Points are points right? If the ball ends up in the basket does it matter how?

[Kblaze8855]

I guess it doesnt. The scoreboard doesnt know the difference. And yet......when I watch this I swoon:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FocusedWiltedGalapagosalbatross-size_restricted.gif










When id watch the Kings play....im out of my seat....




https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DistortedRingedBunny-size_restricted.gif












Watching the spurs I have literally had kids stop what they are doing and come watch replays of things like:







https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WholeLameKilldeer-size_restricted.gif















And to make it more modern you have to respect:






https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IllDearAntelope-size_restricted.gif
















Yet when I watch this:









https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FloweryNeighboringFrillneckedlizard-size_restricted.gif






I dont know what to do with it. I dont know how to process what happened.



I may respect the talent it takes to make it work 12 times in a game. But still.....my group of crusty old friends with bad knees all sit there cringing through the cigar smoke of my livingroom like:









https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AstonishingFocusedGardensnake-size_restricted.gif






Simple question.


Is it wrong to care how the ball got into the basket when evaluating a players ability to put it there? Does caring how "pretty" it is or how it makes you feel make you more concerned with the superficial than the substance of the matter?

Is it possible the "purists" are the ones worried about shit that doesnt matter to the bottom line?

[eliteballer]

The variance is the beauty of the game...it really depends on the player doing it and the situation in addition to the play itself.

If Harden or Durant break the offense and say "fck it..we need a bucket and I'm getting it" then I can let it slide.

Some scrub out of their depth? Completely different situation.

[Kblaze8855]

Everyone breaks the offense when needed. But some....that way is the offense. Though I think Hardens style stands out more now than it would have at times. He plays one man army ball now that teams have the depth and shooting not to require it.

Even bad NBA teams have a lot of people who can score if only because of the spacing and rules.

[3ball]

Teams that score off ball movement and high team assists (curry, duncan) win more and generally beat teams that use more ball-dominance and low team assists to score (lebron/harden)

For this reason, the best players that have dominant skill sets OUTSIDE of ball-dominance are > ball-dominators (and win more/higher team ceiling/easier to build around), all else being equal

[Manny98]

That Curry off ball movement completely losing his defender in that gif :bowdown:

[tpols]

thats why we always harp on stats like team assists and total passes made (when tracked)

it's obvious that moving the ball as much as possible will result in offense that tires a defense out quicker than one or two guys monopolizing, no matter how well they score because theyll eventually lose pace.

[SomeBlackDude]

When id watch the Kings play....im out of my seat....




https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DistortedRingedBunny-size_restricted.gif

one of my favorite all time squads to watch play. everyone from 1-5 was a great passer at their position. too bad they got jobbed out of a 'ship.

'14 spurs were great too. just a less athletic, less dynamic version of the kings.

[TheCorporation]

That Curry off ball movement completely losing his defender in that gif :bowdown:

That was pretty wild :bowdown:

[Ben Simmons 25]

It does matter and here's why it matters.

In that instance? Of course, 2 points = 2 points. 3 points = 3 points. There's no disputing that. Even over small sample sizes, this still rings true.

However, what the Harden example fails to really show you is that when defenses tighten up and nerves tighten up, those shots become less efficient than they would be in regular season "no stress" situations.

On top of that, the detrimental intangible effect that is thrust upon an entire team by the other 4 guys on the court standing and watching one guy do all the work, either through morale or because they start to expect him to always do it or some combination of the two, also yields less optimal results over time.

So... to answer your question in the most direct way possible... in the short term, it doesn't matter at all. It's the exact same. Keep repeating the process over the long term? The iso ball kills teams... or at the least, makes them less optimal versions of themselves. That's the best I can sum up it.

Not to mention, as tpols said, the impact it has on the opposing team. If they have to chase everyone all over the floor, there will be better results for your own team on both the offensive and defensive ends of the ball, as you've run the other team into the dirt energy wise and that's another advantage that compounds more and more over time.

[Kblaze8855]

It does matter and here's why it matters.

In that instance? Of course, 2 points = 2 points. 3 points = 3 points. There's no disputing that. Even over small sample sizes, this still rings true.

However, what the Harden example fails to really show you is that when defenses tighten up and nerves tighten up, those shots become less efficient than they would be in regular season "no stress" situations.

On top of that, the detrimental intangible effect that is thrust upon an entire team by the other 4 guys on the court standing and watching one guy do all the work, either through morale or because they start to expect him to always do it or some combination of the two, also yields less optimal results over time.

So... to answer your question in the most direct way possible... in the short term, it doesn't matter at all. It's the exact same. Keep repeating the process over the long term? The iso ball kills teams... or at the least, makes them less optimal versions of themselves. That's the best I can sum up it.

