Why is the difference between #1 and #2 in playoff PPG > #2 and #8?

[3ball]

.

Career PPG Playoffs

Jordan...... 33.5


Iverson..... 29.7
West......... 29.1
Lebron...... 28.9
Durant...... 28.8
Barry......... 27.3
Elgin......... 27.0
Gervin...... 26.5



:eek:


mj did WAY more per game than everyone in history.. an ABERRATION of a scorer, he was that good:


[B]ab

[Dray n Klay]

Jordan only played 179 playoff games

It

[Poetry]

[QUOTE=Dray n Klay]Jordan only played 179 playoff games

It

[3ball]

Jordan only played 179 playoff games

It’s easier to maintain a higher ppg average the less games you play


Thru 179 playoff games:



JORDAN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_playoffs_advanced): 33.5 ppg.. 56.8 ts.. 28.6 PER.. more game-winners.. 6 rings

LEBRON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2015-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 28.2 ppg.. 56.5 ts.. 27.4 PER.. less game-winners.. 2 rings


Thats a 5.3 ppg gap on better shooting efficiency, offensive efficiency (ortg/per possession efficiency, PER), and defense

[Dr Hawk]

Thru 179 playoff games:



JORDAN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_playoffs_advanced): 33.5 ppg.. 56.8 ts.. 28.6 PER.. more game-winners.. 6 rings

LEBRON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2015-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 28.2 ppg.. 56.5 ts.. 27.4 PER.. less game-winners.. 2 rings

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheCorporation]

[QUOTE=3ball].

Career PPG Playoffs

Jordan...... 33.5


Iverson..... 29.7
West......... 29.1
Lebron...... 28.9
Durant...... 28.8
Barry......... 27.3
Elgin......... 27.0
Gervin...... 26.5



:eek:


mj did WAY more per game than everyone in history.. an ABERRATION of a scorer, he was that good:


[B]ab

[TheCorporation]

[QUOTE=Dray n Klay]Jordan only played 179 playoff games

It

[superduper]

B-b-b-buh what's their Gamescore and VORP!! :mad:

[TheCorporation]

GAME SCORE DOESN'T ACCOUNT FOR PACE :rant

Then, in the same breath

CHECK OUT MJ'S PPG

Uh, does that account for pace :lol

[sdot_thadon]

I'd imagine it lines up perfectly with the difference in fga op?:biggums:

[TheCorporation]

I'd imagine it lines up perfectly with the difference in fga op?:biggums:

Fun fact

LeBron James scored MORE points on LESS shots than Jordan when he broke his record

:cheers:

[3ball]

I'd imagine it lines up perfectly with the difference in fga op?:biggums:

MJ had better offensive efficiency than lebron, so no.. MJ scored 5 more points on better offensive efficiency (see below)

The fga difference is just because lebron took a lot more threes and FT's... :confusedshrug:



Offensive Efficiency:

Jordan:. 118 offensive rating (ortg)... 28.6 Player Efficiency Rating (PER)
Lebron:. 116 offensive rating (ortg)... 28.3 Player Efficiency Rating (PER)

offensive rating = points produced per 100 possessions (per possession efficiency)
.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ had better offensive efficiency than lebron, so no.. MJ scored 5 more points on better offensive efficiency (see below)

The fga difference is just because lebron took a lot more threes and FT's... :confusedshrug:



Offensive Efficiency:

Jordan:. 118 offensive rating (ortg)... 28.6 Player Efficiency Rating (PER)
Lebron:. 116 offensive rating (ortg)... 28.3 Player Efficiency Rating (PER)

offensive rating = points produced per 100 possessions (per possession efficiency)
.
5 more points on 4 more shots pookie. And the fact Lebron's a 49% playoff shooter in his career to this point.....You should be able to connect those dots unless you're smoking dope.

[3ball]

5 more points on 4 more shots pookie. And the fact Lebron's a 49% playoff shooter in his career to this point.....You should be able to connect those dots unless you're smoking dope.


MJ shot 4 more times due to less FT's and threes, but his shooting efficiency was the same as Lebron's (within 1%), while scoring 5 more points..

Any lebron fan would give up 1% shooting efficiency for 5 more points, especially since shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per possession efficiency (ortg), where MJ's is higher
.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ shot 4 more times due to less FT's and threes, but his shooting efficiency was the same as Lebron's (within 1%), while scoring 5 more points..

Any lebron fan would give up 1% shooting efficiency for 5 more points, especially since shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per possession efficiency (ortg), where MJ's is higher
.
inaccurate.

