Goat debate

[nayte]

It's not funny anymore. I try to debate who is goat but I get LeBron over Jordan cause stats. But I bring up harden and westbrook and somehow stats don't count. All fans need to get their sheet strait. It is silly.

[Manny98]

Because you need a combo of stats/winning/individual accolades to be in the GOAT debate

Harden and Westbrook have 0 rings and only 1 MVP each so not close to being GOAT worthy

[Gileraracer]

Because you need a combo of stats/winning/individual accolades to be in the GOAT debate

Harden and Westbrook have 0 rings and only 1 MVP each so not close to being GOAT worthy

What if you need two superstar collusions AND two miracle shots AND a crucial suspension to win 3 rings in the weak east and miss the POs as soon as you head west?

Does this automatically dismiss you from any GOAT debate?

[ArbitraryWater]

i dont think statistically they are top 25 in the playoffs?

or what point were you making, OP?

[nayte]

i dont think statistically they are top 25 in the playoffs?

or what point were you making, OP?

You feed into the same thing. No point but it's annoying.

[nayte]

Because you need a combo of stats/winning/individual accolades to be in the GOAT debate

Harden and Westbrook have 0 rings and only 1 MVP each so not close to being GOAT worthy

Fair enough but how do weigh those measurements

[sdot_thadon]

It's not funny anymore. I try to debate who is goat but I get LeBron over Jordan cause stats. But I bring up harden and westbrook and somehow stats don't count. All fans need to get their sheet strait. It is silly.
It's really hard to have honest debates on goat, too many different criteria sets. And within that too many people unwilling to hold consistent criteria to their list. ie:

stats count when you compare Mj to Kareem/Russell, but not when comapring Lebron to Mj/Kobe etc.

Rings not counting for Russell vs. Mj but counting for Mj vs everyone else

Having Shaq be held against Kobe, but have Kareem as goat and Magic in the top 5.

Count dominance yet disrespect a guy like Wilt.

I could go on and on. If you have a goat list all the logic should work for every slot

[bullettooth]

Because you need a combo of stats/winning/individual accolades to be in the GOAT debate

Lebron has none of those.

[Manny98]

Lebron has none of those.
3 rings ,3 FMVPs, 4 MVPs ,most NBA 1st teams,GOAT stats in regular season and postseason, KYS

['Toine=MVP]

It's really hard to have honest debates on goat, too many different criteria sets. And within that too many people unwilling to hold consistent criteria to their list. ie:

stats count when you compare Mj to Kareem/Russell, but not when comapring Lebron to Mj/Kobe etc.

Rings not counting for Russell vs. Mj but counting for Mj vs everyone else

Having Shaq be held against Kobe, but have Kareem as goat and Magic in the top 5.

Count dominance yet disrespect a guy like Wilt.

I could go on and on. If you have a goat list all the logic should work for every slot

I think you have a point, that mostly people are almost randomly ranking guys they've heard should be at the top and have no real standards.

But I think you are also a little confused about the arguments, especially regarding Jordan and also the post peak Kareem vs peak Shaq analogy.

[Phoenix]

It's really hard to have honest debates on goat, too many different criteria sets. And within that too many people unwilling to hold consistent criteria to their list. ie:

stats count when you compare Mj to Kareem/Russell, but not when comapring Lebron to Mj/Kobe etc.

Rings not counting for Russell vs. Mj but counting for Mj vs everyone else

Having Shaq be held against Kobe, but have Kareem as goat and Magic in the top 5.

Count dominance yet disrespect a guy like Wilt.

I could go on and on. If you have a goat list all the logic should work for every slot

The GOAT argument will never been without agendas or personal preferences. I don't have a GOAT, I tend to go by tiers.

[Marchesk]

It's really hard to have honest debates on goat, too many different criteria sets. And within that too many people unwilling to hold consistent criteria to their list. ie:

stats count when you compare Mj to Kareem/Russell, but not when comapring Lebron to Mj/Kobe etc.

Rings not counting for Russell vs. Mj but counting for Mj vs everyone else

Having Shaq be held against Kobe, but have Kareem as goat and Magic in the top 5.

Count dominance yet disrespect a guy like Wilt.

I could go on and on. If you have a goat list all the logic should work for every slot


If we were all to be totally objective, we'd put the legitimate GOAT candidates on tier 1 and then give our individual reasons why one of them should be called GOAT.


Russell
Wilt
Lebron
Jordan
Kareem
Magic

I say Jordan because I think he had to best combination of winning, stats and accolades taking into account teammates and era. But that's my opinion. You can make a case for all six of those guys.

['Toine=MVP]

The GOAT argument will never been without agendas or personal preferences. I don't have a GOAT, I tend to go by tiers.

It is definitely going to come down to personal preference, but most people are agenda free. I think the biggest issue with current rankings is that some people are just too focused on recent years and tend to vastly overrate the current best players.

['Toine=MVP]

If we were all to be totally objective, we'd put the legitimate GOAT candidates on tier 1 and then give our individual reasons why one of them should be called GOAT.


