Who had the most help all-time?

[TheCorporation]

Horace Grant was MJ

[SouBeachTalents]

Kevin Durant

[FreezingTsmoove]

Westbrook

[ImKobe]

Lebron, easily

Wade
Shaq
Irving
Bosh
Love
Rose
IT
Ben Wallace
Ray Allen

[TheCorporation]

Lebron, easily

Wade
Shaq
Irving
Bosh
Love
Rose
IT
Ben Wallace
Ray Allen

ORtg in the playoffs
Horrace Grant: 130, 127, 127 .. ('91, '92, '93) ... AVG = 128

[ImKobe]

ORtg in the playoffs
Horrace Grant: 130, 127, 127 .. ('91, '92, '93) ... AVG = 128

The MJ effect.

Meanwhile, Lebron's teammates get WORSE and less efficient on offense.

[paksat]

cry you stains cry

stats on stats on stats on stats

L on L on L on L

:roll:

[imdaman99]

Westbrook
Yeah I mean imagine having Ibaka and Steven Adams as your 3rd options. Dudes that couldn't even post me up :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

The MJ effect.

Meanwhile, Lebron's teammates get WORSE and less efficient on offense.

I was waiting for you to say that. I wonder what the Kobe effect is? :lol :lol :eek:

[TheCorporation]

cry you stains cry

stats on stats on stats on stats

L on L on L on L

:roll:

Me: Facts

You: Meltdowns


Keep it up :applause:

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron, easily

Wade
Shaq
Irving
Bosh
Love
Rose
IT
Ben Wallace
Ray Allen
Kobe's got that beat

Shaq
Malone
Nash
Payton
Howard
Gasol
Bynum
Artest
Odom

[TheCorporation]

Kobe's got that beat

Shaq
Malone
Nash
Payton
Howard
Gasol
Bynum
Artest
Odom

MVP, MVP, MVP, DPOY, DPOY, FMVP, DPOY, 6th man

Jesus...Kobe mustve had 4 FMVPs at the least?!

[paksat]

Me: Facts

You: Meltdowns


Keep it up :applause:

kyrie irving









































































dwyane wade













































































:roll:

[TheCorporation]

Kevin Durant

Good choice

[ImKobe]

Kobe's got that beat

Shaq
Malone
Nash
Payton
Howard
Gasol
Bynum
Artest
Odom

He actually doesn't, almost all the players I listed played with Lebron in their primes/in their 20s while Malone, Nash, Payton were in their late 30s/early 40s. Artest, Odom and Bynum have 2 all-star games combined to Love's 5.

[SouBeachTalents]

He actually doesn't, almost all the players I listed played with Lebron in their primes/in their 20s while Malone, Nash, Payton were in their late 30s/early 40s. Artest, Odom and Bynum have 2 all-star games combined to Love's 5.
Lmao, your clown ass listed Shaq, Allen & Wallace, not to mention Rose & IT who literally played 15 games a piece with LeBron

[TheCorporation]

Lmao, your clown ass listed Shaq, Allen & Wallace, not to mention Rose & IT who literally played 15 games a piece with LeBron

:lol

ImFailbe caught again

What's new? :lol

[paksat]

l39ron reminds me of the monstars

literally drains the talent out of every player he plays with

they all drop like cinder blocks stats wise when he plays with them unless they're a spot up shooter

he took wade from a top 3 player "I can't beat this guy, better join him to secure my legacy," to 2 seasons later putting him on the decline of his career
























































:roll:

[LeCola]

Lebron. :cheers:

[Celtics 1825]

Durant is the objective answer. Let's not forget that the last 4 MVP winners were all guys he played or is playing with.

[bigkingsfan]

MJ, three other all stars in their prime at the same time. But lost to Nick Anderson.

[SpaceJam2]

MJ, three other all stars in their prime at the same time. But lost to Nick Anderson.

Jordan running around with GOAT #2 and #3 options beating up on 6'2 guards when the best teams he played are scoring at a 10 ppg second option rate :facepalm

Not. my. goat.

