three-Peat but none can compare to 1st Three-Peat Jordan: he was insane in his peak and prime. Jordan was better than Lebron in terms of dominance, efficiency, defense and clutchness. Lebron was the more verstaile player though and had more multipositional skills but he was no MJ in the clutch. Lebron is a scoring version of Pippen with less defense but more complete.

Welp that idiot isn't going to be responding back to you since you started to discuss actual basketball :oldlol:

[nayte]

Cause Jordan is better.end thread

[fourkicks44]

White boys league.

[nayte]

I already said cause Jordan was better. End the damn thread

[3ball]

Before the 3-point line was instituted, good team offense/high team ORtg's were impossible/didn't occur, so a 1-way defender like Russell won the most.

But since the inception of the 3-point line, good team offense occurred and all 40 MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so we know Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber today.

Accordingly, MJ's 6 rings as the best player is the goat modern accomplishment - that's twice as many "best player" rings as anyone else in the modern era/3-pointer basketball (you could argue Duncan has 4)

Hope that helps.. MJ is by far the goat winner of the modern era (where offense matters and can win)

[Carbine]

Judging Russell by today's standards is pretty dumb.

He dominated basketball in its purest form, the way the inventor imagined the layout of the court.

Who knows what Russell would become if he grew up in the 2020s. He wouldn't be the same Russell we know now that's for sure. His skill set would be entirely different.

It's all speculation. We have to judge him on what did during his era, which of course makes him a GOAT candidate. He's by far the most accomplished of his era, so he's in the discussion with the guys after him who dominated their eras in a similar fashion.

[Carbine]

Also, "You could argue Duncan has four"

There is no argument. Duncan was not a second fiddle to Tony Parker in 2007. That's just absurd revisionist history

[3ball]

Judging Russell by today's standards is pretty dumb.

He dominated basketball in its purest form, the way the inventor imagined the layout of the court.

Who knows what Russell would become if he grew up in the 2020s. He wouldn't be the same Russell we know now that's for sure. His skill set would be entirely different.

It's all speculation. We have to judge him on what did during his era, which of course makes him a GOAT candidate. He's by far the most accomplished of his era, so he's in the discussion with the guys after him who dominated their eras in a similar fashion.
there were great individual offensive players back then, yet Russell wasn't one of them

so his skillset wouldn't be different today - he'd be Ben wallace

[3ball]

Also, "You could argue Duncan has four"

There is no argument. Duncan was not a second fiddle to Tony Parker in 2007. That's just absurd revisionist history
that's all you disagree with in my post, so you agree with everything I said . kudos for having a brain

[tpols]

there were great individual offensive players back then, yet Russell wasn't one of them

so his skillset wouldn't be different today - he'd be Ben wallace

and he... dominated them.

comparing him to ben wallace is bullshit right off the bat just watching his ability to pass, catch and dribble.

Hes more like a bigger tougher KG, with slightly less scoring ability.

[3ball]

and he... dominated them.

comparing him to ben wallace is bullshit right off the bat just watching his ability to pass, catch and dribble.

Hes more like a bigger tougher KG, with slightly less scoring ability.
Russell dominated the glass, not offensively

he won Finals by averaging 9 and 13 ppg

and he was 6'9", while KG was 7'0".. where did you get the idea he was bigger than KG.. and he was nowhere near the scorer KG was

you guys are delusional.. Russell had 9 HOF teammates - all the HOF's in the league were on his team .

and tbh, he got a lot of props from the "surprise" factor - people were surprised that he was so likeable and such a good leader as a black man on a mostly white team/league, that he's revered more than his actual play deserved.. similar to Derek Jeter or Jackie Robinson

wilt routinely dropped 50 on him.. Russell didn't "dominate" him defensively, and didn't dominate ANYONE offensively, where he sucked.. he was only a tad better offensively than Draymond, and maybe one level up from Wallace

finally, he wouldn't be MVP-caliber today, since that requires offensive domination

carry on

[tpols]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtIdrLDWIAAcGmb.jpg

and thats an old man, likely shrunk a couple inches.