Russell
Wilt
Lebron
Jordan
Kareem
Magic

I say Jordan because I think he had to best combination of winning, stats and accolades taking into account teammates and era. But that's my opinion. You can make a case for all six of those guys.

You can't make a case for all these guys as the GOAT. And leaving Bird out of this tier is beyond ignorant.

[Marchesk]

You can't make a case for all these guys as the GOAT. And leaving Bird out of this tier is beyond ignorant.

Yes you can. But if you want to say Bird is on the same level as Magic, then fine. But if you bring Bird in, then you also have Duncan, Shaq and Kobe.

So okay, drop Magic from the list.

Bill Russell = most winning
Wilt = best stats, most dominant
Kareem = best longevity, 6 MVPs
Jordan = best scoring, never lost a finals
Lebron = best carrying a team

All of those guys have multiple titles, rings, MVPs, dominating stats (Russell would be rebounding and shot blocking if it was tracked), and have been called the GOAT by plenty of people throughout time.

Magic and Bird were hurt by having their careers shortened.

[72-10]

It was a good job, good debate.

[bullettooth]

3 rings ,3 FMVPs, 4 MVPs ,most NBA 1st teams,GOAT stats in regular season and postseason, KYS

You are one oblivious tool.

[sdot_thadon]

I think you have a point, that mostly people are almost randomly ranking guys they've heard should be at the top and have no real standards.

But I think you are also a little confused about the arguments, especially regarding Jordan and also the post peak Kareem vs peak Shaq analogy.
Don't mistake me not going in depth as being confused, Mj gets criteria spun and flipped to stay in his favor constantly:oldlol: I used to do the same thing myself when i was younger and had idols. About Shaq and Kareem of course it's not an exact 1:1 comparison but we know Kareem was still Kareem for at least half the Laker titles, While having Magic by his side. But you are totally correct about people not really having standards and winging it.



The GOAT argument will never been without agendas or personal preferences. I don't have a GOAT, I tend to go by tiers.
agreed, i myself prefer the tier concept these days too.


If we were all to be totally objective, we'd put the legitimate GOAT candidates on tier 1 and then give our individual reasons why one of them should be called GOAT.


Russell
Wilt
Lebron
Jordan
Kareem
Magic

I say Jordan because I think he had to best combination of winning, stats and accolades taking into account teammates and era. But that's my opinion. You can make a case for all six of those guys.
I pretty much got it the same way besides Magic not being in my top tier and not really being sure how to rate Wilt and Russell but knowing enough that i can't eliminate them from consideration. The older guys are really tough to deal with not knowing them as well as the guys we grew up with. I swear a baby seal gets clubbed everytime i see a poster tell someone they're unqualified to speak on Mj because they didn't grow up watching him while simultaneously disregarding Wilt, Bill, and sometimes even Cap.

One idea i hold about the goat is generally most of the top 10 have a case the lower half have much weaker cases but depending on what you value most you can make a case for them all.

[Bronbron23]

You have to use all three factors. Eye test, rings and stats, in that order. If you take almost any game anywhere and there wasnt a stat sheet, score or trophies you would still know who the best player on the floor was. There's a reason why scouts still go to multiple games of prospects when evaluating them.

Being a winner is important because it shows you know how to lead and work well with others to achieve a goal. The best leaders have a very high iq when it comes to seeing the game. They also know how to get the most out of there players. If you look at most of the goat players they were all winners before the NBA. Magic, bird, mj, LeBron, kareem, Russell and Kobe we're all winners before the NBA.

Stats are more to just reaffirm what you already know about a player from watching them. They're the least effective of the three in evaluating a player. there are guys like Draymond with average stats who are better than alot of guys with better stats. Then there are guys like cousins who has really good stats but are worse than alot of guys with lesser stats.

At the end of they day though I think mj put it best when he said there is no goat. Until someone builds a time machine and we can put mj against LeBron or Russell against kareem, we'll really never know

[Leviathon1121]

Well the eye test quite easily shows LeBron is the worst defender of a supposed GOAT candidate, and seeing as how defense is half of basketball that should automatically disqualify him. And one year of chase down blocks does not put you anywhere near the level of defense that a GOAT candidate such a Jordan put forth for a career.

[sdot_thadon]

Well the eye test quite easily shows LeBron is the worst defender of a supposed GOAT candidate, and seeing as how defense is half of basketball that should automatically disqualify him. And one year of chase down blocks does not put you anywhere near the level of defense that a GOAT candidate such a Jordan put forth for a career.
actually Lebron was a great peak defender just didn't do it over a long period of time. Remember he has 2 2nd place finishes for dpoy.

[FKAri]

Yes you can. But if you want to say Bird is on the same level as Magic, then fine. But if you bring Bird in, then you also have Duncan, Shaq and Kobe.

So okay, drop Magic from the list.

Bill Russell = most winning
Wilt = best stats, most dominant
Kareem = best longevity, 6 MVPs
Jordan = best scoring, never lost a finals
Lebron = best carrying a team

All of those guys have multiple titles, rings, MVPs, dominating stats (Russell would be rebounding and shot blocking if it was tracked), and have been called the GOAT by plenty of people throughout time.

