We'd have real goat debate if Lebron won in 2009

[3ball]

It's a big if, but that 2009 run (RS, PO, and Finals) would've been as good, maybe better than any ring MJ won

Unfortunately, Lebron couldn't elevate his heavily-favored 1 seed to a higher level of basketball than Dwight Howard

More than any other series, the 09 ECF proves everything I've ever said about Lebron because the underdog Magic weren't the Durant Warriors and stacked with better talent - they just played better BASKETBALL than Lebron's team..

That's on lebron for not elevating the team over an opponent they were supposed to beat.. That's why MJ was better - his teams always played to their ceiling (never lost when expected to win), because his style of play, fundamentals, and shooting was superior.. in addition to the intangibles of leadership, clutch and stamina

And we know lebron lost that series in part because he opted to guard 6'2" Courtney Lee instead of Hedo or Rashard where he'd have far more impact - this boosted his energy for offensive stats, but helped lose the series.. #winningoverstats.. MJ pursued stats like everyone else, but never put them over winning, and infact sacrificed them TO win

2009 was the beginning of his inferiority to MJ because it set the seeds for team-hopping... Certainly if lebron won in 2009 and started a dynasty - that's mj-level.. even if he still team-hopped after winning in 09', people would give him credit for the 09' win... but ultimately, he came nowhere near the ring in 09 because his skills couldn't elevate his team to better basketball than Dwight - even Dwight can beat westbrooking.. :oldlol:
.

[And1AllDay]

Mike was out the league by 2009 so how would he make a better case to pass The Consensus goat LeBron

https://i.postimg.cc/9fwk6R53/Aaajjj1554481851877.jpg

[kennethgriffen]

lebron losing to the magic and dwight coward to prevent a kobe/lebron matchup in the ONE and ONLY year both were in their prime is actually worse than the 2011 meltdown IMO

[3ball]

https://i.postimg.cc/9fwk6R53/Aaajjj1554481851877.jpg


Honestly, that pic isn't that funny, or even true.. Wade > Pippen.. Bosh > Horace






Mike was out the league by 2009 so how would he make a better case to pass The Consensus goat LeBron


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-05-2019/RLGyq8.gif



MJ just played basketball better - see the 09 ECF

[And1AllDay]

lebron losing to the magic and dwight coward to prevent a kobe/lebron matchup in the ONE and ONLY year both were in their prime is actually worse than the 2011 meltdown IMO

I wish Kobe made it in 2007 so we could have whooped that Bron Boy but Bron was there in teh Finals waiting for us Kobe boys :(

[And1AllDay]

Honestly, that pic isn't that funny, or even true.. Wade > Pippen.. Bosh > Horace




https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-05-2019/RLGyq8.gif



MJ just played basketball better - see the 09 ECF

This supposed to be credible with Larry at 3

w t f

[3ball]

This supposed to be credible with Larry at 3

w t f


It's the most recent professional polling that was done.. and by Business Insider

And they break it down by age - MJ beats lebron handily even among young people

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/jordan-lebron-goat-debate-americans-jordan-2019-3


Btw, 2009 was the beginning of his inferiority to MJ because it set the seeds for team-hopping... whereas if he won in 2009 and started a dynasty - that's mj-level

[And1AllDay]

It's the most recent professional polling that was done.. and by Business Insider

And they break it down by age - MJ beats lebron handily even among young people

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/jordan-lebron-goat-debate-americans-jordan-2019-3


Btw, 2009 was the beginning of his inferiority to MJ because it set the seeds for team-hopping... whereas if he won in 2009 and started a dynasty - that's mj-level

Who was Brons Pippen in 2007 2008 2009

[SouBeachTalents]

Honestly, that pic isn't that funny, or even true.. Wade > Pippen.. Bosh > Horace




https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-05-2019/RLGyq8.gif



MJ just played basketball better - see the 09 ECF
So LeBron's the 2nd GOAT? Cool

[3ball]

Who was Brons Pippen in 2007 2008 2009
Who was Dwight's

[And1AllDay]

So LeBron's the 2nd GOAT? Cool

Exactly :lol

HE IS NOT THAT GOOD HE IS ONLY SECOND GOODEST EVER

[ArbitraryWater]

It's a big if, but that 2009 run (RS, PO, and Finals) would've been as good, maybe better than any ring MJ won

Unfortunately, Lebron couldn't elevate his heavily-favored 1 seed to a higher level of basketball than Dwight Howard
.

sounds legit

[Manny98]

Honestly, that pic isn't that funny, or even true.. Wade > Pippen.. Bosh > Horace




https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-05-2019/RLGyq8.gif



MJ just played basketball better - see the 09 ECF
LeBron consensus top 2 :applause:

[SpaceJam2]

So LeBron's the 2nd GOAT? Cool


Exactly. So wait then, dumbass 3ball always has LebRon "outside the top 25" while most have him 1, 2 or 3 so basically by us having MJ at #2 is closer to reality than 3ball thereby rendering 3ball's opinion useless.

