lebron NEEDS shooters right? Isn't that a weakness in skills that limits team ceiling

[3ball]

The facts that he needs the ball in his hands is a weakness in his skills compared to other greats and ultimately explains why his teams were normally underdogs on the championship level and never dynasties

His raw talent is enough to still accomplish more than most players, but falls short of the very best, i.e. bird, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, etc - guys that had skill without the ball in their hands, thereby fitting with more player types and having better teamwork for a better team

[Akrazotile]

He doesnt need the ball in his hands, he shoots a higher 3 pt % than MJ :roll:


But considering he’s the best in the league WITH the ball in his hands, it makes sense to put shooters around him.

[jstern]

That's the major flaw in Lebron's game. That's why in creating an all time team I can't put Lebron in, because in order for him to be as effective as his ranking, then the other top 4 players will have to adjust their game so that Lebron could be effective. Probably become spot up shooters. His style is a weakness.

[TommyGriffin]

[QUOTE=Akrazotile]He doesnt need the ball in his hands, he shoots a higher 3 pt % than MJ :roll:


But considering he

[warriorfan]

Lebrons need to have a tailored made team around him hurts his all time rankings. There

[warriorfan]

He everyone look at this guy.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Tg sighting!

:banana:

[superduper]

Incredibly high IQ post which should really just be common sense.

[kennethgriffen]

lebron needs a team of shooters/defenders and multiple hall of fame sidekicks


kobe needs gasol and scrubs

:lol

[Akrazotile]

That's the major flaw in Lebron's game. That's why in creating an all time team I can't put Lebron in, because in order for him to be as effective as his ranking, then the other top 4 players will have to adjust their game so that Lebron could be effective. Probably become spot up shooters. His style is a weakness.


Wait so Wade, Bosh, and Joel Anthony are spot up shooters?? :biggums:

Cause Bron won back to back championships with those guys spotting up. I can only imagine what he’d do with Curry, Bird, and Nowitzki around him :roll:

[Dray n Klay]

Jordan NEEDS multi dimensional two-way players.

Isn't that a weakness in skill that limits team ceiling?

[superduper]

Wait so Wade, Bosh, and Joel Anthony are spot up shooters?? :biggums:

Cause Bron won back to back championships with those guys spotting up. I can only imagine what he’d do with Curry, Bird, and Nowitzki around him :roll:

Bosh is one of the best big men shooters ever..

[Akrazotile]

Bosh is one of the best big men shooters ever..


Is he?

Can a guy who averages 1 3pt FGA per game really be one of the best ever?

That’s how many ATTEMPTS he averaged over Lebron’s 4 years with the Heat.

1 per game. Look it up.


“But Lebron MADE him a spot up shooter, and he’s one of the best ever!” Ok so if he’s one of the best, it was smart of Lebron to use him that way. If he’s not, it doesnt matter, he only took 1 per game.


Whatever argument youre trying to push, it actually speaks favorably for LeDong.

[Indian guy]

There's no team out there that's winning without shooters. Only 3 teams that are bottom 10 in 3pt% and 3pters made are currently in the playoffs. One is OKC, who have multiple superstars. The other is Utah, who have a dominant defense. Lakers neither have multiple stars nor much of a defense.

Playing without shooting in today's era would be like playing without bigs who can rebound in the 90's. You aren't winning shit.

[superduper]

Is he?

Can a guy who averages 1 3pt FGA per game really be one of the best ever?

That’s how many ATTEMPTS he averaged over Lebron’s 4 years with the Heat.

1 per game. Look it up.


“But Lebron MADE him a spot up shooter, and he’s one of the best ever!” Ok so if he’s one of the best, it was smart of Lebron to use him that way. If he’s not, it doesnt matter, he only took 1 per game.


Whatever argument youre trying to push, it actually speaks favorably for LeDong.

So you're blatantly ignoring Bosh didn't remotely play in the 3pt explosion era.

How many did Brook Lopez have in the same period of time?

Thought you were a good poster.

[Akrazotile]

So you're blatantly ignoring Bosh didn't remotely play in the 3pt explosion era.

How many did Brook Lopez have in the same period of time?

Thought you were a good poster.


What does this matter.

