Lebron's chance at GOAT ended in 2011

[StrongLurk]

After those finals. We know Lebron is a top 3-5 player of all time who HAD the talent to be GOAT. But his performance in 2011 ended that convo.

What he did 2012-2018 solidified his top 3-5 stature, but 2011 cannot be understated for someone with GOAT standards. Hell, even if the Heat won in 2011 because Wade and Bosh somehow averaged 30-40ppg each, it would not have a been ANY boon to Lebron's legacy because of his level of play.

Just like the 2000 finals do NOTHING for Kobe's all-time legacy due to him not playing at an all-time level.

[Ben Simmons 25]

Nope. It officially ended July 4th or July 7th, 2016. Depending on how you look at it.

He was never going to pass Russell, anyways.

[StrongLurk]

Nope. It officially ended July 4th or July 7th, 2016. Depending on how you look at it.

This is a low-IQ take. Level of play is all that matters.

A player who loses, but puts up 30/5/5 on great efficiency with good defense is better than a player who wins, but only put up 15/8/3 on good efficiency with good defense.

MJ is not GOAT because of 6 rings...he is GOAT because he had that highest, most consistent level of play.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Obviously. And it was buried in 2014. Grave was pissed on in 2017. And maggots have been eating the memory of that chance this entire season. Along with his move to yet another franchise, LA. The guy is a mercenary. Top 10 all-time, but he needs far too much help to be successful.

[ImKobe]

You're comparing prime Lebron to 21 y.o Kobe playing on one good leg?

[Ben Simmons 25]

Level of play isn't all that matters.

Awards and titles play a huge ****ing part in legacy.

You really think, to use an obvious example, that Kobe Bryant was 20-30+ spots on the all time list better than Tracy McGrady if you strip away all accomplishments and titles and just look at level of play? **** out of here with that bullshit. They were back and forth, neck and neck, as players at their peaks for multiple years.

You have to take everything into account. There is no simple answer. But I will tell you, accomplishments and titles matter a hell of a lot when we start evaluating hair splitting at the top.

If McGrady gets drafted by the Lakers and Kobe stays with Charlotte, you think their all time rankings are so drastically different in favor of Kobe still? Please eh, **** outta here with that bullshit.

[FKAri]

Level of play isn't all that matters.

Awards and titles play a huge ****ing part in legacy.

You really think, to use an obvious example, that Kobe Bryant was 20-30+ spots on the all time list better than Tracy McGrady? **** out of here with that bullshit. They were back and forth, neck and neck, as players at their peak for multiple years.

You have to take everything into account. There is no simple answer. But I will tell you, accomplishments and titles matter a hell of a lot when we start evaluating hair splitting at the top.

If McGrady gets drafted by the Lakers and Kobe stays with Charlotte, you think their all time rankings are so drastically different in favor of Kobe still? Please eh, **** outta here with that bullshit.
That's cool and I know people care about it but **** that shit. Give me the better player. I'll take Chris Paul. You can take Sam Jones.

[Ben Simmons 25]

That's cool and I know people care about it but **** that shit. Give me the better player. I'll take Chris Paul. You can take Sam Jones.

Terrible example. McGrady and Kobe were far closer in peak skill and effectiveness than Paul & Jones.

I didn't say titles/accomplishments are the only thing that matters. I said they matter a hell of a lot when considering all time ranking. And they do. And there's context to these things. There isn't a simple formula you can follow to tell you who deserves to be ranked where. You have to take everything into consideration about their level of play, circumstances, careers, etc...

But let's say that Kobe spends his career with a bum ass franchise and walks away with 0 titles, you really think he ends up much further ahead on the all time list of McGrady? Hell ****ing no. The only reason he'd even be further up would be longevity and that's literally it.

[StrongLurk]

Level of play isn't all that matters.

Awards and titles play a huge ****ing part in legacy.

You really think, to use an obvious example, that Kobe Bryant was 20-30+ spots on the all time list better than Tracy McGrady if you strip away all accomplishments and titles and just look at level of play? **** out of here with that bullshit. They were back and forth, neck and neck, as players at their peaks for multiple years.

