Who would have been an equivalent backcourt sidekick to Pippen in the 90s

[AussieSteve]

During the bulls first 3peat, which guards would have been roughly equivalent help for one of the ATG front court players of the time (Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Ewing) as Pippen was for Jordan?

Here are some options...

Drexler
Stockton
KJ
Dumars
Price
Tim Hardaway
Reggie
Richmond
Isiah

Others?

[Overdrive]

Out of these? Stockton. Maybe Dumars for a tiny stretch.

Drexler was better than Pippen. Drexler was a legit first option who might've won if he didn't run into the great Pistons and MJ. He also was a serviceable Pippento Hakeem when he was traded and started to decline already.

KJ and Price were nice, but definately didn't have Pippen's impact, but in terms of Barkley and KJ that '93 Suns team was well built. They make it to the finals in '94 or '95 they most likely win.

Hardaway, you mean Tim, right? Penny was definately good enough to be a Pippen for Shaq.

[AussieSteve]

Out of these? Stockton. Maybe Dumars for a tiny stretch.

Drexler was better than Pippen. Drexler was a legit first option who might've won if he didn't run into the great Pistons and MJ. He also was a serviceable Pippento Hakeem when he was traded and started to decline already.

KJ and Price were nice, but definately didn't have Pippen's impact, but in terms of Barkley and KJ that '93 Suns team was well built. They make it to the finals in '94 or '95 they most likely win.

Hardaway, you mean Tim, right? Penny was definately good enough to be a Pippen for Shaq.

Yep, referring to Tim.

I also forgot to add Thomas who was an AS till 93

[SpaceJam2]

He's like a Kawhi with slightly less scoring, as your #2.
Yikes.

But for 80s ad 90s player none could play perimeter D like Scottie could.

[Smoke117]

Out of these? Stockton. Maybe Dumars for a tiny stretch.

Drexler was better than Pippen. Drexler was a legit first option who might've won if he didn't run into the great Pistons and MJ. He also was a serviceable Pippento Hakeem when he was traded and started to decline already.

KJ and Price were nice, but definately didn't have Pippen's impact, but in terms of Barkley and KJ that '93 Suns team was well built. They make it to the finals in '94 or '95 they most likely win.

Hardaway, you mean Tim, right? Penny was definately good enough to be a Pippen for Shaq.

Disagree with this. Scottie was a higher impact player throughout their careers. I've said multiple times that the two best players in that 92 finals were Jordan and Pippen. Drexler was only scoring 4 more points while being inferior in every other regard. (vastly so defensively) There's also the fact that Drexler spent a majority of his career on the run and gun up tempo Blazers which would have been the perfect kind of offense for someone like Pippen. His best attribute was always the open court (which he is top 5 ever), but the triangle offense was always a slow paced half court style offense. You want to say Scottie wasn't some stellar half court offensive player that's fine, but Drexler wasn't either. His scoring numbers would look just like Pippen's if you replaced him on the Bulls while not being even half the defensive player.

[TheMan]

Steve smitty Smith would have been a great complement to MJ had there been no Scottie. Dude was smooth, had the length to be a SF, could dribble and was a decent passer, smooth finisher too, excellent 3 pt shooter. Obviously wasn't the defender Pippen was but he held his own on the defensive side, and what he lacked as a defender, he could make it up on the offensive side of the ball since he was better at creating his own shot than Pip.

He came on the scene later in MJ's career but flip SS for Pip in '87 (for argument's sake) and the Bulls would've been just as formidable, plus I believe he would've become a better defender just practicing with MJ...

[Smoke117]

Steve smitty Smith would have been a great complement to MJ had there been no Scottie. Dude was smooth, had the length to be a SF, could dribble and was a decent passer, smooth finisher too. Obviously wasn't the defender Pippen was but he held his own on the defensive side, and what he lacked as a defender, he could make it up on the offensive side of the ball since he was better at creating his own shot than Pip.

He came on the scene later in MJ's career but flip SS for Pip in '87 (for argument's sake) and the Bulls would've been just as formidable, plus I believe he would've become a better defender just practicing with MJ...

Steve Smith? LOL. Steve Smith is a complete scrub compared to Pippen. He at no point ever in his career had anything close to an impact of even a 1991 Pippen. The irony of going on about his scoring is also hilarious when Scottie has 4 seasons scoring more points than Smith ever did. He also wasn't "holding his own on the defensive side". Smith was absolute crap throughout his career defensively. Scottie Pippen was a legitimate superstar in his prime. Steve Smith was at best a borderline all star.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Richmond because of his defense and scoring (that would make MJ more of a playmaker but they'd figure it out imo).

Grant Hill circa 95-98.

I like the Steve Smith mention, but he wasn't much of an impact player. He and Reggie did have some great duels in the 90s.

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/9fwk6R53/Aaajjj1554481851877.jpg

[3ball]

Kyrie, Wade, Middleton in this era, and many more

Stockton, Drexler, Penny, Payton in the 90's

And a ton more guys

On offense, 15-20% of the league was better than pippen.. pippen wasn't a great offensive player or a "lethal" scorer like kyrie or wade - he virtually NEVER commanded a double


Vin Baker, Derrick Coleman in the frontcourt were equal or better than pippen... And many more

Any of these guys would win rings next to mj and be recognized as all-nba and HOF as a result

[And1AllDay]

Kyrie, Wade, Middleton in this era, and many more

Stockton, Drexler, Penny, Payton in the 90's

And a ton more guys

On offense, 15-20% of the league was better than pippen.. pippen wasn't a great offensive player or a "lethal" scorer like kyrie or wade - he virtually NEVER commanded a double


Vin Baker, Derrick Coleman in the frontcourt were equal or better than pippen... And many more

Any of these guys would win rings next to mj and be recognized as all-nba and HOF as a result


Defense bruh

[3ball]

Defense bruh
An overrated aspect of the game for non-centers

Kyrie was on the #1 defense in the league last year

It's more about system and leadership/example and coaching/accountability than 1 perimeter player

[Smoke117]

An overrated aspect of the game for non-centers

Kyrie was on the #1 defense in the league last year

It's more about system and leadership/example and coaching/accountability than 1 perimeter player

Yeah, except that Pippen was a huge part of why the bulls were so great defensively in the first place. Few if any perimeter players have ever had his kind of impact defensively. He was regularly the best defensive player on the court for both teams. But look who I am responding to...of course you are trying to lower the impact Scottie had defensively. It helps put Jordan higher up on that pedestal in your obsessed and mentally ill mind. This is especially amusing considering the Bulls were #2 in defense in 95 almost solely based on how dominant Pippen was...a perimeter player.

[3ball]

Yeah, except that Pippen was a huge part of why the bulls were so great defensively in the first place. Few if any perimeter players have ever had his kind of impact defensively. He was regularly the best defensive player on the court for both teams. But look who I am responding to...of course you are trying to lower the impact Scottie had defensively. It helps put Jordan higher up on that pedestal in your obsessed and mentally ill mind. This is especially amusing considering the Bulls were #2 in defense in 95 almost solely based on how dominant Pippen was...a perimeter player.
MJ was the best defender in many series like the 96' ECF, 96' Finals, 92' Finals, and many more

You say pippen helped MJ on defense, but MJ still had to be a goat defender - whereas lebron is frequently bad on D and therefore needs more defensive help... :hammerhead:... it's illogical to say that the better defender (MJ) needed more help than the worse defender (lebron)

In addition to NOT preventing mj from needing to be a goat defender, pippen also made MJ be the goat scorer... :facepalm

Again, hakeem could probably have prevented MJ from needing to be a goat defender, but not pippen.. for those bulls to be goat, MJ had to be a goat defender
.

[Smoke117]

MJ was the best defender in many series like the 96' ECF, 96' Finals, 92' Finals, and many more

You say pippen helped MJ on defense, but MJ still had to be a goat defender - whereas lebron is frequently bad on D and therefore needs more defensive help... :hammerhead:... it's illogical to say that the better defender (MJ) needed more help than the worse defender (lebron)

In addition to NOT preventing mj from needing to be a goat defender, pippen also made MJ be the goat scorer... :facepalm

Again, hakeem could probably have prevented MJ from needing to be a goat defender, but not pippen.. for those bulls to be goat, MJ had to be a goat defender
.

This is why it's impossible to take you seriously. You actually believe this nonsense. Jordan a better defender than Pippen...lmfao. 96 finals Jordan was a better defender? That's why Scottie had a a team low 103drating to Jordan's 107? Okay. A 102 drating to Jordans 104 in the 92 finals? 102 drating to Jordans 106drating in the 92 ecf? You're just a joke. This why I so rarely bother to respond to you. You can't reason with someone so mentally defunct. Pippen was regularly the best defensive player for the Bulls throughout the playoffs series throughout their runs. That's just a fact. Sorry, bud.

[Overdrive]

Disagree with this. Scottie was a higher impact player throughout their careers. I've said multiple times that the two best players in that 92 finals were Jordan and Pippen. Drexler was only scoring 4 more points while being inferior in every other regard. (vastly so defensively) There's also the fact that Drexler spent a majority of his career on the run and gun up tempo Blazers which would have been the perfect kind of offense for someone like Pippen. His best attribute was always the open court (which he is top 5 ever), but the triangle offense was always a slow paced half court style offense. You want to say Scottie wasn't some stellar half court offensive player that's fine, but Drexler wasn't either. His scoring numbers would look just like Pippen's if you replaced him on the Bulls while not being even half the defensive player.

First of all Pippen is my AT favourite Bull. He had great impact, even when he aged and played on that Blazers team, but his impact suffers from diminishing returns when he becomes the first option. We've seen him on a well coached team that played together for years - 1 player. He had his best season statwise, had 55 wins, but I doubt he ever makes the finals as a #1 option without a perfect team around him.

For me Drexler is the better, more legit #1 option, but the worse player overall if that does make sense. I don't think either Blazers team makes the finals with Pippen in place of Drexler.

Also Drexler wasn't the defender Puppen was, but he was no slouch either. He wasn't lazy, disrupted passing lanes and rebounded well.

[SpaceJam2]

An overrated aspect of the game for non-centers

Kyrie was on the #1 defense in the league last year

It's more about system and leadership/example and coaching/accountability than 1 perimeter player

So now we're saying Kyrie = Pippen on defense?

