How did Bulls have four #1 offenses with no 3rd option and an often weak-scoring 2nd?

[3ball]

.
No offensive talent yet a goat offense?... :biggums:



Only goat teamwork can make that happen... :applause:



But how can there be teamwork/championships with a scoring champion?.... :biggums:... It's never been done... :coleman:



Only if the player is good enough to score optimally can a scoring champion achieve championship teamwork (win a championship in the same year).. :applause:

Only a few have been good enough to do it - Curry did it once in 2016 but Silver robbed him... Kareem and Shaq did it once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00', and of course MJ 6 times (goat)

[SouBeachTalents]

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[TheCorporation]

1-9

[3ball]

1-9
I added Curry to the OP... :confusedshrug:..

I put him in the same class as MJ, Kareem and Shaq - the only guys in history that scored optimally enough to be scoring champion while still achieving championship teamwork (win the championship the same yr)

Curry did it in 16' but Silver robbed him, and then Kyrie's clutch shot killed the Warriors

[SpaceJam2]

1-9

[RRR3]

1-9

[And1AllDay]

1-9

[StrongLurk]

1-9

[3ball]

bump

[RRR3]

1-9

[SamuraiSWISH]

1-9 ...

is LeBron

[3ball]

1-9



Proof that Lebron plays an inferior way:


Top Team ORtg all-time:

1) 87' LAL 115.6
1) 17' GSW 115.6
2) 92' CHI 115.5


26) 17' CLE 113.6



Lebron's offenses (team ORtg) were only elite in a given season (i.e. ranked #3 in the league) - they weren't elite all-time.. there's a difference between #3 in the league and #3 all-time

Lebron's offenses peaked with the #26 all-time ortg in 2017, and #46 in 2016.. (so that's zero top 20 offenses).. Lebron has no other offenses in the top 75

Jordan's team ORtg peaked at #2 all-time in 1992... It was also #6, #12 and #16 all-time (the most top 10 and top 20 offenses ever)

Lebron's attempt to replace inexploitable ball movement with his exploitable CP3-style ball-dominance simply results in inferior offenses and teams than skillsets that can get stats while the ball moves (Bird, MJ, Curry, etc)

Ultimately, it's obvious that MJ's ability to have the #2 all-time offense would give him a better chance against the Warriors #1 offense, than lebron's #26 and 46 offenses did.. (and we know lebron had more offensive help than MJ, so his weaker offenses demonstrate his inferior way of playing and skilkset, i.e. ball-dominance over ball-movement)

[SouBeachTalents]

Proof that Lebron plays an inferior way:


Top Team ORtg all-time:

1) 87' LAL 115.6
1) 17' GSW 115.6
2) 92' CHI 115.5


26) 17' CLE 113.6



Lebron's offenses (team ORtg) were only elite in a given season (i.e. ranked #3 in the league) - they weren't elite all-time.. there's a difference between #3 in the league and #3 all-time

Lebron's offenses peaked with the #26 all-time ortg in 2017, and #46 in 2016.. (so that's zero top 20 offenses).. Lebron has no other offenses in the top 75

Jordan's team ORtg peaked at #2 all-time in 1992... It was also #6, 12 and #16 all-time (the most top 10 and top 20 offenses ever)

Lebron's attempt to replace inexploitable ball movement with his exploitable CP3 style ball-dominance simply results in inferior offenses and teams than skillsets that can get stats while the ball moves (Bird, MJ, Curry, etc)

Ultimately, it's obvious that MJ's ability to have the #2 all-time offense would give him a better chance against the Warriors #1 offense, than lebron's #26-46 offenses did.. (and we know lebron had more offensive help than MJ, so his weaker offenses demonstrate his inferior way of playing and skilkset, i.e. ball-dominance over ball-movement)
1-9

[Akeem34TheDream]

I came here just to write 1-9.

[FKAri]

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2qiu5j8.jpg

[LAmbruh]

1-9

[LAmbruh]

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2qiu5j8.jpg
:lebronamazed: :roll:

[3ball]

how did MJ have far better offenses with less offensive help?

obviously, all that shit I say about Lebron's suboptimal style is true

[PickernRoller]

Teamwork.

Foreign in today's collusionist NBA.

