Peak for peak, LBJ vs MJ

[TheCorporation]

Best season vs best season


LBJ in 2013
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 101
WS: 19.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 44.2



MJ in 1991
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 102
WS: 20.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 42.3

Now all bullshit aside, this is a pretty epic peak for peak season versus season. No agenda, no hate. Just pure appreciation for both legends :applause: :applause:


I mean shit, they are literally nearly identical in every advanced analytical (which yes, accounts for pace). Simply astonishing.

Again, no hate, just love.

[jstern]

Does it account for the perimeter friendly rules, and the getting stats at the expense of your teammates stats? (Lebron ball)

[3ball]

Best season vs best season


LBJ in 2013
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 101
WS: 19.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 44.2



MJ in 1991
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 102
WS: 20.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 42.3

Now all bullshit aside, this is a pretty epic peak for peak season versus season. No agenda, no hate. Just pure appreciation for both legends :applause: :applause:


I mean shit, they are literally nearly identical in every advanced analytical (which yes, accounts for pace). Simply astonishing.

Again, no hate, just love.
PER?

WS/48

PPG?

PLAYOFF STATS?

FINALS STATS?


post the their playoff PER's and Finals stats

I guess I'll have to do it.. sit tight

[LAmbruh]

Crazy how much more superior Lebron's peak and longevity was despite

- no illegal defense
- little tykes 3pt line
- Hornacek/Ehlo milkmen competition


surprised they didn't shrink the size of the ball for 90's players also, they did everything else

[Dray n Klay]

PER?

WS/48

PPG?

PLAYOFF STATS?

FINALS STATS?


post the their playoff PER's and Finals stats

I guess I'll have to do it.. sit tight


12 rebounds and 10 assists is better than 4 rebounds and 2 assists

[TheCorporation]

PER?

WS/48

PPG?

PLAYOFF STATS?

FINALS STATS?


post the their playoff PER's and Finals stats

I guess I'll have to do it.. sit tight

Was this really your first thought? Sheesh man...

[Duncan21formvp]

MJ was far superior. Lebron has been down in a series every year of his career he has made the playoffs at least 3-2 including 5 years in a row with HCA and losing 3 series with HCA including to Dwight Howard (let that sink in). If peak was good you wouldn't be losing to Dwight Howard with HCA.

[egokiller]

Nothing LeBron did relative to MJ matters. He plays in a league with no hand checking. What's sad is that even with no hand checking, he still failed 6 times in the finals. :roll:

[TheCorporation]

PER?

WS/48

PPG?

PLAYOFF STATS?

FINALS STATS?


post the their playoff PER's and Finals stats

I guess I'll have to do it.. sit tight

Found a bit more

LBJ
Double-Doubles = 36
Triple-Doubles = 4
A/TO ratio: 2.4
PER: 31.6



MJ
Double-Doubles = 4
Triple-Doubles = 0
A/TO ratio: 2.2
PER: 31.6

Their PERS are identical. Insane. James has a ton more double-doubles, though.

[Duncan21formvp]

Found a bit more

LBJ
Double-Doubles = 36
Triple-Doubles = 4
A/TO ratio: 2.4
PER: 31.6



MJ
Double-Doubles = 4
Triple-Doubles = 0
A/TO ratio: 2.2
PER: 31.6

Their PERS are identical. Insane. James has a ton more double-doubles, though.


Also been down every year of his career 3-2 in a series including 5 years in a row with HCA and losing 3 years in a row with HCA including to Dwight Howard. MJ was 14-0 vs 50+ win teams with HCA and 24-0 overall with 6 finals mvp's.

Lebron had to switch teams in order to win and join forces with a proven champion who won finals mvp as the man.

[TheCorporation]

Crazy how much more superior Lebron's peak and longevity was despite

- no illegal defense
- little tykes 3pt line
- Hornacek/Ehlo milkmen competition


surprised they didn't shrink the size of the ball for 90's players also, they did everything else

This is the part that gets me the most! LeBron played in the toughest perimeter defensive era in NBA history

Routinely facing Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Tony Allen, Kawhi Leonard
Well, we know who Jordan faced :(

[TheCorporation]

12 rebounds and 10 assists is better than 4 rebounds and 2 assists

Without a doubt. MJ goes no where without Pippen. At least LBJ made a Finals with Boobie Gibson. Give him Pippen and MJ is just a taller Allen Iverson. :confusedshrug:

[egokiller]

This is the part that gets me the most! LeBron played in the toughest perimeter defensive era in NBA history

Routinely facing Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Tony Allen, Kawhi Leonard
Well, we know who Jordan faced :(

Nothing LeBron did relative to MJ matters. He plays in a league with no hand checking. A D-league player that can hand check MJ is > defense that anything LeBron faced.

[TheCorporation]

Nothing LeBron did relative to MJ matters. He plays in a league with no hand checking. A D-league player that can hand check MJ is > defense that anything LeBron faced.

Auto mechanics and grocery baggers were 'skilled" enough to play in your era bro bro

5'3 125 pound Mugsy Bouges could handle the tough hand checking, but not 6'8 260 pound LeBron amirite? :roll: :roll:

[Duncan21formvp]

Without a doubt. MJ goes no where without Pippen. At least LBJ made a Finals with Boobie Gibson. Give him Pippen and MJ is just a taller Allen Iverson. :confusedshrug:
Then why was Pippen never a superstar before playing with MJ? Why was he coming off the bench?

Dwyane Wade actually won a title as the man before Lebron came. Ben Wallace was the only allstar on a team that won it all before playing with Lebron. Shaq won 3 finals mvp's and a league mvp before every playing with Lebron.

[72-10]

I've addressed this before - LeBron's career peak PER has never reached 28. Jordan's career peak PER was over 30.

[3ball]

Best season vs best season


LBJ in 2013
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 101
WS: 19.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 44.2



MJ in 1991
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 102
WS: 20.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 42.3


they are literally nearly identical



MJ destroyed Lebron in the playoffs and Finals


Playoffs

Jordan 91':. 31.1 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg
Lebron 13':. 25.9 ppg.. 8.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 3.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.8 bpg

Jordan 91':. 127 ortg.. 60.0 ts.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 ws/48.. 13.8 bpm
Lebron 13':. 118 ortg.. 58.5 ts.. 28.1 PER.. 0.260 ws/48.. 10.8 bpm


Finals

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc
Lebron 13':. 25.3 ppg.. 10.9 rpg.... 7.0 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 113 ortg.. 52.9 ts.. 22.5 GmSc
.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I've addressed this before - LeBron's career peak PER has never reached 28. Jordan's career peak PER was over 30.
Well yea Jordan > LeBron. The case has been closed.

[And1AllDay]

Auto mechanics and grocery baggers were 'skilled" enough to play in your era bro bro

5'3 125 pound Mugsy Bouges could handle the tough hand checking, but not 6'8 260 pound LeBron amirite? :roll: :roll:

:eek:

3baLLLL avoiding this like '91 Magic AIDS

[3ball]

:eek:

3baLLLL avoiding this like '91 Magic AIDS
MJ destroyed Lebron in the playoffs and Finals


Playoffs

Jordan 91':. 31.1 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg
Lebron 13':. 25.9 ppg.. 8.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 3.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.8 bpg

Jordan 91':. 127 ortg.. 60.0 ts.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 ws/48.. 13.8 bpm
Lebron 13':. 118 ortg.. 58.5 ts.. 28.1 PER.. 0.260 ws/48.. 10.8 bpm


Finals

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc
Lebron 13':. 25.3 ppg.. 10.9 rpg.... 7.0 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 113 ortg.. 52.9 ts.. 22.5 GmSc


:dancin:.. it's not even close.. :dancin:

[Mr Feeny]

This is a trick question. I rank Jason Terry ahead of LeBron.
When LeBron passes his daddy Jason Terry, then he enters the top 250 conversation.

[And1AllDay]

MJ destroyed Lebron in the playoffs and Finals


Playoffs

Jordan 91':. 31.1 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg
Lebron 13':. 25.9 ppg.. 8.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 3.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.8 bpg

Jordan 91':. 127 ortg.. 60.0 ts.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 ws/48.. 13.8 bpm
Lebron 13':. 118 ortg.. 58.5 ts.. 28.1 PER.. 0.260 ws/48.. 10.8 bpm


Finals

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc
Lebron 13':. 25.3 ppg.. 10.9 rpg.... 7.0 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 113 ortg.. 52.9 ts.. 22.5 GmSc


:dancin:.. it's not even close.. :dancin:


But in this era?

https://i.postimg.cc/8czvy5s8/mjera.png

[eliteballer]

LeBron's career PED is definitely higher:


https://cdn.nba.net/nba-drupal-prod/styles/landscape_1045w/http/i2.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/dam/assets/130828123801-michael-jordan-iso-1998-all-star-game.video-player.jpg

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2018/05/michale-jordan.jpg

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/UkLrKr3KVvmKb9pLowD34pgjRlg=/0x0:1000x667/1200x800/filters:focal(0x0:1000x667)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/photo_images/2971465/GYI0065063672.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b6/22/c2/b622c23710df06e9d8fdffa44f475994--cleveland-cavs-king-james.jpg

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/lebron-james-of-the-cleveland-cavaliers-looks-to-pass-against-the-san-picture-id85153038

https://mk0slamonlinensgt39k.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/GettyImages-909447398.jpg

[bobopenguin]

But in this era?

https://i.postimg.cc/8czvy5s8/mjera.png

seriously, if u going to reply to urself 20 times under 10 different accounts, why not just consolidate all those 20 replies in one single post?

[TheCorporation]

Best season vs best season


LBJ in 2013
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 101
WS: 19.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 44.2



MJ in 1991
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 102
WS: 20.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 42.3



Peak for peak. Best season versus best season.

[Elosha]

Without a doubt. MJ goes no where without Pippen. At least LBJ made a Finals with Boobie Gibson. Give him Pippen and MJ is just a taller Allen Iverson. :confusedshrug:

Why do you guys keep raising these points about Pippen "rescuing" Jordan from the first round, when it's so easy to disprove? Do you really think if you just repeat BS like a parrot it magically becomes true? That's not how reality works.

Pippen wasn't even a blip on anyone's radar as a coming superstar in 1988, when Jordan almost singlehandedly led the Bulls into the Easterns Semis in 1987 and into the ECSF in 89 and 90. Jordan's first playoff series win was in 1988 against Cleveland. He averaged 45, 5, and 5, 3 steals and 1.6 blocks in the five game series. Pippen averaged 10.6 ppg and 5 rebounds. But yes, it was Pippen who "led" Jordan into the second round. Here are the actual stats, which no stupid trolling can refute.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...-vs-bulls.html

Then Pippen averaged a whole 9.4 ppg when the Bulls lost to Piston in the next round. Jordan had a relatively poor (by his standards) series averaging 27.5 ppg, as the Pistons began implementing their strategy of swarming and hitting Jordan repeatedly and ignoring the rest of the Bulls, who they regarded as inferior talents and not mentally strong.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...s-pistons.html

In the next year, 1988-89 season, Jordan averaged 40, 6 and 8 on 52% shooting in the first round and hit The Shot, winning the entire series, against heavily favored Cavs. Pippen averaged 15, 9 and 4 on 39% shooting. But yes, it was Pippen who carried Jordan and taught him how to win.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...cavaliers.html

In the next round of 1989, the Bulls beat the favored Knicks, with Jordan averaging 36, 8 and 10 on 55% shooting. Pippen averaged 15, 7 and 4 on 58% shooting. Do you think people were claiming Pippen was the reason Jordan could finally get past the second round? If so you're an idiot.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...vs-knicks.html

None of this is to knock Pippen who was slowly but steadily developing into an exceptional player over these formative years But there's only one primary reason why Jordan advanced and started winning big time in the playoffs and that was his own transcendent ability. Jordan still needed to learn more about teamwork and maximizing his leadership abilities. But he - no one else - was the catalyst for the Bulls' substantial playoff success in 1988, 89, and 90.

[paksat]

bla bla advanced stats this

bla bla advanced stats that

the glove PAYTON isn't even in the top 200 defensively based on their "stats"

so shut.the.fck.up about that BULLSH*T

[3ball]

Best season vs best season


LBJ in 2013
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 101
WS: 19.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 44.2



MJ in 1991
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 102
WS: 20.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 42.3

.

^^^ that's clearly a tie, except MJ beats him in raw stats handily (5 more ppg on equal offensive efficiency)

And destroys in the playoffs and Finals by a mile:


Playoffs

Jordan 91':. 31.1 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg
Lebron 13':. 25.9 ppg.. 8.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 3.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.8 bpg

Jordan 91':. 127 ortg.. 60.0 ts.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 ws/48.. 13.8 bpm
Lebron 13':. 118 ortg.. 58.5 ts.. 28.1 PER.. 0.260 ws/48.. 10.8 bpm


Finals

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc
Lebron 13':. 25.3 ppg.. 10.9 rpg.... 7.0 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 113 ortg.. 52.9 ts.. 22.5 GmSc


:dancin.. it's not even close.. :dancin

[TheCorporation]

bla bla advanced stats this

bla bla advanced stats that

the glove PAYTON isn't even in the top 200 defensively based on their "stats"

so shut.the.fck.up about that BULLSH*T

Sheesh

He wasn't that good of a defender...That's why

[TheCorporation]

^^^ that's clearly a tie, except MJ beats him in raw stats handily (5 more ppg on equal offensive efficiency)

And destroys in the playoffs and Finals by a mile:


Playoffs

Jordan 91':. 31.1 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg
Lebron 13':. 25.9 ppg.. 8.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 3.0 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 0.8 bpg

Jordan 91':. 127 ortg.. 60.0 ts.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 ws/48.. 13.8 bpm
Lebron 13':. 118 ortg.. 58.5 ts.. 28.1 PER.. 0.260 ws/48.. 10.8 bpm


Finals

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc
Lebron 13':. 25.3 ppg.. 10.9 rpg.... 7.0 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 113 ortg.. 52.9 ts.. 22.5 GmSc


:dancin.. it's not even close.. :dancin

so 2013 is LeBron's playoff peak or are you being retarded again? :lol

TRY again

[Celtics 1825]

2013 LeBron was an absolute beast. Unstoppable.

[TheCorporation]

2013 LeBron was an absolute beast. Unstoppable.

His reg season peak was literally better than the best Jordan ever had

But 3ball glosses over it :lol

[3ball]

so 2013 is LeBron's playoff peak or are you being retarded again? :lol


You're the one that compared 91' MJ to 13' Bron

I simply showed that 91' was much better due to vastly better playoff and Finals performance





