MJ made Phil Jackson

[3ball]

MJ was the goat candidate in 1990 and Phil was the first-time, nobody coach

MJ eventually (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IBZH4nICAE4&t=24m28s) accepted the triangle and the rest is history

If he'd rejected the triangle, no one would know who Phil is, and the triangle would never be used again.. :confusedshrug:
.

[Vino24]

MJ was the goat candidate in 1990 and Phil was the first-time, nobody coach

MJ eventually (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IBZH4nICAE4&t=24m28s) accepted the triangle and the rest is history

If he'd rejected the triangle, no one would know who Phil is.. :confusedshrug:
.
Uh no. People would know who Phil is. MJ was 1-9 before Phil turned this stat padding loser's career around. Also you can take any competent sg/pg at the time and put them in the triangle and have success. Phil won 55 games without Jordan. Jordan never won 55 games without Phil :eek:

[Vino24]

Phil still has 5 rings without Jordan :roll:

[305Baller]

phil made kobe

[3ball]

Phil still has 5 rings without Jordan :roll:
Phil wouldn't be candidate for the Lakers job if he hadn't won rings with the bulls first

This is obvious.. if Phil hadn't won with MJ first (because MJ accepted the triangle), then he wouldn't have had a coaching future

[Manny98]

What was MJ doing before Phil?

Getting his cheeks busted in the 1st round every single year :roll:

MJ ain't shit without PJ

[3ball]

What was MJ doing before Phil?




Nearly making the Finals as a 6 seed in 1989


https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-25-2019/ln3-fC.gif


You simply forget that MJ had 2 good years under Collins, despite zero help...

Collins took the Pistons 6 games in the 89' ECF, and Phil only went 7 the next season despite an improved cast.

Phil just continued the natural progression that Collins was already doing..

Phil only gets credit for preventing the team from imploding after a few rings like most teams do.. Although MJ wasn't standing for immaturity, lower work ethic or things that tear teams apart either, so Phil's value is simply overblown
.

[tamaraw08]

MJ was the goat candidate in 1990 and Phil was the first-time, nobody coach

MJ eventually (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IBZH4nICAE4&t=24m28s) accepted the triangle and the rest is history

If he'd rejected the triangle, no one would know who Phil is.. :confusedshrug:
.

MJ also made
1. Kevin Loughery
2. Stan Albeck.
3. Doug Collins.
4. Gar Heard.
5. Leonard Hamilton
6. Doug Collins again.
them collect their personal belongings, wondered what they did wrong then look for other jobs
:facepalm

[tamaraw08]

Nearly making the Finals as a 6 seed in 1989


https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-25-2019/ln3-fC.gif


You simply forget that MJ had 2 good years under Collins, despite zero help...

Collins took the Pistons 6 games in 89' ECF, and Phil only took them 7 in 90' despite an improved cast.

Phil just continued the natural progression that Collins was already doing..

Phil only gets credit for preventing the team from imploding after a few rings like most teams do
.
yup, Collins was so good MJ didn't bother to hire Phil in Washington.
Under Collins in Washington, 21st in DRTG, 13th in ORTG '01
The following year they IMPROVED TO 18TH DRTG AND 21ST in ORTG. :rolleyes:
NOW tell me, how valuable is Phil in MJ's career? What was the Bulls record again when MJ decided to play baseball? Did they crumble losing their best player?
What is so interesting was Kobe loves to copy MJ, also didn't feel he needed Phil, Jerry Buss agreed so they hired Rudy T. Kobe realized the mistake then before the coming hard schedule, sent Rudy packing, citing emotional/mental stress.
Phil comes back after a year, coaching the great Smush Parker and Kwame Brown in the starting five to 45 wins.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan was a ringless loser until Phil showed up

[3ball]

MJ also made

1. Kevin Loughery
2. Stan Albeck.
3. Doug Collins.


Nearly all players lose their first couple years unless their team was already good before they got there - so mj's first couple seasons under Loughery/Albeck don't count any more than other players' first few bad seasons

And MJ did great under Collins starting in his 3rd healthy season (88'), and nearly made the Finals in 89'.. Phil did the same in 90' (ecf loss) despite an improved cast

[3ball]

yup, Collins was so good MJ didn't bother to hire Phil in Washington.
Under Collins in Washington, 21st in DRTG, 13th in ORTG '01
The following year they IMPROVED TO 18TH DRTG AND 21ST in ORTG. :rolleyes:
NOW tell me, how valuable is Phil in MJ's career? What was the Bulls record again when MJ decided to play baseball? Did they crumble losing their best player?
What is so interesting was Kobe loves to copy MJ, also didn't feel he needed Phil, Jerry Buss agreed so they hired Rudy T. Kobe realized the mistake then before the coming hard schedule, sent Rudy packing, citing emotional/mental stress.
Phil comes back after a year, coaching the great Smush Parker and Kwame Brown in the starting five to 45 wins.
^^^ Your stats are wrong - ur lying


01' WIZARDS WITHOUT MJ:. 21st offense.. 29th defense
02' WIZARDS.... WITH... MJ:. 13th offense.. 21st defense


So MJ improved the Wizards on both ends and got 18 more wins (despite missing 20 games with injury).. compare to the 19' Lakers, who were worse in all areas.. :facepalm ..:oldlol:

Btw, the 94' Bulls were still a decent team because they'd developed goat teamwork and brand of ball, as required to build any dynasty.

But the exact same roster from 1993 only won 47 games in 1989, and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 - so it was a lottery cast that developed the goat teamwork and brand of ball required to be a dynasty..

but this development could never have happened under phil if MJ didn't agree to run the triangle.. :hammerhead:

.

[Vino24]

Mods...

[3ball]

Mods...
Seriously, get Tamaraw out of here for lying about stats itt

Good thing I corrected his stats in the last post

I also set him straight about how the exact same roster from 1993 only won 47 games in 1989, and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 - so it was a lottery cast that simply developed the goat teamwork and brand of ball required to be a dynasty..

but this development could never have happened under phil if MJ didn't agree to run the triangle..

[Wally450]

Scottie Pippen made MJ.

[And1AllDay]

Uh no. People would know who Phil is. MJ was 1-9 before Phil turned this stat padding loser's career around. Also you can take any competent sg/pg at the time and put them in the triangle and have success. Phil won 55 games without Jordan. Jordan never won 55 games without Phil :eek:

:eek:


Wow


:eek:


Wow


:eek:

[And1AllDay]

What was MJ doing before Phil?

Getting his cheeks busted in the 1st round every single year :roll:

MJ ain't shit without PJ

:oldlol: :roll:

3ball went full tard mode daym man

[sdot_thadon]

Damn 3ball, maybe it's time for a break on Mj threads? You've got quite a streak going of being obliterated on page one of each thread, that's the message board equivalent of a 1st rd exit. Quit making Mj look bad.:lol

[3ball]

Damn 3ball, maybe it's time for a break on Mj threads? You've got quite a streak going of being obliterated on page one of each thread, that's the message board equivalent of a 1st rd exit. Quit making Mj look bad.:lol
Who was the goat candidate in 1990 and who was the 1st time, nobody coach - MJ or Phil?

That's too much truth for you guys to respond normally... Pure deflections, acting, and overall betaness in the responses

That's how it's been lately.. this season made you guys accept that MJ is goat

So I'll repeat the historical facts confirmed itt.. the exact same roster from 1993 only won 47 games in 1989, and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 - so it was a lottery cast that simply developed the goat teamwork and brand of ball required to be a dynasty..

but this development could never have happened under phil if MJ didn't agree to run the triangle..

Phil would be David Blatt if MJ rejected the triangle.. :confusedshrug:

now carry on with the deflections and acting
.

[And1AllDay]

Damn 3ball, maybe it's time for a break on Mj threads? You've got quite a streak going of being obliterated on page one of each thread, that's the message board equivalent of a 1st rd exit. Quit making Mj look bad.:lol
3ball been about 1-9 in his thread wins lately :sleeping :oldlol:

[3ball]

3ball been about 1-9 in his thread wins lately :sleeping :oldlol:
Who was the goat candidate in 1990 and who was the 1st time, nobody coach - MJ or Phil?

That's too much truth for you guys to respond normally... Pure deflections, acting, and overall betaness in the responses

That's how it's been lately.. this season made you guys accept that MJ is goat

So I'll repeat the historical facts confirmed itt.. the exact same roster from 1993 only won 47 games in 1989, and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 - so it was a lottery cast that simply developed the goat teamwork and brand of ball required to be a dynasty..

but this development could never have happened under phil if MJ didn't agree to run the triangle..

Phil would be David Blatt if MJ rejected the triangle.. :confusedshrug:

now carry on with the deflections and acting

[sdot_thadon]

It's too much truth for you guys to respond normally

Pure deflections, acting, and overall betaness in the responses

That's how it's been lately.. this season made you guys accept that MJ is goat

But I'll repeat the historical facts... the exact same roster from 1993 only won 47 games in 1989, and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 - so it was a lottery cast that simply developed the goat teamwork and brand of ball required to be a dynasty..

but this development could never have happened under phil if MJ didn't agree to run the triangle..