[3ball]

Jordan's triangles achieved much bigger margins above league ORtg than Shaq or Kobe's triangles, despite far less offensive help

So it's clear that Jordan's elite ability in both the "shooter" and "ball-handler" roles (so he fits with everyone and all player types), along with his quick-scoring approach was the most optimal style ever

how else could he win 6 rings as scoring champ, which is something almost no one else did even once? (only Shaq and Kareem did it once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00')... so obviously, mj had the goat offensive style.... BY FAR... only he could score that much while maintaining goat brand of championship teamwork

[dbugz]

Dwyane Wade says LeBron James can never be greater than Michael Jordan (https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/dwyane-wade-says-lebron-james-can-never-be-greater-than-michael-jordan/)

Carmelo Anthony wasn’t comfortable with the question, but he acknowledges there is just one basketball GOAT — Michael Jordan (https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/carmelo-anthony-weighs-in-on-michael-jordan-lebron-james-goat-debate/)

Mike Malone: Killer Mentality Made Michael Jordan Better Than LeBron James (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2887907-michael-malone-killer-mentality-made-michael-jordan-better-than-lebron-james)

Mario Chalmers And JR Smith Say Michael Jordan Is The GOAT (https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/05/05/mario-chalmers-and-jr-smith-say-michael-jordan-is-the-goat/)

Ray Allen still takes Michael Jordan over LeBron James as the greatest of all time (https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-ray-allen-still-takes-michael-jordan-over-lebron-james-as-the-greatest-of-all-time/)

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3ornkdvPFqHxkC5QE8/200_d.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

How did the Bulls have top 10 offenses without MJ in 86' (got worse when MJ came back), 95' (got better with MJ)? In 94' they were top 10 when healthy as well. However, without Pippen in 98' the Bulls were not top 10 as their real Orating slipped from +8 in 97' to +1 in 98' sans Pippen (rebounded to +6 with Pippen).

[Manny98]

Bulls offense were best with Pippen on the floor over just.MJ

[Manny98]

how did MJ have far better offenses with less offensive help?

obviously, all that shit I say about Lebron's suboptimal style is true
Why were the Bulls better with only Pippen vs only MJ

Truth is that Pippens versatility and playmaking was more valuable than MJs scoring

[Roundball_Rock]

The Bulls weren't top 10 offensively without Pippen in 98' and weren't top 20 without him in 94'.

The only top 10 offense the Bulls had without Pippen being a top 2 player on the team was 88' when they were 9th of 23 teams (we can't credit 86' to MJ since they were 8th overall but much worse with MJ during his 17 games than without him) with Pippen being a rookie. Re 86', MJ missed November-February and came back for March, April (he also played 3 games in October). Look at the monthly PPG:

October: 114.5 (MJ plays 3 of 4 games)
November: 116.3
December: 110.6
January: 117.5
February: 113.3
March: 109.9 (MJ returns)
April: 108.6

[HoopsNY]

For 3 reasons:

1) The triangle offense
2) Michael Jordan's scoring ability
3) Scottie Pippen's playmaking ability

When you combine these elements, you get a top ranked offense despite having a lack of a #3 scorer or Pippen putting up 22-25 ppg on a nightly basis. The Bulls were a well oiled machine, and that didn't only boil down to MJ (as erroneously claimed by your ridiculous posts).

[3ball]

For 3 reasons:

1) The triangle offense
2) Michael Jordan's scoring ability
3) Scottie Pippen's playmaking ability

When you combine these elements, you get a top ranked offense despite having a lack of a #3 scorer or Pippen putting up 22-25 ppg on a nightly basis. The Bulls were a well oiled machine, and that didn't only boil down to MJ (as erroneously claimed by your ridiculous posts).

only mj could fit goat scoring amounts into a championship system - if he was a rampant ball-dominator, the bulls couldn't run the triangle - that offense is only elite if there's someone skilled enough to get 30 ppg in it .. and only MJ and Kobe were skilled enough

and many guys average 5 apg like pippen - 5 apg is normal and that that isn't a reason for goat team offense... so cut the bias and bullshit

ultimately, pippen averaged 16/6/5 with bad efficiency - that's nothing, so the bulls had great team offense IN SPITE of pippen's bad offense

and Jordan averaged 5 assists too, with much higher assist percentage.... so if a game has 100 total shots where Jordan takes 25 shots and Pippen takes 15, then Jordan only has 75 shots to assist on and pippen has 85...... yet they averaged equal assists, so Jordan was assisting much more often (33% more often in playoffs... aka 28 assist percentage to 21 for Pip)

so pippen wasn't the passing leader - Jordan was - he assisted 33% more often then pippen

