Lebron has a chance at second best player of all time

[StrongLurk]

I'm curious what he needs to do to pass Kareem. I guess pass him all time on the scoring list? Idk if that is enough. Hmm...Kareem did win 2 rings in his last 3 seasons, but was only a 16/6 player on a stacked team at that time so those rings don't do anything for his top 10 case.

I think things will simply end as MJ still GOAT clearly, Kareem number 2, and LAbron at 3rd all time.

[Big164]

If Curry keeps collecting jewelry long after Lebron

[NBASTATMAN]

I'm curious what he needs to do to pass Kareem. I guess pass him all time on the scoring list? Idk if that is enough. Hmm...

I think things will simply end as MJ still GOAT clearly, Kareem number 2, and LAbron at 3rd all time.


He has to win another title as main guy.. Going to be near impossible since no player has ever won a title as the main guy after playing 50 k plus minutes.. Lebron is at 56 k minutes .. I dont see it.. He is def much slower and doesnt eVEN jump on his shots.. I expect he is looking to lessen impact on his body at this point.. Lakers getting AD will not matter cuz The best NBA team IS fielding 5 all star level players on its team.. The Rockets have two superstars and two really nice players..

Hopefully Lebron gets traded to NY.. He isnt going to win anything but he can play for stats his last couple of seasons like MJ ,Kobe, and Bird did..

Hard to compete with Kareems resume..

[NBASTATMAN]

[QUOTE=Big164]If Curry keeps collecting jewelry long after Lebron

[Spurs m8]

Lebron is manufactured, empty stat hype.

He's top 10...maybe

[3ball]

REGULAR SEASON

Jordan 85-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_advanced):.. 31.5 ppg.. 58.0 ts.. 35.3 usg.. 120 ortg.. 29.1 PER.. 0.274 ws/48.. 9.0 bpm
Kareem 70-82' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html#1970-1982-sum:per_game):. 27.8 ppg.. 59.0 ts.. 25.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 26.5 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 7.9 bpm
Lebron. 06-18' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2018-sum:advanced):. 27.7 ppg.. 59.0 ts.. 32.0 usg.. 118 ortg.. 28.6 PER.. 0.254 ws/48.. 9.9 bpm


PLAYOFFS

Jordan 85-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_playoffs_advanced):.. 33.5 ppg.. 56.8 ts.. 35.6 usg.. 118 ortg.. 28.6 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 10.1 bpm
Kareem 70-82' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html#1970-1982-sum:playoffs_advanced):. 29.1 ppg.. 56.7 ts.. 26.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 25.8 PER.. 0.232 ws/48.... 8.7 bpm
Lebron. 06-18' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_advanced):. 28.9 ppg.. 57.9 ts.. 32.2 usg.. 116 ortg.. 28.3 PER.. 0.244 ws/48.. 11.1 bpm


FINALS

Jordan. 85-98':.. 33.5 ppg.. 6 fmvp.. 1 all-star teammate.. goat teamwork
Kareem 70-82':. 26.0 ppg.. 2 fmvp.. 8 all-star teammates
Lebron.. 06-18':. 28.2 ppg.. 3 fmvp.. 6 all-star teammates


But lebron and Kareem aren't #2 or #3 due to excessive help and inferior skill set to others like bird, magic or kobe
.

[Spurs m8]

I still get amazed Jordan hit these averages without the 3 ball era.

Factor in the extra point for the 3 and the wide open lanes, dude would be averaging 40.

Factor in the attention he draws and the D he would collapse, his assist numbers would go through the roof too

[NBASTATMAN]

REGULAR SEASON

Jordan 85-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_advanced):.. 31.5 ppg.. 58.0 ts.. 35.3 usg.. 120 ortg.. 29.1 PER.. 0.274 ws/48.. 9.0 bpm
Kareem 70-82' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html#1970-1982-sum:per_game):. 27.8 ppg.. 59.0 ts.. 25.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 26.5 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 7.9 bpm
Lebron. 06-18' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2018-sum:advanced):. 27.7 ppg.. 59.0 ts.. 32.0 usg.. 118 ortg.. 28.6 PER.. 0.254 ws/48.. 9.9 bpm




PLAYOFFS

Jordan 85-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_playoffs_advanced):.. 33.5 ppg.. 56.8 ts.. 35.6 usg.. 118 ortg.. 28.6 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 10.1 bpm
Kareem 70-82' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html#1970-1982-sum:playoffs_advanced):. 29.1 ppg.. 56.7 ts.. 26.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 25.8 PER.. 0.232 ws/48.... 8.7 bpm
Lebron. 06-18' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2018-sum:advanced):. 28.9 ppg.. 57.9 ts.. 32.2 usg.. 116 ortg.. 28.3 PER.. 0.244 ws/48.. 11.1 bpm


FINALS

Jordan. 85-98':.. 33.5 ppg.. 6 fmvp.. 1 all-star teammate.. goat teamwork
Kareem 70-82':. 26.0 ppg.. 2 fmvp.. 8 all-star teammates
Lebron.. 06-18':. 28.2 ppg.. 3 fmvp.. 6 all-star teammates



Not sURE MJ is the clear GOAT.. His teams were just better than the competition..