Phil would be David blatt if MJ rejected him.. :confusedshrug:

now carry on with the deflections and acting
Sure that fairytale sounds nice in be like mike pj's with a bowl of Wheaties and bottle of Gatorade sitting in front of you....but.....that's just how you see it.

Phil was the one to make Mj embrace the style of play that led to winning. And no, I'm not saying Phil made Mj because Mj had to do it on the floor, but I'm also not idiotic enough to say Mj made Phil when it's beyond clear that Phil played his part in the team's success.

Phil harnessed Mj's talents and ego perfectly which was maybe his greatest trait as a coach, pushing his guys' buttons and manipulating them to manage egos. He's the best "superstar coach" we've seen. So quit with the low hanging fruit threads where these young guys embarrass you by the end of the 1st page.

[tpols]

Lets put it this way... you put MJ on any team, they have ring potential in a couple years or less. Put phil on any team? he might be a poor mans don nelson or rick carlisle for all we know. He never won anything without the best.

[3ball]

Sure that fairytale sound nice in be like mike pj's with a bowl of Wheaties and bottle of Gatorade sitting in front of you....but.....that's just how you see it.

Phil was the one to make Mj embrace the style of play that led to winning. And no, I'm not saying Phil made Mj because Mj had to do it on the floor, but I'm also not idiotic enough to say Mj made Phil when it's beyond clear that Phil played his part in the team's success.

Phil harnessed Mj's talents and ego perfectly which was maybe his greatest trait as a coach, pushing his guy's buttons and manipulating them to manage egos. He's the best "superstar coach" we've seen. So quit with the low hanging fruit threads where these young guys embarrass you by the end of the 1st page.
MJ almost made the Finals in 89' without Phil, and Phil lost the ecf again in 1990

Phil just happened to come along when mj's teammates were getting good enough for the team to win

The triangle doesn't even matter - it's a failed offense except when top 10 players agreed to use it.. and it wouldn't be available for Shaq/Kobe if MJ hadn't made it famous first..
.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ almost made the Finals in 89' without Phil, and Phil lost in the ecf again in 1990

Phil just happened to come along when mj's teammates were getting good enough for the team to win

The triangle doesn't even matter - it's a failed offense except when top 10 players agreed to use it.. and it wouldn't be available for Shaq/Kobe if MJ hadn't made it famous first..

It's funny that you're going against the logic on this one... what's more likely - that Jeanie's one time fling and the Knicks' nightmare has the Midas touch, or simply goat timing...
Phil's strength most definitely wasn't as a Gm, shit look at Mj's tenure as one neither were even decent at it. But Phil handles personalities like no other, his x's and o's don't even comapre to his people management skills in the least. Mj didn't have any shred of success until Phil took the helm, you can call it timing if you choose but then you'd be ignoring an entire team philosophy shift that came with Phil. He was there under Collins as an assistant, so he saw what wasn't working and that Collins struggled to get Mj to play team ball. It worked, they won and the rest is history. As great as Mj is the Bulls don't have a dynasty without Phil.

[sdot_thadon]

And you're wrong in 90 Mj wasn't a goat candidate he was a great superstar that hadn't validated his ticket yet with a title.There were questions externally and even internally with the Bulls whether or not they could win with him. They entertained a trade offer from the clippers for Mj, good thing Krause decided against it.

[egokiller]

Who was the goat candidate in 1990 and who was the 1st time, nobody coach - MJ or Phil?

That's too much truth for you guys to respond normally... Pure deflections, acting, and overall betaness in the responses

That's how it's been lately.. this season made you guys accept that MJ is goat

So I'll repeat the historical facts confirmed itt.. the exact same roster from 1993 only won 47 games in 1989, and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 - so it was a lottery cast that simply developed the goat teamwork and brand of ball required to be a dynasty..

but this development could never have happened under phil if MJ didn't agree to run the triangle..

Phil would be David Blatt if MJ rejected the triangle.. :confusedshrug:

now carry on with the deflections and acting
.

It's the best they can come up with. You already won the moment the thread was made.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lets put it this way... you put MJ on any team, they have ring potential in a couple years or less. Put phil on any team? he might be a poor mans don nelson or rick carlisle for all we know. He never won anything without the best.
And the best never won anything without him

[3ball]

Phil's strength most definitely wasn't as a Gm, shit look at Mj's tenure as one neither were even decent at it. But Phil handles personalities like no other, his x's and o's don't even comapre to his people management skills in the least. Mj didn't have any shred of success until Phil took the helm, you can call it timing if you choose but then you'd be ignoring an entire team philosophy shift that came with Phil. He was there under Collins as an assistant, so he saw what wasn't working and that Collins struggled to get Mj to play team ball. It worked, they won and the rest is history. As great as Mj is the Bulls don't have a dynasty without Phil.
Personality managing isn't what MJ needed to win a ring - it might've been what was needed to win the 5th or 6th ring, but not the first few

Also, MJ didn't have an all-star teammate until Phil.. Getting a minimal level of help was the biggest factor in mj winning, not Phil - again, MJ almost made the Finals with nothing in 89'

And that was MJ's success before Phil - he almost made the Finals with a 6 seed in 89' - every statistical evidence we have says this was a much more unlikely run than lebron in 07'.. overall, the 88' and 89' runs compare to lebron's 06' and 07' runs, albiet with a less decorated and experienced cast and better stats

[tpols]

And the best never won anything without him


What happened when phil went to the knicks?

[3ball]

And the best never won anything without him


the best players can win with any coach - the only factor is how much help they need under that coach - and if a player has the skill to play within a system, then they won't need as much help because systems maximize role players

So what's more likely - that Jeanie's one time fling and the Knicks' nightmare has the Midas touch, or simply great timing?

It's intuitive - MJ was the goat candidate in 90' and Phil was the 1st timer - MJ made phil.. MJ was the one scoring 34 a game without dominating the ball so the triangle could work (for a change).. the bulls' success with the triangle made it credible for future use with other stars (Shaq/Kobe)
.

[SouBeachTalents]

What happened when phil went to the knicks?
Continued success?

[3ball]

Continued success?
Phil lost in the 1st round twice in 06' and 07'

The triangle is simply shit without one of the best post presences in the game.. :confusedshrug:

This demonstrates that Phil's winning is based mostly on the goat talent he coached, and preceding reputation from coaching said goats (i.e. the bulls' success with the triangle made it credible for future use with other stars.. aka MJ made Phil)
.

[Bronbron23]

MJ was the goat candidate in 1990 and Phil was the first-time, nobody coach

MJ eventually (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IBZH4nICAE4&t=24m28s) accepted the triangle and the rest is history

If he'd rejected the triangle, no one would know who Phil is, and the triangle would never be used again.. :confusedshrug:
.
They made each other dude. Mike doesn't go 6 for 6 without Phil.

[tpols]

Continued success?


He bombed them out lol... Seriously, what good coach couldn't win with mj & pippen or shaq & Kobe? Does pat riley lose with jordan and Scottie while Phil wins with the Knicks? Does adelmen lose with shaq and Kobe while Phil wins with the kings?

Phil isn't Popovich or Belicheck... He borrowed another guys system for his entire coaching career, and coached teams that featured more talent than every opposing coach he faced.

[SpaceJam2]

He bombed them out lol... Seriously, what good coach couldn't win with mj & pippen or shaq & Kobe? Does pat riley lose with jordan and Scottie while Phil wins with the Knicks? Does adelmen lose with shaq and Kobe while Phil wins with the kings?

Phil isn't Popovich or Belicheck... He borrowed another guys system for his entire coaching career, and coached teams that featured more talent than every opposing coach he faced.

Are you going to give Phil Jackson no credit for being able to manage the many different egos he has, for the countless number of years he has, while maintaining ultimate success and 13 total championships?

[tpols]

Are you going to give Phil Jackson no credit for being able to manage the many different egos he has, for the countless number of years he has, while maintaining ultimate success and 13 total championships?


He didn't manage any egos until los angeles... That's a quick six ring headstart. Scottie was a very willing number two. Shaq Kobe literally split because of ego issues so apparently he wasn't very good at it at all. Melo and bran shit on him as well. 3ball is right...he would've been blatt in other situations. He didn't have any situation superseding talent at all, pure hindsight ranking.

[SpaceJam2]

He didn't manage any egos until los angeles... That's a quick six ring headstart. Scottie was a very willing number two. Shaq Kobe literally split because of ego issues so apparently he wasn't very good at it at all. Melo and bran shit on him as well. 3ball is right...he would've been blatt in other situations. He didn't have any situation superseding talent at all, pure hindsight ranking.

Jordan and Rodman don't have egos??? :eek:

[SouBeachTalents]

He bombed them out lol... Seriously, what good coach couldn't win with mj & pippen or shaq & Kobe? Does pat riley lose with jordan and Scottie while Phil wins with the Knicks? Does adelmen lose with shaq and Kobe while Phil wins with the kings?