Not to mention, as tpols said, the impact it has on the opposing team. If they have to chase everyone all over the floor, there will be better results for your own team on both the offensive and defensive ends of the ball, as you've run the other team into the dirt energy wise and that's another advantage that compounds more and more over time.


I suppose it comes down to a point of view. Is a game a series of individual plays with one desired outcome...score....or is it one entity that is best served by a style that may generate more long term points and easier ones at that?

If the Rockets win the title with Harden playing 1-5 maybe 40% of the time we may well see more of it. And would it be wrong?

[LoneyROY7]

Harden is able to play this style successfully mainly because of two reasons...his ability to get to the rim at virtually any moment + his masterful ballhandling skills.

Here's a example from last night's game (time-stamped): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkzt7tqmxno&t=2m16s

He maintains his dribble while floating around multiple defenders, and when the time is right, he bursts past his chosen victim while he finishing around 3 other onlookers.

Just pure basketball talent. Very few in the history of the game are capable of playing this style and doing it successfully.

[sdot_thadon]

It's a matter of taste honetly. I can overlook the beauty, or lack thereof if it's consistent to the point you know it's not a fluke. Even down to the individual level where you had guys like Marion or Jamison that had pretty ugly games but you couldn't deny their talent.

[Ben Simmons 25]

I suppose it comes down to a point of view. Is a game a series of individual plays with one desired outcome...score....or is it one entity that is best served by a style that may generate more long term points and easier ones at that?

If the Rockets win the title with Harden playing 1-5 maybe 40% of the time we may well see more of it. And would it be wrong?

Yeah... and I think you have to view the games as "single entities" as you put it that are best served by a style that generates bigger point discrepancies long term that are easier... I think you actually have to view them as more than single entities also... you have to view them as entire seasons or more, in some instances...

And I think you have to view it that way because... human beings aren't robots. They have emotions which impact their play and they only have so much energy to give before their performance dips over time. Anything that hinders a team whatsoever in any way shape or form, emotionally or psychologically, has to be viewed as less than optimal long term.





And it would be wrong because James Harden travels on the majority of his step back plays, or at the very least... takes advantage of the rules to the extent that the very spirit of why the rules were instilled in the first place becomes violated.

Something also has to be done about the way he draws fouls. And something has to be done about him initiating contact, throwing his head backwards like he just got decked by Apollo Creed, and then getting a foul call...

James Harden would not be an MVP level player if he wasn't able to so masterfully exploit the rules. He would still be top 10 or bordering top 10 annually because of his ability to blow by people... So there's a certain level here in which he must be admired because of how well he does it, but at the same time it's disgusting because it goes against the very nature of competitive, level playing field sports.

Now... imagine a league in which 90% of the players did "step backs"(travels) like he does, initiated contact and were able to consistently sell fouls like he does... I literally wouldn't watch. Oh I want to vomit just thinking about how unappealing that would be.

[Ben Simmons 25]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_z5Ro6bSSQ

James Harden is a disgusting, vile piece of shit.

You know... we all sit here and we act tough and talk shit about players... say stuff we'd never say to their face not in a million years... cause in most cases we'd be star struck if we ever met them...

But I'm telling you... I'm trying to tell you... if I ever came across this dude I would straight up tell him what a gigantic piece of garbage he is and how incredibly disgusted I am to ever watch him play. He really is a ****ing ******.

[LoneyROY7]

Yeah... and I think you have to view the games as "single entities" as you put it that are best served by a style that generates bigger point discrepancies long term that are easier... I think you actually have to view them as more than single entities also... you have to view them as entire seasons or more, in some instances...

And I think you have to view it that way because... human beings aren't robots. They have emotions which impact their play and they only have so much energy to give before their performance dips over time. Anything that hinders a team whatsoever in any way shape or form, emotionally or psychologically, has to be viewed as less than optimal long term.





And it would be wrong because James Harden travels on the majority of his step back plays, or at the very least... takes advantage of the rules to the extent that the very spirit of why the rules were instilled in the first place becomes irrelevant.

Something also has to be done about the way he draws fouls and the way he creates space stepping back. And something has to be done about him initiating contact, throwing his head backwards like he just got decked by Apollo Creed, and then getting a foul call...

James Harden would not be an MVP level player if he wasn't able to so masterfully exploit the rules. He would still be top 10 annually or close to it because of his ability to blow by people... So there's a certain level here in which he must be admired because of how well he does it, but at the same time it's disgusting because it goes against the very nature of competitive, level playing field sports.

Now... imagine a league in which 90% of the players did "step backs"(travels) like he does, initiated contact and were able to consistently sell fouls like he does... I literally wouldn't watch. Oh I want to vomit just thinking about how unappealing that would be.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

You just broke down your entire point right there.

