How good is James Harden?

[eliteballer]

In a historical context.

We know people don't like aspects of his game, but we can't deny his numbers and impact on the Rockets.

If some of the "name" guys like Durant, LeBron, Curry etc. were doing this people would be losing their minds.

[Marchesk]

So if we were to compare peak Harden (2019), where would that rank all-time?

Remember when people were saying that peak Wade (2009) was one of the best peaks ever? Miami was 42-40 and lost in the first round. Or the next season when they were 48-34 and lost in the first round, but Wade wavered 33 for that series.

[warriorfan]

Probably the greatest offensive season in the modern era?

[Marchesk]

Probably the greatest offensive season in the modern era?

You're going to put him above 2016 Steph :wtf:

[Spurs m8]

Not very good

[warriorfan]

You're going to put him above 2016 Steph :wtf:

No, but I don’t have a huge problem with him being in the conversation. If you look at Harden’s season so far from a pure statistical standpoint it’s pretty incredible. There are other factors that come into play that go beyond the box however. And the season isn’t over yet too.

[Kblaze8855]

It really is impossible to say for reasons I wish were clear to more people before this weird few seasons. Theres no way he could score 37 a game 20 years ago. Not because of talent...because his style wouldnt be allowed....and he could be better defended. Not to mention his team wouldnt have so many possessions. Even Dantoni teams were way slower. The 05 Suns took less shots per game than all but 1 team in the NBA right now.

We cant judge current players by numbers any more than 60s and 70s guys.

All we can use is what we should be using anyway...skills. But he make that hard too because so much of what he does depends on the league calling games as they do. Remove the "zero step" modifications and moves that simply wouldnt be allowed in other times....some of the foul seeking...he isnt worse. Hes just less effective...which is a subtle difference.

He has nasty handles(even if he does average 5-6 turnovers). Hes a great passer. Great shooter. But so much is dependent on the game being called as it is its hard to compare him to people who played a different game.

Hardens 37/8/7 vs Grant Hills 21/7/7 isnt a simple comparison.

[Marchesk]

But so much is dependent on the game being called as it is its hard to compare him to people who played a different game.


That's true. Thus the "you can't compare across eras". That's a bit overstated, but it does remind you that a lot of things happen in a context. The team, the season, the competition, etc. When does a player peak and what's their health and role on a team and so on.

But you could rephrase the OP to ask how good Harden is relative to now compared to how good other greats were in their eras.

A different question would be what players in history have the skills that translate best across eras.

[Bronbron23]

It's very good but not the best season ever. For one the best season ever would include playoffs and we already know he's gonna get worse come playoff time.
Second he's playing in the worst defensive era ever with a spead up pace of play so you have to account for inflation. Put a prime mj, Kobe or LeBron in this era and they would all be better.

[Kblaze8855]

Relative to each era maybe....

Rick Barry of the late 60s? Insane scoring on insane touches and attempts with some playoff success*BArry took his team tothe finals and lost before he won it all in the 70s).

Bob Mcadoo in the 70s?

Bernard King of the 80s?

Its hard to say because he plays like none of these people. All of them got in that 35ppg range though without much to show for it aside from a couple good records. Barry won it all after he played a more team game.

Would a rockets fan be offended by the idea that Harden is about as effective in 2019 as Rick Barry in his day?

That a problem?

Rick did put up 28, 32, and 41ppg in 3 playoff series in a row. Its not inconceivable that in the playoffs Harden could score 55 on 40 something shots this year like Barry did in the finals.

[warriorfan]

That’s why included the phrasing “modern era” in my post. It’s impossible to compare guys completely fairly across eras where the game was so different. Best you can do is compare the best amongst their peers they competed against. The rest is purely speculation.

[Bronbron23]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]That

[warriorfan]

Even if that's the case he'd have to be a beast in playoffs for it to be considered the best offensive season. Mj was putting up similar numbers in his prime in the playoffs and more importantly the finals. If harden does this deep in the playoffs then he'd have a case but we all know that's not gonna happen.

If you wanna change it to regular season then yes he's definitely in the conversation

I was implying just the 82 game regular season.