Magic and Bird were hurt by having their careers shortened.
:cheers:

['Toine=MVP]

Yes you can. But if you want to say Bird is on the same level as Magic, then fine. But if you bring Bird in, then you also have Duncan, Shaq and Kobe.

So okay, drop Magic from the list.

Bill Russell = most winning
Wilt = best stats, most dominant
Kareem = best longevity, 6 MVPs
Jordan = best scoring, never lost a finals
Lebron = best carrying a team

All of those guys have multiple titles, rings, MVPs, dominating stats (Russell would be rebounding and shot blocking if it was tracked), and have been called the GOAT by plenty of people throughout time.

Magic and Bird were hurt by having their careers shortened.

There is some validity to each of these being category leaders let's say. But the problem is that if someone was #2 in all those categories (there isn't such a person), that person would definitely be the GOAT and not in this tier 1.

To me it is pretty clear Bird is the #2 GOAT to Jordan mainly because he was the 2nd greatest but mostly in ways somewhat similar to Jordan. He's just behind him in too many things to be considered better than Jordan.

[Leviathon1121]

actually Lebron was a great peak defender just didn't do it over a long period of time. Remember he has 2 2nd place finishes for dpoy.
In another couple years there will be so many gifs of his lazy, pathetic defense that nobody going to remember he had a season, or two, of chase down blocks.

['Toine=MVP]

Don't mistake me not going in depth as being confused, Mj gets criteria spun and flipped to stay in his favor constantly:oldlol: I used to do the same thing myself when i was younger and had idols. About Shaq and Kareem of course it's not an exact 1:1 comparison but we know Kareem was still Kareem for at least half the Laker titles, While having Magic by his side. But you are totally correct about people not really having standards and winging it.


You are confused if you think people are twisting their way into ranking Jordan #1.

The people that twist his legacy is by trying to say he didn't win as much as Russell or have the career numbers of Kareem or peak stats of Wilt, etc.

But that is just a strawman because no one claims Jordan is the greatest because he put up the best stats or had the most wins or played the longest.

Those are all nice categories to be ranked highly in, but none really get to the main greatness categories.

['Toine=MVP]

You have to use all three factors. Eye test, rings and stats, in that order. If you take almost any game anywhere and there wasnt a stat sheet, score or trophies you would still know who the best player on the floor was. There's a reason why scouts still go to multiple games of prospects when evaluating them.


This is a bad way of breaking it down.

Greatness has to be broken down into two parts and both are subjective:

Part 1: How would a player do if he played in different eras (mainly variations of modern eras) with the training and coaching strategies of those eras?

The things we look at very closely to get an answer to part 1 are things like the eye test, rings (but also the flip side like counting major failures), and stats (also projected stats), probably in that order as you said. But those are just sub categories. We can be pretty confident that Bird in today's era would have been at least in the running for the 2nd best 3 point shooter to Steph, but he didn't shoot a ton of 3s in his era because of the strategies of the day.

Part 2 (more important than Part 1): What was the net positive impact this player had on the sport and legacy of professional basketball (counting ABA and NBA)?

Here we get a very different leader group. Guys like LeBron especially but also Kareem to some degree fall really really short in this important category. The top GOATs in this are Russell and Wilt, Bird and Magic, Jordan, and to some level Shaq. LeBron has a net negative rating as he was never a big star that made people excited about the NBA and also has a negative legacy in many ways (ushered in the FA superteam era).

[pauk]

It's not funny anymore. I try to debate who is goat but I get LeBron over Jordan cause stats. But I bring up harden and westbrook and somehow stats don't count. All fans need to get their sheet strait. It is silly.

What do you mean somehow? They have nowhere near the goods (accolades) to be in that discussion.... come on man, i know you aint stupid...

As far as the GOAT debate, you all know i like Lebron... but please, stop... MJ will never be surpassed, seemingly... through various criteria etc. Lebron is a bit more reasonable debate for being under MJ at the very best, if you are extremly kind to Russell/Wilt then he is #4, he shouldnt be anywhere lower than #5 tho... those other guys just dont have the accolades enough (Shaq, Bird, Kobe, Shaq is the closest)... Magic Johnson is the absolute closest accolades wise, but Lebron has the longevity thing (he was just more prominent for longer)...

[sdot_thadon]

You are confused if you think people are twisting their way into ranking Jordan #1.

The people that twist his legacy is by trying to say he didn't win as much as Russell or have the career numbers of Kareem or peak stats of Wilt, etc.

But that is just a strawman because no one claims Jordan is the greatest because he put up the best stats or had the most wins or played the longest.

Those are all nice categories to be ranked highly in, but none really get to the main greatness categories.
nah, we're having a disconnect because I'm not saying any of the things you think I'm saying. I don't have clearcut Goat anymore but gun to my head I'm still saying Mj. It's just my thinking on the subject has evolved over time to the point i accept a couple other guys cases for goat. Mj is worthy of the title so no twisting needs to ever be done to validate it, the gymnastics come from the desperate need by fans to put him so far away from the others that there's no debate. The most wrongly spread thought about goat is there's a correct answer to the question. Yes there are laughable answers but how can you in good faith say Mj is goat beyond a shadow of doubt when you never saw Wilt in his prime aside from youtube highlights? Same for Russell and Kareem. When more than half of the top 5 played before most of us were even born how can there ever be a consensus?

