LeBron was a better defensive player than MJ and Kobe

[TheCorporation]

I saw people arguing he was not better than MJ or Kobe which had me wondering how people didn't know that LeBro most definitely IS a better defensive player :wtf: So here it is, read it and weap


Regular season
Peak DRtg
LBJ = 97, 99, 100 (98.66 average)
MJ = 100, 100, 101 (100.33 average)
Goatbe = 98, 102, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 6.5; 5.7; 5.3 (5.83 average)
MJ = 6.2; 6.1; 5.6 (5.96 average)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 3.6; 2.8; 2.7 (3.03 average)
MJ = 2.7; 2.3; 1.8 (2.26 average)
Goatbe =1.7; .3; .3 (0.76 average)

Landslide win for LeBron. LBJ's peak was better in 2 of 3 categories as was his best 3 season average.


Playoffs


Peak DRtg
LBJ = 99, 99, 99 (99 average)
MJ = 101, 101, 101 (101 average)
Goatbe = 99, 101, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 1.6; 1.6; 1.5 (1.56 average *tie)
MJ = 1.7; 1.5; 1.5 (1.56 average*tie)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 5.8; 5.1; 4.3 (5.06 average)
MJ = 4.2; 3.8; 3.3 (3.76 average)
Goatbe =1.4; 1.2; .9 (1.16 average)

And again, another landslide win for LeBron. His peak was better in 2 of 3 categories, as was his best 3 season average.

I almost feel a bit silly posting this. Like, who didn't know this already? :confusedshrug:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbTmmZp3/big-if-u-dont-know.png

[G0ATbe]

Stats always leave Kobe on the outside looking in:( . I hate them so much

[TheCorporation]

Stats always leave Kobe on the outside looking in:( . I hate them so much

A lot of Kobe fans use their feelings and emotions to make decisions which cloud the factual, pragmatic nature of advanced analytics. Your'e one of the good Goatbe fans out there, tho, no doubt :cheers:

[MJistheGOAT]

Why do you sometimes use peak or few seasons sample stats and then start boasting about total stats and longevity????

At least be consistent.

I

[AlternativeAcc.]

[QUOTE=MJistheGOAT]Why do you sometimes use peak or few seasons sample stats and then start boasting about total stats and longevity????

At least be consistent.

I

[TheCorporation]

[QUOTE=MJistheGOAT]Why do you sometimes use peak or few seasons sample stats and then start boasting about total stats and longevity????

At least be consistent.

I

[TheCorporation]

Media narrative driven awards don't count little guy, sorry :lol


The stats and eye test don't lie... LeBron has many more pivotal defensive moments in the playoffs than Jordan and Kobe combined... LeBron has made a career out of shutting down MVPs and ruining their careers.. think Rose, Curry, and George

It is as if facts do not matter any longer when it comes to these crazies defending MJ.

MJ is a good player
He did many things well.

He is NOT better than LeBron.

Period.

[MJistheGOAT]

Media narrative driven awards don't count little guy, sorry :lol


The stats and eye test don't lie... LeBron has many more pivotal defensive moments in the playoffs than Jordan and Kobe combined... LeBron has made a career out of shutting down MVPs and ruining their careers.. think Rose, Curry, and George

Paul George got an MVP??? Nice info.
Curry has NEVER been shut down by Lebron

I think he also "shut down" Kawhi, Iggy and KD for a total of 4 FMVPs
Eye test: MJ by a mile
Stats: MJ
Awards: MJ

Lebron

[3ball]

[QUOTE=MJistheGOAT]Why do you sometimes use peak or few seasons sample stats and then start boasting about total stats and longevity????

At least be consistent.

I

[AlternativeAcc.]

[QUOTE=MJistheGOAT]Paul George got an MVP??? Nice info.
Curry has NEVER been shut down by Lebron

I think he also "shut down" Kawhi, Iggy and KD for a total of 4 FMVPs
Eye test: MJ by a mile
Stats: MJ
Awards: MJ

Lebron

[TheCorporation]

MJ was 38-39 years old for 2 seasons and also missed 2 seasons due to injury (86') and baseball (95') - so his 9 all-defense was in 11 seasons.. :bowdown:

And the reality is that there's never been a more intense, tenacious perimeter defender.. ever.. the tape shows him suffocating guys on the perimeter with goat reflexes to get steals and stops - no one in history had it like that - how many times was he guarding a guy behind the 3-pt line and jump to steal their entry pass to the post - cat-like reflexes, quickness, and perimeter athleticism that we've never seen before

MJ beat LeBron in 1 of 6 defensive analytic measures.

LeBron is the better defender. Obviously. Can we move on, now?

What was Mike EVER better than LBJ at?


Peak for peak LBJ > MJ
Best 3 season average LBJ > MJ

Then I did the same for the post season LBJ > MJ

LBJ led in 5 of the 6 categories. I mean. Ouch?

[MJistheGOAT]

Kawhi and Iggy combined for less PPG than LeBron's AVERAGE ppg in the finals.. literally

LeBron also beat KD, WB, and Harden.. 3 MVP's on the same team.. Wowzers


He's made a career out of shutting down MVP's in the playoffs and has better stats and more iconic moments than Kobe/Jordan combined, deal with it buddy

Kawhi and Iggy got FMVP as SF on the opposing team of Lebron.

Lebron + Wade + Bosh + rest of team + refs + lockout season beat baby KD, baby Wb and 6th man Harden.

KD in 2012 got 30.6 ppg on 548/394/839%
What a defensive performance, GOAT

[3ball]

MJ beat LeBron in 1 of 6 defensive analytic measures.

LeBron is the better defender. Obviously. Can we move on, now?

What was Mike EVER better than LBJ at?


Peak for peak LBJ > MJ
Best 3 season average LBJ > MJ

Then I did the same for the post season LBJ > MJ

LBJ led in 5 of the 6 categories. I mean. Ouch?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y7bnzchpKZ4


Lebron is slow compared to that.. he's fast for a forward, but slow compared to a quick guard

Remember mj's steal vs Xavier McDaniel and then the windmill slam? GOAT.. lebron ain't got it like that

[Gus Hemmingway]

We already knew from eye test, but now we have irrefutable evidence on wax :applause:

To make things worse LBJ is guarding the best of the best every night, not Kerry Kittles and Jeff Hornacek

This era is loaded from top to bottom with HOF forwards

[superduper]

This kid spews Gamescore/VORP/DWS but has literally NO idea what they mean.

Hey dude what's Gamescore about again? Dominance? :roll: :roll:

[MJistheGOAT]

We already knew from eye test, but now we have irrefutable evidence on wax :applause:

To make things worse LBJ is guarded the best of the best every night, not Kerry Kittles and Jeff Hornacek

Boris Diaw
JJ Barea
Jason Terry
Jason Kidd
Stephen Curry

[kennethgriffen]

so lebron had 3 chances every year to make all defensive 1st team and kobe/MJ had 2 chances

yet kobe/MJ both made 4 more selections


but OP has peak analytics lol

[TheCorporation]

We already knew from eye test, but now we have irrefutable evidence on wax :applause:

To make things worse LBJ is guarded the best of the best every night, not Kerry Kittles and Jeff Hornacek

The more we look, the more we win :banana:

MJ is fading faster and faster.

Eye-test = No doubt, who TF else can guard all 5 positions

LBJ was guarding MVP Rose in 4th quarter situations and Gasol in the post and Thiago Splitter/Duncan at the rim

MJ was guarding...John Starks?

I mean cot damn :roll: :roll:

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kawhi and Iggy got FMVP as SF on the opposing team of Lebron.

Lebron + Wade + Bosh + rest of team + refs + lockout season beat baby KD, baby Wb and 6th man Harden.

KD in 2012 got 30.6 ppg on 548/394/839%
What a defensive performance, GOAT
What were their PPG for those series?

Harden was a budding superstar coming into that 2012 series... until he ran into LeBron

Rockets fans owe their entire lives to LeBron for shutting down Harden's hype or else he would've never been traded. Did the same thing to Rose and Curry.. completely emasculated several MVP's

[Manny98]

[QUOTE=MJistheGOAT]Why do you sometimes use peak or few seasons sample stats and then start boasting about total stats and longevity????

At least be consistent.

I

[tpols]

he has some of the worst defensive playoff performances of all time. dudes literally make their careers against lebron lmao

[TheCorporation]

so lebron had 3 chances every year to make all defensive 1st team and kobe/MJ had 2 chances

yet kobe/MJ both made 4 more selections


but OP has peak analytics lol

Wait a minute, now...Whatever happened to all those "media awards" you were crying about? :eek:

Careful now, Kenny

[kennethgriffen]

The more we look, the more we win :banana:

MJ is fading faster and faster.

Eye-test = No doubt, who TF else can guard all 5 positions

LBJ was guarding MVP Rose in 4th quarter situations and Gasol in the post and Thiago Splitter/Duncan at the rim

MJ was guarding...John Starks?

I mean cot damn :roll: :roll:


when the league transitioned to positionless basketball around 2011/12 of course lebron can play center


but he wouldn't have been able to when shaq/yao/ewing types were around


and just being able to matchup physically doesn't mean you can stop anyone

[kennethgriffen]

Wait a minute, now...Whatever happened to all those "media awards" you were crying about? :eek:

Careful now, Kenny

coaches voted for all of kobe and MJ's defensive teams moron

[kennethgriffen]

:applause:


stop quoting yourself to cover up me owning your soul

[Manny98]

so lebron had 3 chances every year to make all defensive 1st team and kobe/MJ had 2 chances

yet kobe/MJ both made 4 more selections


but OP has peak analytics lol
Its 2 guards 2 forwards 1 Center

And because there is a higher quantity of elite defensive forwards than guards its harder for Forwards to get defensive team selections

Chris Paul will finish his career with more defensive first teams than Kawhi that speaks for itself

[TheCorporation]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/ROKogxIhBa2U8/giphy.gif

[LAmbruh]

I saw people arguing he was not better than MJ or Kobe which had me wondering how people didn't know that LeBro most definitely IS a better defensive player :wtf: So here it is, read it and weap


Regular season
Peak DRtg
LBJ = 97, 99, 100 (98.66 average)
MJ = 100, 100, 101 (100.33 average)
Goatbe = 98, 102, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 6.5; 5.7; 5.3 (5.83 average)
MJ = 6.2; 6.1; 5.6 (5.96 average)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 3.6; 2.8; 2.7 (3.03 average)
MJ = 2.7; 2.3; 1.8 (2.26 average)
Goatbe =1.7; .3; .3 (0.76 average)

Landslide win for LeBron. LBJ's peak was better in 2 of 3 categories as was his best 3 season average.


Playoffs


Peak DRtg
LBJ = 99, 99, 99 (99 average)
MJ = 101, 101, 101 (101 average)
Goatbe = 99, 101, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 1.6; 1.6; 1.5 (1.56 average *tie)
MJ = 1.7; 1.5; 1.5 (1.56 average*tie)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 5.8; 5.1; 4.3 (5.06 average)
MJ = 4.2; 3.8; 3.3 (3.76 average)
Goatbe =1.4; 1.2; .9 (1.16 average)

And again, another landslide win for LeBron. His peak was better in 2 of 3 categories, as was his best 3 season average.

I almost feel a bit silly posting this. Like, who didn't know this already? :confusedshrug:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbTmmZp3/big-if-u-dont-know.png
damn :applause:

[TheCorporation]

Its 2 guards 2 forwards 1 Center

And because there is a higher quantity of elite defensive forwards than guards its harder for Forwards to get defensive team selections

Chris Paul will finish his career with more defensive first teams than Kawhi that speaks for itself

Exactly, as if Kobe would ever win 1st team versus Kawhi, Draymond, Butler, PG13, etc.

[Rico2016]

I saw people arguing he was not better than MJ or Kobe which had me wondering how people didn't know that LeBro most definitely IS a better defensive player :wtf: So here it is, read it and weap


Regular season
Peak DRtg
LBJ = 97, 99, 100 (98.66 average)
MJ = 100, 100, 101 (100.33 average)
Goatbe = 98, 102, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 6.5; 5.7; 5.3 (5.83 average)
MJ = 6.2; 6.1; 5.6 (5.96 average)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 3.6; 2.8; 2.7 (3.03 average)
MJ = 2.7; 2.3; 1.8 (2.26 average)
Goatbe =1.7; .3; .3 (0.76 average)

Landslide win for LeBron. LBJ's peak was better in 2 of 3 categories as was his best 3 season average.


Playoffs


Peak DRtg
LBJ = 99, 99, 99 (99 average)
MJ = 101, 101, 101 (101 average)
Goatbe = 99, 101, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 1.6; 1.6; 1.5 (1.56 average *tie)
MJ = 1.7; 1.5; 1.5 (1.56 average*tie)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 5.8; 5.1; 4.3 (5.06 average)
MJ = 4.2; 3.8; 3.3 (3.76 average)
Goatbe =1.4; 1.2; .9 (1.16 average)

And again, another landslide win for LeBron. His peak was better in 2 of 3 categories, as was his best 3 season average.

I almost feel a bit silly posting this. Like, who didn't know this already? :confusedshrug:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbTmmZp3/big-if-u-dont-know.png

:eek: :eek:

[sammichoffate]

https://i.giphy.com/media/7Toe9ML7M9aw7Sd3f6/source.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[Elosha]

The more we look, the more we win :banana:

MJ is fading faster and faster.

Eye-test = No doubt, who TF else can guard all 5 positions

LBJ was guarding MVP Rose in 4th quarter situations and Gasol in the post and Thiago Splitter/Duncan at the rim

MJ was guarding...John Starks?

