Defense is not "half the game" of basketball

[StrongLurk]

Let's think about this for the moment. While defense is clearly important, offense is more important on the NBA level.

With how good NBA players are at scoring, plus the rules of basketball, offensive is like the 3-point shot and defense is like a 2-point shot...clearly offensive has more of an impact.

This is why the best offensive players in the league are almost always considered the best players in general. Good offense beats good defense.

For defense to be truly "half the game", then teams should actually LOSE POINTS for missing shots. Maybe not a full two points...but imagine how much value defense would have if teams lost 1 point for every missed shot (lose no points for misses free throws however).

I'd guess teams would be scoring 60-70 points per game instead of 110 and DEFENSE would truly become "half the game". Imagine how much value elite defensive players would have.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

You ever watch the 2004 Pistons?

[tanibanana]

Defense is extremely overrated.. Look at the All Defensive team awardees for the past 2 decades, half are

[StrongLurk]

[QUOTE=tanibanana]Defense is extremely overrated.. Look at the All Defensive team awardees for the past 2 decades, half are

[hiphopanonymous]

Defense is half the game of basketball

- it's always a step behind because only the offensive player knows what they are going to do and when the defensive players are somewhat trying to persuade the offensive man to go a certain way or do a certain thing by overplaying sides and choosing how to handle screens and such but at the end of the day they are still reacting to the final move and thus are going to get scored on over the course of the game mostly more often than they are able to prevent the other player or team from scoring.

That doesn't mean it isn't half the game being played though. Just playing in rec games I notice new teams joining the league are often exposed the worst on the defensive end where some communication is key and new teams rarely talk. They are almost always getting blown out because they don't defend well in transition and their rotations suck in zone or they aren't calling out screens in man. They get obliterated. Offensive advantage or not you do have to put forward constant effort with some practiced refinement on defense or you get obliterated.

[LostCause]

The problem is the current NBA game makes playing real defense very hard. Lots of folks don't like watching defensive slugfests and players having to work for their points, just high scoring games, crazy shots and dunks

I'd say while it's not as important as scoring, especially in today's game, it's still very important

Rudy Gobert can't even make the AllStar team these days. I doubt a Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman would either in this climate

[FKAri]

The problem is the current NBA game makes playing real defense very hard. Lots of folks don't like watching defensive slugfests and players having to work for their points, just high scoring games, crazy shots and dunks


Defense is half the game of basketball

- it's always a step behind because only the offensive player knows what they are going to do and when the defensive players are somewhat trying to persuade the offensive man to go a certain way or do a certain thing by overplaying sides and choosing how to handle screens and such but at the end of the day they are still reacting to the final move and thus are going to get scored on over the course of the game mostly more often than they are able to prevent the other player or team from scoring.

That doesn't mean it isn't half the game being played though. Just playing in rec games I notice new teams joining the league are often exposed the worst on the defensive end where some communication is key and new teams rarely talk. They are almost always getting blown out because they don't defend well in transition and their rotations suck in zone or they aren't calling out screens in man. They get obliterated. Offensive advantage or not you do have to put forward constant effort with some practiced refinement on defense or you get obliterated.

I agree somewhat with all these.

Though, the thing to note is, the offense has the advantage of deciding who gets the ball. But there is only one ball. Also, as mentioned earlier, the defense can influence that somewhat but not nearly as much as the offense does in basketball. Because of this dynamic, for offense you need 1-2 exceptional offensive players before diminishing returns as they can have the ball in their hands. But the offense can choose where to attack and what to exploit. This is why the number of exceptional defensive players doesn't have diminishing returns until you get to all the 5 guys on the court. Therefore, good teams can become elite often by loading up on defenders to get even better. And the mantra for these teams becomes all about focusing on and improving their defense.

[hiphopanonymous]

I agree with this but even in the past offense was always more important than defense.
If the offense just inherently has the advantage - is it more important?

No it just inherently has the advantage it's still no more important than the other half of the possessions.

Look, teams plays every single game on both ends. It's 50/50. You spend 50% of the time playing defense. It's half as important.

Hell on offense at least you can CHOOSE when to take a rest, on defense you don't have a choice they could pack your side in a zone or feed the man you've been assigned and you have to work. On the offensive end you can just give the ball up and let someone else work while you catch your breath.

Dunno, I just don't buy that offense is "more important" - it's got the advantage of course but I don't think it's necessarily more important.

[FKAri]

If the offense just inherently has the advantage - is it more important?