So LeBron is more likely #1 then MJ is #1 due to crazy person opinion being so far off/skewed.

https://i.postimg.cc/CKxTpwg4/4a4.gif

[Celtics 1825]

If LeBron won in 09 I'd have a hard time putting MJ above him, I would've probably had to put them 1A and 1B

But still, top 5 is a great feat.

[SpaceJam2]

Who was Dwight's

So at this point you're deflecting and getting into danger deflection mode.

Are we really comparing

Scottie Pippen to Rashard Lewis to Mo Williams

And you wonder why you lose every time? :hammerhead:

[3ball]

So at this point you're deflecting and getting into danger deflection mode.

Are we really comparing

Scottie Pippen to Rashard Lewis to Mo Williams

And you wonder why you lose every time? :hammerhead:
No, I just owned you

You inferred that lebron didn't have a teammate like pippen, so I pointed out that he didn't need one because his opponent didn't have another star either - it was 2 star-less casts in the ECF, and lebron lost

And MJ won numerous series in 88 and 89' when the opponent's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players > pip.. this includes the #1 SRS team from 89' (Cavs), who were > 09' Magic and actually had 3 perennial all-stars
.

[kennethgriffen]

I wish Kobe made it in 2007 so we could have whooped that Bron Boy but Bron was there in teh Finals waiting for us Kobe boys :(


not everyone can play in the east

[Vino24]

so instead of 5 LeBron threads a day op would bump it up to 8 if there was a real debate.

[AirBonner]

so instead of 5 LeBron threads a day op would bump it up to 8 if there was a real debate.
https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

[bobopenguin]

We'd have real goat debate if Lebron won in 2019, oh wait.

[HylianNightmare]

Those underdog magic had the Cavs number all season Dwight Howard would eat up all the big man that they had all regular season and it's not like LeBron could go down there and guard him I hate this revisionist history of the magic being The Underdogs they had Defenders to throw at LeBron and a big man inside that could exploit them

[andgar923]

It's a big if, but that 2009 run (RS, PO, and Finals) would've been as good, maybe better than any ring MJ won

Unfortunately, Lebron couldn't elevate his heavily-favored 1 seed to a higher level of basketball than Dwight Howard

More than any other series, the 09 ECF proves everything I've ever said about Lebron because the underdog Magic weren't the Durant Warriors and stacked with better talent - they just played better BASKETBALL than Lebron's team..

That's on lebron for not elevating the team over an opponent they were supposed to beat.. That's why MJ was better - his teams always played to their ceiling (never lost when expected to win), because his style of play, fundamentals, and shooting was superior.. in addition to the intangibles of leadership, clutch and stamina

And we know lebron lost that series in part because he opted to guard 6'2" Courtney Lee instead of Hedo or Rashard where he'd have far more impact - this boosted his energy for offensive stats, but helped lose the series.. #winningoverstats.. MJ pursued stats like everyone else, but never put them over winning, and infact sacrificed them TO win

2009 was the beginning of his inferiority to MJ because it set the seeds for team-hopping... Certainly if lebron won in 2009 and started a dynasty - that's mj-level.. even if he still team-hopped after winning in 09', people would give him credit for the 09' win... but ultimately, he came nowhere near the ring in 09 because his skills couldn't elevate his team to better basketball than Dwight - even Dwight can beat westbrooking.. :oldlol:
.

Nope.

Don't lower the bar for these idiots.

[egokiller]

If LeBron won in 09 I'd have a hard time putting MJ above him, I would've probably had to put them 1A and 1B

But still, top 5 is a great feat.

The 09 and 11 losses put him out of the top 5. The other 4 losses aren't helping his case either....

[3ball]

Nope.

Don't lower the bar for these idiots.
I'm gonna be honest

I'm just bored.. Because it's over.. and settled.. and there never really was a debate - there was only new fans or media that twisted logic and facts to create a false goat narrative for lebron.

But now those same talking heads, ahem cowherd, have completely abandoned all goat talk, and some of the most ardent lebron supporters have conceded they made a mistake and overshot their ski's on this one

So I guess I'm trying to create a challenge with this thread but the ship sailed.. I think it's time to retire and find another hobby..

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm gonna be honest

I'm just bored.. Because it's over.. and settled.. and there never really was a debate - there was only new fans or media that twisted logic and facts to create a false goat narrative for lebron.