You can say that about most of the best players.. But MJ won every time he had a chance. That stands out vs Lebron, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Dr J, and the other top 15 all time players.. Besides Russell of course..

[NBASTATMAN]

I still get amazed Jordan hit these averages without the 3 ball era.

Factor in the extra point for the 3 and the wide open lanes, dude would be averaging 40.

Factor in the attention he draws and the D he would collapse, his assist numbers would go through the roof too


I AGREE..

[TheCorporation]

I hate to tell you this, and maybe you just haven't seen it yet, but...

https://i.postimg.cc/qvdXCs2H/Screenshot-20190315-093204-Phonto.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Hkh2X232/GmScore_Rank_updated.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/rwLpwdBw/GmSC_update__3.png

https://i.postimg.cc/jdgkyVFR/MJyikes.jpg

[3ball]

.
Michael Jordan won 2 underdog rings (rings above expectation metric) according to 538:


http://i66.tinypic.com/fa9zld.png

*Kareem's finals appearances are off in the second chart. Refer to the first chart. He should have 10. Kareem's rings above expectation total is around +0.9.


http://i67.tinypic.com/2mpg6fm.jpghttp://i64.tinypic.com/15hlhdx.png


*The numbers seem to fluctuate based on the changing ELO rankings and upsets. So in the first chart MJ has +2 rings above expectation and in the second updated chart he has +1.9.

*The Game Score averages above are not adjusted for pace.


Among NBA leaders, Bill Russell has the most rings above expectation with +2.4 (or +2.3), followed by MJ with +1.9 (previously +2.0).

Source:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-much-should-lebrons-finals-record-hurt-his-legacy/

[NBASTATMAN]

MJ won more as the underdog in 1989 than lebron ever has, and won 2 rings as the underdog according to professional analytics (see previous post)

And yes - only MJ is undefeated with a 1 or 2 seed (a squad), so he's the most undefeatable player (goat)

Lebron and Kareem lost 6+ times each with 1 or 2 seeds, while MJ was 6-0.. infact, lebron only has 3 rings in 13 playoffs despite never having less than a 4 seed, while MJ is 6/9 with 1-4 seeds, (and that's 6/8 if we exclude the baseball season).


How about the 1994 Bulls? They should have gone to the Finals without MJ.. David Stern didnt want to hurt MJ legacy so a bs foul was called on PIP

[3ball]

Not sURE MJ is the clear GOAT.. His teams were just better than the competition..

You can say that about most of the best players.. But MJ won every time he had a chance. That stands out vs Lebron, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Dr J, and the other top 15 all time players.. Besides Russell of course..
MJ won more as the underdog in 1989 than lebron ever has, and won 2 rings as the underdog according to professional analytics (see previous post)

And yes - only MJ is undefeated with a 1 or 2 seed (a squad), so he's the most undefeatable player (goat)

Lebron and Kareem lost 6+ times each with 1 or 2 seeds, while MJ was 6-0.. infact, lebron only has 3 rings in 13 playoffs despite never having less than a 4 seed, while MJ is 6/9 with 1-4 seeds, (and that's 6/8 if we exclude the baseball season).

[NBASTATMAN]

Lebron is manufactured, empty stat hype.

He's top 10...maybe


Yea I hate the way he is always a plus when he is on the floor. Even in these last few games his plus minus is great. When he is on the floor they play much better. That is a fact..

[3ball]

How about the 1994 Bulls? They should have gone to the Finals without MJ.. David Stern didnt want to hurt MJ legacy so a bs foul was called on PIP
Pip actually choked 3 times in that series:


Game 3 - refusing to go in

Game 5 - dumb foul on a 3-pt shooter.. the first thing they teach u in school

Game 7 - horrible performance and only 21 on 40% for the series as 1st option


So don't tell me about Pippen this.. and pippen that... Wade was >>>... Kyrie was better on the championship level.. lebron needed these closers AND an all-nba pf to win (an extra all-star to win and a closer stud wing)

[NBASTATMAN]

Pip actually choked 3 times in that series:


Game 3 - refusing to go in

Game 5 - dumb foul on a 3-pt shooter.. the first thing they teach u in school

Game 7 - horrible performance and only 21 on 40% for the series as 1st option


So don't tell me about Pippen this.. and pippen that... Wade was >>>... Kyrie was better on the championship level.. lebron needed these closers AND an all-nba pf to win (an extra all-star to win and a closer stud wing)


THANKS FOR MAKING MY POINT.. Cuz they STILL should have won.. Even with Pip choking they still should have won.. They got robbed by Officials vs the Knicks.. You know it and everyone knows it..