[Bronbron23]

Well the eye test quite easily shows LeBron is the worst defender of a supposed GOAT candidate, and seeing as how defense is half of basketball that should automatically disqualify him. And one year of chase down blocks does not put you anywhere near the level of defense that a GOAT candidate such a Jordan put forth for a career.
I don't think LeBron is better than mj or even any of the goat candidates I mentioned I just put him up there because alot of people do and I think it's fairly close. Yes his defence is trash. No worse than magic though.

[Elosha]

It's not funny anymore. I try to debate who is goat but I get LeBron over Jordan cause stats. But I bring up harden and westbrook and somehow stats don't count. All fans need to get their sheet strait. It is silly.

Lebron's RS stats and playoff stats aren't really better than Jordan's and they are almost certainly bound to get lower the longer he plays. He's nowhere close to Jordan in terms of accomplishments, playoff performances, etc. He's not nearly the defender Jordan was, particularly when comparing them in their 30's. What's his case for GOAT again, as opposed to top 5-10? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

stats count when you compare Mj to Kareem/Russell, but not when comapring Lebron to Mj/Kobe etc.


Max Kellerman said MJ had higher PER, offensive efficiency, peak, ppg and other things

So no one said stats don't matter with lebron vs MJ, because stats are an advantage for MJ over lebron

You're just delusional and have made up your own truth about what is going on.. and Kareem is all-time scoring leader (same longevity achievement as lebron), so your argument contradicts itself anyway.





actually Lebron was a great peak defender just didn't do it over a long period of time. Remember he has 2 2nd place finishes for dpoy.


So longevity on defense doesn't matter? Only offense?

Lebron wasn't a great defender for most of his Finals

[bison]

Because you need a combo of stats/winning/individual accolades to be in the GOAT debate



I would add intangibles or cultural impact as a fourth criteria...guys who advanced the sport itself. Things like VC being the best in-game dunker or Drazen opening up the NBA to European players aren't things that are recorded in stats or accolades but figure into their all time rankings.

[SouBeachTalents]

This is a bad way of breaking it down.

Greatness has to be broken down into two parts and both are subjective:

Part 1: How would a player do if he played in different eras (mainly variations of modern eras) with the training and coaching strategies of those eras?

The things we look at very closely to get an answer to part 1 are things like the eye test, rings (but also the flip side like counting major failures), and stats (also projected stats), probably in that order as you said. But those are just sub categories. We can be pretty confident that Bird in today's era would have been at least in the running for the 2nd best 3 point shooter to Steph, but he didn't shoot a ton of 3s in his era because of the strategies of the day.

Part 2 (more important than Part 1): What was the net positive impact this player had on the sport and legacy of professional basketball (counting ABA and NBA)?

Here we get a very different leader group. Guys like LeBron especially but also Kareem to some degree fall really really short in this important category. The top GOATs in this are Russell and Wilt, Bird and Magic, Jordan, and to some level Shaq. LeBron has a net negative rating as he was never a big star that made people excited about the NBA and also has a negative legacy in many ways (ushered in the FA superteam era).
This dude always talks out his ass :oldlol:

Yeah, LeBron was never a big star in the league, regular Rudy Gay

['Toine=MVP]

nah, we're having a disconnect because I'm not saying any of the things you think I'm saying. I don't have clearcut Goat anymore but gun to my head I'm still saying Mj. It's just my thinking on the subject has evolved over time to the point i accept a couple other guys cases for goat. Mj is worthy of the title so no twisting needs to ever be done to validate it, the gymnastics come from the desperate need by fans to put him so far away from the others that there's no debate. The most wrongly spread thought about goat is there's a correct answer to the question. Yes there are laughable answers but how can you in good faith say Mj is goat beyond a shadow of doubt when you never saw Wilt in his prime aside from youtube highlights? Same for Russell and Kareem. When more than half of the top 5 played before most of us were even born how can there ever be a consensus?

Well that is a bit better than what it seemed like you were saying. But you are only asking how we can tell which player was more talented. We can tell a bit more about each player than simply trying to tell who is the most talented.

Players legacies are going to be dependent on the moment they are in. That is all part of it. Maybe if they 80s was like the current era, Magic Johnson would have followed LeBron's lead and joined the Celtics. Or maybe Jordan would have joined the Pistons or something. Could have happened, but it didn't happen and there are some good reasons to think those personalities wouldn't have done it.

We know Kareem disappeared during his peak while playing in the 2nd best professional basketball league. These things happened. He was considered "not Wilt" in his day. Just like Kobe was considered "not Jordan" in his era.

We know that Bird and Magic and later Jordan had a huge positive impact on the sport and were players that very few people were slamming as frauds or overrated etc during their peaks. We know that happened with Kobe and LeBron. Was it fair? Eh. Probably to some degree. Might it have happened to any player in this era of internet trolls? Maybe. But it didn't happen.

