As much as you guys complain about the soft cap you better appreciate it.

[Kblaze8855]

If we had baseballs model?

The Lakers and Knicks could use their TV deals to fund Mike Trout style 400 million dollar deals.

Knicks make I think 35-40 million a year off MSG network which over the 20 years the Laker deal covers would be 750-800 million. The Rockets have a 900 million dollar deal.

Lakers though?

The Lakers deal is pulling in 200 million a season. Its a 4 BILLION dollar deal. Give them a baseball style cap they could throw 400 million at KD for 10 years(knowing hed likely retire after about 8) and 450 at Davis(extra years) and eat good. The TV money covers the first 200 million a season.

They could give 40 million a year to 3 players and have 80 million more before they go into normal team revenue to pay it.

Be thankful for what you have NBA fans. You think your "small" markets are ****ed. Try having no cap and competing with the Yankees and Dodgers who make 150-200 million a season off local TV.

Then we see who really knows how to build a team. You can understand why baseball had to go all Moneyball. They have to pull effective players out of the void to even think about going after the big teams. And they know(KNOW) they are just grooming them to join the big boys. What kind of idiot takes 10 years 150 million when the Dodgers can pay you 300? You cant even blame baseball players for walking.

They can be paid as much as poor teams entire payroll. The Rays are paying 38 million for their team next year....

You think the Cavs and Pelicans are ****ed? The Rays are ****ed. There is NOTHING they can do to compete yearly. They can hope to go all out one year in 10 if all the prospects and a couple vets line up and have a great year before being bought by the big teams but thats it.

[iamgine]

But it's not soft cap vs no cap. No one deny soft cap is better than no cap.

It's soft cap vs hard cap.

[Kblaze8855]

But it's not soft cap vs no cap. No one deny soft cap is better than no cap.

It's soft cap vs hard cap.


This is the lady walking around with a Virgina ham complaining they have no bread.

Yes....ive been rewatching the Sopranos. But the point is clear.

Every NBA team can compete. You lock guys up for 6-8 years.


KP is about to be the first player in history to turn down the obvious big deal to sign the qualifying offer to be a free agent next year. Everyone till now...EVERY SINGLE ONE signed back to his original team. Most sign another one after that. And all the home teams can pay more than the teams they lose their guys to.


The soft cap gives them the financial advantage. A small baseball team CANT pay what the Yankees do without the owner going into his pocket. They cant generate the revenue to get close. Teams we consider poor in the NBA still offer their stars all the money they can possibly be paid by anyone else and then some.

Its rare you lose an NBA player over the money unless you flat out dont value them that much like Harden and OKC. He told them hed stay for the same money the Rockets offered and they didnt offer it. They chose bigmen. Then the cap spiked and Harden was actually underpaid briefly.

You lose NBA players for money when you just dont care to keep them.

Its not a situation where your whole team is worth less than a big market will pay your star.

[Spurs m8]

But it's not soft cap vs no cap. No one deny soft cap is better than no cap.

It's soft cap vs hard cap.

Exactly.

Needs hard cap.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont think you all are grasping how easy it would be to build these same teams with a hard cap. Even ignoring that a hard cap would have to be set at the upper end of current spending to not instantly force the cutting of half the NBA to make 150 guys sign smaller deals in a move that would simply end the NBA because no union would accept it.....


The 2011 Heat only had the 19th highest payroll. Know what they would have had to do to be under a hard cap? Switch out Howard and Magloire for minimum salary young players while the big 3 gave up like 1.5 million each.

The Warriors with KD were only 6 million over the cap. Easily fixed.

Guys would just do what they have been doing. Give up salary to form a super team on short deals then walk when the time is right.

The NFL has a hard cap and you can still just buy up talent in the short term like the Rams did adding Suh, Talib, Peters, and paying Donald the biggest deal in history all at once to make a superbowl run. Cant maintain it but you can do whatever you want for 2-3 seasons if you go bare bones in some places.

You cant do it forever. But NBA teams dont do it forever. Teams run into the repeater luxury tax and turn back which is a system small spenders are fine with because they get the luxury tax payments in revenue sharing.

An actual hard cap would be set at I bet....120 million. The regular cap goes to 118 in 2020. Philly today has 115 million in payroll with like 15+ million in players that barely play.

You could fit whatever you want into a hard cap if players decide they want to win. The 1-2 underpaid young players make it even easier. Anthony Davis is telling a team offering 87 million more than anyone else can to eat a dick and you still think guys wouldnt find a way to play together now and get paid later?

