Is LeBron really a better passer than mj?

[Bronbron23]

On it's face I realize that this looks troll worthy but bare with me. Lebron is basically a ball dominant point gaurd that has his teams running everything through him. mj was a 2 gaurd that played in the triangle. Shouldn't he average more than 7 assists a game? He should get way more than 2 assists more a game than mj who was a 2 gaurd. he actually gets a little less than 2 more and it's closer to only one more in the playoffs. Even Westbrook and harden who are just average passers get more assists than lebron when playing the same ball dominant style.

When mj played a similar role in 89 for a quarter of the season he almost averaged a tripple double for those games and ended up with 8 assists per game for the year. It's safe to say if mj played that style his whole career he could of easily kept those numbers up or close to it.

So is LeBron actually a better passer or is it just that he's a point gaurd playing a ball dominant style which leads to more opportunities to get more assists?

[MrFonzworth]

Yes. Tl;dr.

[knicksman]

if youre insecure, you care about stats.

[sdot_thadon]

No Op, Mj's 11 game stretch where he averaged a triple double is irrefutable proof:oldlol:

Sarcasm aside, can we really classify a guy who averages 27 ppg for his career a pg in the same way we do guys who average 15-20? He's not a traditional pg at all. With your user name I'd figure you've seen enough game of his to know that his teammates can't always convert their opportunities, no one can. I'm sure he's created more easy opportunities for his teammates than Mj ever did that's the difference more than any stat can paint.

[StrongLurk]

Is Jordan really a better scorer than Lebron? Jordan really just shot the ball more per game :confusedshrug:

[Jasper]

ok enough of this boy shlt.
I saw both players play.

Mj took majority of shots and when the shot was not there he found the open guy.

Lebron see's the whole floor , so he might be the 2nd or 3rd pass to an assist , but he is the ultimate creator... seeing how everything will create.

Players as well as scouts have stated that Lebron is one of the smartest players in the history of the game.

MJ is the goat because of his offensive shot as well as his defense.

** I still feel that if Lebron would of stayed in one place / he would of had more titles.
** I still feel if MJ did not go to baseball , he would of won 9 titles.

[superduper]

if youre insecure, you care about stats.

/thread

[PP34Deuce]

ok enough of this boy shlt.
I saw both players play.

Mj took majority of shots and when the shot was not there he found the open guy.

Lebron see's the whole floor , so he might be the 2nd or 3rd pass to an assist , but he is the ultimate creator... seeing how everything will create.

Players as well as scouts have stated that Lebron is one of the smartest players in the history of the game.

MJ is the goat because of his offensive shot as well as his defense.

** I still feel that if Lebron would of stayed in one place / he would of had more titles.
** I still feel if MJ did not go to baseball , he would of won 9 titles.

THIS. MJ is very good passer but usually did it as a bail out or when he didn't have a shot.

Lebron passes: high post, low post, transition, drive and kick, etc....

[bizil]

I would say Bron is the better passer. For starters, he's a pass first player. Not as pass first as PG's like a Magic, Zeke, Stockton, Nash, Kidd, etc. But still looks to pass first. And from there, the passes with flair or passing guys open makes Bron and Bird the top passing forwards ever.

BUT among SG's or score first type players, MJ is among the best passers of all time. Most of today's PG's ACTUALLY think more like MJ, Kobe, and AI than they do pass first PG's. Which is being dominant scorers WHO ALSO have elite floor general skills. They just do it from a score first mindset.

BUT with these types of players, they aren't the passers/floor generals that Bron and the legendary pass first PG's are. Some guys are great passers, but can ALSO be great scorers. That's Bron. Some guys are great scorers, but can ALSO be great passers. That's MJ. The ONLY THING they really have in common is being true total packages in terms of freak athletic ability, scoring, passing, rebounding their position, and defense. BUT their body types and approach are TOTALLY opposite of each other.

[Phoenix]

BUT among SG's or score first type players, MJ is among the best passers of all time. Most of today's PG's ACTUALLY think more like MJ, Kobe, and AI than they do pass first PG's. Which is being dominant scorers WHO ALSO have elite floor general skills. They just do it from a score first mindset.



Modern rules facilitate your PG being a prime offensive weapon for your team now and it being in your teams best interests more often than not. They really 'think' that way because the game has become that way so the players are just following suite with the times. Rockets with Harden( he's basically a combo guard at this point). Warriors with Steph. OKC with Westbrook. Kyrie with Boston. Lillard with Portland. Of course, there's a few top teams that don't have elite 25ppg + PGs but most of the successful teams now feature that kind of player running the show.

[bizil]

Modern rules facilitate your PG being a prime offensive weapon for your team now and it being in your teams best interests more often than not. They really 'think' that way because the game has become that way so the players are just following suite with the times. Rockets with Harden( he's basically a combo guard at this point). Warriors with Steph. OKC with Westbrook. Kyrie with Boston. Lillard with Portland. Of course, there's a few top teams that don't have elite 25ppg + PGs but most of the successful teams now feature that kind of player running the show.

I agree! It's puts so much damn pressure on a defense. And it's evolution of the position quite frankly. There have always been combo guards in NBA history. But as u stated, the rules make having a dominant score first PG in today's game a premium type thing. PG's like CP3 and Simmons are the exception to the rule in today's game.

[sd3035]

MJ would have averaged at least 12 assists playing Lebron ball

Lebron is a poor man's James Harden when it comes to passing

[bizil]

Some posters are missing the point!! It's NOT ABOUT the number of assists! It's about the MENTALITY that's the difference a lot of the time. Bron and MJ ARE BOTH great passers for their positions! But's Bron floor vision AND pass first nature give him the edge in terms of passing. Westbrook and Harden HAVE PROVEN u can average 10 assists a night from a score first mindest. But do u ACTUALLY think they are just as good or better passers than a Magic, Kidd, or Stockton???

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I used to say he was, but that's mainly due to volume (number of assists, willing to pass etc).

Technicality as a passer? They're equal imo. MJ is actually underrated as a passer. Most people talk about his scoring and defense, and rightfully so. His passing helped mold the triangle offense though. The triangle also neutered his cumulative totals.

Without a structured offense and 'free reign'? You saw the x/y/z stats Jordan put up. Checkout the 88 and 89 seasons. Doug Collins basically let Mike do whatever he wanted.

[jstern]

Jordan's team seem to average more assists, near the top of the league, while with Lebron's dominant style they're usually in the middle, or closer to last in the league.

[TheCorporation]

Is Jordan better than anything than LeBron?

Scoring? No
Rebounding? No
Playmaking? No
Clutch? No
Passing? No
Defense? No
Gambling? Yes
Building prisons? Yes
Punching teammates? Yes
Beating super teams? No
Beating dynasties? No

Welcome to the forums, any other questions feel free to ask :cheers:

[Bronbron23]

No Op, Mj's 11 game stretch where he averaged a triple double is irrefutable proof:oldlol:

Sarcasm aside, can we really classify a guy who averages 27 ppg for his career a pg in the same way we do guys who average 15-20? He's not a traditional pg at all. With your user name I'd figure you've seen enough game of his to know that his teammates can't always convert their opportunities, no one can. I'm sure he's created more easy opportunities for his teammates than Mj ever did that's the difference more than any stat can paint.
Well a point gaurd is just a position and LeBron definitely plays the point. I agree he has created more open looks for his teammates but again he's playing the point position in a ball dominant system so that's gonna happen. I know mj's 89 season is a small sample size but he did the exact same when put in that position. If he had played the point the entire season he would of easily matched or passed LeBron for most assists per game in a single season.

And you can't blame LeBron's assists numbers on teammates missing shots. He's had much better help offensively than Jordan did.

[superduper]

Honest question to the statnerds, are you guys truly shocked that Bran has more assists than Jordan when you consider that for majority of Jordan's career he was confined to an offensive system which limits individual assist totals? You guys are unable to grasp the fact that for Bran's entire career he had FREE WILL over his offenses for 16 years to do as he pleases with absolutely nothing holding him back?

The sooner you guys realize stats are a joke the less embarrassing Bran's demise these next 3 years will be for you guys

[Bronbron23]

Is Jordan really a better scorer than Lebron? Jordan really just shot the ball more per game :confusedshrug:
LeBron is definitely up there with mj and the best scorers. Can't deny that. It was tougher to score in mj's era though so that's a big factor. I know alot of people want to pretend like all the rule changes hasn't made it easier to score in this era but it really has. Even with though LeBron is still very close to mj in scoring. I just think mj is just as close when it comes to assists.

[bizil]

I used to say he was, but that's mainly due to volume (number of assists, willing to pass etc).

Technicality as a passer? They're equal imo. MJ is actually underrated as a passer. Most people talk about his scoring and defense, and rightfully so. His passing helped mold the triangle offense though. The triangle also neutered his cumulative totals.

Without a structured offense and 'free reign'? You saw the x/y/z stats Jordan put up. Checkout the 88 and 89 seasons. Doug Collins basically let Mike do whatever he wanted.

Good points! I think MJ is a top 3 passing SG of all time. He was EVERY BIT a total package as Bron was in terms of scoring-passing-rebounding-defending his position. The biggest difference in terms of all around ability is Bron's positional versatility. Because he can play PG-SG-SF-PF at 6'8 and 250+ pounds.

But in terms of passing, MJ is among the very best EVER among score first types of players. Shit like that is WHAT ENABLED him to pass a prime Bird and Magic by back in the day. To better than BOTH of those guys on the perimeter, u HAD to have great passing ability as part of your arsenal. U couldn't just be a dominant scorer. Because Magic and Bird could be great passers AND scorers in one package!

[LeCola]

I really wonder how much Lebron's assist stats would decrease if he played with "zone is disallowed" rules.

[MrFonzworth]

I really wonder how much Lebron's assist stats would decrease if he played with "zone is disallowed" rules.
LeCola? What does that even mean? When are you gonna stop making alts you obese ****?

[LeCola]

LeCola? What does that even mean? When are you gonna stop making alts you obese ****?

If you you call me someones alt you should prove it. You **** ** a ****! **** ** ****** you **********.

[LeCola]

LeCola? What does that even mean? When are you gonna stop making alts you obese ****?

LeCola is a cola brand, if you can google it you can learn what it is, unless you are a 80 iq guy.

[And1AllDay]

LeCola? What does that even mean? When are you gonna stop making alts you obese ****?

Big wrekt :oldlol: :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

If you you call me someones alt you should prove it. You **** ** a ****! **** ** ****** you **********.

Chill bruh it still says your trying to learn how to make layups so RELAX

[And1AllDay]

I really wonder how much Lebron's assist stats would decrease if he played with "zone is disallowed" rules.

Mike played when double teams were illegal so think about that for one second and tell me if you think his points would drop way down becos they would. There is a thread about it maybe I will bump it

[LeCola]

Mike played when double teams were illegal so think about that for one second and tell me if you think his points would drop way down becos they would. There is a thread about it maybe I will bump it

His points would increase with current rules. In those years not only zone was illegal, also 3-second rule was different and centers were camping in paint. Instead of his era, being huge and have ability to protect rim was more important than having soft hands or making 3pt shots.

So, it was much harder to finish near rim. In this era, he would boost his both points and assist with Bronball.

Drive to paint:
A-In someone comes for hp defence pass it to his man. It will be a easy shot and assist.
B-Else, attack the rim. You will probably finish it or go to line with taking advantage current 3-seconds rule.

In addition, when zone is illegal it means guards would mostly stay outside while defence. It makes harder to get a defensive rebound as a guard.

Therefore, if Jordan played in this era, bis all points, assists, rebounds stats would increase. Even some seasons he could average 35+/10+/10+.

This is the era Westbrook averages triple double stats for 3 consecutive years as a guard.

[PP34Deuce]

Most people and legends would even laugh at you guys for trying to discredit both guys.

MJ was a great passer out of double teams.

Lebron can do that and also create high percentage shots. A lot of you fall blind to the hate you have and the occasional bail out pass Lebron gives. He passes out of double teams, high post, drive and kick, low post, he's just a better passer than MJ.

Use the "He dominates the ball" but fail to recognize that most of the time he creates the best offensive possession for the team.

Use the "Jordan was in the system" and people fail to realize he and Kobe could break the triangle and did. Pippen broke the triangle throughout games when he lead the bulls to 55 wins. It's not like Duncan who literally plays in system where he held back on major stat lines.

[PP34Deuce]

His points would increase with current rules. In those years not only zone was illegal, also 3-second rule was different and centers were camping in paint. Instead of his era, being huge and have ability to protect rim was more important than having soft hands or making 3pt shots.

So, it was much harder to finish near rim. In this era, he would boost his both points and assist with Bronball.

Drive to paint:
A-In someone comes for hp defence pass it to his man. It will be a easy shot and assist.
B-Else, attack the rim. You will probably finish it or go to line with taking advantage current 3-seconds rule.

In addition, when zone is illegal it means guards would mostly stay outside while defence. It makes harder to get a defensive rebound as a guard.

Therefore, if Jordan played in this era, bis all points, assists, rebounds stats would increase. Even some seasons he could average 35+/10+/10+.

This is the era Westbrook averages triple double stats for 3 consecutive years as a guard.

All hypothetical, but in today's (we'll say 2011-), MJ would be feasting. A lot of you are failing to adjust how much more athletic guys are today with more complex switch defense.

Sharpshooters of yesteryear (Allen Houston, Reggie, etc) didn't spam 3 pointers like the game does today. A lot more movement now. MJ would get occasionally lit up by guys he wasn't paying attention to.

[tpols]

Jordan's team seem to average more assists, near the top of the league, while with Lebron's dominant style they're usually in the middle, or closer to last in the league.


Bingo.

Assists gathered by westbrooking are less impressive.

[And1AllDay]

Is Jordan better than anything than LeBron?

Scoring? No
Rebounding? No
Playmaking? No
Clutch? No
Passing? No
Defense? No
Gambling? Yes
Building prisons? Yes
Punching teammates? Yes
Beating super teams? No
Beating dynasties? No

Welcome to the forums, any other questions feel free to ask :cheers:

:eek:

[andgar923]

Lebron passes more
Lebron has the ball more

That does not = 'better' passer

MJ is a better 'creator' and has a better sense of the game than Bron will ever have.

Most of Bron's assists come from drive and kick, something that most of today's players do (see Harden, Westbrook) and isn't necessarily the sign of a great passer (just one aspect).

MJ was able to create by attacking the defence, getting them off balance and finding gaps where there were none.

More importantly, he puts his teammates in position to get high efficient field goals. F*ck I can go out there and just throw to a 3pt shooter all day and will eventually rack up assists. But setting up your teammates for easier high percentage shots is harder to do.

Not saying that Bron does not do this, just not enough compared to MJ
Not saying that MJ didn't do drive and kick, just wasn't his main source of dishing out.

Bron is indeed one of the best passers of all time, but MJ gets highly underrated for his passing and is the better passer.

[Manny98]

Honest question to the statnerds, are you guys truly shocked that Bran has more assists than Jordan when you consider that for majority of Jordan's career he was confined to an offensive system which limits individual assist totals? You guys are unable to grasp the fact that for Bran's entire career he had FREE WILL over his offenses for 16 years to do as he pleases with absolutely nothing holding him back?

The sooner you guys realize stats are a joke the less embarrassing Bran's demise these next 3 years will be for you guys
No MJs teams had higher assist totals so individual assist totals were actually less limited

Less ball movement = less assist opportunitys

[Manny98]

Anyone that says "all LeBron does is drive and kick" doesn't watch LeBron enough

[Manny98]

If you you call me someones alt you should prove it. You **** ** a ****! **** ** ****** you **********.
Meltdown

[andgar923]

Anyone that says "all LeBron does is drive and kick" doesn't watch LeBron enough

Um... that's the vast majority of his assists. Oh and pick and roll.

It's great and all, but not as impressive as 'creating' easier shots for others which MJ did more consistently.

[andgar923]

No MJs teams had higher assist totals so individual assist totals were actually less limited

Less ball movement = less assist opportunitys

Unless you control the ball, then YES less opportunities for 'others'.

If you control the ball then of course there will be less assists as a whole because the ball doesn't move enough. But the person controlling the ball will get those assists.

[3ball]

Jordan is the only player to average 10+ apg without playing point guard and bringing the ball up the floor (91 Finals)

Otoh, lebron needs to hold the ball longer than anyone ever has to get 10 apg in the Finals

i.e. lebron's hold-time was 12.2 minutes per game in the 15' Finals, compared to Harden's 9.5 minutes this year... Let that sink in.. To get his stats, lebron holds the ball longer than anyone EVER..

that isn't impressive, especially since his ball-domination and assist-padding comes at the expense of TEAM assists/ball movement.. consequently, the team can't compete well at the championship level

[andgar923]

Jordan is the only player to average 10+ apg without playing point guard and bringing the ball up the floor (91 Finals)

Otoh, lebron needs to hold the ball longer than anyone ever has to get 10 apg in the Finals

i.e. lebron's hold-time was 12.2 minutes per game in the 15' Finals, compared to Harden's 9.5 minutes this year... Let that sink in.. To get his stats, lebron holds the ball longer than anyone EVER..

that isn't impressive, especially since his ball-domination and assist-padding comes at the expense of TEAM assists/ball movement.. consequently, the team can't compete well at the championship level

He literally holds the ball for half the shot clock???

I used to exaggerate when I trolled Bron Stans, but sh*t that's bonkers.

[Manny98]

Um... that's the vast majority of his assists. Oh and pick and roll.

It's great and all, but not as impressive as 'creating' easier shots for others which MJ did more consistently.
No he gets a lot of his assists in transition

Magic is the only player ever that is a better transition passer than LeBron

There is no easier shot than the Corner 3 which LeBron is the very best at putting shooters in position for a easy open shot

MJ wasn't close to LeBron as a passer he never had the court vision and the passing accuracy that LeBron possesses

[Manny98]

He literally holds the ball for half the shot clock???

I used to exaggerate when I trolled Bron Stans, but sh*t that's bonkers.
No he doesn't that was just one series where he was playing without a legitimate point guard so he had to hold the ball for that long

Generally his time of possession is not even that high compared to the likes of Harden,Westbrook and Wall

[TheCorporation]

Jordan is the only player to average 10+ apg without playing point guard and bringing the ball up the floor (91 Finals)

Otoh, lebron needs to hold the ball longer than anyone ever has to get 10 apg in the Finals

i.e. lebron's hold-time was 12.2 minutes per game in the 15' Finals, compared to Harden's 9.5 minutes this year... Let that sink in.. To get his stats, lebron holds the ball longer than anyone EVER..

that isn't impressive, especially since his ball-domination and assist-padding comes at the expense of TEAM assists/ball movement.. consequently, the team can't compete well at the championship level

You keep talking about points. Yes we know he dropped a bunch of points on Starks and Hornacek.

However, aside from MJ, how many players were carried in four of five categories?

Was anybody carried more than MJ?

[Gus Hemmingway]

Is LeBron really a better passer than mj?

yep, light years

MJ wasn't even close to the floor general Lebron is, Jordan's not even top 50 passers all time. Lebron is Top 10 consensus and up there with Magic/Stockton/Bird's etc

Jordan was universally mocked for being a ball hogging chucker for 3/4's his career, never once recognized as a quality playmaker/passer :oldlol:

[andgar923]

No he doesn't that was just one series where he was playing without a legitimate point guard so he had to hold the ball for that long

Generally his time of possession is not even that high compared to the likes of Harden,Westbrook and Wall

Even then, he still holds the ball longer than MJ did.

And I can almost bet that Magic and Bird held the ball less.

I've seen him play his entire career (going back to high school), he takes longer than they do to read and react.

His court vision is on par with the greats no doubt, but he tends to be slower than they do. Partially due to the type of offensive plays, part is his style of play.

If you saw them play you'd notice a big difference on how they approach the game and how they pass.

[Manny98]

"all LeBron does is drive and kick" they said :rolleyes:

https://i.postimg.cc/k5JFRB56/Legal-Feisty-Honeyeater-size-restricted.gif

More GIFs to come to display how much inferior Jordan is to LeBron in passing ability :cheers:

[Manny98]

Show me MJ or Bird throwing passes like this I'll wait


https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2RslIzgE6BJfHO/giphy.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MajorSpanishBittern-size_restricted.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/TP228Xkv/lebron-MVP-medium.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/BvN6tv8v/AOUt.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/prL1xqwT/lepasstobattier.gif

[And1AllDay]

Show me MJ or Bird throwing passes like this I'll wait


https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2RslIzgE6BJfHO/giphy.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MajorSpanishBittern-size_restricted.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/TP228Xkv/lebron-MVP-medium.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/BvN6tv8v/AOUt.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/prL1xqwT/lepasstobattier.gif

BLOOD BATH

Manny out here takin kill shots

oooh weeee

[And1AllDay]

MJ wasn't even the best passer on his own team bruh :oldlol:

This thread too funny tho

[TheCorporation]

Show me MJ or Bird throwing passes like this I'll wait


https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2RslIzgE6BJfHO/giphy.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MajorSpanishBittern-size_restricted.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/TP228Xkv/lebron-MVP-medium.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/BvN6tv8v/AOUt.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/prL1xqwT/lepasstobattier.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/KYnny3n6/tenor.gif

[Manny98]

LeBron only drives and kicks doe

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DeliriousHollowAlleycat-size_restricted.gif

[SpaceJam2]

Show me MJ or Bird throwing passes like this I'll wait


https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2RslIzgE6BJfHO/giphy.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MajorSpanishBittern-size_restricted.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/TP228Xkv/lebron-MVP-medium.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/BvN6tv8v/AOUt.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/prL1xqwT/lepasstobattier.gif

Manny you keep messin around murdering kids like this and the police comin for ya!

Another massacre by MannyDaMassacrest

[SpaceJam2]

LeBron only drives and kicks doe

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DeliriousHollowAlleycat-size_restricted.gif

Out here killing em

Got a license to kill Manny? Goodness gracious boy

[Manny98]

https://i.postimg.cc/ncDVYwHy/LEBPASS-0.gif


I don't see anyone else throwing these types of passes :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Elosha]

Show me MJ or Bird throwing passes like this I'll wait


https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2RslIzgE6BJfHO/giphy.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MajorSpanishBittern-size_restricted.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/TP228Xkv/lebron-MVP-medium.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/BvN6tv8v/AOUt.gif


https://i.postimg.cc/prL1xqwT/lepasstobattier.gif

:rolleyes: You do realize that it's a lot easier to find every unique LeBron pass then it is to find Jordan's right? Since over half of Jordan's games are not recorded? In any event, a simple youtube search of Jordan passing highlights easily yields the same type of results. Behind the backs, lookaways, touch passes, full court outlets, change in the air from shot to pass, bullet passes across court. Here's just a couple short highlights that demonstrate all of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaqbclM08c

https://youtu.be/jwLSS79ETHs

Of course LeBron is going to have more highlights with bullet passes across court to a three point shooter simply because the three ball is such a more common shot than when Jordan played.

They're both great passers in their own right. Jordan did have more of a mind to score and was content to let Scottie initiate the offense frequently, which led to sometimes fewer personal assists, although the Bulls (unlike LeBron's teams) almost always ranked high in team assists. But Jordan's court vision and skill at passing were great.

Some might say LeBron is a more willing passer. That may be correct but the statement lacks context. LeBron is willing to pass to teammates on his own terms and dictated by his own style of play. In a sense Jordan did that too, but LeBron's passing demands that his teammates cater to his exact playing specifications to receive the "advantage" of LeBron's easily set up passes. And since LeBron's passing is so often predicated on pick and roll, pop and kick, or one on one (all relatively simple styles of offense), a team with smart team defense can negate that style to a great deal. Teams can play LeBron for the "pass," they could never do that with Jordan.

[Manny98]

:rolleyes: You do realize that it's a lot easier to find every unique LeBron pass then it is to find Jordan's right? Since over half of Jordan's games are not recorded? In any event, a simple youtube search of Jordan passing highlights easily yields the same type of results. Behind the backs, lookaways, touch passes, full court outlets, change in the air from shot to pass, bullet passes across court. Here's just a couple short highlights that demonstrate all of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaqbclM08c

https://youtu.be/jwLSS79ETHs

Of course LeBron is going to have more highlights with bullet passes across court to a three point shooter simply because the three ball is such a more common shot than when Jordan played.

They're both great passers in their own right. Jordan did have more of a mind to score and was content to let Scottie initiate the offense frequently, which led to sometimes fewer personal assists, although the Bulls (unlike LeBron's teams) almost always ranked high in team assists. But Jordan's court vision and skill at passing were great.

Some might say LeBron is a more willing passer. That may be correct but the statement lacks context. LeBron is willing to pass to teammates on his own terms and dictated by his own style of play. In a sense Jordan did that too, but LeBron's passing demands that his teammates cater to his exact playing specifications to receive the "advantage" of LeBron's easily set up passes. And since LeBron's passing is so often predicated on pick and roll, pop and kick, or one on one (all relatively simple styles of offense), a team with smart team defense can negate that style to a great deal. Teams can play LeBron for the "pass," they could never do that with Jordan.
Jordans a good passer. One of the best passers ever at the shooting guard position. I believe he can easily be a full time PG if he wanted to but to say him and LeBron are equal or on the same level as passers is ridiculous and full on trolling

[Elosha]

Jordans a good passer. One of the best passers ever at the shooting guard position. I believe he can easily be a full time PG if he wanted to but to say him and LeBron are equal or on the same level as passers is ridiculous and full on trolling


It's ironic to see you accuse me of trolling. :D See this is where context comes in. Nowhere did I say Jordan's a "greater" passer (in the statistical sense) than LeBron. But that's not because LeBron is an inherently more skilled passer or possesses way better court vision. They are both very skilled in the art of passing. LeBron's a more willing passer and thus racks up more assists but that is largely a function of how much he personally controls the ball and the style of play he dictates. Plus LeBron never played alongside a playmaker like Pippen or in a more egalitarian offense like the triangle. Honestly, I don't think LeBron would much like to play in such systems, or ones like GS or the Tim Duncan Spurs, as they'd stymie his time of possession and complete control of the offense, which would likely lead to better team results but lower stats for him.

Also, LeBron's higher assists come as a function not only of his style of play, but also as a function of a relatively smaller offensive repertoire. Meaning that in a situation where Jordan could and would find a scoring opportunity in the half court, LeBron might have to dump it off. And of course, sometimes such a pass is the "correct" basketball decision, and sometimes it is not.

[SpaceJam2]

It's ironic to see you accuse me of trolling. :D See this is where context comes in. Nowhere did I say Jordan's a "greater" passer (in the statistical sense) than LeBron. But that's not because LeBron is an inherently more skilled passer or possesses way better court vision. They are both very skilled in the art of passing. LeBron's a more willing passer and thus racks up more assists but that is largely a function of how much he personally controls the ball and the style of play he dictates. Plus LeBron never played alongside a playmaker like Pippen or in a more egalitarian offense like the triangle. Honestly, I don't think LeBron would much like to play in such systems, or ones like GS or the Tim Duncan Spurs, as they'd stymie his time of possession and complete control of the offense, which would likely lead to better team results but lower stats for him.

Also, LeBron's higher assists come as a function not only of his style of play, but also as a function of a relatively smaller offensive repertoire. Meaning that in a situation where Jordan could and would find a scoring opportunity in the half court, LeBron might have to dump it off. And of course, sometimes such a pass is the "correct" basketball decision, and sometimes it is not.

LeBron has
-Higher IQ
-Better court vision
-Stronger
-Better assist to turnover ratio
-More versatile

What are we even arguing here? IT'S OVA

[Manny98]

It's ironic to see you accuse me of trolling. :D See this is where context comes in. Nowhere did I say Jordan's a "greater" passer (in the statistical sense) than LeBron. But that's not because LeBron is an inherently more skilled passer or possesses way better court vision. They are both very skilled in the art of passing. LeBron's a more willing passer and thus racks up more assists but that is largely a function of how much he personally controls the ball and the style of play he dictates. Plus LeBron never played alongside a playmaker like Pippen or in a more egalitarian offense like the triangle. Honestly, I don't think LeBron would much like to play in such systems, or ones like GS or the Tim Duncan Spurs, as they'd stymie his time of possession and complete control of the offense, which would likely lead to better team results but lower stats for him.

Also, LeBron's higher assists come as a function not only of his style of play, but also as a function of a relatively smaller offensive repertoire. Meaning that in a situation where Jordan could and would find a scoring opportunity in the half court, LeBron might have to dump it off. And of course, sometimes such a pass is the "correct" basketball decision, and sometimes it is not.
It's not even about assist numbers LeBrons is simply a better passer. He has better court vision by far. His ability to find the ball right where the shooter wants it is a big reason why he has so much success with shooters.

Why would you want to play a player like LeBron in a system in the first place where the ball is out of his hands and he's put in a restricted role in the offense, that's just dumb

[LAmbruh]

Jordan was never a top 20 passer in the league at anytime :oldlol:


Lebron's been top 5 since rookie year

[Bronbron23]

LeBron has
-Higher IQ
-Better court vision
-Stronger
-Better assist to turnover ratio
-More versatile

What are we even arguing here? IT'S OVA
I wouldn't argue with better court vision,stronger or ass to turnover ratio but he's definitely doesn't have a higher iq and isn't more versatile

[Elosha]

LeBron has
-Higher IQ So that's why he's 3/9, missed the playoffs first year in the West, and gave up Finals MVP to his opposing player 4 times. A higher IQ than Jordan.
-Better court vision The both have excellent court vision, there is very little way to measure this other than subjective opinion
-Stronger What does that have to do with passing
-Better assist to turnover ratio From https://doubledribble.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/lebron-james-vs-michael-jordan-a-statistical-comparison-pace-adjusted/
MJ and Bron have very similar assist to turnover ratios. When we factor in attempts to create scores (FGA – 3PA + AST) to get a “plays made” estimate. Creating a plays made to turnover ratio, we show that Jordan is more efficient as an all-around points creator for his team.

Plays Made / Turnover:

Jordan: 11.4 to 1

James: 7.8 to 1
-More versatile What does that have to do with passing?

What are we even arguing here? IT'S OVA

Ok sure. :rolleyes: See my response in bold abovve

[SpaceJam2]

Jordan was never a top 20 passer in the league at anytime :oldlol:


Lebron's been top 5 since rookie year

Jordan only looked good on occasion when passing over the likes of tiny shooting guards

[Elosha]

It's not even about assist numbers LeBrons is simply a better passer. He has better court vision by far. His ability to find the ball right where the shooter wants it is a big reason why he has so much success with shooters.

Why would you want to play a player like LeBron in a system in the first place where the ball is out of his hands and he's put in a restricted role in the offense, that's just dumb

Ok fine. You can be satisfied with 3/9, missing the playoffs this year, etc. If you want to argue that somehow you posting a few highlights of LeBron proves he's inherently more skilled of a passer than Jordan, that's fine. I'll live with Jordan's results and success any day, even if - gasp - he averages fewer assists than Lebron.

[Manny98]

Ok sure. :rolleyes: See my response in bold abovve
Why can't you just admit that LeBron has superior court vision. you Jordan stans are pathetic i can't believe we're actually debating if LeBron is a better passer than Jordan when LeBron is widely considered one of the best passers ever and i even admit MJs passing is underrated and deserves more credit but this idea that he's as good as LeBron is absurd

[Elosha]

Why can't you just admit that LeBron has superior court vision.

Because I've already fully explained why I don't believe that and backed it up. I think I'm done with this thread, I'll let you all get back to your trolling unimpeded. :rolleyes:

[PP34Deuce]

Jordan is a great passer....

Lebron is a better passer and considered in the bird and magic tier

[SpaceJam2]

Jordan is a great passer....

Lebron is a better passer and considered in the bird and magic tier

Tier 1 IQ poster at it again :applause:

[Manny98]

Because I've already fully explained why I don't believe that and backed it up. I think I'm done with this thread, I'll let you all get back to your trolling unimpeded. :rolleyes:
You ain't backed shit up your a ****ing clown all you said is LeBron has more assists because he's a more "willing" passer and some other bs with zero evidence to back it up

[Elosha]

You ain't backed shit up your a ****ing clown all you said is LeBron has more assists because he's a more "willing" passer and some other bs with zero evidence to back it up

Careful, you're going to wet your diaper again. Temper tantrums and little kids don't mix well.

[andgar923]

Court vision?

So why does Bron hold the ball for half the shot clock before he does anything?

That's not a sign of high IQ or court vision. All the highlight clips in the world can't prove he has greater court vision. But I can show entire game highlights of him holding the ball for half the shot clock before he makes a decision. This is over and over and over and over and over.

The amount of time he holds the ball over the amount of highlights is far superior.

Compare that to MJ's time of possession and it's a different world. MJ doesn't take long to hold the ball, he makes decisions instantly on a more consistent basis.

[Manny98]

Jordan is a great passer....

Lebron is a better passer and considered in the bird and magic tier
Correct this is what most non-stan posters would say

But no according to Jordan stans like Elosha and andgar he's a god who is perfect at everything and has no flaws :rolleyes:

[Manny98]

Court vision?

So why does Bron hold the ball for half the shot clock before he does anything?

That's not a sign of high IQ or court vision. All the highlight clips in the world can't prove he has greater court vision. But I can show entire game highlights of him holding the ball for half the shot clock before he makes a decision. This is over and over and over and over and over.

The amount of time he holds the ball over the amount of highlights is far superior.

Compare that to MJ's time of possession and it's a different world. MJ doesn't take long to hold the ball, he makes decisions instantly on a more consistent basis.
LeBron ranks outside of the top 50 in average seconds per touch and is never at the top in time of possession in the league

Another bs myth made up by Jordans stans to make LeBron look bad by acting as if hes the most ball dominant player in NBA history when its totally not true

[SpaceJam2]

You ain't backed shit up your a ****ing clown all you said is LeBron has more assists because he's a more "willing" passer and some other bs with zero evidence to back it up

And when I mentioned assist-to-turnover ratio he randomly added this another stat to back up his claim and dismiss assist-to-turnover ratio. Obviously total assists and per game stuff LeBron completely destroys MJ. So that is already strike 1 against MJ.

So then if we look at assist to turnover ratio for regular season and playoffs we find

https://i.postimg.cc/dtxCbRZN/a2toratio.png

Reg season, strike 2
Playoffs, strike 3

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron passes more
Lebron has the ball more

That does not = 'better' passer
So by this line of thinking I suppose it's fair to say the following:

Jordan shoots more
He sports the highest usage of the 2

That does not = "better" scorer

See how absolutely ridiculous that sounds?


MJ is a better 'creator' and has a better sense of the game than Bron will ever have. I would wholeheartedly agree with you if that statement said "shot creator". Other than that you're just supplying more fanboy service than necessary.


Most of Bron's assists come from drive and kick, something that most of today's players do (see Harden, Westbrook) and isn't necessarily the sign of a great passer (just one aspect).

MJ was able to create by attacking the defence, getting them off balance and finding gaps where there were none.

More importantly, he puts his teammates in position to get high efficient field goals. F*ck I can go out there and just throw to a 3pt shooter all day and will eventually rack up assists. But setting up your teammates for easier high percentage shots is harder to do.

Not saying that Bron does not do this, just not enough compared to MJ
Not saying that MJ didn't do drive and kick, just wasn't his main source of dishing out.

Bron is indeed one of the best passers of all time, but MJ gets highly underrated for his passing and is the better passer.
Lebron's capable of tons of passes on the regular Mj hasn't even done similar to. He's a whole tier above Mj as a passer at bare minimum. Volume. Style. Skill. Career numbers. It's actually one of the few things he can have over Mike that's a non discussion. Quit embarrassing yourself.:coleman:

[3ball]

Lebron's capable of tons of passes on the regular Mj hasn't even done similar to. He's a whole tier above Mj as a passer at bare minimum. Volume. Style. Skill. Career numbers. It's actually one of the few things he can have over Mike that's a non discussion. Quit embarrassing yourself.:coleman:


Post a Lebron pass (youtube link or gif) that you think MJ couldn't do

I will post a gif of MJ doing that pass

(And if you don't post anything, just understand that bird/MJ are better passers than lebron because they weren't aided by spacing, didn't dominate the ball to make passes, and their passes were part of high brand of ball & high team assists that excelled on the championship level)

[sdot_thadon]

Post a Lebron pass (youtube link or gif) that you think MJ couldn't do

I will post a gif of MJ doing that pass

(And if you don't post anything, just understand that bird/MJ are better passers than lebron because they weren't aided by spacing, didn't dominate the ball to make passes, and their passes were part of high brand of ball & high team assists that excelled on the championship level)
Poor 3ball, all you need to do is go to page 4 of this thread and start there. I myself won't have this debate I've already had with you. It's played out but here's how it will go for anyone else willing to embarrass you here:

1) 3ball asks for proof of passes Lebron does Mj didn't
2) Posters will flood thread with said passes.
3) 3ball will respond with a few that Mj has done but unfortunately it won't even cover half of what's presented and he'll argue they somehow do.
4) Once he sees how in over his head he is the goalposts will start moving like a ****ing earthquake at the world cup. We'll hear all kinds of shit like time of possession, team assist numbers and other similar bullshit to avoid the imminent truth.
5) Go start 2 to 5 save face threads depending on how triggered this one makes him.

Prove me wrong with some semblance of honest conversation please.

[SpaceJam2]

Poor 3ball, all you need to do is go to page 4 of this thread and start there. I myself won't have this debate I've already had with you. It's played out but here's how it will go for anyone else willing to embarrass you here:

1) 3ball asks for proof of passes Lebron does Mj didn't
2) Posters will flood thread with said passes.
3) 3ball will respond with a few that Mj has done but unfortunately it won't even cover half of what's presented and he'll argue they somehow do.
4) Once he sees how in over his head he is the goalposts will start moving like a ****ing earthquake at the world cup. We'll hear all kinds of shit like time of possession, team assist numbers and other similar bullshit to avoid the imminent truth.
5) Go start 2 to 5 save face threads depending on how triggered this one makes him.

Prove me wrong with some semblance of honest conversation please.

And then show him this, too:

https://i.postimg.cc/dtxCbRZN/a2toratio.png

[SpaceJam2]

And when I mentioned assist-to-turnover ratio he randomly added this another stat to back up his claim and dismiss assist-to-turnover ratio. Obviously total assists and per game stuff LeBron completely destroys MJ. So that is already strike 1 against MJ.

So then if we look at assist to turnover ratio for regular season and playoffs we find

https://i.postimg.cc/dtxCbRZN/a2toratio.png

Reg season, strike 2
Playoffs, strike 3

Yikes

Never even knew this was a debate but here ya go once again everybody

[sdot_thadon]

And then show him this, too:

https://i.postimg.cc/dtxCbRZN/a2toratio.png
yuck:oldlol: There's no way 3ball will even acknowledge this post.

[SpaceJam2]

yuck:oldlol: There's no way 3ball will even acknowledge this post.

He's quietly making his exit as we speak but at least he has admitted defeated (for once in his dang life)!

[3ball]

yuck:oldlol: There's no way 3ball will even acknowledge this post.
What is there to acknowledge

Lebron's assist/turnover ratio is 0.08 higher

Despite getting 1.20 - 1.60 more assists per game

MJ wins again.. :confusedshrug:

And when we consider that MJ wasn't aided by spacing, didn't dominate the ball to make passes, and his passing game was part of the best brand of ball/high team assists that excelled on the championship level - it's no contest.. MJ passed at a level that was more optimal for winning

I'll go check out page 4 to see if there's any passes posted.. it has to be single passes/highlights, not a whole video of passes
.

[3ball]

It's not even about assist numbers LeBrons is simply a better passer. He has better court vision by far. His ability to find the ball right where the shooter wants it is a big reason why he has so much success with shooters.

Why would you want to play a player like LeBron in a system in the first place where the ball is out of his hands and he's put in a restricted role in the offense, that's just dumb
Ball movement has always gotten role players better looks than 1 player dominating the ball in the half court

That's why it's better for lebron to play in a system - teammates would get better looks and the offense would be more dangerous by moving the ball than lebron's ball-dominance

Unfortunately, Lebron is only dominant on-ball, and doesn't have the skill to play off-ball and in a system - that's the whole problem, and that's why he's 3/9 - he loses to teams that run the systems that he can't

[paksat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS_sFID7S4Q&t=446s

[sdot_thadon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS_sFID7S4Q&t=446s
So what I'd like to know is did you even watch this entire clip before using it as evidence in this particular thread? Nothing in that clip suggests he's a better passer than Lebron, hell honestly it doesn't even do justice to his actual passing ability as he's done much better than that. Pretty much all basic chest passes (aside from the nice one hander from the three point line), or Mj's specialty of passing out of shot attempts.

I want to put some flesh on the topic before i ask an important question about Mj's impromptu passes. First of all it's his best passing attribute, he's fundamentally sound on other aspects of passing but this is the one niche where he stands out as a passer. It's a great tool for a guy who shoots a ton to have although it goes against common basketball wisdom. One of the main things we're taught young is don't go in the air to pass, well he doesn't. He goes up with intent of shooting and passes when there's nowhere else to go.

The question i pose is how are these dump offs not considered bailout passes in the same vein you guys call Lebron drive and kicks?

The only real difference is the area of the court the passes end up. One is a dump off to avoid a missed/wild/blocked attempt, while the other is basically the same but to a shooter instead. Perhaps one is a emergency last second escape and the other is sized up before the drive most times. But other than that same class of play correct?

[brooks_thompson]

Skipped the thread, the answer is no, he just uses good hangtime once he gets in the lane and naturally knows how to read the defense after so many years of playing the same way, so he can kick it out at the last millisecond. I honestly can't remember him ever making a thrilling pass a la Ginobili or Jokic. Not trying to hate, either.

[Manny98]

Skipped the thread, the answer is no, he just uses good hangtime once he gets in the lane and naturally knows how to read the defense after so many years of playing the same way, so he can kick it out at the last millisecond. I honestly can't remember him ever making a thrilling pass a la Ginobili or Jokic. Not trying to hate, either.
Yeah man we get it, Jordan was a better passer than LeBron, a better shooter than Curry, a better defender than Pippen, had better handles than Chris Paul and had a higher IQ than absolutely everyone

Jordan was the perfect specimen he was the best at absolutely everything :rolleyes:

[brooks_thompson]

Yeah man we get it, Jordan was a better passer than LeBron, a better shooter than Curry, a better defender than Pippen, had better handles than Chris Paul and had a higher IQ than absolutely everyone

Jordan was the perfect specimen he was the best at absolutely everything :rolleyes:

I didn't even say or imply any of that stuff. I was a little off-topic actually, because I was trying to think of a great Lebron pass compared to players like Ginobili and Jokic, wasn't even thinking about the Jordan comparison.

[PP34Deuce]

Ginobilli had some great passes! Jokic reminds me of Vlade/Sabonis with his passing.

This thread is so dumb that I feel like high jacking it with a list of other great passers.

Unsung passers

Chris Webber
Brevin Knight
Jamaal Tinsley
Jason williams
Mark Jackson
Scott Skiles
Bill Walton

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

.
MJ has more assists when you include "hockey" assists (ball movement), which LeStatPad avoids:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-21-2015/BoJwNo.gif



Shovel pass with left hand


https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-28-2019/ctPxav.gif



No easy drive-and-kick for threes like Lebron


https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-28-2019/l2qC1L.gif



No-spacing and thread needle assists that are tougher than Lebron's wide open spacing


https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-28-2019/NXgNxa.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-28-2019/E5tRUg.gif



Best passing video for Jordan:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0jbrTZaz0aY



Btw, we know MJ was the better passer despite the career stats because he had better stats when he played PG for 24 games in 89' (30/9/11 and 10 triple-doubles in 11 games)

He also averaged 11.4 apg in the 91' Finals without playing PG (the only player to average 10+ without bringing ball up court/PG)
.

[SpaceJam2]

His assist to turnover ratios are worse in regular season and playoffs

He has less assists "per game" as you say is so much more important

So now what?

APG
LBJ, Peak = 9.1; Career = 7.2
MJ, Peak = 8.0; Career = 5.3

:hammertime: :hammertime:

Now head over to the "top 5 worst most unefficient scorer FG%" thread you have more work to do. Chop chop!

[3ball]

His assist to turnover ratios are worse in regular season and playoffs

He has less assists "per game" as you say is so much more important

So now what?

APG
LBJ, Peak = 9.1; Career = 7.2
MJ, Peak = 8.0; Career = 5.3

:hammertime: :hammertime:

Now head over to the "top 5 worst most unefficient scorer FG%" thread you have more work to do. Chop chop!
For all the dents you try to assign to Jordan's career, lebron has far more, and worse blemishes

You point out things like the FG%, when Lebron shot worse in the 15' Finals and has far more and worse negatives than MJ

He was horrible in the 2013 Finals thru 6 games (16 on 39% thru 3 games, and 23 on 43 thru 6) - and needed Ray Allen to force game 7 - and lebron was a net negative for the series - that's much worse than any of MJ's Finals, or anything in his career

And he made the 2014 Finals by averaging only 22/6/5

So he won with shittier performance than MJ ever did..so your posts are meaningless - Lebron's lows are much lower than Jordan's

[SpaceJam2]

For all the dents you try to assign to Jordan's career, lebron has far more, and worse blemishes

You point out things like the FG%, when Lebron shot worse in the 15' Finals and has far more and worse negatives than MJ

He was horrible in the 2013 Finals thru 6 games (16 on 39% thru 3 games, and 23 on 43 thru 6) - and needed Ray Allen to force game 7 - and lebron was a net negative for the series - that's much worse than any of MJ's Finals, or anything in his career

And he made the 2014 Finals by averaging only 22/6/5

So he won with shittier performance than MJ ever did..so your posts are meaningless - Lebron's lows are much lower than Jordan's

We are talking about passing and now you mentioning FG% . I'll repost the thread title because you seem a little lost:

Is LeBron really a better passer than mj?

[LeCola]

His assist to turnover ratios are worse in regular season and playoffs

He has less assists "per game" as you say is so much more important

So now what?

APG
LBJ, Peak = 9.1; Career = 7.2
MJ, Peak = 8.0; Career = 5.3

:hammertime: :hammertime:

Now head over to the "top 5 worst most unefficient scorer FG%" thread you have more work to do. Chop chop!

Draymond Green: 7.2 (last for years)

[3ball]

We are talking about passing and now you mentioning FG% . I'll repost the thread title because you seem a little lost:

Is LeBron really a better passer than mj?
You must've missed the post at the top of this page, which clearly answers your question in the negative

[PP34Deuce]

Draymond and igoudala are very good passers.