All this stuff goes into the greatness calculation. It isn't just about who had the most talent.

[sdot_thadon]

Max Kellerman said MJ had higher PER, offensive efficiency, peak, ppg and other things

So no one said stats don't matter with lebron vs MJ, because stats are an advantage for MJ over lebron

You're just delusional and have made up your own truth about what is going on.. and Kareem is all-time scoring leader (same longevity achievement as lebron), so your argument contradicts itself anyway.



So longevity on defense doesn't matter? Only offense?

Lebron wasn't a great defender for most of his Finals
This ain't a Jordan vs. Lebron thread pookie. You aint getting your fix here.
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WeightyFlawlessDipper-max-1mb.gif


And yeah there's a such thing as career, prime, and peak for any category of ball. You can figure out which is which in one of your meltdown reaction threads later tonight.

['Toine=MVP]

This dude always talks out his ass :oldlol:

Yeah, LeBron was never a big star in the league, regular Rudy Gay

The league has been desperate for a big star for years. Do you recall all the hype Steph was getting a few years ago? Slow motion commercials that people liked more than the show they were watching. People crowning him the best player in the league before it became obvious he was no where close to the best. LeBron was far far better (as was Durant and others), but it didn't matter. People were dying for a star. The NBA was dying to promote a star.

Coming LeBron to Rudy Gay is just dumb. I'm comparing his star power to peak star power of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, and a very very very tiny peak inflated star power of Steph.

Hell, people went crazy with Linsanity because they were desperate for someone to root for.

[sdot_thadon]

We know that Bird and Magic and later Jordan had a huge positive impact on the sport and were players that very few people were slamming as frauds or overrated etc during their peaks. We know that happened with Kobe and LeBron. Was it fair? Eh. Probably to some degree. Might it have happened to any player in this era of internet trolls? Maybe. But it didn't happen.

All this stuff goes into the greatness calculation. It isn't just about who had the most talent.
Kobe and Lebron had a positive impact on the sport as well. They were torch bearers like the others you mentioned. And people weren't slamming them because they didn't play in this era, you know this. What would we say if Lebron was out gambling during a playoff series when people wouldn't shut up about a studio session last week while he wasn't even active for the next game. What would we say if Lebron punched Hart in practice, or Kd told a story where Lebron called himself basketball jesus or bought Curry jewelry before a finals series? Nobody gives the same scrutiny to past greats as they do for current greats.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Besides longevity, not seeing the case for Lebron.

And Kareem actually has him beat there.

Jordan had better stats than Lebron (advanced metrics also in MJ's favor). Won twice as much. Had more skills. Fundamentally understood the game @ a level Bron neither reached or could grasp.

The only 4 guys with a case imo: Jordan/Russell/Kareem/Wilt

Kareem for longevity (he also won a lot and had good stats).
Wilt for numbers and dominance
Russell for sheer wins
Jordan for a combination of winning, numbers and dominance (statistically nobody is in "playoff MJ" class; we all know Wilt doesn't come close).

[sdot_thadon]

Besides longevity, not seeing the case for Lebron.

And Kareem actually has him beat there.

Jordan had better stats than Lebron (advanced metrics also in MJ's favor). Won twice as much. Had more skills. Fundamentally understood the game @ a level Bron neither reached or could grasp.

The only 4 guys with a case imo: Jordan/Russell/Kareem/Wilt

Kareem for longevity (he also won a lot and had good stats).
Wilt for numbers and dominance
Russell for sheer wins
Jordan for a combination of winning, numbers and dominance (statistically nobody is in "playoff MJ" class; we all know Wilt doesn't come close).
how is the bolded something you can even prove or quantify in any way? Kinda telling of your stance......

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

how is the bolded something you can even prove or quantify in any way? Kinda telling of your stance......

Because I don't have Lebron as GOAT, you highlighted that bit :oldlol:

Far as the "bold" goes?

I mean, if I have to explain why Jordan is more fundamentally sound to you...you probably haven't watched either enough. Period.

[3ball]

This dude always talks out his ass :oldlol:

Yeah, LeBron was never a big star in the league, regular Rudy Gay


Lebron had negative net rating in the 04' regular season, 06' playoffs, all his Finals losses, the 2013 Finals (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/advanced/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4), and the 4th quarters (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4) of this season

Yes, lebron was carried to the 2013 Finals victory despite being a net negative himself.. that's pathetic..

he's not top 5 all-time - that's already becoming consensus after this season's debacle, and after a few more years of LeDecline, he'll be out of the top 10

[4pointshot]

Max Kellerman said MJ had higher PER, offensive efficiency, peak, ppg and other things

So no one said stats don't matter with lebron vs MJ, because stats are an advantage for MJ over lebron

No they aren't:

PER
1. Jordan 27.91
2. James 27.60

Win Shares
4. James 225.77 (and counting)
5. Jordan 214.02

Box +/-
1. James 9.13
2. Jordan 8.60

VORP
1. James 128.89 (and counting)
2. Jordan 104.43

[sdot_thadon]

Because I don't have Lebron as GOAT, you highlighted that bit :oldlol:

Far as the "bold" goes?

