is Jokic a top 10 player in the NBA?

[dankok8]

Averages 25/12/9 in the postseason... He's still learning the game on defense but he can't be ignored at this point.

[SouBeachTalents]

:biggums: How wouldn't he be :lol

[iamgine]

I think he definitely is top 10.

A better question would be, is he a low top 10 (Like rank 8-12) or he's nearer to top 5?

[kells333]

Giannis
Kd
Bron
Ad
Harden
Steph
Kawhi

Russ
Embiid

Kyrie
Lillard
Pg

I think all these players have a solid arguement over jokic

[NBAGOAT]

Giannis
Kd
Bron
Ad
Harden
Steph
Kawhi

Russ
Embiid

Kyrie
Lillard
Pg

I think all these players have a solid arguement over jokic

for just this year no on ad or russ. Also can easily argue jokic over kyrie or lillard

[GOBB]

No he

[Milbuck]

Giannis
Kd
Bron
Ad
Harden
Steph
Kawhi

Russ
Embiid

Kyrie
Lillard
Pg

I think all these players have a solid arguement over jokic
He's pretty easily better than Russ this year and I'd say Kyrie as well.

[BallsOut]

Yes

Kawhi
KD
Lillard
Giannis
Harden
George
Curry
Embiid
Jokic
Irving

[highwhey]

No he’s not.
i mean, he's delivered a better overall performance than embiid. i know joel has a ******l tearing that is slowing him down, but Jokic has delivered a top 10 playoff performance thus far. it's a little unfair to Bron and AD since they are out, so that's why I'll say he has delivered a top 10 performance this year. cheers fellow philadelphia fan.

[imdaman99]

Easily top 10. By easily I mean in the 8-9 range.

[red1]

he's playing like it.

[NuggetsFan]

I mean easily. He was before the playoffs even started. He took a team without no other All-Stars to the 2nd seed in the West. Nuggets had a ton of injuries too, at one point were down 3 starters. He has has the 3rd best case for MVP behind Harden/Giannis.

After the playoffs? Better question is if he's a top 5 player. Giannis, Curry, Durant, Harden, LeBron, Leonard. Davis would be a good argument.

[Smoke117]

Obviously. :rolleyes:

[imdaman99]

After the playoffs? Better question is if he's a top 5 player. Giannis, Curry, Durant, Harden, LeBron, Leonard. Davis would be a good argument.
He is easily more valuable to a team than Davis is. I know this is the first year he's in the playoffs but he's done more than AD ever has in the couple of years Davis has been. I've just moved him to the 7th best. Over Embiid.

[NuggetsFan]

He is easily more valuable to a team than Davis is. I know this is the first year he's in the playoffs but he's done more than AD ever has in the couple of years Davis has been. I've just moved him to the 7th best.

Yeah as a Nuggets fan I'd probably only take 5 guys over him. He just does so much for the offense. Can score on all 3 levels. Cleaned up his defense. Jokic as a 20 point guy is a good conversation vs Davis. An aggressive Jokic putting up 25 is an entirely different animal.

I could see somebody taking Davis over him. I'd probably have Jokic 6th/7th overall as well.

[stalkerforlife]

LMAO @ top 10.

At the least he's top 5.

[stalkerforlife]

Giannis
Kd
Bron
Ad
Harden
Steph
Kawhi

Russ
Embiid

Kyrie
Lillard
Pg

I think all these players have a solid arguement over jokic

Buahahahauahahaha.

[atljonesbro]

Easily. He’s pushing top 5

[Mask the Embiid]

Giannis
AD
Curry
Harden
LeBron
Durant
Kawhi
Embiid
Westbrook
Blake Griffin


i got him right outside my top 10 @ 12 behind Lillard

[Manny98]

1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Kawhi
4. Giannis

5. Curry
6. Harden
7. AD

8. EmChoke
9. Jokic
10. Lillard

[Manny98]

People still have Westbrook in there top 10s :roll: :roll: :roll:

[tontoz]

Giannis
Kd
Harden
Steph
Kawhi
LeBron

Those are the 6 I would take over Jokic for sure.
After that I would have to think about it.

AD maybe
PG13 maybe

Don't see a good case for anyone else.

[elementally morale]

He is. Easily.

Basketball is not one on one. It's 5 on 5. Jokic may not be a top 10 individual player but as far as his impact on the game is concerned he is top 5ish. Imapct-wise (real value)... who do I have in the top 10?