Harden's ability to blow by people is the primary facilitator to his dominance. He breaks down a team's defensive structure almost immediately by constantly being able to get past his initial defender...the big/wing is forced to help, leaving either and open roll man or an open jumpshot. Or individually, he's just gonna get any shot he wants. An inability to "masterfully exploit rules" isn't changing any of that.

Quickness is probably the biggest game-breaking talent in basketball, of which Harden has in droves...combined with unseemly strength for his size, top 2 ballhandling skills in the game, and elite body control. No rule changes are impacting that skillset. Sorry bud.

They made the "Harden Rule" two years ago and he won the MVP the following season, He's now averaging the most since MJ. Rule changes ain't stop sh*t.

[Ben Simmons 25]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

You just broke down your entire point right there.

Harden's ability to blow by people is the primary facilitator to his dominance. He breaks down a team's defensive structure almost immediately by constantly being able to get past his initial defender...the big/wing is forced to help, leaving either and open roll man or an open jumpshot. Or individually, he's just gonna get any shot he wants. An inability to "masterfully exploit rules" isn't changing any of that.

Quickness is probably the biggest game-breaking talent in basketball, of which Harden has in droves...combined with unseemly strength for his size, top 2 ballhandling skills in the game, and elite body control. No rule changes are impacting that skillset. Sorry bud.

They made the "Harden Rule" two years ago and he won the MVP the following season, He's now averaging the most since MJ. Rule changes ain't stop sh*t.

I didn't contradict my own argument for nothing, tool.

He would still be elite at blowing by people and as such he would still be an All-Star. He'd also still be a good shooter.

But without the ability to carry the ball backwards on step backs and without all of the absolutely ridiculous fouls that he draws that he personally initiated contact on, he wouldn't be an MVP candidate. Those bullshit exploits are what put him over the top.

There is no self-contradiction in that argument.

[Manny98]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FloweryNeighboringFrillneckedlizard-size_restricted.gif

That might be the ugliest play I've seen in my entire life reminds me of the kids that you'd play with on 2k that ballhog and dribble out the entire shot clock whilst his teammates are just standing in the corner watching him dribble away :facepalm

[BigShotBob]

James Harden has more free throws made than field goals

[305Baller]

the thing is this: 3 points trumps 2 points.
if you can hit the three then its the way to go. especially at a fast pace


ball movement is beautiful. the harlem globetrotters made a career out if it but it wastes time and efficiency.

The Warriors are the standard. Houston's gimmicky but effective.

[305Baller]

Another quality post from Blaze. Thanks.

[305Baller]

edited

[Kblaze8855]

I was about to make a new topic when I remembered this.

we all noticed all these massive point explosions from stars who seem to just be given complete control. Mitchell, for example, scored or assisted on what I think was 101 points in a game. I saw somebody from the Mavericks quoted saying their analytics showed that every play that wasn’t Luka either attempting to score or drawing a double team to kick out for three was a waste of possession and that’s why he has complete control. The stats suggest it’s simply better to let him do whatever he wants than to play team basketball.


That’s why Harden in Houston was that way. He didn’t exactly want to but the numbers suggested one guy going it alone was technically more efficient than letting role players decide outcomes.

when you think about it, it’s not completely irrational to say in a league that makes it hard to defend on the perimeter that you’re always better off if you give it to somebody near unstoppable than trying to play the “right way”, by spreading the ball to worse players, to fail at a higher rate.

The old way of thinking was that eventually they just take the ball out of that stars hands with doubles and when it happens you have a team full of guys not ready to play because they spent a season watching. But now you want the doubles because everyone can shoot…also…the better total team argument?

It doesn’t apply when the other team does the same thing.

The Warriors, in recent years and the spurs before them, played a game that maximize the other players, but if the entire league sees the efficiency of playing the way the Mavericks and rockets used Luka and harden, there is nobody left to take advantage of a different path so it’s no longer a disadvantage only a question of who ballhogs in the most dominant fashion.

[Kblaze8855]

Reading of article on some of these offenses, I saw the 2007 finals referenced and it was pointed out that Mike Brown was calling post ups for Anderson Varejao while LeBron was on the floor and you do have to ask yourself what line of thinking results in that?

So I went to watch a few clips and while I do remember recently watching some of that series and talking about it on here when you really look for just…stupid ball?


It doesn’t stand out. Ignoring that both teams played 3 non shooters together at times….you just have absolute nobodies in control of plays with stars watching.

It used to be pretty common. Larry Bird would go minutes without a touch. Jordan would watch Cartwright get post touches.