[3ball]

THANKS FOR MAKING MY POINT.. Cuz they STILL should have won.. Even with Pip choking they still should have won.. They got robbed by Officials vs the Knicks..


Knicks had more talent

So it shows you the great brand of ball and teamwork that the bulls had developed, as required of all organic dynasties (the only kind of dynasty that exists
)





everyone knows it..


lebron's style of turning teammates into spot-up shooters is bad for teammate and team development, so he can't develop/win with young guys like MJ did in 91'

Accordingly, front offices had to get ready-made talent for lebron to win (Wade, Kyrie, etc).. Ultimately, his skillset is too restricted to ball-dominance to produce an organic brand of ball that competes well at the championship level against other organic brands (spurs, warriors, mavs, magic)

[NBASTATMAN]

Knicks had more talent

So it shows you the great brand of ball and teamwork that the bulls had developed, as required of all organic dynasties (the only kind of dynasty that exists)



lebron's style of turning teammates into spot-up shooters is bad for teammate and team development, so he can't develop/win with young guys like MJ did in 91'

Accordingly, front offices had to get ready-made talent for lebron to win (Wade, Kyrie, etc).. Ultimately, his skillset is too restricted to ball-dominance to produce an organic brand of ball that competes well at the championship level against other organic brands (spurs, warriors, mavs, magic)



So You agree that the bulls would have won without MJ..

[Rico2016]

I hate to tell you this, and maybe you just haven't seen it yet, but...

https://i.postimg.cc/qvdXCs2H/Screenshot-20190315-093204-Phonto.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Hkh2X232/GmScore_Rank_updated.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/rwLpwdBw/GmSC_update__3.png

https://i.postimg.cc/jdgkyVFR/MJyikes.jpg

Goodness

[StrongLurk]

REGULAR SEASON

Jordan 85-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_advanced):.. 31.5 ppg.. 58.0 ts.. 35.3 usg.. 120 ortg.. 29.1 PER.. 0.274 ws/48.. 9.0 bpm
Kareem 70-82' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html#1970-1982-sum:per_game):. 27.8 ppg.. 59.0 ts.. 25.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 26.5 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 7.9 bpm
Lebron. 06-18' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2018-sum:advanced):. 27.7 ppg.. 59.0 ts.. 32.0 usg.. 118 ortg.. 28.6 PER.. 0.254 ws/48.. 9.9 bpm


PLAYOFFS

Jordan 85-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_playoffs_advanced):.. 33.5 ppg.. 56.8 ts.. 35.6 usg.. 118 ortg.. 28.6 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 10.1 bpm
Kareem 70-82' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html#1970-1982-sum:playoffs_advanced):. 29.1 ppg.. 56.7 ts.. 26.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 25.8 PER.. 0.232 ws/48.... 8.7 bpm
Lebron. 06-18' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_playoffs_advanced):. 28.9 ppg.. 57.9 ts.. 32.2 usg.. 116 ortg.. 28.3 PER.. 0.244 ws/48.. 11.1 bpm


FINALS

Jordan. 85-98':.. 33.5 ppg.. 6 fmvp.. 1 all-star teammate.. goat teamwork
Kareem 70-82':. 26.0 ppg.. 2 fmvp.. 8 all-star teammates
Lebron.. 06-18':. 28.2 ppg.. 3 fmvp.. 6 all-star teammates


But lebron and Kareem aren't #2 or #3 due to excessive help and inferior skill set to others like bird, magic or kobe
.

You've pretty much proved my point that it's a battle for second place.

MJ is still GOAT while Lebron and Kareem are VERY similar with prime/peak play...which I why I asked what does Lebron need to do to pass Kareem, the King of longevity?

We know Lebron won't win a ring again due to Golden State erasing any end of prime chance he had PLUS Lebron deciding to go to the Lakers.

I think if Lebron passes Kareem on the scoring list then that might give LAbron the edge...but I could still have Kareem at 2 due to more MVPs AND the fact that Kareem is also the all-time leader in rebounds and top 3 in blocks I believe.