[Jacques Webster]

The fact that people legit try to use Shaq as help for LeBron is concerning. :lol

[The Iron Fist]

I was waiting for you to say that. I wonder what the Kobe effect is? :lol :lol :eek:
You dont have to wonder. He always made things brighter.

https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/sFG41WW9rsNHqKBtElkW2Q--~B/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wME EzMDA7aD00MDA7dz01MzM-/https://peopledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/kobe-bryant-a-1024.jpg.cf.jpg

[superduper]

The fact that people legit try to use Shaq as help for LeBron is concerning. :lol

Yeah but baffoons using Payton/Malone/Dwight/Nash for Kobe isnt concerning right :lol :lol

[TheCorporation]

You dont have to wonder. He always made things brighter.

https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/sFG41WW9rsNHqKBtElkW2Q--~B/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wME EzMDA7aD00MDA7dz01MzM-/https://peopledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/kobe-bryant-a-1024.jpg.cf.jpg

Only took the man 6 trips to the Finals to snag his first Finals MVP. Not bad for an inefficient chuck artist :applause:

[And1AllDay]

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]Horace Grant was MJ

[G0ATbe]

It's pretty close between Kobe and Durant imo. Durants played with the past 3, possibly 4 MVPs. Kobe on the other hand was either alfred(2000 finals) or robin(2001,2002) for majority of his rings so that speaks for itself.

[3ball]

.
REGULAR SEASON

KYRIEW15-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:per_game):. 22.4.. 3.1.. 5.3.. 57.2 ts.. 2.5 tov.. 28.9 usg.. 115 ortg.. 22.7 PER.. 0.169 ws/48
PIPPEN 91-93' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game):' 19.1.. 7.5.. 6.5.. 54.1 ts.. 3.0 tov.. 23.5 usg.. 112 ortg.. 20.4 PER.. 0.168 ws/48

KYRIEW15-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:per_game):. 22.4.. 3.1.. 5.3.. 57.2 ts.. 2.5 tov.. 28.9 usg.. 115 ortg.. 22.7 PER
PIPPEN 96-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game):' 19.7.. 6.2.. 5.8.. 54.8 ts.. 2.6 tov.. 24.5 usg.. 115 ortg.. 21.0 PER


PLAYOFFS

KYRIEW15-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 23.9.. 3.1.. 4.7.. 57.3 ts.. 2.2 tov.. 28.8 usg.. 117 ortg.. 22.4 PER
PIPPEN 91-93' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 20.3.. 8.2.. 6.1.. 53.6 ts.. 3.4 tov.. 24.9 usg.. 109 ortg.. 19.6 PER

KYRIEW15-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 23.9.. 3.1.. 4.7.. 57.3 ts.. 2.2 tov.. 28.9 usg.. 117 ortg.. 22.4 PER
PIPPEN 96-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game):' 17.6.. 7.4.. 5.0.. 50.0 ts.. 2.5 tov.. 23.4 usg.. 109 ortg.. 19.0 PER

[Overdrive]

So clearly not only did MJ have the GOAT 2nd option, he also had the GOAT 3rd option playing with him.

Kobe, Curry and Kyrie are the best 2nd options for title winning teams in '01, '02, '16, '17 and '18. Not Pippen. They posted 1st option numbers in those finals, bt were outshone, by the #1 option.

If you think Grant is a better player and thus 3rd option than some of the other guys you listed based on 1 stat you're completely delusional.

Grant's best offensive skills were midrange jumpers off botched plays and put backs. He's a better shooting Tristan Thompson.

[Big164]

Peep this starting 5

C David Robinson
Pf Robert Horry
Sf Kawhi Leonard
Sg Manu Ginobli
Pg Tony Parker

Bench:

Michael Finley
Bruce Bowen
Stephen Jackson
Lamarcus Aldridge
Danny Green
Steve Kerr


Coach: The GOAT nba Coach


Imagine having that kinda help. Youd win 6 rings easily!

[Manny98]

1. KD
2. MJ
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Duncan

In that order

[Big164]

Jordan running around with GOAT #2 and #3 options beating up on 6'2 guards when the best teams he played are scoring at a 10 ppg second option rate :facepalm

Not. my. goat.
Kyrie is undisputed highest scoring Finals performer of all time as #2 option. Higher than Kobe, Dr J or Steph.

[3ball]

.


REGULAR SEASON

KYRIEW15-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:per_game):. 22.4.. 3.1.. 5.3.. 57.2 ts.. 2.5 tov.. 28.9 usg.. 115 ortg.. 22.7 PER.. 0.169 ws/48
PIPPEN 91-93' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game):' 19.1.. 7.5.. 6.5.. 54.1 ts.. 3.0 tov.. 23.5 usg.. 112 ortg.. 20.4 PER.. 0.168 ws/48

KYRIEW15-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:per_game):. 22.4.. 3.1.. 5.3.. 57.2 ts.. 2.5 tov.. 28.9 usg.. 115 ortg.. 22.7 PER
PIPPEN 96-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game):' 19.7.. 6.2.. 5.8.. 54.8 ts.. 2.6 tov.. 24.5 usg.. 115 ortg.. 21.0 PER