LOG OUT. I forbid you to post for the next 48 hours

[3ball]

This is why it's impossible to take you seriously. You actually believe this nonsense. Jordan a better defender than Pippen...lmfao. 96 finals Jordan was a better defender? That's why Scottie had a a team low 103drating to Jordan's 107? Okay. A 102 drating to Jordans 104 in the 92 finals? 102 drating to Jordans 106drating in the 92 ecf? You're just a joke. This why I so rarely bother to respond to you. You can't reason with someone so mentally defunct. Pippen was regularly the best defensive player for the Bulls throughout the playoffs series throughout their runs. That's just a fact. Sorry, bud.
You guys make errors because you lack knowledge

DRtg measures steals, blocks and defensive rebounds - the defensive rebounds is why forwards have better drtg than guards, and also why Bird has better DRtg than Pippen

So Drtg isn't an argument and the creators of the stat say it doesn't work for comparisons

MJ held Drexler to 40% in the 92' Finals while scoring 36 ppg - that's better than pippen.. and pippen let penny go off in the 96' ECF, while Penny didn't score a point when MJ guarded him (the youtube channel "nobody touches jordan" documents this)..btw, MJ almost always forced his man into bad shooting - look up various playoff series - he's arguably the goat perimeter defender

Anyway, MJ was considered an equal or better defender than pippen - you can't change that just by saying otherwise

Again you say pippen helped MJ on defense, but MJ still had to be a goat-level defender - whereas lebron is frequently bad on D and therefore needs more defensive help... ... it's illogical to say that the better defender (MJ) needed more help than the worse defender (lebron)

In addition to NOT preventing mj from needing to be a goat defender, pippen also made MJ be the goat scorer...

Again, hakeem could probably have prevented MJ from needing to be a goat defender, but not pippen.. for those bulls to be goat, MJ had to be a goat defender

[90sgoat]

All I know is that if you watch the 1990 finals, then Worthy is much better than Pippen. As in no doubt, Worthy demolishes Pippen for impact, until he gets hurt.

3ball is correct. Pippen didn't have much impact on offense. He was a glue guy, capable of running the fast break. At best he is Gordon Hayward offensively today, but with worse shooting.

So Pippen was a perfect fit alongside MJ, cause MJ could score for two. He would have been a good fit with Barkley, but not with Hakeem and not with Malone or even Magic. He was a good fit running the floor with MJ.

He would have been a good fit with Dwade as well. Pippen and Dwade and Bosh win 3 in a row.

Drexler, Reggie, far superior in impact to Pippen.

[AussieSteve]

3ball (and others), the question I guess I am asking is this...


During the early 90s

Jordan had Pippen.

Barkley had Hersey Hawkins and then KJ.
Hakeem had Kenny Smith
Robinson had Sean Elliott
Malone had Stockton
Ewing had John Starks

I remember Barkley saying that up until the 93 finals, he genuinely thought he was as good as Jordan, but Jordan just had more help.

Who would you put in this sentance: "If you gave one of these guys ......., that would have been a fair fight. If the bulls still win, it simply because Jordan is better."

[TheCorporation]

3ball (and others), the question I guess I am asking is this...


During the early 90s

Jordan had Pippen.

Barkley had Hersey Hawkins and then KJ.
Hakeem had Kenny Smith
Robinson had Sean Elliott
Malone had Stockton
Ewing had John Starks

I remember Barkley saying that up until the 93 finals, he genuinely thought he was as good as Jordan, but Jordan just had more help.

Who would you put in this sentance: "If you gave one of these guys ......., that would have been a fair fight. If the bulls still win, it simply because Jordan is better."

He doesn't understand or at least want to admit that Jordan Bulllsis basically like how the Warriors are now. Super stacked and expected to win.

But you can't reason with crazy people so at some point...:lol

[Duncan21formvp]

Richard Jefferson, Antoine Walker are good comparisons.

[3ball]

He doesn't understand or at least want to admit that Jordan Bulllsis basically like how the Warriors are now. Super stacked and expected to win.

But you can't reason with crazy people so at some point...:lol
They were expected to win because of Jordan.. and no one ever called the bulls stacked back then - the best teams in the 90's had 2 all- stars and the bulls were no different..

the only teams that people called "loaded" was the 93' Suns, 96' Magic, 98' Lakers, and also the 92' Blazers.. and the 96' bulls when they first got rodman... that's it - those were the only teams ever called "loaded" in the 90's - certainly the first 3-peat bulls virtually never were

Ultimately, Pippen wasn't considered a must-have piece to win back then, and almost got traded a few times.. only in hindsight have lebron fans made pippen into something he wasn't

Numerous 2nd options were equal or better at the time the bulls faced them, such as Penny, Payton, Stockton and Worthy... But more importantly, the bulls' 3 thru 12 spots were much worse than other teams.. see the 93' Finals where MJ outscored barkley by 16 and pippen outscored KJ by 4, while the 3 thru 9 spots all got demolished by the suns (both teams played 9 guys).. that was standard for the bulls

Like, I know you guys weren't around back then, but do the math - how stacked could the bulls be if MJ had to score THAT much more than everyone - he was literally scoring 5-10 more ppg than everyone for his whole playoff career, and had a bigger gap over his 2nd option than anyne ever
.

[AussieSteve]

They were expected to win because of Jordan.. and no one ever called the bulls stacked back then - the best teams in the 90's had 2 all- stars and the bulls were no different..

the only teams that people called "loaded" was the 93' Suns, 96' Magic, 98' Lakers, and also the 92' Blazers.. and the 96' bulls when they first got rodman... that's it - those were the only teams ever called "loaded" in the 90's - certainly the first 3-peat bulls virtually never were

Ultimately, Pippen wasn't considered an must-have piece to win back then, and almost got traded a few times.. only in hindsight have lebron fans made pippen into something he wasn't

Numerous 2nd options were equal or better, such as Penny, Payton, Stockton and Worthy... But more importantly, the bulls' 3 thru 12 spots were much worse than other teams.. see the 93' Finals where MJ outscored barkley by 16 and pippen outscored KJ by 4, while the 3 thru 9 spots all got demolished by the suns (both teams played 9 guys).. that was standard for the bulls

Like, I know you guys weren't around back then, but do the math - how stacked could the bulls be if MJ had to score THAT much more than everyone - he was literally scoring 5-10 more ppg than everyone for his whole playoff career, and had a bigger gap over his 2nd option than anyne ever

It's true, they were expected to win because of Jordan. But the point is that there were no other teams at the time that had BOTH a genuine superstar and an All-NBA level sidekick (maybe the Jazz if you consider Malone to be a genuine superstar in the early 90s).

If you gave someone like Barkley or Hakeem the same help as Jordan, the Bulls probably still win, because MJ was the best in the world. We saw him prove that pretty much once and for all against the Suns in 93.

But outside of the 93 finals, we never saw Barkley or Hakeem or Robinson or Drexler, or any of the other top tier players of the era, go up against Jordan with a player of Pippen's calibre by their side. We just didn't. And even in 93, KJ was well below his best, having missed half the RS, and Barkley could hardly score outside the paint because of his elbow niggle. I dare say the suns would have won if not for those two factors.

[TheCorporation]

This is why it's impossible to take you seriously. You actually believe this nonsense. Jordan a better defender than Pippen...lmfao. 96 finals Jordan was a better defender? That's why Scottie had a a team low 103drating to Jordan's 107? Okay. A 102 drating to Jordans 104 in the 92 finals? 102 drating to Jordans 106drating in the 92 ecf? You're just a joke. This why I so rarely bother to respond to you. You can't reason with someone so mentally defunct. Pippen was regularly the best defensive player for the Bulls throughout the playoffs series throughout their runs. That's just a fact. Sorry, bud.

BIG facts

[TheCorporation]

It's true, they were expected to win because of Jordan. But the point is that there were no other teams at the time that had BOTH a genuine superstar and an All-NBA level sidekick (maybe the Jazz if you consider Malone to be a genuine superstar in the early 90s).

If you gave someone like Barkley or Hakeem the same help as Jordan, the Bulls probably still win, because MJ was the best in the world. We saw him prove that pretty much once and for all against the Suns in 93.

But outside of the 93 finals, we never saw Barkley or Hakeem or Robinson or Drexler, or any of the other top tier players of the era, go up against Jordan with a player of Pippen's calibre by their side. We just didn't. And even in 93, KJ was well below his best, having missed half the RS, and Barkley could hardly score outside the paint because of his elbow niggle. I dare say the suns would have won if not for those two factors.

Cold hard facts that 3ball wants to contort/ignore... :no:

[AussieSteve]

It's not so much that Pippen was so great. There were a number of players who were considered better than him at the time. But if you took the top ~12 players in the league, 2 of them were on the bulls, 2 were on the jazz and all the rest were flying solo. Most had a fringe all star at best as their sidekick.

Like in 1990 and 91. Yes Jordan was amazing in both the RS and PO, but regardless of his or Barkley's performances in the ECSFs, the 76ers were never going to win. As a case in point, in game 1 of the 91 series, Barkley had 34 points on 13 fga in 3 quarters, and the bulls were still up by 20 points. So chuck sat out the 4th. Swap Barkley and Jordan in either of those series and the bulls still win both times.

EDIT: The 93 suns were undoubtedly the best team Jordan beat, with KJ as the #2 option. Here are his stats that series vs Pippen's.

KJ: 17.2 on 42% / 3.0 / 6.5 / 1.3 / 0.3
Pip: 21.2 on 44% / 9.2 / 7.7 / 2.0 / 1.0

[3ball]

It's true, they were expected to win because of Jordan. But the point is that there were no other teams at the time that had BOTH a genuine superstar and an All-NBA level sidekick (maybe the Jazz if you consider Malone to be a genuine superstar in the early 90s).



Did you even look into it??.. Do any research? Or are you just typing what you want to believe??..

Here's the All-NBA 2nd options that compare to pippen:


- Pippen wasn't an all-star or all-nba in 91', but Worthy got both those accolades and was considered better than Pippen at that time

- Penny was 1st team in 96' and significantly outplayed Pippen in the 96' ECF

- Stockton was 10-time All-NBA from 88-99' and ranked higher than pippen all-time on ESPN's latest rankings

- Payton was 9-time All-NBA from 94-02' and significantly outplayed Pippen in the 96' Finals

- 98' Duncan > Pippen and duncan/drob/popovich were demolished by the 98' jazz

- KJ was 5x All-NBA



But more importantly, the bulls' 3 thru 12 spots were much worse than other teams.. see the 93' Finals where MJ outscored barkley by 16 and pippen outscored KJ by 4, while the 3 thru 9 spots all got demolished by the suns (both teams played 9 guys).. that was standard for the bulls

Like, I know you guys weren't around back then, but do the math - how stacked could the bulls be if MJ had to score THAT much more than everyone - he was literally scoring 5-10 more ppg than everyone for his whole playoff career, and had a bigger gap over his 2nd option than anyne ever

[305Baller]

Grant Hill
Vince Carter
Drexler

[AussieSteve]

Did you even look into it??.. Do any research? Or are you just typing what you want to believe??..

