All players were carried at least one series (i.e. 06' shaq, 11' lebron), except [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

TheCorporation

03-21-2019, 11:43 PM

1st reply ether. 3ball you've lost a step, time to reinvent yourself for the last leg of your career.....:oldlol:
He's grasping for straws as he watches his idol fade away, right before his very eyes :(

TheCorporation

03-21-2019, 11:45 PM

Like I said, watching as we speak. Things aren't looking too good:

https://i.postimg.cc/Qdf75pjg/20190321-204347.jpg

TheCorporation

03-22-2019, 12:01 AM

21 min now...

This is the closeout game 6 "Killer Jordan" on full display?

https://i.postimg.cc/wvg3GMxx/20190321-205811.jpg

3ball

03-22-2019, 12:44 AM

He's grasping for straws as he watches his idol fade away, right before his very eyes :(
we can pinpoint series where everyone else was carried (88' Finals for kareem.. 06' Finals for shaq... 11' Finals for bron... etc, etc)

But MJ was never carried because was always scored more than everyone in every series he ever played.. and never lost fmvp

It's impossible to be carried if you outscored everyone in every series..

Soundwave

03-22-2019, 12:48 AM

The convenient thing people leave out about the '96 Finals is in the first 3 games, where it actually maybe was a series, Jordan averaged 31 ppg. The Bulls won game 1 by 17 points and game 3 by 18 points, so really those were basically blow outs. Only game 2 was competitive. If the Sonics could've made it a series Jordan probably has more in his usual 33/34 ppg in those first few games.

By the time it was a 3-0 series it was over, everyone including Shawn Kemp's grandma knew it.

The Bulls had destroyed everyone that season and took their foot off the gas pedal for two games so they could celebrate their historic championship in front of the Chicago crowd instead of rainy Seattle.

But that series was a joke. Seattle was never really in any position where they were a threat to the Bulls.

The Bulls playoffs really ended the moment they destroyed Orlando in the Eastern Finals, that was really their Finals. After that the championship coronation was just a formality.

TheCorporation

03-22-2019, 12:48 AM

we can pinpoint series where everyone else was carried (88' Finals for kareem.. 06' Finals for shaq... 11' Finals for bron... etc, etc)

But MJ was never carried because was always scored more than everyone in every series he ever played.. and never lost fmvp

It's impossible to be carried if you outscored everyone in every series..
I watched the full video SouBeach posted and you are dead wrong.

Thread backfire:no:

elementally morale

03-22-2019, 02:28 AM

Hakeem Olajuwon was not carried. Larry Bird was not carried. Isiah Thomas was not carried. Magic... well you can argue 1980 but basically he was not carried.

SpaceJam

03-22-2019, 02:31 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1_hFi-WoAAnH-R.jpg

Yikes, lucky Pippen was there to shoulder the rest of the load

3ball

03-22-2019, 02:37 AM

Hakeem Olajuwon was not carried. Larry Bird was not carried. Isiah Thomas was not carried. Magic... well you can argue 1980 but basically he was not carried.
Bird and Magic lost fmvps to teammates, and teammates outscored them all the time

And Hakeem's teammates outscored and carried him frequently too.. just look at the 96 playoffs.. Drexler outscored him in their loss to the sonics, along with 3 sonics players.. he was just a non-factor and he has several series like that

We can point to series from all players to see when they were carried.. except MJ, because he was the leading scorer every series and always fmvp.. only MJ did this

elementally morale

03-22-2019, 02:39 AM

Bird and Magic lost fmvps to teammates, and teammates outscored them all the time

And Hakeem's teammates outscored and carried him frequently too.. just look at the 96 playoffs.. Drexler outscored him in their loss to the sonics, along with 3 sonics players.. he was just a non-factor and he has several series like that

We can point to series from all players to see when they were carried.. except MJ, because he was the leading scorer every series and always fmvp.. only MJ did this

I feel sorry for you.

Good night.

TheCorporation

03-22-2019, 03:14 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1_hFi-WoAAnH-R.jpg

Yikes, lucky Pippen was there to shoulder the rest of the load

Uh oh :eek:

bUt mJ sCoReD a LoT oF pOinTs

Yeah...LeBron has more.

Bye

LostCause

03-22-2019, 04:07 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1_hFi-WoAAnH-R.jpg

Yikes, lucky Pippen was there to shoulder the rest of the load

Who made this?

Just from looking, the info for the Finals is wrong (Jordan has more assists in the Finals than Pippen does)

I dunno about the different rounds but I'd be skeptical since its pretty clear there's wrong information in it

Gileraracer

03-22-2019, 04:15 AM

He literally got outplayed by Shawn Kemp in 96 and still won Finals MVP

Imagine a final Series where LeBron James get outplayed by Blake Griffin and still wins Finals MVP :lol

Checkmate

Difficult if you usually lose your finals series

SpaceJam

03-22-2019, 04:24 AM

Who made this?

Just from looking, the info for the Finals is wrong (Jordan has more assists in the Finals than Pippen does)

I dunno about the different rounds but I'd be skeptical since its pretty clear there's wrong information in it

Idk I found it on twitter to troll

warriorfan

03-22-2019, 05:37 AM

Bronald stans resorting to intellectual dishonesty... What

sdot_thadon

03-22-2019, 08:59 AM

I've actually never in life heard the term "carried" applied to a series or game someone lost.:wtf: Can anyone explain this concept to me?

Carried...to a loss :oldlol:

StrongLurk

03-22-2019, 09:24 AM

I love how 3ball mentioned 88 Kareem getting carried...Kareem was 40 years old by that point :lol

Jasper

03-22-2019, 10:18 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_qUoOBBlA0

Granted MJ did not have his best series , but as a team as a whole stepped up and did their part.
They acquired Rodman inpart to be part of this team as a defender.
His prowls as a passer shined in this series as well.
Jordan was the glue to the team and was the MVP(.)

And1AllDay

03-22-2019, 03:30 PM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1_hFi-WoAAnH-R.jpg

Yikes, lucky Pippen was there to shoulder the rest of the load

Thank you

People praise Jordan for scoring so much as if he had any other duties to begin with lol

I want someone to find how many other Finals MVPs won with avg 4 reb and 2 assists :oldlol:

And how many others didn't lead the team in anything but scoring and the second option (PIPPEN) led the team in everything but scoring

Smoke117

03-22-2019, 03:55 PM

I love how 3ball mentioned 88 Kareem getting carried...Kareem was 40 years old by that point :lol

Context has never been important to 3ball. Getting his agenda out there is all that matters. Take the 98 finals for instance. He'll always go on about how Pippen only averaged 15.8ppg on 41% shooting. It never comes up that he hurt his back in game 5 and that through the first four games when they went up 3-1 he was averaging 20ppg on 47%fg while being, BY FAR, the best defensive player on the court for both teams. As I've said before, I just don't get how you guys can still be going back and forth with him after YEARS of this nonsense.

The Iron Fist

03-22-2019, 04:29 PM

I watched the full video SouBeach posted and you are dead wrong.

Thread backfire:no:
I saw the series as it happened.

Jordan was the best player.

The Iron Fist

03-22-2019, 04:31 PM

Uh oh :eek:

bUt mJ sCoReD a LoT oF pOinTs

Yeah...LeBron has more losses.
Bye:cheers:

SouBeachTalents

03-22-2019, 04:31 PM

Context has never been important to 3ball. Getting his agenda out there is all that matters. Take the 98 finals for instance. He'll always go on about how Pippen only averaged 15.8ppg on 41% shooting. It never comes up that he hurt his back in game 5 and that through the first four games when they went up 3-1 he was averaging 20ppg on 47%fg while being, BY FAR, the best defensive player on the court for both teams. As I've said before, I just don't get how you guys can still be going back and forth with him after YEARS of this nonsense.
That dude was saying 2015 Mozgov > '98 Pippen :oldlol:

3ball

03-22-2019, 04:36 PM

That dude was saying 2015 Mozgov > '98 Pippen :oldlol:
Lebron was carried in 2011.. Kobe in 2000.. Shaq in 06'

But what about MJ?.. never.. he was never carried - the only guy that was never carried.. kinda hard to get carried when you always lead in scoring and win fmvp everytime.. goat

And1AllDay

03-22-2019, 04:37 PM

SouBeachTalents

03-22-2019, 04:47 PM

Lebron was carried in 2011.. Kobe in 2000.. Shaq in 06'

But what about MJ?.. never.. he was never carried - the only guy that was never carried.. kinda hard to get carried when you always lead in scoring and win fmvp everytime.. goat
'96 Finals

3ball

03-22-2019, 05:01 PM

'96 Finals
Scoring in 1996 Finals:

Jordan - 27
Kemp - 23
Payton - 18
Schrempf - 16
Pippen - 15

MVP - Jordan

Scoring in 2011 Finals:

Wade - 27
Dirk - 25
Terry - 18
Bosh - 18
Lebron - 17

MVP - Dirk

NO COMPARISON

And1AllDay

03-22-2019, 05:02 PM

This better bruh?

https://i.postimg.cc/YCRfWmC6/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/XvTZGVdK/FB-IMG-1538798854277.jpg

3baLLLLL?

And1AllDay

03-22-2019, 05:05 PM

Scoring in 1996 Finals:

Jordan - 27
Kemp - 23
Payton - 18
Schrempf - 16
Pippen - 15

MVP - Jordan

NO COMPARISON

Just imagine it,
Winning Finals MVP over a guy that outplayed you with a better game score.

Okay but was it at least a legend? Like was it Magic vs Bird? Nah, Kemp vs Jordan.

LBJ had KD
LBJ had Duncan
LBJ had Curry

Mike had...Kemp?

3ball

03-22-2019, 05:08 PM

3baLLLLL?
Not worth responding to

MJ led the bulls in scoring by the widest margin in history (15 ppg over 2nd option) and led the bulls in APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Scottie.. so he carried the goat scoring load and led the team in passing, while making all the big shots except the 2 he created for kerr/paxson

3ball

03-22-2019, 05:11 PM

Just imagine it,
Winning Finals MVP over a guy that outplayed you with a better game score.

Okay but was it at least a legend? Like was it Magic vs Bird? Nah, Kemp vs Jordan.

LBJ had KD
LBJ had Duncan
LBJ had Curry

Mike had...Kemp?
Jordan outplayed Kemp, Magic, Malone and Barkley

Lebron was outplayed by Durant (12/17/18).. Dirk (11).. Dwight (09).. Duncan (07).. Pierce (08').. :roll:

And1AllDay

03-22-2019, 05:15 PM

Jordan outplayed Kemp, Magic, Malone and Barkley

Lebron was outplayed by Durant (12/17/18).. Dirk (11).. Dwight (09).. Duncan (07).. Pierce (08').. :roll:
Which one of those years did he win Finals MVP?

And which of those players is worse then Shawn Kemp?

:oldlol: Gotcha now

And1AllDay

03-22-2019, 05:16 PM

Not worth responding to

MJ led the bulls in scoring by the widest margin in history (15 ppg over 2nd option) and led the bulls in APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Scottie.. so he carried the goat scoring load and led the team in passing, while making all the big shots except the 2 he created for kerr/paxson
So it actually looks like Jordan is the only player to be carried in every statistical category :oldlol:

Maybe you titled your thread wrong?

3ball

03-22-2019, 05:22 PM

Which one of those years did he win Finals MVP?

And which of those players is worse then Shawn Kemp?

:oldlol: Gotcha now
Durant/Dirk/Duncan won fmvp over lebron in 07/11/17/18

So a multitude of guys spanning his entire career.. the guy is a just a loser.. and this year at 34, tons of guys are better, whereas MJ was still scoring champ and MVP at 35, let alone 34

Btw, Pierce/Dirk are on the prime "Kemp" level, maybe a little lower, yet lebron got beaten and outplayed by both

TheCorporation

03-22-2019, 06:19 PM

Thread
Backfire
:eek:

3ball

03-22-2019, 06:24 PM

Thread
Backfire
:eek:
Only MJ wasn't carried.. re-read the OP for a refreshing of the facts

Only MJ was never outscored in a series or lost fmvp... :confusedshrug:

It's impossible to be carried if you're leading everyone in scoring for every series and winning fmvp every time . Only MJ did this

TheCorporation

03-22-2019, 06:31 PM

Only MJ wasn't carried.. re-read the OP for a refreshing of the facts

Only MJ was never outscored in a series or lost fmvp... :confusedshrug:

It's impossible to be carried if you're leading everyone in scoring for every series and winning fmvp every time . Only MJ did this

MJ = 1/4 (Points)
Pip = 4/5 (Reb, Assists, Steals, Blocks)

Who was really carrying who?

How many other stars have been carried in 4 of 5 statistical categories?

3ball

03-22-2019, 06:42 PM

MJ = 1/4 (Points)
Pip = 4/5 (Reb, Assists, Steals, Blocks)

Who was really carrying who?

How many other stars have been carried in 4 of 5 statistical categories?
MJ averaged more assists, steals and points, so your claim is false

Furthermore, there's no bigger burden than having to be the league's top scorer to win, and only MJ had to carry that load for all his rings.. :confusedshrug:

while also leading his team in passing (MJ led bulls in APG and assist % for most playoff runs)

Otoh, Lebron was never required to be the league's top scorer to win a ring, let alone double his 2nd option's scoring like MJ in the 93' and 98' Finals... :rolleyes:

ultimately, lebron only won when he had an equal scoring partner and wasn't the league's top scorer, while MJ had to score 10-20 more than his 2nd option in all his Finals, while being the league's top scorer

TheCorporation

03-22-2019, 06:45 PM

3ball

03-22-2019, 07:21 PM

https://i.postimg.cc/YCRfWmC6/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/XvTZGVdK/FB-IMG-1538798854277.jpg

MJ = 1/4 (Points)
Pip = 4/5 (Reb, Assists, Steals, Blocks)

How many other stars have been carried in 4 of 5 statistical categories?

Jordan carried Pippen:

91-93' Playoffs (1st three-peat)

Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 33.7 on 51.7%.. 6.6 apg.. 31.1 ast %.. 2.1 spg.. 2.9 tov.. 29.5 PER
Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 20.1 on 47.3%.. 6.1 apg.. 23.3 ast %.. 2.1 spg.. 3.4 tov...19.6 PER

96-98' Playoffs (2nd three-peat)

Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 31.4 on 45.9%.. 4.1 apg.. 22.3 ast %.. 1.6 spg.. 2.3 tov.. 27.3 PER
Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 17.6 on 40.8%.. 5.0 apg.. 22.0 ast %.. 2.1 spg.. 2.5 tov.. 19.0 PER

Goat scoring load, team-leading passer, goat defender at position, goat clutch = GOAT (easily)
.

sdot_thadon

03-22-2019, 07:25 PM

Don't forget Goat fga....

egokiller

03-22-2019, 07:31 PM

This thread :oldlol:

But seriously, imagine a life where the best you saw was some loser who lost 6 times in the finals and would be 1/9 if not for Kyrie and Ray Allen. A guy who got destroyed by Jason Terry and proved his trips to the finals were a joke once he went to the west. :roll:

3ball

03-22-2019, 07:40 PM

Don't forget Goat fga....
Look what the LeFraud debacle has reduced you to.. a timid, shallow troll with passive-aggressive one-liners

Time to get off that bran-ball bud; it's reducing you to a spot-up poster

Real14

03-22-2019, 07:44 PM

sdot_thadon

03-22-2019, 07:45 PM

Look what the LeFraud debacle has reduced you to.. a timid, shallow troll with passive-aggressive one-liners

Time to get off that bran-ball bud; it's reducing you to a spot-up poster
like how you mimicked my previous joke. You're not a bot after all. Seriously though, when you put up how many points a guy averages in comparison to others it's always relevant to consider shot attempts. Gives the thought more depth, not that you're interested in that sort of thing but as long as you post one dimensional thoughts you'll keep getting wrecked on the 1st page of all your threads.....

3ball

03-22-2019, 07:59 PM

like how you mimicked my previous joke. You're not a bot after all. Seriously though, when you put up how many points a guy averages in comparison to others it's always relevant to consider shot attempts. Gives the thought more depth, not that you're interested in that sort of thing but as long as you post one dimensional thoughts you'll keep getting wrecked on the 1st page of all your threads.....
MJ had equal shooting efficiency and better overall offensive efficiency

so shot attempts don't matter

Except to note that MJ gave his team more (volume) of a good thing (elite efficiency)

mj also MADE a lot more shots than lebron, so he gave his team more fruitful possessions... and he made those shots without ball-dominance, so his team could compete well at the championship level

TheCorporation

03-22-2019, 08:51 PM

MJ had equal shooting efficiency and better overall offensive efficiency

so shot attempts don't matter

Except to note that MJ gave his team more (volume) of a good thing (elite efficiency)

mj also MADE a lot more shots than lebron, so he gave his team more fruitful possessions... and he made those shots without ball-dominance, so his team could compete well at the championship level

MJ = 1/5 (Points)
Pip = 4/5 (Reb, Assists, Steals, Blocks)

How many other stars have been carried in 4 of 5 statistical categories?

3ball

03-22-2019, 09:18 PM

MJ = 1/5 (Points)
Pip = 4/5 (Reb, Assists, Steals, Blocks)

How many other stars have been carried in 4 of 5 statistical categories?
MJ led the bulls in APG and assist percentage in the playoffs

And PPG by the biggest margin ever

That's the goat load

Keep trying though mr. 3/9 stan, no playoffs in the West

TheCorporation

03-22-2019, 09:49 PM

MJ led the bulls in APG and assist percentage in the playoffs

And PPG by the biggest margin ever

That's the goat load

Keep trying though mr. 3/9 stan, no playoffs in the West

Look up at the pic, you're false...

How many other players were carried in 4/5 categories besides MJ?

Is he the most carried star of all time?

TheCorporation

03-22-2019, 09:50 PM

This better bruh?

https://i.postimg.cc/YCRfWmC6/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/XvTZGVdK/FB-IMG-1538798854277.jpg

Oh boy

How many other players were carried in 4/5 categories besides MJ?

Is he the most carried star of all time?

3ball

03-22-2019, 10:14 PM

Oh boy

How many other players were carried in 4/5 categories besides MJ?

Is he the most carried star of all time?

MJ led in assist percentage for both 3-peat runs, so he assisted on the highest proportion of bulls' field goals during the championship runs - he had the biggest slice of the pie, and by a lot during the 1st three-peat.. :applause:

Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced

Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced

So MJ led the team in passing, along with the biggest PPG difference ever, and biggest clutch difference ever... No 2nd option was less clutch than pippen.. no one... so MJ had to do it all

TheCorporation

03-22-2019, 10:20 PM

MJ led in assist percentage for both 3-peat runs, so he assisted on the highest proportion of bulls' field goals during the championship runs - he had the biggest slice of the pie, and by a lot during the 1st three-peat.. :applause:

Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced

Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced

So MJ led the team in passing, along with the biggest PPG difference ever, and biggest clutch difference ever... No 2nd option was less clutch than pippen.. no one... so MJ had to do it all

So has star needed more help than Jordan?

Duncan21formvp

03-22-2019, 10:22 PM

Jordan is the only one who never played with a teammate who won league or finals mvp.

3ball

03-22-2019, 10:30 PM

https://i.postimg.cc/YCRfWmC6/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/XvTZGVdK/FB-IMG-1538798854277.jpg
Oh boy

How many other players were carried in 4/5 categories besides MJ?

Is he the most carried star of all time?

MJ led his team in the most important categories by the most ever (scoring, clutch)

And lebron offset his smaller scoring edge and notable clutch deficit (to his 2nd option), by adding small edges in defensive rebounds and assists

Only a fool can't understand that small edges in more categories isn't nearly as good as goat edges in the most important categories.. one is 6/6 in the championship; the other 0*/9 (none without colluding or teammate shots)

And again, MJ assisted on the biggest portion of bulls' field goals during the championship runs, so your data is outdated

3ball

03-23-2019, 12:00 AM

So has star needed more help than Jordan?
Lebron needed more help to win 3 rings because he only averaged 27.2 and 7.2 apg in the 12/13/16 playoffs versus 33.7 and 6.6 for MJ in 91-93' playoffs

So either lebron needed more help to win, or his rings required less production to win..

Furthermore, for their first 3 rings, both MJ and lebron averaged 7 apg to lead their team, but MJ led his team in scoring/clutch by goat amounts, while lebron needed a near-equal scoring partner and better clutch partner

lebron also needs way more help because he needs a team willing to sacrifice teammate/team assists and brand of ball so he can dominate the ball and get assists - it's a fact that teammates see their assists crater next to him, while the team has low assist rankings and gets massively out-assisted in the championship

NBASTATMAN

03-23-2019, 01:21 AM

MJ because he was never outscored by a teammate or opponent in any series, or lost fmvp

goat

https://media.tenor.com/images/258addfe3528543124a9c703da4ccece/tenor.gif

that is because he took so many darn shots.. He played one good game in 1993 vs the KNICKS.. He could have not played that series and the Bulls would have won that series..

3ball

03-23-2019, 01:24 AM

that is because he took so many darn shots.. He played one good game in 1993 vs the KNICKS.. He could have not played that series and the Bulls would have won that series..
MJ had the same shooting efficiency as lebron, ~ 57 ts

So he did more than lebron (volume) of a good thing (57% ts)

MJ simply did more

NBASTATMAN

03-23-2019, 01:26 AM

MJ had the same shooting efficiency as lebron, ~ 57 ts

So he did more than lebron (volume) of a good thing (57% ts)

MJ simply did more

The next year they beat the Knicks without Mj up until David Stern happened.. You know that wasnt a foul.. LOL

3ball

03-23-2019, 01:32 AM

The next year they beat the Knicks without Mj up until David Stern happened.. You know that wasnt a foul.. LOL
It's pretty dumb to foul a 3-point shooter - that's the first thing they teach in junior high

That foul and the sit-out game, along with a horrible game 7 were three chokes in 1 series for pip

But they still had a chance because they'd developed the best brand of basketball and teamwork, as required to build any dynasty..

Those bulls only won 47 games in 1989 and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without mj's 33/8/8.. so that was a lottery roster that MJ developed into a dynasty by 91'.. it all started with that goat carry-job in 89', where they nearly made the Finals with a 6 seed

And1AllDay

03-23-2019, 01:33 AM

The next year they beat the Knicks without Mj up until David Stern happened.. You know that wasnt a foul.. LOL

True but he just wont admit it

3ball

03-23-2019, 01:37 AM

True but he just wont admit it
Heck yeah it was a foul - watch the tape

A hideous foul

That foul and the sit-out game, along with a horrible game 7 were three chokes in 1 series for pip

But they still had a chance because they'd developed the best brand of basketball and teamwork, as required to build any dynasty..

Those bulls only won 47 games in 1989 and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without mj's 33/8/8.. so that was a lottery roster that MJ developed into a dynasty by 91'.. it all started with that goat carry-job in 89' (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12055953&postcount=40), where they nearly made the Finals with a 6 seed