He took 1 3pt FGA per game with Lebron. One ATTEMPT per game. Look it up on bball ref.

How is that being

[AirTupac]

[QUOTE=Akrazotile]What does this matter.

He took 1 3pt FGA per game with Lebron. One ATTEMPT per game. Look it up on bball ref.

How is that being

[NBASTATMAN]

MJ needed shooters as well..

He had Paxon, Hodges, Armstrong, Kerr, and they were all some of the best shooters of all time..

You could also consider Horace Grant , Bill Wennington, Kukoc, and Buschler all shooters considering their positions.. They could all shoot and usually were set up for Spot up shots by MJ or Pip..

MJ had more shooters than Drexler in 92 and Magic in 91.. I would say that Barkley had as many or more shooters than MJ in 93 Finals.. Mj's Bulls had more shooters than 96 Sonics, 97 and 98 Jazz..

I guess MJ had that same weakness..

[Rico2016]

Just give him Pippen

21/9/8 with amazing defense

And don't forget Horrace Grant/Dennis Rodman, Phil Jackson, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper

Sound like anyone you may know? :D

[Rico2016]

[QUOTE=Akrazotile]Is he?

Can a guy who averages 1 3pt FGA per game really be one of the best ever?

That

[knicksman]

anyone who isnt an idiot knows that lebron sacrifices teamplay for stats. Thats why only an idiot ranks players based on stats aka statnerd.

[tamaraw08]

MJ needed shooters as well..

He had Paxon, Hodges, Armstrong, Kerr, and they were all some of the best shooters of all time..

You could also consider Horace Grant , Bill Wennington, Kukoc, and Buschler all shooters considering their positions.. They could all shoot and usually were set up for Spot up shots by MJ or Pip..

MJ had more shooters than Drexler in 92 and Magic in 91.. I would say that Barkley had as many or more shooters than MJ in 93 Finals.. Mj's Bulls had more shooters than 96 Sonics, 97 and 98 Jazz..

I guess MJ had that same weakness..

but but but other top teams didn't need shooters. GSW winning 3 rings didn't have shooters. Klay and Steph shoot like Lonzo, right?:confusedshrug:
Tell me again the past 4 years, what are the teams that thrived on offense without shooters?
ughh, the Ironic OxyMORON,
3Ball hates the 3-Ball concept?:facepalm
3 beats 2, better floor spacing etc etc.
Another Irony Miami 11-12 champs, Bosh and Wade took a combined 1.7 3pt attempts.
The following year, they took a combined 2.0 3pt shots and still winning another ring. It's harder but it can be done.

[StrongLurk]

Bron doesn't need shooters to be successful as an individual player.

But you won't win as a TEAM in this era if you can't shoot (or really any modern era).

[superduper]

Bron doesn't need shooters to be successful as an individual player.

But you won't win as a TEAM in this era if you can't shoot (or really any modern era).

Of course he doesn't need shooters to empty statpad in Ls

#LeGOAT

[sdot_thadon]

News Flash bright guy: Everyone needs shooting around them in today's game. I'd like to know which teams have managed to , even threatened to succeed without shooting the way the game is now.

[StrongLurk]

Of course he doesn't need shooters to empty statpad in Ls

#LeGOAT

Teams with average talent and injuries won't win a lot of games. Who knew?

[Celtics 1825]

There's no team out there that's winning without shooters. Only 3 teams that are bottom 10 in 3pt% and 3pters made are currently in the playoffs. One is OKC, who have multiple superstars. The other is Utah, who have a dominant defense. Lakers neither have multiple stars nor much of a defense.

Playing without shooting in today's era would be like playing without bigs who can rebound in the 90's. You aren't winning shit.
Exactly. How do you expect to be successful in today's game without having shooters on your team?

I'm not a LeBron fan but how is this a slight against him? In 2019 all superstars need shooters around them to win.

[TheCorporation]

Just give him Pippen

21/9/8 with amazing defense

And don't forget Horrace Grant/Dennis Rodman, Phil Jackson, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper

Sound like anyone you may know? :D

Jesus.

Who needs THIS much help to beat auto mechanics?