Here's the All-NBA 2nd options that compare to pippen:


- Pippen wasn't an all-star or all-nba in 91', but Worthy got both those accolades and was considered better than Pippen at that time

- Penny was 1st team in 96' and significantly outplayed Pippen in the 96' ECF

- Stockton was 10-time All-NBA from 88-99' and ranked higher than pippen all-time on ESPN's latest rankings

- Payton was 9-time All-NBA from 94-02' and significantly outplayed Pippen in the 96' Finals

- 98' Duncan > Pippen and duncan/drob/popovich were demolished by the 98' jazz

- KJ was 5x All-NBA



But more importantly, the bulls' 3 thru 12 spots were much worse than other teams.. see the 93' Finals where MJ outscored barkley by 16 and pippen outscored KJ by 4, while the 3 thru 9 spots all got demolished by the suns (both teams played 9 guys).. that was standard for the bulls

Like, I know you guys weren't around back then, but do the math - how stacked could the bulls be if MJ had to score THAT much more than everyone - he was literally scoring 5-10 more ppg than everyone for his whole playoff career, and had a bigger gap over his 2nd option than anyne ever

I'm older than you mate. I was around.

I'm not talking 2nd 3 peat. 1996 to 1999 is the worst era for star talent in the 3 point era.

I'm talking first 3 peat. When Jordan was in his prime and there are actually other ATGs to compete with.

And I'm not saying MJ isn't the GOAT, just answer the question in OP...

Which guards would have been as good a second option for hakeem, chuck etc. as pippen was for Jordan?

Personally I think KJ (healthy KJ), Tim Hardaway or Stockton would be about equivalent. Drexler probably slightly better.



You do make a valid point about 91 lakers. Although Worthy was injured kind of useless in those finals.

[SpaceJam2]

Grant Hill
Vince Carter
Drexler

Finally, a good and fair list.

And 3ball, I thought I forbade you to post for 48 hours after all your bull crap shit

[AussieSteve]

He doesn't understand or at least want to admit that Jordan Bulllsis basically like how the Warriors are now. Super stacked and expected to win.

But you can't reason with crazy people so at some point...:lol

I'm not trying to troll here. The Bulls were no super team. They had the GOAT and he had a lot of help. But they were no lebron / wade / bosh Heat or current Warriors. Plenty of people, maybe most people, though Barkley and the suns would win in 93. No one expects anything but a warriors championship this year.

[sdot_thadon]

Did you even look into it??.. Do any research? Or are you just typing what you want to believe??..

Here's the All-NBA 2nd options that compare to pippen:

What a fraud, claims he was around then, questions if you checked and does this:



- Pippen wasn't an all-star or all-nba in 91', but Worthy got both those accolades and was considered better than Pippen at that time
Yeah Pippen made the all defensive team that year.



- Penny was 1st team in 96' and significantly outplayed Pippen in the 96' ECF
Penny was 1st team, but you foget Rodman made an all defensive team that season as well. Would have been an even matchup with Grant making all defense as well but he didn't play after game 1 of that series.



- Stockton was 10-time All-NBA from 88-99' and ranked higher than pippen all-time on ESPN's latest rankings
97 is the only thing in your entire quote accurate to the logic you're pushing here. 2 all nba players each for the jazz and bulls and 2 all defense as well. In 98? Stockton didn't make all nba or all defense while Scottie made both.



- Payton was 9-time All-NBA from 94-02' and significantly outplayed Pippen in the 96' Finals
Payton was all league but remember Rodman was all defense that same season.



- 98' Duncan > Pippen and duncan/drob/popovich were demolished by the 98' jazz
not even sure what this is supposed to mean:wtf:



- KJ was 5x All-NBA
He was but since you mentioned Pippen not making all league in 91' why no mention of Kj not making one the year he went against Mj? Logic much?

The real question is 3ball: Did you check?

[3ball]

I'm older than you mate. I was around.

I'm not talking 2nd 3 peat. 1996 to 1999 is the worst era for star talent in the 3 point era.

I'm talking first 3 peat. When Jordan was in his prime and there are actually other ATGs to compete with.

And I'm not saying MJ isn't the GOAT, just answer the question in OP...

Which guards would have been as good a second option for hakeem, chuck etc. as pippen was for Jordan?

Personally I think KJ (healthy KJ), Tim Hardaway or Stockton would be about equivalent. Drexler probably slightly better.



You do make a valid point about 91 lakers. Although Worthy was injured kind of useless in those finals.
In the 91' Finals, Worthy played 40 mpg and led the Lakers in scoring - 19 on 47% - same as regular season.

Btw, pippen was a SF and there were tons of great wings in the early 90's.. MJ wins in 1990 with bird I guarantee (25/10/8 in 90').

And people forget that superathlete SF Jerome Kersey was a 20 ppg scorer and led the blazers to the 1990 Finals with 21 ppg (same as drexler) - obviously, if drexler can make the 90' Finals with 21 ppg as 2nd option, then MJ would make it with 37 ppg that he averaged in those same playoffs.. you just don't understand how NOT stacked mj's team was - virtually everybody made the Finals with worse stats than MJ... that proves his cast was the weakest.. :confusedshrug:. If guys make the Finals with weaker stats, then mj would make it with his better stats using their cast . :confusedshrug:

Also, the following guys were all equal or better scorers than Pippen, with elite athleticism to follow MJ's defensive example:

Larry Nance
Dominique
Sean Elliot
Reggie Lewis
Derrick McKey
Tony Campbell

And obviously, Derrick Coleman/Shawn Kemp were versatile and would've killed it next to mj
.

[sdot_thadon]

Worthy was injured in game 4 and missed game 5 , altogether. If i remember correctly the game got out of hand in game 4 when he went down.

Stockton is probably the best option on the list Op. Being steady offensively and elite defensively and even then i don't think he was close to Scottie in terms of defensive impact. And Malone wasn't as good at that point as he'd be later in his career yet. They were closer to being on the same level then imho.

[3ball]

Worthy was injured in game 4 and missed game 5 , altogether. If i remember correctly the game got out of hand in game 4 when he went down.

Stockton is probably the best option on the list Op. Being steady offensively and elite defensively and even then i don't think he was close to Scottie in terms of defensive impact. And Malone wasn't as good at that point as he'd be later in his career yet. They were closer to being on the same level then imho.
Pippen is a SF, so I don't know why OP said guards

superathlete SF Jerome Kersey was a 20 ppg scorer and led the blazers to the 1990 Finals with 21 ppg (same as drexler) - obviously, if drexler can make the 90' Finals with 21 ppg as 2nd option, then MJ would make it with 37 ppg that he averaged in those same playoffs.. apparently, you guys don't understand how NOT stacked mj's team was - virtually everybody made the Finals with worse stats than MJ... that proves his cast was the weakest.. :confusedshrug:. If guys make the Finals with weaker stats, then mj would make it with his better stats using their cast . :confusedshrug:

Also, the following guys were all equal or better scorers than Pippen, with elite athleticism to follow MJ's defensive example:

Larry Nance
Dominique
Sean Elliot
Reggie Lewis
Derrick McKey
Tony Campbell

And obviously, Derrick Coleman/Shawn Kemp were versatile and would've killed it next to mj

[AussieSteve]

In the 91' Finals, Worthy played 40 mpg and led the Lakers in scoring - 19 on 47% - same as regular season.


Pippen averaged more points, more rebounds and more steals than ANY player on the lakers in this finals. And more assists than enyone except Magic.




Btw, pippen was a SF and there were tons of great wings in the early 90's.. MJ wins in 1990 with bird I guarantee (25/10/8 in 90').

And people forget that superathlete SF Jerome Kersey was a 20 ppg scorer and led the blazers to the 1990 Finals with 21 ppg (same as drexler) - obviously, if drexler can make the 90' Finals with 21 ppg as 2nd option, then MJ would make it with 37 ppg that he averaged in those same playoffs.. you just don't understand how NOT stacked mj's team was - virtually everybody made the Finals with worse stats than MJ.that proves his cast was the weakest.. :confusedshrug:. If guys make the Finals with weaker stats, then mj would make it with their cast with his better stats

Also, the following guys were all equal or better scorers than Pippen, with elite athleticism
to follow MJ's defensive example:

Larry Nance
Dominique
Sean Elliot
Reggie Lewis
Derrick McKey
Tony Campbell

And obviously, Derrick Coleman/Shawn Kemp were versatile and would've killed it next to mj


Nowhere have I said that there wasn't plenty of players as good or better than pippen. Just that there were no teams with two players as good or better than him. And definitely no teams with BOTH a legit superstar AND a player as good as him. This is the kind of team that needed to have existed to create some kind of rivalry with Jordan.

It should have been Barkley but his move to the suns came too late.

[3ball]

Pippen averaged more points, more rebounds and more steals than ANY player on the lakers in this finals. And more assists than enyone except Magic.





Nowhere have I said that there wasn't plenty of players as good or better than pippen. Just that there were no teams with two players as good or better than him. And definitely no teams with BOTH a legit superstar AND a player as good as him. This is the kind of team that needed to have existed to create some kind of rivalry with Jordan.

It should have been Barkley but his move to the suns came too late.
I just proved you wrong already

Drexler made the Finals by averaging only 21 ppg, with Jerome Kersey as the SF averaging the same... so obviously, MJ's 37 ppg would make the Finals with Kersey and the Blazers cast (MJ averaged 37 in the 90' PO).. and with mj's huge upgrade over Drexler, the blazers beat the Pistons easily

This proves how much weaker MJ's cast was - he couldn't get out of the 1st round averaging 21 ppg, let alone make the Finals.. only guys with stacked casts can make the Finals with 21 ppg like drexler did, and lebron in 2014 (22/6/5 in ecf)

you just don't understand how NOT stacked mj's team was - virtually everybody made the Finals with worse stats than MJ.. that proves his cast was the weakest.. . If guys make the Finals with weaker stats, then mj would make it with his better stats using their cast
.