You have to take everything into account. There is no simple answer. But I will tell you, accomplishments and titles matter a hell of a lot when we start evaluating hair splitting at the top.

If McGrady gets drafted by the Lakers and Kobe stays with Charlotte, you think their all time rankings are so drastically different in favor of Kobe still? Please eh, **** outta here with that bullshit.


Bro, T-Mac has 7 elite seasons...Kobe has 13. Over that span, T-Mac played 491 games while Kobe played 973.

That's why T-Mac isn't better than Kobe.

Longevity plays a role as well. I can't help if casuals rank Kobe highly because of 5 "rangz". For me, Kobe is the same guy if he had 2 rings or 4 rings. He's in the bottom half of the top 10 all time.

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's cool and I know people care about it but **** that shit. Give me the better player. I'll take Chris Paul. You can take Sam Jones.
Because that’s an apples to apples comparison.

What about comparing Chris Paul to Isaiah Thomas? Very comparable players and games. Who are you taking?

[Ben Simmons 25]

Bro, T-Mac has seven elite seasons...Kobe has 13. That's why T-Mac isn't better than Kobe.

Longevity plays a role as well. I can't help if casuals rank Kobe highly because of 5 "rangz". For me, Kobe is the same guy if he had 2 rings or 4 rings. He's in the bottom half of the top 10 all time.

Of course longevity matters.

Everything has to be taken into consideration. I'm done repeating myself. You guys literally just read what the **** you want to read and that's it. Oh well. I'll try again tomorrow.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bro, T-Mac has seven elite seasons...Kobe has 13. That's why T-Mac isn't better than Kobe.

Longevity plays a role as well. I can't help if casuals rank Kobe highly because of 5 "rangz". For me, Kobe is the same guy if he had 2 rings or 4 rings. He's in the bottom half of the top 10 all time.
Say what you want, if Kobe went ringless post Shaq, or hell, even if he had won once and had lost the 6/24 game I seriously doubt you'd have him in your top 10.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Say what you want, if Kobe went ringless post Shaq, or hell, even if he had one and lost the 6/24 game I seriously doubt you'd have him in your top 10.
I don

[StrongLurk]

Of course longevity matters.

Everything has to be taken into consideration. I'm done repeating myself. You guys literally just read what the **** you want to read and that's it. Oh well. I'll try again tomorrow.

You said awards/titles matter for a person's legacy...but also alluded to the fact the nba players don't have a ton of control over how good their team/franchise is...so why do you give awards/titles a ton of weight?

If we are judging individuals...then shouldn't we mostly ignore "team accomplishments"? If we are judging who the best team is...then you look at wins/losses.

[StrongLurk]

I don’t know bro, he would still have four rings.

And multiple MVP caliber seasons. 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009.

I do wonder how his legacy would be defined if Kevin Garnett never got hurt in 2009, and the Lakers faced that Celtics team three years in a row. Or if as you said, he lost that 6 for 24 game seven.

I've used Kobe a lot before for these types of discussions because of his unique career arc. He had the least amount of help during his peak (2006 and 2007), but had a ton of help early on in his career and at the end of his prime.

So his winning years are overrated to me but his losing years (peak) are a little underrated for me.

[TheCorporation]

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https://i.postimg.cc/jdgkyVFR/MJyikes.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

I've used Kobe a lot before for these types of discussions because of his unique career arc. He had the least amount of help during his peak (2006 and 2007), but had a ton of help early on in his career and at the end of his prime.

So his winning years are overrated to me but his losing years (peak) are a little underrated for me.
I can agree with that. He has an awkward career. For a superstar at least. That

[Dray n Klay]

Did Jordan's chance at GOAT end in 1986 then?

[FKAri]

Terrible example. McGrady and Kobe were far closer in peak skill and effectiveness than Paul & Jones.

I didn't say titles/accomplishments are the only thing that matters. I said they matter a hell of a lot when considering all time ranking. And they do. And there's context to these things. There isn't a simple formula you can follow to tell you who deserves to be ranked where. You have to take everything into consideration about their level of play, circumstances, careers, etc...