Kawhi
Durant
Curry
Giannis
Jokic
Embiid
LeBron
Harden

And I can't fill out the rest. These 8 players are in the top 10.

[tpols]

kawhi
chef
durant
jokic
giannis

[GOBB]

It

[90sgoat]

Who is better?

Durant and Kawhi

That's pretty much it.

Giannis has an absolutely stacked team. Middleton, Bledsoe, Mirotic, Lopez, Brogdon, George Hill, Ilyasova, Connaughton

That team is both deep and top heavy.

Give Jokic that and he sweeps the East.

[stalkerforlife]

You stupid asses talking about Bran over Jokic.

Buahahahaha.

Ship has sailed.

Unless the NBA gives Bran another superstar or two, he will never even make the playoffs in the west.

[stalkerforlife]

[QUOTE=GOBB]It

[NuggetsFan]

[QUOTE=GOBB]It

[tontoz]

It’s funny reading comments. Guy is having a damn good post season and now he’s better than the likes of Anthony Davis. And we start making separate rankings in terms of impact and not individuals. Only on ISH. I expect that from nuggets fans because well they are fans. But non Nugget fans are amusing.

Another thing I notice is posters here like quiet humble modest will work for free players over guys with personalities. He’s too loud. He’s too cocky. He jokes too much.


Jokic carried a team with no other All-Stars to the 2nd seed in the west. He has been even better in the playoffs.

He had the top RPM among centers during the regular season at 6.19

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/position/9

AD played only 1850 minutes this season compared to 2500 for Jokic. AD has played under 70 games in 5 of his 7 seasons. How valuable can you be on the bench?

[dude77]

lol@this thread .. if he was black y'all would be arguing whether he's top 5

[Mask the Embiid]

lol@this thread .. if he was black y'all would be arguing whether he's top 5
nah....we wouldnt thats the thing


Boogie....

[NuggetsFan]

nah....we wouldnt thats the thing


Boogie....

Jokic just took a team without another All-Star to the 2nd seed and in his first playoff app has them in the 2nd round and he just turned 24 years old. 2nd season as a full time starter, in his first two years he was switched back and forth. Putting up ridiculous numbers. I mean look at the minutes he's playing. He's leading the playoffs in touches as a ****ing C in 2019 :oldlol:

When has Cousins ever done anything like that before?

[Mask the Embiid]

Jokic just took a team without another All-Star to the 2nd seed and in his first playoff app has them in the 2nd round and he just turned 24 years old. 2nd season as a full time starter, in his first two years he was switched back and forth. Putting up ridiculous numbers. I mean look at the minutes he's playing. He's leading the playoffs in touches as a ****ing C in 2019 :oldlol:

When has Cousins ever done anything like that before?
These stats are not real....He's playing against Kanter,Poltl, Mylers Leonard, and Collins.


Reality is gonna come crashing down next round if he plays the Warriors...some people won't believe things until they see it 1st hand...you will see though...Keep pretending like those arent some of the worst centers in the league all you want....you will see next round the truth of what he really is

you better fkin pray Houston knocks them off

[FireDavidKahn]

These stats are not real....He's playing against Kanter,Poltl, Mylers Leonard, and Collins.


Reality is gonna come crashing down next round if he plays the Warriors...some people won't believe things until they see it 1st hand...you will see though...Keep pretending like those arent some of the worst centers in the league all you want....you will see next round the truth of what he really is

you better fkin pray Houston knocks them off
He did this all year long...

[Mask the Embiid]

He did this all year long...
Didnt do it against bogut...Wont do it against bogut...

[RealSkipBayless]

KD
Kawhi
Lebron
Giannis
Embiid
Davis
Curry
Harden
Lillard


Depends if you put him at 10 over PG/Irving

[NuggetsFan]

These stats are not real....He's playing against Kanter,Poltl, Mylers Leonard, and Collins.


Reality is gonna come crashing down next round if he plays the Warriors...some people won't believe things until they see it 1st hand...you will see though...Keep pretending like those arent some of the worst centers in the league all you want....you will see next round the truth of what he really is

you better fkin pray Houston knocks them off

The thing is that I won't even be shocked if he slows down abit. He's logging insane minutes and it's his first time in the playoffs.

Teams throw everything at him. S.A doubled him like crazy at times. Every team who faces Denver game plans to shut down Jokic because he's literally our entire engine. He has more responsibility with the offense than anybody in the league arguably. He was at one point leading the entire NBA in touches in the playoffs.

