why do athleticism reliant high statistical output players not win championships?

[STATUTORY]

The moment when you realize

Lebron James
Russell Westbrook
Dwight Howard
Charles Barkley
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson

are a combined 6 for 21 in the NBA finals :biggums:

[red1]

3 finals MVPs. tied for second most all-time.

doesn't win championships.




my man - just HOW MANY TIMES did your parents drop you on your head as a kid? seriously?

[Kblaze8855]

Do your math again.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron's won 3

[SpaceJam2]

3 finals MVPs. tied for second most all-time.

doesn't win championships.




my man - just HOW MANY TIMES did your parents drop you on your head as a kid? seriously?

:roll:

I'll pile on. LeBron is better at
•scoring
•passing
•rebounding
•defending
•clutch shots
•faced tougher competiton
•More WS, VORP, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
•More efficient

But...joRdaN siX bEaTs tHreE :lol

Nah :no:

[Kblaze8855]

Oscar Robertson athleticism reliant? Oscar went out of his way to not be explosive or high flying. He took pride in being brutally fundamental. He could dunk in like 8th grade but you have never seen him do it.

Youre just typing names now criticizing a player for nothing but playing when they had a lot of rebounds to grab. He didnt even know what a triple double was. Chick Hearn coined the phrase. Nobody gave a shit in 1962. They didnt even care about per game stats at the end of the year. The leaders were done by totals like baseball.

The scoring leader had the most total points. Same for assists. They werent playing for numbers back then. Not a guy like Oscar at least.

[sdot_thadon]

That moment you realize Op doesn't know shit about basketball.:hammerhead:

[SpaceJam2]

Oscar Robertson athleticism reliant? Oscar went out of his way to not be explosive or high flying. He took pride in being brutally fundamental. He could dunk in like 8th grade but you have never seen him do it.

Youre just typing names now criticizing a player for nothing but playing when they had a lot of rebounds to grab. He didnt even know what a triple double was. Chick Hearn coined the phrase. Nobody gave a shit in 1962. They didnt even care about per game stats at the end of the year. The leaders were done by totals like baseball.

The scoring leader had the most total points. Same for assists. They werent playing for numbers back then. Not a guy like Oscar at least.

Nice :cheers:

[StrongLurk]

Craziest thing about OP is that he almost never (99% of the time) responds to people in his threads or talk in game threads.

He just makes threads about Lebron and then dips...and yet his post count is over 10,000.

Just an insane amount of retarded threads. OP might even be an alt.

[Bronbron23]

:roll:

I'll pile on. LeBron is better at
•scoring
•passing
•rebounding
•defending
•clutch shots
•faced tougher competiton
•More WS, VORP, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
•More efficient

But...joRdaN siX bEaTs tHreE :lol

Nah :no:

You sound like nick wright but it's mostly lies.

Scoring: no
Passing: not really. But I'll give it to you even though Has less than 2 more ass per game as a ball dominant point gaurd.
Rebounding: yes but mj was a better offensive rebounder which is the harder of the 2
Defence: hell no I'll pretend that that was a error
Clutch shots: even. It depends on what measurement your using. Either way it's pretty even
Vorp and the rest of those analytics are proven to be trash.
Efficiency: maybe. it's pretty close. LeBron's numbers will come down as he gets older. Mj's efficientcy numbers dropped a little due to coming back in his 40's. Let's see where LeBron ends up on that one as he gets closer to 40

[Spurs m8]

Cheap stats at the expense of your team mates in a team sport is cancer

[STATUTORY]

Oscar Robertson athleticism reliant? Oscar went out of his way to not be explosive or high flying. He took pride in being brutally fundamental. He could dunk in like 8th grade but you have never seen him do it.

Youre just typing names now criticizing a player for nothing but playing when they had a lot of rebounds to grab. He didnt even know what a triple double was. Chick Hearn coined the phrase. Nobody gave a shit in 1962. They didnt even care about per game stats at the end of the year. The leaders were done by totals like baseball.

The scoring leader had the most total points. Same for assists. They werent playing for numbers back then. Not a guy like Oscar at least.

Oscar wasn't athletic for his era? :coleman:

https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0810/history.october29/images/017075457.jpg

[Overdrive]

Here's a list of players that won as much as(or more than) Lebron as their team's best or arguably best player:

Russell
Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan


Oscar wasn't athletic for his era? :coleman:

https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0810/history.october29/images/017075457.jpg

Do you know what reliant means?

[90sgoat]

They're lazy and don't have to work as hard.

[TheCorporation]

You sound like nick wright but it's mostly lies.

Scoring: no
Passing: not really. But I'll give it to you even though Has less than 2 more ass per game as a ball dominant point gaurd.
Rebounding: yes but mj was a better offensive rebounder which is the harder of the 2
Defence: hell no I'll pretend that that was a error
Clutch shots: even. It depends on what measurement your using. Either way it's pretty even
Vorp and the rest of those analytics are proven to be trash.
Efficiency: maybe. it's pretty close. LeBron's numbers will come down as he gets older. Mj's efficientcy numbers dropped a little due to coming back in his 40's. Let's see where LeBron ends up on that one as he gets closer to 40

Well...

LeBron has scored more points on less shots and decimated Jordan's playoff scoring record by 1,000 points

LeBron is more efficient than Jordan in the post season, scoring higher in FG%, eFG%, and TS%

LeBron has a better DRtg than MJ (102 LBJ to 104 MJ) and has a better DBPM and BPM.

VORP is not trash, and MJ held the VORP record for a long time...That is until you know who came around.

Lastly, with regard to passing, LeBron has more assists, by far, a better AST%, and a better assist-to-turnover ratio so again, better in all facets.

[TheCorporation]

Did OP really try to downplay LBJ and not realize that literally only two players have led more teams to a chip than LBJ?

:lol

Russell
Jordan
LBJ

Then when you factor in stats...well. Yeah.

LBJ
Russell
Bird
Magic
Jordan

Greatest Finals game performance ever? Greatest peak?

https://i.postimg.cc/Hkh2X232/GmScore_Rank_updated.jpg

[knicksman]

only lebron had the refs and superteam. He would just be another loser without them. And thats why nba is dead coz they let the fraud win

[3ball]

LeBron's won 3

OP's point is that Lebron's athleticism-driven, ball-dominant style prevents him from building the teamwork and teams to win organically..

so he must team-hop/cheat/stack the deck by acquiring ready-made stars to offset his inability to develop teammates or teams.. turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't develop teammates or teams

But despite having ready-made star teammates, his brand STILL struggles to win on the championship level - he has 3 rings, but it only by team-hopping to make enough Finals so his weak brand can win a few, most by bailouts

[SouBeachTalents]

OP's point is that Lebron's athleticism-driven, ball-dominant style prevents him from building the teamwork and teams to win organically..

so he must team-hop/cheat/stack the deck by acquiring ready-made stars to offset his inability to develop teammates or teams.. turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't develop teammates or teams

But despite having ready-made star teammates, his brand STILL struggles to win on the championship level - he has 3 rings, but it only by team-hopping to make enough Finals so his weak brand can win a few, most by bailouts
But LeBron

[3ball]

But LeBron’s won 3
... by team-hopping for ready-made stars because his athleticism game doesn't produce the teamwork to win organically

OP has pointed out a legit trend among athleticism-reliant players and is spot-on

It's interesting that all the arguments for other players over lebron have these kinds of themes to them (athleticism-reliant, weak teamwork, etc)

[Kblaze8855]

Oscar wasn't athletic for his era? :coleman:

https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0810/history.october29/images/017075457.jpg


Oscar did not rely on it. He made a point of playing fundamental ball. He would take layups on uncontested fast breaks. He literally never dunked in the NBA or high school He dunked like 2 times in college. This was his thought on it:



“I guess it’s a thrill to some guys,” Robertson, 70, said in a recent phone interview. “The way it is now, it is a way of showing dominance by dunking the ball and patting your chest and opening your mouth. But in the end, can you make those jump shots, those 3-point shots? That’s what it takes.”



All Oscar did his entire career was gradually get into position for midrange fadeaways. He was all about substance over style. He wouldnt do anything flashy if his life depended on it.

There is no such thing as an Oscar Robertson highlight. He was intentionally basic and its one reason people outside the game never understood how good he was. I remember watching Walt Frazier explain how guarding him was hell...and boring. He wouldnt ever try anything far as quickness or moves. He would just gradually get where he wanted and shoot a fadeaway. Oscar was never the Lebron of his time. You do a speck of investigating...Oscar was the Kobe of the 60s. He was considered the most skilled player in the NBA. He was feared by his teammates. His teammates called him sir. He was intimidating to play with because he was too much of a perfectionist. He had teammates crying in games and giving quotes to the media about how you feel bad any time you lose because you have this perfect alien and you let him down by being human. He was talked about like a god like entity of straight fundamentals and competitiveness.

This is what you hear from the people around him





Willis Reed - He would give his own teammates hell, he would give officials hell, he was out to win every night and I like his competitive spirit.


Oscar Robertson was the general in the best sense of the word...and worst sometimes. Players were afraid of him, as much as they respected him, they were also afraid of him.


Oscar Robertson is, in my opinion, the best all-around player in the history of basketball. I had watched him on television when I was in high school, but his greatness hadn’t been obvious to me. Playing with the perennial also-ran Cincinnati Royals, he was deadly with that compact, ass-out jump shot, but he didn’t impress me that much. It was when I started playing against him that I began to understand how he controlled the game, and when I finally played with him I really started to see what his game was all about.

Oscar Robertson was the epitome of the subtle, no-flash ballplayer. He had the game broken down into such fine points that if he got even a half-step on you, you were in big trouble. He kept the game very simple, which was his first secret. All the most effective basketball strategists and players have kept their technique honed to its most lean and essential parts. John Wooden did it in his coaching; Bill Russell did it in his playing, and Oscar was the same way. He didn’t have blazing speed, and he didn’t do a whole lot of pirouettes, all he did was score, rebound, and dish the ball off. He could handle the basketball well with both hands, using the crossover dribble, first the right hand then the left then back to the right again, to lure his man into going off-balance or leaning in the wrong direction, after which he’d go right by him, and then it was either time for his shot or a pass. If you were going to stop him, you were just going to stop the basics, and you would have to do it perfectly because he could take advantage of any miscue you might make.

But Oscar was even more valuable as a leader than as a scorer. He was thirty-two years old and had lost maybe a step, but his total mastery enabled him to be just as effective as when he was averaging thirty points a game. By directing and inspiring the rest of us, he enable the Bucks to play the game the way it was supposed to be played. Coming out of three consecutive college championships and an NBA semifinal, I was used to winning and assumed it would continue pretty regularly, so I was not as overwhelmed playing with Oscar as I might have been. Had I known that what he added to my game would come only once in my professional lifetime, I might have stopped to savor the pleasure of working with the best. I’d never known anything but the best, though, so while I enjoyed playing with Oscar, it wasn’t until several years later that I appreciated him fully.





One night he showed me the whole game. We were playing Golden State, and for some reason Oscar shed ten years and brought out the Big O one last time. Getting old in professional sports doesn’t always mean losing your ability all at once, mostly it means only being able to do in unpredictable spurts what you once could call up at will; becoming a miler among sprinters. That night, maybe because he was challenged, maybe because he was angry, maybe simply because he wanted to, Oscar just dominated the floor. He crushed everyone who opposed him on the court; threw hard, precise passes that demanded to be converted; rebounded with a passion, made seventy percent of his shots and scored thirty-seven points before he was lifted. Total mastery. I envy the guys who played with him in his prime. Playing with Oscar was like working with Thomas Edison.


Oscar was the exact opposite of what you say. There are old clips of reporters asking him if he doesnt like to run the floor because he might accidentally have fun.

That guy just played basic ball all day every day shooting midrange fadeaways and layups.

There is absolutely no reason to bring him up in this topic....other than him rebounding a lot so he happened to average a triple double when nobody gave a shit.

He may be the least likely to make a spectacular athletic play of any player who ever had the ability to do it. He would avoid them on general principle.

[STATUTORY]

... by team-hopping for ready-made stars because his athleticism game doesn't produce the teamwork to win organically

OP has pointed out a legit trend among athleticism-reliant players and is spot-on

It's interesting that all the arguments for other players over lebron have these kinds of themes to them (athleticism-reliant, weak teamwork, etc)
Not to mention guys like Dominique who never even made it to the finals

players that rely on athleticism cannot win without superteam manipulation.

[SouBeachTalents]

... by team-hopping for ready-made stars because his athleticism game doesn't produce the teamwork to win organically

OP has pointed out a legit trend among athleticism-reliant players and is spot-on

It's interesting that all the arguments for other players over lebron have these kinds of themes to them (athleticism-reliant, weak teamwork, etc)
LeBron

[SamuraiSWISH]

Barkley is a basketball player LOL he lost because of the GOAT.

Oscar was a bitter, no defense playing stat guy won solely because of Kareem.

The rest are just serious loser freak athletes with minimal basketball skill, intelligence, and feel for the game. Westbitch primarily.

Wilt put up insane stats against minimal competition for a very long time. When the game was in it’s grass roots, still developing. And really, a pre-racial integration. He was just so far ahead of his time physically.

LeBron is an alien freak of nature, with performance enhancers, but he does have basketball player tendencies, skill and intelligence. It’s his mentality and cowardice that holds him back.

[3ball]

Barkley is a basketball player LOL he lost because of the GOAT.

Oscar was a bitter, no defense playing stat guy won solely because of Kareem.

The rest are just serious loser freak athletes with minimal basketball skill, intelligence, and feel for the game. Westbitch primarily.

Wilt put up insane stats against minimal competition for a very long time. When the game was in it’s grass roots, still developing. And really, a pre-racial integration. He was just so far ahead of his time physically.

LeBron is an alien freak of nature, with performance enhancers, but he does have basketball player tendencies, skill and intelligence. It’s his mentality and cowardice that holds him back.


I agree with your post and the bolded, but lebron was never going to have a goat-level ring count the way he plays - it is flawed compared to other greats

His dribble-heavy approach of turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't develop teammates/teams or compete well on the championship level, and therefore needs excess, fully-developed talent to offset the reduction in team development/brand of ball

[sdot_thadon]

I agree with your post and the bolded, but lebron was never going to have a goat-level ring count the way he plays

Neither did Mj he fell far short of the 11 ring Goat standard.

[Im so nba'd out]

could be an unatheltic mailman playing basketball where you win zero titles like a stockton or a pot smoking yoga instructor like Steve Nash.


At least the freak athletes have a couple.Meanwhile the insurance salesmen of the league like Mark Price have a whooping zero.

[AussieSteve]

The moment when you realize

Lebron James
Russell Westbrook
Dwight Howard
Charles Barkley
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson

are a combined 6 for 21 in the NBA finals :biggums:

This is obviously just a LeBron troll thread, but nonetheless including Barkley in this list is stupid.

He had great fundamentals in terms of post play and on the boards. This is why he was a 20 / 10 player for 12 straight seasons. You think he was beating guys 10 years younger with athleticism in 1996 when he was still averaging 23 / 12 on 59%ts?

No. He as no rings because he was on a trash team for most of his prime, encountered the GOAT finals performance when he finally got his chance and then injuries plagued him for the rest of his career after that.

The difference between him and a number of guys in the all time top 10 is circumstance.

[elementally morale]

could be an unatheltic mailman playing basketball where you win zero titles like a stockton or a pot smoking yoga instructor like Steve Nash.


At least the freak athletes have a couple.Meanwhile the insurance salesmen of the league like Mark Price have a whooping zero.


The way you talk about them sounds like you are a lot better than those yoga instructors and insurance salesmen. I'm not as of yet familiar with your name, sorry. Who are you again?

[SpaceJam2]

could be an unatheltic mailman playing basketball where you win zero titles like a stockton or a pot smoking yoga instructor like Steve Nash.


At least the freak athletes have a couple.Meanwhile the insurance salesmen of the league like Mark Price have a whooping zero.

Yikes :eek:

[pauk]

If somebody as skilled as Oscar Robertson and Lebron James were "athleticism realiant high statistical output players" (not saying its not true, but definitely saying also its not completely true)... then so was Michael Jordan....

Ofcourse Oscar / Lebron would have a dip in their stats without athleticism.... but so would Michael Jordan...

..and Oscar was the least athletic of that entire list.

[Gougou]

This thread is weird, don't want to be rude but...

I mean Shaq is the most physical dominant center ever and he have 4 championship 3 fmvp...

Lebron is also the most physical gifted athlete, he have 3 ring, 4 MVP, not a lot of players can do that.


On that list the only ones that doesn't win are:


Russell Westbrook (Compete in a tough conference, never had the enough chemistry with teammates to win it all)
Dwight Howard (He had his chance vs Lakers, other than that he was never successful after Magic year, his skills/ability fells off after that)
Charles Barkley (Can't beat other highly skilled players like Jordan, Malone, Hakeem)