Phil isn't Popovich or Belicheck... He borrowed another guys system for his entire coaching career, and coached teams that featured more talent than every opposing coach he faced.
Phil coached an absurd amount of talent, I don't disagree with most of what you just said. But I don't know how many coaches could've maxed out that talent the way that he did. When he had his star players for a full season, dude won NINE straight championships, 3 separate 3peats. He absolutely deserves credit for that absurd amount of sustained success

[tpols]

Rodman is just crazy. You can't control that, just live with it. He had no ego about basketball, his on ball involvement or shot quantity...Quite the opposite, he cherished doing all the things nobody else wanted to do. Phil controlled these guys about as much as he controlled Metta world peace when he knocked harden into another dimension.

You can't control crazy, it has nothing to do with ego.

There were no ego issues on those bull teams because Jordan was like 5x the offensive player any of his teammates were.

:roll:

Pippen was pissed when phil had Toni kukoc taking the last shot in a playoff game...he wasn't saying shit when Michael was taking them because he knew his place.

[3ball]

But I don't know how many coaches could've maxed out that talent the way that he did. When he had his star players for a full season, dude won NINE straight championships, 3 separate 3peats.


That's just how good the talent was - the goat winning is a function of the goat talent

MJ is goat in part because he won more than any player since the ABA merger.. Ditto Shaq and his 3 fmvp's

Any coach would win a lot with those guys assuming they had a minimal cast of some kind

Phil simply joined these guys 7-8 years into their career when they were already on the cusp

[Vino24]

PJ won titles implementing the triangle system with his superstars shooting damn near under 40%. PJ is the GOAT :bowdown:

[3ball]

PJ won titles implementing the triangle system with his superstars shooting damn near under 40%. PJ is the GOAT :bowdown:
Damn-near under 40%???... :biggums:

Pippen was way under 40%... 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals.. good thing the bulls had the goat scorer to make up the gap

[tpols]

Phil coached an absurd amount of talent, I don't disagree with most of what you just said. But I don't know how many coaches could've maxed out that talent the way that he did. When he had his star players for a full season, dude won NINE straight championships, 3 separate 3peats. He absolutely deserves credit for that absurd amount of sustained success


why would you credit that to phil moreso than his players?

He didnt lead the same players to 9 rings... they were all different. He isnt like popovich turning water to wine with 40 yo's and rooks.. he was exchanging prime jordan, the GOAT, for shaq, the MDE... and then for Kobe a combination of both... cmon man.

:facepalm

[Vino24]

Damn-near under 40%???... :biggums:

Pippen was way under 40%... 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals
Holy shit. Sorry no other coach could win with that. PJ worked miracles :eek:

[3ball]

He didn't manage any egos until los angeles... That's a quick six ring headstart. Scottie was a very willing number two. Shaq Kobe literally split because of ego issues so apparently he wasn't very good at it at all. Melo and bran shit on him as well. 3ball is right...he would've been blatt in other situations. He didn't have any situation superseding talent at all, pure hindsight ranking.






Rodman is just crazy. You can't control that, just live with it. He had no ego about basketball, his on ball involvement or shot quantity...Quite the opposite, he cherished doing all the things nobody else wanted to do. Phil controlled these guys about as much as he controlled Metta world peace when he knocked harden into another dimension.

You can't control crazy, it has nothing to do with ego.

There were no ego issues on those bull teams because Jordan was like 5x the offensive player any of his teammates were.

:roll:

Pippen was pissed when phil had Toni kukoc taking the last shot in a playoff game...he wasn't saying shit when Michael was taking them because he knew his place.


Better than I could've said it.. sdot beaten soundly

[King Baron]

He didn't manage any egos until los angeles... That's a quick six ring headstart. Scottie was a very willing number two. Shaq Kobe literally split because of ego issues so apparently he wasn't very good at it at all. Melo and bran shit on him as well. 3ball is right...he would've been blatt in other situations. He didn't have any situation superseding talent at all, pure hindsight ranking.

What are you talking about? Have you completely forgotten the Kukoc/Pippen incident? How about the infamous Kerr punch? Cartwright saying he'd break legs if he was ever spoken that way again? Feels like there's people here that didn't even watch basketball in the 90s at all.

[tpols]

What are you talking about? Have you completely forgotten the Kukoc/Pippen incident? How about the infamous Kerr punch? Cartwright saying he'd break legs if he was ever spoken that way again? Feels like there's people here that didn't even watch basketball in the 90s at all.



i mentioned that in my posts.

how could i have forgotten something i just mentioned?

:hammerhead:


That was actually a mistake by phil. Even if kukoc had a better chance at hitting the shot, phil ruined the ego heirarchy with that decision. You dont get to tote that on your side of the argument. :lol

Bulls couldve cut kerr and cartwright, signed some other role players and been in the same spot. They were completely replaceable.

[King Baron]

So now winning the game is a mistake? Phil made the right decision, you don't pander. That's why players don't care at all about coaches anymore. It seems you want them to have no authority to make the right call. Eleven rings coaching, two as a player. Multiple dynasties, his record for making the right call speaks for itself.

The way you even mention just cutting Kerr and Cartwright shows the modern 'everyone's disposable' mentality. Phil made things work.

[SpaceJam2]

PJ won titles implementing the triangle system with his superstars shooting damn near under 40%. PJ is the GOAT :bowdown:

49 of 50 and 46 of 50 performances by 40% Chucker Goat Fraudon

[SpaceJam2]

So now winning the game is a mistake? Phil made the right decision, you don't pander. That's why players don't care at all about coaches anymore. It seems you want them to have no authority to make the right call. Eleven rings coaching, two as a player. Multiple dynasties, his record for making the right call speaks for itself.

The way you even mention just cutting Kerr and Cartwright shows the modern 'everyone's disposable' mentality. Phil made things work.

100% :applause:

[Duncan21formvp]

As for Phil Jackson, well he became a head coach in 1990 and wasn't really a known commodity until the Bulls won titles. In fact, had Phil Jackson never won in Chicago, the Lakers from 2000-2002 would never had won because that team had too many issues that only Phil could solve and he was probably the only coach that the Lakers would listen to at that point.


Phil was not a great coach before he came to the Bulls. He had not even had a job in the NBA. He was a CBA coach and Krause took a chance on him. It would be one thing if he was proven coach in the league like by the time he went to the Lakers. The same for Riley he wasn't proven in the NBA as a coach with the Lakers, you can use that logic when he went to the Knicks and Heat though.

[Duncan21formvp]

Scottie Pippen made MJ.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909

[quote]

[tamaraw08]

^^^ Your stats are wrong - ur lying


01' WIZARDS WITHOUT MJ:. 21st offense.. 29th defense
02' WIZARDS.... WITH... MJ:. 13th offense.. 21st defense


So MJ improved the Wizards on both ends and got 18 more wins (despite missing 20 games with injury).. compare to the 19' Lakers, who were worse in all areas.. :facepalm ..:oldlol:

Btw, the 94' Bulls were still a decent team because they'd developed goat teamwork and brand of ball, as required to build any dynasty.

But the exact same roster from 1993 only won 47 games in 1989, and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 - so it was a lottery cast that developed the goat teamwork and brand of ball required to be a dynasty..

but this development could never have happened under phil if MJ didn't agree to run the triangle.. :hammerhead:

.

huh, I am lying,
00-01 Wizards were bad, yes yes yes. Who was listed as the EXECUTIVE WHO PUT THE TEAM TOGETHER? DING DING DING, Michael Jordan, handpicked the players and selected Leonard Hamilton as HC, So tell me, did he made Lenny...Lose:roll:
Check the link. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2001.html
THE FOLLOWING YEAR after MJ's first year with the Wizards, they GOT WORST... STAY WITH ME 3BALL,
2002-03, 21ST IN ORTG, 18TH IN DRTG, CLICK THE LINK BELOW
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2003.html
now, Did MJ make Doug Collins... Lose?:facepalm
MJ plus Doug, Jerry Stackhouse, Laetner, Hughes (averaged 17pts/game for Washington) = 37 wins.
Pippen+Phil + rookie Kukoc= 55 wins. You are right again, ding ding ding, they developed great teamwork, coached by .....Phil Jackson, not MJ, get it 3ball?
Phil comes back and coach the terrible Smush Parker and the very limited Kwame with Kobe in LA...= 45 wins, 8th best in ORTG.
I am not saying Doug is stupid but he failed to bring MJ anywhere with better lineups. and oh BTW, WHYTHE FREAK ARE YOU BRING THE '19 Laker into this specific topic... you know how MJ made Phil. :rolleyes: .