Jokic leads his team in PPG/APG/RPG and SPG in the regular season. How many C's have done that? How many players this year or in the past few years have done that?

Jokic has his flaws, he can be passive at times, but there's no denying he's a top 10 player and when he's locked in playing aggressive he's closer to 5 than he is too 10.

[GOBB]

Jokic carried a team with no other All-Stars to the 2nd seed in the west. He has been even better in the playoffs.

He had the top RPM among centers during the regular season at 6.19

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/position/9

AD played only 1850 minutes this season compared to 2500 for Jokic. AD has played under 70 games in 5 of his 7 seasons. How valuable can you be on the bench?

Denver has talent. You

[NuggetsFan]

[QUOTE=GOBB]Denver has talent. You

[GOBB]

So there

[NuggetsFan]

[QUOTE=GOBB]So there

[GOBB]

Both. Maybe not mainstream media because nobody cares enough about Denver but I've absolutely seen on other sites like reddit people ranking Jokic higher.

That's fair. We can agree on that. All 3 have a case, I take Jokic just because I think he has a larger impact/better to build an offense around. I also don't see him staying as a 25/12/9 player because that's just straight up ridiculous. Ignoring health of course, because with Embiid that's obviously a gigantic knock.

If Jokic never slows down and this is what you come to expect in the playoffs, obviously that starts a new conversation.

Well I admit I

[tontoz]

Denver has talent. You’re shortchanging them as a team. Jokic isn’t a defensive anchor and somehow Denver won how many games? He averaged 7 assists and I guess he willed those baskets in the hoop? We going to act like Jamal Murray wasn’t a stud coming out of college and hasn’t shown that this season? He didn’t have back to back 30 games?

What does Jokic do better than Anthony Davis? Score? No. Rebound? No. Defend? No. Pass? Yes. That’s it. Shits hilarious how all of a sudden AD isn’t better. But again it’s ISH.



So why does Jokic have a better RPM in spite of playing over 600 more minutes?

Put AD in Jokic's place Denver might not even be in the playoffs. Jokic played 24 more games.

Murray has a PER of 16.11, RPM of 1.04 and a TS of 53.8%. *yawn*

[Kblaze8855]

It feels like a stupid question till you look at a list. Seems he should be in there easily....but you could put him anywhere from like....5 to 12 I think.

[Kblaze8855]

So why does Jokic have a better RPM in spite of playing over 600 more minutes?

Thats one of those questions im not sure what the expected response is.

Why someone has a better advanced stat rating than someone else is a question that depends entirely on both people accepting it as something that matters.

I dont think you have that at the moment.

[tontoz]

Thats one of those questions im not sure what the expected response is.

Why someone has a better advanced stat rating than someone else is a question that depends entirely on both people accepting it as something that matters.

I dont think you have that at the moment.

Does box +/- matters? Jokic is ranked higher than both Davis and Embid.

Do winshares matter? Jokic is ranked higher than Davis and Embid.

Does VORP matter? Jokic is ranked higher than Davis and Embid.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_leaders.html

So the real questions are, do availability and advanced stats matter?

[iamgine]

Does box +/- matters? Jokic is ranked higher than both Davis and Embid.

Do winshares matter? Jokic is ranked higher than Davis and Embid.

Does VORP matter? Jokic is ranked higher than Davis and Embid.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2019_leaders.html

So the real questions are, do availability and advanced stats matter?
Depends...Montrezl Harrell ranked the same as Embiid according to those advanced stats.

[tontoz]

Depends...Montrezl Harrell ranked the same as Embiid according to those advanced stats.


Harrell ranked 20th in +/- and winshares, didn't make the top 20 in VORP. He had a huge year and is a big reason the Clippers were able to make the playoffs and take two games for GS.

Harrell played only 26 minutes per game off the bench so fatigue wasn't as much of an issue for him as it would be for starters. I think that he probably takes the regular season a lot more seriously than many stars do. Some stars are pacing themselves during the regular season.

Kawhi and Durant for example seems like they were coasting during the regular season, relative to what they are doing in the playoffs.

I think it is noteworthy that Embid didn't make the top 20 in any of those stats.

[iamgine]

Harrell ranked 20th in +/- and winshares, didn't make the top 20 in VORP. He had a huge year and is a big reason the Clippers were able to make the playoffs and take two games for GS.