This is a league where people most never heard of make more than HOF quarterbacks in their primes.

They arent worried about the money in the short term anymore. They have 300 million dollar shoe deals, all of them are coming off the rookie extensions that paid them 100-150 million to begin with before they even start to demand out.....and they know they can get another big contract later if they want it. They will "settle" for little money up front for winning.

The Big 3 took Jason Richardson/Carlos Boozer money to play together in Miami. They were all outside the top 20.

What did that matter?

Lebrons NBA money isnt even half of his yearly income.

They are buying rings with reduced salary and making the money up off the court with the added notoriety. Give them the hard cap as high as it would be with all the new tv/internet money the same teams would form and you would just complain that they should get a smaller cut of the revenue because its still so much money they dont feel the loss.

And you know what cutting the players cut gets you?

No NBA.

If you look at it inside the confines of the real world things that would need to happen you know the hard cap is a total non starter and wouldnt stop super teams from forming anyway. It would stop them from lasting long.

But so far none have lasted more than 3-4 years anyway assuming KD walks this season.

You might shorten the window from 4 years to 3 to get the rings in but the net result would be MORE superteams just formed for shorter time windows.

Teams can always empty the roster and sign 2-3 big stars. Always. The cap is just too high with the new money. By the next TV deal its gonna be so high guys will be able to leave money on the table and still take 35 million a piece.

The digital age has ended the hard cap as a realistic deterrent. The guys can still be paid too much to care.

[Kblaze8855]

Really...cap is going to 120 in a year.

Imagine 4 years from now.

130-135 million dollar hard cap.

Pay Giannis 38, Embiid 38, and Trae Young 32 million. Youre still 27 million under the cap. Or if its a bit lower do 35, 35, and 28.

You think NBA stars wont take 28-35 million a year to win a ring then max out later? In 6 years Giannis will be 30, Embiid 31, and Young 26. That would be after signing those deals 4 years from now and playing together for 2 seasons with player options on year 3. They might all be able to go get 220+ million elsewhere. Or more likely just one of them walks/gets traded for underpaid youth to give the remaining team some depth.

You cant stop guys willing to leave some on the table. Not when the cap is going so high leaving some on the table is still DOUBLE what max players were paid as recently as 2012. The influx of digital rights money has left the hard cap a toothless threat. Theres still too much money to hurt them by leaving some on the table.

It isnt like the NFL that has to fit 50+ guys(more with injury) into 170 million. They only need 2-3 difference makers and some cheap shooters. Plus...NFL players arent individually as famous. OBJ has the biggest shoe deal in football history at 5 million a season for 5 years.

Hardens shoe deal is 200 million. KD turned DOWN 285 million from Underarmor. Under armor gave Steph stock options. He might end up a billionaire off that deal in time. Lebrons high school shoe deal would be the 4th most guaranteed money for any NFL contract ever. Zion is gonna get a shoe deal worth more than twice any NFL contract in history before he gets drafted. Hes gonna make 150-200 million from Nike on potential alone.

NBA stars are tycoons. They arent gonna go down a loser in history over a little NBA money.

They make Adidas money. Gatorade money. Chinese money.

The NBAs 30 million will be fine for 2-3 years to get that ring out of the way. And you will absolutely be able to fit 2-3 30 million dollar guys into a team that still has enough shooters to win soon. Even with a hard cap.

[iamgine]

I'm not sure the theory that NBA players will take $30mil vs say, $50mil salary is true. Maybe for a very very limited number of stars? Usually the team they prefer would have to match or at least be close. I've really only seen KD leave a rather significant amount on the table. Or Duncan, but he was 38.

[Real Men Wear Green]

LA would have 30 rings due to the West era but the Knicks would still **** it up.

[TheCorporation]

LA would have 30 rings due to the West era but the Knicks would still **** it up.

Probably the first thing we agree with :lol

[JohnnySic]

MLB's no-cap system is garbage. Its a moot point. NFL does it right with a hard cap (makes the Patriots' run all the more impressive, btw :D.)

[FKAri]

This is the lady walking around with a Virgina ham complaining they have no bread.

Yes....ive been rewatching the Sopranos. But the point is clear.

Every NBA team can compete. You lock guys up for 6-8 years.