But now those same talking heads, ahem cowherd, have completely abandoned all goat talk, and some of the most ardent lebron supporters have conceded they made a mistake and overshot their ski's on this one

I guess I'm trying to create a challenge with this thread but the ship sailed.. I think it's time to retire and find another hobby..
Probably something you should've realized 5 years ago. But hey, better late than never :cheers:

[3ball]

Probably something you should've realized 5 years ago. But hey, better late than never :cheers:
:cheers:

And you guys too.. for not believing what was staring us in the face and what we all knew in our hearts - a weak East inflated his resume and perceived greatness, along with him teaming up

Sure, he changed the league with "the decision", but not in a good way.. The competititve landscape took a hard turn towards collusion/WWE-type shit being the new standard - like, we already know kyrie and durant will team up in NY and make a bunch of Finals..

This idea of forming a big fish to beat up on the smaller fish is a weaker competitive landscape than greats in previous eras faced.. I do believe the history books will take note. Maybe not as much as the steroid era in baseball, but close

[Duncan21formvp]

Bringing America a bronze medal in Basketball for someone actually born in the 50 states is what took him out of the running. Can't be losing to Carlos Arroyo and winning bronze medal in basketball when you are born in the contiguous United States.

[TheCorporation]

Bringing America a bronze medal in Basketball for someone actually born in the 50 states is what took him out of the running. Can't be losing to Carlos Arroyo and winning bronze medal in basketball when you are born in the contiguous United States.

Boy you better put some respeck on Tim Duncan's name! Just because Timmy got beat up and earned a bronze doesn't mean you need to tear him down! :mad:

[RRR3]

LeBron was playing with a clown car of a supporting cast back then lmao. The fact that he led that roster to 66 wins is absolutely absurd.

[TheCorporation]

LeBron was playing with a clown car of a supporting cast back then lmao. The fact that he led that roster to 66 wins is absolutely absurd.

:bowdown: :applause: Exactly

[egokiller]

LeBron was playing with a clown car of a supporting cast back then lmao. The fact that he led that roster to 66 wins is absolutely absurd.

A clown car that he was driving and making stops with open doors to pick up the players that HE wanted. He should have stopped playing GM and let people do their job. He didn't, and the end result is 6 finals losses. He's largely responsible for choosing teammates that couldn't complement his cancerous style. :applause:

[TheCorporation]

A clown car that he was driving and making stops with open doors to pick up the players that HE wanted. He should have stopped playing GM and let people do their job. He didn't, and the end result is 6 finals losses. He's largely responsible for choosing teammates that couldn't complement his cancerous style. :applause:

Mo Williams

[ImKobe]

LeBron was playing with a clown car of a supporting cast back then lmao. The fact that he led that roster to 66 wins is absolutely absurd.

"clown car of a supporting cast"

all-star 2nd option
a frontcourt of Varejao, Big Z, Ben Wallace
Cavs had the 2nd best 3-point shooting team in the league and a top 3 defense with one of the best rebounding and shot-blocking teams in the league, I guess he did all those things by himself.

Kobe won the same year with much less :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

A clown car that he was driving and making stops with open doors to pick up the players that HE wanted. He should have stopped playing GM and let people do their job. He didn't, and the end result is 6 finals losses. He's largely responsible for choosing teammates that couldn't complement his cancerous style. :applause:
Still delivered Cleveland their only championship of the last 50 years :applause: And good chance he'll be the only FMVP in Cavs history

"clown car of a supporting cast"

all-star 2nd option
a frontcourt of Varejao, Big Z, Ben Wallace
Cavs had the 2nd best 3-point shooting team in the league and a top 3 defense with one of the best rebounding and shot-blocking teams in the league, I guess he did all those things by himself.

Kobe won the same year with much less :roll:
:kobe:

[RRR3]

Duh-uhhh-uhhhh
Lol

[sdot_thadon]

Imagine thinking you know enough to make this topic and say Courtney Lee was 6'2.........:oldlol:

[3ball]

LeBron was playing with a clown car of a supporting cast back then lmao. The fact that he led that roster to 66 wins is absolutely absurd.



That clown car only won 45 games in 2008, until Mo was added in 2009:


MO.... WILLIAMS.... 09':. 17.8.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
CHRIS MIDDLETON 19':. 18.1.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws/48.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp


So not really a clown car in 09'.. Dirk and many others have flirted with or achieved 60 wins despite weak casts, and in stronger conferences

And the reality is that lebron was producing much less than MJ to win more games - his 28/8/7 got 66 wins, while MJ's 33/8/8 got 47 wins, or 37/5/5 got 42 wins, or 35/6/6/dpoy got 50 wins..