No it just inherently has the advantage it's still no more important than the other half of the possessions.

Look, teams plays every single game on both ends. It's 50/50. You spend 50% of the time playing defense. It's half as important.

Hell on offense at least you can CHOOSE when to take a rest, on defense you don't have a choice they could pack your side in a zone or feed the man you've been assigned and you have to work. On the offensive end you can just give the ball up and let someone else work while you catch your breath.

Dunno, I just don't buy that offense is "more important" - it's got the advantage of course but I don't think it's necessarily more important.
See edit.

[hiphopanonymous]

The problem is the current NBA game makes playing real defense very hard. Lots of folks don't like watching defensive slugfests and players having to work for their points, just high scoring games, crazy shots and dunks

I'd say while it's not as important as scoring, especially in today's game, it's still very important

Rudy Gobert can't even make the AllStar team these days. I doubt a Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman would either in this climate
Yeah I think the NBA has really screwed up the balance of who has more advantages... it used to always be somewhat of an arms race but currently the NBA is like gift wrapping offense pretty much all advantages and I think it's supposed to be for casual fan appeal because the easiest play to recognize if you are new to the sport is watching that ball go through the hoop.

It's a shame because long time fans do recognize nuances like good defensive strategies and tricky offensive moves to get around good defensive strategies. Makes me want to pull my hair out when I see James Harden take 3 steps THEN hop back and the defender gently grazes his wrist and so not only is it a travel back when footwork and gathers were interpreted more strictly, it's also now a 4 point play because close out defensive hustle is now penalized harshly.

But still - I have a hunch if a team ever played even NBA rule basketball with the mentality that defense wasn't half the effort required of their skills and energy (regardless if the rules don't favor them) they'd get blown out by being out of parity with the other teams effort on the defensive end. The best teams always give effort to play good defense within the confines of whatever the rules allow



Also sidenote: Think about this for a second - a balanced game of basketball should be you miss about half the shots you take. Means the defense wins 50% of the time. The 24 second shot clock is why scores are 100 points - teams HAVE to shoot X number of times during a game. But the percentages are very telling as to how well the defense is played or is allowed to be played. Currently efficiency records are through the roof and being broken all the time. Parity of offense and defense is not great at NBA level right now IMHO.

[hiphopanonymous]

See edit.
Yeah I gotcha :cheers:

[hiphopanonymous]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

If you filter that list by "eFG%"

I'd bet you that would be a decent reflection of which side (offense or defense) had the most advantages at the given time.

Most of the high (more than 50 eFG%) games are recent, '10's and up. Most of the really abysmally low ones are back in the hatchet-man era's, way way back when people would undercut people for layups and knock your teeth out to put you at the free throw line and offensive players couldn't touch defensive players or dribble with anything other than downward motion so mobility and strength on offense wasn't allowed - very backwards vs today's version of the game

[nineiron]

OP is too stupid to own a computer

[r0drig0lac]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/biggums.png

[Prometheus]

OP I hope you aren't employed in a field which requires critical thinking. Your reasoning skills are very poor. Sorry, not trying to be mean. It's the truth.

[paksat]

nit picking idiot

[egokiller]

Current NBA allows minimal defense. Much easier to score than when MJ played. MJ in today's league is 47/8/9 all day.

"Defense is extremely overrated these days"

No shit....but at least try to do the minimum.

LeBron can't even manage to do that. :roll:

[TheCorporation]

Current NBA allows minimal defense. Much easier to score than when MJ played. MJ in today's league is 47/8/9 all day.

"Defense is extremely overrated these days"

No shit....but at least try to do the minimum.

LeBron can't even manage to do that. :roll:

Bro man, you got so triggered by 2016 that you went for a sex op transformation and made a new account.

Let that sink in.

[Celtics 1825]

Bro man, you got so triggered by 2016 that you went for a sex op transformation and made a new account.

Let that sink in.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Real Men Wear Green]

You won by outscoring the opposing team. That is achieved by both scoring points as well as preventing the other team from scoring. So yes, defense is half ther game.

But if we're just talking about how to become a star off the court offense is more important.

[305Baller]

defense will happen when someone wants to win. period.

basketball is about putting the ball in the hole. no other thing.

[StrongLurk]

You won by outscoring the opposing team. That is achieved by both scoring points as well as preventing the other team from scoring. So yes, defense is half ther game.

But if we're just talking about how to become a star off the court offense is more important.

Defense is not half of the "value" of the game...which is what people refer to when they make the statement "defense if half the game".

