What seasons of MJ's career is peak Kobe better than?

[Milbuck]

Whatever year you think was Kobe's peak..01, 03, 06, 08, 09, whatever. Which seasons of Jordan's career was Kobe's peak better?

[Vino24]

05/06 season is definitely better than 2nd 3peat Jordan

[Manny98]

86,86,87,95,98,02,03

[Smoke117]

The two Wizards seasons.

[Smoke117]

09 Wade is better than a few Jordan Bulls seasons, though.

[sdot_thadon]

probably 06 kobe over 95 on for Mj and Kobe 08-10 just behind the 2nd 3peat Mj.

[kennethgriffen]

2001, 2002, 2003 kobe is on par with any version of MJ

2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 are better than any version of MJ


difference is jordan didnt get forced into feeding another guy in the finals to make him happy

and jordan always had a contending team during his absolute prime

had shaq not threatened to let people score and if the 2006/2007 lakers had a 2nd allstar then kobe probably has 7 rings and 5-6 finals mvps


jordan had the better career because of circumstances that benefited him individually


they both have the same point per shot. kobe was more skilled offensively. jordan was slightly better defensively


sometimes luck can make or break a persons goat status

[3ball]

.
Jordan had better stats:



JORDAN 1996-1998 REG SEASON:. 29.6 ppg.. 48.2% fg.. 2 MVP
BRYANT 2008-2010 REG SEASON:. 27.4 ppg.. 46.1% fg.. 1 MVP


JORDAN 1996-1998 PLAYOFFS:. 31.4 ppg.. 45.9% fg
BRYANT 2008-2010 PLAYOFFS:. 29.8 ppg.. 46.4% fg


JORDAN 1996-1998 FINALS:. 31.1 ppg.. 43.4% fg.. 3 championships.. 3 FMVP's
BRYANT 2008-2010 FINALS:. 29.2 ppg.. 41.3% fg.. 2 championships.. 2 FMVP's


Source: basketball-reference.com



Despite carrying a much bigger load:



............PERCENTAGE OF TEAM POINTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

KOBE 2008....... 31.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 41.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
KOBE 2009....... 32.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 35.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 36.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2010....... 32.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 37.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 37.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


And at no stage in Kobe's career did he match MJ's goat offensive efficiency (ortg or PER), or combination of burdeniency combination (usage/ortg)

[SouBeachTalents]

2001, 2002, 2003 kobe is on par with any version of MJ

2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 are better than any version of MJ


difference is jordan didnt get forced into feeding another guy in the finals to make him happy

and jordan always had a contending team during his absolute prime

had shaq not threatened to let people score and if the 2006/2007 lakers had a 2nd allstar then kobe probably has 7 rings and 5-6 finals mvps


jordan had the better career because of circumstances that benefited him individually


they both have the same point per shot. kobe was more skilled offensively. jordan was slightly better defensively


sometimes luck can make or break a persons goat status
:oldlol: 88-93 Jordan shits on those years

[NBAGOAT]

I'll say peak Kobe is 06 or 08 and 03 has a decent but weaker argument.

not 88-93. Not 96. I lean no on 97, 50/50 on 87 and yes on 98. 98 feels like a 09 kobe type thing where yea he won a title and carried hard but it just wasnt his other years. 09 kobe isnt his peak imo so peak Kobe is better. 97 isnt THAT far off from 96, think it's too good a year. 87 feels interchangeable with something like 06 Kobe so I'm just not tii sure. Besides that 85 and wizards years are pretty much his only full seasons so it's not a lot..

[kennethgriffen]

:oldlol: 88-93 Jordan shits on those years


i didnt say kobe had a better season. i said he was a better player


wilt had better seasons than either of mj or kobe but hes not a better player than either



put kobe in jordans body with all his physical advantages then place him in the late 80s where no other human could match up with him


its basically a prime lebron effect


kobe in either body and era would be infinitely better

[SouBeachTalents]

i didnt say kobe had a better season. i said he was a better player


wilt had better seasons than either of mj or kobe but hes not a better player than either



put kobe in jordans body with all his physical advantages then place him in the late 80s where no other human could match up with him


its basically a prime lebron effect


kobe in either body and era would be infinitely better
I wasn't even referring to the outcome of those years, I was referring to them as players

[Mask the Embiid]

Kobe's peak was better than Jordan, not even close really.


i have no horse in the race....everyone knows this....imma lebron fan i hate both of their fan bases

[tontoz]

MJ had 4 straight seasons with a TS over 60%. Kobe's best TS ever was 58%.