[AussieSteve]

I just proved you wrong already

Drexler made the Finals by averaging only 21 ppg, with Jerome Kersey as the SF averaging the same... so obviously, MJ's 37 ppg would make the Finals with Kersey and the Blazers cast (MJ averaged 37 in the 90' PO).. and with mj's huge upgrade over Drexler, the blazers beat the Pistons easily

This proves how much weaker MJ's cast was - he couldn't get out of the 1st round averaging 21 ppg, let alone make the Finals.. only guys with stacked casts can make the Finals with 21 ppg like drexler did, and lebron in 2014 (22/6/5 in ecf)

you just don't understand how NOT stacked mj's team was - virtually everybody made the Finals with worse stats than MJ.. that proves his cast was the weakest.. . If guys make the Finals with weaker stats, then mj would make it with his better stats using their cast
.

Who on that Portland team was a legitimate superstar (ie you'd entertaintain an argument for them being one of the best 2 or 3 guys in the league) and which was 2nd fiddle who you consider to be as good a pippen?

[3ball]

Who on that Portland team was a legitimate superstar (ie you'd entertaintain an argument for them being one of the best 2 or 3 guys in the league) and which was 2nd fiddle who you consider to be as good a pippen?
The 1990 blazers had several guys better than 90' pippen

And obviously, their 90' cast was better than any of mj's from any year, because the star (Drexler) only needed to average 21 ppg to make a Finals run

You asked what wing compared to pippen - mj wins the ring with drexler's cast, or Bird's, or magic's, or isiah's or Payton's - they all needed much weaker stats and dominance to make the Finals than mj
.

[SpaceJam2]

What a fraud, claims he was around then, questions if you checked and does this:


Yeah Pippen made the all defensive team that year.


Penny was 1st team, but you foget Rodman made an all defensive team that season as well. Would have been an even matchup with Grant making all defense as well but he didn't play after game 1 of that series.


97 is the only thing in your entire quote accurate to the logic you're pushing here. 2 all nba players each for the jazz and bulls and 2 all defense as well. In 98? Stockton didn't make all nba or all defense while Scottie made both.


Payton was all league but remember Rodman was all defense that same season.


not even sure what this is supposed to mean:wtf:


He was but since you mentioned Pippen not making all league in 91' why no mention of Kj not making one the year he went against Mj? Logic much?

The real question is 3ball: Did you check?

:roll:

[SpaceJam2]

Who on that Portland team was a legitimate superstar (ie you'd entertaintain an argument for them being one of the best 2 or 3 guys in the league) and which was 2nd fiddle who you consider to be as good a pippen?

First he'll twist the question, then run away from it/deflect, and then he'll somehow bring up LeBron :lol Just you wait

[AussieSteve]

And aussie - we can't have a discussion if you think pippen was atop 2-3 player in the league - that's ridiculous.. he was never better than Shaq, Hakeem, Drob or even Ewing or Malone or Barkley [/B]

We're having different conversations.

During the bulls first three peat, Jordan was the best player in the league.

The next best imo were Barkley, Hakeem and Robinson. But for these three to be contenders, they needed a very good perimeter perimeter player as a wing man. In reality, none of them had this. As such, we never saw big Jordan vs "insert superstar name here" rivalries, because the other superstars were on trash teams compared to Jordan.

My question is which player could you have put on one of these guys' teams, who would be an equivalent second option to Pippen, so that we could get a true sense of Jordan's level relative to the next tier of players.

For example... were KJ and Tim Hardaway on Pippen's level? Or Stockton? Or Drexler? Or Mark Price? Or Hersey Hawkins? I'm trying to get an insight into how good people this pippen was relative to contemporary guards.

[3ball]

Penny was 1st team, but you foget Rodman made an all defensive team that season as well. Would have been an even matchup with Grant making all defense as well but he didn't play after game 1 of that series.


Penny destroyed Pippen though, and was better than 2nd three-peat Pip (who was actually quite awful)

And the bulls were blowing Orlando away before Grant got hurt in game 1 - not that it matters, because grant wasn't making the difference between the blowout sweep and Orlando victory





97 is the only thing in your entire quote accurate to the logic you're pushing here. 2 all nba players each for the jazz and bulls and 2 all defense as well. In 98? Stockton didn't make all nba or all defense in 98' while Scottie made both.


Because Stockton only played 64 games in 98'.. But he made all-star and all-nba in 99', while pippen didn't make either after 98'.. so Stockton was making all-nba long before and after pippen, hence him being ranked higher in ESPN's all-time rankings.

Furthermore, 98' Rodman wasn't the starter in the 98' playoffs and Pippen was hobbled - so that's the goat carry job by mj in 98' - kukoc at PF and hobbled Pip





Payton was all league but remember Rodman was all defense that same season.


Schrempf's all-nba in 95' was more meaningful because he severely outplayed Pippen in 96' Finals, and his all-nba was earned (not based on reputation like 2nd three-peat Pippen, who sucked)

Accolades are worthless if you get outplayed and/or you're undeserving/living off reputation... I'm sure you were annoyed when Kobe kept getting undeserved awards





He was but since you mentioned Pippen not making all league in 91' why no mention of Kj not making one the year he went against Mj?


KJ only played 49 games so he missed all-nba in 1993, just like lebron this year

In the Finals, Pippen outscored KJ by 4 points and MJ outscored Barkley by 16 (20 point total edge), but the suns outscored the bulls at each of the 3 thru 9 spots by a total of 20 (both teams averaged 113 ppg and played only 9 guys).. the suns were way more stacked than the Bulls, and this was common knowledge at the time





Yeah Pippen made the all defensive team in 91'


He wasn't an all-star or all-nba; worthy was

All-NBA > all-defense

Unless you want to credit all-defense Hughes for helping all-stars Lebron/Zydrunas make the playoffs in 06'..

lebron needed a 2-time all-star center, elite wing defender, and new coach/future COY just to make the playoffs in 06'... So that's 0-2 before Hughes/Brown joined in 06'





not even sure what this is supposed to mean


It means that Duncan averaged less ppg and usage than Robinson in 1998, so duncan was 2nd option

And obviously better than 2nd option Pippen.. But despite Pippen's inferiority to Duncan, the bulls beat the jazz and spurs lost, because MJ > DR..

Obviously, if MJ played like DR, then the bulls lose because pippen was < duncan... So good thing MJ > DR, or bulls lose to the jazz like the Spurs did

Hope that helps.. :confusedshrug:
.

[3ball]

they needed a very good perimeter player as a wing man. In reality, none of them had this.


Barkley had 2 all-star perimeter teammates - 93' Majerle was an all-star and all-defense, while KJ was 5x all-nba (only played 64 games in 93', so he missed it that year)

Again, it's common knowledge that the Suns were loaded so you obviously didn't watch back then..

in the 93' Finals, both teams averaged exactly 113.0 ppg and 106.7 drtg, so every ounce of mj's 41 ppg was needed - 41 is a Finals record, and it shows his cast produced a lot less than Phoenix's..

indeed, Pippen outscored KJ by 4 points and MJ outscored Barkley by 16 (20 point total edge), but the suns outscored the bulls at each of the 3 thru 9 spots by a total of 20 (both teams averaged 113 ppg and played only 9 guys)..





the other superstars were on trash teams compared to Jordan.


Vlade Divac and Sam Perkins were sophisticated bigs that each averaged 17/10 in the 1991 Finals - they were the best players after the Magic/Worthy and MJ/Pippen.. the Lakers also had 1990 all-star AC Green, who compared to Grant but was benched in favor of Vlade/Perkins.. Elden Campbell was a young stud and would've been the 4th best player on the Bulls

So Magic's Lakers were much more talented, which is why Magic didn't have to get MJ stats to make the Finals

And we've already discussed how Drexler made the 90' Finals averaging 19.8 ppg because he had numerous all-star and all-defense teammates (porter, duckworth, buck williams), while Kersey led the teaming in scoring until the Finals.

And that's what makes all your comments dumb as shit - we can mathematically prove that MJ had the weakest casts because he had to achieve the best stats.. #1 PPG, #1 PER, #1 WS/48.... And for all 6 rings, he was #1 in points for RS, PO and Finals - only Kareem and Shaq did this once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00'... Like, why did everyone else get to do less to win? Obviously, they had better casts..:confusedshrug:





My question is which player could you have put on one of these guys' teams, who would be an equivalent second option to Pippen, so that we could get a true sense of Jordan's level relative to the next tier of players.


Here's the guys that made all-nba over Pippen in 1991 - Dominique, Mullin, King, Worthy

Guys like Bird, Derrick Coleman, Larry Nance, Glen Rice and numerous others were also better... Sean Elliot, Reggie Lewis, Kemp and Derrick McKey were comparable, and many more

Also, many teams had better bigs than the bulls (better than Cartwright or Horace), guards (better than paxson), and bench (you probably can't name anyone on the bulls' bench).. So teams had better casts than the bulls, which is why everyone made the Finals or won chips with worse stats than MJ...

i.e. we already discussed how the Blazers had more talent than the bulls, since Drexler made the 1990 Finals averaging 20 ppg, with SF Kersey doing the same - so if Kersey was a sufficient SF for Drexler's 20 ppg to make the Finals - MJ's 30+ would've been overkill on that loaded team





were KJ and Tim Hardaway on Pippen's level? Or Stockton? Or Drexler? Or Mark Price? Or Hersey Hawkins?


All those guys were better than pippen offensively, and by significant margins - pippen got a lot of his offense off mj, and wasn't a good shot creator or shooter





I'm trying to get an insight into how good people this pippen was relative to contemporary guards.


But Pippen was not a guard, so your premise doesn't work.. his handle was basic and didn't break guys down off-the-dribble, so he started at forward his entire bulls career

As a forward, guys like Kemp, Derrick Coleman, Dominique and Bird were equal or better.. guys like Larry Nance, Sean Elliot, Reggie Lewis, and Derrick McKey were equal offensively, and had elite athleticism to follow MJ's example as good defenders (Nance was already a great defender and superior athlete to pippen)

And again, Jerome Kersey was a sufficient SF to make the 1990 Finals with Drexler averaging only 19.8 ppg - so MJ's 30+ would've been overkill.. it's clear that Pippen wasn't needed because they had better players at all the other spots, which is why Drexler could succeed with 20 ppg, and MJ needed 30+ everytime
.

[tpols]

the suns were winning 50+ games and perennially making the playoffs before barkley team hopped over to them. They were much better than what MJ initially developed and eventually grew into a super dynasty. barkley was just a choker and intangibly worse (practice, making teammates better) and it led to a much worse long term result despite similar/more help.

portland as well was stacked up around drexler... they were loaded with all star talent, with mj's boost in production over clyde and everybody else still playing to capacity, the blazers wouldve been the same dynasty the bulls were if not better.

there are quite a few of the tops team that he couldve joined the common denominator in all eventual success would be michael jordan.


Put him on the pacers with larry brown and that defense, theyd basically be the late 90s bulls.

[kennethgriffen]

pippen is only pippen because he was with MJ


obviously when you have a legendary career playing with a great player like MJ other guys with no success won't look as good

[And1AllDay]

pippen is only pippen because he was with MJ


obviously when you have a legendary career playing with a great player like MJ other guys with no success won't look as good

You gonna say the same about Kyrie/Bosh then ???

[AussieSteve]

Barkley had 2 all-star perimeter teammates - 93' Majerle was an all-star and all-defense, while KJ was 5x all-nba (only played 64 games in 93', so he missed it that year)

Again, it's common knowledge that the Suns were loaded so you obviously didn't watch back then..

in the 93' Finals, both teams averaged exactly 113.0 ppg and 106.7 drtg, so every ounce of mj's 41 ppg was needed - 41 is a Finals record, and it shows his cast produced a lot less than Phoenix's..

indeed, Pippen outscored KJ by 4 points and MJ outscored Barkley by 16 (20 point total edge), but the suns outscored the bulls at each of the 3 thru 9 spots by a total of 20 (both teams averaged 113 ppg and played only 9 guys)..



Vlade Divac and Sam Perkins were sophisticated bigs that each averaged 17/10 in the 1991 Finals - they were the best players after the Magic/Worthy and MJ/Pippen.. the Lakers also had 1990 all-star AC Green, who compared to Grant but was benched in favor of Vlade/Perkins.. Elden Campbell was a young stud and would've been the 4th best player on the Bulls

So Magic's Lakers were much more talented, which is why Magic didn't have to get MJ stats to make the Finals

And we've already discussed how Drexler made the 90' Finals averaging 19.8 ppg because he had numerous all-star and all-defense teammates (porter, duckworth, buck williams), while Kersey led the teaming in scoring until the Finals.

And that's what makes all your comments dumb as shit - we can mathematically prove that MJ had the weakest casts because he had to achieve the best stats.. #1 PPG, #1 PER, #1 WS/48.... And for all 6 rings, he was #1 in points for RS, PO and Finals - only Kareem and Shaq did this once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00'... Like, why did everyone else get to do less to win? Obviously, they had better casts..:confusedshrug:



Here's the guys that made all-nba over Pippen in 1991 - Dominique, Mullin, King, Worthy

Guys like Bird, Derrick Coleman, Larry Nance, Glen Rice and numerous others were also better... Sean Elliot, Reggie Lewis, Kemp and Derrick McKey were comparable, and many more

Also, many teams had better bigs than the bulls (better than Cartwright or Horace), guards (better than paxson), and bench (you probably can't name anyone on the bulls' bench).. So teams had better casts than the bulls, which is why everyone made the Finals or won chips with worse stats than MJ...

i.e. we already discussed how the Blazers had more talent than the bulls, since Drexler made the 1990 Finals averaging 20 ppg, with SF Kersey doing the same - so if Kersey was a sufficient SF for Drexler's 20 ppg to make the Finals - MJ's 30+ would've been overkill on that loaded team



All those guys were better than pippen offensively, and by significant margins - pippen got a lot of his offense off mj, and wasn't a good shot creator or shooter



But Pippen was not a guard, so your premise doesn't work.. his handle was basic and didn't break guys down off-the-dribble, so he started at forward his entire bulls career

As a forward, guys like Kemp, Derrick Coleman, Dominique and Bird were equal or better.. guys like Larry Nance, Sean Elliot, Reggie Lewis, and Derrick McKey were equal offensively, and had elite athleticism to follow MJ's example as good defenders (Nance was already a great defender and superior athlete to pippen)

And again, Jerome Kersey was a sufficient SF to make the 1990 Finals with Drexler averaging only 19.8 ppg - so MJ's 30+ would've been overkill.. it's clear that Pippen wasn't needed because they had better players at all the other spots, which is why Drexler could succeed with 20 ppg, and MJ needed 30+ everytime
.

You're literally impossible.

Q: Which guard would be an equivalent side kick for a PF/ C as Pippen was for Jordan?
3ball: pretty much any starting guard / sf in the league.

:biggums:


And how can KJ have been an equal side kick to pippen in 93 if pippen averaged more points, rebounds, assists, steals and block, with better efficiency. Ie. More of everything. As well as being the best defender on the court. KJ in 93 missed half the season and was not the same KJ he was in 92 or 94.

In the 92 finals pippen averaged more points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, with better efficiency, than the blazers 2nd option terry porter. As well as being the best defender on the court.

In the 91 finals pippen had more points and rebounds than every single laker. And more assists than all except magic. As well as being the best defender on the court.




Anyway, I'd have liked to see peak Barkley with an elite pg like Stockton or tim Hardaway go up against Jordan and Pippen.

[3ball]

Which guard would be an equivalent side kick for a PF/ C as Pippen was for Jordan?

Anyway, I'd have liked to see peak Barkley with an elite pg like Stockton or tim Hardaway go up against Jordan and Pippen.
basically, who cares about pippen - various 2nd options were equal or better as I described in detail, and most playoff opponents had a better cast overall, which is why MJ had to achieve goat stats to win

For example, would Barkley need to average 41 to beat the bulls like MJ needed to beat the suns?

No

Barkley only needed 25 ppg to play the bulls to a standstill in 93' (both teams averaged exactly 113.0 ppg and 106.7 ortg)... Otoh, MJ needed to average 41 to keep up with the suns because his cast was weaker

And that's why all you guys are misguided and looking at it backwards - MJ had to achieve the best stats to win, which proves his cast was the weakest.. who else had to have the #1 PER and PPG to win??? only MJ.. who else had to lead the league in points for the regular season, playoffs, and Finals to win their rings? Only MJ (all 6 rings), and Kareem/Shaq once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00'.
.

[AussieSteve]

basically, who cares about pippen - various 2nd options were equal or better as I described in detail, and most playoff opponents had a better cast overall, which is why MJ had to achieve goat stats to win
.

How many 2nd options have:
1. Averaged more points, rebounds and steals than every single player on the opposing team, and more assists tham all but one player, in a finals series? Or even just any playoff series?
2. Averaged more points on better efficiency, as well as more rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, than the opposing 2nd option (i.e. they outplayed the oposong 2nd option at every single aspect of the game) in a finals series? Or even just any playoff series?

Pippen achieve #1 in the 91 finals and 2 in both the 92 and 93 finals.

According to you:
1. Many 2nd options were capable of this during the early 90s
2. All the other superstars at the time had a guy like this on their team.

You, my friend, are delusional.

[Smoke117]

How many 2nd options have:
1. Averaged more points, rebounds and steals than every single player on the opposing team, and more assists tham all but one player, in a finals series? Or even just any playoff series?
2. Averaged more points on better efficiency, as well as more rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, than the opposing 2nd option (i.e. they outplayed the oposong 2nd option at every single aspect of the game) in a finals series? Or even just any playoff series?

Pippen achieve #1 in the 91 finals and 2 in both the 92 and 93 finals.

According to you:
1. Many 2nd options were capable of this during the early 90s
2. All the other superstars at the time had a guy like this on their team.

You, my friend, are delusional.

Again, it blows my mind that there are actually people like you who engage with this idiot. He's a mentally ill infant obsessed with a basketball player. You can't reason with him. Why do you even bother?

[SpaceJam2]

How many 2nd options have:
1. Averaged more points, rebounds and steals than every single player on the opposing team, and more assists tham all but one player, in a finals series? Or even just any playoff series?
2. Averaged more points on better efficiency, as well as more rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, than the opposing 2nd option (i.e. they outplayed the oposong 2nd option at every single aspect of the game) in a finals series? Or even just any playoff series?

Pippen achieve #1 in the 91 finals and 2 in both the 92 and 93 finals.

According to you:
1. Many 2nd options were capable of this during the early 90s
2. All the other superstars at the time had a guy like this on their team.

You, my friend, are delusional.

3ball caught again

https://i.postimg.cc/sgSJxZML/giphy.gif

[3ball]

According to you:
1.Many 2nd options were capable of this



They played much better than Pippen - Pippen was bad in nearly every big series the Bulls played



1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8% (2 pts, 1-10 in game 7)

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1994 ECSF vs NYN:. 21.7 on 40.5% (worst-ever 1st option w/ goat choke)

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%

1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%
1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2% (9.7 on 40.4% in ecf)





Pippen achieve #2 in both the 92 and 93 finals.



Stats in the 92' ECF:

XAVIER MCDANIEL - 19 on 50%
SCOTTIE..f PIPPEN - 16 on 40

Pippen was rattled, intimidated and avoiding eye contact with Xavier in Game 7:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif


Until the GOAT steps in and confronts the bully and saves Pippen from another migraine:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/508ldf.gif


Lebron never had to do that for wade or kyrie - if anything, it was the other way around.. :facepalm






According to you
2. All the other superstars at the time had a guy like this on their team.


Kemp did (Payton)

Malone did (Stockton)

Shaq did (Penny)

Magic did (Worthy)

Ewing did (Xavier)

Isiah did (Dumars)

Robinson did (Duncan)


And many more described earlier itt






How many 2nd options have:
1. Averaged more points rebounds and steals than every single player on the opposing team, and more assists tham all but one player, in a finals series? Or even just any playoff series?


Pippen did that for 1 of 6 Finals - his 20 ppg was basically matched by worthy and magic, and the bulls couldn't match the Lakers' 2 additional 17-point scorers (17/10 from both Perkins and Vlade)

So you can quit the act that pippen was so important when the Lakers had 4 guys playing on his level - the superior production from the Lakers cast is why MJ had to produce goat stats

You MJ haters and LeFraud lovers are wrong, scrambling, and ridiculous..
.

[SpaceJam2]

Crazy to think that MJ's third option was a 12-8-2 on 55% guy in Horrace Grant. Geeze, talk about having a stacked team.

Grant posted an EXTREMELY efficient ORtg of 130 in the 1991 playoffs but 3ball would have you believe "every team in the league had a guy like that" as well? :lol

By the way, yes Grant led the entire league that year in ORtg during the 1991 playoffs as a third option. Shall we scour the data bases to see how Kevin Love and Chris Bosh have done?

How many THIRD options ever put up numbers this good?

3 year best ORtg for third options:

Horrace Grant: 130, 127, 127 .. ('91, '92, '93) ... AVG = 128
Manu Ginobli: 124, 122, 115 .. ('05, '16, '06) ... AVG = 120.3
Kevin Love: 120, 118, 114 .. ('17, '15, '16) ... AVG = 117.3
Kareem Abdul: 119, 118, 113 .. ('87, '85, '83) ... AVG = 116.6
Chris Bosh: 119, 115, 111 .. ('14, '12, '11) ... AVG = 115
Draymond Green: 119, 113, 112 .. ('17, '16, '14) ... AVG = 114.6
Ray Allen: 117, 111, 110 .. ('08, '10, '09) ... AVG = 112.6


I mean, wow...So MJ has GOAT 2nd and GOAT 3rd options on his own team?