It might be semantics wise, but it's not true based on reality. Defense is only a relative limiter of offense.

Imagine losing half a point for every missed shot (none for free throws). Think about how that would actually put defense on an equal playing field with offense.

If making shots GAINS POINTS, then missing shots should have a minimum (reasonable) negative effect of losing points.

[brooks_thompson]

I look at defense as: are you cool with admitting you're only gonna contribute to a, say, 5% drop in FG% (the other team is still gonna score some no matter what), and are you able to trust your teammates and be trusted by them to play as hard as it takes to drop that 5%. Close games are won at the margins, and that's why 'they say' defense wins championships.

[SpaceJam2]

Bro man, you got so triggered by 2016 that you went for a sex op transformation and made a new account.

Let that sink in.

:eek: :eek: :roll: :roll:

[Spurs m8]

[QUOTE=tanibanana]Defense is extremely overrated.. Look at the All Defensive team awardees for the past 2 decades, half are

[SpaceJam2]

Defense is not half of the "value" of the game...which is what people refer to when they make the statement "defense if half the game".

It might be semantics wise, but it's not true based on reality. Defense is only a relative limiter of offense.

Imagine losing half a point for every missed shot (none for free throws). Think about how that would actually put defense on an equal playing field with offense.

If making shots GAINS POINTS, then missing shots should have a minimum (reasonable) negative effect of losing points.

So then when you shoot and don't score and then I shoot and score that isn't a net +2 :biggums:

Team A: Scores 2 points
Team B: Misses shot (GOOD DEFENSE!)

Team A: 2
Team B: 0

Good defense = +2

Are we understood?

[kennethgriffen]

playoff defense is why james harden goes from an all time great to an all time chump every year


its also why lebrons #1 seeds in 09 and 10 failed miserably

its also why the 2008 celtics won and the 2010 lakers overcame them

its also why the 2004 pistons won

its also why the lakers were so dominant with kobe, shaq, horry, fox, grant, harper

its why the spurs won all of their titles

its why the mavs won in 2011 with chandler, marion, kidd doing work

its why the warriors were so dominant before durant got there




of course defense isn't really needed on a big 4/5 squad or to win regular season games when nobody on either side is giving much effort defensively.. it makes guys like derozan, pg13, harden and many more seem great. but when the playoffs roll around you'll see what happens when that switch gets flipped


defense 99% of the time wins championships. its not half of the game. its most of the game

[Rico2016]

Bro man, you got so triggered by 2016 that you went for a sex op transformation and made a new account.

Let that sink in.

Goodness

:roll: :roll:

[Bronbron23]

I couldn't disagree more. How many points do you think teams would score if no one played defence? 300? 400? It is literally half the game. You pretty much play defence just as much as you play offence. Defence isn't sexy so offence gets more love and attention but defence is just as important in every sport

[StrongLurk]

So then when you shoot and don't score and then I shoot and score that isn't a net +2 :biggums:

Team A: Scores 2 points
Team B: Misses shot (GOOD DEFENSE!)

Team A: 2
Team B: 0

Good defense = +2

Are we understood?

You are saying what I've already said...defense is simply a relative limiter to offense.

It's not an unstoppable force meets an immovable object...it's an unstoppable force that meets and pretty movable object.

Good defense should not mean 0 like in your team B example...it should mean -.5 points (as an example). So the score should be 2 to -.5 (which seems a little silly since it's the beginning of the game..but it's very normal to see a score 40-38 and see teams lose a small amount of points for missed shots.

Why do you think the best players in the league are the best offensive players? Because offense clearly has more value in the context of basketball than defense...so defense value wise is not half of the game...more like a third.

[superduper]

If there was no such thing as defense everyone would shoot 100% FG.

League average FG is 46%.

Defense is actually MORE than half the game.

Peace

[StrongLurk]

If there was no such thing as defense everyone would shoot 100% FG.

League average FG is 46%.

Defense is actually MORE than half the game.

Peace

Whew...this is a response from someone who struggles with critical thinking. Not surprised it's from supdup.

[superduper]

Whew...this is a response from someone who struggles with critical thinking. Not surprised it's from supdup.

Prove my logic wrong

[StrongLurk]

Prove my logic wrong

Players miss wide open dunks and layups...so no, no one would score 100% of the time.

Just looking at FG% does not account for different values of shots, you know free throws, 2-pointers, 3-pointers? Is 46% the same value for those types of shots?