MJ had 9 seasons averaging over 6 rebounds per game. Kobe had 3.

MJ for his career averaged 2.3 steals per game. Kobe averaged over 2 steals only one season.

MJ averaged over 30 ppg for 8 seasons. Kobe did it 3 times.

MJ was routinely better than peak Kobe.

[kennethgriffen]

I wasn't even referring to the outcome of those years, I was referring to them as players


all jordan had on kobe was bigger hands, more physical/athletic advantages over his eras defenders and slightly better on ball defense


he was a better leader earlier on too i guess. but kobe had the killer mentality and was bigger in the playoffs at a younger age. i think kobe was the better talent. i dont care that MJ had the better career or more people think he was better than kobe. its a personal preference

[kennethgriffen]

MJ had 4 straight seasons with a TS over 60%. Kobe's best TS ever was 58%.

MJ had 9 seasons averaging over 6 rebounds per game. Kobe had 3.

MJ for his career averaged 2.3 steals per game. Kobe averaged over 2 steals only one season.

MJ averaged over 30 ppg for 8 seasons. Kobe did it 3 times.

MJ was routinely better than peak Kobe.


sounds like a lebron argument lol


wilt > everyone i guess

[Smoke117]

all jordan had on kobe was bigger hands, more physical/athletic advantages over his eras defenders and slightly better on ball defense


he was a better leader earlier on too i guess. but kobe had the killer mentality and was bigger in the playoffs at a younger age. i think kobe was the better talent. i dont care that MJ had the better career or more people think he was better than kobe. its a personal preference

It's really not if you actually know anything about basketball.

[Vino24]

eye test says Kobe was better

[knicksman]

It's really not if you actually know anything about basketball.

I guess youre smarter than phil coz those 2 are a coin flip for him? LOL smoke

[Milbuck]

So seems the general consensus is '87-'93 MJ >>>>>>> Kobe, and '96 MJ >> Kobe as well.

After that is where it gets tricky, '97 is for sure better IMO. I think '98 MJ vs. Kobe is a wash, arguable either way. Kobe gets the nod over Wizards Jordan and '85, '86, '95.

[SouBeachTalents]

I guess youre smarter than phil coz those 2 are a coin flip for him? LOL smoke
https://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/2013/05/17/phil-jackson-michael-jordan-was-better-leader-shooter-and-defender-than-kobe-bryant

[MrFonzworth]

It's really not if you actually know anything about basketball.
Bodied.

[knicksman]

https://www.si.com/nba/point-forward/2013/05/17/phil-jackson-michael-jordan-was-better-leader-shooter-and-defender-than-kobe-bryant

and? phil already said they were a coin flip. so whats your point?

[MJistheGOAT]

Wizards geriatric MJ and rusty 95 one.
Maybe rookie and 86 versions.
87-93, 96, 97 and yes 98 no chance

[4pointshot]

None, actually. Kobe topped 15 WS, barely, only once, in 2005-2006. That was also his highest WS/48, at .224. MJ topped Kobe’s best WS total ten times, and bettered Kobe’s best WS/48 nine times. Also led the NBA in both five years in a row; Kobe never led the NBA in either stat. Similar story with PER. Kobe’s best in 2005-06 was bettered ten times by MJ, who led the NBA in that stat seven times in a row.

[AussieSteve]

2001, 2002, 2003 kobe is on par with any version of MJ

2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 are better than any version of MJ


difference is jordan didnt get forced into feeding another guy in the finals to make him happy

and jordan always had a contending team during his absolute prime

had shaq not threatened to let people score and if the 2006/2007 lakers had a 2nd allstar then kobe probably has 7 rings and 5-6 finals mvps


jordan had the better career because of circumstances that benefited him individually


they both have the same point per shot. kobe was more skilled offensively. jordan was slightly better defensively


sometimes luck can make or break a persons goat status

No one actually believes any of this. Not even you deep down. You just want it to be true.

No version of kobe was as good as first threepeat Jordan.

And luck!? Kobe was the greatest beneficiary of luck of any atg in the modern era. When did Jordan, or any other top 20 player for that matter, get to share the court with someone as dominant as peak shaq?