[aceman]

only mj could fit goat scoring amounts into a championship system - if he was a rampant ball-dominator, the bulls couldn't run the triangle - that offense is only elite if there's someone skilled enough to get 30 ppg in it .. and only MJ and Kobe were skilled enough

and many guys average 5 apg like pippen - 5 apg is normal and that that isn't a reason for goat team offense... so cut the bias and bullshit

ultimately, pippen averaged 16/6/5 with bad efficiency - that's nothing, so the bulls had great team offense IN SPITE of pippen's bad offense

and Jordan averaged 5 assists too, with much higher assist percentage.... so if a game has 100 total shots where Jordan takes 25 shots and Pippen takes 15, then Jordan only has 75 shots to assist on and pippen has 85...... yet they averaged equal assists, so Jordan was assisting much more often (33% more often in playoffs... aka 28 assist percentage to 21 for Pip)

so pippen wasn't the passing leader - Jordan was - he assisted 33% more often then pippen

Pippen with 20 ppg was one of the best 2nd options in league. Toni was excellent 3rd option. You mad

[3ball]

Pippen with 20 ppg was one of the best 2nd options in league. Toni was excellent 3rd option. You mad

pippen averaged 17.6 on 40% for the entire 96-98' playoffs - thats trash

Kyrie averaged 26 on 46% in the 16' and 17' playoffs

no comparison... :facepalm:

and during the first 3-peat, Pippen almost caused losses in the 92' ECSF and 93' Finals by sucking really bad (45.9 true shooting in 93' Finals)...

and of course he sucked in the 88-90' playoffs, thus wasting uber-peak MJ .. anyone else would've win with mj those years

[aceman]

pippen averaged 17.6 on 40% for the entire 96-98' playoffs - thats trash

Kyrie averaged 26 on 46% in the 16' and 17' playoffs

no comparison... :facepalm:

and during the first 3-peat, Pippen almost caused losses in the 92' ECSF and 93' Finals by sucking really bad (45.9 true shooting in 93' Finals)...

and of course he sucked in the 88-90' playoffs, thus wasting uber-peak MJ .. anyone else would've win with mj those years

Different era - stupid to compare him to Kyrie. Relative to rest of league at time Pippen was among the very best 2nd options on offense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Different era - stupid to compare him to Kyrie. Relative to rest of league at time Pippen was among the very best 2nd options on offense.

Kyrie still has not gotten a MVP vote (remember, each voter gets 5 votes). :lol

The numbers on Pippen's impact speak for themselves. For instance, in 1994 the Bulls went from a -9 point differential without Pippen to +5 with him. What do those numbers mean? +5 is the point differential the Suns, Jazz and Spurs had that year (Rockets and Magic were +4, Knicks +7, Pacers +3.5). -9 was the point differential the 13-69 Mavericks had.

We could go on and on. It is revealing Pippen supporters frequently point to evidence of his impact--MJ stans simply bash Pippen. We don't see the corresponding data for MJ (MJ had them at 57 wins in 93' instead of 55, MJ got a 27 win team to 38 wins, 30 wins in 86' to 40 in 87', etc.).

Kyrie? His teams consistently do better without him but we are comparing him to MVP level impact. :lol


You mad

Maybe if MJ wins in Charlotte without Pippen it will help MJ fans' Pippen Derangement Syndrome?

[Roundball_Rock]

Correction on the 94' point differential numbers. I must have missed a game or entered the wrong number when I did it previously. :lol Anyway, this is why I double check to catch errors. Here are the correct numbers:

94' Bulls point differential w/out Pippen: -0.6 (4-6)
94' Bulls point differential with Pippen: +3.6 (51-21)

The one team close to -0.6 was the Hornets, who were -0.2 (41-41). 16 of 27 teams had a positive point differential, so the Bulls were 18th without Pippen.

The "Pippen" games include two games where he was injured to start the year and the 82nd game, which was a meaningless game since the Bulls were locked into the 3 seed and the Knicks the 2 seed. If you remove those games it becomes this (so a 69 game sample with a healthy Pippen in real games):

94' Bulls point differential w/out Pippen: -0.6 (4-6)
94' Bulls point differential with healthy Pippen in real games: +4.3 (50-19)

This implies peak Pippen was worth a 5 point swing in point differential.

How about 98'?

98' Bulls point differential w/out Pippen: +5.2 (26-12)
98' Bulls point differential with Pippen: +8.6 (36-8)

A smaller impact as Pippen no longer was in his peak but still a meaningful improvement. One caveat is there is only so much a team can win by. In other words, it is easier to improve +2 or 0 than it is to +5.