[AussieSteve]

They played much better than Pippen - Pippen was bad in nearly every big series the Bulls played



1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8% (2 pts, 1-10 in game 7)

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1994 ECSF vs NYN:. 21.7 on 40.5% (worst-ever 1st option w/ goat choke)

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%

1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%
1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2% (9.7 on 40.4% in ecf)




Stats in the 92' ECF:

XAVIER MCDANIEL - 19 on 50%
SCOTTIE..f PIPPEN - 16 on 40

Pippen was rattled, intimidated and avoiding eye contact with Xavier in Game 7:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif


Until the GOAT steps in and confronts the bully and saves Pippen from another migraine:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/508ldf.gif


Lebron never had to do that for wade or kyrie - if anything, it was the other way around.. :facepalm



Kemp did (Payton)

Malone did (Stockton)

Shaq did (Penny)

Magic did (Worthy)

Ewing did (Xavier)

Isiah did (Dumars)

Robinson did (Duncan)


And many more described earlier itt




Pippen did that for 1 of 6 Finals - his 20 ppg was basically matched by worthy and magic, and the bulls couldn't match the Lakers' 2 additional 17-point scorers (17/10 from both Perkins and Vlade)

So you can quit the act that pippen was so important when the Lakers had 4 guys playing on his level - the superior production from the Lakers cast is why MJ had to produce goat stats

You MJ haters and LeFraud lovers are wrong, scrambling, and ridiculous..
.

So let me get this straight... Pippen had ONE series out of the Bull's 12 during their first 3peat, where his oposong 2nd option performed better than him. One. And that was against a team who's 1st option was an All-NBA 3rd team tier player (Ewing being the third best centre and 5th - 6th best overall big in the league).

I rest my case.

Also, you are so bent on seeing people as either pro or anti Jordan that you've completely missed the theme of this thread.

Jordan is the GOAT. I'm.not trying to denigrate him. And this thread has literally nothing to do with LeBron. I'm just observing the fact that Jordan's 2nd option during his first 3peat was far better than any of the other top tier players at the time. And wondering who might have levelled the playing field for some of these other superstars when coming up against Jordan.

[kennethgriffen]

You gonna say the same about Kyrie/Bosh then ???


of course kyrie and bosh playing with lebron elevated their legacies too. people only have beef with how lebron teamed up with them and the fact that kyrie had to bail lebron out after he went 0 for 4 in the last 4 minutes of game 7


jordan gets the right to have most of the credit because he did it the right way. when you ring chase/collude you lose that privilege

[AintNoSunshine]

Pippen was the best defender, one of the best play maker, one of the best athlete at the time. He brings so much to the table, the only one thing he can't do consistently is shoot from range. Other than that he was damn near perfect.

[3ball]

Pippen had ONE series out of the Bull's 12 during their first 3peat, where his oposong 2nd option performed better than him. One.


1993 1st Round

Kevin. . Willis...- 16.7 on 47%
Scottie Pippen - 15.3 on 42%


1992 ECSF

Xavier McDaniel - 19 on 50%
Scottie.. Pippen' - 16 on 40%


Nearly all championship teams have the better 2nd option, but Pippen was the worse 2nd option in most series that MJ played from 1996-1998 (3 rings), and also 1988-1990 (nearly made the Finals twice)

Otoh, guys like Lebron, Magic and Bird had better 2nd and 3rd options in most series for all their championship runs.. none of them won 3 rings with the worse 2nd option like MJ did from 96-98'

So the narrative that I've cornered and reduced your thread to (that mj had SOME help and he didn't do it alone) is moot because he clearly had the least help, which is why he had to produce the goat stats





And this thread has nothing to do with Lebron.


Yeah right. You're a slow Bron stan that's grasping at straws now that his Leastern conference has been exposed

Too bad

Kyrie scored just as much as Lebron in 2016 and was the closer - when did MJ have a 28 ppg closer?.. :kobe:...

Furthermore, Wade got 27 ppg in 2011 (10 pts more than Lebron)..

Ultimately, Lebron had 2nd options that scored within 2-5 points of him in Finals wins and had 3 different closers (kyrie, wade, ray), while MJ had to score 10-20 more than Pippen for all his Finals and be the closer.





I'm just observing the fact that Jordan's 2nd option during his first 3peat was far better than any of the other top tier players at the time


Except pippen didn't make any 1st team all-nba in the first 3-peat and wasn't even an all-star in 1991, thus proving you wrong - he almost cost the bulls the 1992 championship against the Knicks until MJ saved the day in Game 7

A lot of guys were better than 1st three-peat Pippen and you're just revising history, unsuccessfully itt





And wondering who might have levelled the playing field for some of these other superstars when coming up against Jordan


Nearly all championship teams have the better 2nd option, but Pippen was the worse 2nd option in most series that MJ played from 1996-1998 (3 rings), and also 1988-1990 (nearly made the Finals twice)

Otoh, guys like Lebron, Magic and Bird had better 2nd and 3rd options in most series for all their championship runs.. none of them won 3 rings with the worse 2nd option like MJ did from 96-98'

So the narrative that I've cornered and reduced your thread to (that mj had SOME help and didn't do it alone) is moot because he clearly had the least help, which is why he had to produce the goat stats





in the 1st three-peat, who might have levelled the playing field for some of these other superstars when coming up against Jordan


How about Xavier McDaniel and Kevin Willis?

And how about various teams' 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th options?

The Lakers had Magic and Worthy's 19 ppg to match Pippen's 20, and they also had 2 bigs getting 17/10 that the bulls did NOT match, except for MJ's goat stats

So you can rest your case.. because you were destroyed
.

[SpaceJam2]

Crazy to think that MJ's third option was a 12-8-2 on 55% guy in Horrace Grant. Geeze, talk about having a stacked team.

Grant posted an EXTREMELY efficient ORtg of 130 in the 1991 playoffs but 3ball would have you believe "every team in the league had a guy like that" as well? :lol

By the way, yes Grant led the entire league that year in ORtg during the 1991 playoffs as a third option. Shall we scour the data bases to see how Kevin Love and Chris Bosh have done?

How many THIRD options ever put up numbers this good?

3 year best ORtg for third options:

Horrace Grant: 130, 127, 127 .. ('91, '92, '93) ... AVG = 128
Manu Ginobli: 124, 122, 115 .. ('05, '16, '06) ... AVG = 120.3
Kevin Love: 120, 118, 114 .. ('17, '15, '16) ... AVG = 117.3
Kareem Abdul: 119, 118, 113 .. ('87, '85, '83) ... AVG = 116.6
Chris Bosh: 119, 115, 111 .. ('14, '12, '11) ... AVG = 115
Draymond Green: 119, 113, 112 .. ('17, '16, '14) ... AVG = 114.6
Ray Allen: 117, 111, 110 .. ('08, '10, '09) ... AVG = 112.6


I mean, wow...So MJ has GOAT 2nd and GOAT 3rd options on his own team?


2ball is scrambling on this one, now, too :eek:

[3ball]

2ball is scrambling on this one, now, too :eek:
Not worth responding to.. learn to make a substantive argument.. ortg of 3rd options? Are you serious?

I'm targeting the OP, and my last post took him down

[ballinhun8]

No Bulls fan would ever disrespect or discredit Pippen's importantance the way 3ball is right now.




But some moron claiming a guy averaging 12/8 making a team stacked??? Fookin hilarious

[3ball]

No Bulls fan would ever disrespect or discredit Pippen's importantance the way 3ball is right now.




But some moron claiming a guy averaging 12/8 making a team stacked??? Fookin hilarious
I'm not disrespecting pippen and acknowledged what was accurate about Pip

Tell me what part of my last takedown of the OP (post #59) is inaccurate

I'll wait
.

[SpaceJam2]

Not worth responding to.. learn to make a substantive argument.. ortg of 3rd options? Are you serious?

I'm targeting the OP, and my last post took him down

Of course you wont. You got bodied again.

What's so bad about Jordan now being the #2 best player ever? The second GOAT? Is that really so bad for you to accept?

[SpaceJam2]

No Bulls fan would ever disrespect or discredit Pippen's importantance the way 3ball is right now.



He's clearly not a Bulls fan he is an MJ fan. Just like all the "Lakers" fans that are just butt hurt Kobe fans.

It happens, but at least LeBron fans admit they are fans of a player, not like MJ and Kobe fans :confusedshrug:

[LostCause]

EDIT: The 93 suns were undoubtedly the best team Jordan beat, with KJ as the #2 option


I'm not really sure if that's true

I mean, in the sense of just measuring "talent" on a team then sure. Personally, I think the 96 Sonics team was better than the 93 Suns

Payton/Kemp/Shcrempf/Hawkins with Perkins coming off the bench. Lot of folks just don't remember how good Schrempf actually was (He was an all-star the year before and after 96). Also led the league in ORtg and was All-NBA 3rd team in 95, playing for Seattle

The names on the Suns might register more with ppl today, but that Sonics team was just as good if not better IMO largely due to their defense (2nd best Defense in the league behind the historic 96 Bulls, 8th best Offense)

[AussieSteve]

Not worth responding to.. learn to make a substantive argument.. ortg of 3rd options? Are you serious?

I'm targeting the OP, and my last post took him down

I'm not usually one for emojis, but...

:roll:


I don't live on here like you do, so you'll have to wait for an actual reply. But, spoiler alert... you're an idiot.

[SpaceJam2]

I'm not usually one for emojis, but...

:roll:


I don't live on here like you do, so you'll have to wait for an actual reply. But, spoiler alert... you're an idiot.

I think the truth is finally coming out and he doesn't like it :lol

[AussieSteve]

Blah blah blah.


.

So let's recap.

I asked which guards (note guards) would be an equivalent 2nd option for a top tier C / PF as Pippen was for Jordan.

Your answer was that all the other top tier players already had 2nd options who were better than Pippen. Pressed for evidence, you sited Xavier McDaniel (PF/SF) and Kevin Willis (PF/C). Granted they were worthy all stars for the one season in which they were all stars, but i have a couple comments.