I mean, if I have to explain why Jordan is more fundamentally sound to you...you probably haven't watched either enough. Period.
you can have whoever you choose your preference is pretty clear and i don't have an axe to grind either way. i pointed out the bolded because fundamental understanding of the game is a broad term and i dont agree. fundamental skills? sure have at it. fundamental understanding? cant quantify that bro.

[3ball]

No they aren't:

PER
1. Jordan 27.91
2. James 27.60

Win Shares
4. James 225.77 (and counting)
5. Jordan 214.02

Box +/-
1. James 9.13
2. Jordan 8.60

VORP
1. James 128.89 (and counting)
2. Jordan 104.43
You posted total win shares, which is meaningless (longevity-based)

MJ leads in average win shares (ws/48)

Only MJ is top 2 all-time in VORP, BPM, WS/48, and PER for regular season and playoffs..... And he set the record for plus-minus.. so MJ owns the advanced stats easily... :confusedshrug:

[knicksman]

rings should have the highest weight and it should factor how you won it. Was it a ringchaser or role player or the man. Stats are deceiving coz players can statpad.

[4pointshot]

You posted total win shares, which is meaningless (longevity-based)

You may think counting stats are meaningless, but most people don't. Durability matters. Yes, Jordan retired twice, or he would have had a lot more, but James isn't done yet, either.

But let's accommodate your point. Through age 29 (when MJ retired the first time), James had more WS than Jordan, 168-147. Yes, he entered the NBA two years earlier, and if you start them at the same age, they are about even; but those extra years also mean more wear and tear down the road. Through age 34, when MJ retired the second time, he had 202 WS. Give him 30 WS for the nearly two seasons he missed playing baseball, and he's at a little over 230, slightly above where James is now at age 34. But keep in mind that in this exercise, Jordan gets those WS for free. He doesn't experience the wear and tear that would result if he had actually played those two years.


MJ leads in average win shares (ws/48)

Again, a rate stat that doesn't take into account the length of the career. At their peaks, age 24-29, James's WS/48 was similar to MJ's. It has declined as he has continued to play, as Jordan's would have if he had continued to play. Jordan may have benefitted from the two years off, as his WS/48 had started to decline before baseball, and came back up after. In any case, Jordan retired the second time at age 34 when he had played about 930 games, and it was evident then that he was declining, as his WS/48 was his worst since his early years (not counting the few games he played when he returned from baseball). James reached that workload several years ago, and has been declining ever since.

So while you discount counting stats because James has played more games, you don't take into account that Jordan's rate stats are better in good part because he didn't play as many years while in decline, nor did he accelerate that decline by playing more games when he was younger.


Only MJ is top 2 all-time in VORP, BPM, WS/48, and PER for regular season and playoffs..... And he set the record for plus-minus.. so MJ owns the advanced stats easily..[/COLOR][/I]. :confusedshrug:[/B]

But James is ahead of him in VORP and BPM, barely trails him in PER, and is high in WS48.

My point is not that James is the GOAT. It's that it's really close, and stats don't easily show that Jordan is better. You can have a good argument either way.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

you can have whoever you choose your preference is pretty clear and i don't have an axe to grind either way. i pointed out the bolded because fundamental understanding of the game is a broad term and i dont agree. fundamental skills? sure have at it. fundamental understanding? cant quantify that bro.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Lebron does things better, sure. Its mostly because of his build though.

Moving off the ball. Having the correct hand in passing lanes. Total control with angles (in the post, triplethreat, moving without the ball, or even just hitting freethrows). Mike was simply the more fundamental player, coupled with a higher in-game iq. Nothing he did was stagnant but everything was with a purpose. Quick and to the fukking point. And that's not a knock on Lebron. Jordan was faster than Kobe in that regard too. MJ's ability to adjust to a team offense, unlike Lebron who, for the most part is his team offense, I believe stemmed from playing college ball.

One of my favorite takeways about MJ is actually from Kenny Smith:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4G3Eirm3uU

I can break this down at a macro and even micro level. Simply watching the 2 play should be enough though.

[nayte]

What do you mean somehow? They have nowhere near the goods (accolades) to be in that discussion.... come on man, i know you aint stupid...

As far as the GOAT debate, you all know i like Lebron... but please, stop... MJ will never be surpassed, seemingly... through various criteria etc. Lebron is a bit more reasonable debate for being under MJ at the very best, if you are extremly kind to Russell/Wilt then he is #4, he shouldnt be anywhere lower than #5 tho... those other guys just dont have the accolades enough (Shaq, Bird, Kobe, Shaq is the closest)... Magic Johnson is the absolute closest accolades wise, but Lebron has the longevity thing (he was just more prominent for longer)...

Nah I don't believe that. I brought this up cause I have two new younger guys on my staff that I talk ball with and they use lebrons rebounds and assists as their reasoning for LeBron over Jordan. Which I don't really care who is goat I just like a good debate about it and lazy reasoning deserves the same in reply.