PLAYOFFS

KYRIEW15-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 23.9.. 3.1.. 4.7.. 57.3 ts.. 2.2 tov.. 28.8 usg.. 117 ortg.. 22.4 PER
PIPPEN 91-93' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 20.3.. 8.2.. 6.1.. 53.6 ts.. 3.4 tov.. 24.9 usg.. 109 ortg.. 19.6 PER

KYRIEW15-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 23.9.. 3.1.. 4.7.. 57.3 ts.. 2.2 tov.. 28.9 usg.. 117 ortg.. 22.4 PER
PIPPEN 96-98' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game):' 17.6.. 7.4.. 5.0.. 50.0 ts.. 2.5 tov.. 23.4 usg.. 109 ortg.. 19.0 PER




And Pippen was bad in nearly every big series the Bulls won



1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8% (2 pts, 1-10 in game 7)

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1994 ECSF vs NYN:. 21.7 on 40.5% (worst-ever 1st option w/ goat choke)

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%

1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%
1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2% (9.7 on 40.4% in ecf)


Pippen's stats during 96-98' playoffs - 17 on 40.8%
.

[egokiller]

https://i.postimg.cc/cL8PHH0p/wheels.gif

[TheCorporation]

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]Horace Grant was MJ

[72-10]

all of the players in the history of the league

[TheCorporation]

all of the players in the history of the league

Pretty interesting to say the least...


How many THIRD options ever put up numbers this good?


3 year best ORtg for third options:

Horrace Grant: 130, 127, 127 .. ('91, '92, '93) ... AVG = 128
Manu Ginobli: 124, 122, 115 .. ('05, '16, '06) ... AVG = 120.3
Kevin Love: 120, 118, 114 .. ('17, '15, '16) ... AVG = 117.3
Kareem Abdul: 119, 118, 113 .. ('87, '85, '83) ... AVG = 116.6
Chris Bosh: 119, 115, 111 .. ('14, '12, '11) ... AVG = 115
Draymond Green: 119, 113, 112 .. ('17, '16, '14) ... AVG = 114.6
Ray Allen: 117, 111, 110 .. ('08, '10, '09) ... AVG = 112.6

[LostCause]

Wassup with the random assortment of years in your gif? If you’re just listing 3 random years, you’re missing a TON of excellent 3rd options in that random, singular metric

[E_Stamkos]

lol @ Horace being the GOAT 3rd in line.

Somebody bitch slap this kid.

[HylianNightmare]

KD easily, imagine just joining a 73 win team

[MrFonzworth]

We will not be having 20-30 topics at once on 3 people who arent playing who you cant seem to keep out of your heads.

Im not gonna explain the situation before they go. Or ask you to stop. Topics are just gonna be deleted so save any clearly rehashed convincing nobody topics for the offseason. The same 16 people will be here to respond the same way they did yesterday and pretend their points or yours are new and interesting. They will pop in and respond to pics they have seen 3500 times with rolling emojis like they are still funny. They will keep responding to 3/9, 1/9, 6/24 and all the rest as if there is any new spin to be put on it and you arent all insane. They are just as obsessed as you and will be bursting at the seams to make shit topics with no new points in June. They will not abandon you while normal fans discuss the playoffs.

Only warning. You wont hear from me again on the subject.

[Duncan21formvp]

Lebron, easily

Wade
Shaq
Irving
Bosh
Love
Rose
IT
Ben Wallace
Ray Allen
This and was down every year in a series at least 3-2 and couldn't even beat Dwight Howard.

[Duncan21formvp]

1. KD
2. MJ
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Duncan

In that order
Jordan is the only one who never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp. So he definitely had the least amount of help of any all time great.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Shaq with Kobe 2000 - 2004
LeBron with Wade and Bosh 2011 - 2014
LeBron with Kyrie and Love 2015 - 2017
Durant with 73 win Warriors 2017 - Now

[knicksman]

stupidity - "doing the same thing expecting different result."

Wilt, oscar, russell, duncan has already proven that stats dont mean shit. So stupidity is being a statnerd when those guys have already proven it.

[SomeBlackDude]

itt: op destroys the myth of bron making players better.

if you can make horace f*cking grant better than chris bosh and kevin love, there is no question you are the goat.

only being 3/9 with all that talent around you makes much more sense now.

mj ball>>>bron ball.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/228/324/4a4.gif

[sd3035]

Lebron, easily

Wade
Shaq
Irving
Bosh
Love
Rose
IT
Ben Wallace
Ray Allen


Also the refs

Can't believe he hasn't won 8 titles by now

[72-10]

would like to point out that Grant was the Bulls' third option and MJ's second option:rolleyes:

[Lodi Dodi]

You must be dumb as bricks to believe that this argument favors LeBron.

