KD would be the 2nd best perimeter player in the 90's

[StrongLurk]

MJ didn't go up against anyone as good as KD on the perimeter in the 90's. KD is an elite scorer from all areas and would not be stopped by defenses in the 90's either. He's shot like 55% from midrange over the last 3 playoffs just to give a small sample.

MJ and KD would be a great battle.

[red1]

kd is a freak of course he would be.

[FKAri]

Hand checking hurts his game. He'd be a bit less "unstoppable" than he is now. He'd still be the 2nd best though I think.

[TheMan]

MJ didn't go up against anyone as good as KD on the perimeter in the 90's. KD is an elite scorer from all areas and would not be stopped by defenses in the 90's either. He's shot like 55% from midrange over the last 3 playoffs just to give a small sample.

MJ and KD would be a great battle.
Depends on what version of Jordan you're talking about, second threepeat MJ where he clearly lost a step? Yeah, that would be a battle to behold...

Late 80s first threepeat Jordan? Lol, Durant just doesn't have the foot speed, lateral movement and athleticism to keep Jordan in front of him. That MJ would massacre KD.

[StrongLurk]

Depends on what version of Jordan you're talking about, second threepeat MJ where he clearly lost a step? Yeah, that would be a battle to behold...

Late 80s first threepeat Jordan? Lol, Durant just doesn't have the foot speed, lateral movement and athleticism to keep Jordan in front of him. That MJ would massacre KD.

Talking 90's only, which includes first 3-peat Jordan. I agree that no one can match 1st 3-peat Jordan, but I don't think Jordan himself could stop KD that much either.

[Smoke117]

That's not really saying much. The 90s wasn't exactly known for it's plethora of great perimeter players. This is basically the golden age of SF's like the 2000s was the golden age of SG's. Besides Jordan, Pippen, and Drexler there are basically no other all time greats at the sg or sf in the 90s.

[3ball]

MJ didn't go up against anyone as good as KD on the perimeter in the 90's. KD is an elite scorer from all areas and would not be stopped by defenses in the 90's either. He's shot like 55% from midrange over the last 3 playoffs just to give a small sample.

MJ and KD would be a great battle.
Durant wouldn't be as good because he suffers when the play is physical

The Beverly defense was legal back then, except he'd be guarded by bigger guys - Beverly only got away with that for a couple games because the refs swallowed their whistles

But that kind of defense was the standard back then

You had to be able to bang inside to be elite back then... Ben Simmons would be a boss back then, tbh.. not completely dominant because he can't shoot, but still very good

[SouBeachTalents]

Is this a thread that really had to be made? Almost all of the top players of the 90's besides Jordan were bigs

Malone
Barkley
Ewing
Robinson
Hakeem
Shaq

I don't think anyone's gonna dispute Durant would be better than Pippen or Drexler

[Naero]

The '90s perimeter-oriented players get vastly underrated simply because the league wasn't as viable for them back then. They didn't score as gaudily as modern wings, but that was more attributable to the defensively permissive rulesets

[superduper]

[QUOTE=Naero]The '90s perimeter-oriented players get vastly underrated simply because the league wasn't as viable for them back then. They didn't score as gaudily as modern wings, but that was more attributable to the defensively permissive rulesets

[NBAGOAT]

Great post. Imagine being born into this era of basketball where perimeter defense is literally not allowed anymore and then not understanding that you simply cannot just compare stats to players from past eras. The games are entirely different. The fact that the youth can't comprehend this is alarming.

on the other hand imagine how ridiculous it would sound to say this about kobe in 06. Yea he scored 35 but handchecking just got banned and guys are feasting at the foul line so we dont know if kobe would be better than clyde or pippen. No it's obvious he's better even if stats cant be taken at face value. It is just as obvious with KD.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah...

Don't know if he's better or worse. More physicality. Packed paint etc. That wingspan though...

Dropping dude in that era as is, he'd just shoot over people. Would take defenses time to adjust to a phenom like Durant.

[superduper]

on the other hand imagine how ridiculous it would sound to say this about kobe in 06. Yea he scored 35 but handchecking just got banned and guys are feasting at the foul line so we dont know if kobe would be better than clyde or pippen. No it's obvious he's better even if stats cant be taken at face value. It is just as obvious with KD.

I'm not saying anything against KD in my post. Clearly he would be the 2nd best perimeter player.

[Smoke117]

[QUOTE=Naero]The '90s perimeter-oriented players get vastly underrated simply because the league wasn't as viable for them back then. They didn't score as gaudily as modern wings, but that was more attributable to the defensively permissive rulesets

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

That's not really saying much. The 90s wasn't exactly known for it's plethora of great perimeter players. This is basically the golden age of SF's like the 2000s was the golden age of SG's. Besides Jordan, Pippen, and Drexler there are basically no other all time greats at the sg or sf in the 90s.

Pip isnt an ATG. Reggie is better

90s Grant>>>Pip also

had that boi looking foolish too when they matched up like Penny did

[MiseryCityTexas]

That's not really saying much. The 90s wasn't exactly known for it's plethora of great perimeter players. This is basically the golden age of SF's like the 2000s was the golden age of SG's. Besides Jordan, Pippen, and Drexler there are basically no other all time greats at the sg or sf in the 90s.

Prime Grant Hill was prime Lebron James before Lebron's existence.
Prime Grant Hill put up better numbers against prime Scottie Pippen whenever they faced each other in one on one matchups. Grant Hill was easily the best small forward in the NBA during the mid to late 90s. or second best right after mid 90s Pippen. Grant Hill was that good.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Late 90s era Grant Hill was better than current Lakers era Lebron.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Grant Hill body slammed Alonzo Mourning (who was a much bigger player than Grant Hill, and then dunked on him right afterwards.) Grant Hill was pretty damned strong for a player of his height and size.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Fans who grew up on early 2000s NBA basketball would be on Grant Hill's nuts today if it weren't for Grant Hill suffering that Superstar career ending foot injury in the very early 2000s. T-mac and Grant Hill woulda at least had one or two rings if it weren't for the Grant Hill injury.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Prime Grant Hill was prime Lebron James before Lebron's existence.
Prime Grant Hill put up better numbers against prime Scottie Pippen whenever they faced each other in one on one matchups. Grant Hill was easily the best small forward in the NBA during the mid to late 90s. or second best right after mid 90s Pippen. Grant Hill was that good.

yup as i said. Hes a Pip stan tho u wont convince him:oldlol:

[LeCola]

He would be great. Imagine him in an era zone defence is illegal, stars mostly play isolation.