1. They were not guards, so... please pay attention to the thread topic
2. They were not second options to top tier players, but to guys who were a rung or two below the Barkleys, Robinsons and Hakeems of the league.
3. They clearly were not actually as good as Pippen
4. The fact that you can only identify two out of 12 playoff series during the first 3peat where pippen was outscored by his opposing second option, when:
a. Scoring was probably the weakest part of Pippen's game and
b. Pippen had Jordan attempting 28 field goals a game in the 93 playoffs, far more than any other first option in the league

pretty much proves my contention that Pippen was just about the best second option going around at the time.

So, thanks for helping me establish how great Pippen was. Do you have have thoughts on which guards would have made for a more level playing field between say the 1990 or 91 Bulls and 76ers? Or do you think Hersey Hawkins was as good as Pippen too? I think a guy who could make plays and hit an outside shot consistently in place of Hersey would have made for a very interesting series.

[SpaceJam2]

So let's recap.

I asked which guards (note guards) would be an equivalent 2nd option for a top tier C / PF as Pippen was for Jordan.

Your answer was that all the other top tier players already had 2nd options who were better than Pippen. Pressed for evidence, you sited Xavier McDaniel (PF/SF) and Kevin Willis (PF/C). Granted they were worthy all stars for the one season in which they were all stars, but i have a couple comments.

1. They were not guards, so... please pay attention to the thread topic
2. They were not second options to top tier players, but to guys who were a rung or two below the Barkleys, Robinsons and Hakeems of the league.
3. They clearly were not actually as good as Pippen
4. The fact that you can only identify two out of 12 playoff series during the first 3peat where pippen was outscored by his opposing second option, when:
a. Scoring was probably the weakest part of Pippen's game and
b. Pippen had Jordan attempting 28 field goals a game in the 93 playoffs, far more than any other first option in the league

pretty much proves my contention that Pippen was just about the best second option going around at the time.

So, thanks for helping me establish how great Pippen was. Do you have have thoughts on which guards would have made for a more level playing field between say the 1990 or 91 Bulls and 76ers? Or do you think Hersey Hawkins was as good as Pippen too? I think a guy who could make plays and hit an outside shot consistently in place of Hersey would have made for a very interesting series.

Excellent post and recap :applause:

[3ball]

So let's recap.

I asked which guards (note guards) would be an equivalent 2nd option for a top tier C / PF as Pippen was for Jordan.


Why would you ask for guards when Pippen was a forward?

That alone makes your question not worth answering and dumb

And the reason why you can't respond to my post is because it wasn't opinion - I simply informed you of the facts, which I'll repeat here:



Nearly all championship teams have the better 2nd option, but Pippen was the worse 2nd option in most series that MJ played from 1996-1998 (3 rings), and also 1988-1990 (nearly made the Finals twice)

Otoh, guys like Lebron, Magic and Bird had better 2nd and 3rd options in most series for all their championship runs.. none of them won 3 rings with the worse 2nd option like MJ did from 96-98'

So the narrative that I've cornered and reduced your thread to (that mj had SOME help and didn't do it alone) is moot because he clearly had the least help, which is why he had to produce the goat stats


Again, there's nothing to refute there.. keep digging your hole baby boy

[sdot_thadon]

Why would you ask for guards when Pippen was a forward?

That alone makes your question not worth answering and dumb

And the reason why you can't respond to my post is because it wasn't opinion - I simply informed you of the facts, which I'll repeat here:
I'm pretty sure the point was the other superstar level guys during the 1st 3peat are frontcourt guys. Mj was a backcourt guy with a frontcourt sidekick, so he inverted the pairing for the other guys. I'm pretty sure that wasn't too complicated for the rest of us, them goalposts man.......

[And1AllDay]

So let's recap.

I asked which guards (note guards) would be an equivalent 2nd option for a top tier C / PF as Pippen was for Jordan.

Your answer was that all the other top tier players already had 2nd options who were better than Pippen. Pressed for evidence, you sited Xavier McDaniel (PF/SF) and Kevin Willis (PF/C). Granted they were worthy all stars for the one season in which they were all stars, but i have a couple comments.

1. They were not guards, so... please pay attention to the thread topic
2. They were not second options to top tier players, but to guys who were a rung or two below the Barkleys, Robinsons and Hakeems of the league.
3. They clearly were not actually as good as Pippen
4. The fact that you can only identify two out of 12 playoff series during the first 3peat where pippen was outscored by his opposing second option, when:
a. Scoring was probably the weakest part of Pippen's game and
b. Pippen had Jordan attempting 28 field goals a game in the 93 playoffs, far more than any other first option in the league

pretty much proves my contention that Pippen was just about the best second option going around at the time.

So, thanks for helping me establish how great Pippen was. Do you have have thoughts on which guards would have made for a more level playing field between say the 1990 or 91 Bulls and 76ers? Or do you think Hersey Hawkins was as good as Pippen too? I think a guy who could make plays and hit an outside shot consistently in place of Hersey would have made for a very interesting series.

:eek:

[AussieSteve]

Why would you ask for guards when Pippen was a forward?

That alone makes your question not worth answering and dumb

And the reason why you can't respond to my post is because it wasn't opinion - I simply informed you of the facts, which I'll repeat here:



Nearly all championship teams have the better 2nd option, but Pippen was the worse 2nd option in most series that MJ played from 1996-1998 (3 rings), and also 1988-1990 (nearly made the Finals twice)

Otoh, guys like Lebron, Magic and Bird had better 2nd and 3rd options in most series for all their championship runs.. none of them won 3 rings with the worse 2nd option like MJ did from 96-98'

So the narrative that I've cornered and reduced your thread to (that mj had SOME help and didn't do it alone) is moot because he clearly had the least help, which is why he had to produce the goat stats


Again, there's nothing to refute there.. keep digging your hole baby boy

What about guys like Barkley, Hakeem and Robinson during the bulls first 3peat?

[And1AllDay]

What about guys like Barkley, Hakeem and Robinson during the bulls first 3peat?


Uh...oh...:eek:

[3ball]

.
Pippen was bad in nearly every big series the Bulls played



1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8% (2 pts, 1-10 in game 7)

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1994 ECSF vs NYN:. 21.7 on 40.5% (worst-ever 1st option w/ goat choke)

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%

1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%
1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2% (9.7 on 40.4% in ecf)


Pippen's stats during 96-98' playoffs - 17 on 40.8%
.

[3ball]

What about guys like Barkley, Hakeem and Robinson during the bulls first 3peat?

Nearly all championship teams have the better 2nd option, but Pippen was the worse 2nd option in most series that MJ played from 1996-1998 (3 rings), and also 1988-1990 (nearly made the Finals twice)

Otoh, guys like Lebron, Magic and Bird had better 2nd and 3rd options in most series for all their championship runs.. none of them won 3 rings with the worse 2nd option like MJ did from 96-98'

So the narrative that I've cornered and reduced your thread to (that mj had SOME help and didn't do it alone) is moot because he clearly had the least help, which is why he had to produce the goat stats

Again, there's nothing to refute there.. keep digging your hole baby boy.

[AussieSteve]

Nearly all championship teams have the better 2nd option, but Pippen was the worse 2nd option in most series that MJ played from 1996-1998 (3 rings), and also 1988-1990 (nearly made the Finals twice)

Otoh, guys like Lebron, Magic and Bird had better 2nd and 3rd options in most series for all their championship runs.. none of them won 3 rings with the worse 2nd option like MJ did from 96-98'

So the narrative that I've cornered and reduced your thread to (that mj had SOME help and didn't do it alone) is moot because he clearly had the least help, which is why he had to produce the goat stats

Again, there's nothing to refute there.. keep digging your hole baby boy.

Just answer the question!?

[3ball]

Just answer the question!?
I did

And again, pippen isn't a guard, so i shouldn't have even answered it

[AussieSteve]

I did

And again, pippen isn't a guard, so i shouldn't have even answered it

1991

Jordan + pippen

vs

Barkley + ............

Who's the 2nd option that nets out with Pippen, thereby allowing a genuine Jordan vs Barkley showdown.

And don't you dare say Hersey = Scottie.

[TommyGriffin]

What about guys like Barkley, Hakeem and Robinson during the bulls first 3peat?
Let me guess. You

[AussieSteve]

[QUOTE=TommyGriffin]Let me guess. You

[SpaceJam2]

KJ was great. He was a good first option, let alone 2nd. But in 93 he was injured and when the bulls played the suns he was awful. 93 pippen >>> 93 KJ

Yikes :eek:

[3ball]

1991

Jordan + pippen

vs

Barkley + ............


1991

KJ - #7 in MVP voting, 3x all-nba, 2x all-star
Pip - 1x all-star, 1x all-nba


Anything else my young friend who never watched?

[SpaceJam2]

1991

KJ - #7 in MVP voting, 3x all-nba, 2x all-star
Pip - 1x all-star, 1x all-nba


Anything else my young friend who never watched?

Pip in 94
-55 wins
-3rd in MVP voting

How many times did KJ lead and do this? I'll wait..

[3ball]

Pip in 94
-55 wins
-3rd in MVP voting

How many times did KJ lead and do this? I'll wait..
KJ won 53-55 games with the Suns from 89-92', which includes leading the Suns in scoring/assists while demolishing Magic's favored Lakers in the 1990 WCSF to make the WCF (where he lost to Kersey's Blazers)..

KJ also made the 89' WCF and was top dog on the 55-win 91' team... Btw, Hornacek led the Suns to 55 wins in 1992 as leading scorer.. indeed, Barkley was added to a 55-win team

KJ could carry teams better because he led Pippen in usage (finishing plays) and demolished him in assist percentage (finding the finisher).. Here's their other stats:


RS

KJ:.. 17.9.. 3.3.. 9.1.. 58.5 ts.. 118 ortg.. 20.7 PER.. 0.178 ws/48
Pip:. 16.2.. 6.4.. 5.2.. 53.6 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.6 PER.. 0.146 ws/48


PO

KJ:.. 19.3.. 3.3.. 8.9.. 55.7 ts.. 113 ortg.. 19.1 PER.. 0.117 ws/48
Pip:. 17.5.. 7.6.. 5.0.. 52.4 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.4 PER.. 0.140 ws/48
.

[AussieSteve]

KJ won 53-55 games with the Suns from 89-92', which includes leading the Suns in scoring/assists while demolishing Magic's favored Lakers in the 1990 WCSF to make the WCF (where he lost to Kersey's Blazers)..

KJ also made the 89' WCF and was top dog on the 55-win 91' team... Btw, Hornacek led the Suns to 55 wins in 1992 as leading scorer.