Russell did battle with the biggest behemoth to ever grace the NBA... Wilt mother****ing Chamberlain. And came out on top.

While Garnett had to skirt a C title due to his relative fragility.

:confusedshrug:

Russell,, looking at maybe... 5 minutes of game tape was a far more fluid and impactful part of his teams offense than ben wallace.

[HylianNightmare]

If someone starts their GOATt list with bill I'm super excited for that argument

[86Celtics]

Russell dominated the glass, not offensively

he won Finals by averaging 9 and 13 ppg

and he was 6'9", while KG was 7'0".. where did you get the idea he was bigger than KG.. and he was nowhere near the scorer KG was

you guys are delusional.. Russell had 9 HOF teammates - all the HOF's in the league were on his team .

and tbh, he got a lot of props from the "surprise" factor - people were surprised that he was so likeable and such a good leader as a black man on a mostly white team/league, that he's revered more than his actual play deserved.. similar to Derek Jeter or Jackie Robinson

wilt routinely dropped 50 on him.. Russell didn't "dominate" him defensively, and didn't dominate ANYONE offensively, where he sucked.. he was only a tad better offensively than Draymond, and maybe one level up from Wallace

finally, he wouldn't be MVP-caliber today, since that requires offensive domination

carry on

Ben Wallace, "surprise" factor, couldn't dominate. And yet he was his team best player on the way to 11 NBA championships.

You are beyond pathetic.

[Drygon]

Robert Horry > Michael Jordan

7 rings > 6 rings

[Axe]

Robert Horry > Michael Jordan

7 rings > 6 rings
That also means that he's better than Kobe Bryant or Lebron James too.

7 rings > 5 or 3 rings

[3ball]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtIdrLDWIAAcGmb.jpg

and thats an old man, likely shrunk a couple inches.

Russell did battle with the biggest behemoth to ever grace the NBA... Wilt mother****ing Chamberlain. And came out on top.

While Garnett had to skirt a C title due to his relative fragility.

:confusedshrug:

Russell,, looking at maybe... 5 minutes of game tape was a far more fluid and impactful part of his teams offense than ben wallace.
If a team had 10 all-stars on it, should they be expected to win the title?

How about 10 all-stars in an 8 team league, so 10% of the league.

Now what if it were 10 HOF instead of just all-stars?

You guys get your head out of your ass trying to act like he did what other greats did

Russell wasn't an offensive player and looked like a beginner dribbling the ball - I'm only stating obvious, observable fact.

And he didn't come out "on top" against Wilt - he got ridiculously outplayed but his team won because they were an all-star team..

It wasn't like MJ winning and outplaying his opponent.. Russell was destroyed by Wilt statistically but won because his cast was the best ever, by far - no one had such a high proportion of the league's good players.. It was Wilt and his 89' Bulls or 15' Cavs against the dynasty champs every year - and yet Russell still managed to lose a few times.. He couldn't take over when it mattered to ensure victory like the modern era goat... And you know all this already

And again, kg was bigger then Russell and a far superior offensive player

[jbryan1984]

I don't need to read the rest of the threads to say a different variation of, it was just a different time.

[Hittin_Shots]

Great point, Jordan's resume is impressive, having built up a nice collection of accolades against feared rivals such as the New York auto mechanics and the Cleveland Muffler boys.

He was impressive. For the 90s.

Fast forward to today's modern, advanced league and he would be a slightly more athletic DeMar Derozan. Which is fine. DeMar is a good player. But he is nothing special.

Jordan would destroy this current league defence.

[Cleverness]

Because Michael Jordan is the GOAT

/thread

[Carbine]

For someone who "sucked" on offense.....

Bill in quite a few of his career defining type games.....


He put up 20/32 as a rookie in game 7 of the finals. Not so bad.


22/35 in game 7 of another NBA finals.

30/38 in a closeout game for another title.

30/40 game 7 NBA finals win the following year

20/24 in game 7 the next year

23/30 to closeout another title

25/32 in another finals game 7

Not bad for someone who sucked on offense.