First lets look at the players:

Chris Bosh: very solid all-around power forward with no real weakness. Proven he can lead a team to the playoffs and I believe that he could be the second best player on a championship level team ala Pau Gasol.

Horace Grant: A very athletic player that can score points in transition, can finish layups and dunks, a solid rebounder, a B level defender, however he lacks the skillset to create shots on his own. Is good at some but not great at any facet of basketball. If he was the best player on his team, that would be one of the 2 worst teams in the league at any era.

Now lets take a look these players best stats:
Bosh (all in Toronto all first option):
2009-2010 Age 25, 24.0 PPG 51.8 FG% 79.7 FT% 10.8 REB 2.4 AST 0.6 STL 1.0 BLK
2006-2007 Age 22 22.6 PPG 49.6 FG% 78.5 FT% 10.7 REB 2.5 AST 0.6 STL 1.3 BLK
2008-2009 Age 24 22.7 PPG 48.7 FG% 81.7 FT% 10.0 REB 2.5 AST 0.9 STL 1.0 BLK
(Miami 3rd option):
2010-2011 Age 26 18.7 PPG 49.7 FG% 81.5 FT% 8.3 REB 1.9 AST 0.8 STL 0.6 BLK

Grant:
1993-1994 (2nd option) Age 28 15.1 PPG 52.4 FG% 59.6 FT% 11.0 REB 3.4 AST 1.1 STL 1.2 BLK
1991-1992 (3rd option) Age 26 14.2 PPG 57.8 FG% 74.1 FT% 10.0 REB 2.7 AST 1.2 STL 1.6 BLK
1995-1996 (4th option) Age 30 13.4 PPG 51.3 FG% 73.4 FT% 9.2 REB 2.7 AST 1.0 STL 1.2 BLK

It's pretty clear that there is no comparison which player is better. The only facet of the game that is close is rebounding and defense, but offensively it's not even close. Chris Bosh completely blows Horace Grant out of the water. Bosh is better than James Worthy and about as equivalent as Pau Gasol.

The fact that Grant was that efficient was shows how easy it was to score on the Bulls with Jordan being the first option and how great the Bulls were defensively leading to easy transition buckets.

[Gileraracer]

Lebron, easily.

[SpaceJam2]

You must be dumb as bricks to believe that this argument favors LeBron.

First lets look at the players:

Chris Bosh: very solid all-around power forward with no real weakness. Proven he can lead a team to the playoffs and I believe that he could be the second best player on a championship level team ala Pau Gasol.

Horace Grant: A very athletic player that can score points in transition, can finish layups and dunks, a solid rebounder, a B level defender, however he lacks the skillset to create shots on his own. Is good at some but not great at any facet of basketball. If he was the best player on his team, that would be one of the 2 worst teams in the league at any era.

Now lets take a look these players best stats:
Bosh (all in Toronto all first option):
2009-2010 Age 25, 24.0 PPG 51.8 FG% 79.7 FT% 10.8 REB 2.4 AST 0.6 STL 1.0 BLK
2006-2007 Age 22 22.6 PPG 49.6 FG% 78.5 FT% 10.7 REB 2.5 AST 0.6 STL 1.3 BLK
2008-2009 Age 24 22.7 PPG 48.7 FG% 81.7 FT% 10.0 REB 2.5 AST 0.9 STL 1.0 BLK
(Miami 3rd option):
2010-2011 Age 26 18.7 PPG 49.7 FG% 81.5 FT% 8.3 REB 1.9 AST 0.8 STL 0.6 BLK

Grant:
1993-1994 (2nd option) Age 28 15.1 PPG 52.4 FG% 59.6 FT% 11.0 REB 3.4 AST 1.1 STL 1.2 BLK
1991-1992 (3rd option) Age 26 14.2 PPG 57.8 FG% 74.1 FT% 10.0 REB 2.7 AST 1.2 STL 1.6 BLK
1995-1996 (4th option) Age 30 13.4 PPG 51.3 FG% 73.4 FT% 9.2 REB 2.7 AST 1.0 STL 1.2 BLK

It's pretty clear that there is no comparison which player is better. The only facet of the game that is close is rebounding and defense, but offensively it's not even close. Chris Bosh completely blows Horace Grant out of the water. Bosh is better than James Worthy and about as equivalent as Pau Gasol.