So yeah, your statements do not equate to defense being more than half of the game.

That's why players like Steve Nash have more value than Bruce Bowen's of the NBA.

[Bronbron23]

Players miss wide open dunks and layups...so no, no one would score 100% of the time.

Just looking at FG% does not account for different values of shots, you know free throws, 2-pointers, 3-pointers? Is 46% the same value for those types of shots?

So yeah, your statements do not equate to defense being more than half of the game.

That's why players like Steve Nash have more value than Bruce Bowen's of the NBA.
That's a poor example. Your comparing a 2 time MVP to Bruce Bowen. A better comparison would be to a player that's been a multiple dpoy who's offence is as bad as Nash's defence. I would argue that rodman and Wallace were easily more valuable than Nash was. Defence is much harder to quantify impact wise because there's no stat for intimidating someone from driving to the basket. There's no stat for making someone miss a shot.

[Bronbron23]

Players miss wide open dunks and layups...so no, no one would score 100% of the time.

Just looking at FG% does not account for different values of shots, you know free throws, 2-pointers, 3-pointers? Is 46% the same value for those types of shots?

So yeah, your statements do not equate to defense being more than half of the game.

That's why players like Steve Nash have more value than Bruce Bowen's of the NBA.
Do you think harden has more impact on a playoff series than a prime been Wallace did?

[StrongLurk]

Do you think harden has more impact on a playoff series than a prime been Wallace did?

Which team would you take (primes)?

Team A
- Steve Nash
- James Harden
- Carmelo
- Kevin Love
- Karl Anthony-Towns

Team B
- Patrick Beverly
- Bruce Bowen
- Andre Roberson
- Ben Wallace
- Rudy Gobert

Team A wins every time.

[hiphopanonymous]

Which team would you take (primes)?

Team A
- Steve Nash
- James Harden
- Carmelo
- Kevin Love
- Karl Anthony-Towns

Team B
- Patrick Beverly
- Bruce Bowen
- Andre Roberson
- Ben Wallace
- Rudy Gobert

Team A wins every time.
Nice try now how bout using players that play on both ends equally:

Jerry West
MJ
Pippen or Kawhi
Duncan or K. Malone
Wilt, Jabbar or Olajuwon

... gonna crush either of the first two teams. It isn

[StrongLurk]

[QUOTE=hiphopanonymous]Nice try now how bout using players that play on both ends equally:

Jerry West
MJ
Pippen or Kawhi
Duncan or K. Malone
Wilt, Jabbar or Olajuwon

... gonna crush either of the first two teams. It isn

[hiphopanonymous]

Waste of a post, thanks for stating the obvious that BOTH offense and defense have SOME value. Geez, what's next, are you going to tell me that coaching has value too?
Do you play basketball? Serious question

[StrongLurk]

Do you play basketball? Serious question

Played seriously up all the way through high school varsity (nothing crazy).

Tell me, do you think defense would become more important if missed shots (not free throws) equated to -.5 points?

[Bronbron23]

Which team would you take (primes)?

Team A
- Steve Nash
- James Harden
- Carmelo
- Kevin Love
- Karl Anthony-Towns

Team B
- Patrick Beverly
- Bruce Bowen
- Andre Roberson
- Ben Wallace
- Rudy Gobert

Team A wins every time. I don't know if they do to be honest. They would win more games that the other team would though for sure but either way it's irrelevant.
Team b is still playing defence. You have 2 guys Kat and love who are both good defensive rebounders also.

Again if you had a game with no defence the score would be 400 to 412. How can you seriously argue that defence isn't half the game?

[SpaceJam2]

Prove my logic wrong

People still miss wide open shots...Idiot.


Wow that was easy.

[egokiller]

OP I hope you aren't employed in a field which requires critical thinking. Your reasoning skills are very poor. Sorry, not trying to be mean. It's the truth.

:roll:

[tpols]

what you just said made absolutely no sense.

you will be awarded no points. and...

may god have mercy on your soul.

[hiphopanonymous]

Played seriously up all the way through high school varsity (nothing crazy).

Tell me, do you think defense would become more important if missed shots (not free throws) equated to -.5 points?
Your calculations of net risk and reward is missing a beat on this one:

Think of it like this, how good are NBA players at shooting uncontested shots, ever watch that? Even 3 pointers look like a layup line to them. Steph can make what, 94 of 100 with nobody guarding him?

That’s near as makes no difference a FG% of 100... this is what hypothetically not playing any defense would create.

By playing defense you actually create enough disruption even at the NBA level with current banned defensive rules to force OVER 50% of the opponents shots from the field to miss.

Think about this real hard. If you’re normally making 19 for 20 or 20 for 20 with zero defense but then a defense cause you to go 8, 9 or 10 for 20 how is it not worth at least 50% of the entire game.

The only reason I repeat the only reason game scores are always so high regardless of how great a defense is is because of a thing called a shot clock. Which was designed to force a shot to go up thus keeping the game always appearing to be up tempo offensively but if you miss half the shots you’d normally make in an empty gym the defense is literally half the game

Making sense?

[NuggetsFan]

Team defense is half the game of basketball, but with NBA fans everything is so individually focused that it all becomes about 1 individual player's defense. Individual defense isn't half the of the game. It's about coaching, schemes, the other 4 players on the floor. Absolutely there has been a % of players that can elevate a defense, and while they absolutely impact the game to a high degree on that end everybody else usually gets underrated around them.

A player will get forced left, and someone will miss a rotation, and he'll hit the shot yet the guy who forces him left will get blamed by some fans despite it being how the coach wanted the player handled.

Great individual offense will always beat great individual defense, and on defense you need far more team work and everyone to pull there part. 1 or 2 guys can drop an entire defense.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not going to shit on you, because at least you attempt to talk hoops. Unlike Jeff/Simon and the other headcases.

Think about what you're saying though. Now visualize everything that goes into a 5v5 game.

Damn near everything is split between offense and defense (and remember...defense includes things like rebounding, fouls and "traps").

Eventually scoring takes precedence. Whoever has more points will win, derp. But that doesn't mean we simply stop giving effort on defense or give less than max effort (in a utopia here...players obviously get tired). Again, its still technically HALF the game.

[Bronbron23]

Team defense is half the game of basketball, but with NBA fans everything is so individually focused that it all becomes about 1 individual player's defense. Individual defense isn't half the of the game. It's about coaching, schemes, the other 4 players on the floor. Absolutely there has been a % of players that can elevate a defense, and while they absolutely impact the game to a high degree on that end everybody else usually gets underrated around them.

A player will get forced left, and someone will miss a rotation, and he'll hit the shot yet the guy who forces him left will get blamed by some fans despite it being how the coach wanted the player handled.

Great individual offense will always beat great individual defense, and on defense you need far more team work and everyone to pull there part. 1 or 2 guys can drop an entire defense.
Pretty much this

[tanibanana]

Defense is overrated at all...I get you've never played a game of ball in your life, dont respect competition and also love these cheap, 140 points scored a game.

Are you new to ball?

[egokiller]

Team defense is half the game of basketball, but with NBA fans everything is so individually focused that it all becomes about 1 individual player's defense. Individual defense isn't half the of the game. It's about coaching, schemes, the other 4 players on the floor. Absolutely there has been a % of players that can elevate a defense, and while they absolutely impact the game to a high degree on that end everybody else usually gets underrated around them.

A player will get forced left, and someone will miss a rotation, and he'll hit the shot yet the guy who forces him left will get blamed by some fans despite it being how the coach wanted the player handled.

Great individual offense will always beat great individual defense, and on defense you need far more team work and everyone to pull there part. 1 or 2 guys can drop an entire defense.

Which is why rec ball is so fun. The chances of the other team playing proper help defense is next to zero so the team that can shoot better always wins. Hell you only need 1 guy that can shoot well to win and the other team isn't helping on D. The game being more heavily weighted on the offensive side from an individual standpoint is the funnest part about playing the game and anyone who plays will know this.

[SamuraiSWISH]

[QUOTE=hiphopanonymous]Nice try now how bout using players that play on both ends equally:

Jerry West
MJ
Pippen or Kawhi
Duncan or K. Malone
Wilt, Jabbar or Olajuwon

... gonna crush either of the first two teams. It isn

[StrongLurk]

what you just said made absolutely no sense.

you will be awarded no points. and...

may god have mercy on your soul.

:lol Great movie.

Appreciate most of everyone's opinions/discussion, ISH needs some new fuking topics.

[BigShotBob]

Team defense is far more important than individual defense just like team offense is more important than individual offense (iso/hero ball).

[hiphopanonymous]

:lol Great movie.

Appreciate most of everyone's opinions/discussion, ISH needs some new fuking topics.
co-signed, good topic choice you pulled everyone away from the typical stan posturing for a moment :cheers: