The straw that broke the 73-win camel's back

[TheCorporation]

Imagine being up 3-1 in a series and losing game 5 because the King dropped 41 on your head but also you were without your best defensive player (Draymond)...Only to suit up for game 6 with your beloved Draymond on the court and the King himself literally drops the best Finals game in NBA history.

https://www.bigplay.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/lbj-1.png

This was the moment that won the championship for the Cavaliers. I don't even think it was LeBron's block in game 7 the more I think about it.

LeBron James: Game 6, 2016 NBA Finals

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals and 3 blocks and ONE turnover
Are you kidding me? :eek:

#1 ranked all-time Finals GameScore

This seems to get overlooked but it will go down as the greatest single game performance in NBA Finals history. Thank you for allowing me to witness the best NBA Finals performance in NBA history, against the best 73-win team in NBA history.

[BigShotBob]

What happened against a 57 win team in 2011?

[Celtics 1825]

"B-B-But it was rigged!! :cry:"

I don't even like LeBron but dude was an absolute MONSTER in those games.

[TheCorporation]

What happened against a 57 win team in 2011?

Kobe swept
KD ousted in 5
Wade-ball ousted in 6

LeBron James: Game 6, 2016 NBA Finals

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals, 3 blocks and ONE turnover

#1 ranked NBA Finals game of all-time
#1 ranked GameScore

Thanks for playing

[knicksman]

sorry but only casuals/statnerds respect that win. We know its the refs that won them the series.

[TheCorporation]

sorry but only casuals/statnerds respect that win. We know its the refs that won them the series.

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals, 3 blocks and ONE turnover

#1 ranked NBA Finals game of all-time
#1 ranked GameScore

Thanks for playing

[Akrazotile]

Alls I know is that boy Bron got the biggest straw I dun EVA seen :eek:


Lawd have mercy.

[knicksman]

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals, 3 blocks and ONE turnover

#1 ranked NBA Finals game of all-time
#1 ranked GameScore

Thanks for playing

in the end, it was the refs. It doesnt pass our standards.

[BigShotBob]

Kobe swept
KD ousted in 5
Wade-ball ousted in 6

LeBron James: Game 6, 2016 NBA Finals

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals, 3 blocks and ONE turnover

#1 ranked NBA Finals game of all-time
#1 ranked GameScore

Thanks for playing

Did Kobe, KD, and Wade score less than Jason Terry?

[And1AllDay]

Alls I know is that boy Bron got the biggest straw I dun EVA seen :eek:


Lawd have mercy.


LeBundle

[Big164]

6

[Mr. Jabbar]

What happened against a 57 win team in 2011?

:roll: :roll:

Cold bloded, 1st-reply euthanasia

[STATUTORY]

imagine needing league intervention to beat some light skinned jump shooter

[warriorfan]

Op bringing up broken backs

How ironic

[And1AllDay]

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals, 3 blocks and ONE turnover

#1 ranked NBA Finals game of all-time
#1 ranked GameScore

Thanks for playing

:eek: :eek: Is this really his stat line can anyone confirm he actually did this? Please someone google is this really the highest game score in NBA Finals history?

[Big164]

imagine needing league intervention to beat some light skinned jump shooter
***********2016***********

[BigShotBob]

What happened against a 57 win team in 2011?

Can anyone answer this?

[And1AllDay]

Can anyone answer this?

Swept my Kobe Lakers and 4-1 Durant and Russ :(

[BigShotBob]

Swept my Kobe Lakers and 4-1 Durant and Russ :(

Did Kobe and Durant outscore Jason Terry? I heard Lebron scored less than him. That can't be true right? Please enlighten me my google search engine is malfunctioning.

[And1AllDay]

Did Kobe and Durant outscore Jason Terry? I heard Lebron scored less than him. That can't be true right? Please enlighten me my google search engine is malfunctioning.