The fact that Grant was that efficient was shows how easy it was to score on the Bulls with Jordan being the first option and how great the Bulls were defensively leading to easy transition buckets.

You wrote all of that just to prove Grant was a better rebounder, defender, and more efficient scoring the ball but Bosh scored more ppg as a #1 option when Grant was a #3 option? :wtf:

[egokiller]

Until someone has a teammate score 41+ points in a finals game on 71% shooting while they themselves take enough shots to drop 41+ as the first option, LeBron has had the most help of anyone. His teammate was so good that he matched LeBron's shooting at a higher clip as a 2nd option.

MJ.... did more with less than LeBron could ever hope to do. :applause:

[Bankaii]

stupidity - "doing the same thing expecting different result."

Wilt, oscar, russell, duncan has already proven that stats dont mean shit. So stupidity is being a statnerd when those guys have already proven it.
That

[Real14]

My threads were closed. Why is this thread still up Mods?

[BigShotBob]

OP has had the most help all time since he was born paraplegic

[ronniec]

Kobe's got that beat

Shaq
Malone
Nash
Payton
Howard
Gasol
Bynum
Artest
Odom

You really meant Andrew "fvcking retard" Bynum?? in your list???

[SpaceJam2]

[QUOTE=Bankaii]That

[Real14]

Mods?????:biggums:

[sd3035]

itt: op destroys the myth of bron making players better.

if you can make horace f*cking grant better than chris bosh and kevin love, there is no question you are the goat.

only being 3/9 with all that talent around you makes much more sense now.

mj ball>>>bron ball.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/228/324/4a4.gif


This is a pretty harsh dose of reality for Lefraud defenders

[RoseCity07]

Kobe.

[305Baller]

Kobe Beef Bryant

[No Sir]

Kobe.

Dude averaged 15 points on a 30% clip in the nba finals and still got handed a ring. Unreal.

[SpaceJam2]

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]Horace Grant was MJ

[And1AllDay]

kyrie irving


























dwyane wade










:roll:

Hmmm how do I break the news

[GimmeThat]

player whose statistic of production by raw number (disregarding efficiency) that had taken a dip in the playoff

[34-24 Footwork]

You must be dumb as bricks to believe that this argument favors LeBron.

First lets look at the players:

Chris Bosh: very solid all-around power forward with no real weakness. Proven he can lead a team to the playoffs and I believe that he could be the second best player on a championship level team ala Pau Gasol.

Horace Grant: A very athletic player that can score points in transition, can finish layups and dunks, a solid rebounder, a B level defender, however he lacks the skillset to create shots on his own. Is good at some but not great at any facet of basketball. If he was the best player on his team, that would be one of the 2 worst teams in the league at any era.

Now lets take a look these players best stats:
Bosh (all in Toronto all first option):
2009-2010 Age 25, 24.0 PPG 51.8 FG% 79.7 FT% 10.8 REB 2.4 AST 0.6 STL 1.0 BLK
2006-2007 Age 22 22.6 PPG 49.6 FG% 78.5 FT% 10.7 REB 2.5 AST 0.6 STL 1.3 BLK
2008-2009 Age 24 22.7 PPG 48.7 FG% 81.7 FT% 10.0 REB 2.5 AST 0.9 STL 1.0 BLK
(Miami 3rd option):
2010-2011 Age 26 18.7 PPG 49.7 FG% 81.5 FT% 8.3 REB 1.9 AST 0.8 STL 0.6 BLK

Grant:
1993-1994 (2nd option) Age 28 15.1 PPG 52.4 FG% 59.6 FT% 11.0 REB 3.4 AST 1.1 STL 1.2 BLK
1991-1992 (3rd option) Age 26 14.2 PPG 57.8 FG% 74.1 FT% 10.0 REB 2.7 AST 1.2 STL 1.6 BLK
1995-1996 (4th option) Age 30 13.4 PPG 51.3 FG% 73.4 FT% 9.2 REB 2.7 AST 1.0 STL 1.2 BLK

It's pretty clear that there is no comparison which player is better. The only facet of the game that is close is rebounding and defense, but offensively it's not even close. Chris Bosh completely blows Horace Grant out of the water. Bosh is better than James Worthy and about as equivalent as Pau Gasol.

The fact that Grant was that efficient was shows how easy it was to score on the Bulls with Jordan being the first option and how great the Bulls were defensively leading to easy transition buckets.

Lol. Any serious response to this?

[LeCola]

Lebron
Durant
Magic

[SpaceJam2]

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]Horace Grant was MJ