Any perennial all star level perimeter player ends up with at least three rings next to shaq. Most probably end up with 4 because they dont shoot at 32% in games 3,4 and 5 of the 2004 finals.

Facts.

[72-10]

last two wit the Wiz

85-86 doesn't count, right?

maybe better than the rookie, might buy it

[game3524]

Peak Kobe is better then 2nd three peat Jordan. 88-93 Jordan is better then any version of Kobe though.

[72-10]

There's no way his peak was better than second threepeat Jordan.

[game3524]

There's no way his peak was better than second threepeat Jordan.

Yeah it was, especially 1997-98.

[Celtics 1825]

05-06 > 84-85, 96-97, 97-98, 01-02, 02-03 (I'm gonna exempt 85-86 and 94-95 since he barely played)

[72-10]

Yeah it was, especially 1997-98.

Well, Jordan's teams set league records for winning and won championships those years, while Kobe's stagnant offense teams revolving around Kobe running isos struggled to make the playoffs and saw first-round exits. Jordan relied on a mid-range fadeaway for most of his offense and made almost half of his shots from midrange those years. Meanwhile, Kobe in his prime shot like 45% from the field and probably like 35% on his mid-range fades. He was a brickfest. He was a gun. He shot his team out of some games.

Also, MJ had honed his post game and it was therefore at its peak skill level those years, too, especially by 97-98.

[Indian guy]

Better than 85-87 for sure.

I think he's right there with 88-90 in terms of game-impact, even if the numbers aren't really in Kobe's favor.

[Smoke117]

I think he's right there with 88-90 in terms of game-impact, even if the numbers aren't really in Kobe's favor.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

Peak Kobe doesn't come close to having the impact of an 88-90 Jordan. A Jordan who led the league in BPM, Vorp, and Winshares at levels Kobe never came close to.

[game3524]

Well, Jordan's teams set league records for winning and won championships those years, while Kobe's stagnant offense teams revolving around Kobe running isos struggled to make the playoffs and saw first-round exits. Jordan relied on a mid-range fadeaway for most of his offense and made almost half of his shots from midrange those years. Meanwhile, Kobe in his prime shot like 45% from the field and probably like 35% on his mid-range fades. He was a brickfest. He was a gun. He shot his team out of some games.

Also, MJ had honed his post game and it was therefore at its peak skill level those years, too, especially by 97-98.

Kobe took a team with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton and led them to be the 8th best offense in the NBA. That is amazing IMO.

Also Kobe's efficiency was fine. 56 TS% on that kind of volume is insane. I will say 1996 and 1997 MJ was a more consistent defender, but offensively I don't think he is on par with peak Kobe.

[72-10]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

Peak Kobe doesn't come close to having the impact of an 88-90 Jordan. A Jordan who led the league in BPM, Vorp, and Winshares at levels Kobe never came close to.

Agreed. MJ seemed to really step up to a new level in 88. In fact, Kobe's lucky if his best season is even on par with Jordan's unbelievable rookie season. Bobby Knight, who coached Michael on the 84 Olympics squad, had already called Michael the greatest basketball player he had ever coached. That's in 84.

While Kobe had a lot of skill and emulated MJ's style, he was still never the all-around player that Michael was. 84-85 MJ was a fantastic all-around player that brought an impact to every aspect of the basketball game.

Kobe gunned for stats in his prime. If you think Kobe's 05-06 season is as good as Michael's 86-87, pretty clearly the worst out of the 7-year prime, and sometimes referred as the gun year, it's not. Jordan shot the ball better and contributed everywhere on the court more.

[72-10]

Kobe took a team with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton and let them to be the 8th best offense in the NBA. That is amazing IMO.

Also Kobe's efficiency was fine. 56 TS% on that kind of volume is insane. I will say 1996 and 1997 MJ was a more consistent defender, but offensively I don't think he is on par with peak Kobe.

Kobe shot worse from the field than the rest of his team. I'm not sure if there's even one Bulls year MJ did that.

[game3524]

Kobe shot worse from the field than the rest of his team. I'm not sure if there's even one Bulls year MJ did that.

lol, imagine using FG% percentage to judge players today.

The Lakers team TS% was 54%, while Kobe's was 56%. Kobe's efficiency was just fine, especially given the volume.

[72-10]

lol, imagine using FG% percentage to judge players today.