[SpaceJam2]

huh, I am lying,
00-01 Wizards were bad, yes yes yes. Who was listed as the EXECUTIVE WHO PUT THE TEAM TOGETHER? DING DING DING, Michael Jordan, handpicked the players and selected Leonard Hamilton as HC, So tell me, did he made Lenny...Lose:roll:
Check the link. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2001.html
THE FOLLOWING YEAR after MJ's first year with the Wizards, they GOT WORST... STAY WITH ME 3BALL,
2002-03, 21ST IN ORTG, 18TH IN DRTG, CLICK THE LINK BELOW
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2003.html
now, Did MJ make Doug Collins... Lose?:facepalm
MJ plus Doug, Jerry Stackhouse, Laetner, Hughes (averaged 17pts/game for Washington) = 37 wins.
Pippen+Phil + rookie Kukoc= 55 wins. You are right again, ding ding ding, they developed great teamwork, coached by .....Phil Jackson, not MJ, get it 3ball?
Phil comes back and coach the terrible Smush Parker and the very limited Kwame with Kobe in LA...= 45 wins, 8th best in ORTG.
I am not saying Doug is stupid but he failed to bring MJ anywhere with better lineups. and oh BTW, WHYTHE FREAK ARE YOU BRING THE '19 Laker into this specific topic... you know how MJ made Phil. :rolleyes: .

https://media2.giphy.com/media/l0IycQmt79g9XzOWQ/giphy.gif

[SpaceJam2]

Phil would be David Blatt if MJ rejected the triangle

http://blog.finishline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/50Cent_MELO_Phil_really2_.gif

[Bawkish]

So if PJax made MJ, by Bron stans logic, also means that Spoelstra also made Lebron

[Hey Yo]

Damn-near under 40%???... :biggums:

Pippen was way under 40%... 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals.. good thing the bulls had the goat scorer to make up the gap
"MJ made Pippen!!!"

[SpaceJam2]

"MJ made Pippen!!!"

:lol 3ball did this to himself :lol

[Phoenix]

Uh no. People would know who Phil is. MJ was 1-9 before Phil turned this stat padding loser's career around. Also you can take any competent sg/pg at the time and put them in the triangle and have success. Phil won 55 games without Jordan. Jordan never won 55 games without Phil :eek:

Actually MJ had led the Bulls to series wins( Cleveland in 88 and 89, Knicks in 89) with Doug Collins as coach before Phil joined the team for the 90 season. So you're factually incorrect, whether this was a troll( which I'm sure it is), or you simply didn't know and talking out of your ass( also quite likely the case), or some combination of the two( the most likely scenario).

[SpaceJam2]

Actually MJ had led the Bulls to series wins in 88( Cleveland in 88 and 89, Knicks in 89) with Doug Collins as coach before Phil joined the team for the 90 season. So you're factually incorrect, whether this was a troll( which I'm sure it is), or you simply didn't know and talking out of your ass( also quite likely the case).

1-9
No Pip, No Chip
No PJax, no sack

[Phoenix]

1-9
No Pip, No Chip
No PJax, no sack

1-9 up to the 86-87 season. 87-88, beat Cleveland. 88-89 beat Cleveland and Knicks. Doug Collins was head coach those years.

Not opinions to be argued.

[sdot_thadon]

He didn't manage any egos until los angeles... That's a quick six ring headstart. Scottie was a very willing number two. Shaq Kobe literally split because of ego issues so apparently he wasn't very good at it at all. Melo and bran shit on him as well. 3ball is right...he would've been blatt in other situations. He didn't have any situation superseding talent at all, pure hindsight ranking.
Thoroughly incorrect. He has plenty of books out that will tell you what happened. He most definitely managed egos, beyond a shadow of doubt. Nobody on the Bulls was happy about shot distribution even throughout their 1st championship season. Everyone on the team already has knew Mj was great and was the engine to get them there but were still wanting their own time as well. Mj was worried about stats and scoring titles when Phil took over. All those problems were minimized by Phil running the team.

[Phoenix]

The reality of the dynamics that brought that Bulls dynasty together( who is the only team I've ever 'stanned' in 30 years of watching NBA) comprised of its various parts, player, coach, management, are a bit too nuanced for this board to objectively discuss, because most people here are more interested in bullshit hottakes and justifying their own opinion. They aren't interested in the other side's view.

[SpaceJam2]

The reality of the dynamics that brought that Bulls dynasty together( who is the only team I've ever 'stanned' in 30 years of watching NBA) comprised of its various parts, player, coach, management, are a bit too nuanced for this board to objectively discuss, because most people here are more interested in bullshit hottakes and justifying their own opinion. They aren't interested in the other side's view.


Translation: Take it easy there, 2ball

[3ball]

Thoroughly incorrect. He has plenty of books out that will tell you what happened. He most definitely managed egos, beyond a shadow of doubt. Nobody on the Bulls was happy about shot distribution even throughout their 1st championship season. Everyone on the team already has knew Mj was great and was the engine to get them there but were still wanting their own time as well. Mj was worried about stats and scoring titles when Phil took over. All those problems were minimized by Phil running the team.
Pippen achieved his career high alongside Mike each year from his rookie year in 88' through 1992.. Ditto grant .

So ur a liar and simply making things up because you weren't there to watch.. pathetic

The bulls were a very young team when they won in 91, and guys like Pippen/Grant weren't in their prime yet..the last thing anyone was doing was worrying about shot distribution, especially considering they were growing by leaps and bounds every year and achieving new career highs

Ur just a liar dude
.

[Phoenix]

Translation: Take it easy there, 2ball

Translation: you're an inbred c*nt.

[SpaceJam2]

Translation: you're an inbred c*nt.

Are you okay baby girl?

[Phoenix]

Are you okay baby girl?

I'm great. What about you, bitch?

[Manny98]

MJ is a loser outside of PJs system :roll:

1/9 + missing the playoffs twice :roll:

If you look at it MJ is basically a glorified system player

[3ball]

MJ is a loser outside of PJs system :roll:

1/9 + missing the playoffs twice :roll:

If you look at it MJ is basically a glorified system player
baby pippen and grant went 6 games with the 89' champs, so they were going to win in another year or two regardless

And MJ would've won the ring in 89' if he had 90' Pippen to get past the Pistons, and the Lakers were injured in those Finals.. so easy work if pippen was just 1 year older

[And1AllDay]

So you telling me a guy that was 1-9 then gets Pippen and Jackson and wins is gonna say they didn not help him :coleman: I think I seen it all now :coleman:

[And1AllDay]

MJ is a loser outside of PJs system :roll:

1/9 + missing the playoffs twice :roll:

If you look at it MJ is basically a glorified system player

i n c o m i n g


A n o t h e r

M
A
N
N
Y

BOMB

[DaHeezy]

I seriously wouldn't doubt it if OP also thought MJ made the 2018 Chicago Bears

[3ball]

I seriously wouldn't doubt it if OP also thought MJ made the 2018 Chicago Bears
Honestly, only a literal dumbass thinks MJ didn't make Phil

The historical record speaks for itself, but MJ haters defy normal logic to reduce him

In 1990, Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach, while MJ was the goat candidate and already 2 wins from the Finals without Phil.. Phil simply benefitted from a team that was already on the cusp with serious upward trajectory.

If MJ decides he doesn't want the triangle, it's over.. but MJ decided to fit his game into arguably the strictest, least ball-dominant offense ever - it's actually a wonderful demonstration of why he's the goat scorer, outside of his massive ppg edge on everyone in history

But carry on with your ignorance bruh. Just understand that's what it is - ignorance

[DaHeezy]

Honestly, only a literal dumbass thinks MJ didn't make Phil

The historical record speaks for itself, but MJ haters defy normal logic to reduce him

In 1990, Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach, while MJ was the goat candidate and already 2 wins from the Finals without Phil.. Phil simply benefitted from a team that was already on the cusp with serious upward trajectory.

If MJ decides he doesn't want the triangle, it's over.. but MJ decided to fit his game into arguably the strictest, least ball-dominant offense ever - it's actually a wonderful demonstration of why he's the goat scorer, outside of his massive ppg edge on everyone in history

But carry on with your ignorance bruh. Just understand that's what it is - ignorance

The only argument ever needed is the 93-94 Bulls.

But carry on with your ignorance

[sdot_thadon]

So ur a liar and simply making things up because you weren't there to watch.. pathetic

The bulls were a very young team when they won in 91, and guys like Pippen/Grant weren't in their prime yet..the last thing anyone was doing was worrying about shot distribution, especially considering they were growing by leaps and bounds every year and achieving new career highs
Ur just a liar dude
.

oh really?

[QUOTE=Jordan Rules]Pippen also had his contract on his mind, and after his near holdout he had decided he needed to produce statistics, for that

[sdot_thadon]

More insight on Jackson's job

John Paxson on the.....1991 season to that point
[QUOTE=Jordan Rules]

[And1AllDay]

oh really?



Mj's main man Charles Oakley....before Phil was coach


Horace Grant


The Bulls bench


Pippen on the All Star team


Grant again


The Bulls entire bench rotation


Bill Cartwright


The man himself
Yikes so 3 ball lies and gets caught time after time

[3ball]

The only argument ever needed is the 93-94 Bulls.