[NBAGOAT]

the triangle just wouldnt work that well today unless you had mj or shaq, basically the 2 greatest offensive players of all time. rambis and fisher failed miserably(and fisher had jackson making personnel decisions).

All you need to know is Riley who's one of the best ever at adjusting to his era has completely evolved his team's playstyles. By the time Bron was there, they were playing 3-4 shooters in most lineups and Bosh at center frequently and this was still like 5 years ago.

[And1AllDay]

Jordan NEEDS multi dimensional two-way players.

Isn't that a weakness in skill that limits team ceiling?

Shit :roll:

[ImKobe]

Just give him Pippen

21/9/8 with amazing defense

And don't forget Horrace Grant/Dennis Rodman, Phil Jackson, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper

Sound like anyone you may know? :D

We saw Lebron this season with a bunch of playmakers who couldn't shoot, that shit wouldn't work. Lebron needs the ball in his hands, Phil's system would make him a lot worse than he is.

[tamaraw08]

Sometimes I wonder if 3ball is a closet Lebron fan.
Everytime he thinks of Lebron, he tries to stroke something and it always explodes in front of his face.

[3ball]

There's no team out there that's winning without shooters. Only 3 teams that are bottom 10 in 3pt% and 3pters made are currently in the playoffs. One is OKC, who have multiple superstars. The other is Utah, who have a dominant defense. Lakers neither have multiple stars nor much of a defense.

Playing without shooting in today's era would be like playing without bigs who can rebound in the 90's. You aren't winning shit.
We saw Lebron this season with a bunch of playmakers who couldn't shoot, that shit wouldn't work (ImKobe)

Lebron needs the ball in his hands, Phil's system would make him a lot worse than he is (ImKobe)

And that's the difference - lebron can't play with playmakers like rondo, ,ingram, Wade, pippen or lonzo, who all played MUCH better when lebron wasn't on the floor (edit: pippen didn't play with bron).. other playmakers don't play well with lebron because lebron himself is a ball-dominator, and his skillset is limited to ball-domination

[NBASTATMAN]

We saw Lebron this season with a bunch of playmakers who couldn't shoot, that shit wouldn't work. Lebron needs the ball in his hands, Phil's system would make him a lot worse than he is.



There are only two or three players that HAVE BEEN great playing off the ball..

Jordan after Pippen took over ball handling duties, Curry, and Bird.. There are no other players that I can remember that dominated off the ball.. Well besides TOP BIGS..

[NBASTATMAN]

And that's the difference - lebron can't play with playmakers like rondo, ,ingram, Wade, pippen or lonzo, who all played MUCH better when lebron wasn't on the floor (edit: pippen didn't play with bron).. other playmakers don't play well with lebron because lebron himself is a ball-dominator, and his skillset is limited to ball-domination


You could say that about everyone except for mj, curry and Bird.. Kobe dominated the ball even when Payton and Nash played along side of him..

[SpaceJammeR]

this the worst shooting team lebrons played with thats a fact :lol kuzma, bi, rondo, lonzo, lol.

[tamaraw08]

We saw Lebron this season with a bunch of playmakers who couldn't shoot, that shit wouldn't work (ImKobe)

Lebron needs the ball in his hands, Phil's system would make him a lot worse than he is (ImKobe)

And that's the difference - lebron can't play with playmakers like rondo, ,ingram, Wade, pippen or lonzo, who all played MUCH better when lebron wasn't on the floor (edit: pippen didn't play with bron).. other playmakers don't play well with lebron because lebron himself is a ball-dominator, and his skillset is limited to ball-domination

I already shared an advanced stat where it showed Ingram actually has better stats when playing along side lebron. :facepalm
Wade? 2 rings where his team defeated KD,WB and Harden and the mighty Spurs not enough?
'12 Heat was 2nd in the league in ORTG at 112.3 pts, but but but
ok, Finals ORTG VS OKC 115.1, what was MJ's finals teams ORTG AGAIN?:confusedshrug: Let me answer that for you
1998- 105.5
1997, 104.6
2013 Heat's ORTG FINALS vs the Spurs = 108.5,
even when the Spurs avenged it the following year, Heat still posted 104.8.
What about Kyrie? isn't he a playmaker?:confusedshrug:
'16 109.1 ORTG,
2017 Finals, 114.6 ORTG for Lebron's teams.
Speaking of which, please ANSWER THIS QUESTION.
Can you name ANY PLAYER esp with the Bulls where they actually had a career year in scoring when they played next to MJ? Anybody, PLEASE. Because I know Pippen, Kukoc, Armstrong, Cartwright all had career highs without MJ
What about the other skill sets? 3pt shooting, passing and court vision. Ability to penetrate and finish around the basket? Who has more blocks and steals per game. TS%.