KP is about to be the first player in history to turn down the obvious big deal to sign the qualifying offer to be a free agent next year. Everyone till now...EVERY SINGLE ONE signed back to his original team. Most sign another one after that. And all the home teams can pay more than the teams they lose their guys to.


The soft cap gives them the financial advantage. A small baseball team CANT pay what the Yankees do without the owner going into his pocket. They cant generate the revenue to get close. Teams we consider poor in the NBA still offer their stars all the money they can possibly be paid by anyone else and then some.

Its rare you lose an NBA player over the money unless you flat out dont value them that much like Harden and OKC. He told them hed stay for the same money the Rockets offered and they didnt offer it. They chose bigmen. Then the cap spiked and Harden was actually underpaid briefly.

You lose NBA players for money when you just dont care to keep them.

Its not a situation where your whole team is worth less than a big market will pay your star.
Could you or someone else explain to me or lead me to where I can find info on, how the qualifying offer works? From what I understand is that it's a player who is turning down guaranteed money from his current team in favor of what he could get offered in an open market. Is that in the ballpark? What is the incentive to take it or not take it?

[Kblaze8855]

I'm not sure the theory that NBA players will take $30mil vs say, $50mil salary is true. Maybe for a very very limited number of stars? Usually the team they prefer would have to match or at least be close. I've really only seen KD leave a rather significant amount on the table. Or Duncan, but he was 38.


Kevin Garnett has a contract grandfathered in so the post 99 CBA didnt apply to him. After his MVP season he could have signed a deal that would have made him the first 40 million a season player. He was at 28 million a year and the MVP instead of signing for a contract that would pay him 32...then 35....38....41...drops his pay to 16.

Why?

To help the team. To try to win.

A guy like that who could sign for 50 and lose or for 30 and get help wouldnt hesitate. They are already near mogul levels of wealth.

And then you factor in the off the court money? even the non household name guys get more than other athletes.

Lilliard makes more endorsement money than anyone in the NFL. Brady is close but not quite there.

Those shoe deals really tip the scales. Guys who didnt even make the all star team this year make 30-40 million after the shoe deal.

[Kblaze8855]

Could you or someone else explain to me or lead me to where I can find info on, how the qualifying offer works? From what I understand is that it's a player who is turning down guaranteed money from his current team in favor of what he could get offered in an open market. Is that in the ballpark? What is the incentive to take it or not take it?

If you take it play for one year under a small deal(like 4-5 million) and then become an unrestricted free agent.

If the team doesnt give him the qualifying offer hes a restricted FA so he can get offers from other teams but since his current team can offer the most im not sure what the point is if its all about the money. I guess in KPs case he wants to force Dallas to offer him their max after he proves hes healthy and not take a smaller deal now on spec.

Hes risking probably 100+ million hoping for a bigger deal. He knows they would offer him 100+ today but he feels he will prove worthy of more if he plays this year for 5. And being unrestricted he knows Dallas will pay out since he can walk.

[Ben Simmons 25]

This is the lady walking around with a Virgina ham complaining they have no bread.

Yes....ive been rewatching the Sopranos. But the point is clear.

:roll: :roll:

Oh man that show had so many great one liners.

My dad says "whining with a pork chop in your mouth", heh.

[Charlie Sheen]

Still need a George Steinbrenner to blow the market open. His kids don't spend on the team like he did. Nobody in today's game does

[iamgine]

Kevin Garnett has a contract grandfathered in so the post 99 CBA didnt apply to him. After his MVP season he could have signed a deal that would have made him the first 40 million a season player. He was at 28 million a year and the MVP instead of signing for a contract that would pay him 32...then 35....38....41...drops his pay to 16.

Why?

To help the team. To try to win.

A guy like that who could sign for 50 and lose or for 30 and get help wouldnt hesitate. They are already near mogul levels of wealth.

And then you factor in the off the court money? even the non household name guys get more than other athletes.

Lilliard makes more endorsement money than anyone in the NFL. Brady is close but not quite there.

Those shoe deals really tip the scales. Guys who didnt even make the all star team this year make 30-40 million after the shoe deal.
That's like...one person in decades. I'm not sure your theory has enough sample, as much as you'd like to believe it. Even much more evidence to the contrary.

[Kblaze8855]

That's like...one person in decades. I'm not sure your theory has enough sample, as much as you'd like to believe it. Even much more evidence to the contrary.

Im talking about what is happening now and will happen more going forward. Decades ago most players didnt make the money to do these things. Let me give you specifics....

Marvin Bagley...