[Celtics 1825]

As much as I hate to admit it, it's just a fact that he's having one of the greatest offensive seasons in all of basketball. Possibly the best in the last 25 years (Not sure if I'd quite put it above Kobe 06 or Curry 16).

Harden is a phenomenal scorer, I just dislike the way he gets his points.

[LoneyROY7]

If James can just get one ring, his legacy will transform in a very dramatic way.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

One of the greatest regular-season players in history imo.

At least in the last 2 or 3 years.

I'd say that overall he's crafty but also reliant on the soft rules. I do give him credit for being smart enough to exploit them. He clearly doesn't give a fukk about perception, playing his and ONLY his way.

[NBAGOAT]

he's comparable to those peak perimeter scorer type years at least relative to his era. Maybe not as good but others include kobe 06, tmac 03, wade 09, durant 14 etc. I think Curry 16 is marginally better however.

[FKAri]

It really is impossible to say for reasons I wish were clear to more people before this weird few seasons. Theres no way he could score 37 a game 20 years ago. Not because of talent...because his style wouldnt be allowed....and he could be better defended. Not to mention his team wouldnt have so many possessions. Even Dantoni teams were way slower. The 05 Suns took less shots per game than all but 1 team in the NBA right now.

We cant judge current players by numbers any more than 60s and 70s guys.

All we can use is what we should be using anyway...skills. But he make that hard too because so much of what he does depends on the league calling games as they do. Remove the "zero step" modifications and moves that simply wouldnt be allowed in other times....some of the foul seeking...he isnt worse. Hes just less effective...which is a subtle difference.

He has nasty handles(even if he does average 5-6 turnovers). Hes a great passer. Great shooter. But so much is dependent on the game being called as it is its hard to compare him to people who played a different game.

Hardens 37/8/7 vs Grant Hills 21/7/7 isnt a simple comparison.
A big part of Harden's game is that defenders simply can't get close enough to him to truly contest his shot without him finding a way to draw a foul on them. This is where his game would suffer in years past. I agree he wouldn't be able to put up these numbers in the "good ol days". But it doesn't work both ways. I don't think you can take guards from the past, put them in today's NBA and assume they'd all just be better. Harden's talents are fine tuned to today's game. Other great might not be able to do what he does quite as well as he can today. It's a somewhat different skill requirement.

Ofcourse, this is assuming he is able to replicate this success in the playoffs which considering his age, he still has time to figure out.

[game3524]

A big part of Harden's game is that defenders simply can't get close enough to him to truly contest his shot without him finding a way to draw a foul on them. This is where his game would suffer in years past. I agree he wouldn't be able to put up these numbers in the "good ol days". But it doesn't work both ways. I don't think you can take guards from the past, put them in today's NBA and assume they'd all just be better. Harden's talents are fine tuned to today's game. Other great might not be able to do what he does quite as well as he can today. It's a somewhat different skill requirement.

Ofcourse, this is assuming he is able to replicate this success in the playoffs which considering his age, he still has time to figure out.

I somewhat disagree.

I don't think you can transport guys from the 70s and 80s to this era and expect them to be better. But guys from the 2000s (AI, McGrady, Pierce, Kobe etc), I think their numbers would be better. I mean the game has changed, but things have changed that much in 10-12 years.

[Smook A.]

He's definitely having one of the best seasons ever offensively. I'd say it's even better than 06 Kobe's especially if he maintains the average until the end of the season. Im about to go into that.

Right now, James Harden is averaging 37.6 ppg on 24.6 FGA. In NBA history, there have been 46 seasons where a player has shot 24 or more FGA. Out of all 46, Harden is ranked

#2 in eFG%
#1 in TS%
#2 in 3PT FG%
#5 in 2PT FG%
#1 in pts per possession

This is some really good high volume efficiency, so anyone saying Harden is inefficient is factually very incorrect.

Here's where it gets even better. Harden's points per 100 possessions is currently at 48.0... That's the best in NBA HISTORY. Just something to think about right there. He's also topping it off by averaging 7.7 apg.

Also here's an interesting fact. This season, Harden has more 40 point games (24) than games with under 30 points (14). He also has more 50 point games (6) than games under 20 points (3). Wow.