He shot 4 more times because he's a different type of player that shoots more. By choice. By taste. By style. Quit with the stupid concepts bro. 5 more points on 4 more shots. It is what it is and you're smart enough to make the correlation yourself.

[3ball]

inaccurate.

He shot 4 more times because he's a different type of player that shoots more. By choice. By taste. By style. Quit with the stupid concepts bro. 5 more points on 4 more shots. It is what it is and you're smart enough to make the correlation yourself.
MJ shot more because he made more.. a lot more

He still has 404 more made FG's than lebron, despite lebron's "longevity".. :rolleyes: .. Bulls MJ made 2.5 more fg's per game than lebron, thus giving his team more good possessions

Despite this goat load, his shooting efficiency was the same as Lebron's (within 1%), while scoring 5 more points and making a lot more shots

Any lebron fan would give up 1% shooting efficiency for 5 more points, especially since shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per possession efficiency (ortg), where MJ's is higher

[sdot_thadon]

MJ shot more because he made more.. a lot more

He still has 404 more made FG's than lebron, despite lebron's "longevity".. :rolleyes: .. Bulls MJ made 2.5 more fg's per game than lebron, thus giving his team more good possessions

Despite this goat load, his shooting efficiency was the same as Lebron's (within 1%), while scoring 5 more points and making a lot more shots

Any lebron fan would give up 1% shooting efficiency for 5 more points, especially since shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of per possession efficiency (ortg), where MJ's is higher
We can't even have this discussion if you believe shot attempts have no bearing on how many fg you make. Instead of taking the 4 more shots Mj does Lebron makes plays for others with those same possessions. If he shot 4 more times at 49%, that's between 4-6 more ppg. And not even factoring what fta come from shooting more instead of passing. On the same fga they have roughly the same amount of ppg, kinda making your entire point pointless......as always. If you believe anyone watching a game is worried about what someone's ortg going to be, you're alot more of a dopefiend than i previously thought pookie.

[3ball]

We can't even have this discussion if you believe shot attempts have no bearing on how many fg you make. Instead of taking the 4 more shots Mj does Lebron makes plays for others with those same possessions. If he shot 4 more times at 49%, that's between 4-6 more ppg. And not even factoring what fta come from shooting more instead of passing. On the same fga they have roughly the same amount of ppg, kinda making your entire point pointless......as always. If you believe anyone watching a game is worried about what someone's ortg going to be, you're alot more of a dopefiend than i previously thought pookie.
MJ shot more than everyone, so everyone is really an equal scorer to MJ - that's what ur saying

Which is obviously wrong and dumb as shit

Accept the facts chico - MJ made more shots.... and he averaged a lot more with equal or better efficiency than Lebron, which makes him a better scorer

No one believes 1% ts is worth 5 points.. lebron would be a more dominant player if he averaged 5 more points without giving up material shooting efficiency and having better offensive efficiency overall (ortg)

Hope that helps bud

And we both saw what lebron did at 30+ fga in the 15' Finals - he shot 39% because he was bad at the additional midrange and iso's required for high volume.. but MJ was the best mid-range and iso player ever, so he shot 51% at 33 fga in a slower-paced series (93' Finals).. lebron can't maintain his efficiency at high volume because he's an inferior scorer, as these series and their career stats show

[Dray n Klay]

MJ shot more than everyone, so everyone is really an equal scorer to MJ - that's what ur saying

Which is obviously wrong and dumb as shit

Accept the facts chico - MJ made more shots.... and he averaged a lot more with equal or better efficiency than Lebron, which makes him a better scorer

No one believes 1% ts is worth 5 points.. lebron would be a more dominant player if he averaged 5 more points without giving up material shooting efficiency and having better offensive efficiency overall (ortg)

Hope that helps bud

And we both saw what lebron did at 30+ fga in the 15' Finals - he shot 39% because he was bad at the additional midrange and iso's required for high volume.. but MJ was the best mid-range and iso player ever, so he shot 51% at 33 fga in a slower-paced series (93' Finals).. lebron can't maintain his efficiency at high volume because he's an inferior scorer, as these series and their career stats show

LeBron got double the rebounds and assists, which is >>> 3 more ppg

[3ball]

LeBron got double the rebounds and assists, which is >>> 3 more ppg
ball movement has always beaten ball-dominant teams by yielding higher team assists and getting better looks for role players