But carry on with your ignorance


The playoff cut was 45 games in 1989, so the 47-win bulls would've missed the playoffs without MJ

But the 89' lottery cast was the exact same roster as the 1993 three-peat team - the bulls simply developed the goat teamwork and brand of ball needed to build a dynasty

So the 94' bulls weren't an ordinary team - the defending, 3-peat champs won 55 because they already built the goat teamwork and brand of ball required of all dynasties

Dynasties learn to play great basketball and are great TEAMS - they aren't based purely on talent and fall apart when they lose a talent.

And many other teams win by playing great basketball/teamwork - see the 19' Clippers

But lebron's teams are purely talent-based - maybe if he developed the teamwork and brand of ball to 3-peat, his teams would be decent without him

[3ball]

Yikes so 3 ball lies and gets caught time after time
Have any of you ever played varsity, D1, or pros?.. Every developing or veteran team has squabbles about how to play the best brand of ball - look at the Warriors this year

But the results and stats and speak for themselves - the bulls won, while the stats proved that teammates played to capacity next to mj

pippen wasn't some secret 25 ppg scorer in a former life like Love or Bosh, and paxson wasn't some 20-pt guy... Pippen was a 20-pt player, while paxson was a 12-pt player - and that's what they got alongside MJ.. ditto the rest of the cast

But if you think the bulls were a toxic environment like lebron's teams, than that elevates MJ more, since he persevered for 6/6... Otoh, lebron let's the toxicity crumble his team and he leaves the franchise in shambles after failing to ring most years

Of course, the bulls were nowhere near the toxic environment of lebron's teams and had the best dynasty ever, outside of Russell dominating an 8-team league in the 60's.. the results speak for themselves
.

[Vino24]

Have any of you ever played varsity, D1, or pros?.. Every developing or veteran team has squabbles about how to play the best brand of ball - look at the Warriors this year

But the results and stats and speak for themselves - the bulls won, while the stats proved that teammates played to capacity next to mj

pippen wasn't some secret 25 ppg scorer in a former life like Love or Bosh, and paxson wasn't some 20-pt guy... Pippen was a 20-pt player, while paxson was a 12-pt player - and that's what they got alongside MJ.. ditto the rest of the cast

But if you think the bulls were a toxic environment like lebron's teams, than that elevates MJ more, since he persevered for 6/6... Otoh, lebron let's the toxicity crumble his team and he leaves the franchise in shambles after failing to ring most years

Of course, the bulls were nowhere near the toxic environment of lebron's teams and had the best dynasty ever, outside of Russell dominating an 8-team league in the 60's.. the results speak for themselves
.
None of us have and neither have you. Next.

[sdot_thadon]

1st I was like:


The bulls were a very young team when they won in 91, and guys like Pippen/Grant weren't in their prime yet..the last thing anyone was doing was worrying about shot distribution, especially considering they were growing by leaps and bounds every year and achieving new career highs.

Now I'm like:


Have any of you ever played varsity, D1, or pros?.. Every developing or veteran team has squabbles about how to play the best brand of ball - look at the Warriors this year

But I'm the liar here?:pimp:

[3ball]

None of us have and neither have you. Next.
Ok buddy.. :kobe: :roll:

[Vino24]

Ok buddy.. :kobe: :roll:
you are trying to discredit PJ. The man won fvcking 11 titles as a coach. You are fvcking retarded stfu.

[Rico2016]

you are trying to discredit PJ. The man won fvcking 11 titles as a coach. You are fvcking retarded stfu.

:lol :bowdown: :roll:

[3ball]

1st I was like:



Now I'm like:



But I'm the liar here?:pimp:
It's irrelevant - the stuff you posted has nothing to do with whether MJ made Phil or vice versa.
.

[Rico2016]

Have any of you ever played varsity, D1, or pros?.. Every developing or veteran team has squabbles about how to play the best brand of ball - look at the Warriors this year

But the results and stats and speak for themselves - the bulls won, while the stats proved that teammates played to capacity next to mj

pippen wasn't some secret 25 ppg scorer in a former life like Love or Bosh, and paxson wasn't some 20-pt guy... Pippen was a 20-pt player, while paxson was a 12-pt player - and that's what they got alongside MJ.. ditto the rest of the cast

But if you think the bulls were a toxic environment like lebron's teams, than that elevates MJ more, since he persevered for 6/6... Otoh, lebron let's the toxicity crumble his team and he leaves the franchise in shambles after failing to ring most years

Of course, the bulls were nowhere near the toxic environment of lebron's teams and had the best dynasty ever, outside of Russell dominating an 8-team league in the 60's.. the results speak for themselves
.

You're insane dude

Goal posts moved again

[3ball]

You're insane dude

Goal posts moved again
You guys keep moving them for me - I don't even know what they are anymore

But we do know that Phil took over a conference finals team and proceeded to lose in the conference finals again

So what was the difference in 91'? Pippen was finally good enough... Turns out MJ needs a 17.8 ppg, 1-time all-star to win.. sounds like Middleton without the 3's/floor-spacing

[SpaceJam2]

Have any of you ever played varsity, D1, or pros?.. Every developing or veteran team has squabbles about how to play the best brand of ball - look at the Warriors this year

But the results and stats and speak for themselves - the bulls won, while the stats proved that teammates played to capacity next to mj

pippen wasn't some secret 25 ppg scorer in a former life like Love or Bosh, and paxson wasn't some 20-pt guy... Pippen was a 20-pt player, while paxson was a 12-pt player - and that's what they got alongside MJ.. ditto the rest of the cast

But if you think the bulls were a toxic environment like lebron's teams, than that elevates MJ more, since he persevered for 6/6... Otoh, lebron let's the toxicity crumble his team and he leaves the franchise in shambles after failing to ring most years

Of course, the bulls were nowhere near the toxic environment of lebron's teams and had the best dynasty ever, outside of Russell dominating an 8-team league in the 60's.. the results speak for themselves
.

Deflect much :confusedshrug:

[Vino24]

You guys keep moving them for me - I don't even know what they are anymore

But we do know that Phil took over a conference finals team and proceeded to lose in the conference finals again

So what was the difference in 91'? Pippen was finally good enough... Turns out MJ needs a 17.8 ppg, 1-time all-star to win.. sounds like Middleton without the 3's/floor-spacing
Jordan had that in 86 except better :eek:

[3ball]

Jordan had that in 86 except better :eek:
It's funny because the 91' bulls beat the b2b champs just like the 14' spurs beat the heat:

a beatdown so severe/convincing that it ENDED the way the Heat and Pistons played - those teams were over and their brands were solved/defeated - never to be used again

So what's my point? The 91' bulls beat the brand that had toppled the 80's Celtics and Lakers.. so those bulls had the capacity to beat those 80's dynasties and were infact, superior

[Vino24]

It's funny because the 91' bulls beat the b2b champs just like the 14' spurs beat the heat:

a beatdown so severe/convincing that it ENDED the way the Heat and Pistons played - those teams were over and their brands were solved/defeated - never to be used again

So what's my point? The 91' bulls beat the brand that had toppled the 80's Celtics and Lakers.. so those bulls had the capacity to beat those 80's dynasties and were infact, superior
:coleman: :coleman: :coleman:

[sdot_thadon]

Heck yeah you lied.. The stuff you posted was normal quibbling that every team has - it wasn't a shit storm or a big issue

look at the Warriors' quibbles this year - NOBODY would compare that team to the toxicity that is lebron's squads

And the results and stats and speak for themselves - the bulls won, while the stats proved that teammates played to capacity next to mj

pippen wasn't some secret 25 ppg scorer in a former life like Love or Bosh, and paxson wasn't some 20-pt guy... Pippen was a 20-pt player, while paxson was a 12-pt player - and that's what they got alongside MJ.. ditto the rest of the cast

But if you think the bulls were a toxic environment like lebron's teams, than that elevates MJ more, since he persevered for 6/6... Otoh, lebron let's the toxicity crumble his team and he leaves the franchise in shambles after failing to ring most years

Of course, the bulls were nowhere near the toxic environment of lebron's teams and had the best dynasty ever, outside of Russell dominating an 8-team league in the 60's.. the results speak for themselves
I said the Bulls were unhappy with shot distribution even as late as the 91 season. As a matter fact here's the exact part of my quote you highlighted:

Nobody on the Bulls was happy about shot distribution even throughout their 1st championship season. Everyone on the team already has knew Mj was great and was the engine to get them there but were still wanting their own time as well.

and your response was:


So ur a liar and simply making things up because you weren't there to watch.. pathetic

The bulls were a very young team when they won in 91, and guys like Pippen/Grant weren't in their prime yet..the last thing anyone was doing was worrying about shot distribution, especially considering they were growing by leaps and bounds every year and achieving new career highs

Ur just a liar dude

I went on to give you almost a damn page worth of industrial strength stfu.