[Mr.GOAT2408]

He's having a great season statistically but anyone that watches him knows how fraudulent it is. He fully abuses the softness of today's NBA, most guys don't because they're playing in a team concept but there's a ton of guys right now that can average 30+ if they wanted to in that system, maybe even have a TS% above 60%.

Dribble dribble dribble with 3-4 shooters out and tons of space to operate in and getting away with obvious offensive fouls that not even Curry (Curry!) gets away with, I'll give him props for selling them as well as anyone in league history but it's disgusting basketball.

Basically, he's a product of this era. He wouldn't be jacking up this many 3s in an earlier time and certainly would not draw the bs fouls he draws.

[SaltyMeatballs]

He's definitely having one of the best seasons ever offensively. I'd say it's even better than 06 Kobe's especially if he maintains the average until the end of the season. Im about to go into that.

Right now, James Harden is averaging 37.6 ppg on 24.6 FGA. In NBA history, there have been 46 seasons where a player has shot 24 or more FGA. Out of all 46, Harden is ranked

#2 in eFG%
#1 in TS%
#2 in 3PT FG%
#5 in 2PT FG%
#1 in pts per possession

This is some really good high volume efficiency, so anyone saying Harden is inefficient is factually very incorrect.

Here's where it gets even better. Harden's points per 100 possessions is currently at 48.0... That's the best in NBA HISTORY. Just something to think about right there. He's also topping it off by averaging 7.7 apg.

Also here's an interesting fact. This season, Harden has more 40 point games (24) than games with under 30 points (14). He also has more 50 point games (6) than games under 20 points (3). Wow.
That's insane. I did not know that, I thought it was Wilt, 87 Jordan or 16 Curry

[Smook A.]

That's insane. I did not know that, I thought it was Wilt, 87 Jordan or 16 Curry
Nope.

Harden really is averaging the most points per 100 possessions in NBA history.

He's at 48.0
MJ in 1987 - 46.4
Kobe in 06 - 45.6
Steph in '16 - 42.5
Wilt in '62 - 40.5

[Callystarr]

I can't roll with him.

He shoots 44% from the field career, below the NBA average.

Everyone talks about how great a shooter he is but he shoots 36% from the 3 point line...there are teams with higher percentages.

Frankly he just shoots the ball a lot, so he scores a lot

Averages over 5 turnovers per game in 2 of the last 3 seasons. Along with him and Westbrook, the least efficient passers in history (most turnovers in history)

He is shooting 25 shots a game (14 3's), and 11 free throws. Let Jordan or Lebron shoot that many times, they would average 40 a game.

[Smook A.]

I can't roll with him.

He shoots 44% from the field career, below the NBA average.

Everyone talks about how great a shooter he is but he shoots 36% from the 3 point line...there are teams with higher percentages.

Frankly he just shoots the ball a lot, so he scores a lot

Averages over 5 turnovers per game in 2 of the last 3 seasons. Along with him and Westbrook, the least efficient passers in history (most turnovers in history)

He is shooting 25 shots a game (14 3's), and 11 free throws. Let Jordan or Lebron shoot that many times, they would average 40 a game.
Check out what I said in my first comment


Right now, James Harden is averaging 37.6 ppg on 24.6 FGA. In NBA history, there have been 46 seasons where a player has shot 24 or more FGA. Out of all 46, Harden is ranked

#2 in eFG%
#1 in TS%
#2 in 3PT FG%
#5 in 2PT FG%
#1 in pts per possession

[Callystarr]

Nope.

Harden really is averaging the most points per 100 possessions in NBA history.

He's at 48.0
MJ in 1987 - 46.4
Kobe in 06 - 45.6
Steph in '16 - 42.5
Wilt in '62 - 40.5


Well when you are shooting 14 3's per game, you simply cannot compare to players like MJ and Kobe who were shooting 2-3 a game. Wilt Chamberlain no 3's.

[Callystarr]

Check out what I said in my first comment

How do you figure that he is #2 in 3pt FG%??? and #5 in 2pt FG%?

[Smook A.]

Well when you are shooting 14 3's per game, you simply cannot compare to players like MJ and Kobe who were shooting 2-3 a game. Wilt Chamberlain no 3's.
The way basketball is played today has changed. Everyone knows that. Still doesn't take away from the fact that Harden is one pace to average the best points per 100 possessions in NBA history. He's having one of the best offensive seasons ever

[Callystarr]

He's definitely having one of the best seasons ever offensively. I'd say it's even better than 06 Kobe's especially if he maintains the average until the end of the season. Im about to go into that.

Right now, James Harden is averaging 37.6 ppg on 24.6 FGA. In NBA history, there have been 46 seasons where a player has shot 24 or more FGA. Out of all 46, Harden is ranked

#2 in eFG%
#1 in TS%
#2 in 3PT FG%
#5 in 2PT FG%
#1 in pts per possession

This is some really good high volume efficiency, so anyone saying Harden is inefficient is factually very incorrect.

Here's where it gets even better. Harden's points per 100 possessions is currently at 48.0... That's the best in NBA HISTORY. Just something to think about right there. He's also topping it off by averaging 7.7 apg.

Also here's an interesting fact. This season, Harden has more 40 point games (24) than games with under 30 points (14). He also has more 50 point games (6) than games under 20 points (3). Wow.

Please tell me where you are getting your stats from because my source does not EQUAL what you are saying now that I have looked them up.

[tpols]

he's running a gimmick offense with cartoon usage... reminds me of the hype around 2017 westbrook although ill admit he has better skills and iq.

[Smook A.]

How do you figure that he is #2 in 3pt FG%??? and #5 in 2pt FG%?
Basketball reference

3PT FG% for players who shot 24 or more FGA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=fga_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=24&order_by=ws)
2PT FG% for players who shot 24 or more FGA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=fga_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=24&order_by=ws)

[Smook A.]

Please tell me where you are getting your stats from because my source does not EQUAL what you are saying now that I have looked them up.
Well you're searching wrong then, because I found all this info on basketball reference.

[Marchesk]

Would a rockets fan be offended by the idea that Harden is about as effective in 2019 as Rick Barry in his day?

What's wrong with that comparison? Rick Barry was great at his peak. He's just overlooked these days. Same with McAdoo.

[Callystarr]

I see what you are doing here.

You are trying to fit a narrative to push, what you are wanting to push.
He is NOT an efficient shooter, his shooting percentages are pathetic. Then you re trying to compare this relatively new 2point percentages which factors in 3 point percentage against players that came before him 90% who didn't shoot more than 2 threes a game.

If you are going to compare periods, compare statistics that were tracked then and now. The only true way to track is by FG% and 3point% in which out of league leaders, James Harden is one of the worst in history. The guy shoots BELOW the nba statistical average from the field, and also shoots an AVERAGE percentage from the 3point line. The difference is he jacks up a lot.

These "new stats" of figuring out the value of a 3pointer does not change anything. He shoots a lot, so obviously it is going to result in him making a lot. He has poor shot selection.

[4pointshot]

Basketball reference

3PT FG% for players who shot 24 or more FGA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=fga_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=24&order_by=ws)
2PT FG% for players who shot 24 or more FGA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=fga_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=24&order_by=ws)

Harden is the only player in the NBA who has averaged > 24 FGA this year.

[Callystarr]

Harden is the only player in the NBA who has averaged > 24 FGA this year.

:rolleyes: He just trying to make his stats make sense. Why a random 24 shots? Why not 20.. :lol

[Smook A.]

I see what you are doing here.

You are trying to fit a narrative to push, what you are wanting to push.
He is NOT an efficient shooter, his shooting percentages are pathetic. Then you re trying to compare this relatively new 2point percentages which factors in 3 point percentage against players that came before him 90% who didn't shoot more than 2 threes a game.

If you are going to compare periods, compare statistics that were tracked then and now. The only true way to track is by FG% and 3point% in which out of league leaders, James Harden is one of the worst in history. The guy shoots BELOW the nba statistical average from the field, and also shoots an AVERAGE percentage from the 3point line. The difference is he jacks up a lot.

These "new stats" of figuring out the value of a 3pointer does not change anything. He shoots a lot, so obviously it is going to result in him making a lot. He has poor shot selection.
That's a load of bullshit. Since he's taking a lot of threes, it's better to look at his eFG% and TS% as compared to just FG% and 3 pt%. eFG% is perfect because the percentage adjusts for the fact that a 3 pt field goal is worth one more than a 2 pt field goal. Harden's is at 54% is very good.

His 3 point percentage alone is above the league's average and considering that he takes 14 a game makes that percentage look even better since he's doing it consistently. In the end, you have to look at his OVERALL efficiency because that's what matters the most. His TS% is the best ever for players who have shot 24 FGA or more and it's currently at 61.8% which is less than 1% behind Kevin Durant who's a very efficient player himself.

[Smook A.]

Harden is the only player in the NBA who has averaged > 24 FGA this year.
Im not talking about just this year. I'm talking about all-time. There's been 46 seasons where a player has averaged 24 or more FGA

[Bronbron23]

I was implying just the 82 game regular season.
Yeah not huge fan of hardens game but its hard to argue that as much as I'd like to

[SaltyMeatballs]

I see what you are doing here.

You are trying to fit a narrative to push, what you are wanting to push.
He is NOT an efficient shooter, his shooting percentages are pathetic. Then you re trying to compare this relatively new 2point percentages which factors in 3 point percentage against players that came before him 90% who didn't shoot more than 2 threes a game.

If you are going to compare periods, compare statistics that were tracked then and now. The only true way to track is by FG% and 3point% in which out of league leaders, James Harden is one of the worst in history. The guy shoots BELOW the nba statistical average from the field, and also shoots an AVERAGE percentage from the 3point line. The difference is he jacks up a lot.

These "new stats" of figuring out the value of a 3pointer does not change anything. He shoots a lot, so obviously it is going to result in him making a lot. He has poor shot selection.
Advanced stats literally prove Harden is an efficient scorer :oldlol:


I can't roll with him.

He shoots 44% from the field career, below the NBA average.

Everyone talks about how great a shooter he is but he shoots 36% from the 3 point line...there are teams with higher percentages.

Frankly he just shoots the ball a lot, so he scores a lot

Averages over 5 turnovers per game in 2 of the last 3 seasons. Along with him and Westbrook, the least efficient passers in history (most turnovers in history)

He is shooting 25 shots a game (14 3's), and 11 free throws. Let Jordan or Lebron shoot that many times, they would average 40 a game.
NBA's average fg% is 46%. Harden shoots 44%. He's a perimeter player who shoots a lot of threes so obviously his percentage isn't going to be in the high 40s or 50s. His FG% is respectable when you take those things into account and his TS% is pretty damn good at 62%. He's definitely having an efficient season. Your reason for not "rolling with him" is stupid

[BigShotBob]

I'm pretty sure Harden has more total Free Throws made then Field Goals made for his career so far.

[4pointshot]

Im not talking about just this year. I'm talking about all-time. There's been 46 seasons where a player has averaged 24 or more FGA

There have been at least 50, according to your own link. But only 16 of them at a time when there was a 3 point shot, and only eight in this century.

I don't disagree that Harden has been fairly efficient, by TS%, but that's to a large extent because of all the fouls he draws. His three point % is above league average for the season, but that's because he's living off earlier in the season, when he first attempted fewer per game, then had one historically great twelve game stretch. Since that time, a stretch of 21 games, when he's upped his attempt average to nearly 16 per game, he's been at league average or slightly below, 32.5%.

For the season, he's at 36.4%, which is decent, but certainly not close to elite. And it wasn't any higher in previous seasons, when he took far fewer shots. I will give you this: he's greatly increased his volume of 3PA, without much affecting his %. But a lot of players are doing this. Curry started doing it three years ago. Hield is doing it now. So is George.

I'm mostly surprised, though, that people raving about Harden don't point out that he plays PG as well as SG, and is one of the assist leaders, as well a lot more rebounds for a guard than is usual.

[Johnni Gade]

If James can just get one ring, his legacy will transform in a very dramatic way.
This pretty much