Players who were outperformed in the NBA Finals and still won

[TheCorporation]

1996 Jordan GmSc = 18.5 :(
1996 Kemp GmSc = 18.9

2015 Curry GmSc = 17.9 :(
2015 LeBron GmSc = 24.6

2004 Billups GmSc = 17.9
2004 Shaq GmSc = 18.7

Can we add any others to the list?

HM:
2011 LeBron GmSc = 13.7 (but he did't win)
2011 Dirk GmSc = 16.6

[Gileraracer]

There's multiple players on every championship team that where outplayed as some point by an opponent.

[TheCorporation]

There's multiple players on every championship team that where outplayed as some point by an opponent.

#1 options that were outplayed and still won?

I've listed three, feel free to add more to the list. So far it's Curry, Jordan, and Billups

[Gileraracer]

oh now suddenly it is #1 options :roll:



Lebron wasn't #1 option in 2011.

[TheCorporation]

oh now suddenly it is #1 options :roll:



Lebron wasn't #1 option in 2011.

Of course #1 options plus LeBron didn't win in 2011, right? You're very slow so I'll repeat it

Which star players were outperformed in the NBA Finals and still won

[bullettooth]

Look at this shook Bronsexual... still butthurt over those 6 finals losses.

[LostCause]

Fortunately, Jordan never had Gamescores of 10 and 13 for entire series. So this is a compliment considering his lowest was still good, and still arguably the best in that series . In other words, good enough to win

Arguably being outperformed in the Finals by Drew Golden though? Yikes

[superduper]

Why did Wade in 2012 and 2013 have higher Gamescore than LeGOAT in 2011?

:eek: :eek:

[TheCorporation]

Why did Wade in 2012 and 2013 have higher Gamescore than LeGOAT in 2011?

:eek: :eek:

Imagine being outplayed by Shawn Kemp in a Finals and having a 2015 Curry Finalsesque performance and still winning

He's an icon, but not the GOAT

[egokiller]

Why are you still posting?

Go see the sun.

Leave your mom

[3ball]

Players who were outperformed in the NBA Finals and still won

1996 Jordan GmSc = 18.5 :(
1996 Kemp GmSc = 18.9

2015 Curry GmSc = 17.9 :(
2015 LeBron GmSc = 24.6

2004 Billups GmSc = 17.9
2004 Shaq GmSc = 18.7

Can we add any others to the list?
.
MJ won MVP because he was the best when the series was in the balance - that's how MVP is awarded, not for garbage time after the series is over

Gamescore thru 3 games (3-0 Bulls lead)


Jordan. - 23.7 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/#134-136-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)
S Kemp - 19.3 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kempsh01/gamelog/1996/#57-59-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)



And overall, gamescore isn't a substantial argument.. it's one stat... Otoh - this is substantial:


Lebron averaged 16 on 39% (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2013/#132-134-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs) thru 3 games of the 13' Finals

yet still won


Lebron averaged 23 on 43% (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2013/#132-137-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs) thru 6 games

yet still won


Lebron didn't hit the big shot (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5zYoE0OzoBU) (didn't close)

yet still won


Lebron was a net negative for the series (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/advanced/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

yet still won.
.

[superduper]

Imagine being outplayed by Shawn Kemp in a Finals and having a 2015 Curry Finalsesque performance and still winning

He's an icon, but not the GOAT

Why did Wade in 2012 and 2013 have higher Gamescore than LeGOAT in 2011?

:eek: :eek:

[SpaceJam2]

So who else?

[3ball]

So who else?
MJ wasn't outperformed in the 96' Finals or any Finals, so he
always won.. :confusedshrug:


Otoh, lebron was outperformed in the 07', 11', 13', 14', 15', 17' and 18' Finals, so he lost them all, except for when ray saved him

[LostCause]

Imagine being outplayed by Shawn Kemp in a Finals and having a 2015 Curry Finalsesque performance and still winning

He's an icon, but not the GOAT

Drew Gooden

[SpaceJam2]

Drew Gooden
Game score?

Bye

[LostCause]

Game score?

Bye

LeBron barely edged out Drew Gooden by 1

Repeat that name slowly

Drew..... Gooden :lol

Bron had 2 Drew Gooden-esque Finals runs :lol

[SpaceJam2]

LeBron barely edged out Drew Gooden by 1

Repeat that name slowly

Drew..... Gooden :lol

Bron had 2 Drew Gooden-esque Finals runs :lol

Game Score please?

Did he win? :hammerhead:

Next

[SpaceJam2]

1996 Jordan GmSc = 18.5 :(
1996 Kemp GmSc = 18.9

2015 Curry GmSc = 17.9 :(
2015 LeBron GmSc = 24.6

2004 Billups GmSc = 17.9
2004 Shaq GmSc = 18.7

Can we add any others to the list?

HM:
2011 LeBron GmSc = 13.7 (but he did't win)
2011 Dirk GmSc = 16.6

Can we add someone else to the "All-Carried List" ???

[Gougou]

Kawhi avged like 17 pts in 2014 finals and he still won MVP.

[TheCorporation]

Kawhi avged like 17 pts in 2014 finals and he still won MVP.

Good addition

2014 Kawhi GmSc = 15.8
2014 LeBron GmSc = 22.5


Updated list:

1996 Jordan GmSc = 18.5
1996 Kemp GmSc = 18.9

2004 Billups GmSc = 17.9
2004 Shaq GmSc = 18.7

2014 Kawhi GmSc = 15.8
2014 LeBron GmSc = 22.5

2015 Curry GmSc = 17.9
2015 LeBron GmSc = 24.6

Results:

MJ was outplayed by Kemp but had the better team
Billups was outplayed by Shaq but had the better team
Kawhi was outplayed by LeBron but had the better team
Curry was outplayed by LeBron but had the better team

Can we add any others to the list?

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Game Score is meaningless and is skewed for certain type of players. Not at all stats are created equal....

[3ball]

Good addition

2014 Kawhi GmSc = 15.8
2014 LeBron GmSc = 22.5


Updated list:

1996 Jordan GmSc = 18.5
1996 Kemp GmSc = 18.9

2004 Billups GmSc = 17.9
2004 Shaq GmSc = 18.7

2014 Kawhi GmSc = 15.8
2014 LeBron GmSc = 22.5

2015 Curry GmSc = 17.9
2015 LeBron GmSc = 24.6


Can we add any others to the list?


The more MVP's you add to the list, the weaker your already weak argument becomes .. :oldlol:

Go ahead, add some more to the list
.

[72-10]

Ask any player and they'd tell you MJ outplayed, if only by a bit. Although Kemp was guarded by Rodman, he played nearer the basket. MJ had DPOY GP and All-Star Hawkins switching off on him defensively whilst relying on mid-range game.

[SpaceJam2]

The more MVP's you add to the list, the weaker your already weak argument becomes .. :oldlol:

Go ahead, add some more to the list
.

All-Carried List

MJ, Curry, Billups

What's the problem

[3ball]

All-Carried List

MJ, Curry, Billups

What's the problem
In other words - a lot of mvp's had lower gamescores, so gamescore is a bad indicator

If MJ was the only MVP to do it, then it's like "oh wow, MJ was the only MVP to have lower gamescore"...

But a lot of guys did it.. so who cares.. I told you already - come up with something more substantial... Of course, there is nothing because MJ's goat, which is why ur grasping at straws and weak arguments

You don't have killer arguments like 3/9, collusion, Leastern conference, underdogs/loser despite Wade/Kyrie, ball-domination/low assist teams, reduces teammates, can't play off-ball, and so much more... Less mvp's, less scoring titles, less accolades, less dpoy, etc
.

[And1AllDay]

In other words - a lot of mvp's had lower gamescores, so gamescore is a bad indicator

If MJ was the only MVP to do it, then it's like "oh wow, MJ was the only MVP to have lower gamescore"...

But a lot of guys did it.. so who cares.. I told you already - come up with something more substantial... Of course, there is nothing because MJ's goat, which is why ur grasping at straws and weak arguments

You don't have killer arguments like 3/9, collusion, Leastern conference, underdogs/loser despite Wade/Kyrie, ball-domination/low assist teams, reduces teammates, can't play off-ball, and so much more... Less mvp's, less scoring titles, less accolades, less dpoy, etc
.

Is Mike the only guy in the top 10 list tho?

Mike Jordan
Billups
Curry
Kawhi

Does someone not belong here? :oldlol: Or maybe Mike does belong in the discussion since he used to be consensus top 5 and now he is top 25?

[3ball]

.
MJ won MVP because he was the best when the series was in the balance - that's how MVP is awarded, not for garbage time after the series is over

Gamescore thru 3 games (3-0 Bulls lead)


Jordan. - 23.7 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/#134-136-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)
S Kemp - 19.3 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kempsh01/gamelog/1996/#57-59-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs)



And overall, gamescore isn't a substantial argument.. it's one stat... Otoh - this is substantial:


Lebron averaged 16 on 39% (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2013/#132-134-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs) thru 3 games of the 13' Finals

yet still won


Lebron averaged 23 on 43% (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2013/#132-137-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs) thru 6 games

yet still won


Lebron didn't hit the big shot (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5zYoE0OzoBU) (didn't close)

yet still won


Lebron was a net negative for the series (https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/advanced/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

yet still won.
.

[3ball]

:MJ wasn't outperformed in the 96' Finals or any Finals, so he
always won.. :confusedshrug:


Otoh, lebron was outperformed in the 07', 11', 13', 14', 15', 17' and 18' Finals, so he lost them all, except for when ray saved him
.

[3ball]

Is Mike the only guy in the top 10 list tho?

Mike Jordan
Billups
Curry
Kawhi

Does someone not belong here? :oldlol: Or maybe Mike does belong in the discussion since he used to be consensus top 5 and now he is top 25?
lebron has many Finals where he sucked so he lost

whereas MJ was never outplayed like lebron, so he never lost.. MJ has 6 fmvps and was great in all of them.

It's a dumb argument to begin with that I destroyed about 5 times itt already - see the last 2 posts

[SouBeachTalents]

:MJ wasn't outperformed in the 96' Finals or any Finals, so he
always won.. :confusedshrug:


Otoh, lebron was outperformed in the 07', 11', 13', 14', 15', 17' and 18' Finals, so he lost them all, except for when ray saved him
.
By who?

[3ball]

By who?
Ray Allen was +7.2 net efficiency in the 2013 finals, while Lebron had a negative 0.2

So the Heat lost with lebron on the floor, but this was offset by Ray Allen so they won the series

In 2014, lebron was worse than Wade when the games were within 10 points and got outplayed by Kawhi (24 ppg on 70% for games 3-5)

2015 is subjective - when Iverson shot 39% on huge volume, he was bad... but lebron is great when he does it with a WORSE brand than iverson.. lebron dominated the ball more than anyone ever has (12.2 minutes compared to harden's 9.5 this year), while his team was massively out-assisted - his teammates collectively shot better than him and it benefitted the warriors to let him iso over and over at 39% a pop, just like Stan van Gundy let him do.. lebron is so easy to exploit and he was exploited in that series... Then there's DEFENSE....

[And1AllDay]

Ray Allen was +7.2 net efficiency in the 2013 finals, while Lebron had a negative 0.2

So the Heat lost with lebron on the floor, but this was offset by Ray Allen so they won the series

In 2014, lebron was worse than Wade when the games were within 10 points and got outplayed by Kawhi (24 ppg on 70% for games 3-5)

2015 is subjective - when Iverson shot 39% on huge volume, he was bad... but lebron is great when he does it with a WORSE brand than iverson.. lebron dominated the ball more than anyone ever has (12.2 minutes compared to harden's 9.5 this year), while his team was massively out-assisted - his teammates collectively shot better than him and it benefitted the warriors to let him iso over and over at 39% a pop, just like Stan van Gundy let him do.. lebron is so easy to exploit and he was exploited in that series... Then there's DEFENSE....

Post game score or you lose thanks

Kemp > Jordan in 96

[And1AllDay]

lebron has many Finals where he sucked so he lost

whereas MJ was never outplayed like lebron, so he never lost.. MJ has 6 fmvps and was great in all of them.

It's a dumb argument to begin with that I destroyed about 5 times itt already - see the last 2 posts

You didnt destroy anything you never do

Mike still won a ring in 96 but was outplayed why is this becos his team was better not becos Mike was great

How does this not click with you

[LostCause]

Post game score or you lose thanks

Kemp > Jordan in 96

https://2kmtcentral.com/img/players/16/generated/4594i2.png/cache-1480015423/4594i2.png

[Cali Syndicate]

Imagine being outplayed by Shawn Kemp in a Finals and having a 2015 Curry Finalsesque performance and still winning

He's an icon, but not the GOAT

Imagine people calling LeBron the GOAT but the FMVP was awarded to the opposing teams forward in 5 of the 6 loses.

[And1AllDay]

Imagine people calling LeBron the GOAT but the FMVP was awarded to the opposing teams forward in 5 of the 6 loses.

Imagine people calling Mike the GOAT but the FMVP was awarded to the opposing teams players like Bird and Isiah and Dumars in the 1st and 2nd round :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Leviathon1121]

Imagine people calling Mike the GOAT but the FMVP was awarded to the opposing teams players like Bird and Isiah and Dumars in the 1st and 2nd round :oldlol: :oldlol:
This doesn

[And1AllDay]

[QUOTE=Leviathon1121]This doesn

[paksat]

I wonder who took the time to dream up these "advanced" stats

the same ones that have crap like gary payton not even in the top 200 in defensive guards of all time

these same stat geeks are why we watching this pitiful "basketball" of today which consists of chucking 3's till the 4th quarter has finally, painfully, run out