By the end of his rookie deal between Puma and the NBA he will have made 96 million dollars. The qualifying offer for the last season of his rookie deal is 14.8 million dollars. More than Kobe made in any season before 2006. Bagleys finals rookie deal season...will pay him more than Lebron made his first season with the Heat. The Big 3 were willing to take LESS than Bagleys final rookie deal pay....to win. Thats how much the standards have changed since the TV/internet money came in. The final season of Deandre Aytons rookie deal will pay him 16.4 million dollars. More than Lebron made in 3 of his MVP seasons. THAT is why for the first time ever we have young guys saying you can go **** yourself on a 100 million dollar offer. It literally never happened till now......because guys make epic money out the gate. Enough to get the security guys used to jump at.

Bagley will have earned just under 100 million before he even needs to go into free agency. He will be 23. He signs for a midrange deal at that point? He gets to age 27 already having made 220 million dollars NOT counting his second shoe deal. Its entirely possible he has generated 300 million on/off court before he signs his prime contract. At that point? You can sign a 3 year deal with a 3rd year option for say....110 million. You and two friends who also have 250-300 million can then have earned 400 million dollars by age 30.....AND have rings.

Then what?

Sign anywhere you want for big money. Be 35 having earned 600 million dollars. And you can do that without even being a superstar. That isnt superstar money going forward. Thats borderline all star money. Batum gets 23-27 million a season. Conley 30+. And the cap jump that made that happen only took us from 70 to 91 million. The Cap number for 2020? Its 119 million dollars. The salary FLOOR...the least an NBA team is allowed to spend? Its gonna be about 95 million dollars. Meaning...the LEAST you can pay a team full of total scrubs...is more than the 2010 Lakers were paid to win the title. We have not really wrapped our heads around how much money the league is paying out right now and going forward......

The days of signing for security are ending.

Thats why its so easy to make superteams. Guys can afford to walk away from an extra 87 million like Davis because they already have security. They would rather be the big stars on the new popular super team and go from 200 to 330 million than go from 200-360 million while losing. Especially when they know they will still be young enough to max out later like Durant is about to do. Durant took less...got his rings....and said hes not playing for a discount anymore. Hes showing you how its gonna be done going forward. Of course people didnt do it in 1992. Michael Jordan didnt even make that much on the court. 3 million dollars is a lot....but not a lot for an entire life. And plenty of all stars back then reached their first big contract having made less than that. They had to get paid.

Rookies now know they can have 60-90 million by 23 if they are the worst player ever just off rookie contracts and shoe deals. Theres no risk anymore that forces you to take what you can get. 100 million dollars is walk around money for superteam level players as annoying as it is to hear it.

Between Nike/Adidas/UA/rookie deal Zion will have earned 150 million dollars before he even needs to sign an extension. Why wouldnt he take the qualifying offer that will probably pay him 18 million for a season to be unrestricted?

These players are gonna be doing whatever they want here on out. Its hard to buy a guy who already has a quarter billion dollars and is sick of losing.

[JohnnySic]

I dont think most of the great players care about winning that much, at least not at first. They mainly care about money and playing in warm weather, fun cities. When the time comes to win they can form super teams with their super friends. The NBA has entered some dark territory since The Decision.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont think most of the great players care about winning that much, at least not at first. They mainly care about money and playing in warm weather, fun cities. When the time comes to win they can form super teams with their super friends.

Thats the thing....there is so much money to be made now they can do both.

You can leave money on the table and still make 350-400 million by 30 with a solid shoe deal....and sign a final deal to put you in the 600 million range for your career.

You could legit make half a billion while still teaming up with friends. KAT is gonna hit 220 million in career earnings when hes 27....NOT counting endorsements. Realistically hes sitting on a quarter billion in career earnings when he will have another 5-6 years of prime. By the time hes up for a new deal the cap will be around 130 million dollars. A team could sign 3 guys to 30 million each and have 40 million to play with for role players before they even have to go over the cap......which they would do by signing their own good players back. Plus you always have a young draft pick or two not taking up much money yet.

Every team will have the money for a super team....the players will just decide how to link up and where. You wont even need to have a decent GM. The players will decide who the good teams are in a group chat.

[Ben Simmons 25]

You could be right that their income has gotten so incredibly high that they're going to be more motivated by winning than maxing out their money at certain points in the middle of their primes, but I'll believe it when I see it.

It will be very interesting if you are right.