Harrell played only 26 minutes per game off the bench so fatigue wasn't as much of an issue for him as it would be for starters. I think that he probably takes the regular season a lot more seriously than many stars do. Some stars are pacing themselves during the regular season.

Kawhi and Durant for example seems like they were coasting during the regular season, relative to what they are doing in the playoffs.

I think it is noteworthy that Embid didn't make the top 20 in any of those stats.

And your question was...do those advanced stats matter? Jimmy Butler was ranked way way lower on those stats than Harrell. So did D'angelo Russell. On that basis, I don't think we can conclude it matters.

[tontoz]

And your question was...do those advanced stats matter? Jimmy Butler was ranked way way lower on those stats than Harrell. So did D'angelo Russell. On that basis, I don't think we can conclude it matters.


That is idiotic. You are comparing a guy playing limited minutes off the bench to starters. Apples to oranges. Harrell is the only bench player on the lists, so you latch onto him.

Harrell could play all out all the time because he didn't play big minutes.

Also this was an off year for Butler, his lowest scoring year since he averaged 13 in his 3rd season.

Lets look at the top 20 in each stat.

Box +/-
1. James Harden

[tpols]

And your question was...do those advanced stats matter? Jimmy Butler was ranked way way lower on those stats than Harrell. So did D'angelo Russell. On that basis, I don't think we can conclude it matters.


Harell came off the bench and didn't play big minutes... That right there would explain it you can't compare bench minutes to starter minutes 1 for 1.

[iamgine]

[QUOTE=tontoz]That is idiotic. You are comparing a guy playing limited minutes off the bench to starters. Apples to oranges. Harrell is the only bench player on the lists, so you latch onto him.

Harrell could play all out all the time because he didn't play big minutes.

Also this was an off year for Butler, his lowest scoring year since he averaged 13 in his 3rd season.

Lets look at the top 20 in each stat.

Box +/-
1. James Harden

[tontoz]

Of course they are represented, but what you asked was using it for comparing players. If you want starter, can we really say Gobert is a top 2-5 player? KAT is a top 7 player?


No one stat is going to give a complete picture of a player. If you just look at rebounding but ignore scoring or defense then obviously you won't get a complete picture of a player's value. That doesn't mean rebounding doesn't matter.

Kat averaged 24/12 with a TS of 62%. He had a huge year which doesn't get much credit because the team around him is weak. They got rid of Butler during the season. Minny fans seem to hate Wiggins.

Gobert averaged 16/13 with a TS of 68%. He is a DPOY candidate every year and won it last year. Again his season gets discounted because Utah gets so little attention.

If the advanced stats don't matter, then what stats actually do matter?

[iamgine]

No one stat is going to give a complete picture of a player. If you just look at rebounding but ignore scoring or defense then obviously you won't get a complete picture of a player's value. That doesn't mean rebounding doesn't matter.

Kat averaged 24/12 with a TS of 62%. He had a huge year which doesn't get much credit because the team around him is weak. They got rid of Butler during the season. Minny fans seem to hate Wiggins.

Gobert averaged 16/13 with a TS of 68%. He is a DPOY candidate every year and won it last year. Again his season gets discounted because Utah gets so little attention.

If the advanced stats don't matter, then what stats actually do matter?
Advanced stat matters, just not in the way you used them. It's not very useful in that context.

[tontoz]

Advanced stat matters, just not in the way you used them. It's not very useful in that context.


So showing that one player outranks another player in not just one but several advanced stats isn't useful when comparing players?

OK

I think the real story is that advanced stats don't like Embiid. I think his usage rate is too high for a big who isnt a good playmaker.


Usage Pct
1. James Harden

[GOBB]

Advanced stats now? Sheesh. Read my last reply in here for where I stand.

[iamgine]

So showing that one player outranks another player in not just one but several advanced stats isn't useful when comparing players?


Well, as shown by Gobert being top 2-5 player and KAT being top 7 player.

[tontoz]

Well, as shown by Gobert being top 2-5 player and KAT being top 7 player.


So what? If they were in LA or NY people would be going nuts over them. Advanced stats don't care where a player plays.

[tontoz]

Advanced stats now? Sheesh. Read my last reply in here for where I stand.


We know where you stand. Missing games doesn't matter and advanced stats don't matter. Only the eye test matters.