[3ball]

He would be great. Imagine him in an era zone defence is illegal, stars mostly play isolation.
Zone is illegal today inside the paint

Infact, defenders in the paint must stay within"armslength" of an offensive player (hug their man at all times or vacate the paint) - being forced to hug your man is the exact opposite of a zone

That's partly why the paint is wide open today, along with the 3-point shooting drawing defenders out

Overall, it's an easy scoring format designed specifically for perimeter players to thrive - all perimter players would face a much tougher format in prior eras and do worse

[MiseryCityTexas]

yup as i said. Hes a Pip stan tho u wont convince him:oldlol:

Scottie Pippen is easily 90s top 5 alltime for one on one defense, yet Scottie couldn't guard Grant Hill for shit. Grant Hill used to hit Scottie Pippen with that crossover dribble. Grant Hill had one of the most underrated crossover dribble moves in NBA history. Hill used to shit on Clyde Drexler too using that crossover dribble. Grant Hill was Lebron of the 90s hands down. Hill and Durant would be top 2 NBA sf if their eras collide.

[LeCola]

Zone is illegal today inside the paint

Infact, defenders in the paint must stay within"armslength" of an offensive player (hug their man at all times or vacate the paint) - being forced to hug your man is the exact opposite of a zone

That's partly why the paint is wide open today, along with the 3-point shooting drawing defenders out

Overall, it's an easy scoring format designed specifically for perimeter players to thrive - all perimter players would face a much tougher format in prior eras and do worse

Now, it is easier for perimeter players, I agree that. However, it is for all perimeter players.

All of them would be affected that but Durant would probably less. Because his game is based on isolation with using his heigh advantage.

So, he would probably a very valuable player in 90's.

[3ball]

Now, it is easier for perimeter players, I agree that. However, it is for all perimeter players.

All of them would be affected that but Durant would probably less. Because his game is based on isolation with using his heigh advantage.

So, he would probably a very valuable player in 90's.


He's a valuable player now.. :confusedshrug:

But he'd have it tougher back then because it was tougher on perimeter players than today's hands-off, spaced-out format designed for ball-handlers

Beverly defense was legal and standard, plus he wouldn't have shooters and modern strategy to space the floor

[LAmbruh]

christ, imagine if KD got illegal defense enforced spacing from then



https://i.postimg.cc/8PwzJdVY/illegal2.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/vHGmZqC9/illegal3.png (https://postimages.org/)

[MiseryCityTexas]

I remember when Grant Hill crossed over Scottie Pippen, then blew right past him, and dunked right over Dennis Rodman afterwards. The NBA loves hiding this highlight from Youtube.

[MiseryCityTexas]

christ, imagine if KD got illegal defense enforced spacing from then



https://i.postimg.cc/8PwzJdVY/illegal2.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/vHGmZqC9/illegal3.png (https://postimages.org/)

Reggie Miller and mid 90s Pistons era Allan Houston were both better players than Klay Thompson.

[LeCola]

He's a valuable player now.. :confusedshrug:

But he'd have it tougher back then because it was tougher on perimeter players than today's hands-off, spaced-out format designed for ball-handlers

Beverly defense was legal and standard, plus he wouldn't have shooters and modern strategy to space the floor

He is valuable now and he would be valuable in 90's too. I did not say anything like "He is not valuable now but he would be valuable in 90's". I just said he would be great in 90's with always playing isolation with less help defences.

Also his stats against Beverley/Clippers in that round:

35.0/5.3/5.3 0.57/.40/.95

[Rico2016]

I hope I wasn't supposed to think this was some bold take? The 90s was riddled with a terribly weak group of guards and small forwards. Part of the reason is because centers and power forwards were considered to be much more valuable during that era because the style of play was considerably different. That's why Michael Jordan was an enigma because for the longest time big men had been the most important centerpiece to most every championship team. And not to pile on a bunch more, but Kevin Durant is also widely known as one of the top five forwards in NBA history. He might even be the second greatest small forward behind LeBron James soon, if not already. I would not label this thread topic as a hot take but rather a water is wet take.

[Rico2016]

christ, imagine if KD got illegal defense enforced spacing from then



https://i.postimg.cc/8PwzJdVY/illegal2.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/vHGmZqC9/illegal3.png (https://postimages.org/)

KD would likely average a solid 35-40 per game.

[jstern]

Zone is illegal today inside the paint

Infact, defenders in the paint must stay within"armslength" of an offensive player (hug their man at all times or vacate the paint) - being forced to hug your man is the exact opposite of a zone

That's partly why the paint is wide open today, along with the 3-point shooting drawing defenders out

Overall, it's an easy scoring format designed specifically for perimeter players to thrive - all perimter players would face a much tougher format in prior eras and do worse

I believe Jordan was against the idea of the NBA bringing the zone BUT it had something to do with having two bigs camping under the rim. Something to that effect. It's been a while since I read it. You CAN'T do that with the defensive 3 seconds rule.

[LeCola]

christ, imagine if KD got illegal defense enforced spacing from then



https://i.postimg.cc/8PwzJdVY/illegal2.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/vHGmZqC9/illegal3.png (https://postimages.org/)

This is why:

-Durant would be great player in 90'
-Lebron, Westbrook or Harden could not have that much assists and triple doubles in 90's
-MJ would have crazy stats like 35/10/10 in 10's

[MiseryCityTexas]

Top NBA small forwards If Durant played in the mid to late 90s.

1. Durant
2. Grant Hill
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Glenn Big Dog Robinson
5. Jamal Mashburn

Hell you can throw Kevin Garnett on this small forward list too because he played a majority of his time at small forward in the mid 90s because he was too skinny to play PF, and Tom Gugliotta was the star starting power foward for the Timberwolves at the time ( and was pretty damned good at playing small forward too just off his height and speed alone).

[MiseryCityTexas]

KD got locked down by PJ freaking Tucker in game 3. Durant would catch hell playing under 90s rules.

[3ball]

He is valuable now and he would be valuable in 90's too. I did not say anything like "He is not valuable now but he would be valuable in 90's". I just said he would be great in 90's with always playing isolation with less help defences.

Also his stats against Beverley/Clippers in that round:

35.0/5.3/5.3 0.57/.40/.95
Less help defenses?

Do you know what the definition of spacing is?... It means that defenders are more spread out.. Help defenders are further from the ball handler than ever before - this is observable fact and the definition of spacing

And durant's stats suffered for a couple games vs Beverly as the refs swallowed their whistles - this made it like the 90's would be - once they started calling it legally under today's rules, he did better...

But the very fact that a 6'1" player shut him down with physical defense speaks volumes about what would happen in previous eras against bigger defenders that are LEGALLY being physical the same way.. Beverly is nearly 1 foot shorter than durant, so that's like Mugsy Bogues shutting down MJ... So ur overrating what durant would do back then.. he'd get best up in those packed paints versus today's wide open paints

[LAmbruh]

KD got locked down by PJ freaking Tucker in game 3. Durant would catch hell playing under 90s rules.
Yeah that shortened 3pt line would really hurt KD LLLOL

Perimeter stars today get hit with 2-3 layers of defense compared to the man on man shit in the 90's. Jordan must have been cunning af to get past the likes of 35yo Hornacek only to be met at the rim by a late rotating 36yo Antoine Carr :oldlol:

[Round Mound]

No Penny Hardaway mention. He was probably the 2nd best combo guard after MJ before his injuries. He was good defensively and had a great post up mid range game.

[3ball]

https://i.postimg.cc/8PwzJdVY/illegal2.png



Except most penetration occurs from the top of the key

Your pic shows the ball-handler on the wing (strongside)

But from the top of the key, today's ball-handler sees a wide open paint because shooters and defensive 3 clears the paint.

So from the top of the key (most penetration), today's ball-handler has it much easier.. that's why it's historical fact that today's game is designed for ball-handlers

Then there's the hand-off defense, freedom-of-movement, cupcake bullshit, cream-puff, garbage non- basketball ballerina shit making the game easier for ball-handlers too
.

[LeCola]

Less help defenses?

Do you know what the definition of spacing is?... It means that defenders are more spread out.. Help defenders are further from the ball handler than ever before - this is observable fact and the definition of spacing

And durant's stats suffered for a couple games vs Beverly as the refs swallowed their whistles - this made it like the 90's would be - once they started calling it legally under today's rules, he did better...

But the very fact that a 6'1" player shut him down with physical defense speaks volumes about what would happen in previous eras against bigger defenders that are LEGALLY being physical the same way.. Beverly is nearly 1 foot shorter than durant, so that's like Mugsy Bogues shutting down MJ... So ur overrating what durant would do back then.. he'd get best up in those packed paints versus today's wide open paints

Ok, you know definition of spacing but do you know how it happens? In this era you need good shooters for it but in 90's you dont need any ability just like in the pic Lambruh posted.

If he goes outside the 3 point line you should go outside the 3 point line, if he goes outside the arena you should follow, if he goes mcDonalds you should go too. Do you know why? Because zone defence was illegal, you should follow him wherever he goes. So there were less help defence in 90's.

[Smoke117]

Prime Grant Hill was prime Lebron James before Lebron's existence.
Prime Grant Hill put up better numbers against prime Scottie Pippen whenever they faced each other in one on one matchups. Grant Hill was easily the best small forward in the NBA during the mid to late 90s. or second best right after mid 90s Pippen. Grant Hill was that good.

Yeah...no. He never had close to the impact LeBron has had over the years. All Hill did during the 90s was lead the Pistons to the lottery. LeBron would have gotten those teams to the playoffs. Frankly, if you think Prime Hill was as good as prime LeBron you should just stop watching basketball as you clearly don't understand what is going on out there on the court.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah...no. He never had close to the impact LeBron has had over the years. All Hill did during the 90s was lead the Pistons to the lottery. LeBron would have gotten those teams to the playoffs. Frankly, if you think Prime Hill was as good as prime LeBron you should just stop watching basketball as you clearly don't understand what is going on out there on the court.
That dude also thinks Terrell Brandon was as good as Curry :oldlol:

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[Smoke117]

That dude also thinks Terrell Brandon was as good as Curry :oldlol:

:biggums: :facepalm :lol :roll:

[TheCorporation]

:biggums: :facepalm :lol :roll:

:lol :coleman:

[3ball]

Ok, you know definition of spacing but do you know how it happens? In this era you need good shooters for it but in 90's you dont need any ability just like in the pic Lambruh posted.

If he goes outside the 3 point line you should go outside the 3 point line, if he goes outside the arena you should follow, if he goes mcDonalds you should go too. Do you know why? Because zone defence was illegal, you should follow him wherever he goes. So there were less help defence in 90's

.
That's inaccurate and the only kind of person that would write that nonsense is a young kid that not only didn't watch back then, but never played themselves

The illegal defense rules allowed defenders to sag off to the edge of the paint just like today's game

This isn't debateable.. It's historical fact and easily verifiable - watch ANY GAME - defenders didn't hug guys at the 3-point line, and your post is sheer ignorance.. seriously, it's really dumb.. defenders routinely sagged off their man all over the court - that's standard man-to-man D






https://i.postimg.cc/8PwzJdVY/illegal2.png



Except most penetration occurs from the top of the key

Your pic shows the ball-handler on the wing (strongside)

But from the top of the key, today's ball-handler sees a wide open paint because shooters and defensive 3 clears the paint.

So from the top of the key (most penetration), today's ball-handler has it much easier.. that's why it's historical fact that today's game is designed for ball-handlers

Then there's the hand-off defense, freedom-of-movement, cupcake bullshit, cream-puff, garbage non- basketball ballerina shit making the game easier for ball-handlers too
.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Yeah...no. He never had close to the impact LeBron has had over the years. All Hill did during the 90s was lead the Pistons to the lottery. LeBron would have gotten those teams to the playoffs. Frankly, if you think Prime Hill was as good as prime LeBron you should just stop watching basketball as you clearly don't understand what is going on out there on the court.

Grant Hill lead his Pistons to the play-offs every year throughout the majority of the mid to late 90s/very early 2000s. He even knocked some teams out of the play-offs.

[Gus Hemmingway]

christ, imagine if KD got illegal defense enforced spacing from then



https://i.postimg.cc/8PwzJdVY/illegal2.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/vHGmZqC9/illegal3.png (https://postimages.org/)
https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohhwNy8ECpVEVdbos/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/idFQbqkllZcplvtkt6/giphy.gif



Notice the paint camper shading LeBron in the post? This is illegal defense in the 80's and 90's. You couldn't double team like that. You had to go at the man, not zoning off and covering space.

Notice how much floor spacing there was in the 90's? That was due to Illegal defense (rule-enforced spacing!). The defenders HAD to clear out and guard their man, EVEN if he had no shooting ability. The rules FORCED them to space the floor.

To get that level of spacing today you need 3PT SHOOTERS (great shooting encouraged todays spacing)

[3ball]

Grant Hill lead his Pistons to the play-offs every year throughout the majority of the mid to late 90s/very early 2000s. He even knocked some teams out of the play-offs.
He did??

Hmmm.. Sounds a lot like lebron from 06-10' before he joined a super-team

And too bad the 90's East didn't allow weak teams to make the Finals like when AI, Kidd, Dwight and lebron all made it in the 00's

[MiseryCityTexas]

Durant's toughest competition during the 90s would be Grant Hill, Scottie Pippen, and Glen Rice. people forget how a nice a perimeter shooter Glen Rice was. Glen Rice was an NBA superstar in the mid 90s. A KD, and prime Hornets era Glen Rice would've been an epic one on one matchup, because both of them are/were epic scorers. People forgot when Glen Rice won allstar game MVP over Jordan, Pippen, Grant Hill, Shaq and Olajuwon.

[MiseryCityTexas]

He did??

Hmmm.. Sounds a lot like lebron from 06-10' before he joined a super-team

And too bad the 90's East didn't allow weak teams to make the Finals like when AI, Kidd, Dwight and lebron all made it in the 00's


Yeah a lot of bad NBA teams from the 90s would easily make the play-offs in today's league.

Like that one Iverson team where he was paired up with Jerry Stackhouse. That team was trash during Jordan's era, but that team would easily make the post season in today's league.

That Bucks team that had Ray Allen, prime Vin Baker, and prime Glenn Robinson didn't even make the play-offs during Jordan's era, but that team would easily make the play-offs in today's watered down league. today's power forwards and centers are so soft and weak today, prime mid 90s Vin Baker would just get easy up and under layups inside.

[Smoke117]

Grant Hill lead his Pistons to the play-offs every year throughout the majority of the mid to late 90s/very early 2000s. He even knocked some teams out of the play-offs.

Actually he didn't.

95 - Pistons miss playoffs

96 - Pistons swept in first round

97 - Pistons lose in first round

98 - Pistons miss playoffs

99 - Pistons lose in first round

2000 - Pistons swept in first round

Which teams did he knock off again?

[Smoke117]

He did??

Hmmm.. Sounds a lot like lebron from 06-10' before he joined a super-team

And too bad the 90's East didn't allow weak teams to make the Finals like when AI, Kidd, Dwight and lebron all made it in the 00's

No, he didn't. :oldlol: He has no idea what is he babbling on about. Reminds me of you.

[3ball]

No, he didn't. :oldlol: He has no idea what is he babbling on about. Reminds me of you.
Point still stands - lebron only made the Finals once with a weak team when everyone else was also doing it (Dwight, AI, Kidd)

But even though a strong team wasn't needed to make it, he teamed up with stars to make it from 11-18' after he couldn't make it in 09/10

And I post so much substance on this board while you post.... Nothing. Ur the board's resident whiny bitch

[Smoke117]

Point still stands - lebron only made the Finals once with a weak team when everyone else was also doing it (Dwight, AI, Kidd)

But even though a strong team wasn't needed to make it, he teamed up with stars to make it from 11-18' after he couldn't make it in 09/10

And I post so much substance on this board while you post.... Nothing. Ur the board's resident whiny bitch

Yes, that's why this is the only board you're not banned on, right? :oldlol:

[MiseryCityTexas]

No, he didn't. :oldlol: He has no idea what is he babbling on about. Reminds me of you.


Grant Hill was still better than Scottie, and was the original Lebron James.

[MiseryCityTexas]

today's era of basketball is so weak. Grant Hill and Allan houston's Pistons would easily dominate today's league.

[MiseryCityTexas]

I thought Grant Hill's Pistons knocked the Miami Heat out of the play-offs, because I remember Grant Hill single handedly dominating the Heat in a home play-off game. My mistake.

[3ball]

Yes, that's why this is the only board you're not banned on, right? :oldlol:
I'm not banned on any boards

I just don't post on the other ones because I can only take so much stupidity.. one board Is enough

You guys are just actors and deniers of the truth I say - I said the 3-pointer was ruining the game back in 2013 when 3ball first started posting... no one was saying it back then, but now the smartest guy on hoops says it all the time (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13698750&postcount=3) and it's generally common knowledge now

But keep denying and acting - it's all you got.. you definitely don't know basketball..

[NBAGOAT]

today's era of basketball is so weak. Grant Hill and Allan houston's Pistons would easily dominate today's league.

paul george and westbrook cant even get out of the first round but now you think a poor man's giannis and poor man's bradley beal with thorpe and dumars is going dominate? The hell. Worse takes than tazorac at this point.

[SouBeachTalents]

paul george and westbrook cant even get out of the first round but now you think a poor man's giannis and poor man's bradley beal with thorpe and dumars is going dominate? The hell. Worse takes than tazorac at this point.
Lol, just read his previous posts :lol Dude has the absolute worst takes on basketball

[3ball]

Yes, that's why this is the only board you're not banned on, right? :oldlol:
I'm not banned on any boards

I just don't post on the other ones because I can only take so much stupidity.. one board Is enough

You guys are just actors and deniers of the truth I say - I said the 3-pointer was ruining the game back in 2013 when 3ball first started posting... no one was saying it back then, but now the smartest guy on hoops says it all the time (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13698750&postcount=3) and it's generally common knowledge now

But keep denying and acting - it's all you got.. you definitely don't know basketball...

[3ball]

paul george and westbrook cant even get out of the first round but now you think a poor man's giannis and poor man's bradley beal with thorpe and dumars is going dominate? The hell. Worse takes than tazorac at this point.
Westbrook is a cancer - Durant and harden couldn't even win with him

[MiseryCityTexas]

Actually he didn't.

95 - Pistons miss playoffs

96 - Pistons swept in first round

97 - Pistons lose in first round

98 - Pistons miss playoffs

99 - Pistons lose in first round

2000 - Pistons swept in first round

Which teams did he knock off again?

Yeah this only proves that Grant Hill played in a much tougher era of basketball. Lebron played in a weak eastern conference and still didn't make the play-offs in his rookie season. Durant missed the play-offs in his first two seasons in the league. Grant Hill had to survive the Jordan Holocaust while lebron steamrolled through a weak ass eastern conference.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Kemba Walker took Jermy Lamb and a bunch of other scrubs to the play-offs. = The eastern conference is as weak as it had ever been.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kemba Walker took Jermy Lamb and a bunch of other scrubs to the play-offs. = The eastern conference is as weak as it had ever been.
:biggums: The East is as strong as it's been in a decade. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

[Smoke117]

Yeah this only proves that Grant Hill played in a much tougher era of basketball. Lebron played in a weak eastern conference and still didn't make the play-offs in his rookie season. Durant missed the play-offs in his first two seasons in the league. Grant Hill had to survive the Jordan Holocaust while lebron steamrolled through a weak ass eastern conference.

The only thing it proves is that you are a liar. lol LeBron was also 18 his rookie season you knucklehead. And what does Jordan have to do with anything when the Pistons never faced the bulls in the playoffs? Hill couldn't even get them out of the first round to even face the Bulls. Just do yourself a favor and shut up already.

[MiseryCityTexas]

:biggums: The East is as strong as it's been in a decade. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about


Brooklyn Nets, Magic, Celtics, Hornets are all trash. All these teams would get washed in the 90s. Take some of the shittiest teams from the 80s or 90s era of basketball, and they would easily compete against today's soft NBA competition in the play-offs. Look at how easy the Bucks are blowing out the Celtics. The NBA is weak as **** now.

[MiseryCityTexas]

The only thing it proves is that you are a liar. lol LeBron was also 18 his rookie season you knucklehead. And what does Jordan have to do with anything when the Pistons never faced the bulls in the playoffs? Hill couldn't even get them out of the first round to even face the Bulls. Just do yourself a favor and shut up already.


Grant Hill played in a much better era of basketball. Lebron's prime years were played against a bunch of eastern conference scrubs.

[FKAri]

Worse takes than tazorac at this point.
Axiomatically impossible :oldlol:

[Smoke117]

Grant Hill played in a much better era of basketball. Lebron's prime years were played against a bunch of eastern conference scrubs.

The late 90s is one of the weakest eras ever, genius. With the 90s stars aging out and expansion the league was at one of it's weakest points ever. It would continue this trend into the early 2000s so stop trying to act like the league was some slaughterhouse while Hill was playing for the Pistons. That's all beside the point that the west was also always much better stronger in the 90s.

[3ball]

The only thing it proves is that you are a liar. lol LeBron was also 18 his rookie season you knucklehead. And what does Jordan have to do with anything when the Pistons never faced the bulls in the playoffs? Hill couldn't even get them out of the first round to even face the Bulls. Just do yourself a favor and shut up already.


Don't be embarrassed by lebron's missed playoffs as a young player because nearly ALL superstars miss the playoffs their first few years, like Durant, Kyrie, Curry, Gianni's, Lebron, etc

But there's never been a conference that had a bunch of weak teams make the Finals like the 00's East.. :confusedshrug:... And they were all blown away in the Finals (AI, Dwight, Lebron, Kidd twice)

But even though a strong team wasn't needed to make the Finals, Lebron stacked his team with stars from 11-18' to ensure Finals runs, after failing to make it in 09/10 with heavily-favored teams

People somehow ignored that he stacked the deck, and were shocked when the West exposed him this year..

he's been overrated, and always underachieved, from 05' when he missed playoffs with an all-star center, to 11-14' when he teamed up with the next best player and lost or was an underdog 3 of 4 years, to 18' when his team did worse against Durant's Warriors than the 19 Clippers

[Smoke117]

Don't be embarrassed by lebron's missed playoffs as a young player because nearly ALL stars miss the playoffs their first few years, like Durant, Kyrie, Curry, Gianni's, Lebron, etc

But there's never been a conference that had a bunch of weak teams make the Finals like the 00's East.. :confusedshrug:... And they were all blown away in the Finals (AI, Dwight, Lebron, Kidd twice)

But even though a strong team wasn't needed to make the Finals, Lebron stacked his team with stars from 11-18' to ensure Finals runs, after failing to make it in 09/10 with heavily-favored teams

People somehow ignored that he stacked the deck, and were shocked when the West exposed him this year..

he's been overrated, and always underachieved, from 05' when he missed playoffs with an all-star center, to 11-14' when he teamed up with the next best player and lost or was an underdog 3 of 4 years, to 18' when his team did worse against Durant's Warriors than the 19 Clippers

That's great. I don't care. I don't obsess about LeBron like you do. I was just responding to what he said. I don't give a shit about him like you do. Sorry.

[NBAGOAT]

Lol, just read his previous posts :lol Dude has the absolute worst takes on basketball

oh i've seen :lol. Again like tazorac, these takes are just puzzling. At least stans have a direction they go in. There's no rhyme or reason to these takes

[3ball]

That's great. I don't care. I don't obsess about LeBron like you do. I was just responding to what he said. I don't give a shit about him like you do. Sorry.
After tracking me down itt and responding to my posts, now you "don't care"

Again, that's why I only post on this board.. one board is enough stupidity

[MiseryCityTexas]

NBA teams from the 90s that didn't make the play-offs that would easily make the play-offs in today's league.

1.Latrell Sprewell and Joe Smith's Warriors
2. JR Rider and KG's Timberwolves
3. mid 90s Jason Kidd's Three J Mavericks.
4, Mighty Mouse's mid 90s Toronto Raptors.

All these teams would easily make the post season in today's shitty league.

[Showtime80']

LOL!!! In discussions like these is were you start to see the lack of knowledge of posters on this site!

Illegal defense was NEVER meant to keep defensive players GLUED to offensive players even if you parked them at half court. It was intended to prohibit an all out REAL COLLEGE ZONE where you can park 5 players in the lane without any repercussions. Today's NBA PSEUDO ZONE with it's 3 second defensive rule discourages real zone defense in much the same way while also prohibiting hand checking and not allowing hard fouls.

Just take a look at this little video kiddies and analyze the REAL DEFENSE you could get away with during the Illegal Defense era:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE&t=212s

Notice the Pistons perimeter defenders basically IGNORING anybody the Bulls put at the 3 point line standing 6 to 8 feet away from them just waiting to collapse on ANYTHING coming down the paint while guys like Bill Laimbeer, John Salley or James Edwards end up playing FREE SAFETY right under the basket after fighting off screens and switches without getting called for ANYTHING!.

Tommy Heinson coined this the "One foot in the paint defense" during the early 80's Celtics-Lakers Finals. Sounds a lot like a real college zone when compared with the modern incarnation which prohibits defenders explicitly to remain in the painted area for more than 3 seconds without an offensive player near them.

Can you imagine the present manufactured rule enhanced era soft stars like Durant, LeBald, Dumbrick and specifically Curry playing in place of Jordan during that time period with NO SPACING, HARD HAND CHECKING and two big man that could literally CLOBBER YOU if you went down the lane without getting called for flagrants!?!? The Bulls wouldn't have gotten within 20 points against the Bad Boy Pistons and Durant or Curry's frail ass!s would be severely affected by the physicality.

Todays supposed "stars" need spacing because they don't have the overall honed skill level, developed fundamentals or overall basketball IQ to deal with the physical nature and tight spaces that defenses threw at the guys in the 80's and early 90's. Guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Olajuwon, Kareem or Barkley were MASTERS of the half inch and prepared themselves at the high school level and college to deal with the onslaught very different from today's merry band of knuckleheads that spent their formative years on AAU all-star teams getting smoke blown up their rear ends not learning a damn thing to then stay a half hearted year of college just wasting time while eyeing the watered down modern NBA where they know they can be by on athleticism and INFERIOR BASKETBALL IQ!

The most damning shot to the modern game is none other than Mr. Russell Westbrick who is one of the DUMBEST and fundamentally flawed players in the history of the NBA but yet thanks to the offensive friendly rule changes and a league that's been dumbed down to 3-pointers/layups he can get by with athleticism to the tune of one MVP, three straight seasons averaging a trouble double while leading his Thunder teams to almost 50 wins in the supposedly tougher conference!

Today's perimeter players would DREAD playing in the 80's and 90's while those guys would SALIVATE at the thought of playing their prime years in the soft, OFFENSIVE FRIENDLY, 3 point chuck and layup fest exhibition that people call the modern NBA. Simple as that.

[NBAGOAT]

LOL!!! In discussions like these is were you start to see the lack of knowledge of posters on this site!

Illegal defense was NEVER meant to keep defensive players GLUED to offensive players even if you parked them at half court. It was intended to prohibit an all out REAL COLLEGE ZONE where you can park 5 players in the lane without any repercussions. Today's NBA PSEUDO ZONE with it's 3 second defensive rule discourages real zone defense in much the same way while also prohibiting hand checking and not allowing hard fouls.

Just take a look at this little video kiddies and analyze the REAL DEFENSE you could get away with during the Illegal Defense era:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE&t=212s

Notice the Pistons perimeter defenders basically IGNORING anybody the Bulls put at the 3 point line standing 6 to 8 feet away from them just waiting to collapse on ANYTHING coming down the paint while guys like Bill Laimbeer, John Salley or James Edwards end up playing FREE SAFETY right under the basket after fighting off screens and switches without getting called for ANYTHING!.

Tommy Heinson coined this the "One foot in the paint defense" during the early 80's Celtics-Lakers Finals. Sounds a lot like a real college zone when compared with the modern incarnation which prohibits defenders explicitly to remain in the painted area for more than 3 seconds without an offensive player near them.

Can you imagine the present manufactured rule enhanced era soft stars like Durant, LeBald, Dumbrick and specifically Curry playing in place of Jordan during that time period with NO SPACING, HARD HAND CHECKING and two big man that could literally CLOBBER YOU if you went down the lane without getting called for flagrants!?!? The Bulls wouldn't have gotten within 20 points against the Bad Boy Pistons and Durant or Curry's frail ass!s would be severely affected by the physicality.

Todays supposed "stars" need spacing because they don't have the overall honed skill level, developed fundamentals or overall basketball IQ to deal with the physical nature and tight spaces that defenses threw at the guys in the 80's and early 90's. Guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Olajuwon, Kareem or Barkley were MASTERS of the half inch and prepared themselves at the high school level and college to deal with the onslaught very different from today's merry band of knuckleheads that spent their formative years on AAU all-star teams getting smoke blown up their rear ends not learning a damn thing to then stay a half hearted year of college just wasting time while eyeing the watered down modern NBA where they know they can be by on athleticism and INFERIOR BASKETBALL IQ!

The most damning shot to the modern game is none other than Mr. Russell Westbrick who is one of the DUMBEST and fundamentally flawed players in the history of the NBA but yet thanks to the offensive friendly rule changes and a league that's been dumbed down to 3-pointers/layups he can get by with athleticism to the tune of one MVP, three straight seasons averaging a trouble double while leading his Thunder teams to almost 50 wins in the supposedly tougher conference!

Today's perimeter players would DREAD playing in the 80's and 90's while those guys would SALIVATE at the thought of playing their prime years in the soft, OFFENSIVE FRIENDLY, 3 point chuck and layup fest exhibition that people call the modern NBA. Simple as that.

nba defenses wouldnt know what to do vs someone who spammed 3's which is like half the guards in the league. It's a stupid hypothetical because they dont have the info we do but you're the one who brought it up. The Knicks had trouble with Reggie, couldnt imagine how often Harden goes to the line vs them with his foul baiting or Curry gets an open look. Patrick Ewing is not coming out 30 ft to guard Curry which means he's burning them and same for any other 90's defense.

[3ball]

nba defenses wouldnt know what to do vs someone who spammed 3's which is like half the guards in the league. It's a stupid hypothetical because they dont have the info we do but you're the one who brought it up. The Knicks had trouble with Reggie, couldnt imagine how often Harden goes to the line vs them with his foul baiting or Curry gets an open look. Patrick Ewing is not coming out 30 ft to guard Curry which means he's burning them and same for any other 90's defense.
Most of that shit wasn't a foul back then because the defense wasn't hands-off like today

And the Knicks beat Reggie mostly and he averaged 16 on 37% vs old MJ & young Kobe in the 98' ecf and 00' Finals

Finally, Steph wouldn't have anyone spreading the floor for him or running high pnr's to kickout to him... He'd have to run off more screens and work like hell to get open like Reggie did

[Showtime80']

Modern teams can spam 3's all they want because guess what, even with 80%+ of the 3 pointers taken in today's dumbed down league being wide open they still only shoot it at a paltry 36%!!! The advantage for modern teams is that the rules are PATHETICALLY IN FAVOR of the offense and EVERY TEAM plays the same way so it basically becomes a 3 point shooting contest where no one makes teams pay for missing 64% of a shot that offenses are taking 30+ times!

Contrast that to the 80's and 90's were rules ENHANCED DEFENSE which FORCED teams to have variety in their offenses instead of the simple minding gimmick they're employing now because of the lack of in between skill of the modern one and done AAU bred knuckleheads. 80's and 90's teams could've spammed 3's but that wouldn't have worked in an era were physicality was allowed and ENCROURAGED ALL OVER THE COURT!

Many of the centers of the 80's and 90's would be smart enough not to guard Curry 30 feet away from the basket (like Shaq did for his entire career when getting caught on switches) while leaving the paint unprotected because they knew they could make them or any other attack to the paint pay if they tried to dribble drive like the video I posted above because you could KNOCK THEIR BLOCK OFF and send a message!

Soft Stephi Curry and James Fraud Harden better hope their making 45%+ of their 3's because the league ALLOWED players to make penetrators pay a heavy price for going down the lane too often.

The modern NBA is nothing more than a rule altered gimmick made to entertain the ever dumber masses by creating artificial stars by putting in offensive friendly rules that allows them to showcase their limited talents by putting a firm safety blanket over them at all times. The league knew that the level of fundamentals and basketball IQ was going down the toilet starting in the mid 90's and they acted accordingly by defanging the defenses and setting up the league for life after Jordan, Bird and Magic.

[NBAGOAT]

Most of that shit wasn't a foul back then because the defense wasn't hands-off like today

And the Knicks beat Reggie mostly and he averaged 16 on 37% vs old MJ & young Kobe in the 98' ecf and 00' Finals

Finally, Steph wouldn't have anyone spreading the floor for him or running high pnr's to kickout to him... He'd have to run off more screens and work like hell to get open like Reggie did

Well first Reggie was older in 00 come on now. he lost to the Knicks because his team wasnt great, his numbers were fantastic(he was 2-2 vs them anyway lol). It doesnt matter if he doesnt have people to kick out to. It's not a thing for a 90's defense to come out 3 feet past the 3 pt line to take away a shot. There be some trapping but there are teams asking slow big men to trap, steph can deal with that and you can always just pass it to the big man pass it back. steph has the conditioning he can run off screens no problem.

On the foul stuff maybe some stuff on drives but the continuation rule was still called. So many fouls on jumpshots for harden like there were for reggie

[FKAri]

Modern teams can spam 3's all they want because guess what, even with 80%+ of the 3 pointers taken in today's dumbed down league being wide open they still only shoot it at a paltry 36%!!! The advantage for modern teams is that the rules are PATHETICALLY IN FAVOR of the offense and EVERY TEAM plays the same way so it basically becomes a 3 point shooting contest where no one makes teams pay for missing 64% of a shot that offenses are taking 30+ times!

Contrast that to the 80's and 90's were rules ENHANCED DEFENSE which FORCED teams to have variety in their offenses instead of the simple minding gimmick they're employing now because of the lack of in between skill of the modern one and done AAU bred knuckleheads. 80's and 90's teams could've spammed 3's but that wouldn't have worked in an era were physicality was allowed and ENCROURAGED ALL OVER THE COURT!

Many of the centers of the 80's and 90's would be smart enough not to guard Curry 30 feet away from the basket (like Shaq did for his entire career when getting caught on switches) while leaving the paint unprotected because they knew they could make them or any other attack to the paint pay if they tried to dribble drive like the video I posted above because you could KNOCK THEIR BLOCK OFF and send a message!

Soft Stephi Curry and James Fraud Harden better hope their making 45%+ of their 3's because the league ALLOWED players to make penetrators pay a heavy price for going down the lane too often.

The modern NBA is nothing more than a rule altered gimmick made to entertain the ever dumber masses by creating artificial stars by putting in offensive friendly rules that allows them to showcase their limited talents by putting a firm safety blanket over them at all times. The league knew that the level of fundamentals and basketball IQ was going down the toilet starting in the mid 90's and they acted accordingly by defanging the defenses and setting up the league for life after Jordan, Bird and Magic.
If a team is allowed to shoot 36% from 3 (especially when taking mostly non-corner 3s) they will win the game. So that is not a paltry amount.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Modern teams can spam 3's all they want because guess what, even with 80%+ of the 3 pointers taken in today's dumbed down league being wide open they still only shoot it at a paltry 36%!!! The advantage for modern teams is that the rules are PATHETICALLY IN FAVOR of the offense and EVERY TEAM plays the same way so it basically becomes a 3 point shooting contest where no one makes teams pay for missing 64% of a shot that offenses are taking 30+ times!

Contrast that to the 80's and 90's were rules ENHANCED DEFENSE which FORCED teams to have variety in their offenses instead of the simple minding gimmick they're employing now because of the lack of in between skill of the modern one and done AAU bred knuckleheads. 80's and 90's teams could've spammed 3's but that wouldn't have worked in an era were physicality was allowed and ENCROURAGED ALL OVER THE COURT!

Many of the centers of the 80's and 90's would be smart enough not to guard Curry 30 feet away from the basket (like Shaq did for his entire career when getting caught on switches) while leaving the paint unprotected because they knew they could make them or any other attack to the paint pay if they tried to dribble drive like the video I posted above because you could KNOCK THEIR BLOCK OFF and send a message!

Soft Stephi Curry and James Fraud Harden better hope their making 45%+ of their 3's because the league ALLOWED players to make penetrators pay a heavy price for going down the lane too often.

The modern NBA is nothing more than a rule altered gimmick made to entertain the ever dumber masses by creating artificial stars by putting in offensive friendly rules that allows them to showcase their limited talents by putting a firm safety blanket over them at all times. The league knew that the level of fundamentals and basketball IQ was going down the toilet starting in the mid 90's and they acted accordingly by defanging the defenses and setting up the league for life after Jordan, Bird and Magic.

Allan Houston would be a rich man's Bradley Beal in todays era.

[NBAGOAT]

Modern teams can spam 3's all they want because guess what, even with 80%+ of the 3 pointers taken in today's dumbed down league being wide open they still only shoot it at a paltry 36%!!! The advantage for modern teams is that the rules are PATHETICALLY IN FAVOR of the offense and EVERY TEAM plays the same way so it basically becomes a 3 point shooting contest where no one makes teams pay for missing 64% of a shot that offenses are taking 30+ times!

Contrast that to the 80's and 90's were rules ENHANCED DEFENSE which FORCED teams to have variety in their offenses instead of the simple minding gimmick they're employing now because of the lack of in between skill of the modern one and done AAU bred knuckleheads. 80's and 90's teams could've spammed 3's but that wouldn't have worked in an era were physicality was allowed and ENCROURAGED ALL OVER THE COURT!

Many of the centers of the 80's and 90's would be smart enough not to guard Curry 30 feet away from the basket (like Shaq did for his entire career when getting caught on switches) while leaving the paint unprotected because they knew they could make them or any other attack to the paint pay if they tried to dribble drive like the video I posted above because you could KNOCK THEIR BLOCK OFF and send a message!

Soft Stephi Curry and James Fraud Harden better hope their making 45%+ of their 3's because the league ALLOWED players to make penetrators pay a heavy price for going down the lane too often.

The modern NBA is nothing more than a rule altered gimmick made to entertain the ever dumber masses by creating artificial stars by putting in offensive friendly rules that allows them to showcase their limited talents by putting a firm safety blanket over them at all times. The league knew that the level of fundamentals and basketball IQ was going down the toilet starting in the mid 90's and they acted accordingly by defanging the defenses and setting up the league for life after Jordan, Bird and Magic.

36% from 3 is 54% from 2, just fantastic offense. No one in history besides mj can make 54% of his shots from the in between area. Maybe a handful of guys in history are that efficient in the post. A scorer doesnt need to shoot 45% from 3 to be a great scorer. How the hell can you not do this basic math.

The thing about those physical drives is it's not like guys werent going to the foul line.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Mark Aguirre would be top 5 small forward easily in today's league.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Dominique Wilkens would be second best small forward in the NBA in todays league behind Durant and ahead of Lebron. 85-86 Dominique Wilkins was a monster.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Dominique Wilkins would be up there with Giannis if he played in today's league.

[StrongLurk]

Showtime80 and 3Ball are the same poster LOL.

[Showtime80']

Little quirks analytic geeks are not seeing in the simple math of 36% of 3's equals 54% of 2's specially if you sent the modern pansies back to older rules.

First of all, the team making only 36% on the majority of their shots is going to create MORE OPPORTUNITIES for the other team than the one shooting 50%+ on the majority of their shots, just basic math. In today's game where EVERYBODY AND THEIR MOTHER is hoisting up 30+ 3's a game those opportunities are being wasted by chucking up another low percentage 3 at the other end. Older teams would not let modern teams off the hook that easy because they had solid powerful HIGH PERCENTAGE INSIDE games that could make these perimeter oriented teams pay a dear price for going small and put more pressure on them by getting them into foul trouble earlier.

The 80's-90's teams had the BODIES AND MENTALITY to close down the paint and make people feel the punishment from hard fouls coming down the lane which could make call baiters like Harden think VERY HARD about going to the paint consistently without the safety blanket of the flagrant foul 2 rule being in place.

Remember also that teams now get the benefit of getting 3 free throws on 3 point fouls which would only be 2 shots in the 80's and 90's and yet still they only generate 23 FT attempts per game, 5/6 less than the inside-out teams of yesteryear. If you put modern teams in that era dock them another 3 to 4 FT attempts per game just for that fact. Again which offense is putting more pressure on the defense, the one generating 29/30 FT's or the one barely getting 21/22?!?!? The foul limit is STILL THE SAME as it was in the 80's-90's.

Let's say for sh!ts and giggles the Warriors or Rockets get off 60 3's against those slow it down grind it out defensive oriented physigical 80's-90's teams and nail 50% (Not happening in a 7 game series IN ANY ERA) that's still only 90 points while getting to the line around just 20 times and making about 15, that's only 105 points.

Where is the other offense coming from for the modern teams when the lanes are going to be clogged for layups and they avoid the mid range like the plague along with having no power inside game against the bruising front courts of the 80's-90's while on top of that having to the deal with the unchecked physicality of those days?!?! GOOD LUCK!

Modern teams are built and designed around the newer softer perimeter friendly rules, teams in the 80s and early 90's on the other hand were designed to be the best teams they could assemble REGARDLESS of rules or eras that's why you saw such a variety of playing philosophies win titles from 1980 to 1999 instead of the monotone uncreative 3 point spamming BORING gimmick you see prevail now a days.

[MiseryCityTexas]

1996 Gary Payton was just as good as current Steph Curry.