No it really is true Jason Terry caught fire against Kobe and lit his azz up so he kept the hot steak going its all Kobes fault :(

[superduper]

Bran bullied a 5'11 160lb beige kid congrats :roll: :roll:

[TheCorporation]

Bran bullied a 5'11 160lb beige kid congrats :roll: :roll:

Yep, he bullied the whole team. The whole organization, even. Destroyed all their hopes and dreams. As a MJ stan you should be GLAD the 73-win Warriors didn't get a chip. Jordan would have fallen out of top 5 at that point.

PS:

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals, 3 blocks and ONE turnover

#1 ranked NBA Finals game of all-time
#1 ranked GameScore

Thanks for playing

[Bawkish]

he's breaking Laker's back nowadays for sure

[TheCorporation]

he's breaking Laker's back nowadays for sure

Yezzur.


-4 seed pre injury

-6 and 12 and soon as he goes down

[superduper]

Yezzur.


-4 seed pre injury

-6 and 12 and soon as he goes down

And what's their record since he came back from his loose vagine injury and what are Kuzma/Ingram's stats in that span?

[TheCorporation]

And what's their record since he came back from his loose vagine injury and what are Kuzma/Ingram's stats in that span?


https://i.postimg.cc/0yrvggmQ/tenor.gif



41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals, 3 blocks and ONE turnover

#1 ranked NBA Finals game of all-time
#1 ranked GameScore

[3ball]

I

LeBron James: Game 6, 2016 NBA Finals

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals and 3 blocks and ONE turnover


MJ's double-nickel in the Finals was better.. :confusedshrug:

And obviously, his Game 6 in the 98' Finals - 52% of his team's points and the goat clutch of all time.. :eek:

furthermore, lebron can't hit 6 threes in a Finals half, so he can't blow a team away like MJ did in the 92' Finals, effectively ending the series in the 1st half of Game 1.. However, MJ also added 46 in critical game 5 with the series tied 2-2

Finally, any Finals game where MJ hit a game-winner or game-tie'er is superior, such as game 1 in 97', game 3 of 91', the flu game, and more

[hold this L]

Imagine losing 3 out of 4 times and making topics like this bragging. Imagine being this much of a loser in the real world.

[Rico2016]

MJ's double-nickel in the Finals was better.. :confusedshrug:

And obviously, his Game 6 in the 98' Finals - 52% of his team's points and the goat clutch of all time.. :eek:

furthermore, lebron can't hit 6 threes in a Finals half, so he can't blow a team away like MJ did in the 92' Finals, effectively ending the series in the 1st half of Game 1.. However, MJ also added 46 in critical game 5 with the series tied 2-2

Finally, any Finals game where MJ hit a game-winner or game-tie'er is superior, such as game 1 in 97', game 3 of 91', the flu game, and more

Uhhh no literally you're wrong. There was just a thread about Finals Game Score and MJ ranked #5 while Bran had two different games both higher than MJ.

And please don't even try to add context for a second without realizing how hard you are ethering yourself.

Game 6, down 3-2, against the 73-win team defending champs? You lose, junior.

[MrFonzworth]

Adam Silver put on a GOAT performance.

[Big164]

weakest warriors team in 4 finals


And you still needed Adam Silver.

[Sakkreth]

imagine needing league intervention to beat some light skinned jump shooter

Imagine having Prime Shaq and still needing major rigging to win it all.

[Gileraracer]

Imagine having Prime Shaq and still needing major rigging to win it all.

Lebron lost with Shaq :lol

[Phoenix]

Well done OP/insidehoops. Happy meals for the whole family with this thread. :applause:

[3ball]

Uhhh no literally you're wrong. There was just a thread about Finals Game Score and MJ ranked #5 while Bran had two different games both higher than MJ.

And please don't even try to add context for a second without realizing how hard you are ethering yourself.

Game 6, down 3-2, against the 73-win team defending champs? You lose, junior.
What play from Lebron's game 5 is replayed over and over for the ages?