I'm not saying you're wrong... I don't know... but I do know I've seen a ton of guys motivated exclusively by money over the years... and granted not this much money, but we'll see... I'll believe it when I see it.

I'm an open minded skeptic.

[Kblaze8855]

You are already seeing it we just arent paying attention to how much money these guys leave on the table for freedom. Paul George turned down 219 million from the Pacers and signed for 4 years 137 in OKC....and even they offered 176. He left 82 million dollars on the table. Davis is walking away from 87 million. Durant signed for 2 years 53 million in Golden State when OKC had 230 million dollars for him. This guy risked an injury that could have cost him 170+ million dollars. What does he care? Hes got a 285 million dollar shoe deal.

Guys still want money....but the paydays and endorsements are now so huge the security against injury isnt the motivating factor it used to be. Players used to argue with teams for that extra year or two. The 6-7 year deals. Now? They argue with the team for less years and more player option seasons to get OUT of deals and leave for less money from another team if they want. Teams want the security of a long no outs contract. Many star players players dont want those deals anymore.

The reason everyone until KP decided to take the first 100+ million offer is simple.....you might get hurt and have to live off what you already have. Better to be Arenas paid for nothing than wait it out and see if you get more later.

Now? Guys will leave 90-100 million on the vine because they are already so rich they dont have anything to fear.

The Bagley example I used....

Today..right now...hes gonna have a career earnings of 96 million before his rookie deal ends between NBA and Puma.

Hes already locked up for the kind of money all stars made for a career...not in the 80s and 90s. In the 2000s. Bagley has locked in earnings of the same as Peja made in his entire career. A 3 time all star who signed 2 big deals.

When the Kings offer him 100 million in 2 years...why wouldnt he just take the qualifying offer like KP and play the last year at 16 million which is max contract money as recently as the early 2010s?

You are 23 with almost 100 million in career earning.s You can afford to go to unrestricted free agency and get your way. Make the team bend to your will. Take maybe 3 years 110 million with a player option or two. Or walk to make a superteam with a 3 year deal....

Guys used to need to sign that first big deal to have "Forever" money. Now they will have it out the gate. They can skip to superteam forming at 23 instead of 27-30. Get paid later. They are all gonna make half a billion anyway.

You are gonna be disgusted with these contracts when that 120-130 million cap arrives.

Some guy will get 5 years 270 million dollars and he wont even be that good.

Im not telling you guys dont still care about money. Im telling you guys will have so much money either way they can afford to win at 23-27 and get paid later. The KD model...take less now....demand the real max later...

I think thats the new normal. Zions qualifying offer for the final year of his rookie deal will be for 17-18 million dollars. On the ROOKIE deal hes gonna make more money than Duncan did in any of his first 11 seasons. Added to the 100+ million Nike is gonna offer him in 2 weeks?

This kid will have 160 million before he has to earn anything. IF hes actually good?

Shiiiiiiiiiiit. He wont need Phoenix suns money. He will be able to afford to wait for unrestricted status and take a little less Knicks money to add to his 250 million dollar shoe extension. Or maybe pull a Steph and let Under Armor give him stock options. These guys are thinking long money now. They can get a half a billion in cash from the league plus part ownership in billion dollar corporate entities WHILE superteaming it.

The NBA might try to fight back by shrinking contracts in the next CBA with a lower split to players but thats gonna be a disaster for everyone. The bucket of money is too big for rosters of 12-15 guys to not ALL be ultra rich. And you need the players to feel pressure to take the fast money to keep them loyal. Once they all have 100 million by 23-24....you lose that control.

What you gonna do? Take a smaller TV/Digital rights deal? Nah.

This is all the result of the league making so much money. Gift and a curse.

[eliteballer]

The league isn't doing the small market teams some favor by helping them be competitive.

It's essential to the league.

The really big markets will print money regardless(see the Knicks/Clippers when they've sucked) just because of their sheer size.

It's keeping the fans in smaller markets interested so they go and watch games, purchase merchandise etc.

The vast majority of the population is still outside of the few mega-markets.

It's just more money for the league, and frankly as a fan of a big market team isn't as fun when the deck is stacked in your favor in terms of talent.

Baseball is terrible, I can't fathom how someone can watch it on tv.

However it survives because it's cheap entertainment for middle-aged adults and baby boomers whom baseball is a legacy sport for.

You in Milwaukee or Kansas City, going to a cheap baseball game and drinking for 3 hours is an excuse to go out for entertainment.