[FKAri]

Nah I don't believe that. I brought this up cause I have two new younger guys on my staff that I talk ball with and they use lebrons rebounds and assists as their reasoning for LeBron over Jordan. Which I don't really care who is goat I just like a good debate about it and lazy reasoning deserves the same in reply.
If they haven't watched MJ play then their opinion is irrelevant. I don't talk about guys I haven't watched play. I caught the tail end of Kareem so I don't talk about him either.

[nayte]

Lebron's RS stats and playoff stats aren't really better than Jordan's and they are almost certainly bound to get lower the longer he plays. He's nowhere close to Jordan in terms of accomplishments, playoff performances, etc. He's not nearly the defender Jordan was, particularly when comparing them in their 30's. What's his case for GOAT again, as opposed to top 5-10? :confusedshrug:

I'm not saying LeBron is goat but plenty do. This thread was me annoyed at some people's reasonings when talking about this topic.. Those people being some kids at my work

[nayte]

If they haven't watched MJ play then their opinion is irrelevant. I don't talk about guys I haven't watched play. I caught the tail end of Kareem so I don't talk about him either.

Ha they even use the milkman reference that some of the people here use against jordan

[FKAri]

Ha they even use the milkman reference that some of the people here use against jordan
To be honest I love pointing out things like how a grocery bagger dunked on MJ, MJ's trainer's name being linked with steroid rumors, MJ's admitted statpadding, etc. I enjoy seeing 3ball's HTML-heavy meltdowns. Though, he usually just ends up talking about Lebron :oldlol:

[red1]

1. mj
2. lbj
3. kaj

[egokiller]

If they haven't watched MJ play then their opinion is irrelevant. I don't talk about guys I haven't watched play. I caught the tail end of Kareem so I don't talk about him either.

This

[tpols]

1. mj
2. mj
3. kobe.


fixed.

[red1]

fixed.
1.mj
2.lbj
3.kaj

4.shaq
5.magic
6.bird
7.duncan
8.hakeem

12.kobe



Not sure who 9,10,11 are going to be just know kobe's going to fit right in at 12. Perfect spot for him really.

[nayte]

To be honest I love pointing out things like how a grocery bagger dunked on MJ, MJ's trainer's name being linked with steroid rumors, MJ's admitted statpadding, etc. I enjoy seeing 3ball's HTML-heavy meltdowns. Though, he usually just ends up talking about Lebron :oldlol:

I suppose it depends if I'm having a debate or just talking sheit with mates. I will use those Jordan things and the delonte things for a laugh
3balls ability to turn any convo into a LeBron v Jordan is truly an amazing achievement. I don't care about any player enough to put in that much effort.. Lol.

[Marchesk]

3balls ability to turn any convo into a LeBron v Jordan is truly an amazing achievement. I don't care about any player enough to put in that much effort.. Lol.

It would be even more amazing if it's some player nobody ever talks about like Bernard King.

[72-10]

It would be even more amazing if it's some player nobody ever talks about like Bernard King.

There's certainly ppl on here who know more about Bernard King than myself, but the reason he's probably not brought up more is that he was a bit more one-dimensional than most of the atg most prolific scorers, though his boards were there sometimes, I think he tended to drive the paint a lot, and his defense was lacking.

[Marchesk]

There's certainly ppl on here who know more about Bernard King than myself, but the reason he's probably not brought up more is that he was a bit more one-dimensional than most of the atg most prolific scorers, though his boards were there sometimes, I think he tended to drive the paint a lot, and his defense was lacking.

Yeah, it's not the best example. Elgin Baylor or Dr. J would be better to use. If we had a super Dr stan who always came up with arguments for how Erving was better than Lebron, that would be humorous.

Someone once did use Bernard King in an argument with me about how the GOAT is totally subjective, which I disagreed with. There's no argument for King over Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, etc. But they thought there was.

[72-10]

Yeah, it's not the best example. Elgin Baylor or Dr. J would be better to use. If we had a super Dr stan who always came up with arguments for how Erving was better than Lebron, that would be humorous.

Someone once did use Bernard King in an argument with me about how the GOAT is totally subjective, which I disagreed with. There's no argument for King over Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, etc. But they thought there was.

As far as King's 84-85 season is concerned, he did lead the league in scoring average (though Jordan led in points scored and was a better all-around player, and of course Bird was the best player in the league at the time), but there's not much that is statistically outstanding about his season outside of the 60 point game at Madison Square Garden, where he scored an MSG record 40 points in the first half. The 60 and the first half points were both stadium record, but I think Kobe broke it in February 2009 IIRC.

[FKAri]

There's certainly ppl on here who know more about Bernard King than myself, but the reason he's probably not brought up more is that he was a bit more one-dimensional than most of the atg most prolific scorers, though his boards were there sometimes, I think he tended to drive the paint a lot, and his defense was lacking.
Bernard King didn't have a lot of moves but the ones he did have were deadly. Dude's gotten so underrated now.

[72-10]

Bernard King didn't have a lot of moves but the ones he did have were deadly. Dude's gotten so underrated now.

Every time he's discussed they always point out his lack of defense as a main reason why he didn't get in earlier. He toasted the Pistons in the 84 playoffs, though.