Even second year Pippen in 89' had an impact, albeit less.

89' Bulls point differential w/out Pippen: -0.5 (4-5)
89' Bulls point differential with Pippen: +1.7 (43-30)

These are RS numbers. There was a playoff game against Detroit where Pippen technically played--but was injured after 1 minute (which deflates the deceptive averages you see in the OP as it counts as a game played but he has a 0/0/0 line). In that game the Bulls lost by 9. If you add that to the sample of "no Pippen" games in 89' it becomes:

89' Bulls point differential w/out Pippen: -1.4 (4-6)
89' Bulls point differential with Pippen: +1.7 (43-30)

How about the corresponding numbers for MJ? Why don't we ever see those?

[Indian guy]

FWIW Pippen was a good regular season offensive player (not in the playoffs though).

Still, the kind of offensive dominance Bulls displayed in the 90's despite never having anything close to a 3rd offensive star is incomparable. Most perennial offensive juggernauts have a 3rd option. MJ truly was the GOAT offensive player.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Bulls offenses were so great with MJ, without Pippen, right? :lol

Typical MJ stan: diss Pippen, give all the credit to MJ. Pippen without MJ had the Bulls as a top 10 offense--something Mike could never do sans Pippen.

[Vino24]

No Pip?

[Roundball_Rock]

How about teasing out the impact of MJ on the team's offense?

1984 Bulls (pre-MJ): 22nd in offense (of 23), -5.2 rORtg
1985 Bulls with MJ: 11th in offense (of 23), +0.8 rORTg
1986 Bulls: 8th offense (of 23), +1.4 rORTG (MJ missed 65 games)

MJ missed 65 games in 86' so we have to break out the games with and without him.

October: 114.5 (MJ plays 3 of 4 games)
November: 116.3
December: 110.6
January: 117.5
February: 113.3
March: 109.9 (MJ returns)
April: 108.6

If we average November-February numbers (imperfect due to different # of games but gives us a decent, quick proxy), we get 114.4 PPG. That would be 6th best in the NBA--and this is with the Bulls playing the 4th slowest pace. The April and March PPG numbers would be well in the bottom half of the league. MJ was on a minutes limit but he still took 18 FGA per game and had a usage of 41.1%.

If you add the "GOAT offensive player", even for 24 minutes, that should improve the offense, right? Not what happened. They got much worse, although they improved a lot his rookie year. On to 1987.

1986 Bulls: 8th in offense (of 23), +1.4 rORTG
1987 Bulls: 12th in offense (of 23), +0.3 rORTG

So MJ comes back for a full season and the offense got worse (Woolridge left).

1993 Bulls: 2nd in offense (of 27), +4.9 rORTG
1994 Bulls: 14th in offense (of 27), -0.2 rORTG

This looks great but the Bulls offense was better when healthy. When healthy they were 8th with a rORTG of +2.2--they just sucked without Pippen.

1995 Bulls (pre-MJ): 10th in offense (of 27), +1.1 rORTG
1995 Bulls w/MJ: 5th in offense (of 27), +4.3 rORTG

So a real improvement here but 10th to 5th isn't necessarily Earth shattering (the corresponding improvement in 98' with Pippen was 13th to 4th.)

How about Pippen? He sucked on offense so let's use him as a benchmark for MJ. The improvements with MJ should>>>>improvements with a bum.

1994 Bulls w/out Pippen: 21st in offense (of 27), -2.6 rORTG
1994 Bulls with Pippen/Grant/Kukoc (71 games): 8th in offense (of 27), +2.2 rORTG

It would be better if we could isolate out just the Pippen games versus the 10 he missed, but the Backpicks guy lumped Grant and Kukoc in with him. At any rate, that is a 71 game sample size.

1997 Bulls with Pippen: 1st in offense (of 29), +7.7 rORTG
1998 Bulls w/out Pippen: 13th in offense (of 29), roughly* +1 rORtg
1998 Bulls with Pippen: 4th in offense, roughly* +6 rORTG

So again Pippen elevates the offense's real offensive rating by +5 (not +3) in season and the decline relative to 97' was -7 (not -3). So Pippen sucks on offense, but the offensive impact implied by these numbers from him exceeds MJ's. How can this be? Pippen expanded the pie for all via increased teammate efficiency; Jordan scored a lot for himself but that wasn't all additive because he slashed teammate scoring across the board with no increase in teammate efficiency (compare the teammate scoring numbers with and w/out both for 86', 95', and 98') to mitigate the volume they lost. Pippen worked the offense primarily to create opportunities for his teammates; Jordan did it for himself. It isn't surprising teammates benefited more from the facilitator.

*I say "roughly" because the 98' numbers come from a graph. The 94' numbers are specific.

[Roundball_Rock]

We don't have any full playoff game Pippen missed but we can use some as proxies of that (still a tiny sample size). In the 1989 ECF Pippen played only 1 minute of Game 6, the "migraine game", and Game 5 of the ECF in 97' where he played only 7 minutes. The Bulls offense wasn't so hot in those games, scoring 94 in 89', 74 in the 90' game. In 97' the Bulls led 18-7 when Pippen went out. They scored 82 points in the next 41 minutes (on pace for 96 points).

So 94, 74, on pace for 96 in the playoffs in these games with offensive ratings of 100.1 and 89.5 in the first two (hard to do orating for 3 1/2 quarters). In contrast, in 94' they were 5th of 16 playoff teams in offensive rating and 2nd of the 8 teams that won a series with a rating of 108.7 (despite playing the #1 defense for 7 of 10 games).


No Pip?

Not much scoring, apparently, which implies no...

[HoopsNY]

only mj could fit goat scoring amounts into a championship system - if he was a rampant ball-dominator, the bulls couldn't run the triangle - that offense is only elite if there's someone skilled enough to get 30 ppg in it .. and only MJ and Kobe were skilled enough

and many guys average 5 apg like pippen - 5 apg is normal and that that isn't a reason for goat team offense... so cut the bias and bullshit

ultimately, pippen averaged 16/6/5 with bad efficiency - that's nothing, so the bulls had great team offense IN SPITE of pippen's bad offense

and Jordan averaged 5 assists too, with much higher assist percentage.... so if a game has 100 total shots where Jordan takes 25 shots and Pippen takes 15, then Jordan only has 75 shots to assist on and pippen has 85...... yet they averaged equal assists, so Jordan was assisting much more often (33% more often in playoffs... aka 28 assist percentage to 21 for Pip)

so pippen wasn't the passing leader - Jordan was - he assisted 33% more often then pippen

I never denied Mj's playmaking ability, but your'e denying Pippen's. You asked why the Bulls were amongst the leaders in offense. To boil it down to ONLY Mj is nonsensical. Pippen had a big hand in that as well. But the biggest credit goes to Tex Winters and the triangle offense.

So how is any of that bullshit? You're behaving like Pippen was putting up 9 points on 40% shooting here, with little to no playmaking ability.

[HoopsNY]

pippen averaged 17.6 on 40% for the entire 96-98' playoffs - thats trash

Kyrie averaged 26 on 46% in the 16' and 17' playoffs

no comparison... :facepalm:

and during the first 3-peat, Pippen almost caused losses in the 92' ECSF and 93' Finals by sucking really bad (45.9 true shooting in 93' Finals)...

and of course he sucked in the 88-90' playoffs, thus wasting uber-peak MJ .. anyone else would've win with mj those years

You're doing what Roundball does. You answer responses with an entirely different topic. aceman mentioned he averaged 20 ppg and Kukoc was a viable third option. This is in response to YOUR OP about the Bulls having a #1 offense.

Bringing up what happened in the playoffs is irrelevant. The fact remains is that during the regular season, there were other contributors to Chicago's offense, and Scottie Pippen played a big hand in that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bringing up what happened in the playoffs is irrelevant. The fact remains is that during the regular season, there were other contributors to Chicago's offense, and Scottie Pippen played a big hand in that.

Which concedes 3ball's point about the playoffs being all MJ, while feigning disagreement (glad to know I live rent free in your head, though :oldlol: ) with the intellectual leader of Team Jordan.

We saw the Bulls' offenses without MJ and without Pippen in the playoffs. Here is what the record shows:

Bulls' Playoff Offensive Ranks

1985: 9th
1986: 12th
1987: 11th
1994: 5th

If you want to count 88' since Pippen was a rookie, the Bulls were 16th of 16 playoff teams in offense that year...

With just MJ, the Bulls couldn't crack the top half of playoff teams in offense a single time, despite having 20+ PPG "sidekicks" each time. :lol

Advice: pick a different talking point. None of this offensive data is favorable to "just MJ" vis-a-vis "just Pippen." Maybe it doesn't look that way in the fun house mirrors of Jordanstan but the numbers are pretty clear elsewhere.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is what MJ stans don't get because of their obsession with PPG. Pippen was able to seamlessly join the team without nuking everyone's numbers. MJ couldn't. Here is what happened in 1995 and 1998 to the top 5 scorers in 98' and the four starters plus Kerr in 95' (Rodman wasn't an option so he isn't worth including in an exercise on offense). One note: these numbers are "averages of averages" for the sake of time--so Kerr's FG % is weighted the same as Pippen's.

5 leading scorers without Jordan in 95': 69.7 PPG 11.3 GS 58.3% TS 20.7% US
5 leading scorers with Jordan in 95': 58.6 PPG 10.1 GS 59.0% TS 17.4% US

5 leading scorers without Pippen in 98': 71.8 PPG 10.6 GS 51.3% TS 22% US
5 leading scorers with Pippen in 98': 68.9 PPG 10.4 GS 54.0% TS 21.4% US

So with MJ those five scorers lose 11 PPG; with Pippen it is only 3 PPG. In game scores, with Pippen the decrease is only 0.2; with Jordan it is 1.2. Pippen raised their efficiency by 3%; MJ 1%. Jordan slashed usage by over 3%; Pippen had almost no impact on teammate usage.

Jordan's scoring isn't a "1 for 1" addition because of the hits required across the board for the rest of the team.

[HoopsNY]

Which concedes 3ball's point about the playoffs being all MJ, while feigning disagreement (glad to know I live rent free in your head, though :oldlol: ) with the intellectual leader of Team Jordan.

Don't flatter yourself. I don't dedicate my time on ISH to creating posts throwing essay write-ups to disparage one of the greatest players of all time, then throw accusations against any and everyone who disagrees with me.

I certainly don't spend countless hours posting "facts" and "analysis," only to completely ignore the responses (that are actual facts and analysis) and go off on another tangent.

Yet you're in my head "rent free"? You need a hobby bro.

[jlip]

For 3 reasons:

1) The triangle offense
2) Michael Jordan's scoring ability
3) Scottie Pippen's playmaking ability

When you combine these elements, you get a top ranked offense despite having a lack of a #3 scorer or Pippen putting up 22-25 ppg on a nightly basis. The Bulls were a well oiled machine, and that didn't only boil down to MJ (as erroneously claimed by your ridiculous posts).

Basically this. It's no coincidence that the Bulls' offense improved when the triangle was implemented, and Pippen took over as the primary facilitator. The moment these two things happened in 1991 the Bulls' immediately began to lead the league in offensive rating. As long as MJ led the team in assists, the Bulls were never a top 5 offense. Just to troll 3Ball... basically, when they decided to take the ball out of MJ's hands, and let someone else feed the rest of the team the Bulls' offense improved. :lol

Also, there is no statistical correlation (let alone causation) between MJ scoring and the Bulls having a top ranked offense. His three highest scoring seasons were '87, '88, and '90. The Bulls were ranked, 12th, 9th, and 5th in offensive rating respectively. 1990 was the first season of the triangle.

[aceman]

FWIW Pippen was a good regular season offensive player (not in the playoffs though).

Still, the kind of offensive dominance Bulls displayed in the 90's despite never having anything close to a 3rd offensive star is incomparable. Most perennial offensive juggernauts have a 3rd option. MJ truly was the GOAT offensive player.

Do ppl even look stuff up before posting opinion?
In 1996 playoffs 1st & 2nd options for bulls opponents were;
Hardaway & Chapman
Hardaway & Scott
Harper & Starks
Payton & Schrempf

Pippen & Kukoc better than any of them

[Roundball_Rock]

Do ppl even look stuff up before posting opinion?
In 1996 playoffs 1st & 2nd options for bulls opponents were;
Hardaway & Chapman
Hardaway & Scott
Harper & Starks
Payton & Schrempf

Pippen & Kukoc better than any of them

Nope, just say whatever suits their agenda. :lol He knows the offensive data too but still disses Pippen's offense. MJ offenses weren't good without Pippen (86' was good but only during the time MJ was out), even when MJ inherited the #1 offense with a historic level +8 real oRTG which fell to +1 and #13 without Pippen in 98' for about half the season.

Meanwhile, the offenses with Pippen around were consistently top 10 at minimum.

[Shooter]

No Pip?

No Chip