[3ball]

I already shared an advanced stat where it showed Ingram actually has better stats when playing along side lebron. :facepalm
Wade? 2 rings where his team defeated KD,WB and Harden and the mighty Spurs not enough?
'12 Heat was 2nd in the league in ORTG at 112.3 pts, but but but
ok, Finals ORTG VS OKC 115.1, what was MJ's finals teams ORTG AGAIN?:confusedshrug: Let me answer that for you
1998- 105.5
1997, 104.6
2013 Heat's ORTG FINALS vs the Spurs = 108.5,
even when the Spurs avenged it the following year, Heat still posted 104.8.
What about Kyrie? isn't he a playmaker?:confusedshrug:
'16 109.1 ORTG,
2017 Finals, 114.6 ORTG for Lebron's teams.
Speaking of which, please ANSWER THIS QUESTION.
Can you name ANY PLAYER esp with the Bulls where they actually had a career year in scoring when they played next to MJ? Anybody, PLEASE. Because I know Pippen, Kukoc, Armstrong, Cartwright all had career highs without MJ
What about the other skill sets? 3pt shooting, passing and court vision. Ability to penetrate and finish around the basket? Who has more blocks and steals per game. TS%.
Wade/Bosh/Love were 5-10 points off their highs alongside lebron, while pip/grant were only 1 point off next to MJ:



Pippen 1992:. 21.0.. 7.0 apg.. 50.6 fg
Pippen 1994:. 22.0.. 5.6 apg.. 49.1 fg

Grant 1992:. 14/10
Grant 1994:. 15/11

Armstrong 1993:. 12.3.. 4.0 apg.. 49.9 fg
Armstrong 1994:. 14.8.. 3.9 apg.. 47.6 fg


Jordan's teammates played closer to capacity next to him because he was a spot-up shooter - so he could play off teamnates instead of dominating the ball and turning them into spot-up shooters

Jordan's non-ball-dominant style facilitated better ball movement and teams

[NBASTATMAN]

MJ needed shooters as well..

He had Paxon, Hodges, Armstrong, Kerr, and they were all some of the best shooters of all time..

You could also consider Horace Grant , Bill Wennington, Kukoc, and Buschler all shooters considering their positions.. They could all shoot and usually were set up for Spot up shots by MJ or Pip..

MJ had more shooters than Drexler in 92 and Magic in 91.. I would say that Barkley had as many or more shooters than MJ in 93 Finals.. Mj's Bulls had more shooters than 96 Sonics, 97 and 98 Jazz..

I guess MJ had that same weakness..


Ive looked at MJ's teams and he may have needed shooters more than Lebron ..

When he didnt have shooters he had defensive stoppers on his team..

When has Lebron had any Defensive stopper on his team ? He never had a Pippen, Artest, or Rodman

Mj may have had more weaknesses..

[tpols]

There are only two or three players that HAVE BEEN great playing off the ball..

Jordan after Pippen took over ball handling duties, Curry, and Bird.. There are no other players that I can remember that dominated off the ball.. Well besides TOP BIGS..


Jordan, bird, curry, Dirk, Russell, Kobe, Duncan, kareem, karl Malone and more from the top 20 were all excellent off ball. We've never seen a big guy dominate the ball like LeBron except magic, who averaged double the dimes and was perhaps the greatest teammate enhancer ever ~ a stark contrast.

[tamaraw08]

Wade/Bosh/Love were 5-10 points off their highs alongside lebron, while pip/grant were only 1 point off next to MJ:



Pippen 1992:. 21.0.. 7.0 apg.. 50.6 fg
Pippen 1994:. 22.0.. 5.6 apg.. 49.1 fg

Grant 1992:. 14/10
Grant 1994:. 15/11

Armstrong 1993:. 12.3.. 4.0 apg.. 49.9 fg
Armstrong 1994:. 14.8.. 3.9 apg.. 47.6 fg


Jordan's teammates played closer to capacity next to him because he was a spot-up shooter - so he could play off teamnates instead of dominating the ball and turning them into spot-up shooters

Jordan's non-ball-dominant style facilitated better ball movement and teams

so that's it, you couldn't NAME ANY PLAYER WHO HAD A CAREER YEAR IN POINTS when they played with Jordan?, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, ZIP?:confusedshrug:
12 YEARS Mo Williams, his career high in pts was 17.8 pts next to Lebron.
Kyrie, 8 years, career high, 25.2 pts next to Lebron, actually scoring less as the MAIN LEADER for Boston the past 2 years.
Kyle Kuzma young career, improved to 18.7 pts from 16.1.
McGhee is currently averaging 11 pts, last time he averaged more than 10 pts/game was 2011.
Of course Wade, Bosh would average less, they are all sharing the ball, again their ORTG in the finals were higher than MJ's finals and if you tell me their numbers will NOT GO DOWN if they teamed up with MJ, then you are freaking CRAZY, same with Love.

[NBASTATMAN]

Jordan, bird, curry, Dirk, Russell, Kobe, Duncan, kareem, karl Malone and more from the top 20 were all excellent off ball. We'be never seen a big guy dominate the ball like LeBron except magic, who averaged double the dimes and was perhaps the greatest teammate enhancer ever ~ a stark contrast.


I wrote besides big men .. Jordan Bird and Curry are all accurate.. Kobe was never great off the ball.. Phil Jackson said it himself when he said Kobe is great on the ball and Mj was great off the ball.. TRY AGAIN :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

I already shared an advanced stat where it showed Ingram actually has better stats when playing along side lebron. :facepalm
Wade? 2 rings where his team defeated KD,WB and Harden and the mighty Spurs not enough?
'12 Heat was 2nd in the league in ORTG at 112.3 pts, but but but
ok, Finals ORTG VS OKC 115.1, what was MJ's finals teams ORTG AGAIN?:confusedshrug: Let me answer that for you
1998- 105.5
1997, 104.6
2013 Heat's ORTG FINALS vs the Spurs = 108.5,
even when the Spurs avenged it the following year, Heat still posted 104.8.
What about Kyrie? isn't he a playmaker?:confusedshrug:
'16 109.1 ORTG,
2017 Finals, 114.6 ORTG for Lebron's teams.
Speaking of which, please ANSWER THIS QUESTION.
Can you name ANY PLAYER esp with the Bulls where they actually had a career year in scoring when they played next to MJ? Anybody, PLEASE. Because I know Pippen, Kukoc, Armstrong, Cartwright all had career highs without MJ
What about the other skill sets? 3pt shooting, passing and court vision. Ability to penetrate and finish around the basket? Who has more blocks and steals per game. TS%.

:eek: :eek:

[tamaraw08]

I wrote besides big men .. Jordan Bird and Curry are all accurate.. Kobe was never great off the ball.. Phil Jackson said it himself when he said Kobe is great on the ball and Mj was great off the ball.. TRY AGAIN :oldlol:

Phil made a great point about Kobe dominating the ball.
You can add shooters to the list of having good off ball games like Ray Allen, Miller etc, even play makers like Wade and Manu etc.
But it's not like Lebron has absolutely no off ball game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA7nFXH6R_4
It's that he is much more effective dominating the ball that even in the finals, his team has a high ORTG even vs Jordan's teams.
It is a weakness? Yes, because he didn't see the need to improve on it JUST LIKE MJ NEVER SAW THE NEED TO WORK ON HIS 3PT SHOT.

[tamaraw08]

Wade/Bosh/Love were 5-10 points off their highs alongside lebron, while pip/grant were only 1 point off next to MJ:



Pippen 1992:. 21.0.. 7.0 apg.. 50.6 fg
Pippen 1994:. 22.0.. 5.6 apg.. 49.1 fg

Grant 1992:. 14/10
Grant 1994:. 15/11

Armstrong 1993:. 12.3.. 4.0 apg.. 49.9 fg
Armstrong 1994:. 14.8.. 3.9 apg.. 47.6 fg


Jordan's teammates played closer to capacity next to him because he was a spot-up shooter - so he could play off teamnates instead of dominating the ball and turning them into spot-up shooters

Jordan's non-ball-dominant style facilitated better ball movement and teams

so that's it, you couldn't NAME ANY PLAYER WHO HAD A CAREER YEAR IN POINTS when they played with Jordan?, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, ZIP?
12 YEARS Mo Williams, his career high in pts was 17.8 pts next to Lebron.
Kyrie, 8 years, career high, 25.2 pts next to Lebron, actually scoring less as the MAIN LEADER for Boston the past 2 years.
Kyle Kuzma young career, improved to 18.7 pts from 16.1.
McGhee is currently averaging 11 pts, last time he averaged more than 10 pts/game was 2011.
Of course Wade, Bosh would average less, they are all sharing the ball, again their ORTG in the finals were higher than MJ's finals
and if you tell me their numbers will NOT GO DOWN if they teamed up with MJ, then you are freaking CRAZY, same with Love.

[Poetry]

[B]so that's it, you couldn't NAME ANY PLAYER WHO HAD A CAREER YEAR IN POINTS when they played with Jordan?, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, ZIP?

Has anyone said Pax.

[3ball]

Bump, as a reminder

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


Lebron plays exactly like cp3, westbrook, harden, etc - he dribbles the ball out top, and has 4 shooters around him

This is weak brand and very basic way to play - it represents a lower-caliber skillset then the guys that win a lot more, i.e. Curry, Kobe, Bird, MJ, Durant, Kawhi

These guys are elite on-ball and off-ball, which fits with any player type, thereby
maximizing team ceiling and brand.. otoh, Lebron is only elite on-ball, which only fits with shooters, thereby lowering team ceiling and brand

^^^ this is the reason lebron won less than Kobe/MJ and had weaker teams despite greater talent (a third star, aka Big 3's)

Essentially, the Lebron/Westbrook/CP3 skillset has always disappointed in the playoffs, but Lebron team-hopped for sufficient talent to force through this suboptimal style and win a few, still mostly losing though
.

[Uncle Drew]

Hey bitch - if I catch you or anyone else from this loser ass board following me, I will beat you down in self defense. You will be in the hospital if I catch you following me as anyone that is following me I will deem a threat to my health

I've already filed police reports against your screen name and others I suspect. Im also getting restraining orders to ban the screen name from playing on the site where you outed yourself as my stalker

Don't let me catch you, you tiny tiny man. You'll be even tinier when I get done with you

[scuzzy]

Hey bitch - if I catch you or anyone else from this loser ass board following me, I will beat you down in self defense. You will be in the hospital if I catch you following me as anyone that is following me I will deem a threat to my health

I've already filed police reports against your screen name and others I suspect. Im also getting restraining orders to ban the screen name from playing on the site where you outed yourself as my stalker

Don't let me catch you, you tiny tiny man. You'll be even tinier when I get done with you
:lol :lol

[3ba11]

Incredibly high IQ post which should really just be common sense.


Agreed, yet people got offended by it

[Axe]

Hey bitch - if I catch you or anyone else from this loser ass board following me, I will beat you down in self defense. You will be in the hospital if I catch you following me as anyone that is following me I will deem a threat to my health

I've already filed police reports against your screen name and others I suspect. Im also getting restraining orders to ban the screen name from playing on the site where you outed yourself as my stalker

Don't let me catch you, you tiny tiny man. You'll be even tinier when I get done with you
:milton

[AirBonner]

Thread Cliffs:
Hey bitch - if I catch you or anyone else from this loser ass board following me, I will beat you down in self defense. You will be in the hospital if I catch you following me as anyone that is following me I will deem a threat to my health

I've already filed police reports against your screen name and others I suspect. Im also getting restraining orders to ban the screen name from playing on the site where you outed yourself as my stalker

Don't let me catch you, you tiny tiny man. You'll be even tinier when I get done with you

[TheGoatest]

jordon needed someone who was better than him at every aspect of basketball other than scoring (shot taking) in order just to have a .500 season:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ehcd46SWsAA0JHe.jpg