[superduper]

OP getting absolutely shit on :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

Rings: Russell
Stats: LeBron

Is MJ top 3?

[Psileas]

Because big men never sell as well as smalls and GOAT rankins are increasingly correlated with marketing. Every country that has its GOAT small guy dominate anywhere near as much as its GOAT big guy, even if the small guy played in an older era and/or a weaker league, has fans declare the small guy as its GOAT.
It never was a matter of rings, despite NBA fans in the last decades trying to make such a claim for supposed legitimacy reasons. Jordan had been called the GOAT since the time he had only 1-2 rings, which, career-wise, was obviously utter bullshit, since Jordan had clearly not yet achieved enough throughout 7-8 years to overcome the careers of Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic or, arguably, Bird. Yet, he was, for some reason, already the clearly most popular choice for GOAT once he got to 3 rings and, according to the same narrative, his comeback and 3 more titles was just him blowing the historical competition out of the water. Yeah, right. :facepalm

[Axe]

Yeah, just goes to show how stans behave similarly, like the ones who easily thought the warriors are already the best team of all time in the whole league since 2016 when they went 73-9 that season but then choked in the finals and after that, they even just concluded moreso as that team became a renowned dynasty recently the moment durant joined them the same year. Painfully ridiculous, isn't it? Though it shouldn't be surprising to all of us when we see it so you shouldn't make a big deal out of this stuff. 🤦

[warriorfan]

For someone who "sucked" on offense.....

Bill in quite a few of his career defining type games.....


He put up 20/32 as a rookie in game 7 of the finals. Not so bad.


22/35 in game 7 of another NBA finals.

30/38 in a closeout game for another title.

30/40 game 7 NBA finals win the following year

20/24 in game 7 the next year

23/30 to closeout another title

25/32 in another finals game 7

Not bad for someone who sucked on offense.

Extremely high Pace inflates those numbers greatly.

[AirBonner]

Extremely high Pace inflates those numbers greatly.

Pretty sure the pace these past couple years matches or exceeds Russell’s era

[warriorfan]

Pretty sure the pace these past couple years matches or exceeds Russell’s era

Not even close. I’m estimating the fastest teams in the league today still play at least 20% slower than the league average in the 1960’s. You can tell by their insane rebound numbers that they had A LOT of possessions per game.

[FireDavidKahn]

Rings: Russell
Stats: LeBron

Is MJ top 3?

Only thing that MJ is the undisputed GOAT at is cheating at gambling.

[3ball]

Only thing that MJ is the undisputed GOAT at is cheating at gambling.
- twice as many "best player" rings in 3-pointer basketball as anyone else (6), except Duncan who has 4.. aka MJ was the GOAT winner of 3-pointer
basketball (2-way basketball)

- 6/6 in championship, aka GOAT team ceiling

- GOAT teammate maximization (6/6 with 1 hof teammate in 30-team league, versus Russell's 9 hof teammates in 8-team league, yet lost 2 times in Finals)

- GOAT fadeaway

- GOAT defender at position and likely in backcourt period

- GOAT mid-range jumpshooting, aka clutch jumpshooting

- GOAT post game for perimeter player

- GOAT hang-time

- GOAT 2-way leaper

- GOAT clutch player

- GOAT scorer

- GOAT drop-step for perimeter player

- GOAT richness and ownership for athlete

- GOAT brand

- GOAT carry-jobs (scoring champ for every title and 10-30 more than sidekick for every series)

- 47% on 3.6 attempts per game down the stretch of tight games (last 5 within 5) in 97' and 98' RS & PO (41% on 3.0 attempts for 04-19' Lebron)

- GOAT lean-in tomahawk jam

[AirBonner]

- twice as many "best player" rings in 3-pointer basketball as anyone else (6), except Duncan who has 4.. aka MJ was the GOAT winner of 3-pointer
basketball (2-way basketball)

- 6/6 in championship, aka GOAT team ceiling

- GOAT teammate maximization (6/6 with 1 hof teammate in 30-team league, versus Russell's 9 hof teammates in 8-team league, yet lost 2 times in Finals)