The Lakers team TS% was 54%, while Kobe's was 56%. Kobe's efficiency was just fine, especially given the volume.

Since MJ and Kobe play the same position on the court, with similar style of play, yes, you can compare the FG% of the team to the FG% of the two players in question in this one outstanding case.

Kobe shot more threes, but that doesn't make up the huge gap.

It suggests that it was actually okay for MJ to shoot as much as he did despite being a guard, even though we know that's not good team basketball.

[kennethgriffen]

Since MJ and Kobe play the same position on the court, with similar style of play, yes, you can compare the FG% of the team to the FG% of the two players in question in this one outstanding case.

Kobe shot more threes, but that doesn't make up the huge gap.

It suggests that it was actually okay for MJ to shoot as much as he did despite being a guard, even though we know that's not good team basketball.


actually kobes 3 pointers and ability to draw fouls did make up the gap


up until his achilles injury he had the same point per shot as MJ for his career at 1.30

[72-10]

actually kobes 3 pointers and ability to draw fouls did make up the gap


up until his achilles injury he had the same point per shot as MJ for his career at 1.30

wow:rolleyes:

[Milbuck]

Better than 85-87 for sure.

I think he's right there with 88-90 in terms of game-impact, even if the numbers aren't really in Kobe's favor.
Understatement of the year. It's not even remotely close, not sure why you think he has more 'game-impact'.

[game3524]

Since MJ and Kobe play the same position on the court, with similar style of play, yes, you can compare the FG% of the team to the FG% of the two players in question in this one outstanding case.

Kobe shot more threes, but that doesn't make up the huge gap.

It suggests that it was actually okay for MJ to shoot as much as he did despite being a guard, even though we know that's not good team basketball.

This is dumb.

No one uses FG% percentage to judge efficiency anymore. 2nd three peat Jordan wasn't more efficient then peak Kobe.

96-98 Jordan: 30 ppg 56% TS

06-08 Kobe: 32 ppg 57% TS

MJ was +2.6 over league average during 96-98, while Kobe was +3.2 over league average.

Seriously, using FG% in 2019.:oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

06-08 Kobe?

Better than rookie MJ. 86/98/Wiz years.

You could argue 87 because his jumper wasn't what it became (not bad either), but I'd still take Mike because of his finishing ability.

[SamuraiSWISH]

06-08 Kobe?

Better than rookie MJ. 86/98/Wiz years.

You could argue 87 because his jumper wasn't what it became (not bad either), but I'd still take Mike because of his finishing ability.
This and I

[72-10]

This is dumb.

No one uses FG% percentage to judge efficiency anymore. 2nd three peat Jordan wasn't more efficient then peak Kobe.

96-98 Jordan: 30 ppg 56% TS

06-08 Kobe: 32 ppg 57% TS

MJ was +2.6 over league average during 96-98, while Kobe was +3.2 over league average.

Seriously, using FG% in 2019.:oldlol:

OK, I might say Kobe's prime, such as 06 Kobe, or even if we were to take a three-year stretch, 06-08, was better than 98 MJ, which wasn't as good as 96 or 97 MJ. I might say that, if MJ's teams weren't winning at a historic rate. But I have to factor that in a bit. That's how MVP voting works, after all. MJ wasn't hitting as much from mid-range as he had been the two previous years.

[Mr.GOAT2408]

I'd take peak Kobe (basically 06-09, leaning towards 08) over 85-87 (that MJ was mainly just a finisher + injured in 86 + still raw), 95 (rust), 97-98 (old age but this one is debatable), and 02-03 (no explanation)

Don't think 88 or 89 were that much better, but 90-96 MJ was on a higher tier. Rust and the fact that he showed some visible decline after 96 is why I'd consider taking peak Kobe over those iterations but it's a toss up especially with 97.

No one touches 90 - 96 healthy MJ as far as I'm concerned :bowdown:

[SamuraiSWISH]

[72-10]

I'd take peak Kobe (basically 06-09, leaning towards 08) over 85-87 (that MJ was mainly just a finisher + injured in 86 + still raw), 95 (rust), 97-98 (old age but this one is debatable), and 02-03 (no explanation)

Don't think 88 or 89 were that much better, but 90-96 MJ was on a higher tier. Rust and the fact that he showed some visible decline after 96 is why I'd consider taking peak Kobe over those iterations but it's a toss up especially with 97.

No one touches 90 - 96 healthy MJ as far as I'm concerned :bowdown:

He got 40 37 times dude. The stats are too good. Estan loco.

[egokiller]

The only time anyone would choose another player over MJ in any era is when MJ was a Wizard. You can make an argument for a prime Shaq, but that's about it.

[plowking]

08-10 is similar to 96-98.

[julizaver]

all jordan had on kobe was bigger hands, more physical/athletic advantages over his eras defenders and slightly better on ball defense he was a better leader earlier on too i guess. but kobe had the killer mentality and was bigger in the playoffs at a younger age. i think kobe was the better talent. i dont care that MJ had the better career or more people think he was better than kobe. its a personal preference

That's because you did not watch MJ and you are too young. Every generation has his own idols and always will bring the argument that the game develops and that the athletes are always better today. That's why I predicted few years ago after MJ retires in 2003 that in ten years time there will be young people claiming Kobe was better just because they did not watch MJ play (I mean Bulls b.

I have watched both players in their primes - Kobe never reached prime MJs level. And it is the eye test. That's why I can argue only with people who saw both players in their primes - but to be honest even Lakers fans who (my age or higher) admits that MJ was better player than Kobe in their primes. You need to be blind to think otherwise. Also it is not like MJ and Kobe did not share some minutes on the court together. Old MJ was like a mentor to young Kobe.
Off course prime Kobe was better than MJs last two season with the Wizards.
To all those who considered Kobe better overall than MJ just ask old Lakers fans (older than 40) about their opinion.

[ImKobe]

08-10 Kobe is on the same level/slightly higher than 2nd 3-Peat MJ, no one compares to 91-93 MJ so it shouldn't even be a debate.

[MJistheGOAT]

08-10 Kobe is on the same level/slightly higher than 2nd 3-Peat MJ, no one compares to 91-93 MJ so it shouldn't even be a debate.

Explain why 08-10 Kobe is equal/slightly better to 96-98 MJ.

[julizaver]

Kobe took a team with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton and led them to be the 8th best offense in the NBA. That is amazing IMO.

Also Kobe's efficiency was fine. 56 TS% on that kind of volume is insane. I will say 1996 and 1997 MJ was a more consistent defender, but offensively I don't think he is on par with peak Kobe.

MJs in his highest scoring year with slightly better TS % ...

[Doranku]

85-86, 95-98, 02-03

Prime Kobe was slightly better than 2nd threepeat Jordan imo.

[ImKobe]

Explain why 08-10 Kobe is equal/slightly better to 96-98 MJ.

You can compare their Playoff numbers or look at the teams they played on and the competition they faced. Kobe carried a team of no all-stars to the #1 seed and beat the defending champs Spurs in 5 games.

Their worst and best Finals performances are near-identical statistically.

08-10 Kobe was still somewhat in his prime while MJ took a step back and became more of an off-ball player.

Can't go wrong with either pick really, but it's why I would say that Kobe's equal or slightly better in some people's eyes to a 2nd 3-Peat MJ.

Like I said, no one's close to 91-93 Jordan, but past-prime MJ? You can make some arguments.

[riseagainst]

The 2 Wizards years and maybe MJ's rookie season.



https://pics.me.me/aker-nbamemes-michael-jordans-rookie-season-28-2-pts-6-5-reb-31376795.png


Kobe is literally MJ light. Not a knock on Kobe. MJ is just many tiers above Kobe as a player.

[Cold soul]

Kobe peak was as good if not better than 2nd three peat Jordan 96-98. Kobe 08-10 championship run years run was as impressive as Jordan 96-98 years were. Jordan 1st 3 peat is whole other tier level with 90-93 years Kobe doesn

[SamuraiSWISH]

Explain why 08-10 Kobe is equal/slightly better to 96-98 MJ.
Lol seriously ...

I’ve already made this comparison. Absolute worst Jordan is equal, while being four years older than Kobe was during that span. Michael was more successful on all fronts.

And actually Michael faced better competition during that stretch. Outside of the 2008 Celtics, he faced 5 60+ win teams.

Jordan 33 - 35 years old
Reg - 30/6/4
Playoff - 31/6/4
1st Team Defense ‘96 - ‘98
2x - MVPs
3x - Finals MVPs
3x - Championships

vs

Kobe 28 - 31 years old
Reg - 27/6/5
Playoff - 30/6/6
1st Team Defense ‘08 - ‘10
MVP
2x - Finals MVPs
2x - Championships

So in actuality ... ‘96 - ‘98 past prime fade-away Jordan is slightly better than prime Kobe.

I don’t get it, just accept it. Prime / Peak Kobe however you want to define it 2001 - 2010 is a better player than ‘85, injured ‘86, rusty ‘95, Wizard ‘02, and ‘03 Jordan.

MAYBE on par with ‘87 Jordan. And ‘88 - ‘93 is just a whole nother level from whatever you define as peak Kobe. There’s no shame in that.

Rookie MJ’s stats are slightly better than MVP season Kobe. Let that sink in ...

[Loco 50]

The two Wizards seasons.
:oldlol: This and only this.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Finals Averages for good measure

[3ball]

Finals Averages for good measure

‘96 - ‘98 MJ
31.0 ppg 5.4 rpg 4.1 apg

‘08 - ‘10 KB
28.9 ppg 6.1 rpg 5.4 apg

So Mike with +2 ppg , and KB with 1+ rpg and 1+ apg.

While Jordan factually played with a more incompetent scoring supporting cast talent wise. And faced better comp overall.

Shame Jordan didn’t play the last year of his physical prime in 1994, to get an accurate gauge comparison of their production at this 3 year age range

.
And MJ carried a much bigger burden:



............PERCENTAGE OF TEAM POINTS SCORED WHILE PLAYER WAS ON FLOOR


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

KOBE 2008....... 31.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 41.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
KOBE 2009....... 32.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 35.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 36.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 34.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2010....... 32.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 37.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 37.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/usage/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


And at no stage in Kobe's career did he match MJ's goat offensive efficiency (ortg or PER), or combination of burden/efficiency combination (usage/ortg)[/QUOTE]

[ImKobe]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Finals Averages for good measure

[fileman1209]

Rookie MJ, 1986, maybe 1998? that's it

[fileman1209]

Finals Averages for good measure

‘96 - ‘98 MJ
31.0 ppg 5.4 rpg 4.1 apg

‘08 - ‘10 KB
28.9 ppg 6.1 rpg 5.4 apg

So Mike with +2 ppg , and KB with 1+ rpg and 1+ apg.

While Jordan factually played with a more incompetent scoring supporting cast talent wise. And faced better comp overall.

Shame Jordan didn’t play the last year of his physical prime in 1994, to get an accurate gauge comparison of their production at this 3 year age range.



the gap is much much bigger in MJ's favor than what you're showing, the efficiency amd defensive gap is huge. they are not close as playoffs/finals performers

edit - I'm talking about prime MJ didn't notice you used 96-98 MJ

[SamuraiSWISH]

Exactly, and Kobe faced better defenses in these Finals.

DRTG:

08 BOS - 98.9
09 ORL - 101.9
10 BOS - 103.8

96 SEA - 102.1
97 UTA - 104.0
98 UTA - 105.4

Kobe's teams were slightly more evened out on offense with Gasol, Odom and shooters, but Jordan had better ballhandlers (Pippen, Harper) and obviously much better defensive players around him.
I normally rank defenses based on their rank within that season two immediate contemporaries. Because comparing defensive rating can get a little bit tricky between eras.

Either way the Bulls mainly faced the best defenses within their own conference in the playoffs. But even based on defensive rating alone, Seattle is right there or better than all but the 2008 Celtics, who I admitted is the best competition in that Finals lot.

But also part of facing a great competitor is that making you work on the other side of the ball as well. If we are ranking those teams faced

1) 2008 Celtics

2) 96 Sonics / 97 Jazz

3) 1998 Jazz

4) 2010 Celtics

5) 2009 Magic

Ball handling was equal between both those teams bro LOL get the **** out of here. Fisher and Odom are equally as good as Pippen and Harper handling the rock or initiating an offense. In fact Odom might be the best playmaker off the dribble in that group. Especially in the half court.

And while not as great as the Bulls, the perimeter defense was even pretty good on those Laker squads with Ariza and then Artest.

Meanwhile the Lakers had a distinct size and low post advantage. Regardless of Rodman

[SamuraiSWISH]

the gap is much much bigger in MJ's favor than what you're showing, the efficiency amd defensive gap is huge. they are not close as playoffs/finals performers

edit - I'm talking about prime MJ didn't notice you used 96-98 MJ
Yeah I didn