Your reply:

Have any of you ever played varsity, D1, or pros?.. Every developing or veteran team has squabbles about how to play the best brand of ball - look at the Warriors this year

Nuff said.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/2bfb3a823fd1dd3aa88f1c2bdc155ec7/tumblr_oy14wcgj6E1u2ragso1_500.gif

abandon thread Op. It's about that time.

[3ball]

I said the Bulls were unhappy with shot distribution even as late as the 91 season. As a matter fact here's the exact part of my quote you highlighted:


Again, a lie - none of your quotes support that
.

[SpaceJam2]

I said the Bulls were unhappy with shot distribution even as late as the 91 season. As a matter fact here's the exact part of my quote you highlighted:


and your response was:



I went on to give you almost a damn page worth of industrial strength stfu.

Your reply:


Nuff said.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/2bfb3a823fd1dd3aa88f1c2bdc155ec7/tumblr_oy14wcgj6E1u2ragso1_500.gif

abandon thread Op. It's about that time.

The Don, pouring it on nice and thicc

[3ball]

The Don, pouring it on nice and thicc
It's classic sdot lying - it's his MO for years

None of the quotes he posted supports his claim that no one was happy with shot distribution.. nothing.. he's just a liar.. not sure what else to say.. :confusedshrug:

Maybe he can re-post the quotes which support that, but I didn't see anything

[SpaceJam2]

It's classic sdot lying - it's his MO for years

Nothing he posted supports his claim that no one was happy with shot distribution.. nothing.. he's just a liar.. not sure what else to say.. : confusedshrug

Maybe he can re-post the quotes which support that, but I didn't see anything

He just made an entire post on it with direct quotes. Read it again

[sdot_thadon]

It's classic sdot lying - it's his MO for years

None of the quotes he posted supports his claim that no one was happy with shot distribution.. nothing.. he's just a liar.. not sure what else to say.. :confusedshrug:

Maybe he can re-post the quotes which support that, but I didn't see anything
only if you can't read or are that dumb. Which i know neither is the case. Anybody who can read saw what happened. Just go back and reread my last post until reality sets in. Shouldn't you be off making 3 damage control threads anyway?

[SpaceJam2]

only if you can't read or are that dumb. Which i know neither is the case. Anybody who can read saw what happened. Just go back and reread my last post until reality sets in. Shouldn't you be off making 3 damage control threads anyway?

He's prepping 2 as we speak/type :lol

[3ball]

only if you can't read or are that dumb. Which i know neither is the case. Anybody who can read saw what happened. Just go back and reread my last post until reality sets in. Shouldn't you be off making 3 damage control threads anyway?
Again, you said no one was happy with shot distribution

But none of your quotes supports that

And what does that have to do with Phil, except to say that he wasn't coaching well? Maybe that's why he lost in 1990 ECF again despite an improved pip

[RealSkipBayless]

He's prepping 2 as we speak/type :lol
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,162

:lol :lol :lol

[3ball]

this notion that MJ created Phil is Bs.


MJ was the goat candidate in 1990, while Phil was a 1st time coach and still a nobody when MJ won with him in 91'...

so don't overrate Phil - Phil simply coached the best talent ever (3 top 10 players - the most of any coach)

And nothing changed when Phil took over in 1990 - he lost the ECF just like Collins lost in 1989... The real difference was that Pippen went from doormat to all-star...

indeed, the one-time Jeanie fling and current Knicks' nightmare simply had great timing, not the Midas touch.. he joined goat players as they were literally peaking..

The triangle failed many times and only worked with top 10 players.. Phil lost in 1st round until Pau arrived to give enough help to HOF Kobe - Phil needed talent like any other coach
.

[SpaceJam2]

Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,162

:lol :lol :lol

1.8 ppg you fake alt :lol

[AirBonner]

86 MJ has two Pippens. What happened?

[3ball]

86 MJ has two Pippens. What happened?
Gervin didn't play in the playoffs (3 minutes total) and Woodridge wasn't enough to beat the Celtics

Woodridge/MJ was enough to beat some teams, but those celtics were a goat team that swept the Finals too..

For instance, take Rondo, Kuzma, and a few other good players off the current lakers and make the Lakers the 8 seed vs the warriors.. it wouldn't matter if Ingram averaged 20 and lebron 45 like MJ... It's still a sweep... The Celtics had 5 HOF's (Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, Walton

But keep in mind that MJ's 8 seed played those celtics closer than lebron's 2 seed played the old spurs in 14... Or the Warriors in 18'.. and lebron had multiple HOF teammates versus mj's 0 teammates

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Made?

No.

He helped PJax just like Pippen become an ATG @ his craft. I think it goes without saying they needed MJ more than he needed them.

With trolls though? And quasi "Jordan fans"? Sometimes even the obvious wont click.

[SpaceJam2]

86 MJ has two Pippens. What happened?

I wonder if he was just missing something to fill...to fill a void... to Phil...:eek:
Fill Jackson :pimp:

[3ball]

Made?

No.

He helped PJax just like Pippen become an ATG @ his craft. I think it goes without saying they needed MJ more than he needed them.

With trolls though? And quasi "Jordan fans"? Sometimes even the obvious wont click.
"Made" might be a little too strong.

Like, MJ didn't make Phil a man or anything

But MJ was under no obligation to accept 1st-timer Phil or his funky offense.. without MJ's cooperation and willingness to work through the ups and downs of learning the offense, Phil's tenure isn't a success

For instance, imagine if pop was a first-time coach... if lebron went to play for him and started playing entirely off-ball, or mostly off-ball, people would credit lebron with adjusting his game.. and when pop won his first ring with lebron in year 2, no one would give 2nd year pop credit - people would credit the already-goat-candidate Lebron like they did MJ in 1991..

the existing goat gets the credit; not the 1st timer.. we've simply shifted the goal posts in hindsight, i.e. we now recognize Phil as a goat coach, so that means he was goat in 1991 too - but he was just a 2nd year nobody in 91'

only after the guys got used to winning together and guys developed an allegiance to Phil, did Phil start to be looked at as a great all-time coach .. but MJ spearheaded the whole thing by not lebronning it and accepting the offense
.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

"Made" might be a little too strong.

Like, MJ didn't make Phil a man or anything

But MJ was under no obligation to accept 1st-timer Phil or his funky offense.. without MJ's cooperation and willingness to work through the ups and downs of learning the offense, Phil's tenure isn't a success

For instance, imagine if pop was a first-time coach... if lebron went to play for him and started playing entirely off-ball, or mostly off-ball, people would credit lebron with adjusting his game.. and when pop won his first ring with lebron in year 2, no one would give 2nd year pop credit - people would credit the already-goat-candidate Lebron like they did MJ in 1991..

the existing goat gets the credit; not the 1st timer.. we've simply shifted the goal posts in hindsight, i.e. we now recognize Phil as a goat coach, so that means he was goat in 1991 too - but he was just a 2nd year nobody in 91'

only after the guys got used to winning together and guys developed an allegiance to Phil, did Phil start to be looked at as a great all-time coach .. but MJ spearheaded the whole thing by not lebronning it and accepting the offense
.

Well that's reasonable.

There are posters on here who act like Mike "never liked the triangle". And that he wanted out :oldlol: Fact is nobody "likes it". They're used to playing more isolation basketball. Kobe constantly tried to break it. Even Pippen complained about it. But in the end? They accepted it and it made them and their teams better (more emphasis on ball movement/moving without the ball). I cleared that distinction in another thread. No surprise the trolls ignored it :oldlol:

[3ball]

Well that's reasonable.

There are posters on here who act like Mike "never liked the triangle". And that he wanted out :oldlol: Fact is nobody "likes it". They're used to playing more isolation basketball. Kobe constantly tried to break it. Even Pippen complained about it. But in the end? They accepted it and it made them and their teams better (more emphasis on ball movement/moving without the ball). I cleared that distinction in another thread. No surprise the trolls ignored it :oldlol:


Exactly, no one likes the ball taken out of their hands

But that's what makes MJ the goat scorer, over and above his ppg advantage - he was the goat scorer without a system and WITH a system (arguably the strictest system in the modern era)

MJ had to provide the scoring that his cast and the triangle needed WITHOUT the ball in his hands (league-leading scoring).. so if mj was only elite at ball-dominance, he and Phil would've failed.. that's why I say MJ's goat ability "made" Phil - a weaker scorer OR skill set (ball-dominance) wouldn't have cut it

(without a system - 37 ppg... with a system - MJ was the only perimeter scoring champ that won a ring in the same year - MJ 6 times, kaj/shaq one each in 71' and 00')
.

[sdot_thadon]

Again, you said no one was happy with shot distribution

But none of your quotes supports that

And what does that have to do with Phil, except to say that he wasn't coaching well? Maybe that's why he lost in 1990 ECF again despite an improved pip
You're in denial, every single quote was about shots to varying degrees. Every single quote supports that. :oldlol:

And what it had to do with Phil? You didn't even know what you were replying to? I said in a previous post Phil's greatest attribute imo was being able to manage egos. I was told he never managed a single ego until L.A. It led to almost a page of quotes you wish didn't exist.

He had work to do to get what he needed out of that team. Mj was the main attraction but Phil was the director. And if Mj "made" Phil, why couldn't he "make" Collins, Loughery, or Albeck? Kinda reminds me of the he made Scottie trash: if he made Pip, why the hell did he only make 1?? Why didn't he make one in Washington??:oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

You're in denial, every single quote was about shots to varying degrees. Every single quote supports that. :oldlol:

And what it had to do with Phil? You didn't even know what you were replying to? I said in a previous post Phil's greatest attribute imo was being able to manage egos. I was told he never managed a single ego until L.A. It led to almost a page of quotes you wish didn't exist.

He had work to do to get what he needed out of that team. Mj was the main attraction but Phil was the director. And if Mj "made" Phil, why couldn't he "make" Collins, Loughery, or Albeck? Kinda reminds me of the he made Scottie trash: if he made Pip, why the hell did he only make 1?? Why didn't he make one in Washington??:oldlol:

Yikes :eek:

[3ball]

You're in denial, every single quote was about shots to varying degrees. Every single quote supports that. :oldlol:

And what it had to do with Phil? You didn't even know what you were replying to? I said in a previous post Phil's greatest attribute imo was being able to manage egos. I was told he never managed a single ego until L.A. It led to almost a page of quotes you wish didn't exist.

And if Mj "made" Phil, why couldn't he "make" Collins, Loughery, or Albeck? Kinda reminds me of the he made Scottie trash: if he made Pip, why the hell did he only make 1?? Why didn't he make one in Washington??:oldlol:
See, the thing is that your assertion of whether the bulls were juggling shot distribution issues is irrelevant to whether MJ made Phil or vice versa

I realized that I wasted a whole page arguing about your irrelevant derail (albiet not a lie per say)

And we know why MJ didn't "make" Loughery or Albeck - those were MJ's first couple seasons where nearly everyone loses (Kyrie, Lebron, Curry, Durant, MJ, everyone), unless the team was good before they arrived (magic, kobe) .. so MJ's first couple years shouldn't be held against him any more than lebron, kyrie or curry's are held against them

Regarding Collins - Collins did the same thing Phil did - lose in the ECF... The one difference was pippen's improvement - Phil benefitted from it, and Collins didn't.. obviously, 91' pippen isn't averaging 9 points in the ECF like 89' Pippen did





He had work to do to get what he needed out of that team. Mj was the main attraction but Phil was the director.


Like I was telling Kuniva, the triangle proved MJ was the goat scorer, over and above his ppg advantage - he was the goat scorer without a system AND WITH a system (arguably the strictest system in the modern era)

MJ had to provide the league-leading scoring that his cast and the triangle needed WITHOUT the ball in his hands.. so if mj was only elite at ball-dominance, he and Phil would've failed.. that's why I say MJ's goat ability "made" Phil - a weaker scorer OR skill set (ball-dominance) wouldn't have cut it
.

[sdot_thadon]

See, the thing is that your assertion of whether the bulls were juggling shot distribution issues is irrelevant to whether MJ made Phil or vice versa

I realized that I wasted a whole page arguing about your irrelevant derail (albiet not a lie per say)
It wasn't a derail at all, it's relevant to Jackson's ability as a coach......and i wasn't even talking to you, could have easily skated around the post instead you asked for proof. you got it.


And we know why MJ didn't "make" Loughery or Albeck - those were MJ's first couple seasons where nearly everyone loses (Kyrie, Lebron, Curry, Durant, MJ, everyone), unless the team was good before they arrived (magic, kobe) .. so MJ's first couple years shouldn't be held against him any more than lebron, kyrie or curry's are held against them

Regarding Collins - Collins did the same thing Phil did - lose in the ECF... The one difference was pippen's improvement - Phil benefitted from it, and Collins didn't.. obviously, 91' pippen isn't averaging 9 points in the ECF like 89' Pippen did
He didn't "make" them, because he couldn't. He even had a 2nd chance to "make" Collins in Washington but not only did he not "make" him but he didn't "make" the playoffs 2 years in a row that we tend to write off......


Like I was telling Kuniva, the triangle proved MJ was the goat scorer, over and above his ppg advantage - he was the goat scorer without a system AND WITH a system (arguably the strictest system in the modern era)

MJ had to provide the league-leading scoring that his cast and the triangle needed WITHOUT the ball in his hands.. so if mj was only elite at ball-dominance, he and Phil would've failed.. that's why I say MJ's goat ability "made" Phil - a weaker scorer OR skill set (ball-dominance) wouldn't have cut it
.
Indeed he's likely the greatest scorer to ever live, you just keep making these uniformed statements that can be debunked though. Kinda like above you said he provided the triangle with necessary scoring, when the truth of the matter is he broke the triangle whenever he felt like it. I've shown you quotes about him not playing the system and fighting it during games. Phil allowed Mj to do Mj once they got things figured out. You let great players do what they do, its the reason they are great in the 1st place. I'm starting to question whether you and some others here never got further than youtube highlights and stats when it comes to Mj.

[And1AllDay]

It wasn't a derail at all, it's relevant to Jackson's ability as a coach......and i wasn't even talking to you, could have easily skated around the post instead you asked for proof. you got it.


He didn't "make" them, because he couldn't. He even had a 2nd chance to "make" Collins in Washington but not only did he not "make" him but he didn't "make" the playoffs 2 years in a row that we tend to write off......


Indeed he's likely the greatest scorer to ever live, you just keep making these uniformed statements that can be debunked though. Kinda like above you said he provided the triangle with necessary scoring, when the truth of the matter is he broke the triangle whenever he felt like it. I've shown you quotes about him not playing the system and fighting it during games. Phil allowed Mj to do Mj once they got things figured out. You let great players do what they do, its the reason they are great in the 1st place. I'm starting to question whether you and some others here never got further than youtube highlights and stats when it comes to Mj.

:applause:

[3ball]

He didn't "make" Albeck and Loughery, because he couldn't



He lacked help because lottery picks go to bad teams

But his stats were greater, which is why he won more when he finally got help:


Stats for mj/lebron's first 3 playoff seasons


REGULAR SEASON

MJ. 85-87' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1987-sum:per_game):. 31.7 ppg.. 2.0 oreb.. 3.6 dreb.. 5.0 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 1.2 bpg.. 57.1 ts.. 27.8 PER
LBJ 06-08' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2008-sum:per_game):. 27.2 ppg.. 1.2 oreb.. 5.9 dreb.. 7.1 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 56.3 ts.. 27.2 PER..


^^^ jordan got 8 seeds, while lebron produced less but got 2 and 4 seeds


PLAYOFFS

MJ. 85-87' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1987-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 35.5 ppg.. 1.9 oreb.. 4.4 dreb.. 6.9 apg.. 2.4 spg.. 1.5 bpg.. 56.0 ts.. 27.4 PER
LBJ 06-08' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2008-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 27.5 ppg.. 1.4 oreb.. 6.6 dreb.. 7.3 apg.. 1.6 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 53.1 ts.. 23.8 PER..


^^^ jordan lost in 1st Round, while lebron produced less but made Finals


Lebron's cast made up the production gap.. He needed 2005 all-star Zydrunas, Hughes and new Coach Brown to make the 06' playoffs, just like MJ needed rookie Pippen to make the 2nd round.. except rookie pippen wasn't capable of 2-time all-star (Zydrunas), or 22/5/5 and 1st team all-D (05' Hughes)

Unfortunately, the way the media analyzes lebron/MJ, they imply that lebron was getting high seeds and the Finals with the same casts that MJ got 8 seeds with... But that's not true, and the stats above show that mj was producing far more than lebron





He even had a 2nd chance to "make" Collins in Washington but not only did he not "make" him but he didn't "make" the playoffs 2 years in a row that we tend to write off.....

.
Yeah but nobody knocks him for failing to be MVP caliber or win rings at 38-40 years old

Nonetheless, the wizards showed big improvements in all areas and that's better than the current Lakers can say - essentially, his wizards were a lesser mess than these Lakers.. so MJ stays beating lebron at each stage of their careers






Indeed he's likely the greatest scorer to ever live, you just keep making these uniformed statements that can be debunked though. Kinda like above you said he provided the triangle with necessary scoring, when the truth of the matter is he broke the triangle whenever he felt like it. I've shown you quotes about him not playing the system and fighting it during games. Phil allowed Mj to do Mj once they got things figured out. You let great players do what they do, its the reason they are great in the 1st place. I'm starting to question whether you and some others here never got further than youtube highlights and stats when it comes to Mj.


Well he either broke the triangle all the time and won 6 rings without it, or he stayed in line enough to win within it

Either way requires goat skill

Good systems don't allow a lot of ball-dominance - MJ had to provide the league-leading scoring that his cast and the triangle needed WITHOUT the ball in his hands.. so if mj was only elite at ball-dominance, he and Phil would've failed.. that's why I say MJ's goat ability "made" Phil - a weaker scorer OR skill set (ball-dominance) wouldn't work in the triangle
.