But let's say that Kobe spends his career with a bum ass franchise and walks away with 0 titles, you really think he ends up much further ahead on the all time list of McGrady? Hell ****ing no. The only reason he'd even be further up would be longevity and that's literally it.
I think we're in agreement. Just that you're talking about what people think and I'm arguing for what I and most likely you, think.

It's not Kobe's rings with Pau that put him over but the sustained excellence throughout different rosters and circumstances that proved that he was a better scorer and defender than TMac ever showed. TMac was close but Kobe was better. Maybe if TMac's career continued and he evolved into a better player (I doubt better than what Kobe showed) he'd be closer.

This is also why I rank Bird over Magic. Bird was just better to me. But Magic won 5 rings and wasn't set back by injuries to the extent Bird was and thus had some better years towards the end. But it doesn't factor in because Bird already proved a certain level to me. I just need the proof. Longevity and winning helps a lot but it's not required.


I can agree with that. He has an awkward career. For a superstar at least. That’s why it’s so much easier for people to say LeBron is both better, and greater than him. He didn’t have as dramatic dips in success team wise, or individually throughout his career.
I also rate Lebron over Kobe for similar reasons. Lebron's harder to build around than Kobe and joining Wade is a horrendous fit but I don't really hold that against him (though the fit thing is a factor). If you do put the pieces around Lebron (which isn't too hard anyway), he's more impactful than Kobe. But I don't really want to debate Kobe/Lebron. So agree to disagree to whoever wants to start that debate.

[ClipperRevival]

It's not just 2011. It was pre-determined at birth. LeBron certainly had the raw, physical tools to be on that MJ tier. But he lacked that killer will. That desire to destroy the opponent every time he stepped on the court. That's why 2011 happened. That's why 2010 vs Boston happened. That's why he didn't join the dunk contest when he said he would. That's why he did so many other things that made you cringe. He just wasn't a true killer. If he was, he would've been much closer to MJ. But he wasn't. That simple.

[TheCorporation]

It's not just 2011. It was pre-determined at birth. LeBron certainly had the raw, physical tools to be on that MJ tier. But he lacked that killer will. That desire to destroy the opponent every time he stepped on the court. That's why 2011 happened. That's why 2010 vs Boston happened. That's why he didn't join the dunk contest when he said he would. That's why he did so many other things that made you cringe. He just wasn't a true killer. If he was, he would've been much closer to MJ. But he wasn't. That simple.

Um

https://i.postimg.cc/zGZCX733/leadscorers.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MHhrZs2H/Top_5_game_sc.png

[SouBeachTalents]

It's not just 2011. It was pre-determined at birth. LeBron certainly had the raw, physical tools to be on that MJ tier. But he lacked that killer will. That desire to destroy the opponent every time he stepped on the court. That's why 2011 happened. That's why 2010 vs Boston happened. That's why he didn't join the dunk contest when he said he would. That's why he did so many other things that made you cringe. He just wasn't a true killer. If he was, he would've been much closer to MJ. But he wasn't. That simple.
LeBron was always so inconsistent with his approach to the end of games. Far too often he'd be content with being passive and not being involved. A big reason why I think he's been so fcking amazing in elimination games is, it forces him to go into survival mode and play very aggressively, which is why he always seems to have his highest scoring games with his season on the brink. It just never translated to him doing that on a regular basis

[FKAri]

It's not just 2011. It was pre-determined at birth. LeBron certainly had the raw, physical tools to be on that MJ tier. But he lacked that killer will. That desire to destroy the opponent every time he stepped on the court. That's why 2011 happened. That's why 2010 vs Boston happened. That's why he didn't join the dunk contest when he said he would. That's why he did so many other things that made you cringe. He just wasn't a true killer. If he was, he would've been much closer to MJ. But he wasn't. That simple.
His will is fine. One doesn't need to be a killer outwardly to be a killer on the court. There's many examples of this in other sports, even basketball. One can succeed with plenty of personality approaches. Lebron's problem is a natural scoring instinct. He doesn't have it. Nor does he have the skillset to overcome great defenses. When I say all this I ofcourse mean, relative to Jordan. Ofcourse he's a great scorer, very skilled, etc. But on that all-time level that is his missing piece. And it's not due to lack of effort. It's on a talent level.

[ClipperRevival]

LeBron was always so inconsistent with his approach to the end of games. Far too often he'd be content with being passive and not being involved. A big reason why I think he's been so fcking amazing in elimination games is, it forces him to go into survival mode and play very aggressively, which is why he always seems to have his highest scoring games with his season on the brink. It just never translated to him doing that on a regular basis

Yes sir.

[ClipperRevival]

His will is fine. One doesn't need to be a killer outwardly to be a killer on the court. There's many examples of this in other sports, even basketball. One can succeed with plenty of personality approaches. Lebron's problem is a natural scoring instinct. He doesn't have it. Nor does he have the skillset to overcome great defenses. When I say all this I ofcourse mean, relative to Jordan. Ofcourse he's a great scorer, very skilled, etc. But on that all-time level that is his missing piece. And it's not due to lack of effort. It's on a talent level.

True.

But he's had instances where you could clearly see he wanted none of the action, like 2010 vs Boston and 2011. But yes, you are so right. He just lacked the SKILL to consistently score in a grind it out, playoff serious, in half court sets. No mid-range game, no back to the basket game, no triple threat game, etc. Just fundamental stuff you need in playoff bball, something MJ mastered.

So yeah, it's a combo of both I would say. But great point.

[StrongLurk]

His will is fine. One doesn't need to be a killer outwardly to be a killer on the court. There's many examples of this in other sports, even basketball. One can succeed with plenty of personality approaches. Lebron's problem is a natural scoring instinct. He doesn't have it. Nor does he have the skillset to overcome great defenses. When I say all this I ofcourse mean, relative to Jordan. Ofcourse he's a great scorer, very skilled, etc. But on that all-time level that is his missing piece. And it's not due to lack of effort. It's on a talent level.

Wouldn't go that far, even if you are comparing to Jordan.

Lebron simply isn't as pure skilled a scorer as MJ or even Kobe...but the thing about basketball is size and athleticism count no matter what...not just skill.

Lebron has demolished tons of great defenses over his career. But yeah, Jordan is the greatest scorer ever because he had great scoring skills along with freak athleticism. Lebron simply has good scoring skills with freak athleticism.

Honestly, I think Kobe could have been as good as MJ if he had the same athleticism...of course guys like Curry would be GOAT if they were freak athletes.

[ClipperRevival]

Um

https://i.postimg.cc/zGZCX733/leadscorers.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MHhrZs2H/Top_5_game_sc.png

Sup Nick Wright. :yaohappy:

[FKAri]

Wouldn't go that far, even if you are comparing to Jordan.

Lebron simply isn't as pure skilled a scorer as MJ or even Kobe...but the thing about basketball is size and athleticism count no matter what...not just skill.

Lebron has demolished tons of great defenses over his career. But yeah, Jordan is the greatest scorer ever because he had great scoring skills along with freak athleticism. Lebron simply has good scoring skills with freak athleticism.

Honestly, I think Kobe could have been as good as MJ if he had the same athleticism...of course guys like Curry would be GOAT if they were freak athletes.
Lebron's skills aren't even suited to his body. He is so overwhelmingly athletic that it works. But Lebron's the type of dude who when he sees a 6'2'' PG on him will turn and try to blow by him. In fact he will try to blow by anyone. When it fails he will try to body his defender and get him off balance and use that room to blow by him. If that fails he will take a dribble and step to the side jumper. This is 80% of his iso offense from the top of the key which in and of itself is 80% of his iso starting point. In motion he's great. He's incredible. He's creative, has great touch, can go either direction. Can see the floor. Everything. But he needs to be on the run to do any of this. And for someone 6'8'' 260 that shouldn't be your primary mode of attack.