I mean cot damn :roll: :roll:

When LeBron tried to guard Dwight Howard in 2009, he got destroyed. Any solid offensive center in their prime would have a field day with LeBron. He's just not tall enough or really even physical enough to handle good centers. The idea that LeBron can consistently guard 5 positions is a myth. The proof is in the pudding.

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=188

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=207

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=257

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=304

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=127

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=155

This is really not a knock on LeBron, no one in NBA history has the versatility to truly defend all 5 positions. Still, for his career, Lebron's best defensive trait has been his versatility, not really his intensity or his intelligence. Practically everyone except delusional internet posters know that LeBron's defense has fallen off dramatically since 2016 at the latest. Even before then it was starting to slip in 2014 and 2015. He just hasn't been able to sustain true defensive greatness, as doing so would probably require energy he likes to reserve for the offensive end of the court.

You know if you weren't so dogmatic about taking ridiculous positions in favor of LeBron, you'd actually not be a not-half-bad poster. I've seen you post on other topics once in awhile besides LeBron, and you appear to actually be thoughtful. :confusedshrug: You should take that same tack with LeBron/Jordan debates.

[TheCorporation]

When LeBron tried to guard Dwight Howard in 2009, he got destroyed. Any solid offensive center in their prime would have a field day with LeBron. He's just not tall enough or really even physical enough to handle good centers. The idea that LeBron can consistently guard 5 positions is a myth. The proof is in the pudding.

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=188

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=207

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=257

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=304

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=127

https://youtu.be/tEUHjblQ54Q?t=155

This is really not a knock on LeBron, no one in NBA history has the versatility to truly defend all 5 positions. Still, for his career, Lebron's best defensive trait has been his versatility, not really his intensity or his intelligence. Practically everyone except delusional internet posters know that LeBron's defense has fallen off dramatically since 2016 at the latest. Even before then it was starting to slip in 2014 and 2015. He just hasn't been able to sustain true defensive greatness, as doing so would probably require energy he likes to reserve for the offensive end of the court.

You know if you weren't so dogmatic about taking ridiculous positions in favor of LeBron, you'd actually not be a not-half-bad poster. I've seen you post on other topics once in awhile besides LeBron, and you appear to actually be thoughtful. :confusedshrug: You should take that same tack with LeBron/Jordan debates.

But where did I post something based on emotions as opposed to facts?

LeBron DID have a better Defensive peak
He also had a better 3 season peak (I took each of their best 3 seasons)

I did this for the post season and the playoffs

LeBron led in 5 of the 6 metrics. I'm not making this stuff up I swear it.

I'm sure we can nitpick flashes, like LeBron versus Pau Gasol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3O94yv4vc

Or against Paul George in 2017:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVd71pGalng


Game 1 - 2/5 (40%), 1 turnover
Game 2 - 2/3 (66%), 2 turnovers
Game 3 - 3/8 (37%)
Game 4 - 1/4 (25%) 1 turnover

TOTAL: 8/20 (40%), 4 turnovers

LeBron James Great Defense on Paul George - 2017 Playoffs 1st Round


But I took full seasons and playoff runs, which are undoubtedly greater, and more accurate sample sizes.

[3ball]

Bird..... Career DPBM:. 2.5
Pippen Career DPBM:. 2.4

Bird..... Career DRtg:. 101
Pippen Career DRtg:. 102


The advanced defensive stats aren't reliable because they're based on TEAM performance.. This is from basketball-reference:



"Out of necessity (due to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute."


This is how DRtg works, and subsequently DPBM and DWS... These stats result in hundreds of similarly erroneous conclusions like Bird > Pippen defensively

Also, there's no lack of boxscore data for offense, so ortg is reliable (points produced per possession), while drtg isn't because we lack the necessary data

[TheCorporation]

Bird..... Career DPBM:. 2.5
Pippen Career DPBM:. 2.4

Bird..... Career DRtg:. 101
Pippen Career DRtg:. 102


The advanced defensive stats aren't reliable because they're based on TEAM performance.. This is from basketball-reference:



"Out of necessity (due to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute."


This is how DRtg works, and subsequently DPBM and DWS... These stats result in hundreds of similarly erroneous conclusions like Bird > Pippen defensively

Also, there's no lack of boxscore data for offense, so ortg is reliable (points produced per possession), while drtg isn't because we lack the necessary data

So based on your methodology could we say LeBron "motivated and willed" his team to perform at a higher level defensively, DESPITE the fact that MJ was playing alongside Pippen for nearly his entire career? I'm not sure how this information is helping you.

[3ball]

So based on your methodology could we say LeBron "motivated and willed" his team to perform at a higher level defensively, DESPITE the fact that MJ was playing alongside Pippen for nearly his entire career? I'm not sure how this information is helping you.


It's not my methodology - it's not my stat - I just posted what the creators of the stat said

DRtg is a measure of defensive rebounds, blocks steals.. So frontcourt players have better drtg because of defensive rebounds - that's why bird and lebron beat pippen and Mike at drtg

As the creators of the stats said in bolded red above, there isn't sufficient boxscore data to measure defense, so it's predicated on those 3 stats and assumptions gleaned from the teams defense

So it's shit.

Otoh, a player's offensive efficiency (ORtg, aka points produced per possession) is 100% measurable because we have all the offensive data needed (pts, assists, shooting efficiency, turnovers, etc)..

thats why mj's goat offensive efficiency among high-scoring wings is amazing - better efficiency per possession and 4-5 more ppg than anyone in history.. the result is the most unbeatable player ever when he had a squad (6/6 and undefeated with 1 or 2 seed... with just 1 all-star teammate)

[egokiller]

Media narrative driven awards don't count little guy, sorry :lol


The stats and eye test don't lie... LeBron has many more pivotal defensive moments in the playoffs than Jordan and Kobe combined... LeBron has made a career out of shutting down MVPs and ruining their careers.. think Rose, Curry, and George

He's made a career of losing FMVP's to the guy that shut him down in the finals.
:applause:

[TheCorporation]

He's made a career of losing FMVP's to the guy that shut him down in the finals.
:applause:

MJ was passing them out like candy at Halloween in the 1st round to Bird, Dumars, Thomas.

Poor fella never even sniffed the second round before Daddy Pippen :(

[TheCorporation]

It's not my methodology - it's not my stat - I just posted what the creators of the stat said

DRtg is a measure of defensive rebounds, blocks steals.. So frontcourt players have better drtg because of defensive rebounds - that's why bird and lebron beat pippen and Mike at drtg

As the creators of the stats said in bolded red above, there isn't sufficient boxscore data to measure defense, so it's predicated on those 3 stats and assumptions gleaned from the teams defense

So it's shit.