[Bawkish]

LOL at quoting Jordan Rules as a source

that book is biased af and not completely objective

it's like Skip wrote a book about Lebron

[SpaceJam2]

LOL at quoting Jordan Rules as a source

that book is biased af and not completely objective

it's like Skip wrote a book about Lebron

But they're quotes...

[Bawkish]

But they're quotes...

Did Spoelstra made Lebron?

[sdot_thadon]

LOL at quoting Jordan Rules as a source

that book is biased af and not completely objective

it's like Skip wrote a book about Lebron
I'm sorry you're not clear about the book and it's motives. Sam Smith was the Bulls beat writer at the time and had access of pretty much living with the team, being on flights, buses and in the lockerroom far more than media today has. Skip probably had never even met Lebron in person. Hopefully this can help your understanding of the book:



Sports was different then, which is why you can’t write The Jordan Rules today. There was no chartered aircraft, players didn’t stay at the Ritz or the Four Seasons. League rules allowed media to ride on any team bus; not just the bus of the team you traveled with. I flew with the team on a commercial aircraft. NBA rules mandated that all players had to be in the airport gate area one hour before departure, so we all sat around together. The flights were booked with 12 first class seats for the active roster players. I sat in coach with—no pun—the coaches. I always worked to find a seat next to Jackson, Tex Winter or Johnny Bach, and I relentlessly asked them questions about the game. It was a graduate study in basketball. Once Tex even brought one of his original copies of the Triple Post Offense and went over diagrams with me on a flight.
We stayed at Sheratons and Marriotts, and when Jordan’s three close buddies from North Carolina, Fred Whitfield, Fred Kerns, and Adolph Shiver couldn’t afford to meet him he’d ask me or my Sun-Times colleague Lacy Banks to sit with him in his hotel room and play cards. Practices were all open, and you could attend any team’s practice any time. Before games, as players warmed up on the floor, you could chat with them. The locker rooms were always open. Jordan would show up two or three hours before the game and would talk with anyone. In fact, Jordan talked so much to media we’d get tired of listening and move on to others.
No big deal. These were just the guys I spent almost all day every day with.


It's nothing like Skip Bayless in the least, it's a behind the scenes look at a team. It's importance is this is the closest we're ever getting with Mj to the coverage todays stars get, even though some how media has even less access but more stories.

[sdot_thadon]

Long ass post about Lebron in a thread about Phil and Mj = dead topic.
Since there's nothing left you can refute i gather you're moving on.

[tamaraw08]

^^^ Your stats are wrong - ur lying


01' WIZARDS WITHOUT MJ:. 21st offense.. 29th defense
02' WIZARDS.... WITH... MJ:. 13th offense.. 21st defense


So MJ improved the Wizards on both ends and got 18 more wins (despite missing 20 games with injury).. compare to the 19' Lakers, who were worse in all areas.. :facepalm ..:oldlol:

Btw, the 94' Bulls were still a decent team because they'd developed goat teamwork and brand of ball, as required to build any dynasty.

But the exact same roster from 1993 only won 47 games in 1989, and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 - so it was a lottery cast that developed the goat teamwork and brand of ball required to be a dynasty..

but this development could never have happened under phil if MJ didn't agree to run the triangle.. :hammerhead:

.
huh, I am lying,
00-01 Wizards were bad, yes yes yes. Who was listed as the EXECUTIVE WHO PUT THE TEAM TOGETHER? DING DING DING, Michael Jordan, handpicked the players and selected Leonard Hamilton as HC, So tell me, did he made Lenny...Lose
Check the link. https://www.basketball-reference.com.../WAS/2001.html
THE FOLLOWING YEAR after MJ's first year with the Wizards, they GOT WORST... STAY WITH ME 3BALL,
2002-03, 21ST IN ORTG, 18TH IN DRTG, CLICK THE LINK BELOW
https://www.basketball-reference.com.../WAS/2003.html
now, Did MJ make Doug Collins... Lose..AGAIN? :banghead:
MJ plus Doug, Jerry Stackhouse, Laetner, Hughes (averaged 17pts/game for Washington) = 37 wins.
Pippen+Phil + rookie Kukoc= 55 wins. You are right again, ding ding ding, they developed great teamwork, coached by .....Phil Jackson, not MJ, get it 3ball?
Phil comes back and coach the terrible Smush Parker and the very limited Kwame with Kobe in LA...= 45 wins, 8th best in ORTG.
So, MJ failed with Loughery
failed with Albeck
Failed with Collins twice. Then gets coached by PHil.....wins 6 rings...
Kobe failed with Del
failed with Rambis
failed with Rudy T.
failed with Brown
failed with MDA but but but....you still don't see the picture:rolleyes:
I am not saying Doug is stupid but he failed to bring MJ anywhere with better lineups. and oh BTW, WHYTHE FREAK ARE YOU BRING THE '19 Laker into this specific topic... you know how MJ made Phil.

[SpaceJam2]

huh, I am lying,
00-01 Wizards were bad, yes yes yes. Who was listed as the EXECUTIVE WHO PUT THE TEAM TOGETHER? DING DING DING, Michael Jordan, handpicked the players and selected Leonard Hamilton as HC, So tell me, did he made Lenny...Lose
Check the link. https://www.basketball-reference.com.../WAS/2001.html
THE FOLLOWING YEAR after MJ's first year with the Wizards, they GOT WORST... STAY WITH ME 3BALL,
2002-03, 21ST IN ORTG, 18TH IN DRTG, CLICK THE LINK BELOW
https://www.basketball-reference.com.../WAS/2003.html
now, Did MJ make Doug Collins... Lose..AGAIN? :banghead:
MJ plus Doug, Jerry Stackhouse, Laetner, Hughes (averaged 17pts/game for Washington) = 37 wins.
Pippen+Phil + rookie Kukoc= 55 wins. You are right again, ding ding ding, they developed great teamwork, coached by .....Phil Jackson, not MJ, get it 3ball?
Phil comes back and coach the terrible Smush Parker and the very limited Kwame with Kobe in LA...= 45 wins, 8th best in ORTG.
So, MJ failed with Loughery
failed with Albeck
Failed with Collins twice. Then gets coached by PHil.....wins 6 rings...
Kobe failed with Del
failed with Rambis
failed with Rudy T.
failed with Brown
failed with MDA but but but....you still don't see the picture:rolleyes:
I am not saying Doug is stupid but he failed to bring MJ anywhere with better lineups. and oh BTW, WHYTHE FREAK ARE YOU BRING THE '19 Laker into this specific topic... you know how MJ made Phil.

Bloodbath

[sdot_thadon]

And to add another layer to his post, those Wizard's seasons by the way occured in the window of the worst eastern conference ever i keep hearing about.....

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/9fwk6R53/Aaajjj1554481851877.jpg

[3ball]

And to add another layer to his post, those Wizard's seasons by the way occured in the window of the worst eastern conference ever i keep hearing about.....
It's clear MJ fam won the thread because you guys are just citing his wizards years at this point

I refuted everything else..

you guys can have the wizards years.. even though ur wrong on that too (MJ's goat play for a 40-year old was more proof he's goat;. Lebron will be 300 pounds at 40)

[TheCorporation]

It's clear MJ fam won the thread because you guys are just citing his wizards years at this point

I refuted everything else..

you guys can have the wizards years.. even though ur wrong on that too (MJ's goat play for a 40-year old was more proof he's goat;. Lebron will be 300 pounds at 40)

https://i.postimg.cc/mDFf1JJK/1554498081496.jpg

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wizards years were a plus if anything.

I mean, if you care about cumulative stats then maybe not (they brought down his career averages). Yoda Mike murked those 2k superstars though. From VC (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05-WkCHmrdo) to Mcgrady (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kODtXcWaEwc), to Shaq/Kobe's Lakers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4T8_U4iHt4), Dirk's Mavs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw) and even those finals teams led by JKidd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqd_X6LuFHg).

Jordan's stint in Washington? It proved without a doubt he could still play. Against "coveted" swingmen too. Ultimately his body just wouldn't have it. But that's father time for you.

[And1AllDay]

Wizards years were a plus if anything.

I mean, if you care about cumulative stats then maybe not (they brought down his career averages). Yoda Mike murked those 2k superstars though. From VC (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05-WkCHmrdo) to Mcgrady (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kODtXcWaEwc), to Shaq/Kobe's Lakers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4T8_U4iHt4), Dirk's Mavs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3IQKeenIKw) and even those finals teams led by JKidd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqd_X6LuFHg).

Jordan's stint in Washington? It proved without a doubt he could still play. Against "coveted" swingmen too. Ultimately his body just wouldn't have it. But that's father time for you.

Mike put the league on notice and hit everyone with that 18% from 3 point land shooting supreme :eek: