3ball has singlehandedly led me to conclude that MJ may NOT actually be the GOAT

[AussieSteve]

tl;dr - 6/6 with 6 FMVPs does not make Jordan the GOAT. He had very favouravable circumstances. Also 3ball is an idiot.





I've always considered MJ the GOAT. I still do. But revealling 3ball's absolute lunacy in recent weeks has raised some doubts.

I'm going to say it.... Michael Jordan was blessed with very favorable circumstances all round and has become horribly overrated

He had an incredibly good supporting cast, an ATG coach and faced all-time low competition, due to either a trash era talent-wise (2nd 3peat) or the other top players in the league being on non-contending teams (1st 3peat).

His incredibly great team.

The Bulls won 55 games and were a touch-foul away form the conference finals in 1994. The next year they lost Grant, their 2nd best player and both All-D and All Star in 94, and were still on track for the 6th seed in the East, before MJ returned. They had a 45 win pace with Pippen playing but not MJ.

That's 55 wins and 45 win pace in back to back seasons, without MJ. For reference Kobe never won more than 45 games in his three prime seasons without a HoF sidekick.

There are a few possible drivers of this. Either...
1.Pippen was as good a first option as guys like Kobe and DWade, who couldn't win as much as Pippen without HoF sidekicks,
2.The depth and role players on that team were all time great, so that even with an average 2nd option (according to 3ball) playing as a first option, they were still a great team.
3. Phil was such a great coach that, even with an average to poor roster (according to 3ball), he was still able to coach them to being one of the better teams in the league.

Whichever way you slice it, MJ was surrounded by a team that was a contender even without him.

Pippen the GOAT 2nd option?

An amazing stat about Pippen is that in BOTH the 92 and 93 finals he had more points, rebounds, assists, steals AND blocks (ie everything), with better efg% than his opposing 2nd options, Terry Porter and Kevin Johnson, all while being the best defender on the floor. Even more amazing is that in the 91 finals he not only had more points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks than Lakers 2nd option James Worthy, he had more points, rebounds and steals than EVERY Laker, and more assists than all except Magic. He was literally better at EVERYTHING than EVERY second option he faced in the finals in that first 3peat, and in 91 was the clear cut 2nd best player in the series.


The weak late 90s

Malone and Stockton were together for a dozen years, with Malone never sniffing an MVP and the Jazz never sniffing the finals until both were in their mid 30s. At that point you had 35 year old MJ and Malone as the top 2 players in the league. You had teams dominated by guys in their mid to late 30s winning both conferences in back to back years. Where were all the guys in their 20s? Just an all time low for star talent. And with all the expansion in the early-mid 90s, there were a lot of bad teams floating around also.


Other elite players were on trash teams in early 90s

Jordan was on an elite team with MAYBE the GOAT 2nd option as discussed above.
Barkley was on the trash 76ers
Hakeem was on the trash rockets
DRob was on the trash spurs

When Barkley did get a squad, they put up the best fight of any team, but were hamstrung with KJ being well below his best.

None of this means that he isn't the GOAT. I watched him play growing up and, like I said, I've always considered him to be the greatest ever. But I think it does mean that we can't use 6/6 as an argument for his GOATness. And we can't use rings alone as a reason why other players weren't necessarily as good or better. Context matters.

[Smoke117]

tl;dr - 6/6 with 6 FMVPs does not make Jordan the GOAT. He had very favouravable circumstances. Also 3ball is an idiot.





I've always considered MJ the GOAT. I still do. But revealling 3ball's absolute lunacy in recent weeks has raised some doubts.

I'm going to say it.... Michael Jordan was blessed with very favorable circumstances all round and has become horribly overrated

He had an incredibly good supporting cast, an ATG coach and faced all-time low competition, due to either a trash era talent-wise (2nd 3peat) or the other top players in the league being on non-contending teams (1st 3peat).

His incredibly great team.

The Bulls won 55 games and were a touch-foul away form the conference finals in 1994. The next year they lost Grant, their 2nd best player and both All-D and All Star in 94, and were still on track for the 6th seed in the East, before MJ returned. They had a 45 win pace with Pippen playing but not MJ.

That's 55 wins and 45 win pace in back to back seasons, without MJ. For reference Kobe never won more than 45 games in his three prime seasons without a HoF sidekick.

There are a few possible drivers of this. Either...
1.Pippen was as good a first option as guys like Kobe and DWade, who couldn't win as much as Pippen without HoF sidekicks,
2.The depth and role players on that team were all time great, so that even with an average 2nd option (according to 3ball) playing as a first option, they were still a great team.
3. Phil was such a great coach that, even with an average to poor roster (according to 3ball), he was still able to coach them to being one of the better teams in the league.

Whichever way you slice it, MJ was surrounded by a team that was a contender even without him.

Pippen the GOAT 2nd option?

An amazing stat about Pippen is that in BOTH the 92 and 93 finals he had more points, rebounds, assists, steals AND blocks (ie everything), with better efg% than his opposing 2nd options, Terry Porter and Kevin Johnson, all while being the best defender on the floor. Even more amazing is that in the 91 finals he not only had more points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks than Lakers 2nd option James Worthy, he had more points, rebounds and steals than EVERY Laker, and more assists than all except Magic. He was literally better at EVERYTHING than EVERY second option he faced in the finals in that first 3peat, and in 91 was the clear cut 2nd best player in the series.


The weak late 90s

Malone and Stockton were together for a dozen years, with Malone never sniffing an MVP and the Jazz never sniffing the finals until both were in their mid 30s. At that point you had 35 year old MJ and Malone as the top 2 players in the league. You had teams dominated by guys in their mid to late 30s winning both conferences in back to back years. Where were all the guys in their 20s? Just an all time low for star talent. And with all the expansion in the early-mid 90s, there were a lot of bad teams floating around also.


Other elite players were on trash teams in early 90s

Jordan was on an elite team with MAYBE the GOAT 2nd option as discussed above.
Barkley was on the trash 76ers
Hakeem was on the trash rockets
DRob was on the trash spurs

When Barkley did get a squad, they put up the best fight of any team, but were hamstrung with KJ being well below his best.

None of this means that he isn't the GOAT. I watched him play growing up and, like I said, I've always considered him to be the greatest ever. But I think it does mean that we can't use 6/6 as an argument for his GOATness. And we can't use rings alone as a reason why other players weren't necessarily as good or better. Context matters.


Uh...his obsessive lunacy has been known for years now. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Michael Jordan actually has a restraining order against the cat.

[Spurs m8]

3ball is always right tbh

[SouBeachTalents]

First off, to claim Pippen was as good of a first option as Kobe or Wade is legit as ludicrous as something 3ball would say. The years they were winning 45 games they were trapped on some of the worst rosters in the entire league, teams Pippen would do no better with, and most likely a lot worse. Pippen simply doesn't have the scoring ability to duplicate what Wade & Kobe did while winning titles in '06 & '09/'10.

Secondly, while Pippen was the best 2nd option of his era, GOAT 2nd option with Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Kobe & Durant/Curry in the convo? Absolutely not

[jstern]

I never use rings as a reason, I'm more about how much they step it up. In terms of the 6/6.

For example, the flu game. Not because it's the flu game, but how he never let up. And that gave himself a better chance of preventing a game 7 in the Finals, potentially leading to losses. While a Lebron, many times he ended up in a game 7 because he settles, and visibly quit in a game six. It's not big of a noticeable difference but preventing that extra bad thing that can lead to a loss is big for me.

Every extra game you have to play, it's an extra opportunity to lose, or something bad to happen.

And you're letting the trolls get to you with the weak competition argument. They're controlling that narrative.

Nobody was arguing, saying that the Jazz were weak. You have to look at what was being said about the team during the era they played, not from fanboys pushing a narrative.

The East has been historically weak for the past 20 years. That's not an agenda being pushed, that's something that you can verify by what was being said each and every year for the past 20 years.

[And1AllDay]

:applause: :applause:

[AussieSteve]

First off, to claim Pippen was as good of a first option as Kobe or Wade is legit as ludicrous as something 3ball would say. The years they were winning 45 games they were trapped on some of the worst rosters in the entire league, teams Pippen would do no better with, and most likely a lot worse. Pippen simply doesn't have the scoring ability to duplicate what Wade & Kobe did while winning titles in '06 & '09/'10.

Secondly, while Pippen was the best 2nd option of his era, GOAT 2nd option with Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Kobe & Durant/Curry in the convo? Absolutely not

Never said Pippen was as good as Kobe. He obvious isn't.

3ball says that
1. Pippen was an average at best 2nd option
2. The rest of the bulls were all bad. Grant for example was their third best player and he was simply a play finisher.
3. Jordan made Phil Jackson.

All in saying is that if 1. and 2. are true then Phil is arguably the GOAT coach. If 1. and 3. are true then Grant and the rest of the crew constituted GOAT depth. And if 2. and 3. are true then Pippen = Kobe. They can't possibly all be true.

My question to 3ball is, which is it?

In reality none of them are true... Pip was great, the rest of the cast was great and Phil was great.

[Jingo]

His plan worked. 3ball is secretly a LeBron fan

[AirFederer]

Poorman

[Leviathon1121]

I honestly wish 3ball would just stfu, at this point LeBron has virtually no chance of ever being ranked over Jordan, but he feels the need to constantly engage a troll and his 10 alts on every topic and then create his own topics. Just let it go man.

[And1AllDay]

Jamie pull up the #2 option Finals stats

https://i.postimg.cc/sX2Pd97y/Jamie_pull_up.png

[AirBonner]

3ball convinced me to place MJ 7th on the GOAT list

[warriorfan]

Op is a Charles Barkley Stan. That

[AirBonner]

[QUOTE=warriorfan]Op is a Charles Barkley Stan. That

[Bronbron23]

tl;dr - 6/6 with 6 FMVPs does not make Jordan the GOAT. He had very favouravable circumstances. Also 3ball is an idiot.





I've always considered MJ the GOAT. I still do. But revealling 3ball's absolute lunacy in recent weeks has raised some doubts.

I'm going to say it.... Michael Jordan was blessed with very favorable circumstances all round and has become horribly overrated

He had an incredibly good supporting cast, an ATG coach and faced all-time low competition, due to either a trash era talent-wise (2nd 3peat) or the other top players in the league being on non-contending teams (1st 3peat).

His incredibly great team.

The Bulls won 55 games and were a touch-foul away form the conference finals in 1994. The next year they lost Grant, their 2nd best player and both All-D and All Star in 94, and were still on track for the 6th seed in the East, before MJ returned. They had a 45 win pace with Pippen playing but not MJ.

That's 55 wins and 45 win pace in back to back seasons, without MJ. For reference Kobe never won more than 45 games in his three prime seasons without a HoF sidekick.

There are a few possible drivers of this. Either...
1.Pippen was as good a first option as guys like Kobe and DWade, who couldn't win as much as Pippen without HoF sidekicks,
2.The depth and role players on that team were all time great, so that even with an average 2nd option (according to 3ball) playing as a first option, they were still a great team.
3. Phil was such a great coach that, even with an average to poor roster (according to 3ball), he was still able to coach them to being one of the better teams in the league.

Whichever way you slice it, MJ was surrounded by a team that was a contender even without him.

Pippen the GOAT 2nd option?

An amazing stat about Pippen is that in BOTH the 92 and 93 finals he had more points, rebounds, assists, steals AND blocks (ie everything), with better efg% than his opposing 2nd options, Terry Porter and Kevin Johnson, all while being the best defender on the floor. Even more amazing is that in the 91 finals he not only had more points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks than Lakers 2nd option James Worthy, he had more points, rebounds and steals than EVERY Laker, and more assists than all except Magic. He was literally better at EVERYTHING than EVERY second option he faced in the finals in that first 3peat, and in 91 was the clear cut 2nd best player in the series.


The weak late 90s

Malone and Stockton were together for a dozen years, with Malone never sniffing an MVP and the Jazz never sniffing the finals until both were in their mid 30s. At that point you had 35 year old MJ and Malone as the top 2 players in the league. You had teams dominated by guys in their mid to late 30s winning both conferences in back to back years. Where were all the guys in their 20s? Just an all time low for star talent. And with all the expansion in the early-mid 90s, there were a lot of bad teams floating around also.


Other elite players were on trash teams in early 90s

Jordan was on an elite team with MAYBE the GOAT 2nd option as discussed above.
Barkley was on the trash 76ers
Hakeem was on the trash rockets
DRob was on the trash spurs

When Barkley did get a squad, they put up the best fight of any team, but were hamstrung with KJ being well below his best.

None of this means that he isn't the GOAT. I watched him play growing up and, like I said, I've always considered him to be the greatest ever. But I think it does mean that we can't use 6/6 as an argument for his GOATness. And we can't use rings alone as a reason why other players weren't necessarily as good or better. Context matters.
Few problems with some of your points.

Mj's supporting cast and second option: pip was a great second option I won't deny that. He's nowhere near the best ever though. I shouldn't even have to list the others that were better. Pip was a defensive monster but nothing special offensively, especially in the post season. Another thing is that pip came up under mj's leadership. Do you think pip becomes the player he was if he didn't get to play and practice with the most competitive player ever? Why does Bron get credit for making players better but mj doesn't get any credit for making pip better?
As far his supporting cast it was probably one of the worst offensive championship supporting cast ever. The bulls identity was more defensive than anything. Bron has had way better offensive help through his championship runs and it's not even close really.

Coaching: I agree that having Phil was an advantage. I've said this many times myself. LeBron doesn't get any credit for that fact though because he pretty much refuses to be coached. He wants all the credit for himself. He wants to be the player coach and the system. He would have way more chips if he was willing to be coached and play within a system like mj did.

Competition: yes and no. It depends on when your talking. It's not like LeBron has only lost because he went up against teams that were better. He always had the better team in Miami and he still lost 2 out of 4. unlike mj he has lost to worse teams in the finals. Both Mavs and spurs were worse than the heat. The heat had 3 all stars those years. The 2 years they lost they lost to teams that only had one all star and the weren't even first team.
The last few years yes the warriors had the better team. Again though this comes down to coaching and playing within a system. The warriors do that. Do you think the warriors would be as successful if steph wanted to play like LeBron and dominate the ball most of the game? The fact that Brons Cleveland team under performed because of LeBrons unwillingness to play within a system doesn't get to be used as an excuse. There's no reason Kyrie and love shouldn't have been all stars while in Cleveland with Lebron.

Listen I'm both a mj and Bron fan. Rare yeah I know. One of the most frustrating things about being a LeBron fan is knowing that if he would of just put his ego aside and allow himself to be coached he would have tied mj's 6 rings by now. He could of went to the spurs with pop after Miami and I bet he'd have 6 or 7 rings by now. He could of went last year and they would have a had a chance to win a chip this year.

[sekachu]

Few problems with some of your points.

Mj's supporting cast and second option: pip was a great second option I won't deny that. He's nowhere near the best ever though. I shouldn't even have to list the others that were better. Pip was a defensive monster but nothing special offensively, especially in the post season. Another thing is that pip came up under mj's leadership. Do you think pip becomes the player he was if he didn't get to play and practice with the most competitive player ever? Why does Bron get credit for making players better but mj doesn't get any credit for making pip better?
As far his supporting cast it was probably one of the worst offensive championship supporting cast ever. The bulls identity was more defensive than anything. Bron has had way better offensive help through his championship runs and it's not even close really.

Coaching: I agree that having Phil was an advantage. I've said this many times myself. LeBron doesn't get any credit for that fact though because he pretty much refuses to be coached. He wants all the credit for himself. He wants to be the player coach and the system. He would have way more chips if he was willing to be coached and play within a system like mj did.

Competition: yes and no. It depends on when your talking. It's not like LeBron has only lost because he went up against teams that were better. He always had the better team in Miami and he still lost 2 out of 4. unlike mj he has lost to worse teams in the finals. Both Mavs and spurs were worse than the heat. The heat had 3 all stars those years. The 2 years they lost they lost to teams that only had one all star and the weren't even first team.
The last few years yes the warriors had the better team. Again though this comes down to coaching and playing within a system. The warriors do that. Do you think the warriors would be as successful if steph wanted to play like LeBron and dominate the ball most of the game? The fact that Brons Cleveland team under performed because of LeBrons unwillingness to play within a system doesn't get to be used as an excuse. There's no reason Kyrie and love shouldn't have been all stars while in Cleveland with Lebron.

Listen I'm both a mj and Bron fan. Rare yeah I know. One of the most frustrating things about being a LeBron fan is knowing that if he would of just put his ego aside and allow himself to be coached he would have tied mj's 6 rings by now. He could of went to the spurs with pop after Miami and I bet he'd have 6 or 7 rings by now. He could of went last year and they would have a had a chance to win a chip this year.


Great post


1. Pippen might not become who he is if he never play alongside with MJ

2. MJ did make his team better, not only play great with MJ but able to maintain playoff contender without him. That is the true leadership and inspiration. I don't think this team would exist if that was lebron

[SpaceJam2]

I pulled all the data, so you tell me where does Scottie rank among the GOAT second options with regard to at least 3 appearances as #2 option?

Scottie Pippen (1991, 1992, 1993)
21/9/7 with 1.94 spg, .88 bpg on 46% FG (DRrtg 104)

Magic Johnson (1984, 1985, 1988)
19/7/13 with 2.05 spg, 0.35 bpg on 53% FG (DRtg 108)

Kobe Bryant (2000, 2001, 2002)
22/6/5 with 1.28 spg, 1.21 bpg on 42% FG (DRtg 108)

Dwyane Wade (2012, 2013, 2014)
19/4/4 with 1.64 spg, .88 bpg on 45% FG (DRtg 112)

Scottie's rank among the 4 candidates
PPG: 2nd
RPG: 1st
APG: 2nd
SPG: 2nd
BPG: 2nd
FG%: 2nd
DRTg: 1st

[Soundwave]

Who gives a sh*t what you think? You can think Smush Parker is the GOAT if it helps you sleep at night.

The consensus from most fans, players, and media is that Jordan is the GOAT. Don't like it, you can go slip into your own alternate reality and stick your head in the sand if that works for you.

[Soundwave]

I pulled all the data, so you tell me where does Scottie rank among the GOAT second options with regard to at least 3 appearances as #2 option?

Scottie Pippen (1991, 1992, 1993)
21/9/7 with 1.94 spg, .88 bpg on 46% FG (DRrtg 104)

Magic Johnson (1984, 1985, 1988)
19/7/13 with 2.05 spg, 0.35 bpg on 53% FG (DRtg 108)

Kobe Bryant (2000, 2001, 2002)
22/6/5 with 1.28 spg, 1.21 bpg on 42% FG (DRtg 108)

Dwyane Wade (2012, 2013, 2014)
19/4/4 with 1.64 spg, .88 bpg on 45% FG (DRtg 112)

Scottie's rank among the 4 candidates
PPG: 2nd
RPG: 1st
APG: 2nd
SPG: 2nd
BPG: 2nd
FG%: 2nd
DRTg: 1st

And what are Scottie's numbers for the second three-peat? Notice you don't want to talk about that. 17 ppg on like a mediocre 41% shooting percentage. Yeah what a superstar.

[jstern]

Few problems with some of your points.

Mj's supporting cast and second option: pip was a great second option I won't deny that. He's nowhere near the best ever though. I shouldn't even have to list the others that were better. Pip was a defensive monster but nothing special offensively, especially in the post season. Another thing is that pip came up under mj's leadership. Do you think pip becomes the player he was if he didn't get to play and practice with the most competitive player ever? Why does Bron get credit for making players better but mj doesn't get any credit for making pip better?
As far his supporting cast it was probably one of the worst offensive championship supporting cast ever. The bulls identity was more defensive than anything. Bron has had way better offensive help through his championship runs and it's not even close really.

Coaching: I agree that having Phil was an advantage. I've said this many times myself. LeBron doesn't get any credit for that fact though because he pretty much refuses to be coached. He wants all the credit for himself. He wants to be the player coach and the system. He would have way more chips if he was willing to be coached and play within a system like mj did.

Competition: yes and no. It depends on when your talking. It's not like LeBron has only lost because he went up against teams that were better. He always had the better team in Miami and he still lost 2 out of 4. unlike mj he has lost to worse teams in the finals. Both Mavs and spurs were worse than the heat. The heat had 3 all stars those years. The 2 years they lost they lost to teams that only had one all star and the weren't even first team.
The last few years yes the warriors had the better team. Again though this comes down to coaching and playing within a system. The warriors do that. Do you think the warriors would be as successful if steph wanted to play like LeBron and dominate the ball most of the game? The fact that Brons Cleveland team under performed because of LeBrons unwillingness to play within a system doesn't get to be used as an excuse. There's no reason Kyrie and love shouldn't have been all stars while in Cleveland with Lebron.

Listen I'm both a mj and Bron fan. Rare yeah I know. One of the most frustrating things about being a LeBron fan is knowing that if he would of just put his ego aside and allow himself to be coached he would have tied mj's 6 rings by now. He could of went to the spurs with pop after Miami and I bet he'd have 6 or 7 rings by now. He could of went last year and they would have a had a chance to win a chip this year.

The problem with Lebron and being coached, and playing within a system is that Lebron only knows how to play one way. He puts up great stats playing that one way, and as great as those stats are, he's just not, I don't want to say skilled, but for a lack of a better word, he's not skilled enough to adjust his game and play a different style that will allow his team to play more of a game that suits everyone.

[SpaceJam2]

And what are Scottie's numbers for the second three-peat? Notice you don't want to talk about that. 17 ppg on like a mediocre 41% shooting percentage. Yeah what a superstar.

So he was still GOAT #2 for 3 Finals and the 1st 3-peat? :lol

[3ball]

tl;dr - 6/6 with 6 FMVPs does not make Jordan the GOAT.

He had very favouravable circumstances. Also 3ball is an idiot.



The gap between #1 and #2 is bigger than between #2 and #10:



Career PPG Playoffs

Jordan...... 33.5


Iverson..... 29.7
West......... 29.1
Lebron...... 28.9
Durant...... 28.8
Barry......... 27.3
Elgin......... 27.0
Gervin...... 26.5
Curry........ 26.0
Hakeem... 25.9
Kobe.........25.6


A team is never built optimally if 1 guy scores far more PPG than everyone in history, with a goat edge over his 2nd option.

So the idea that the bulls were built well is poppycock - MJ was goat in PPG, PER, WS/48 - so he was doing more per game than anyone ever...

He's also in the argument for goat perimeter defender and led the bulls in APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen

Again, this kind of ridiculous scoring load and all-round play isn't "optimal" for any team, but the goat made it work





His incredibly great team.

The Bulls won 55 games and were a touch-foul away form the conference finals in 1994. The next year they lost Grant, their 2nd best player and both All-D and All Star in 94, and were still on track for the 6th seed in the East, before MJ returned. They had a 45 win pace with Pippen playing but not MJ.

That's 55 wins and 45 win pace in back to back seasons, without MJ. For reference Kobe never won more than 45 games in his three prime seasons without a HoF sidekick.

MJ was surrounded by a team that was a contender even without him.


The same roster that three-peated in 1993 only won 47 games in 1989, and would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ.. In other words, MJ started with a lottery cast of unproductive young players

1994 simply proved that the Bulls developed a great system for this lottery cast to grow and thrive - the system was 2nd round WITHOUT mj's goat skillset fitting in seamlessly, and 6-time unbeatable champion WITH it (true goat skillsets aren't limited and have the capacity/repertoire to adjust)

Btw, the Bulls' triangle needed scoring champion production from the #1 option to win a ring - it never won without it.. And only MJ won a ring and the scoring title in the same year (6 times), along with Kareem/Shaq once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00'.. These were the only skillsets goat enough to fit scoring champion amounts into a championship/winning framework





Pippen the GOAT 2nd option?


.
Pippen was really bad in MOST of the big series the bulls played:... :eek:



1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%
1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2% (9.7 on 40.4% in ecf)

1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8% (2 pts, 1-10 in game 7)

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1994 ECSF vs NYN:. 21.7 on 40.5% (worst-ever 1st option w/ goat choke)

1995 ECSF vs ORL:. 19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%


Pippen's stats in 96-98 Playoffs - 17 on 40%


^^^ Those stats show that Pippen was only good for 3 years alongside MJ - 1991-1993 - he sucked the other years - 88-90' and 95-98'

And despite his best years, the 91-93' Bulls still had weaker on-paper talent than their Finals opponents and numerous other opponents because they got murdered at the #3-12 spots

This is common knowledge

Furthermore, any player with 3+ rings had a better 2nd option for 3 runs or more - i.e. lebron (11-13' and many would argue 16' as well)

But MJ won 3 rings without the best 2nd option from 96-98' - Pippen averaged 17 on 40.8% for the 96-98' playoffs, while old Rodman averaged 4/8 in the 97' playoffs and wasn't the starter in 98' playoffs.






The weak late 90s

Malone and Stockton were together for a dozen years, with Malone never sniffing an MVP and the Jazz never sniffing the finals until both were in their mid 30s. At that point you had 35 year old MJ and Malone as the top 2 players in the league. You had teams dominated by guys in their mid to late 30s winning both conferences in back to back years. Where were all the guys in their 20s? Just an all time low for star talent. And with all the expansion in the early-mid 90s, there were a lot of bad teams floating around also.



It's a common fact that parity (even playing field) makes it harder to win, not easier

The 90's jazz, sonics, lakers, rockets and suns were all Finals teams - they had to beat each other (fellow Finals teams) to make the Finals.. Otoh, today's conferences each have 1 super-team that has an auto-pass to the Finals (heat/spurs and cavs/warriors)

Whereas everything had to fall perfectly to make the Finals in the 90's West - 4-5 teams took turns having their monumental year and losing to MJ in the Finals.. but the peak of these teams was every bit as high as the spurs/warriors' peak - any of those teams could've beaten the Warriors/Spurs, just like Houston showed last year or the clippers showed this year





Other elite players were on trash teams in early 90s


Ditto this era

Dwight would've made more Finals after 2009 if he teamed up with 2 other superstars - but Lebron was the guy that did it, so he made all the Finals

Lebron was the only player that got to team up with 2 other stars, until Durant did his thing in 2017

And Lebron never beat anyone tough in the East.. cakewalks..only defeated half the 50-win teams as MJ

But most importantly - most casts were better on paper than the bulls in the 90's





. But I think it does mean that we can't use 6/6 as an argument for his GOATness.


MJ is goat because only MJ has goat levels of rings, stars, and accolades

Finals record isn't even necessary

However, it's a true symbol of goatness because it's a result OF goatness.. only the goat can be 6/6.. 6/6 is a function of the unbeatable teams that resulted when MJ successfully fit GOAT scoring and clutch into an equal-opportunity system
.

[And1AllDay]

The gap between #1 and #2 is bigger than between #2 and #10:



Career PPG Playoffs

Jordan...... 33.5


Iverson..... 29.7
West......... 29.1
Lebron...... 28.9
Durant...... 28.8
Barry......... 27.3
Elgin......... 27.0
Gervin...... 26.5
Curry........ 26.0
Hakeem... 25.9
Kobe.........25.6





Kobe 11th? Shaq not even top 11? Nah fake news. Ricky Barry above Shaq, Kobe, Kareem :oldlol:

Everyone knows heres the true list nice try 1ball

https://i.postimg.cc/g20pk497/Playoffpointslisttt.jpg