[iamgine]

So what? If they were in LA or NY people would be going nuts over them. Advanced stats don't care where a player plays.
:biggums:

[tontoz]

When i look at those advanced stats one thing that stands out to me is the number of bigs is higher than i would have expected on the +/- and winshares. VORP seems more guard friendly.

[GOBB]

We know where you stand. Missing games doesn't matter and advanced stats don't matter. Only the eye test matters.

Where does Rudy Gobert rank then because I don’t think many here have him top 15. Yet advanced stats suggest he is. Towns is not even considered as a top 10 player. Yet advanced stats suggest he is. Guess I’m too old school where eye test and basic stats tend to outweigh advanced. I really don’t think I’ve argued or experienced any arguments where someone pulled out VORP on me.

[tontoz]

Where does Rudy Gobert rank then because I don’t think many here have him top 15. Yet advanced stats suggest he is. Towns is not even considered as a top 10 player. Yet advanced stats suggest he is. Guess I’m too old school where eye test and basic stats tend to outweigh advanced. I really don’t think I’ve argued or experienced any arguments where someone pulled out VORP on me.


The only reason I quoted all those advanced stats is because KBlaze questioned the value of RPM.

You can't even acknowledge that missing games decreases a players value. Replace Jokic with Embiid or Davis and Denver doesn't make the playoffs.

Philly has 4, maybe 5 players better than Murray but Denver won more games with the 4th youngest team in the NBA.

Not every advanced stat will value players the same way. But when you look at all of them a clear picture emerges.

If Towns was putting up 24/12 with a 62% TS in NY don't you think he would be ranked a lot higher on here?

[GOBB]

The only reason I quoted all those advanced stats is because KBlaze questioned the value of RPM.

You can't even acknowledge that missing games decreases a players value. Replace Jokic with Embiid or Davis and Denver doesn't make the playoffs.

Philly has 4, maybe 5 players better than Murray but Denver won more games with the 4th youngest team in the NBA.

Not every advanced stat will value players the same way. But when you look at all of them a clear picture emerges.

If Towns was putting up 24/12 with a 62% TS in NY don't you think he would be ranked a lot higher on here?

That

[NuggetsFan]

Denver absolutely isn't a playoff team without Jokic this season. Which is why he's underrated. All the injuries we had? We might have lost the most games to injuries. At one point we were down 3 starters.

Not to mention our entire offense is built around Jokic in a way that's never really been seen before. Embiid/Davis could make Denver's defense better, and even score as much, but we play team basketball we tons of movement and Jokic makes everyone's better.

Should check out Denver's numbers/individual players with and without Jokic on the floor.

Murray's breaking out and IMO he has the potential to be a star guard but he had consistently issues all season long. Millsap missed games, Harris missed games and was rusty alot of the time he played. Barton missed games and still isn't 100% even now.

[tontoz]

That’s absolutely ridiculous to say. Embiid has carried the Sixers to the playoffs and him not playing is noticeable especially defensively. To think he couldn’t carry the Nuggets to the playoffs is laughable. Denver is a playoff team with either Davis or Jokic.

Portland has won more games than the Sixers.

And no if Towns was doing that in NY he wouldn’t be ranked high on here. It would be a bunch of empty stats threads made. If towns did those stats and won then he would be ranked higher. Much like Jokic is now.

:oldlol:

How is Denver winning games with Embiid glued to the bench? You think Murray is going to carry them to wins?

Get real. He played 63 games. Jokic played 80. How many games would Denver win during those 17 games Embiid misses?

Davis played only 56. Denver would have absolutely no chance of making the playoffs with Davis.

[GOBB]

:oldlol:

How is Denver winning games with Embiid glued to the bench? You think Murray is going to carry them to wins?

Get real. He played 63 games. Jokic played 80. How many games would Denver win during those 17 games Embiid misses?

Davis played only 56. Denver would have absolutely no chance of making the playoffs with Davis.

You can take this argument and apply it to Rudy Gobert and Utah. He played 80 games as well. Rudy in Denver and they are playoffs. Embiid/Davis in Denver and they are not. Conclusion is what? You want to isolate this season and games played? That’s fine. It doesn’t change the impact both Embiid and Davis have on their respective teams which is why they suffer when they aren’t on the floor. Clearly health is always a concern for any player. But I’m pretty sure Denver GM if they didn’t have Jokic would feel the same about Embiid and Davis as you do as far as them not being good enough to take them to the playoffs. Why else is Davis a heavily sought player in the league? Why else is Davis value high as far as trades are concerned?