- GOAT fadeaway

- GOAT defender at position and likely in backcourt period

- GOAT mid-range jumpshooting, aka clutch jumpshooting

- GOAT post game for perimeter player

- GOAT hang-time

- GOAT 2-way leaper

- GOAT clutch player

- GOAT scorer

- GOAT drop-step for perimeter player

- GOAT richness and ownership for athlete

- GOAT brand

- GOAT carry-jobs (scoring champ for every title and 10-30 more than sidekick for every series)

- 47% on 3.6 attempts per game down the stretch of tight games (last 5 within 5) in 97' and 98' RS & PO (41% on 3.0 attempts for 04-19' Lebron)

- GOAT lean-in tomahawk jam

False. Zion is a greater leaper than MJ off one and two feet

[3ball]

False. Zion is a greater leaper than MJ off one and two feet
Nope. The double pump drastically decreases elevation, making the jump much harder. Advantage MJ.. MJ also jogged up to the line while dribbling.. and things like hang-time and quickness off feet further widen the goat's advantage

[AirBonner]

Nope. The double pump drastically decreases elevation, making the jump much harder. Advantage MJ.. MJ also jogged up to the line while dribbling.. and things like hang-time and quickness off feet further widen the goat's advantage

Too bad he didn’t have the length to get the job done

[TheCorporation]

Only thing that MJ is the undisputed GOAT at is cheating at gambling.

Goodness :eek:
Big facts

[mr4speed]

Judging Russell by today's standards is pretty dumb.

He dominated basketball in its purest form, the way the inventor imagined the layout of the court.

Who knows what Russell would become if he grew up in the 2020s. He wouldn't be the same Russell we know now that's for sure. His skill set would be entirely different.

It's all speculation. We have to judge him on what did during his era, which of course makes him a GOAT candidate. He's by far the most accomplished of his era, so he's in the discussion with the guys after him who dominated their eras in a similar fashion.

Excellent post - could not have said this any better! Why can we not appreciate greatness in a variety of players and ages? Because we feel the need to prop up our own favorite? It is ridiculous to think there is only 1 person or answer to the GOAT question - so we should give it a rest IMO.

[bizil]

Until Kareem built resume, Russell was regarded AS THE GOAT!!!! From a peak-prime level, Wilt was the man back in the day. BUT from a GOAT perspective, Russ was the GOAT. GOAT shit factors:

Solo accolades
Team Accolades
Peak-prime status
Longevity being great
Numbers
Impact on the league (redefining a position, rules change because of you, being a face of the league, etc.)

So GOAT is your overall resume. I just think in his era, Russ WASN'T the best player on a peak-prime level. For me, I would take Wilt, Big O, and Baylor over him. Some may even argue West and Petitt too. The reason why IS BECAUSE all those guys were better blends of scoring ability AND all around ability in one package. GOAT wise, Russ has the edge on all those guys though. BUT when it comes to MJ, Kareem, and Bron, those guys won big, have sick numbers across the board, were flat out the best player in their era, and were alpha dogs who could dominate scoring in ways Russ never could. But Russ OBVIOUSLY still has a great case for the GOAT Mt. Rushmore of hoops. I think MJ-Kareem-Bron-and either Russ or Magic is the Mt Rushmore!!

[bizil]

The thing about Red Auerbach was HE KNEW Russ's strengths. And MAXIMIZED THEM!!! If Wilt was on Boston in place of Russ, Red would have PLAYED THROUGH Wilt in a totally different manner!!! And Wilt would have been putting MUCH MORE impressive scoring numbers! And let's face it, Boston would have been EVEN MORE IMPRESSIVE!!!

The thing with Russ was it WASN'T about him scoring 30 PPG in general. BECAUSE on that Boston team he didn't need too. It's more of the fact that he WASN'T an alpha dog level scorer. Even with the touches he got, he only shot 44% from the field. In an era where the game was played inside-outside IF u had a dominant scoring interior presence. Once again, if Red had a Wilt, Boston would have played TOTALLY DIFFERENT! It would be more inside dominant TO OPEN UP their great interior players.