The reason lebron won more by doing less is because his cast was decorated compared to MJ's - MJ's cast had zero accolades, while Varejao was all-defense, Mo was an all-star, Hughes was all-defense, Zydrunas was a 2-time all-star, Jamison was a 2-time all-star and Shaq was 2009 all-star mvp.. that's simply far better players than MJ had.. in a MUCH weaker conference
.

[ImKobe]

That clown car only won 45 games in 2008, until Mo was added in 2009:


MO WILLIAMS 09':......... 17.8.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
CHRIS MIDDLETON 19':. 18.1.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws/48.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp


So not really a clown car in 09'.. Dirk and many others have flirted with or achieved 60 wins despite weak casts, and in stronger conferences

And the reality is that lebron was producing much less than MJ to win more games - his 28/8/7 got 66 wins, while MJ's 33/8/8 got 47 wins, or 37/5/5 got 42 wins, or 35/6/6/dpoy got 50 wins..

The reason lebron won more by doing less is because his cast was decorated compared to MJ's - MJ's cast had zero accolades, while Varejao was all-defense, Mo was an all-star, Hughes was all-defense, Zydrunas was a 2-time all-star, Jamison was a 2-time all-star and Shaq was 2009 all-star mvp.. that's simply far better players than I had.. in a MUCH weaker conference


Nothing but facts, also look at the competition in that Conference - 3 teams made the Playoffs with 39-41 wins, only 3 teams with 50+ wins while the West had 9 teams with 46+ wins and double the amount of 50+ win teams. Cavs division? zero teams above .500.

[TheCorporation]

That clown car only won 45 games in 2008, until Mo was added in 2009:


MO.... WILLIAMS.... 09':. 17.8.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
CHRIS MIDDLETON 19':. 18.1.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws/48.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp


So not really a clown car in 09'.. Dirk and many others have flirted with or achieved 60 wins despite weak casts, and in stronger conferences

And the reality is that lebron was producing much less than MJ to win more games - his 28/8/7 got 66 wins, while MJ's 33/8/8 got 47 wins, or 37/5/5 got 42 wins, or 35/6/6/dpoy got 50 wins..

The reason lebron won more by doing less is because his cast was decorated compared to MJ's - MJ's cast had zero accolades, while Varejao was all-defense, Mo was an all-star, Hughes was all-defense, Zydrunas was a 2-time all-star, Jamison was a 2-time all-star and Shaq was 2009 all-star mvp.. that's simply far better players than MJ had.. in a MUCH weaker conference
.


Imagine Mo Williams vs Khris Middleton being your argument.


Just
Imagine
It

[Manny98]

That clown car only won 45 games in 2008, until Mo was added in 2009:


MO.... WILLIAMS.... 09':. 17.8.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
CHRIS MIDDLETON 19':. 18.1.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws/48.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp


So not really a clown car in 09'.. Dirk and many others have flirted with or achieved 60 wins despite weak casts, and in stronger conferences

And the reality is that lebron was producing much less than MJ to win more games - his 28/8/7 got 66 wins, while MJ's 33/8/8 got 47 wins, or 37/5/5 got 42 wins, or 35/6/6/dpoy got 50 wins..

The reason lebron won more by doing less is because his cast was decorated compared to MJ's - MJ's cast had zero accolades, while Varejao was all-defense, Mo was an all-star, Hughes was all-defense, Zydrunas was a 2-time all-star, Jamison was a 2-time all-star and Shaq was 2009 all-star mvp.. that's simply far better players than MJ had.. in a MUCH weaker conference
.
It's spelt Khris Middleton btw not Chris :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

It's spelt Khris Middleton btw not Chris :oldlol:

You will have to forgive him, he hasn't watched an actual basketball game since 1998 :lol

MJ YouTube dunk highlights on 6'2 guards is all he watches these days :lol

[RRR3]

Nothing but facts, also look at the competition in that Conference - 3 teams made the Playoffs with 39-41 wins, only 3 teams with 50+ wins while the West had 9 teams with 46+ wins and double the amount of 50+ win teams. Cavs division? zero teams above .500.
The east had a winning record against the west that year.


ImBraindead strikes again.

[Uncle Drew]

''How was your Friday? Oh man, it was awesome. I just did the same thing I've done everyday since 2014! What about yours?''.

[SpaceJam2]

''How was your Friday? Oh man, it was awesome. I just did the same thing I've done everyday since 2014! What about yours?''.

:roll: :roll:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

losing and getting outplayed by a Fright led Orlando missing its star guard/2nd best player............while having homecourt..........yikes

Brans defense in that series was PUTRID:facepalm

[SpaceJam2]

Highest WS/48 in NBA history

2009 Bron

:pimp:

Just made the thread you were nervous about