Otoh, a player's offensive efficiency (ORtg, aka points produced per possession) is 100% measurable because we have all the offensive data needed (pts, assists, shooting efficiency, turnovers, etc)..

thats why mj's goat offensive efficiency among high-scoring wings is amazing - better efficiency per possession and 4-5 more ppg than anyone in history.. the result is the most unbeatable player ever when he had a squad (6/6 and undefeated with 1 or 2 seed... with just 1 all-star teammate)

1st off, this is about defense
Secondly, I've already shown LeBron had a better offensive peak in the regular season and the Finals. Do I need to bump those again, too? :facepalm

[ImKobe]

I guess the white, unathletic Larry Bird was better than all these guys

RS:

peak Drtg: 98, 98, 99
peak DWS: 6.2, 6.1, 5.7
peak DBPM: 3.3, 3.0, 3.0

PO:

peak Drtg: 94, 95, 96
peak DWS: 1.7, 1.7, 1.6
peak DBPM: 4.7, 4.5, 4.1

[kennethgriffen]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/ROKogxIhBa2U8/giphy.gif


lebron has some good highlight blocks. only problem is on that specific play you posted a gif of lebron was waiting by the rim to cherry pick another rebound instead of staying home on his man at the 3 point line


and for every block lebron gets like this hes giving up 20-30 points off leaving his man wide open

[TheCorporation]

I guess the white, unathletic Larry Bird was better than all these guys

RS:

peak Drtg: 98, 98, 99
peak DWS: 6.2, 6.1, 5.7
peak DBPM: 3.3, 3.0, 3.0

PO:

peak Drtg: 94, 95, 96
peak DWS: 1.7, 1.7, 1.6
peak DBPM: 4.7, 4.5, 4.1

6'10 PF disqualified, as 3ball mentioned.

[TheCorporation]

lebron has some good highlight blocks. only problem is on that specific play you posted a gif of lebron was waiting by the rim to cherry pick another rebound instead of staying home on his man at the 3 point line


and for every block lebron gets like this hes giving up 20-30 points off leaving his man wide open

You're a moron, Lebron was the Heat's primary rim protector. Or do you think it was 15 min Chris Andersen or 6'9 Joel Anthony?

Wake
up
be
better

[3ball]

1st off, this is about defense
Secondly, I've already shown LeBron had a better offensive peak in the regular season and the Finals. Do I need to bump those again, too? :facepalm
I showed you that mj's peak in the playoffs and Finals obliterates lebron

Do I need to bump that?

And lebron ties MJ in advanced stat peak for regular season, but gets crushed in raw stats (5 less ppg on equal shooting efficiency and offensive rating)

So if you want to start posting stats, you'll get embarrassed like lebron this year.. MJ has better raw stats and advanced stats for peak, career or any period you want to use

[TheCorporation]

I showed you that mj's peak in the playoffs and Finals obliterates lebron

Do I need to bump that?

And lebron ties MJ in advanced stat peak for regular season, but gets crushed in raw stats (5 less ppg on equal shooting efficiency and offensive rating)

So if you want to start posting stats, you'll get embarrassed like lebron this year.. MJ has better raw stats and advanced stats for peak, career or any period you want to use

No...

Not defensively (obviously, as this thread is proof)
Not in points scored
Not in steals
Not in rebounds
Not in assists
Not in assist to turnover ratio
Not in game winners
Not in elimination game ppg
Not in greatest Finals game
Not in greatest back-to-back Finals game
Not in greatest 3-game stretch

However, MJ does have 2 Finals rings that were below LBJ's worst Finals ring so I guess he has that going for himself :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

No...

Not defensively (obviously, as this thread is proof)
Not in points scored
Not in steals
Not in rebounds
Not in assists
Not in assist to turnover ratio
Not in game winners
Not in elimination game ppg
Not in greatest Finals game
Not in greatest back-to-back Finals game
Not in greatest 3-game stretch

However, MJ does have 2 Finals rings that were below LBJ's worst Finals ring so I guess he has that going for himself :confusedshrug:
MJ has better per game in all the meaningful stats

And better Finals games than lebron's best, better playoff games, better playoff runs, better Finals series, better career, better peak

Better raw stats, better advanced stat

this is all publicly availabile info and can be posted easily

Finally, lebron's worst Finals are the worst in history for a #1 option (07', 11), and he won a Finals as a net negative while getting 23 on 43% thru 6 games (worse than mj's 27 on 42 in 96').. no comparison bud

[TheCorporation]

MJ has better per game in all the meaningful stats

And better Finals games than lebron's best, better playoff games, better playoff runs, better Finals series, better career, better peak

Better raw stats, better advanced stat

this is all publicly availabile info and can be posted easily

Finally, lebron's worst Finals are the worst in history for a #1 option (07', 11), and he won a Finals as a net negative while getting 23 on 43% thru 6 games (worse than mj's 27 on 42 in 96').. no comparison bud

How can you say that with a straight face? You're a blatant liar dude.

Plus if we go '07 then we also have to go 1-9 (which does not bode well for you) AND 0-6 vs Big Bird

Furthermore, if we talk competition, well...That's another big L for you.

[sportjames23]

So, OP, when did Lebron win Defensive Player of the Year, particularly in an era dominated by bigs clogging the paint? I'll wait for your answer.

[Dray n Klay]

All I remember is Payton/Kemp taking turns shitting on MJ in the 1996 Finals :(

[3ball]

How can you say that with a straight face? You're a blatant liar dude.

.
Because it's the consensus

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/jordan-lebron-goat-debate-americans-jordan-2019-3


Ur just delusional

[paksat]

this forum is literally one big illuminati of l39ron james nerds

they must have like a 100 accounts all posting the same stupid data "the ADVANNCCEEEEDDDD STATS PEOPLE"

yeh the same ones that have the glove payton outside of the top 200 defensive lists all time :roll:

nerd stats, nerd player, stay 3/9'n it up

[LostCause]

this forum is literally one big illuminati of l39ron james nerds

they must have like a 100 accounts all posting the same stupid data "the ADVANNCCEEEEDDDD STATS PEOPLE"

yeh the same ones that have the glove payton outside of the top 200 defensive lists all time :roll:

nerd stats, nerd player, stay 3/9'n it up

Thing is, they don't even use advanced stats that are respected. The stats they use are widely disregarded by almost anyone that isn't a casual fan reading BBRef

Couple quotes:

"Stats like Defensive Win Shares are considered virtually useless among real statisticians;"

" Still, it rewards players who record counting stats (steals, blocks, etc.) more so than it does normal, fundamentally sound defense. Timoth

[Manny98]

If the stat makes LeBron look better than Jordan then It's useless and irrelevant according to LostCause :rolleyes:

[LostCause]

If the stat makes LeBron look better than Jordan then It's useless and irrelevant according to LostCause :rolleyes:

DBPM shows Russell Westbrook the last 3 years is a better defender than LeBron ever was, by a large margin. Better DRTG the last 6 years and better DWS the last 5 years.

Keep using them though, I'm just telling y'all wassup so y'all ain't out here looking like idiots. If either of you actually understood what goes into those stats you'd know why they don't say anything for individual defense

But you can prove me wrong. Tell me why it's a good, valuable way to measure individual defense, especially across eras and teams.

[sportjames23]

All I remember is Payton/Kemp taking turns shitting on MJ in the 1996 Finals :(

Then your memory, like your intelligence, is shit.

[Gileraracer]

This guy is a beast on defense. Let it be known!


https://i.giphy.com/media/7Toe9ML7M9aw7Sd3f6/source.gif



:roll:

[Gileraracer]

Defensive juggernaut!


http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/15517973533198297.gif

http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/1551797455788578.gif

http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/15517973023198267.gif


:lol :lol :lol

[72-10]

Stfu

[TheCorporation]

All I remember is Payton/Kemp taking turns shitting on MJ in the 1996 Finals :(

Imagine LBJ winning FMVP but Blake Griffin (Shamn Kemp) had a higher GameScore :lol :lol

[TheCorporation]

DBPM shows Russell Westbrook the last 3 years is a better defender than LeBron ever was, by a large margin. Better DRTG the last 6 years and better DWS the last 5 years.

Keep using them though, I'm just telling y'all wassup so y'all ain't out here looking like idiots. If either of you actually understood what goes into those stats you'd know why they don't say anything for individual defense

But you can prove me wrong. Tell me why it's a good, valuable way to measure individual defense, especially across eras and teams.

So when it works for MJ it's a good stat and when it works against him it's a bad stat. Got it...

And what does this even have to do with Russ? Whoever said he wasn't a good defender?

[3ball]

So when it works for MJ it's a good stat and when it works against him it's a bad stat. Got it...

And what does this even have to do with Russ? Whoever said he wasn't a good defender?
DRtg and DBPM rank bird ahead of pippen

These stats merely count steals, blocks and defensive rebounds..

The creators of the stat said there isn't enough defensive boxscore data to get an accurate stat for points allowed like there is for ORtg (points produced)

So why are you using a stat that ranks bird ahead of pippen defensively??

[TheCorporation]

I saw people arguing he was not better than MJ or Kobe which had me wondering how people didn't know that LeBro most definitely IS a better defensive player :wtf: So here it is, read it and weap


Regular season
Peak DRtg
LBJ = 97, 99, 100 (98.66 average)
MJ = 100, 100, 101 (100.33 average)
Goatbe = 98, 102, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 6.5; 5.7; 5.3 (5.83 average)
MJ = 6.2; 6.1; 5.6 (5.96 average)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 3.6; 2.8; 2.7 (3.03 average)
MJ = 2.7; 2.3; 1.8 (2.26 average)
Goatbe =1.7; .3; .3 (0.76 average)

Landslide win for LeBron. LBJ's peak was better in 2 of 3 categories as was his best 3 season average.


Playoffs


Peak DRtg
LBJ = 99, 99, 99 (99 average)
MJ = 101, 101, 101 (101 average)
Goatbe = 99, 101, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 1.6; 1.6; 1.5 (1.56 average *tie)
MJ = 1.7; 1.5; 1.5 (1.56 average*tie)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 5.8; 5.1; 4.3 (5.06 average)
MJ = 4.2; 3.8; 3.3 (3.76 average)
Goatbe =1.4; 1.2; .9 (1.16 average)

And again, another landslide win for LeBron. His peak was better in 2 of 3 categories, as was his best 3 season average.

I almost feel a bit silly posting this. Like, who didn't know this already? :confusedshrug:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbTmmZp3/big-if-u-dont-know.png

Did anyone not already know this?

https://i.postimg.cc/jSzDvzMx/tenor.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/9XNrQrGn/screen-shot-2018-05-21-at-11-42-59-am.jpg

[Gileraracer]

Eye test


http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/15517973533198297.gif

http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/1551797455788578.gif

http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/15517973023198267.gif


/thread

[Leviathon1121]

Eye test


http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/15517973533198297.gif

http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/1551797455788578.gif

http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/15517973023198267.gif


/thread
Eye test

[nayte]

Haha so bird and Westbrook were better then all of them.
I was told in this forum years ago that drtg etc can't be compared over eras. Does that still hold true

[Manny98]

Eye test


http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/15517973533198297.gif

http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/1551797455788578.gif

http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/15517973023198267.gif


/thread
First gif wtf is Tyson Chandler doing biting on a pump fake from a Center that can't shoot 3s :facepalm

Second gif who on earth is Muscala guarding :roll:

Third gif why is McGee pressing so high on a non shooter :facepalm

None of those gifs are LeBrons fault lol

Try again

[kennethgriffen]

I saw people arguing he was not better than MJ or Kobe which had me wondering how people didn't know that LeBro most definitely IS a better defensive player :wtf: So here it is, read it and weap


Regular season
Peak DRtg
LBJ = 97, 99, 100 (98.66 average)
MJ = 100, 100, 101 (100.33 average)
Goatbe = 98, 102, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 6.5; 5.7; 5.3 (5.83 average)
MJ = 6.2; 6.1; 5.6 (5.96 average)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 3.6; 2.8; 2.7 (3.03 average)
MJ = 2.7; 2.3; 1.8 (2.26 average)
Goatbe =1.7; .3; .3 (0.76 average)

Landslide win for LeBron. LBJ's peak was better in 2 of 3 categories as was his best 3 season average.


Playoffs


Peak DRtg
LBJ = 99, 99, 99 (99 average)
MJ = 101, 101, 101 (101 average)
Goatbe = 99, 101, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 1.6; 1.6; 1.5 (1.56 average *tie)
MJ = 1.7; 1.5; 1.5 (1.56 average*tie)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 5.8; 5.1; 4.3 (5.06 average)
MJ = 4.2; 3.8; 3.3 (3.76 average)
Goatbe =1.4; 1.2; .9 (1.16 average)

And again, another landslide win for LeBron. His peak was better in 2 of 3 categories, as was his best 3 season average.

I almost feel a bit silly posting this. Like, who didn't know this already? :confusedshrug:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbTmmZp3/big-if-u-dont-know.png



https://i.ibb.co/9Wx44Zw/Screen-Shot-2019-05-14-at-5-40-50-AM.png

[nayte]

Haha I forgot about that. A big down vote for the LeBron crew over that.

[Gileraracer]

First gif wtf is Tyson Chandler doing biting on a pump fake from a Center that can't shoot 3s :facepalm

Second gif who on earth is Muscala guarding :roll:

Third gif why is McGee pressing so high on a non shooter :facepalm

None of those gifs are LeBrons fault lol

Try again

Lebrons career based on excuses as always

[LeCola]

https://media.giphy.com/media/xUPGcdeU3wvdNPa1Py/giphy.gif

[paksat]

First gif wtf is Tyson Chandler doing biting on a pump fake from a Center that can't shoot 3s :facepalm

Second gif who on earth is Muscala guarding :roll:

Third gif why is McGee pressing so high on a non shooter :facepalm

None of those gifs are LeBrons fault lol

Try again

help defense?

no no l39ron only knows help offense :roll:

[TheCorporation]

Jordan had 6 championship runs to LeBron's 3

How many times did either player lead a playoff run with a DRTg under 101?

Lebron = 2 for 3
Jordan = 0 for 6 :(

Yeah. It's true.

[superduper]

Jordan had 6 championship runs to LeBron's 3

How many times did either player lead a playoff run with a DRTg under 101?

Lebron = 2 for 3
Jordan = 0 for 6 :(

Yeah. It's true.

Can you please explain what DRating means, how it is calculated, and how it translates to real world impact on the court while playing actual basketball?

Or will you just keep spewing it without having any idea wtf it means or wtf you're talking about?

Thanks.

[TheCorporation]

Can you please explain what DRating means, how it is calculated, and how it translates to real world impact on the court while playing actual basketball?

Or will you just keep spewing it without having any idea wtf it means or wtf you're talking about?

Thanks.

LeBron :mad:

[bullettooth]

https://i.postimg.cc/k5XJ92Lg/jabroni-lames-defense.gif

https://i.giphy.com/media/7Toe9ML7M9aw7Sd3f6/source.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/5w2fFuVr3v3E28Pggu/source.gif

[TheCorporation]

Jordan had 6 championship runs to LeBron's 3

How many times did either player lead a playoff run with a DRTg under 101?

Lebron = 2 for 3
Jordan = 0 for 6 :(

Yeah. It's true.

Anyone?

[TheCorporation]

So what was MJ even better than LBJ at?

Scoring? No
Stacking the deck? Yes
Defending? no
Game winners in clutch? No
Play making? No
Rebounding? No
Playing weak opponents? Yes
Losing in the 1st round? Yes

[Smoke117]

To be fair, being a better defensive player than Kobe isn't exactly saying a whole lot.

[Cold soul]

MJ is superior defender than both Kobe and Lebron he

[Duncan21formvp]

If the case why would 4 guys at his position had won finals mvp over him?

[sportjames23]

If the case why would 4 guys at his position had won finals mvp over him?

GOT. HIM.

[Glide2keva]

Sigh, this is still a thing?

LeBron will never pass MJ. Period.

Saying he was a better defensive player than Jordan is laughable.

[ImKobe]

Never have I seen Lebron pick someone up 94 ft and shut them down.

[FKAri]

Never have I seen Lebron pick someone up 94 ft and shut them down.
Because LeChaseDown can shut them down at 0 ft. No need to prance around while bent over like a constipated Asian trying to take a shit on the perimeter. It's just not a good look.

[3ball]

https://i.postimg.cc/k5XJ92Lg/jabroni-lames-defense.gif

https://i.giphy.com/media/7Toe9ML7M9aw7Sd3f6/source.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/5w2fFuVr3v3E28Pggu/source.gif




:oldlol: .. A stark contrast from:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2019/ltx3Lq.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2019/xkVLTJ.gif

[And1AllDay]

A few more fax for yall

Steph Curry is still negative in playoffs
https://i.postimg.cc/3J4XcJvF/Curry-DBPM.png

Why

Jordan was negative too in the playoffs so I guess that makes sense, both are good scorers but not good 2 way players

https://i.postimg.cc/kMZ8K3p6/Jordan-DBPM.png

Kevin Durant too was a negative and barely positive this year and last
https://i.postimg.cc/zGYg2w5q/KD-DBPM.png


Just for reference I can now show you the greatest two way player of all time

Lebron Raymone

https://i.postimg.cc/sXHWTtfL/Bron-DBPM.png

[bigkingsfan]

:oldlol: .. A stark contrast from:


G Hill shook the shit out of Ordan. :oldlol:

[sportjames23]

G Hill shook the shit out of Ordan. :oldlol:


You're not only stupid, but blind, too.

[bigkingsfan]

You're not only stupid, but blind, too.
I wasn't referring to that play, baby boi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg5Wr7kgrwM

[And1AllDay]

I saw people arguing he was not better than MJ or Kobe which had me wondering how people didn't know that LeBro most definitely IS a better defensive player :wtf: So here it is, read it and weap


Regular season
Peak DRtg
LBJ = 97, 99, 100 (98.66 average)
MJ = 100, 100, 101 (100.33 average)
Goatbe = 98, 102, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 6.5; 5.7; 5.3 (5.83 average)
MJ = 6.2; 6.1; 5.6 (5.96 average)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 3.6; 2.8; 2.7 (3.03 average)
MJ = 2.7; 2.3; 1.8 (2.26 average)
Goatbe =1.7; .3; .3 (0.76 average)

Landslide win for LeBron. LBJ's peak was better in 2 of 3 categories as was his best 3 season average.


Playoffs


Peak DRtg
LBJ = 99, 99, 99 (99 average)
MJ = 101, 101, 101 (101 average)
Goatbe = 99, 101, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 1.6; 1.6; 1.5 (1.56 average *tie)
MJ = 1.7; 1.5; 1.5 (1.56 average*tie)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 5.8; 5.1; 4.3 (5.06 average)
MJ = 4.2; 3.8; 3.3 (3.76 average)
Goatbe =1.4; 1.2; .9 (1.16 average)

And again, another landslide win for LeBron. His peak was better in 2 of 3 categories, as was his best 3 season average.

I almost feel a bit silly posting this. Like, who didn't know this already? :confusedshrug:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbTmmZp3/big-if-u-dont-know.png

Bump becos someone didnt know

[And1AllDay]

I wasn't referring to that play, baby boi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg5Wr7kgrwM

:banana:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbTmmZp3/big-if-u-dont-know.png[/QUOTE]

[TheCorporation]

VORP turnt up too

https://i.postimg.cc/vH5N6YJQ/Vorp559028471907.jpg

[bullettooth]

VORP turnt up too

https://i.postimg.cc/vH5N6YJQ/Vorp559028471907.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/23h86lh.jpg

[PickernRoller]

Reminder about who we're dealing with in OP:

https://i.ibb.co/XDcYFYd/Ronnie.jpg

[TheCorporation]

Reminder about who we're dealing with in OP:

https://i.ibb.co/XDcYFYd/Ronnie.jpg


Reminder about who we're dealing with in this reply above:

https://i.postimg.cc/qvS6Vr73/Twin_Pickern.png

[PickernRoller]

What has wheels but can't walk?

https://i.ibb.co/XDcYFYd/Ronnie.jpg

[SpaceJam2]

I saw people arguing he was not better than MJ or Kobe which had me wondering how people didn't know that LeBro most definitely IS a better defensive player :wtf: So here it is, read it and weap


Regular season
Peak DRtg
LBJ = 97, 99, 100 (98.66 average)
MJ = 100, 100, 101 (100.33 average)
Goatbe = 98, 102, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 6.5; 5.7; 5.3 (5.83 average)
MJ = 6.2; 6.1; 5.6 (5.96 average)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 3.6; 2.8; 2.7 (3.03 average)
MJ = 2.7; 2.3; 1.8 (2.26 average)
Goatbe =1.7; .3; .3 (0.76 average)

Landslide win for LeBron. LBJ's peak was better in 2 of 3 categories as was his best 3 season average.


Playoffs


Peak DRtg
LBJ = 99, 99, 99 (99 average)
MJ = 101, 101, 101 (101 average)
Goatbe = 99, 101, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 1.6; 1.6; 1.5 (1.56 average *tie)
MJ = 1.7; 1.5; 1.5 (1.56 average*tie)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 5.8; 5.1; 4.3 (5.06 average)
MJ = 4.2; 3.8; 3.3 (3.76 average)
Goatbe =1.4; 1.2; .9 (1.16 average)

And again, another landslide win for LeBron. His peak was better in 2 of 3 categories, as was his best 3 season average.

I almost feel a bit silly posting this. Like, who didn't know this already? :confusedshrug:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbTmmZp3/big-if-u-dont-know.png

:eek:

[TheCorporation]

Jordan had 6 championship runs to LeBron's 3

How many times did either player lead a playoff run with a DRTg under 101?

Lebron = 2 for 3
Jordan = 0 for 6 :(

Yeah. It's true.


No response? I am the official 3ball Slayer

https://i.postimg.cc/jSzDvzMx/tenor.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/9XNrQrGn/screen-shot-2018-05-21-at-11-42-59-am.jpg

[Smoke117]

I'd agree with you as for as prime and peak (and only a few years), but overall Jordan was the best defensive player of the three if wer'e talking about consistency.

[SamuraiSWISH]

1) Mike
2) Kobe
3) LeBron

Defensively ... obviously

[Uncle Drew]

What has wheels but can't walk?
Uhm, any object with wheels, ever? What kind of question is that?

[NBASTATMAN]

Lebron was getting better defensive ratings while playing in THE NBA during the no hand CHECKING RULES.. So he better by a large margin ..


lebron is the GOAT.. :bowdown:

[Nikola_]

Inflated stats due to DREB

[egokiller]

Hey corporation/RRR3, did Josh Gad call yet?

https://i.ibb.co/85z0Zcz/gg.jpg

[DaHeezy]

What has wheels but can't walk?

https://i.ibb.co/XDcYFYd/Ronnie.jpg

Everytime this dude posts this it just reiterates just how bad Simon lives rent free :lol
Simon owns this guy's soul.

[TheCorporation]

Everytime this dude posts this it just reiterates just how bad Simon lives rent free :lol
Simon owns this guy's soul.

Big facts

:applause:

[PP34Deuce]

Kobe and Jordan are better perimeter defenders from a traditional sense than Lebron.

Lebron is like Shaq at defense. He gets stats and makes huge plays when he feels like it but is not consistently desiring to shut down players.

His versatility as a 6'8 250 pound SF that can cover 1 to small ball 4's is what makes his defensive potential greater in a team sense.

It's the same reason people think Pippen was more valuable defensively than MJ. You can't beat high IQ bigger athletic players.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron isn’t better in any facet as a defender than Jordan.

Only differences is he could be considered more versatile because of his size. That doesn’t equate to better. Meaning he could play up and defend one extra position that Michael couldn’t, and that’s power forward or stretch forward.

Besides that Jordan was a better defender on ball, and off the ball.

In regards to Kobe versus LeBron on defense, Kobe was a superior lockdown man defender. LeBron was a better roamer or team defender because of his size and athleticism.

[PP34Deuce]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]LeBron isn

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'd say he's more versatile.
Than both Mike and Kobe? Ok. But it

[eliteballer]

What about LeBron without PED's?

[Vino24]

Not only did LeBron have a BIGGER impact defensively than Kobe and MJ but he was also BIGGER below the waist

[theballerFKA Ace]

:roll:
:roll: :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[LostCause]

DBPM such a great stat

Klay Thompson: -2.0 DBPM this season. -1.6 DBPM for his career
Kyrie Irving: 0.4 DBPM this season. -1.2 DBPM for his career

Great stat. Very telling. Much accurate

Do you morons need help finding actually DECENT ways to measure defense? LeBron doesnt shake out badly using them but using DBPM is monumentally stupid. DRPM and D-PIPM are much better, so is DRAPM over 3 or so years

DRTG is fine but only if you measure it relatively to league average during the time. Otherwise it makes little sense

[ImKobe]

DBPM such a great stat

Klay Thompson: -2.0 DBPM this season. -1.6 DBPM for his career
Kyrie Irving: 0.4 DBPM this season. -1.2 DBPM for his career

Great stat. Very telling. Much accurate

Do you morons need help finding actually DECENT ways to measure defense? LeBron doesnt shake out badly using them but using DBPM is monumentally stupid. DRPM and D-PIPM are much better, so is DRAPM over 3 or so years

DRTG is fine but only if you measure it relatively to league average during the time. Otherwise it makes little sense

You can't really measure defense like that because it's a team effort at the end of the day. Larry Bird's defensive metrics shit on Lebron/MJ/Kobe, was he really a better defensive player? I've never really found a reliable defensive-related stat that actually was accurate. Lebron's defensive metrics look good but those who watched him this season know he was terrible individually. Lakers' defense tanked when Zo got hurt and Lebron returned yet the numbers don't really show that, unless you look at how the team's overall defense suffered.

[Manny98]

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Than both Mike and Kobe? Ok. But it

[SpaceJam2]

Kawhi's 2019 playoff DRtg is at 103 so could he have the chance to join elite company if he can get it under 101 and win FMVP this year?

FMVP playoff runs w/ DRtg under 101

LeBron = x2 (only player in NBA history with more than one)
Wade = x1
Billups = x1

Jordan = x0 (0 for 6)

[3ball]

Versatility is one of the most valued traits you can have defensively

LeBron is much better defending in the post than Jordan and is a better team defender
Regarding versatility - MJ defends point guards more often than lebron defends PF's - and both guard sg/sf equally, so there's no versatility advantage

And there's no such thing as an individual playing team defense

You made that up

And Lebron's teams had many horrible defensive performances

[SpaceJam2]

I saw people arguing he was not better than MJ or Kobe which had me wondering how people didn't know that LeBro most definitely IS a better defensive player :wtf: So here it is, read it and weap


Regular season
Peak DRtg
LBJ = 97, 99, 100 (98.66 average)
MJ = 100, 100, 101 (100.33 average)
Goatbe = 98, 102, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 6.5; 5.7; 5.3 (5.83 average)
MJ = 6.2; 6.1; 5.6 (5.96 average)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 3.6; 2.8; 2.7 (3.03 average)
MJ = 2.7; 2.3; 1.8 (2.26 average)
Goatbe =1.7; .3; .3 (0.76 average)

Landslide win for LeBron. LBJ's peak was better in 2 of 3 categories as was his best 3 season average.


Playoffs


Peak DRtg
LBJ = 99, 99, 99 (99 average)
MJ = 101, 101, 101 (101 average)
Goatbe = 99, 101, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 1.6; 1.6; 1.5 (1.56 average *tie)
MJ = 1.7; 1.5; 1.5 (1.56 average*tie)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 5.8; 5.1; 4.3 (5.06 average)
MJ = 4.2; 3.8; 3.3 (3.76 average)
Goatbe =1.4; 1.2; .9 (1.16 average)

And again, another landslide win for LeBron. His peak was better in 2 of 3 categories, as was his best 3 season average.

I almost feel a bit silly posting this. Like, who didn't know this already? :confusedshrug:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbTmmZp3/big-if-u-dont-know.png

3ball?

[TheCorporation]

Not only did LeBron have a BIGGER impact defensively than Kobe and MJ but he was also BIGGER below the waist

The double down

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe and Jordan are better perimeter defenders from a traditional sense than Lebron.

Lebron is like Shaq at defense. He gets stats and makes huge plays when he feels like it but is not consistently desiring to shut down players.

His versatility as a 6'8 250 pound SF that can cover 1 to small ball 4's is what makes his defensive potential greater in a team sense.

It's the same reason people think Pippen was more valuable defensively than MJ. You can't beat high IQ bigger athletic players.

Both Jordan and Lebron are much better defenders than Lebron. Every advanced defensive metric seems to corroborate this.

[LeCroix]

Everytime this dude posts this it just reiterates just how bad Simon lives rent free :lol
Simon owns this guy's soul.

He does!!

[LeCroix]

I saw people arguing he was not better than MJ or Kobe which had me wondering how people didn't know that LeBro most definitely IS a better defensive player :wtf: So here it is, read it and weap


Regular season
Peak DRtg
LBJ = 97, 99, 100 (98.66 average)
MJ = 100, 100, 101 (100.33 average)
Goatbe = 98, 102, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 6.5; 5.7; 5.3 (5.83 average)
MJ = 6.2; 6.1; 5.6 (5.96 average)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 3.6; 2.8; 2.7 (3.03 average)
MJ = 2.7; 2.3; 1.8 (2.26 average)
Goatbe =1.7; .3; .3 (0.76 average)

Landslide win for LeBron. LBJ's peak was better in 2 of 3 categories as was his best 3 season average.


Playoffs


Peak DRtg
LBJ = 99, 99, 99 (99 average)
MJ = 101, 101, 101 (101 average)
Goatbe = 99, 101, 103 (101 average)

Peak DWS
LBJ = 1.6; 1.6; 1.5 (1.56 average *tie)
MJ = 1.7; 1.5; 1.5 (1.56 average*tie)
Goatbe = 4.5; 4.3; 4.0 (4.26 average)

Peak DPBM
LBJ = 5.8; 5.1; 4.3 (5.06 average)
MJ = 4.2; 3.8; 3.3 (3.76 average)
Goatbe =1.4; 1.2; .9 (1.16 average)

And again, another landslide win for LeBron. His peak was better in 2 of 3 categories, as was his best 3 season average.

I almost feel a bit silly posting this. Like, who didn't know this already? :confusedshrug:

https://i.postimg.cc/BbTmmZp3/big-if-u-dont-know.png

Ouch

[LostCause]

Terrible idea bumping this thread

When this thread was made the formula for some of those defensive metrics were really bad. They were restructured a few months ago and are much improved. So the points made by OP either aren’t accurate anymore or they actually favor Jordan now

[Axe]

You can see these spoiled trolls bumping last decade threads recently

[AirFederer]

Lol

The guy who gifted four fmvps to the guy he guarded :roll:

[Smoke117]

At his peak he is better than both, but Jordan is clearly more consistent throughout his career. Kobe is just one of the most overrated defensive players of all time and has single handily made the all defensive team mean absolute dirt when had a bunch of nods he isn’t close to of deserving.

[Smoke117]

1) Mike
2) Kobe
3) LeBron

Defensively ... obviously

Cringe. There is zero argument to be made for Kobe over LeBron defensively if you’ve ever watched them play. Clearly you want to bury LeBron as he’s a threat to Jordan overall.

[PeteVecseySwag]

Well, I’ve heard it all now. Are we talking about the same guy that has to have near rookies push him to close out on modern plumbers that drill jumpers in his eye? Same guy that consistently is lazy, misses rotations, then visibly tries to throw teammates under the bus?

[ImKobe]

Lol

The guy who gifted four fmvps to the guy he guarded :roll:

Never seen him shut down an opposing forward for a series. 23 y.o Durant averaged 30+ ppg on above 60%TS despite Lebron guarding him for most of that series. 3rd year Kawhi bukkaked all over him in the 3 straight games @ Miami in 2014. Paul George put up good numbers on him in 2013 & 2014 as well. Miami's defense was so good because Lebron, Wade and Bosh were all great help defenders and in their primes. Wade was the best on-ball defender with Battier being a close second.

[Whoah10115]

At his peak he is better than both, but Jordan is clearly more consistent throughout his career. Kobe is just one of the most overrated defensive players of all time and has single handily made the all defensive team mean absolute dirt when had a bunch of nods he isn’t close to of deserving.

He is absolutely not close to Michael Jordan defensively. Not. At. All. Jordan is in the Pippen tier.

I won't talk about Kobe because you won't be fair there, but Jordan is in a different tier than James. Not to mention that LeBron's peak is like two years.

[Smoke117]

He is absolutely not close to Michael Jordan defensively. Not. At. All. Jordan is in the Pippen tier.

I won't talk about Kobe because you won't be fair there, but Jordan is in a different tier than James. Not to mention that LeBron's peak is like two years.
Jordan is not all in the Pippen, Kawhi tier. He’s the bedt ever at sg, but he’s never anchored a defense like they have.

[Whoah10115]

Jordan is not all in the Pippen, Kawhi tier. He’s the bedt ever at sg, but he’s never anchored a defense like they have.


He's far ahead of Kawhi. In what way is Kawhi an anchoring defender? That was not his role in San Antonio, with the team they had and how they were set up. That was even less his role in Toronto, where his focus was more on the offense and he did a little bit more of picking and choosing his defensive intensity..which isn't to say he didn't try, but didn't take on the same responsibilities as in years past.

And he certainly isn't near Pippen, as good as he is. I give Pippen the advantage over Jordan, tho I think Jordan is the better 1v1 defender. But I think they match each other in the full-court press, and in help-defense on the perimeter. I give Jordan the advantage in chasing guys around, because Pippen was almost defending like a big man.

I give Pippen the advantage overall because he combined big man defensive play with the free safety style LeBron later adopted...I think Pippen could be a better defender than Kevin Garnett.

But LeBron is not as good as Jordan.

[Whoah10115]

Never seen him shut down an opposing forward for a series. 23 y.o Durant averaged 30+ ppg on above 60%TS despite Lebron guarding him for most of that series. 3rd year Kawhi bukkaked all over him in the 3 straight games @ Miami in 2014. Paul George put up good numbers on him in 2013 & 2014 as well. Miami's defense was so good because Lebron, Wade and Bosh were all great help defenders and in their primes. Wade was the best on-ball defender with Battier being a close second.

Can't defense be about his impact on the entire opposition offense?