[nayte]

It would be even more amazing if it's some player nobody ever talks about like Bernard King.

OK I'm setting you that challenge. Let's see what u can come up with

[3ball]

.
Accomplishments that only MJ has


- only player with 4+ fmvp (he has 6)
- only player at 30/5/5 for regular season... and playoffs... and Finals
- a record 10 scoring titles and all-time leader in PPG by wide margin (best raw stats)
- only player that is top 2 in career PER, VORP, BPM, WS/48 for regular season and playoffs (best advanced stats)
- most seasons with 1st team all-nba and 1st team all-defense (9) and most consecutive (9) (most dominant)
- #1 all-time championship frequency since the 3-point line began - 6 in 15 yrs or 40% (best team stats)
- only MVP to win 70+ and the championship (top individual and team accomplishment)
- only all-time great that was never outscored by a teammate in a playoff series, and MJ led team by an average margin of 15.4 ppg over 2nd option (biggest burden/defensive attention)
- only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with only 1 all-star teammate (won with the least), except Shaq (who had Kobe), and Hakeem (when MJ was out of league)
- only top 10 player to never lose as the 1 or 2 seed (most unbeatable player).. i.e. kareem lost 9 times, magic/lebron/bird 6 each; MJ was 6-0
- only player to win scoring title & dpoy in same season (88')
- only player to win MVP and dpoy in same season (88')
- only perimeter player to win scoring title and title in same season (6 times)
- only player to sweep all 3 MVP's, scoring title, 1st team all-D and ring in same season (96' and 98')
- Best winning stats ever - 33.7 ppg and 6.6 apg in 91-93' PO (27.2 and 7.2 for lebron in 12/13/16' PO)
- Best losing stats ever - 44 ppg against champion 86' celtics and their #1 defense, and 37/7/7 in 90' PO
.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

.
Accomplishments that only MJ has


- only player with 4+ fmvp (he has 6)
- only player at 30/5/5 for regular season... and playoffs... and Finals
- a record 10 scoring titles and all-time leader in PPG by wide margin (best raw stats)
- only player that is top 2 in career PER, VORP, BPM, WS/48 for regular season and playoffs (best advanced stats)
- most seasons with 1st team all-nba and 1st team all-defense (9), and most consecutive (9) (most dominant)
- #1 all-time championship frequency since the 3-point line began - 6 in 15 yrs or 40% (best team stats)
- only MVP to win 70+ and the championship (top individual and team accomplishment)
- only all-time great that was never outscored by a teammate in a playoff series, and MJ led team by an average margin of 15.4 ppg over 2nd option (biggest burden/defensive attention)
- only MJ/Kobe won multiple rings with only 1 all-star teammate (won with the least), except Shaq (who had Kobe), and Hakeem (when MJ was out of league)
- only top 10 player to never lose as the 1 or 2 seed (most unbeatable player).. i.e. kareem lost 9 times, magic/lebron/bird 6 each; MJ was 6-0
- only player to win scoring title & dpoy in same season (88')
- only player to win MVP and dpoy in same season (88')
- only perimeter player to win scoring title and title in same season (6 times)
- only player to sweep all 3 MVP's, scoring title, 1st team all-D and ring in same season (96' and 98')
- Best winning stats ever - 33.7 ppg and 6.6 apg in 91-93' PO (27.2 and 7.2 for lebron in 12/13/16' PO)
- Best losing stats ever - 44 ppg against champion 86' celtics and their #1 defense, and 37/7/7 in 90' PO
.





All of this is true, but this debate is meaningless.
GOAT = Team accomplishments + individual stats - bad losses / missed playoffs during prime.
That's how I look at it anyway.


That's why I have KAJ at #2 - 4 finals losses including the 83' sweep by Phila, missing the playoffs in the 70's during his peak twice. Plus "old man" rings as the 4th best player (87/88) - only 3 FMVPs.


Lebron = great stats, great player. Too many shrinking violet moments. 2007 awful finals numbers, 2010 quit, 2011 huge meltdown, 2014 air conditioner / geriatric Spurs team beating them, 2015 Game 4-6 chokejob, 2017-2018 only winning 1 finals game in 9 tries, and now the 2019 first year in the west = no playoff push.


It's over folks, and really ended after 2011.

[Soundwave]

When there is a player better than Jordan, you will know it because it will be obvious. He will win 6 or more titles as the no.1 option.

You won't have to do all the stupid mental gymnastics you have to do to make LeBron it.

If your guy is the goat he doesn't need you to build a case for him, it's self evident to everyone by what he does on the court. Period.

Stop trying so damn hard.

[nayte]

When there is a player better than Jordan, you will know it because it will be obvious. He will win 6 or more titles as the no.1 option.

You won't have to do all the stupid mental gymnastics you have to do to make LeBron it.

If your guy is the goat he doesn't need you to build a case for him, it's self evident to everyone by what he does on the court. Period.

Stop trying so damn hard.

Nice take. I like it. Except the 6 rings part. I seem to remember Jordan being considered goat after 3 rings. So to me that doesn't play a big part