[TheCorporation]

Sup Nick Wright. :yaohappy:

These discussions can become a lot easier when you put aside your Jordan shoes and emotions and usual factual information.

It is what's known as an unbiased, pragmatic approach.

How many pairs of Jordan's do you own?

[sdot_thadon]

His will is fine. One doesn't need to be a killer outwardly to be a killer on the court. There's many examples of this in other sports, even basketball. One can succeed with plenty of personality approaches. Lebron's problem is a natural scoring instinct. He doesn't have it. Nor does he have the skillset to overcome great defenses. When I say all this I ofcourse mean, relative to Jordan. Ofcourse he's a great scorer, very skilled, etc. But on that all-time level that is his missing piece. And it's not due to lack of effort. It's on a talent level.
Great post, however his natural scoring instincts are fine. They just aren't primary. One of the biggest things people miss about Lebron, especially in regards to Mj is they play with 2 different minds. When I say that I'm no referring to the cookie cutter "killer instinct" bs fans of volume scorers lean on either. It's the mental approach to each moment on the floor. There are cerebral guys who sort of analyze and look for possibilities and then there's reactive players who see and attack. Not saying that cerebral guys don't attack or that reactive guys don't think. One can actually be both in the same game at times but the instinct is what you will do most.

Mj and Dream were the 2 best reactive players I've ever seen. They had speed and footwork advantages over pretty much anyone who tried to check them so they could just attack on the catch and adjust as needed. 2nd 3peat Mj was more cerebral, you could just see the difference in the thought process. Maybe because his athleticism was wanning or whatever it may be.

Lebron on the other hand was almost always thinking the game, analyzing what he saw. In that sense he viewed the game like a much inferior athlete but at times he could be devastating once he went reactive. This guy used to stand at the 3point line and blow by guys with a basic dribble regularly. Maybe the fact that he saw more sophisticated defenses necessitated the analysis or that's just how he was wired. But he's not the only great to think the game on the floor, maybe the best to ever play that way.

[ClipperRevival]

Great post, however his natural scoring instincts are fine. They just aren't primary. One of the biggest things people miss about Lebron, especially in regards to Mj is they play with 2 different minds. When I say that I'm no referring to the cookie cutter "killer instinct" bs fans of volume scorers lean on either. It's the mental approach to each moment on the floor. There are cerebral guys who sort of analyze and look for possibilities and then there's reactive players who see and attack. Not saying that cerebral guys don't attack or that reactive guys don't think. One can actually be both in the same game at times but the instinct is what you will do most.

Mj and Dream were the 2 best reactive players I've ever seen. They had speed and footwork advantages over pretty much anyone who tried to check them so they could just attack on the catch and adjust as needed. 2nd 3peat Mj was more cerebral, you could just see the difference in the thought process. Maybe because his athleticism was wanning or whatever it may be.

Lebron on the other hand was almost always thinking the game, analyzing what he saw. In that sense he viewed the game like a much inferior athlete but at times he could be devastating once he went reactive. This guy used to stand at the 3point line and blow by guys with a basic dribble regularly. Maybe the fact that he saw more sophisticated defenses necessitated the analysis or that's just how he was wired. But he's not the only great to think the game on the floor, maybe the best to ever play that way.

That's cute and all but when it comes down to it, when you're "the man" in a playoff series and you're facing a half court D that's set and you need to create a shot in the 4th, LeBron simply lacked the consistent SKILLS to create his own shot. It's that simple. You can talk about mentality or mindset or whatever you want but he lacked it.

He had so many flaws SKILL WISE. And that's why he wasn't near MJ. Like FaKari said, his bread & butter if he couldn't get past his man via a dribble drive was a step back jumper most of the time. That is NOT how you get buckets in half court sets. You should have more in your arsenal. Like a mid-range game, triple threat game, post game, etc. All SKILLS he lacked.

It wasn't just about lack of WILL for LeBron but a lack of SKILL too.

[Dray n Klay]

That's cute and all but when it comes down to it, when you're "the man" in a playoff series and you're facing a half court D that's set and you need to create a shot in the 4th, LeBron simply lacked the consistent SKILLS to create his own shot. It's that simple. You can talk about mentality or mindset or whatever you want but he lacked it.

He had so many flaws SKILL WISE. And that's why he wasn't near MJ. Like FaKari said, his bread & butter if he couldn't get past his man via a dribble drive was a step back jumper most of the time. That is NOT how you get buckets in half court sets. You should have more in your arsenal. Like a mid-range game, triple threat game, post game, etc. All SKILLS he lacked.

It wasn't just about lack of WILL for LeBron but a lack of SKILL too.

Yet all that skill and MJ STILL went 1-9?

[TheCorporation]

Yet all that skill and MJ STILL went 1-9?

He had the Killer Instinct to make sure they acquired Scottie Pippen :lol

[sdot_thadon]

That's cute and all but when it comes down to it, when you're "the man" in a playoff series and you're facing a half court D that's set and you need to create a shot in the 4th, LeBron simply lacked the consistent SKILLS to create his own shot. It's that simple. You can talk about mentality or mindset or whatever you want but he lacked it.

He had so many flaws SKILL WISE. And that's why he wasn't near MJ. Like FaKari said, his bread & butter if he couldn't get past his man via a dribble drive was a step back jumper most of the time. That is NOT how you get buckets in half court sets. You should have more in your arsenal. Like a mid-range game, triple threat game, post game, etc. All SKILLS he lacked.

It wasn't just about lack of WILL for LeBron but a lack of SKILL too.
Umm yeah, likewise that's cute and all but in Lebron's absolute prime none of what you just said was an issue. Sure as his athleticism declined slowly over the past few years he's rearranged how he attacks the game but what i said stands.

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's cute and all but when it comes down to it, when you're "the man" in a playoff series and you're facing a half court D that's set and you need to create a shot in the 4th, LeBron simply lacked the consistent SKILLS to create his own shot. It's that simple. You can talk about mentality or mindset or whatever you want but he lacked it.

He had so many flaws SKILL WISE. And that's why he wasn't near MJ. Like FaKari said, his bread & butter if he couldn't get past his man via a dribble drive was a step back jumper most of the time. That is NOT how you get buckets in half court sets. You should have more in your arsenal. Like a mid-range game, triple threat game, post game, etc. All SKILLS he lacked.

It wasn't just about lack of WILL for LeBron but a lack of SKILL too.
Bingo.

Not to mention dude is flat out wrong. Doc Rivers straight up said, LeBron didn

[Bawkish]

:lol at TheCorporation & Dray begging for attention

[Soundwave]

That's cute and all but when it comes down to it, when you're "the man" in a playoff series and you're facing a half court D that's set and you need to create a shot in the 4th, LeBron simply lacked the consistent SKILLS to create his own shot. It's that simple. You can talk about mentality or mindset or whatever you want but he lacked it.

He had so many flaws SKILL WISE. And that's why he wasn't near MJ. Like FaKari said, his bread & butter if he couldn't get past his man via a dribble drive was a step back jumper most of the time. That is NOT how you get buckets in half court sets. You should have more in your arsenal. Like a mid-range game, triple threat game, post game, etc. All SKILLS he lacked.

It wasn't just about lack of WILL for LeBron but a lack of SKILL too.

Yeah I'd agree with this. LeBron is a heckuva player but he isn't the most skilled guy by any means, his half court game lacks in a lot of ways and is at times shockingly limited. Foot work is also not exactly the greatest either.

It's not just him not having a "killer instinct" at times, a lot of it is he simply never bothered to develop a lot of his skills.

Too much ego, he didn't want to change the way he played.

[Celtics 1825]

I don't think that 2011 completely ended his chances at GOAT, but those finals as well as the 2010 ECSF left a black mark on his legacy that he hasn't been able to fully recover from. Since 2011 up until this year he's been amazing of course, but in order to be GOAT he would've to win at least 1 more title and not lose by a record margin twice. Him missing the playoffs this year certainly doesn't help either. However with all that said he's still top 5 absolutely.