And Lebron's defensive rebounds are replaceable

Lebron sacrificed perimeter defense to steal interior rebounds from his bigs, and the organic ball movement of other teams beats lebron's ball-dominant assists, and always has

[NBASTATMAN]

ball movement has always beaten ball-dominant teams by yielding higher team assists and getting better looks for role players

And Lebron's defensive rebounds are replaceable

Lebron sacrificed perimeter defense to steal interior rebounds from his bigs, and the organic ball movement of other teams beats lebron's ball-dominant assists, and always has


I agree Lebron's style of bball isnt the best. But his style works .. Even on this Laker team it works.. When he is on the floor their plus minus is much better than when he is off the floor.. Take a look at their last couple of losses and you will see that when Lebron is in the game they usually in the PLUS..

Mj needed more shooting than Lebron.. Lets look at his teammates..


First Bulls team

paxon shooter
bj armstrong shooter
horace grant a spot up shooter
Hodges shooter

Second Bulls team

Kerr,
Kukoc
Wennington good spot up shooter from 16 ft
Buschler
Luc Longley was a good shooter from 15 ft


MJ had the same weaknesses as Lebron .. In todays NBA three point shooting is the most important asset in a players game..

[Paul George 24]

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]GAME SCORE DOESN'T ACCOUNT FOR PACE :rant

Then, in the same breath

CHECK OUT MJ'S PPG

Uh, does that account for pace :lol[/Q>2UOTE]
6>2:banana: :banana: :banana:

[ImKobe]

LeBron got double the rebounds and assists, which is >>> 3 more ppg

MJ was actually the better rebounder, as proven by OREB numbers and he was also a much better defender (steals, deflections, blocked shots, on-ball or off-ball).

"double the rebounds and assists" more like an extra 1.5 defensive boards (.5 less OREB) and 1.8 more assists while turning the ball over .7 more times per game (comparing Bulls' MJ numbers to current Lebron career averages).

Lebron's assist numbers are negated by the extra possessions MJ gives his team with steals & with turning the ball over less. You have that, and you look at MJ's scoring, which is very similar in efficiency but at a much higher volume. You also take into account the pace and the defensive rules and MJ just comes out looking much better.

There's nothing about Lebron that really makes him better than Jordan, it's nothing but a mirage created by the media. You don't see NFL analysts comparing Joe Montana's stats to current players, the average NFL QB puts up comparable or better numbers than prime Joe Cool and people understand it's because of the rules, it's only the NBA fans that don't get this, unless you bring up Wilt's records.

[3ball]

I agree Lebron's style of bball isnt the best. But his style works .. Even on this Laker team it works.. When he is on the floor their plus minus is much better than when he is off the floor.. Take a look at their last couple of losses and you will see that when Lebron is in the game they usually in the PLUS..

Mj needed more shooting than Lebron.. Lets look at his teammates..


First Bulls team

paxon shooter
bj armstrong shooter
horace grant a spot up shooter
Hodges shooter

Second Bulls team

Kerr,
Kukoc
Wennington good spot up shooter from 16 ft
Buschler
Luc Longley was a good shooter from 15 ft


MJ had the same weaknesses as Lebron .. In todays NBA three point shooting is the most important asset in a players game..
MJ excelled with those shooters you mentioned AND playmakers like pippen, because MJ himself was a spot-up shooter and could play off other playmakers

Otoh, lebron's skillset is restricted to pg-style ball-dominance and can't dominate off-ball, so he doesn't fit as well with playmakers like Ingram or Rondo, who sucked with lebron on the court... Hence the narrative that he "needs" shooters.. that goes without saying for any other player, but not lebron, because he doesn't fit well with any other player

[NBASTATMAN]

MJ excelled with those shooters you mentioned AND playmakers like pippen, because MJ himself was a spot-up shooter and could play off other playmakers



So I am right Mj needed shooters more than Bron..

As for MJ excelling with playmakers.. Well they played great without him.. Find me a team that played great after Lebron left..

In 2014-15 season the Heat added Luol Deng to replace Lebron.. Luol was an all star the prior season.. Yet even before the injury to Bosh they were not in playoff contention..

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201501030HOU.html

[NBASTATMAN]

MJ was actually the better rebounder, as proven by OREB numbers and he was also a much better defender (steals, deflections, blocked shots, on-ball or off-ball).

"double the rebounds and assists" more like an extra 1.5 defensive boards (.5 less OREB) and 1.8 more assists while turning the ball over .7 more times per game (comparing Bulls' MJ numbers to current Lebron career averages).