TRY again


Ok


Best Winning Playoffs

JORDAN 91':. 31.1 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg
LEBRON 16':. 26.3 ppg.. 9.5 rpg.. 7.5 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg

JORDAN 91':. 32.7 usg.. 127 ortg.. 60.0 ts.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 ws/48.. 13.8 bpm
LEBRON 16':. 30.7 usg.. 118 ortg.. 58.5 ts.. 30.0 PER.. 0.274 ws/48.. 13.1 bpm


Best Winning Finals

JORDAN 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc
LEBRON 16':. 29.7 ppg.. 11.3 rpg.... 8.9 apg.. 4.4 tov.. 2.6 spg.. 2.3 bpg.. 114 ortg.. 56.2 ts.. 26.5 GmSc


Playoff stats for first 3 championships:

JORDAN 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 33.7 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
LEBRON 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 27.2 ppg.. 9.2 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER

(MJ was required to score nearly 7 more points with equal assists and efficiency.. :eek: )


Career Playoffs

JORDAN:. 33.5 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 spg.. 0.9 bpg
LEBRON:. 28.9 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.3 dreb.. 7.1 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 1.0 bpg

JORDAN:. 35.6 usg.. 118 ortg.. 56.8 ts.. 28.6 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 10.1 bpm
LEBRON:. 32.2 usg.. 116 ortg.. 57.9 ts.. 28.3 PER.. 0.244 ws/48.. 11.1 bpm



How is mj not better.. :confusedshrug:
.

[SpaceJam2]

You're the one that compared 91' MJ to 13' Bron

I simply showed that 91' was much better due to vastly better playoff and Finals performance



Ok


Best Winning Playoffs

Jordan 91':. 31.1 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg
Lebron 16':. 26.3 ppg.. 9.5 rpg.. 7.5 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg

Jordan 91':. 32.7 usg.. 127 ortg.. 60.0 ts.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 ws/48.. 13.8 bpm
Lebron 16':. 30.7 usg.. 118 ortg.. 58.5 ts.. 30.0 PER.. 0.274 ws/48.. 13.1 bpm


Best Winning Finals

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc
Lebron 16':. 29.7 ppg.. 11.3 rpg.... 8.9 apg.. 4.4 tov.. 2.6 spg.. 2.3 bpg.. 114 ortg.. 56.2 ts.. 26.5 GmSc


Playoff stats for first 3 championships:

Jordan 91, 92, 93 Playoffs:. 33.7 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.8 tov.. 57.2 ts.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Lebron 12, 13, 16 Playoffs:. 27.2 ppg.. 9.2 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 3.4 tov.. 58.1 ts.. 117 ortg.. 29.2 PER

(MJ was required to score nearly 7 more points with equal assists and efficiency.. :eek: )


Career Playoffs

Jordan:. 33.5 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 5.7 apg.. 3.1 tov.. 2.1 spg.. 0.9 bpg
Lebron:. 28.9 ppg.. 1.5 oreb.. 7.3 dreb.. 7.1 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 1.8 spg.. 1.0 bpg

Jordan:. 35.6 usg.. 118 ortg.. 56.8 ts.. 28.6 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 10.1 bpm
Lebron:. 32.2 usg.. 116 ortg.. 57.9 ts.. 28.3 PER.. 0.244 ws/48.. 11.1 bpm



How is mj not better.. :confusedshrug:
.

Post 2018...Duh

[3ball]

Post 2018...Duh
Regarding losing playoff runs:

Lebron's 2018 is equal to MJ's 1989 or 1990 statistically, but both fall well short of 2009

Lebron's upset loss as a huge +550 favorite in 2009 (shit brand of ball, stat-padding ball) had record PER and advanced stats for any losing playoff run

But MJ's 1986 set the record for raw stats, except he didn't lose as the favorite like 09' bron...

That's why I just posted their career playoff stats and then singled out their winning runs
.

[SpaceJam2]

Regarding losing playoff runs:

Lebron's 2018 is equal to MJ's 1989 or 1990 statistically, but both fall well short of 2009

Lebron's upset loss as a huge +550 favorite in 2009 (shit brand of ball, stat-padding ball) had record PER and advanced stats for any losing playoff run

But MJ's 1986 set the record for raw stats, except he didn't lose as the favorite like 09' bron...

That's why I just posted their career playoff stats and then singled out their winning runs
.

What kind of guerrilla warfare math is this? :wtf:

[3ball]

What kind of guerrilla warfare math is this? :wtf:
I posted all the stats for you to see

Any objective assessment shows MJ was better

He was better during winning runs, for his career, and he had the best raw stats of a losing run.. lebron only has advanced stats for a losing run in his favor - everything else is mj
.

[SpaceJam2]

I posted all the stats for you to see

Any objective assessment shows MJ was better

He was better during winning runs, for his career, and he had the best raw stats of a losing run.. lebron only has advanced stats for a losing run in his favor - everything else is mj
.

So just to flip the script LeBron had tougher opponents then, yes?

MJ could "win with less" while LeBron "lost with more" ?

Just playing devil's advocate here because 2004-2010 Cavs were a shitshow and you know it.

[Young X]

Lebron in 2013 was definitely close to MJ. You guys are forgetting how scary he was.

[3ball]

Lebron in 2013 was definitely close to MJ. You guys are forgetting how scary he was.
He wasn't that good in the playoffs and was bad in the Finals

His 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games, so he needed Ray Allen to force game 7..

he won those Finals being a net negative and averaging only 25 on 44%, including 16 on 39% thru 3 games (befuddled by the Spurs' "let him shoot" strategy) and the aforementioned 23 on 43 thru 6 (thus needing Ray to see a game 7)

I compared lebron's 13 run to mj' 91' run earlier itt and it doesn't compare at all - 13' and 91' are considered both players' banner year

[MrFonzworth]

Interesting question, let's take one Finals run from both players. Count how many stats said players lead BOTH Finals teams, the player with the higher number has the better peak.

[3ball]

So just to flip the script LeBron had tougher opponents then, yes?

MJ could "win with less" while LeBron "lost with more" ?

Just playing devil's advocate here because 2004-2010 Cavs were a shitshow and you know it.


Dwight Howard's Magic is great comp?

The East was shit with everyone backpacking weak casts to the Finals (AI, Kidd, Dwight, Lebron).. So lebron gets knocked for failing to backpack it in 09/10 despite being a heavy favorite both years, and ceding those carry-jobs to Dwight and an injured, 50-win Celtics team

Also, you say the Cavs were a shit show.. so what were the bulls from 85-90?.. lebron was putting up WORSE stats than 80's MJ, but winning way more.. i.e. Lebron's 28/8/7 yielded 66 wins and 1 seed, while mj's 33/8/8 yielded 47 and 6 seed... MJ's 6 seed executes upsets in every round and takes the champs 6 games, while lebron gets upset by a tranny

You can't make this shit up.. you guys just don't realize how weak mj's cast was and how tough his comp was... 35/6/6/dpoy yielded 50 wins in 88', while 28/8/7 gets lebron 66 and favorite to win the Finals.. 37/5/5 yielded 42 wins in 87'... MJ's 80's casts were worse than any cast lebron ever had..

Heck, lebron entered the league with a 2-time all-star center on his team and a 14/10 pf... then he added a 1st team all-nba defender and a great defensive coach to help him make that run in 07 (where his playoff stats were dogshit)... Then he adds an all-nba defender (varejao), another all-star (mo), Shaq (all-star MVP in 09' and 4th option for Bron in 10:), and 2-time all-star Jamison.. otoh, MJ's teams had ZERO ACCOLADES until 90'... Let that sink in.. he had worse casts and needed better stats to win than bron

[SpaceJam2]

Interesting question, let's take one Finals run from both players. Count how many stats said players lead BOTH Finals teams, the player with the higher number has the better peak.

Yikes


R.I.P. MJ

Does it count for extra cherry on top if the team that was defeated previously won 73-games?

[3ball]

Count how many stats said players lead BOTH Finals teams, the player with the higher number has the better peak.



Lebron had an equal scoring partner and closer in 16'

That doesn't compare to what MJ had to do (10-20 more than 2nd option to win all Finals - so a 1-man show on offense, the team closer, and Kawhi on defense)






Let's take one Finals run from both players.


Playoffs

JORDAN 91':. 31.1 ppg.. 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg
LEBRON 16':. 26.3 ppg.. 9.5 rpg.. 7.5 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg

JORDAN 91':. 32.7 usg.. 127 ortg.. 60.0 ts.. 32.0 PER.. 0.333 ws/48.. 13.8 bpm
LEBRON 16':. 30.7 usg.. 118 ortg.. 58.5 ts.. 30.0 PER.. 0.274 ws/48.. 13.1 bpm


Finals

JORDAN 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc
LEBRON 16':. 29.7 ppg.. 11.3 rpg.... 8.9 apg.. 4.4 tov.. 2.6 spg.. 2.3 bpg.. 114 ortg.. 56.2 ts.. 26.5 GmSc



Who's stats are better Fonzworth

[SpaceJam2]

Wait, this was MJ's "best ever" which you posted:'

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc .. Usage...31.9

LeBron 18':. 33.6 ppg....12.0 rpg .. 10.0 apg.. 4.2 tov.. 1.4 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 126 ortg.. 63% ts.. 29.6 GmSc .. Usage 31.6

So wait a gosh darn minute here...LeBron decimates Jordan peak for peak in a Finals series, too?! What have you done to yourself?

'91 MJ vs '18 LBJ

LBJ leads in: points, rebounds, ORtg, TS%, GmSc, and Usage
MJ leads in: assists, steals, blocks

https://media.tenor.com/images/ce4ae98b16871e8e78d692c43625d0ab/tenor.gif

What have you just done to yourself?

[Dray n Klay]

Wait, this was MJ's "best ever" which you posted:'

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc .. Usage...31.9

LeBron 18':. 33.6 ppg....12.0 rpg .. 10.0 apg.. 4.2 tov.. 1.4 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 126 ortg.. 63% ts.. 29.6 GmSc .. Usage 31.6

So wait a gosh darn minute here...LeBron decimates Jordan peak for peak in a Finals series, too?! What have you done to yourself?

'91 MJ vs '18 LBJ

LBJ leads in: points, rebounds, ORtg, TS%, GmSc, and Usage
MJ leads in: assists, steals, blocks

https://media.tenor.com/images/ce4ae98b16871e8e78d692c43625d0ab/tenor.gif

What have you just done to yourself?

:eek:

[3ball]

Wait, this was MJ's "best ever" which you posted:'

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc .. Usage...31.9

LeBron 18':. 33.6 ppg....12.0 rpg .. 10.0 apg.. 4.2 tov.. 1.4 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 126 ortg.. 63% ts.. 29.6 GmSc .. Usage 31.6

So wait a gosh darn minute here...LeBron decimates Jordan peak for peak in a Finals series, too?! What have you done to yourself?

'91 MJ vs '18 LBJ

LBJ leads in: points, rebounds, ORtg, TS%, GmSc, and Usage
MJ leads in: assists, steals, blocks

https://media.tenor.com/images/ce4ae98b16871e8e78d692c43625d0ab/tenor.gif

What have you just done to yourself?
Lebron lost by record amount - literally the emptiest stats ever, so they can't compare to MJ's Finals where he only ever won

So if we're talking empty stats, the mj's 1986 takes the cake.. 30.6 gamescore.. 44/6/6 on 50% against the goat team

And those stats weren't that empty - mj's 8 seed played the Celtics closer than lebron's 4 seed played the Warriors (record loss)

[SpaceJam]

Wait, this was MJ's "best ever" which you posted:'

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc .. Usage...31.9

LeBron 18':. 33.6 ppg....12.0 rpg .. 10.0 apg.. 4.2 tov.. 1.4 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 126 ortg.. 63% ts.. 29.6 GmSc .. Usage 31.6

So wait a gosh darn minute here...LeBron decimates Jordan peak for peak in a Finals series, too?! What have you done to yourself?

'91 MJ vs '18 LBJ

LBJ leads in: points, rebounds, ORtg, TS%, GmSc, and Usage
MJ leads in: assists, steals, blocks

https://media.tenor.com/images/ce4ae98b16871e8e78d692c43625d0ab/tenor.gif

What have you just done to yourself?

My brother :applause:

[SpaceJam2]

Lebron lost by record amount - literally the emptiest stats ever, so they can't compare to MJ's Finals where he only ever won

So if we're talking empty stats, the mj's 1986 takes the cake.. 30.6 gamescore.. 44/6/6 on 50% against the goat team

And those stats weren't that empty - mj's 8 seed played the Celtics closer than lebron's 4 seed played the Warriors (record loss)

You made your bed now lay in it brother I had to make a thread about this thanks for bringing it to light.

[paksat]

Sheesh

He wasn't that good of a defender...That's why

further reiterating that you're 13 years old

[warriorfan]

Jason Terry

[TheCorporation]

Bumping for people who someone didn't know LBJ's peak season > MJ's

[72-10]

WOW you are retarded if you think they're close. MJ played defense despite all he was doing. Defense doesn't factor into stats well.

91 MJ had either a steal or blocked shot in every single of the 82 games (he played all 82).

LeBron's played all 82 games once in his entire career, took time off and despite that, he still has never gotten close to achieving this actually meaningful stat: http://bkref.com/tiny/F7zfr

As you can see here: http://bkref.com/tiny/w6mEY

MJ did this three fvckin times: 88-89, 89-90, 90-91

[TheCorporation]

WOW you are retarded if you think they're close. MJ played defense despite all he was doing. Defense doesn't factor into stats well.

91 MJ had either a steal or blocked shot in every single of the 82 games (he played all 82).

LeBron's played all 82 games once in his entire career, took time off and despite that, he still has never gotten close to achieving this actually meaningful stat: http://bkref.com/tiny/F7zfr

As you can see here: http://bkref.com/tiny/w6mEY

MJ did this three fvckin times: 88-89, 89-90, 90-91

And yet MJ had a higher DRtg than LBJ despite playing alongside Scottie Pippen?


Next

[bobopenguin]

Wait, this was MJ's "best ever" which you posted:'

Jordan 91':. 31.2 ppg.... 6.6 rpg.. 11.4 apg.. 3.6 tov.. 2.8 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 125 ortg.. 61.2 ts.. 29.4 GmSc .. Usage...31.9

LeBron 18':. 33.6 ppg....12.0 rpg .. 10.0 apg.. 4.2 tov.. 1.4 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 126 ortg.. 63% ts.. 29.6 GmSc .. Usage 31.6

So wait a gosh darn minute here...LeBron decimates Jordan peak for peak in a Finals series, too?! What have you done to yourself?

'91 MJ vs '18 LBJ

LBJ leads in: points, rebounds, ORtg, TS%, GmSc, and Usage
MJ leads in: assists, steals, blocks

https://media.tenor.com/images/ce4ae98b16871e8e78d692c43625d0ab/tenor.gif

What have you just done to yourself?

and '91 mj got a ring, '18 lebron got nothing.

[SpaceJam2]

and '91 mj got a ring, '18 lebron got nothing.

I wonder why

[ballinhun8]

One guy got swept and the other performed a backdoor sweep



But Stats!! yea!! wooooh! We love stats! The emptier the better.



Lbj! The Miller lite of the NBA finals!

[AintNoSunshine]

Don't know what any of those are, but cool.

My opinion from watching both of them played, MJ's the assassin and unstoppable scoring force, but nobody is the better overall basketball player than peak Bron.

[TheCorporation]

Don't know what any of those are, but cool.

My opinion from watching both of them played, MJ's the assassin and unstoppable scoring force, but nobody is the better overall basketball player than peak Bron.

Fair enough :applause:

[SamuraiSWISH]

One guy got swept and the other performed a backdoor sweep



But Stats!! yea!! wooooh! We love stats! The emptier the better.



Lbj! The Miller lite of the NBA finals!
:roll: :roll: :roll:

:applause:

[SpaceJam2]

Can we finally conclude the obvious at this point without having to rebump these threads?

Better season peak = LBJ
Better Finals peak = LBJ
Better single Finals game peak = LBJ

I could keep bumping this thread every time a noobie strolls through the forums but I feel most are aware of this by now? You can hate the info, maybe even twist it to fit an agenda, but it's all really true.

[Leviathon1121]

He is still not, and after this disastrous season, will never be the consensus GOAT, how badly does that infuriate you?

[paksat]

I wonder why

well I mean ya know.. one guy has excuses, the other has rings

one guy hand built his team, the other took what was dealt to him

one guy is goat and it's not even close, the other is a manufactured wannabe

:roll:

[TheCorporation]

He is still not, and after this disastrous season, will never be the consensus GOAT, how badly does that infuriate you?

MJ never was the goat so how/why would that infuriate me?

You're the one left explaining to others why MJ is #2 in virtually everything now. :confusedshrug:

Good luck with that :lol

[Leviathon1121]

No amount of trolling is going to change the reality that Jordan is at this moment the consensus GOAT, and that Lebron never will be.

[And1AllDay]

No amount of trolling is going to change the reality that Jordan is at this moment the consensus GOAT, and that Lebron never will be.

Mike can be second, so SGOAT maybe

He leads in nothing so how can the number two guy jump up to number one becos of your feelings?

[Leviathon1121]

Mike can be second, so SGOAT maybe

He leads in nothing so how can the number two guy jump up to number one becos of your feelings?
My feelings? This has nothing to do with any feelings whatsoever. It is simply an indisputable fact that Jordan is considered the consensus GOAT. Lebron had his shot and while still a great career, will never be the player that the majority of people feel is the GOAT, sorry. :(

[3ball]

Better season peak = LBJ



88' MJ had the better peak and it's not close:


Regular Season Peaks

JORDAN 88':. 35.0 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 5.9 apg.. 3.2 spg.. 1.6 bpg.. 60.3 ts
LEBRON 13':. 26.8 ppg.. 1.3 oreb.. 6.8 dreb.. 7.3 apg.. 1.7 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 64.0 ts

JORDAN 88':. 34.1 usg.. 123 ortg.. 31.7 PER.. 21.2 ws.. 12.2 bpm.. 11.8 vorp
LEBRON 13':. 30.2 usg.. 125 ortg.. 31.6 PER.. 19.3 ws.. 11.6 bpm.. 9.8 vorp


No contest.. :bowdown: ..:dancin





Better Finals peak = LBJ



MJ had the highest Finals series gamescores ever:


http://i67.tinypic.com/155koqr.jpg






Better single Finals game peak = LBJ


MJ had the better Finals series peak shown in the table above; one-offs are meaningless without goat ability over the entire series

And MJ's 47 gamescore in Game 2 against the 86' Celtics is 5 points higher than any game of Lebron's career.. And against a goat team





I could keep bumping this thread every time a noobie strolls through the forums but I feel most are aware of this by now? You can hate the info, maybe even twist it to fit an agenda, but it's all really true


You can't bump shit because MJ had the best regular season peak (88'), the best Finals series gamescores, and the highest single-game gamescore (63 vs goat celtics)

Here's why no one is close to Jordan:


- most MVP's ever (11)

- #1 all-time championship frequency since the ABA merger (6 in 15 yrs.. 40.0%.. it's really 6 in 11)

- best raw stats (only MJ averaged 30/5/5 for career; 10 scoring titles and the best ppg and offensive efficiency of any wing)

- best advanced stats (only MJ is top 2 in PER, bpm, vorp, ws/48, and he set the plus-minus record in 96')

- most seasons with 1st team all-nba and 1st team defense (9 seasons.. and they were consecutive, so the highest frequency of 1st team awards - 19 in 10 seasons)

- never carried (only guy that was never outscored by a teammate in a playoff series, and MJ led by average margin of 15.4 ppg over 2nd option)

- only player that never lost with a squad (1 or 2 seed), aka most unbeatable player, aka goat (kareem/lebron/magic, etc lost 6+ times each with 1 or 2 seeds; MJ was 6-0)

- only player to win multiple rings with just 1 all-star, except Kobe (Pau), Shaq (who had Kobe), and hakeem (when MJ was out of league)

- best winning stats ever - 33.7 ppg and 6.6 apg in 91-93' PO (27.2 and 7.2 for lebron in 12/13/16' PO)

- Best losing stats ever - 44 ppg against champion 86' celtics and their #1 defense

- highest gamescores for Finals series ever (all wins); highest gamescore ever for a non-winning series against a goat team (30.6 gamescore vs 86' boston, including a 47 gamescore in game 2)
.

[SpaceJam2]

88' MJ had the better peak and it's not close:


Regular Season Peaks

JORDAN 88':. 35.0 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 5.9 apg.. 3.2 spg.. 1.6 bpg.. 60.3 ts
LEBRON 13':. 26.8 ppg.. 1.3 oreb.. 6.8 dreb.. 7.3 apg.. 1.7 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 64.0 ts

JORDAN 88':. 34.1 usg.. 123 ortg.. 31.7 PER.. 21.2 ws.. 12.2 bpm.. 11.8 vorp
LEBRON 13':. 30.2 usg.. 125 ortg.. 31.6 PER.. 19.3 ws.. 11.6 bpm.. 9.8 vorp


No contest.. :bowdown: ..:dancin




MJ had the highest Finals series gamescores ever:


http://i67.tinypic.com/155koqr.jpg




MJ had the better Finals series peak shown in the table above; one-offs are meaningless without goat ability over the entire series

And MJ's 47 gamescore in Game 2 against the 86' Celtics is 5 points higher than any game of Lebron's career.. And against a goat team



You can't bump shit because MJ had the best regular season peak (88'), the best Finals series gamescores, and the highest single-game gamescore (63 vs goat celtics)

Here's why no one is close to Jordan:


- most MVP's ever (11)

- #1 all-time championship frequency since the ABA merger (6 in 15 yrs.. 40.0%.. it's really 6 in 11)

- best raw stats (only MJ averaged 30/5/5 for career; 10 scoring titles and the best ppg and offensive efficiency of any wing)

- best advanced stats (only MJ is top 2 in PER, bpm, vorp, ws/48, and he set the plus-minus record in 96')

- most seasons with 1st team all-nba and 1st team defense (9 seasons.. and they were consecutive, so the highest frequency of 1st team awards - 19 in 10 seasons)

- never carried (only guy that was never outscored by a teammate in a playoff series, and MJ led by average margin of 15.4 ppg over 2nd option)

- only player that never lost with a squad (1 or 2 seed), aka most unbeatable player, aka goat (kareem/lebron/magic, etc lost 6+ times each with 1 or 2 seeds; MJ was 6-0)

- only player to win multiple rings with just 1 all-star, except Kobe (Pau), Shaq (who had Kobe), and hakeem (when MJ was out of league)

- best winning stats ever - 33.7 ppg and 6.6 apg in 91-93' PO (27.2 and 7.2 for lebron in 12/13/16' PO)

- Best losing stats ever - 44 ppg against champion 86' celtics and their #1 defense

- highest gamescores for Finals series ever (all wins); highest gamescore ever for a non-winning series against a goat team (30.6 gamescore vs 86' boston, including a 47 gamescore in game 2)
.

Meltdown with a lot of false info

MJ's 88 had a lower ORrtg than 13 LeBron but that was his best offensive year? Are you just admitting defeat at this point?

LeBron had an ORtg of 125
MJ had an ORtg of 123

You're not even trying anymore...125 ORtg is top tier elite

Seasons of 125 ORtg (or higher)
LeBron: 1
Jordan: 1
Durant: 1

Bird: 0 (peaked at 121)
Shaq: 0 (peaked at 120)
Kareem: 0 (peaked at 120)
Harden: 0 (peaked at 120)
Kobe: 0 (peaked at 115)
Iverson: 0 (peaked at 115)
Westbrook: 0 (peaked at 115)
Hakeem: 0 (peaked at 114)

Everyone knows this 3ball my boy what are you trying to do? :lol You have to take the 125 or you lose by default obviously.

[TheCorporation]

Best season vs best season


LBJ in 2013
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 101
WS: 19.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 44.2



MJ in 1991
ORtg: 125
DRtg: 102
WS: 20.3
VORP: 9.8
GmScore high: 42.3

Now all bullshit aside, this is a pretty epic peak for peak season versus season. No agenda, no hate. Just pure appreciation for both legends :applause: :applause:


I mean shit, they are literally nearly identical in every advanced analytical (which yes, accounts for pace). Simply astonishing.

Again, no hate, just love.

Reminder, it's

LBJ
MJ


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who cares

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