MJ's double-nickel and Game 6 are legendary and easily better.. Along with the iconic "flu game"

Nobody talks about lebron's Game 5; it's not "legendary", whereas MJ's game 6 is replayed and mentioned all the time, along with the double-nickel and flu game

[FKAri]

Who cares about game score

MJ's double-nickel and Game 6 were easily better

Along with the flu game

Nobody talks about lebron's Game 5 - it's not "legendary", whereas MJ's game 6 is, along with the double-nickel and flu game
You mean the hangover game. :oldlol:

[3ball]

You mean the hangover game. :oldlol:
You think MJ would be laboring like that over a damn hangover???.. :facepalm

Lebron fans' standards are SO low

[FKAri]

You think MJ would be laboring like that over a damn hangover???.. :facepalm

Lebron fans' standards are SO low
He's a light weight. He was also reportedly drinking well into the morning and barely got any sleep that night. No sense of responsibility or discipline. Weak bitch.

[3ball]

He's a light weight. He was also reportedly drinking well into the morning and barely got any sleep that night. No sense of responsibility or discipline. Weak bitch

.
Magic disagrees strongly:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nFK_q4swYNs&t27m15s


Hangovers are standard and don't hurt guys in HS and college, let alone the goat, who would gamble all night and then dominate elite teams deep in the playoffs.

The flu game is part of basketball lore, and has gotten more legendary in the face of Lebron's lower standard of clutch

[And1AllDay]

MJ's double-nickel in the Finals was better.. :confusedshrug:


GameScore says you a damn lie 3baLLLLLLLL

[3ball]

GameScore says you a damn lie 3baLLLLLLLL
Gamescore means less than PER or win share

And Lebron didn't hit the game-winner, so that alone puts his game below numerous MJ Finals games

jordan's "Game 6" is rapped about by Jay Z (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gG_dA32oH44&list=RDgG_dA32oH44&start_radio=1&t=01m01s).... what lebron game is immortalized in rap lore? (Jay Z goes quiet and lets the crowd yell "Game 6")

:pimp: :hammertime:

I'll wait


Ultimately, Lebron's game 5 is never talked about and has no nickname like the "game 6" or the "flu game" (as Fkari and I were discussing above, before I murked his last troll with testimony from Magic)

[And1AllDay]

Gamescore means less than PER or win share

And Lebron didn't hit the game-winner, so that alone puts his game below numerous MJ Finals games

jordan's "Game 6" is rapped about by Jay Z (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gG_dA32oH44&list=RDgG_dA32oH44&start_radio=1&t=01m01s).... what lebron game is immortalized in rap lore? (Jay Z goes quiet and lets the crowd yell "Game 6")

:pimp: :hammertime:

I'll wait


Ultimately, Lebron's game 5 is never talked about and has no nickname like the "game 6" or the "flu game" (as Fkari and I were discussing above, before I murked his last troll with testimony from Magic)

Bruh


41-11-8-4-3 on 60% and 50% against 73 win team
No contest here

[egokiller]

GSW were so worn down and a shell of themselves due to the WCF and having to go up 3-1 in the finals that they had nothing left by game 5. We know this that because Lebron and Kyrie dropped 41 each with ridiculously high shot %. This was Lebron

[Vino24]

LeBron did something really prolific when you got haters pulling lame excuses out of their ass :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

LeBron did something really prolific when you got haters pulling lame excuses out of their ass :oldlol:

Best Finals Performance in NBA history versus best team in NBA history and yet they are trying their hardest to make excuses

:lol :applause: I commend their pathetic efforts, the hate runs deep. Delusional, but deep.

[TheCorporation]

https://www.bigplay.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/lbj-1.png

LeBron James: Game 6, 2016 NBA Finals

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals and 3 blocks and ONE turnover

#1 ranked all-time Finals GameScore

And no one will dare post up MJ's best Finals game stat line, it will look so weak in comparison.

60% FG? 40-point double double? One turnover? 4 steals? 3 blocks? Versus athletes (not grocery baggers)?

ITS OVA

[3ball]

Bruh


41-11-8-4-3 on 60% and 50% against 73 win team
No contest here
Nobody is rapping about any Lebron games, or shots

Whereas various MJ games and shots are iconic, so they become a fixture in popular culture and get rapped about (raps that reference "the shot" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hxu0dNOIsu8&t=03m51s) vs Cleveland.... "game 6" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YG4z52SRigE&t=0m44s)... "flu game" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WxEbVXXWhL8&t=02m02s))... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Lebron's games aren't iconic because everyone knows deep down that he team-hopped and is a loser on the championship level with conference-dependant Finals appearances (can't beat the West most years)...

Losers and colluders simply don't get rapped about even if they fluke out and win once in a while... Sorry bud
.

[TheCorporation]

Nobody is rapping about any Lebron games, or shots

Whereas various MJ games and shots are iconic, so they become a fixture in popular culture and get rapped about (raps that reference "the shot" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hxu0dNOIsu8&t=03m51s) vs Cleveland.... "game 6" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YG4z52SRigE&t=0m44s)... "flu game" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WxEbVXXWhL8&t=02m02s))... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Lebron's games aren't iconic because everyone knows deep down that he team-hopped and is a loser on the championship level with conference-dependant Finals appearances (can't beat the West most years)...

Losers and colluders simply don't get rapped about even if they fluke out and win once in a while... Sorry bud
.

Again,
And no one will DARE post up MJ's best Finals game stat line, it will look so weak in comparison. 44-11-8-4-3!?

60% FG? 40-point double double? One turnover? 4 steals? 3 blocks? Versus athletes (not grocery baggers)?

ITS OVA baby boi

[ballinhun8]

No one even remembers these stats :confusedshrug:



This Finals is remembered for three things. Kyrie's shot, Green's suspension, and subsequently Warriors blowing the series.

[Dr Hawk]

No one even remembers these stats :confusedshrug:



This Finals is remembered for three things. Kyrie's shot, Green's suspension, and subsequently Warriors blowing the series.

Curry being injured too.

[TheCorporation]

No one even remembers these stats :confusedshrug:



This Finals is remembered for three things. Kyrie's shot, Green's suspension, and subsequently Warriors blowing the series.

Yeah, that's the point of this thread...

It was literally the best individual game in NBA Finals history and we swept it under the rug because it's Kang James

[NuggetsFan]

No one even remembers these stats :confusedshrug:



This Finals is remembered for three things. Kyrie's shot, Green's suspension, and subsequently Warriors blowing the series.

What? Everybody does. It's what sparked the whole LeBron vs MJ thing again. It's honestly that only thing that keeps it alive. Without the series there's literally no argument to be made. It's by far LeBron's greatest moment as an NBA player. That series was insane. I still find LeBron super annoying, but that series cemented his place as a top 5 player in the majority's eyes. An absolute ton of people consider it to be the greatest finals ever.

I have Jordan as the GOAT. Few years ago mighta thought the comparison was interesting. Not really anymore, especially with LeBron picking the Lakers and having 0% chance at another ring basically. Anybody who tries to take away what LeBron did in this series isn't rational, and there opinion becomes irrelevant.

[G0ATbe]

Kobe swept
KD ousted in 5
Wade-ball ousted in 6

LeBron James: Game 6, 2016 NBA Finals

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals, 3 blocks and ONE turnover

#1 ranked NBA Finals game of all-time
#1 ranked GameScore

Thanks for playing
https://media.giphy.com/media/9daj9smgZ362Q/giphy.gif

[egokiller]

No one even remembers these stats :confusedshrug:



This Finals is remembered for three things. Kyrie's shot, Green's suspension, and subsequently Warriors blowing the series.

Exactly, people saw that Kyrie put up as much as LeBron in game 5 on better efficency and chalked it up to an injured GSW team that was too injured and worn down after winning 73 games and playing a 7 game WCF.

When someone is a stan of a guy who is 1-9 without Kyrie or Ray Allen's shots, they need to do their best to try to prop up the loser that they stan. That's why LeBron's finals stat line against the warriors is mentioned. Problem is that context destroys their whole argument. Again, Kyrie did what LeBron did in game 5, and did it better.

[FKAri]

Exactly, people saw that Kyrie put up as much as LeBron in game 5 on better efficency and chalked it up to an injured GSW team that was too injured and worn down after winning 73 games and playing a 7 game WCF.

When someone is a stan of a guy who is 1-9 without Kyrie or Ray Allen's shots, they need to do their best to try to prop up the loser that they stan. That's why LeBron's finals stat line against the warriors is mentioned. Problem is that context destroys their whole argument. Again, Kyrie did what LeBron did in game 5, and did it better.
Too worn down? :oldlol:

A new excuse from the haters: The ring isn't impressive because the team they took down had won TOO MANY games. Oh btw, the person making this excuse is a lifelong Clevelander and a BIGTIME Cavs fan.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[egokiller]

Too worn down? :oldlol:

A new excuse from the haters: The ring isn't impressive because the team they took down had won TOO MANY games. Oh btw, the person making this excuse is a lifelong Clevelander and a BIGTIME Cavs fan.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

No one in Cleveland is proud to beat a worn down injured team that was running on fumes. When is the last time 2 teammates in the finals scored 40+ on 71% an 53% shooting because the other team was too worn down and injured to play defense?

Don't worry, we'll wait for you to find that finals game. :sleeping

[LAmbruh]

Too worn down? :oldlol:

A new excuse from the haters: The ring isn't impressive because the team they took down had won TOO MANY games. Oh btw, the person making this excuse is a lifelong Clevelander and a BIGTIME Cavs fan.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
:roll: :roll:

[And1AllDay]

Too worn down? :oldlol:

A new excuse from the haters: The ring isn't impressive because the team they took down had won TOO MANY games. Oh btw, the person making this excuse is a lifelong Clevelander and a BIGTIME Cavs fan.
:roll: :roll: :roll:


:roll: :roll:

[And1AllDay]

https://www.bigplay.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/lbj-1.png

LeBron James: Game 6, 2016 NBA Finals

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals and 3 blocks and ONE turnover

#1 ranked all-time Finals GameScore

And no one will dare post up MJ's best Finals game stat line, it will look so weak in comparison.

60% FG? 40-point double double? One turnover? 4 steals? 3 blocks? Versus athletes (not grocery baggers)?

ITS OVA

:eek: :eek:

[3ball]

#1 ranked all-time Finals GameScore


MJ had a much better game score against a better team - 47 game score against the 86' Celts

That's better than lebron's 42, so lebron never reached MJ's level of play - a full 5 points less

And if MJ had a couple perennial all-star teammates like lebron did, he would've beaten the celts

MJ also had the highest game score ever for a Finals series, and 2 Finals series with higher game scores than Lebron's best


https://media.tenor.com/images/258addfe3528543124a9c703da4ccece/tenor.gif





Again,
And no one will DARE post up MJ's best Finals game stat line, it will look so weak in comparison. 44-11-8-4-3!?


55 points is >>>

45 points with 52% of his team's points and the goat clutch is definitely better ("game 6")

[And1AllDay]

MJ had a much better game score against a better team - 47 game score against the 86' Celts

That's better than lebron's 42, so lebron never reached MJ's level of play - a full 5 points less

And if MJ had a couple perennial all-star teammates like lebron did, he would've beaten the celts

MJ also had the highest game score ever for a Finals series, and 2 Finals series with higher game scores than Lebron's best


https://media.tenor.com/images/258addfe3528543124a9c703da4ccece/tenor.gif




55 points is >>>

45 points with 52% of his team's points and the goat clutch is definitely better ("game 6")

:oldlol: Delusional

Which finals series does LeBron win aveargaing 4 reb and 2 assists ?

[knicksman]

Imagine respecting a WWE ring. You must be losing so much in life to be settling for those. :lol

[3ball]

:oldlol: Delusional

Which finals series does LeBron win aveargaing 4 reb and 2 assists ?


All of them if he played like MJ

I'd get into the details with stats and facts but you guys just ignore them, because ur dumb as shit

Enjoy lebron never being the consensus goat

[And1AllDay]

All of them if he played like MJ

I'd get into the details with stats and facts but you guys just ignore them, because ur dumb as shit

Enjoy lebron never being the consensus goat

Mike is a clear #4 at this point how are you still seeing a different number?

1. Bran
2. Kirby
3. Bird
4. Mikey :confusedshrug:

Which finals series does LeBron win aveargaing 4 reb and 2 assists ?

[SouBeachTalents]

Mike is a clear #4 at this point how are you still seeing a different number?

1. Bran
2. Kirby
3. Bird
4. Mikey :confusedshrug:

Which finals series does LeBron win aveargaing 4 reb and 2 assists ?
Don't forget Kareem, Russell, Wilt & Magic

[TheCorporation]

Don't forget Kareem, Russell, Wilt & Magic

MJ was 0-6 vs Bird in playoffs. Yikes

MJ might be top 8 at best the more we dissect.

[And1AllDay]

Imagine being up 3-1 in a series and losing game 5 because the King dropped 41 on your head but also you were without your best defensive player (Draymond)...Only to suit up for game 6 with your beloved Draymond on the court and the King himself literally drops the best Finals game in NBA history.

https://www.bigplay.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/lbj-1.png

This was the moment that won the championship for the Cavaliers. I don't even think it was LeBron's block in game 7 the more I think about it.

LeBron James: Game 6, 2016 NBA Finals

41-11-8 on 60% FG, 50% 3P with 4 steals and 3 blocks and ONE turnover
Are you kidding me? :eek:

#1 ranked all-time Finals GameScore

This seems to get overlooked but it will go down as the greatest single game performance in NBA Finals history. Thank you for allowing me to witness the best NBA Finals performance in NBA history, against the best 73-win team in NBA history.

Mike aint even in the top 5 Finals peformances:eek:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

I'll take the guy that didn't allow his team to be DOWN 3-1.


Jordan's game 4 of the 1993 NBA finals:
55 points, 8 boards 4 assists, 1 turnover, .568% shooting
Gave his team a commanding 3-1 lead in the series.
Next highest teammate = 17 points (Horace Grant)


Meanwhile Lebron:
41 points, 8 boards 11 assists, 1 turnover, .593% shooting
Had teammates who scored 23, 15, 14 points.


Michael - 55/108 total points in the game. LJ = 41/115.
MJ had less help and did more. Plus was about to 3-peat, unlike Lebron who had gotten beat by an air conditioner in 2014 and couldn't handle the pressure in 2015.

[And1AllDay]

I'll take the guy that didn't allow his team to be DOWN 3-1.


Jordan's game 4 of the 1993 NBA finals:
55 points, 8 boards 4 assists, 1 turnover, .568% shooting
Gave his team a commanding 3-1 lead in the series.
Next highest teammate = 17 points (Horace Grant)


Meanwhile Lebron:
41 points, 8 boards 11 assists, 1 turnover, .593% shooting
Had teammates who scored 23, 15, 14 points.


Michael - 55/108 total points in the game. LJ = 41/115.
MJ had less help and did more. Plus was about to 3-peat, unlike Lebron who had gotten beat by an air conditioner in 2014 and couldn't handle the pressure in 2015.

Against?

And did you forget Brons 4 blocks and 3 steals? 50% from 3?

Try again

[The Iron Fist]

Did Kobe, KD, and Wade score less than Jason Terry?
Combined they have less finals losses than lebron, with more appearances.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Against?

And did you forget Brons 4 blocks and 3 steals? 50% from 3?

Try again



So, here's a fun fact:


Lebron has NEVER won a title in a full NBA season without a teammate bailing him out. 100% truth. Can you refute that?


Try again.

[SouBeachTalents]

So, here's a fun fact:


Lebron has NEVER won a title in a full NBA season without a teammate bailing him out. 100% truth. Can you refute that?


Try again.
Shaq never won a title without a top 4 SG of all time. 100% truth

[And1AllDay]

So, here's a fun fact:


Lebron has NEVER won a title in a full NBA season without a teammate bailing him out. 100% truth. Can you refute that?


Try again.

So did you forget Brons 4 blocks and 3 steals? 50% from 3?

Are you seriously going to dismiss 1-9 before Pippen saved his legacy?

Try again

[LeCola]

That was a great success, it hold Lebron in top 15-20.