Lebron's assist numbers are negated by the extra possessions MJ gives his team with steals & with turning the ball over less. You have that, and you look at MJ's scoring, which is very similar in efficiency but at a much higher volume. You also take into account the pace and the defensive rules and MJ just comes out looking much better.

There's nothing about Lebron that really makes him better than Jordan, it's nothing but a mirage created by the media. You don't see NFL analysts comparing Joe Montana's stats to current players, the average NFL QB puts up comparable or better numbers than prime Joe Cool and people understand it's because of the rules, it's only the NBA fans that don't get this, unless you bring up Wilt's records.


Lebron was putting up great numbers before the rules changed in 2005-2006 season.. Kobe and Iverson were the guys who benefited the most.. Take a look at those stats.. Easily made Kobe and Iverson better .. While Lebron was not much better compared to his second season.. He Was better but those stats benefited Kobe and Iverson the most..

[3ball]

Lebron was putting up great numbers before the rules changed in 2005-2006 season.. Kobe and Iverson were the guys who benefited the most.. Take a look at those stats.. Easily made Kobe and Iverson better .. While Lebron was not much better compared to his second season.. He Was better but those stats benefited Kobe and Iverson the most..
The rules changed in the 04-05' season, the year lebron's numbers jumped

And he actually produced much more in 05' than he did in his Finals run in 07', but didn't have Hughes and Coach Brown so he missed Playoffs


05' LBJ:. 27/7/7.. 55.4 ts.. 25.7 PER.. 0.203 ws/48.. 8.3 bpm.. 8.8 vorp.. 9 seed, lottery (no hughes/brown)
07' LBJ:. 27/7/6.. 55.2 ts.. 24.5 PER.. 0.206 ws/48.. 7.4 bpm.. 7.6 vorp.. 2 seed, Finals (hughes, brown)

[NBASTATMAN]

The rules changed in the 04-05' season, the year lebron's numbers jumped

And he actually produced much more in 05' than he did in his Finals run in 07', but didn't have Hughes and Coach Brown so he missed Playoffs


05' LBJ:. 27/7/7.. 55.4 ts.. 25.7 PER.. 0.203 ws/48.. 8.3 bpm.. 8.8 vorp.. 9 seed, lottery (no hughes/brown)
07' LBJ:. 27/7/6.. 55.2 ts.. 24.5 PER.. 0.206 ws/48.. 7.4 bpm.. 7.6 vorp.. 2 seed, Finals (hughes, brown)


BS cuz Kobe couldnt have been that bad in 2004-2005.. Dont mention the ankle injury cuz he was shooting like 39 -40 percent fore the injury all the way up until January.. I remember it being 2005-06

They may have changed it in 04-05 but they really started implementing it the following season..

[sdot_thadon]

MJ shot more than everyone, so everyone is really an equal scorer to MJ - that's what ur saying

Which is obviously wrong and dumb as shit
Definitely dumb as shit, and it's your idea not mine. Where did i say or have ever said Lebron was superior as a scorer? I said given the same number of fga the will have a similar ppg. Lebron is not just any other player, with 4 more fga per game he's getting you between 4 and 6 points. Any lesser thought is comical.



Accept the facts chico - MJ made more shots.... and he averaged a lot more with equal or better efficiency than Lebron, which makes him a better scorer

No one believes 1% ts is worth 5 points.. lebron would be a more dominant player if he averaged 5 more points without giving up material shooting efficiency and having better offensive efficiency overall (ortg)
1% ts isn't worth 4 more attempts per game for an elite scorer either. Lebron wouldn't have to force 4 more shots, he'd just take the money more selfishly rather than set the table for others. duh.


And we both saw what lebron did at 30+ fga in the 15' Finals - he shot 39% because he was bad at the additional midrange and iso's required for high volume.. but MJ was the best mid-range and iso player ever, so he shot 51% at 33 fga in a slower-paced series (93' Finals).. lebron can't maintain his efficiency at high volume because he's an inferior scorer, as these series and their career stats show
We saw what happens when a player loses their 2nd and 3rd option by the time they reach the finals, something Mj was fortunate to never face. However his 1st finals opponent Magic Johnson had this very thing happen to him mid series.(albeit to a lesser extent of course) Magic's 2nd and 3rd option both were hurt mid series in 91. :coleman:

[3ball]

Definitely dumb as shit, and it's your idea not mine. Where did i say or have ever said Lebron was superior as a scorer? I said given the same number of fga the will have a similar ppg. Lebron is not just any other player, with 4 more fga per game he's getting you between 4 and 6 points. Any lesser thought is comical.