[tpols]

Level of play isn't all that matters.

Awards and titles play a huge ****ing part in legacy.

You really think, to use an obvious example, that Kobe Bryant was 20-30+ spots on the all time list better than Tracy McGrady if you strip away all accomplishments and titles and just look at level of play? **** out of here with that bullshit. They were back and forth, neck and neck, as players at their peaks for multiple years.

You have to take everything into account. There is no simple answer. But I will tell you, accomplishments and titles matter a hell of a lot when we start evaluating hair splitting at the top.

If McGrady gets drafted by the Lakers and Kobe stays with Charlotte, you think their all time rankings are so drastically different in favor of Kobe still? Please eh, **** outta here with that bullshit.


Mcgrady was washed up by like '06, while Kobe was still peaking. Bad analogy.

[Manny98]

Jordan had a 2011 like chokejob against the Pistons in 89 so by OPs logic Jordans chance at surpassing Kareem ended in 1989

[Manny98]

I don't think that 2011 completely ended his chances at GOAT, but those finals as well as the 2010 ECSF left a black mark on his legacy that he hasn't been able to fully recover from. Since 2011 up until this year he's been amazing of course, but in order to be GOAT he would've to win at least 1 more title and not lose by a record margin twice. Him missing the playoffs this year certainly doesn't help either. However with all that said he's still top 5 absolutely.
Nah he redeemed himself with the most dominant 6 year run of any player ever from 2012-2017

2 MVPs
3 championships
6 finals appearances
DPOY (runner up but LeBron got screwed)
2 GOAT finals performances in 16 & 17
Had the greatest regular season of all time in 2013 (should have been unanimous MVP if it wasn't for that hater for voting Melo)
Ended Clevelands 50 year championship drought and slaying a 73 win team in the process

[SpaceJam2]

Nah he redeemed himself with the most dominant 6 year run of any player ever from 2012-2017

2 MVPs
3 championships
6 finals appearances
DPOY (runner up but LeBron got screwed)
2 GOAT finals performances in 16 & 17
Had the greatest regular season of all time in 2013 (should have been unanimous MVP if it wasn't for that hater for voting Melo)
Ended Clevelands 50 year championship drought and slaying a 73 win team in the process

:applause:

This 6-years alone is probably more impressive than anything Jordan did for his entire career, and that is saying a lot.

[FKAri]

:applause:

This 6-years alone is probably more impressive than anything Jordan did for his entire career, and that is saying a lot.
It was greater than Newton's run from '65 to '67 imo. :applause:

[StrongLurk]

I disagree with the 2010 Lebron comments. Him losing that series to the Celtics is exactly what should have happened. Lebron also performed below his standards the last 3 games of that series...but that isn't a major black mark on his legacy. Kobe also struggled mightily against the 08/10 Celtics as well, getting embarrassed in 08 and barely squeaking by in 2010, but his play wasn't top 10 of all time level.

2011 is the absolute black mark of Lebron's career. Heat should have won the series against the Mavs and would have if Lebron played to his usual standard.

[SouBeachTalents]

I disagree with the 2010 Lebron comments. Him losing that series to the Celtics is exactly what should have happened. Lebron also performed below his standards the last 3 games of that series...but that isn't a major black mark on his legacy. Kobe also struggled mightily against the 08/10 Celtics as well, getting embarrassed in 08 and barely squeaking by in 2010, but his play wasn't top 10 of all time level.

2011 is the absolute black mark of Lebron's career. Heat should have won the series against the Mavs and would have if Lebron played to his usual standard.
Only Game 5 against Boston was truly 2011 level, he underperformed in that series but it was nothing extraordinary, he honestly played worse in the '07 Finals and the first few games against Boston in '08.

2010 is not even close to the level of 2011, to place them as equals is ridiculous

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yeah I'd agree with this. LeBron is a heckuva player but he isn't the most skilled guy by any means, his half court game lacks in a lot of ways and is at times shockingly limited. Foot work is also not exactly the greatest either.

It's not just him not having a "killer instinct" at times, a lot of it is he simply never bothered to develop a lot of his skills.

Too much ego, he didn't want to change the way he played.
This ... he briefly was forced to add new elements from 2012 - 2014 but quickly once again went back to old habits when there was no Riley / Spo coaching him ... and he was given carte blanche to play his stat producing ball centric game.

[FKAri]

This ... he briefly was forced to add new elements from 2012 - 2014 but quickly once again went back to old habits when there was no Riley / Spo coaching him ... and he was given carte blanche to play his stat producing ball centric game.
I've posted a lot already in this thread. But I thought I'd cap it off with one last comment: You're retarded.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I've posted a lot already in this thread. But I thought I'd cap it off with one last comment: You're retarded.
Agree to disagree.

You’re the basketball wiz tho :applause:

[Gileraracer]

Nah he redeemed himself with the most dominant 6 year run of any player ever from 2012-2017


DPOY (runner up but LeBron got screwed)


:roll:


http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/1551797455788578.gif



:roll:

[SpaceJam2]

I've posted a lot already in this thread. But I thought I'd cap it off with one last comment: You're retarded.

:roll: :roll:

LeBron has the mostly highly developed, widest range of skills and some are saying he was stubborn in the development department.

The only thing he "sucks" at is free throws

Scoring: Elite
Passing: Elite
Rebounding: Elite
Ball-handling: Elite
Play-making: Elite
1 on-1 defense: Elite
Help-defense: Elite
Finishing at the rim: Elite
Using both hands: Elite
3-point shooting: Great
Post game: Good
Free throws: Need work

[superduper]

http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/1551797455788578.gif





:facepalm :facepalm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[SpaceJam2]

:roll:


http://i.freegifmaker.me/1/5/5/1/7/9/1551797455788578.gif



:roll:


LeBron probably could have won DPOY in '12 or '13 over Chandler or Gasol.

But yes, showing a post injury 2019 .gif sure makes sense in this context.

[SpaceJam2]

:facepalm :facepalm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Bron didn't want that poster :lol He probably felt you were bound to make three threads about it if he did.

[superduper]

Bron didn't want that poster :lol He probably felt you were bound to make three threads about it if he did.

I wouldn't be shocked one bit if Bran let his insecurities of the public perception of him affect his decisions on the court :oldlol:

[SpaceJam2]

I wouldn't be shocked one bit if Bran let his insecurities of the public perception of him affect his decisions on the court :oldlol:

Yep, just like he did with The Decision, going back to Cleveland, going to Los Angeles...Oh whoops. Nevermind :banana:

[superduper]

Yep, just like he did with The Decision, going back to Cleveland, going to Los Angeles...Oh whoops. Nevermind :banana:

Me: decisions on the court

SpaceDoofus2: *lists off court decisions*

[sdot_thadon]

It blows my mind that a thread packed with Mj stans can't form a more coherent thought than "killer instinct blah blah" It's almost as if the self proclaimed historians never watched the guy play better yet.....were 12 years old.:eek:

[bullettooth]

It blows my mind that a thread packed with Mj stans can't form a more coherent thought than "killer instinct blah blah" It's almost as if the self proclaimed historians never watched the guy play better yet.....were 12 years old.:eek:

Change your avatar. Your idol is a scrub, not a king.

[sdot_thadon]

Change your avatar. Your idol is a scrub, not a king.
I'm too old for idols brother, hope you are too.:(

Also in the future attack the post not the poster if at all possible sir.

[LeCola]

Another idea is "Was there even any chance in 2011? What was his chance after going Heat for chasing rings?"...

[AirFederer]

To me he was the goat until I began reading here.

Thanks ISH!

What an eyeopener facts are :eek:


My take now, all based on facts:

It (his case as the goat) never Even started.

Too stiff
No footwork
Very few moves
2007
Delonte
Stiff arm
Crab walk
Flops
Colludes
2011
Da real Lambo
Moar halp
No defense
Swept
Selfproclaimed
Playoff mode activated..oh wait

Sorry. :(