So yeah Davis 56 games this season Denver doesn’t make playoffs. What point that proves I’m not sure. Doesn’t change a thing in terms of Davis being considered better as Jokic. It just something you want to use in why you have him higher. Which is fine. Jokic is just 3rd on my list no matter how you slice it.

[Kblaze8855]

Anthony Davis wasnt really hurt much this year. They shut him down at the end and he had a couple of those modern bullshit back to back night load management DNPs. That little stretch he was out before the ASG started 3 days before the trade request leak. I suspect it wasnt by chance. He was "out" for a couple weeks during a trade demand frenzy with a sprained finger. I think we all know what happened there. 12 of his missed games were after they decided to limit his play/shut him down to end the year and almost all the rest were during the trade talks. Think its by chance a sprained finger keeps a guy out while hes being bashed non step for 2 weeks of trade speculation after his demand leaks?

Anyway....


I think the best players in the NBA are fairly represented by these stats.

The best players in the NBA are gonna be on any list of the things we track where the positive ones are added up with points removed for losing and negative stats.

Theres no way to combine all the numbers we have and leave out the best players because the numbers are designed to track the good things that happen. Doesnt mean they tell you who plays basketball the best among the good players.

I understand that you place great importance in them but you have to know when speaking to people who dont you just end up fighting about the validity of the number and not really talking ball at all.

That something youre looking forward to doing again?

I dont know that we have much more ground to cover on the issue.

[tontoz]

Conclusion is what? You want to isolate this season and games played? That’s fine.

This season? Davis and Embiid have been in the league a combined 12 seasons. Davis has missed 108 games, Embid 252, unless I counted wrong. Availability is part of a players value. Not arguable.


What point that proves I’m not sure. Doesn’t change a thing in terms of Davis being considered better as Jokic. It just something you want to use in why you have him higher. Which is fine. Jokic is just 3rd on my list no matter how you slice it.

So the eye test means more than advanced stats and actually playing in games.

OK

When you see so many bigs in the top 20 of these advanced stats, with Embiid only showing up once at 19, that should tell you something.

[Kblaze8855]

When you see so many bigs in the top 20 of these advanced stats, with Embiid only showing up once at 19, that should tell you something.


Id imagine it tells him the same thing it would tell every team in the NBA.....all of them with advanced stats people....

And that is that the advanced stats are wrong.

Every single team would see them....then conclude that Embiid is elite anyway and try to get him to take their 200 million dollars.

[NuggetsFan]

talking ball at all.


I've been thinking about this lately and curious to know your opinion but is Jokic the first legit point C of all-time? Not just from a passing stand point but his role, touches, ability combined.

How many C's have handled the ball in the P&R? Bring the ball up the court at times. He's out here throwing no look passes, passing between guys legs, hitting cutters, outlet passes, passing out of the pick and roll. He even occasionally will drive and kick. There's not a pass a PG makes, that Jokic can't.

We've obviously seen big men who are amazing passers. Teams have built offense's around it. C-Webb, Divac, list could go on. Even to a degree players like Blake/Cousins and Gasol on the Grizzles have handled playmaking duties.n offense around that. Wilt is the only guy to average more assists I believe but from my understanding it was more because he was such a dominant scorer that from all the attention he got he'd pass out it out of the post/hit cutters. He at no point was bringing the ball up or running the same kinda sets that Jokic would be. I know Sabonis would match Jokic in terms of the the skilled/flashy passes for alot of people but it's not like he was playing PG. I don't know enough about his career oversea's but in the NBA anyways.

There was a play during the regular season where Plumlee/Jokic ran the pick and roll and Jokic hit him for an alley oop. It was wild watching two C's run that kinda play.

[Kblaze8855]

Alvin Adams and before him Maurice Stokes did some point center but not the way Jokic does because their sets were so different. Far as someone center sized who can play that way?

Lamar Odom I suppose. Odom was 6'10'' 240 when he filled out and he had better handles and could make all the passes. A rookie Odom dropped into today could as easily become a Jokic style 5 as a Simmons style point.

There arent many though.

[GOBB]

Id imagine it tells him the same thing it would tell every team in the NBA.....all of them with advanced stats people....

And that is that the advanced stats are wrong.

Every single team would see them....then conclude that Embiid is elite anyway and try to get him to take their 200 million dollars.

Exactly. Same with Anthony Davis.

[tontoz]

LMAO front offices are notorious for giving out bad contracts. The wizards have been run by an incompetent buffoon for 14 years, and this is the third team he has run.

Is Westbrook worth his contact? Wall wasn't worth his deal even before he got hurt. I could go on all day but what's the point?

When someone dismisses all advanced stats because they don't match up with their opinions that tells me all I need to know.

[Kblaze8855]

The people touting advanced stats dismiss advances stats. All they fall back on to ignore the massive inexcusable mistakes is "No dont use it like that." and "You cant compare ___ to ____" when ____ and ____ are on the same list being ranked by the same metric. Theres always a reason why the system itself isnt just giving wrong results. Be it Hakeem not leading his own team in winshares in the playoffs while leading a team to a title or the dozens of insane PER rankings or...*scrolls up a bit* ....

Leonard being behind Vucevic in all 3 of the numbers listed. We hear about exceptions like its one or two....when its hundreds you simply have to ignore to stay within the confines of common sense.

When I see an advanced stat that doesnt give me "You cant be serious...." results the very instant I look at its rankings ill be shocked.

Give me an advanced stat that doesnt come with a "Well dont count him.....or him...or him....or him...or them....NO...dont compare number 18 to number...16....throw that guy out too....yea I know this one is also insane but on the whole..." list of exceptions like the side effects at the end of a new pill commercial and ill consider it.

I just feel like if you cant fin a way for your results to not tell me David Lee is ahead of Kobe who is leading his team to a title I need you to go back to the drawing board.

[GOBB]

LMAO front offices are notorious for giving out bad contracts. The wizards have been run by an incompetent buffoon for 14 years, and this is the third team he has run.

Is Westbrook worth his contact? Wall wasn't worth his deal even before he got hurt. I could go on all day but what's the point?

When someone dismisses all advanced stats because they don't match up with their opinions that tells me all I need to know.

What front offices are using advanced stats? When teams are asked who are the top players where are the advanced stats replies at? You

[Kblaze8855]

All the tams have advanced stats people....like they have old school scouts. The GMs still want the same players people with common sense see are great.

The advanced stats probably factor in more with which role players to favor.

Any stories of teams turning down stars who wish to be there because the advanced numbers suggest they are a bad fit?

Melo? Anyone calling him a star now?

Think it happens in 2010?

[GOBB]

The people touting advanced stats dismiss advances stats. All they fall back on to ignore the massive inexcusable mistakes is "No dont use it like that." and "You cant compare ___ to ____" when ____ and ____ are on the same list being ranked by the same metric. Theres always a reason why the system itself isnt just giving wrong results. Be it Hakeem not leading his own team in winshares in the playoffs while leading a team to a title or the dozens of insane PER rankings or...*scrolls up a bit* ....

Leonard being behind Vucevic in all 3 of the numbers listed. We hear about exceptions like its one or two....when its hundreds you simply have to ignore to stay within the confines of common sense.

When I see an advanced stat that doesnt give me "You cant be serious...." results the very instant I look at its rankings ill be shocked.

Give me an advanced stat that doesnt come with a "Well dont count him.....or him...or him....or him...or them....NO...dont compare number 18 to number...16....throw that guy out too....yea I know this one is also insane but on the whole..." list of exceptions like the side effects at the end of a new pill commercial and ill consider it.

I just feel like if you cant fin a way for your results to not tell me David Lee is ahead of Kobe who is leading his team to a title I need you to go back to the drawing board.

Bingo

[tpols]

The people touting advanced stats dismiss advances stats. All they fall back on to ignore the massive inexcusable mistakes is "No dont use it like that." and "You cant compare ___ to ____" when ____ and ____ are on the same list being ranked by the same metric. Theres always a reason why the system itself isnt just giving wrong results. Be it Hakeem not leading his own team in winshares in the playoffs while leading a team to a title or the dozens of insane PER rankings or...*scrolls up a bit* ....

Leonard being behind Vucevic in all 3 of the numbers listed. We hear about exceptions like its one or two....when its hundreds you simply have to ignore to stay within the confines of common sense.

When I see an advanced stat that doesnt give me "You cant be serious...." results the very instant I look at its rankings ill be shocked.

Give me an advanced stat that doesnt come with a "Well dont count him.....or him...or him....or him...or them....NO...dont compare number 18 to number...16....throw that guy out too....yea I know this one is also insane but on the whole..." list of exceptions like the side effects at the end of a new pill commercial and ill consider it.

I just feel like if you cant fin a way for your results to not tell me David Lee is ahead of Kobe who is leading his team to a title I need you to go back to the drawing board.


You can do that for literally any number... advanced or simple.

Thats why the eye test and contextual explanations are paramount.

We know jokic is on some larry bird shit right now from all available information.

[Kblaze8855]

You can do that for literally any number... advanced or simple.

Thats entirely the point.

It all comes down to needing to know something about the people in question.....

TS is the best example of that to me. You see guys say so and so has a TS of this which shows hes a better shooter than ____. Someone asks "Well why is*insert terrible shooter* so high on the list?" with the obvious answer being all he does is dunk and hes not a terrible FT shooter. But you need to go find that out if you dont already know the game.

If I need to go see the numbers that make TS% to know if the person in question is actually a good shooter...why not just give me those numbers to begin with? Why make me do the extra step?

So often these numbers require so much context you might as well post only the context and leave the metric out of it.

[tpols]

Thats entirely the point.

It all comes down to needing to know something about the people in question.....

TS is the best example of that to me. You see guys say so and so has a TS of this which shows hes a better shooter than ____. Someone asks "Well why is*insert terrible shooter* so high on the list?" with the obvious answer being all he does is dunk and hes not a terrible FT shooter. But you need to go find that out if you dont already know the game.

If I need to go see the numbers that make TS% to know if the person in question is actually a good shooter...why not just give me those numbers to begin with? Why make me do the extra step?

So often these numbers require so much context you might as well post only the context and leave the metric out of it.


TS is used to measure scoring efficiency... we could give you the full breakdown but ultimately it would be just as much, if not more data to sift through. If you want to talk numbers being irrelevant then they all are because theres anomalies everywhere.

but i agree... too much of it all is circumstantial and you can only evaluate things in life by context to assess true value. thats why i rarely drop numbers and basically only talk game.

[tontoz]

Pretty much any stat will have some bias. That doesn't mean it is wrong.

Rebounding is clearly biased towards bigs. They have a better chance to get rebounds than small guards running around the perimeter.

Does that mean the stat is "wrong" because it doesn't treat all positions equally? No

A rebound gives teams possession which is obviously very important. You can't score without the ball. I think this is why some advanced stats are biased towards bigs.

Vuc averages over twice as many rebounds per 36 minutes as kawhi which explains a higher rating in some advanced stats. That doesn't mean they are wrong. It just means that position should be taken into account.

When you are comparing players at the same position they can be taken more at face value.

As far as PER goes the flaw is that you can increase your rating by shooting, even if you shoot like crap. I forget what the cuttoff percentage was but i remember it seemed very low.

[eliteballer]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D55KcRdVUAAOGL6.jpg:large

[Kblaze8855]

What so often makes them "wrong" isnt that positions have a better shot at this number or that one...is that a human has to decide how to value them across the entire board with no context. Deciding if some random rebound is more valuable than a random assist with no knowledge of what led to either is just....not gonna get you to accurate results.

Ive read someone explain away the reason every stat gives you a stack of totally laughable results. Be it PER, win shares, plus/minus or whatever. Whoever is pushing it always has to contend with "You know ____ is waaaaaaaaaaaay better than ____ right?" and they always do know....but tell you to just ignore it for this reason or that.

If the answer is "Yea but just ignore that one...and that...and those" I feel like progress is needed to get me an advanced stat I can value.

Im fine that you do. I dont know what else to say about it. IVe heard "I know Gary Payton isnt worse than 100 people" too many times.

Maybe when one of these things figures out defense....

You would think defensive rating or defensive plus minus or some of them would have Leonard as elite this year but....no. PER did get him to #7 but then KAT is #4 and you just....

I dont know.

These numbers make a lot more sense till you actually read the rankings.

Too much needs to be factored in.

[tontoz]

Drtg is a garbage stat when used for individuals. It is a team stat. When you try to break it down for individuals it becomes a mess. I dismissed it a long time ago.

+/- is useful as long as the sample is large. It can give some bizarre results in small samples.

Also you have to remember that young players/teams typically take the regular season much more seriously than established stars/teams because they are trying to prove themselves.


LeBron/KD and other top players frequently coast during the regular season, and that can show up in the stats.

[GOBB]

At the end of the day who gives a f*ck. Jokic is top 3 without a doubt at this point. Arguably the best big. I don

[FultzNationRISE]

Probably. Yea.