That can be said for any player in history and has no bearing on why MJ scored more

Not every player could have MJ's volume and still match lebron's shooting efficiency and top him in overall offensive efficiency.. infact, only MJ did that





1% ts isn't worth 4 more attempts per game for an elite scorer either. Lebron wouldn't have to force 4 more shots, he'd just take the money more selfishly rather than set the table for others. duh.


Yeah it is... because teammates can't get 4 attempts at lebron or MJ's offensive efficiency (116-118 ortg)

Only MJ and lebron can get shots at that efficiency late, so they should be finishing those possessions, not lower-rated teammates.. heck - Wade, Kobe and harden don't have their efficiency and shouldn't be passed to either.. :confusedshrug:

Everyone knows that.. :rolleyes: ..:facepalm





We saw what happens when a player loses their 2nd and 3rd option by the time they reach the finals, something Mj was fortunate to never face. However his 1st finals opponent Magic Johnson had this very thing happen to him mid series.(albeit to a lesser extent of course) Magic's 2nd and 3rd option both were hurt mid series in 91. :coleman:


MJ always carried the load that lebron had in the 15' Finals.. MJ had to take 30+ shots all the time

Regarding the Lakers - Magic had 2 sophisticated, do-it-all bigs in Perkins/Divac who averaged 17/10 and were best layers in the series after the magic/mj and worthy/pippen matchups..

90' all-star AC Green matched Horace, and suoer-athlete elden campbell was better than both..

prime magic simply had a better team but lost

[Dray n Klay]

That can be said for any player in history and has no bearing on why MJ scored more

Not every player could have MJ's volume and still match lebron's shooting efficiency and top him in overall offensive efficiency.. infact, only MJ did that



Yeah it is... because teammates can't get 4 attempts at lebron or MJ's offensive efficiency (116-118 ortg)

Only MJ and lebron can get shots at that efficiency late, so they should be finishing those possessions, not lower-rated teammates.. heck - Wade, Kobe and harden don't have their efficiency and shouldn't be passed to either.. :confusedshrug:

Everyone knows that.. :rolleyes: ..:facepalm



Magic had 2 sophisticated, do-it-all bigs in Perkins/Divac who averaged 17/10 and were best layers in the series after the magic/mj and worthy/pippen matchups.. 90' all-star AC Green matched Horace, and suoer-athlete elden campbell was better than both.. prime magic simply had a better team but lost


Its better to average 12 rebs and 10 assists over 4 rebounds and 2 assist


On the same ppg (34ppg)

[3ball]

Its better to average 12 rebs and 10 assists over 4 rebounds and 2 assist


On the same ppg (34ppg)


MJ's 34 ppg includes 52% of the bulls' points in the closeout game, including the greatest clutch ever, plus goat defense and the brand of basketball needed to win at a championship level.. so it was harder to achieve than lebron's stat-padding, low team assist, non-closer losing style with horrible defense


Now why was being a net negative enough for lebron in 2013?



Net rating

Jordan 98' Finals:. +8.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/893/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)
Lebron 13' Finals:. -0.2 (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/advanced/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)


Why was 16.7 on 39% enough for Lebron thru 3 games of the 2013 Finals, or 21 on 43% thru 5 games - basically a repeat of the 11' Finals until ray allen saved him?.. :kobe:

And how did he make the Finals with 22 ppg in the 14' ECF?

[NBASTATMAN]

Why was 16.7 on 39% enough for Lebron thru 3 games of the 2013 Finals, or 21 on 43% thru 5 games - basically a repeat of the 11' Finals until ray allen saved him?.. :kobe:

And how did he make the Finals with 22 ppg in the 14' ECF?


Mj shot around 40 percent in AT LEAST 2 NBA playoff series.. He SHOT around 38 percent I believe in 97-or 98 vs the Heat with Voshawn Leonard guarding him.. :facepalm

I think all great players have had bad series shooting wise..

[3ball]

Mj shot around 40 percent in AT LEAST 2 NBA playoff series.. He SHOT around 38 percent I believe in 97-or 98 vs the Heat with Voshawn Leonard guarding him.. :facepalm

I think all great players have had bad series shooting wise..
Again, lebron never had an efficient, 30+ series against champs until 2016

Whereas MJ had them all the time and since he was damn-near 22 years old (44 on 50% vs Celts' #1 defense), while 22-year lebron was shitting the bed vs the 07' spurs #1 defense (22 on 36%.. yikes)