When u have the BEST PLAYER on the planet in Wilt, u build your offense AROUND HIM TO DOMINATE!!! If were are talking overall floor game (rebounding, defense, and passing as a package) then Russ doesn't take a backseat to ANY CENTER!!! But the most premium asset in hoops is alpha dog scoring. And Russ SIMPLY wasn't an alpha dog level scorer! In an era where the game was DESIGNED for dominant interior centers to dominate scoring!!!

[Carbine]

Wilt scores 6 more ppg in the playoffs than Russell. Isn't this correct? This isn't some huge gap.

Russell said it best and it holds true.

I will never distort your offense or your defense. The way I play, my team wins.

That's what he did. Win.

He won college titles. He left, they didn't win. Boston never made a final before he got there, when he left they became mediocre. They were the dynasty of all sports with him.

The only constant was Russell. He won without Cousy, without Red, without Hav, he was literally the only constant in this almost decade and a half of winning titles between college and the pros.

[warriorfan]

Wilt scores 6 more ppg in the playoffs than Russell. Isn't this correct? This isn't some huge gap.

Russell said it best and it holds true.

I will never distort your offense or your defense. The way I play, my team wins.

That's what he did. Win.

He won college titles. He left, they didn't win. Boston never made a final before he got there, when he left they became mediocre. They were the dynasty of all sports with him.

The only constant was Russell. He won without Cousy, without Red, without Hav, he was literally the only constant in this almost decade and a half of winning titles between college and the pros.

Wilt was more talented in the physical and skills aspect of the game. Where Russell was the undisputed master of the mind and mentality of winning, at a personal level and with resonating effects throughout his teams’ culture. I think the only other person to rival Bill Russell in this regard is Michael Jordan, and Russel may have even had a slight edge there. He was a cold and calculated killer when it came time to step onto the hardwood.

[Round Mound]

Russell is the goat defensive player.

[Naero]

He seriously might've been my GOAT if he were two-dimensionally elite.

While accolades are integral for ranking players—and Russell would have a panoply of them if Finals MVPs and DPoYs were inaugurated before his time—they don't outvalue a player's impact in the criteria, and Russell's offensive skillsets left too much to be desired on the GOAT scale. It's implausible enough to enter even the top ten if you're that inept on either end of the court, and Russell is an exception proving the rule because of his rings and GOAT defensive legacy.

Jordan, on the other hand, was elite enough at both as a player—not just an accolade-collector—and on the biggest stages to argue him over literally any other player in NBA history.

Many nonhistorians will always underrank Russell, however, because they're unlikely to credit him for his theoretical Finals MVPs and DPoYs (as I do)—and unfairly so, because those are staples of many other all-time-great legacies. When accounting for those, his trove trumps even Kareem's.

[NuggetsFan01]

Was it because he didn’t have a signature shoe?

[AlternativeAcc.]

Are people seriously comparing MJ (1-9) to the great Bill Russell? :lol :facepalm

This board has no shame.

[Axe]

Are people seriously comparing MJ (1-9) to the great Bill Russell? :lol :facepalm

This board has no shame.
You should have said this a year ago.

[3ball]

Are people seriously comparing MJ (1-9) to the great Bill Russell? :lol :facepalm

This board has no shame.
If a team had 10 all-stars, they would be expected to win every year?

So how about 10 HOF's? Because that's what Russell had - 9 HOF teammates in an 8-team league, while MJ had 1 in a 30-team league

But most importantly, good team offense didn't occur before the 3-point line, so a 1-way defender like Russell could win the most.. But since the 3-point line was instituted, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players, so we know Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber today.. Accordingly, MJ's 6 rings is the goat modern accomplishment (twice as many "best player" rings/fmvp's as anyone else in modern era)

[Carbine]

Let's not go that HOF route, Wilt played with a plethora of them in his time.

Guy Rodgers
Hal Greer
Jerry West
Baylor
Gola
Chet Walker
Al Attles
Paul Arizen
Cunningham
Thurmond
Goodrich


He played with 11 HOF'ers throughout his career.


He won 5 MVPs in 13 seasons in a league with Wilt and Oscar Robinson among others. The Finals MVP is named after him. When he played they didn't give out that trophy, but it's easy to think he would have 8-10 of those finals MVPs.

He played in TEN playoff game 7s in his career. You want to know the man's record in these games......

10-0

Unbeaten. He always won.

The point spread in 8 of those 10 games..... Celtics won by

Overtime, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5

Not like Bill won because he had such stacked teams that beat everyone by 15+ these games were extremely competitive right down to the wire.

10 times the dynasty could have been interrupted. It never happened.

When I see you type about HE HAD 9 HOF'ERS blah blah blah, it gives off the sense that they were just overly talented and nobody could even compete with them. Obviously those point spreads in the 10 dynasty defining games says otherwise.

[AirBonner]

Let's not go that HOF route, Wilt played with a plethora of them in his time.

Guy Rodgers
Hal Greer
Jerry West
Baylor
Gola
Chet Walker
Al Attles
Paul Arizen
Cunningham
Thurmond
Goodrich


He played with 11 HOF'ers throughout his career.


He won 5 MVPs in 13 seasons in a league with Wilt and Oscar Robinson among others. The Finals MVP is named after him. When he played they didn't give out that trophy, but it's easy to think he would have 8-10 of those finals MVPs.

He played in TEN playoff game 7s in his career. You want to know the man's record in these games......

10-0

Unbeaten. He always won.

The point spread in 8 of those 10 games..... Celtics won by

Overtime, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5

Not like Bill won because he had such stacked teams that beat everyone by 15+ these games were extremely competitive right down to the wire.

10 times the dynasty could have been interrupted. It never happened.

When I see you type about HE HAD 9 HOF'ERS blah blah blah, it gives off the sense that they were just overly talented and nobody could even compete with them. Obviously those point spreads in the 10 dynasty defining games says otherwise.
Bingo. They also didn’t do shit before or after he left the team. He was a player coach for 5 of those titles. Winning that many titles by such a slim margin means that the competition was equal.

[3ball]

Let's not go that HOF route, Wilt played with a plethora of them in his time.

Guy Rodgers
Hal Greer
Jerry West
Baylor
Gola
Chet Walker
Al Attles
Paul Arizen
Cunningham
Thurmond
Goodrich


He played with 11 HOF'ers throughout his career.


He won 5 MVPs in 13 seasons in a league with Wilt and Oscar Robinson among others. The Finals MVP is named after him. When he played they didn't give out that trophy, but it's easy to think he would have 8-10 of those finals MVPs.

He played in TEN playoff game 7s in his career. You want to know the man's record in these games......

10-0

Unbeaten. He always won.

The point spread in 8 of those 10 games..... Celtics won by

Overtime, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5

Not like Bill won because he had such stacked teams that beat everyone by 15+ these games were extremely competitive right down to the wire.

10 times the dynasty could have been interrupted. It never happened.

When I see you type about HE HAD 9 HOF'ERS blah blah blah, it gives off the sense that they were just overly talented and nobody could even compete with them. Obviously those point spreads in the 10 dynasty defining games says otherwise.
Russell won MVP's because prior to the 3-point line, good team offense/ortgs didn't occur, thus allowing a 1-way defender like Russell to win the most..

but since the 3-point line began, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so we know Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber today, which makes Jordan's 6 rings the goat accomplishment (twice as many "best player" rings/fmvp's as anyone else in 3-pointer basketball/modern era)

Also, Wilt's list of HOF's is from multiple teams, whereas Russell played on 1 team - so Russell had twice or three times the density of hof teammates as Wilt, yet Russell still lost twice in the Finals!!! He wasn't unbeatable despite having the best cast, whereas MJ never lost in the Finals (goat team ceiling) despite only 1 HOF teammate

9 HOF teammates in an 8-team league, yet Russell still lost in Finals..

1 HOF teammate in 30-team league, yet MJ never lost in Finals

[FromDowntown]

Russell won MVP's because prior to the 3-point line, good team offense/ortgs didn't occur, thus allowing a 1-way defender like Russell to win the most..

but since the 3-point line began, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so we know Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber today, which makes Jordan's 6 rings the goat accomplishment (twice as many "best player" rings/fmvp's as anyone else in 3-pointer basketball/modern era)

Also, Wilt's list of HOF's is from multiple teams, whereas Russell played on 1 team - so Russell had twice or three times the density of hof teammates as Wilt, yet Russell still lost twice in the Finals!!! He wasn't unbeatable despite having the best cast, whereas MJ never lost in the Finals (goat team ceiling) despite only 1 HOF teammate

9 HOF teammates in an 8-team league, yet Russell still lost in Finals..

1 HOF teammate in 30-team league, yet MJ never lost in Finals
Um..MVP goes to best player on 1 or 2 seed 97% of the time (30 of the last 31 MVPs).

So who would win it on Boston if not Russell?

[Vino24]

MJ never defeated an opponent anywhere close to the Goliath that Wilt was

[3ball]

MJ never defeated an opponent anywhere close to the Goliath that Wilt was
True, but MJ had 8 less hof teammates than Russell

All he needed was 1 to be unbeatable, while Russell lost 2 Finals with shoal of HOF teammates

[mr4speed]

True, but MJ had 8 less hof teammates than Russell

All he needed was 1 to be unbeatable, while Russell lost 2 Finals with shoal of HOF teammates

Russell did not lose 2 Finals. He did lose in 1958 to the St Louis Hawks ( he got a bad ankle sprain in game 3) but in 1967 the Philadelphia 76ers beat Boston to get to the Finals. Sorry to be so nick picky but he only lost 1 time in the Finals and most impressively Russell never lost a game 7 - amazing! He deserves to be in the "GOAT" discussion because he won more rings than any NBA player ever. What he did will never be duplicated.

[3ball]

Russell did not lose 2 Finals. He did lose in 1958 to the St Louis Hawks ( he got a bad ankle sprain in game 3) but in 1967 the Philadelphia 76ers beat Boston to get to the Finals. Sorry to be so nick picky but he only lost 1 time in the Finals and most impressively Russell never lost a game 7 - amazing! He deserves to be in the "GOAT" discussion because he won more rings than any NBA player ever. What he did will never be duplicated.
The problem with Russell is that he played before the 3-point line when good team offense/ortgs didn't occur, allowing a 1-way defender to win the most..

But since the 3-pt line began, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so we know Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber today, thereby anointing Jordan's 6 "best player" rings/fmvp's as the goat accomplishment (twice as many as anyone else in 3-pointer basketball/2-way basketball/modern era

[1987_Lakers]

The problem with Russell is that he played before the 3-point line when good team offense/ortgs didn't occur, allowing a 1-way defender to win the most..

But since the 3-pt line began, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so we know Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber today, thereby anointing Jordan's 6 "best player" rings/fmvp's as the goat accomplishment (twice as many as anyone else in 3-pointer basketball/2-way basketball/modern era

And MJ won 2 titles with a short 3 point line.

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[3ball]

And MJ won 2 titles with a short 3 point line.

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League ortg immediately plummetted when they shortened the 3-point line because it reduced spacing and the ground defenders had to cover - the game slowed to a crawl and became tougher than ever, more of a 60's style game with everything close to the hoop except the increase in long 2's (now threes)

So it's a credit to MJ that he could defeat so many forms of the game (poy over Hakeem in college with pure zone; 4 rings at NBA 24-ft line; 2 rings at lesser-spaced 21-foot line; 2 Olympic gold medals, aka legal goal-tend and zone)

[1987_Lakers]

League ortg immediately plummetted when they shortened the 3-point line because it reduced spacing and the ground defenders had to cover - the game slowed to a crawl and became tougher than ever, more of a 60's style game with everything close to the hoop except the increase in long 2's (now threes)

So it's a credit to MJ that he could defeat so many forms of the game (poy over Hakeem in college with pure zone; 4 rings at NBA 24-ft line; 2 rings at lesser-spaced 21-foot line; 2 Olympic gold medals, aka legal goal-tend and zone)

It plummeted because it was a watered down era. Mid-late 90's was the weakest era in the NBA since the mid 70's. MJ won his titles in an extremely weak league.

The fact that the NBA had to shorten the 3 point line just shows the lack of skill players had back then.

[3ball]

It plummeted because it was a watered down era. Mid-late 90's was the weakest era in the NBA since the mid 70's. MJ won his titles in an extremely weak league.

The fact that the NBA had to shorten the 3 point line just shows the lack of skill players had back then.
It was all the same players in 94' that played in 93'

The only difference was the shorter line that reduced spacing and made the game uglier

It's a testament to MJ's greatness and ability to play a grind-it-out style (warrior-kyrptonite style) that he could win 2 rings and dominate that sub-era of uglier, lower-ortg ball

[Axe]

Extremely weak just because the eastern conference had more championship during that era compared to the western conference? Lmao very impressive logic.

[1987_Lakers]

The only difference was the shorter line that reduced spacing and made the game uglier



Teams on average only shot 9 threes a game in '93. The 3 point line was never guarded like the way it is today. Spacing in general throughout the 90's was ugly as hell.

[3ball]

Teams on average only shot 9 threes a game in '93. The 3 point line was never guarded like the way it is today. Spacing in general throughout the 90's was ugly as hell.
Spacing is way better today by a zillion miles because they take so many threes - today's entire strategy is to keep the floor spaced by continually threatening 3-pointers

Precious eras didn't understand how threes can space the floor and make driving and paint scoring exponentially easier

[sdot_thadon]

True, but MJ had 8 less hof teammates than Russell

All he needed was 1 to be unbeatable, while Russell lost 2 Finals with shoal of HOF teammates

I'm pretty sure unbeatable isn't a word that describes Mj's career......

[Axe]

I'm pretty sure unbeatable isn't a word that describes Mj's career......
The same thing can be said to those who thought the warriors are invincible with kd in the lineup.

[3ball]

I'm pretty sure unbeatable isn't a word that describes Mj's career......
Good thing that isn't what said

I said: "All he needed was 1 all-star to be unbeatable"

MJ is clearly the most winning and unbeatable.player with 1 all-star, or with a 1 or 2 seed

[bizil]

When u look at GOAT status it takes into account:

Solo accolades
Team Accolades
Longevity being great
Numbers
Peak-prime status
Impact on the League (redefining a position, rules change because of you, being the face of the league)

When u look at Russ, he has 5 MVPS, 11 rings, 11 All NBA Teams, and 12 All Star games. He was the FACE of the league at one point. And for sure redefined the center spot. U would think THAT ALONE should make him still arguably the GOAT at least. The reason why HE'S NOT is due to the peak-prime status part. Where scoring the rock was his BIGGEST FLAW!!! Plain and simple, that's why he isn't the GOAT anymore. At one point he was. But when guys like MJ, Kareem, Bron and Magic were winning 3+ rings and multiple MVPs WITH THE ABILITY to dominate scoring, it dropped Russ down the chart some. Wilt didn't win ENOUGH to be over Russ GOAT wise. But once u start winning 3+ rings, multiple MVPs, put up huge number and known as a true alpha dog, SOME GUYS are gonna rise past Russ.

In an era where the game was DESIGNED to be played inside-outside, he NEVER WAS a dominant alpha dog caliber scorer. So on a peak-prime level (which factors into GOAT status) he was the ONLY LEGEND of that top ten GOAT who WASN'T an alpha dog level scorer. MJ, Cap, Magic, Bron, Kobe, Wilt, Bird, Shaq, and Duncan were ALL way more potent on offense that Russ. In a draft, I would pick Russ LAST among all those icons. So on a GOAT list, shit like this dropped Russ down the list. AT ONE POINT, he was the GOAT though!

[superduper]

"Why don't you guys think my Bran is the GOAT?! :cry:"