KJ could carry teams better because he led Pippen in usage (finishing plays) and demolished him in assist percentage.. Here's their other stats:


RS

KJ:.. 17.9.. 3.3.. 9.1.. 58.5 ts.. 118 ortg.. 20.7 PER.. 0.178 ws/48
Pip:. 16.2.. 6.4.. 5.2.. 53.6 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.6 PER.. 0.146 ws/48


PO

KJ:.. 19.3.. 3.3.. 8.9.. 55.7 ts.. 113 ortg.. 19.1 PER.. 0.117 ws/48
Pip:. 17.5.. 7.6.. 5.0.. 52.4 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.4 PER.. 0.140 ws/48
.

Can you please compare KJ's and Pippen's 93 finals stats.

Just points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks and your preferred efficiency metric will do. If KJ was the superior second option then surely he'd have led pippen in at keast one of these.

I'm sure he "demolished pippen in assist percentage", so maybe include that stat too.

Thanks.

[3ball]

Can you please compare KJ's and Pippen's 93 finals stats.

Just points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks and your preferred efficiency metric will do. If KJ was the superior second option then surely he'd have led pippen in at keast one of these.

I'm sure he "demolished pippen in assist percentage", so maybe include that stat too.

Thanks.
KJ >>>>

It's obvious

Pippen was simply inflated by the rings, which resulted from MJ's ability to carry a team despite pip's often anemic offense.. see the first post on this page.. :cheers:

[AussieSteve]

KJ >>>>

It's obvious

Pippen was simply inflated by the rings, which resulted from MJ's ability to carry a team despite pip's often anemic offense.. see the first post on this page.. :cheers:

Never mind, I had a look for you.

Pippen had more points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks and a better scoring efficiency than KJ in the 93 finals.

By you logic (ie. Xavier McDaniel and Kevin Willis > Pippen because they scored more than him one series) then pippen is literally better at every single aspect of the game than KJ.

[SpaceJam2]

Never mind, I had a look for you.

Pippen had more points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks and a better scoring efficiency than KJ in the 93 finals.

By you logic (ie. Xavier McDaniel and Kevin Willis > Pippen because they scored more than him one series) then pippen is literally better at every single aspect of the game than KJ.

:eek:

[iamgine]

I'd say prime Pippen's impact is like 97-98 David Robinson. Fresh off his injury, Robinson was not as good as before but still an all star, all NBA, All D, getting DPOY and MVP votes.

[AussieSteve]

Here are some epic playoff performances by Barkley that were not enough to get a win against the Bulls because Jordan's team mates outperformed Barkley's.


1990 ECSF

Game 1
Barkley: 30pts on 21 fga, 20reb (9orb), 4ast, 2stl, 2blk, 3tov

Jordan: 39 points on 30fga. Rest of Bulls: 25/58 = 43fg%. Rest of 76ers: 20 / 58 = 34fg%

This game is just open brick after open brick by Barkley's team mates, after he draws the double.


1991 ECSF

Game 1
34pts on 13 fga, 11reb (5orb), 2ast, 1stl, 0blk, 0tov

Jordan: 29 points on 15fga. Rest of Bulls: 32 / 59 = 54%fg. Rest of 76ers: 18 / 62 = 29%fg

This game was arguably Barkley's all time best playoff performance through 3 quarters, but the rest of his team were so bad that they were down by 20 at that stage, so he sat out the entire 4th.


Game 5
Barkley: 30pts on 20fga, 8reb (1orb), 7ast, 2stl, 1blk, 1tov

Jordan: 38 points on 31fga. Rest of Bulls: 27/54 = 50fg%. Rest of 76ers: 24 / 56 = 43fg%


1993 finals

Game 2
Barkley: 42pts on 26 fga, 13reb (6orb), 4ast, 1stl, 1blk, 2tov

Jordan: 42 points on 36fga. Rest of Bulls: 27/53 = 51fg%. Rest of 76ers: 27 / 62 = 44fg%


Game 4
Barkley: 32pts on 19 fga, 12reb (3orb), 10ast, 3stl, 1blk, 1tov

Jordan: 55 points on 37fga. Rest of Bulls: 23/46 = 50fg%. Rest of 76ers: 28 / 60 = 47fg%


I know that Jordan was great in all of these games too. But in all of these 5 bulls wins, Jordan got more help than Barkley, and that was ultimately the difference. Give Barkley a guard of Pippen's calibre, who can find the open man more often, or hit the open shot more regularly than Hawkins or 93 KJ (who was pretty trash), and he probably wins at least 3 or 4 out of these 5 games, if not all of them... And probably has multiple rings between 1990 and 1993.

[brooks_thompson]

I would've loved to see Stockton and Jordan play together. I'm pretty sure Jordan would've loved Stockton; he have called him Stock all the time and wouldve pressured him to go out gambling with him and Oak.

[AussieSteve]

Pippen sucks and Jordan had no help. Here's some irrelevant and off topic stats to not convince anyone.



@3ball.

Conceding defeat?

If the other superstars had more help than Jordan, why did the Bulls keep beating Barkley even when he was the dominant player on the court?

[3ball]

@3ball.

Conceding defeat?

If the other superstars had more help than Jordan, why did the Bulls keep beating Barkley even when he was the dominant player on the court?
I quit because I won the thread about 3 times already.

MJ had a worse cast than Barkley in 90' and 93', so he had to average 45 and 41 in those series.. In 1991, Barkley's Sixers had begun their decline (inspired by jordan's 1-man butt-whuppin in 90') and pippen took another step, so Barkley's cast was worse

[NBAGOAT]

Sounds like Stockton, Malone unfortunately wasn

[TheCorporation]

Who? No one

https://i.postimg.cc/kgcsK6qw/No-Pip-No-Chip.jpg

[3ball]

.
KJ won 53-55 games with the Suns from 89-92', which includes making the 89' WCF and demolishing Magic's favored Lakers to make the 90' WCF..

indeed, Barkley was added to a 55-win team

KJ could carry teams better because he led Pippen in usage (finishing plays) and assist percentage (finding the finisher).. Here's their other stats:



RS

KJ:.. 17.9.. 3.3.. 9.1.. 58.5 ts.. 118 ortg.. 20.7 PER.. 0.178 ws/48
Pip:. 16.2.. 6.4.. 5.2.. 53.6 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.6 PER.. 0.146 ws/48


PO

KJ:.. 19.3.. 3.3.. 8.9.. 55.7 ts.. 113 ortg.. 19.1 PER.. 0.117 ws/48
Pip:. 17.5.. 7.6.. 5.0.. 52.4 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.4 PER.. 0.140 ws/48


Similarly, Jordan carried Pippen by finishing more plays (usage) and finding the finishers (assist %):



91-93' Playoffs

MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 34 on 52%.. 6.6 apg.. 2.9 TO.. 31.1 ast%.. 36.1 usg.. 120 ortg.. 29.5 PER
Pip (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 20 on 47%.. 6.1 apg.. 3.4 TO.. 23.3 ast%.. 24.9 usg.. 109 ortg..19.6 PER


96-98' Playoffs

MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 31.4 on 45.9%.. 4.1 apg.. 2.3 TO.. 22.3 ast%.. 35.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 27.3 PER
Pip (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 17.6 on 40.8%.. 5.0 apg.. 2.7 TO.. 22.0 ast%.. 23.4 usg.. 109 ortg.. 19.0 PER


Goat scoring load, team-leading passer, goat defender at position, goat clutch = GOAT (easily)
.

[paksat]

I can't believe you people give pippen so much credit

the guy didn't jump up to 30ppg when mj left, that should tell you something

the guy also didn't win a championship in mj's absence

so many of you prop him up to be a top tier player, he should have proved it then

[And1AllDay]

I can't believe you people give pippen so much credit

the guy didn't jump up to 30ppg when mj left, that should tell you something

the guy also didn't win a championship in mj's absence

so many of you prop him up to be a top tier player, he should have proved it then

:oldlol:

93 Bulls = 57 wins (Jordan)
94 Bulls = 55 wins (No Jordan)

[Vino24]

I can't believe you people give pippen so much credit

the guy didn't jump up to 30ppg when mj left, that should tell you something

the guy also didn't win a championship in mj's absence

so many of you prop him up to be a top tier player, he should have proved it then
first MJ retirement they only dropped 2 games. MJ in his prime is only worth a 2 game impact.

[paksat]

:oldlol:

93 Bulls = 57 wins (Jordan)
94 Bulls = 55 wins (No Jordan)

so you highlight what I said ( has NOTHING to do with wins total ), and then you..

..highlight wins total

[paksat]

first MJ retirement they only dropped 2 games. MJ in his prime is only worth a 2 game impact.

you're not even worth my time with caveman thinking like this

something like 80% of the human species says MJ is the greatest, go argue with someone stupid enough to engage you

[NBAGOAT]

I can't believe you people give pippen so much credit

the guy didn't jump up to 30ppg when mj left, that should tell you something

the guy also didn't win a championship in mj's absence

so many of you prop him up to be a top tier player, he should have proved it then

Op is not throwing out guys like Hakeem and Barkley and Malone as replacements. He

[paksat]

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT]Op is not throwing out guys like Hakeem and Barkley and Malone as replacements. He

[NBAGOAT]

Tell the alt army to stay on subject then

You

[andgar923]

Every single one of these Pip arguments are idiotic because Pippen wouldn't be Pippen without MJ, period.

[3ball]

You’re the one who started with the pippen is overrated because he wasn’t a 30ppg scorer or lead a team to a title, it was after that that the alts responded. Also, you don’t say anything about 3bakl saying kersey was better lol
I never said Kersey was better, but his best years compare to Pippen's normal years - did pippen ever lead his team in playoff scoring while making the Finals like Kersey did in 1990?.. Drexler made the Finals averaging 18 ppg that year, while Kersey was the #1 option - those blazers were loaded and it shows that Kersey was a high-level player like Pippen

Kersey's Blazers beat beat KJ's Suns in the WCF (who had just beaten Magic's 1 seed).. And yes prime KJ > Pip

[FKAri]

Clyde or Mitch would've definitely been an equivalent backcourt sidekick to compliment Pippen. Pippen/Reggie works too.

Great thread OP :applause:

[3ball]

Clyde or Mitch would've definitely been an equivalent backcourt sidekick to compliment Pippen. Pippen/Reggie works too.

Great thread OP :applause:


Could they have led the league in scoring?

Because that's what the Bulls needed from their #1 option every time they won

Has any other team ever won with the league scoring champ?

[egokiller]

Can you imagine Pippen in today's relaxed defensive rules where he's not even allowed to hand check? He wouldn't be any better than Kawhi on defense but would be a monster on offense. :applause: