Kblaze8855
03-23-2019, 09:31 AM
Its an old argument I think there is a good Pat Riley quote to explain....
Some reporter asked him about Nique and Worthy who were often compared in the 80s. The Lakers drafted Worthy #1 and the Hawks got Nique #3 with Terry Cummings between. Anyway they always got compared and Riley was picking Worthy(as he had to). Someone mentioned that Nique was leading the NBA in scoring and Riley said
"He misses more shots in a season than James even takes".
Which...wasnt far from true.
Nique had 2 seasons missing 13 shots a game....James in 1985(around the time it was asked) took 13 shots a game. He later took more but Rileys point still kinda stands.
How do you account for that?
The obvious answer is "Eye test" but even the people who talk that up(rightfully id like to add) usually seem unwilling to put scoring ability and actual points scored in different places.
Worthy had 2 games in his career taking 28 shots. The first two games of the season Magic had retired. So he never had big totals. But nobody who saw him questioned his ability. James Worthy was a complete scorer. Spot up after getting open off the ball. Elite post game. All time great fast break player. Elite face up player. He had 3 point range if he felt like using it. Could use either hand. Could give him the ball and get out of the way or let him Klay Thompson it and have 30 on 15/18 shooting with 6-7 dribbles. This is James in the finals vs the Bad Boys....Magic out for the series...Kareem is 42 and playing his final 20 minutes.
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He did more(scored 40 on 17-26 shooting) but I think thats plenty to make the point.
How do you judge a guy as a scorer when he was on too good a team to require him to score a lot? Or when he simply did not play selfish ball? Even when Magic and Kareem were gone....he had 14 assists the first game with the Lakers as his team. He got hurt...played like half of that season. Retired shortly having gone back to being a 6th man.
Guy just didnt often attempt to pour it on. How do we honestly compare his numbers to someone who might shoot 40 times?
Not the my issue is really Nique vs Worthy....they are just the comparison that first came to mind. We legit have stars who shoot twice as much as others...when both are scorers. Not like....some guy shooting twice as much as Ben Wallace.
We have watched Harden have all these explosions....which take obvious talent. He took 39 and 38 shots the last two games. Reggie Millers career high was 29 and he had 57 points. Harden might take more threes this season than Reggie Miller took shots one year(he played 81 games too). Harden misses 13.9 shots a game. Reggie took less shots a game than Harden misses 7 times from 88 to 2000. Barkley had 3 all star seasons like that. Many many maaaaany more legends can say the same but we dont need to go down a list. And its not as simple as him taking twice the shots means he should score twice as much.
For example....
Dwight in 2011 took 13 shots a game for 23 points. He scored 7ppg of that at the line. Lets be clear....im not saying that if Dwight took the shots Harden does hed average 40ppg. There are many factors. 3s being a major one of course.
Plus you have to consider the skill it takes to get 40 looks in an NBA game so it isnt as simple as "If everyone took 25 shots everyone scores 30+".
But I feel the situation forces you to look a little deeper.
Jordan...Kobe....I dont believe they really peaked skills/athletic ability wise when their PPG did. Kobe was closer but his polish was off the charts around 08 and 09...and he was still athletic. Jordan was a better scorer in the 90s than the mid/late 80s and I feel thats pretty clear to people who watched him. Harden...Tmac...feels like they actually hit their skills/physical ability peak together when they had their best years. Im not sure Harden from 3 years ago does this if he simply took 25-30 shots a game.
So it varies case to case. Sometimes its coaching too like Harden getting Dantoni or Hakeem getting Rudy T instead of Don Chaney who had him taking like 15-16 shots a game before Rudy told him to attack all game. You have Phil who had Jordan change his style a bit but eventually let him cut loose a little more. You can go all the way back to Tex Winter asking Elvin Hayes to pass(and being told no...and that it was like asking Babe Ruth to bunt) or Wilt who gets clowned for not scoring when he took 7 shots a game as opposed to when hed take 40.
Obviously guys who shoot less arent just automatically worse at scoring. No doubt Wilt could have had way more of those 66 points on 28-35 or whatever shooting games he would have when someone said he couldnt score anymore on the Lakers. Of course Kobe could have had more 06 and 07 style games in other years if he just took 35-40 shots more often.
But we just cannot get ourselves off PPG.
It takes a close look...and we all know most people dont look all that close.
Im wondering how close you look.
When Barkley scores 28 a game on 16 shots and Melo does 28 on 22...or Worthy takes less shots than Nique misses....or Harden takes more threes than HOF 2 guards take shots period in some years...
Manu in what many consider his best season(05)....took 10.5 shots a game. So...he only scored 16 a game. How do you even discuss him as a player vs Harden with such a discrepancy in freedom to showcase your ability? Or maybe he is free....and chooses to let others do more? How do you factor in AI taking 27 shots a game vs Vince Carter taking 20?
What do you do in these situations?
The guy scoring more usually isnt doing it out of just...selfishness. Usually out of need. But does one prove to be better because hes in position to need to showcase the full range of his ability?
If the Heat sent Wade for Shaq instead of Odom...and Kobe/Wade played together in the mid 2000s......is Kobe worse because hed never need to have all those 06 and 07 explosions? Of course not.
But a lot of people would have seen him as less impressive...just as the Rockets having say....Bradley Beal right now? Harden scores a lot less....isnt worse...but scores less. Less people would be blown away by him because his totals wouldnt beat you over the head.
How do you account for explosions from players called on to explode when you compare them to players who have no reason or chance to play that way?
Some reporter asked him about Nique and Worthy who were often compared in the 80s. The Lakers drafted Worthy #1 and the Hawks got Nique #3 with Terry Cummings between. Anyway they always got compared and Riley was picking Worthy(as he had to). Someone mentioned that Nique was leading the NBA in scoring and Riley said
"He misses more shots in a season than James even takes".
Which...wasnt far from true.
Nique had 2 seasons missing 13 shots a game....James in 1985(around the time it was asked) took 13 shots a game. He later took more but Rileys point still kinda stands.
How do you account for that?
The obvious answer is "Eye test" but even the people who talk that up(rightfully id like to add) usually seem unwilling to put scoring ability and actual points scored in different places.
Worthy had 2 games in his career taking 28 shots. The first two games of the season Magic had retired. So he never had big totals. But nobody who saw him questioned his ability. James Worthy was a complete scorer. Spot up after getting open off the ball. Elite post game. All time great fast break player. Elite face up player. He had 3 point range if he felt like using it. Could use either hand. Could give him the ball and get out of the way or let him Klay Thompson it and have 30 on 15/18 shooting with 6-7 dribbles. This is James in the finals vs the Bad Boys....Magic out for the series...Kareem is 42 and playing his final 20 minutes.
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AlarmedFittingCaudata-size_restricted.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SimplisticGleamingAiredale-size_restricted.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SecondPlushCaterpillar-size_restricted.gif
He did more(scored 40 on 17-26 shooting) but I think thats plenty to make the point.
How do you judge a guy as a scorer when he was on too good a team to require him to score a lot? Or when he simply did not play selfish ball? Even when Magic and Kareem were gone....he had 14 assists the first game with the Lakers as his team. He got hurt...played like half of that season. Retired shortly having gone back to being a 6th man.
Guy just didnt often attempt to pour it on. How do we honestly compare his numbers to someone who might shoot 40 times?
Not the my issue is really Nique vs Worthy....they are just the comparison that first came to mind. We legit have stars who shoot twice as much as others...when both are scorers. Not like....some guy shooting twice as much as Ben Wallace.
We have watched Harden have all these explosions....which take obvious talent. He took 39 and 38 shots the last two games. Reggie Millers career high was 29 and he had 57 points. Harden might take more threes this season than Reggie Miller took shots one year(he played 81 games too). Harden misses 13.9 shots a game. Reggie took less shots a game than Harden misses 7 times from 88 to 2000. Barkley had 3 all star seasons like that. Many many maaaaany more legends can say the same but we dont need to go down a list. And its not as simple as him taking twice the shots means he should score twice as much.
For example....
Dwight in 2011 took 13 shots a game for 23 points. He scored 7ppg of that at the line. Lets be clear....im not saying that if Dwight took the shots Harden does hed average 40ppg. There are many factors. 3s being a major one of course.
Plus you have to consider the skill it takes to get 40 looks in an NBA game so it isnt as simple as "If everyone took 25 shots everyone scores 30+".
But I feel the situation forces you to look a little deeper.
Jordan...Kobe....I dont believe they really peaked skills/athletic ability wise when their PPG did. Kobe was closer but his polish was off the charts around 08 and 09...and he was still athletic. Jordan was a better scorer in the 90s than the mid/late 80s and I feel thats pretty clear to people who watched him. Harden...Tmac...feels like they actually hit their skills/physical ability peak together when they had their best years. Im not sure Harden from 3 years ago does this if he simply took 25-30 shots a game.
So it varies case to case. Sometimes its coaching too like Harden getting Dantoni or Hakeem getting Rudy T instead of Don Chaney who had him taking like 15-16 shots a game before Rudy told him to attack all game. You have Phil who had Jordan change his style a bit but eventually let him cut loose a little more. You can go all the way back to Tex Winter asking Elvin Hayes to pass(and being told no...and that it was like asking Babe Ruth to bunt) or Wilt who gets clowned for not scoring when he took 7 shots a game as opposed to when hed take 40.
Obviously guys who shoot less arent just automatically worse at scoring. No doubt Wilt could have had way more of those 66 points on 28-35 or whatever shooting games he would have when someone said he couldnt score anymore on the Lakers. Of course Kobe could have had more 06 and 07 style games in other years if he just took 35-40 shots more often.
But we just cannot get ourselves off PPG.
It takes a close look...and we all know most people dont look all that close.
Im wondering how close you look.
When Barkley scores 28 a game on 16 shots and Melo does 28 on 22...or Worthy takes less shots than Nique misses....or Harden takes more threes than HOF 2 guards take shots period in some years...
Manu in what many consider his best season(05)....took 10.5 shots a game. So...he only scored 16 a game. How do you even discuss him as a player vs Harden with such a discrepancy in freedom to showcase your ability? Or maybe he is free....and chooses to let others do more? How do you factor in AI taking 27 shots a game vs Vince Carter taking 20?
What do you do in these situations?
The guy scoring more usually isnt doing it out of just...selfishness. Usually out of need. But does one prove to be better because hes in position to need to showcase the full range of his ability?
If the Heat sent Wade for Shaq instead of Odom...and Kobe/Wade played together in the mid 2000s......is Kobe worse because hed never need to have all those 06 and 07 explosions? Of course not.
But a lot of people would have seen him as less impressive...just as the Rockets having say....Bradley Beal right now? Harden scores a lot less....isnt worse...but scores less. Less people would be blown away by him because his totals wouldnt beat you over the head.
How do you account for explosions from players called on to explode when you compare them to players who have no reason or chance to play that way?