I distinctly remember talking to somebody on here about me doing a rewatch of the Pacers and Knicks playing in Reggie’s famous 25 point fourth quarter game and how the pacers at one point come down and feed Dale Davis in the post with Anthony Mason guarding him. You have to ask yourself….why?

Granted in that situation the Knicks proved idiotic enough to reward it as they doubled off of Reggie to give him an open three…..but that double the post talk is for another day….


Dale Davis would never get a post up today playing with Reggie Miller.


Bill Cartwright would get zero looks in the post.

Youd just give it to Jordan 66 plays in a row and if they double…they give up a three or a dunk.

I get the logic of it. But it’s gonna be so hard watching games if that’s all we have in a few years.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh, and let me share what an offense 15 years ago got in the closing seconds of a finals game.



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BlankEvergreenGardensnake-size_restricted.gif




I don’t think a role player today even thinks to do that. He might get the ball off the double but he’s looking to get it back to the star.


Did we empower role players too much in the past?


Is that was analytics has decided?

[FultzNationRISE]

Well from the leagues POV it's all about what casuals wanna see.

Casuals didnt like watching the Spurs and Pistons.

Casuals wanna see crossovers and three pointers. Which purists enjoy too, but not at the complete expense of every other style. Unfortunately it's just hard to create a rule set that doesnt favor one or the other. Whichever one is favored by the rules, teams are inevitably going to maximize it.

edit: I see NBA'd Out just said this exact thing in another thread. I had not seen it yet, no copyright infringement intended.

[tontoz]

I think at times teams aren't accounting for the fact that what works in the regular season doesn't necessarily work in the playoffs. Harden's style clearly didn't work as well in the playoffs when defenses are better and it's harder to draw cheap fouls.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FloweryNeighboringFrillneckedlizard-size_restricted.gif

Points are points, but this is obviously an unsustainable model come playoff time.

[Kblaze8855]

I agree I’m just wondering what happens when everybody plays the same way, so there is no different style that works better. It doesn’t matter how smart or stupid your approach is if everyone does it the same way somebody is going to win with that stupid approach. If the numbers support just giving it to the best player to attack every time won’t the league take to it?

It’s not logically wrong to assume it’s better for the best player to take all the shots and draw doubles for open threes it just doesn’t feeeeeel right. Does it?

Does the offensive efficiency of a Luka, Harden, or whoever in the future taking total control make it the right way to play?

If it works…is anything “wrong”?

[tontoz]

Luka drives to score. He isn't really trying to bait the refs into cheap calls so that makes him more effective in the playoffs than Harden. Luka has really shown out in the playoffs.

One weakness both guys have is that they dont move much without the ball, although i do think Luka is more active than Harden. I think off ball movement gets underrated. It makes things a lot tougher for the defense. Not hard to guard a guy who is standing still.

[FultzNationRISE]

I agree I’m just wondering what happens when everybody plays the same way, so there is no different style that works better. It doesn’t matter how smart or stupid your approach is if everyone does it the same way somebody is going to win with that stupid approach. If the numbers support just giving it to the best player to attack every time won’t the league take to it?

It’s not logically wrong to assume it’s better for the best player to take all the shots and draw doubles for open threes it just doesn’t feeeeeel right. Does it?

Does the offensive efficiency of a Luka, Harden, or whoever in the future taking total control make it the right way to play?

If it works…is anything “wrong”?


Well this assumes every team will have a player capable of making this playstyle worth it. It may not be that the approach itself is inherently superior, but only when you have a Bron, Giannis, or Luka. Will those guys increasingly become a dime a dozen with each passing year such that every team ends up with one? Well for Lebron definitely not, that standard is way too high to be replicated. But with the rest? Probably. I guess when you think about it most teams are already more or less doing that with whovever their top guy is.

[Overdrive]

The huge difference between the Harden and the equal opportunity offense of the Spurs is that if you can get your role players good looks so they can score 10 a game it means you're not as dependent on the nightly individual output of one player. Of course you still need good players to play a system like that. Someone who likes the sport in itself will find a system like that way more beautiful to look at.

[NBAGOAT]

ball handler who does everything is common but watch the nuggets and kings for some variety. their offenses are built around bigs who can pass and it's a lot of fun. Lot of clever sets with cuts and ball movement granted also just some dribble handoffs for 3's which you wouldnt see in the past. A play designed to get a role player a somewhat contested 3. Ofc warriors are still heavy on ball movement too

[Kblaze8855]

The combo of guys emulating the stars they see ahead of them and the rules making it easier might mean everyone does have one soon. Or at least close enough to go with it if that’s what the league decides is the way to win.

A lot of second tier stars might look first tier if you give them unlimited control.